The Duggars and Their World: Fashion, Food, Finance, Schoolin’ and Child Rearin'

[lookeyloo]

CPS isn't taking any one of those kids away I'm thinking. Foster care is overloaded already. There doesn't seem to be any real abuse or neglect in the duggar/bates households. Can't speak to the other ones. Maybe so. Someone would have to file a report - right?

[SometimesBites]

Wait'll the Duggars get a load of THESE babies: BOOT-FLOPS!!

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_worst_shoes_on_the_fcking_planet_cowboy_sandal_boots

Edited April 20, 2016 by SometimesBites

[Churchhoney]

Wait'll the Duggars get a load of THESE babies: BOOT-FLOPS!!

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_worst_shoes_on_the_fcking_planet_cowboy_sandal_boots

 

Were those invented by a Gothardite? They're perfect, completely covering the evil overtly defrauding calf and ankle while leaving the godly and inspiring foot and toes flapping free. (of course the jeans are satanic .... )

Edited April 20, 2016 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

Wait'll the Duggars get a load of THESE babies: BOOT-FLOPS!!

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_worst_shoes_on_the_fcking_planet_cowboy_sandal_boots

This pic should have come with a warning! ;)

[Aja]

Wait'll the Duggars get a load of THESE babies: BOOT-FLOPS!!

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/the_worst_shoes_on_the_fcking_planet_cowboy_sandal_boots

I feel insanely defrauded but I can't put my finger on why.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Those feet look very similar to mine. Fat, flat and stubby. There's a reason I never had any ambition to be a foot model! I wonder who chose this person to showcase those things and why. Not that prettier feet would have made them much better, but still...

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jynnan tonnix

[Churchhoney]

Ex-Gothard kid says he first began noticing how pernicious the cult was when he started learning about polygamist Mormon extremists and Scientology. He was a lucky one who got to participate in some external stuff, such as fundie-homeschool debate, so he got access to some information (like the Jeubs). The Duggs, on the other hand, are additionally imprisoned because their parents' stupidity and complete anti-intellectualism keeps them from finding out any facts about the rest of the world that they might use as a bridge to understanding their own world, I guess.

 

https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/get-to-know-the-haro-board-qa-with-nicholas-ducote/

 

"You say in your bio that your homeschool speech and debate experience kindled your passion for teaching. What are some other ways that homeschool speech and debate positively influenced your homeschooling experience?

 

"Homeschool speech and debate taught me to think critically and gave me the tools to deprogram myself from the ATI cult. For most of my high school, debate was the primary driver of my education and I was given very little instruction in math and science. Debate tournaments, the socializing online with people I met there, and local clubs, were some of the only consistent social environments I had in high school. My parents pulled me from soccer at 15 when I had to play on a team where girls wore shorts and I would, of course, uncontrollably lust.

 

"Among the HARO board members, you have the unique experience of growing up in a family that adhered to Bill Gothard’s ATI homeschool program. Has that given you a different perspective on the work that HARO does?

 

"All of the HARO board members saw and/or experienced first-hand the issues HA/HARO discusses in the homeschooling world, but being in ATI gave me a slightly different barometer when examining abuse in our community. Some of my realizations that ATI was a cult came from learning about the polygamist Mormon sects and Scientology and the way people became trapped and abused by a system. In ATI, I witnessed a sprawling behemoth of a cult and spent time at a number of the “Training Facilities.”

 

"I also knew something was wrong with ATI and Gothard by the time I was 18, but ten years ago no one wanted to talk about that. Everyone was busy praising Gothard and ATI. Knowing those issues gave me the confidence to start HA – knowing that I had seen and learned terrible things and no one could gaslight that out of me.

 

"I tend to analyze the systems and ideologies within the homeschooling culture and movement. It was disturbing to realize how far Gothard and dangerous fundamentalist Baptist ideologies had poisoned the homeschooling world. Too often, I’m talking to someone and tell them “oh, that thing you thought was so weird is actually a teaching from Gothard” and they start realizing how much their parents might have borrowed (even unintentionally). Yet even now, with all the scandalous information on Gothard’s tenure at IBLP and the systemic cover-ups, people can still believe the same things they were taught in IBLP/ATI and think they have escaped the cult. That’s why I will keep talking about it."

[Aja]

There's that damn critical thinking again. It's no wonder The Boob and his ilk are so dead-set against it. No wonder they push blind obedience as the only "Godly" way. The second a young person learns critical thinking skills and uses them, they run like hell.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Aja

[SometimesBites]

Ex-Gothard kid says he first began noticing how pernicious the cult was when he started learning about polygamist Mormon extremists and Scientology. He was a lucky one who got to participate in some external stuff, such as fundie-homeschool debate, so he got access to some information (like the Jeubs). The Duggs, on the other hand, are additionally imprisoned because their parents' stupidity and complete anti-intellectualism keeps them from finding out any facts about the rest of the world that they might use as a bridge to understanding their own world, I guess.

 

https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/get-to-know-the-haro-board-qa-with-nicholas-ducote/

 

"You say in your bio that your homeschool speech and debate experience kindled your passion for teaching. What are some other ways that homeschool speech and debate positively influenced your homeschooling experience?

 

"Homeschool speech and debate taught me to think critically and gave me the tools to deprogram myself from the ATI cult. For most of my high school, debate was the primary driver of my education and I was given very little instruction in math and science. Debate tournaments, the socializing online with people I met there, and local clubs, were some of the only consistent social environments I had in high school. My parents pulled me from soccer at 15 when I had to play on a team where girls wore shorts and I would, of course, uncontrollably lust.

 

"Among the HARO board members, you have the unique experience of growing up in a family that adhered to Bill Gothard’s ATI homeschool program. Has that given you a different perspective on the work that HARO does?

 

"All of the HARO board members saw and/or experienced first-hand the issues HA/HARO discusses in the homeschooling world, but being in ATI gave me a slightly different barometer when examining abuse in our community. Some of my realizations that ATI was a cult came from learning about the polygamist Mormon sects and Scientology and the way people became trapped and abused by a system. In ATI, I witnessed a sprawling behemoth of a cult and spent time at a number of the “Training Facilities.”

 

"I also knew something was wrong with ATI and Gothard by the time I was 18, but ten years ago no one wanted to talk about that. Everyone was busy praising Gothard and ATI. Knowing those issues gave me the confidence to start HA – knowing that I had seen and learned terrible things and no one could gaslight that out of me.

 

"I tend to analyze the systems and ideologies within the homeschooling culture and movement. It was disturbing to realize how far Gothard and dangerous fundamentalist Baptist ideologies had poisoned the homeschooling world. Too often, I’m talking to someone and tell them “oh, that thing you thought was so weird is actually a teaching from Gothard” and they start realizing how much their parents might have borrowed (even unintentionally). Yet even now, with all the scandalous information on Gothard’s tenure at IBLP and the systemic cover-ups, people can still believe the same things they were taught in IBLP/ATI and think they have escaped the cult. That’s why I will keep talking about it."

That is an outstanding article, and the article he links to regarding the men's homeschool summit is chilling. It puts a laser focus on the true intentions of these groups, and they are every bit as repulsive and honestly terrifying as the most extreme ideals of the Taliban, al Queda, or Isis. No higher education or careers for any woman, ever. No "thwarting of the womb" (aka birth control). Complete and total male control and domination of everything. The elimination of Child Protective Services! Ever read Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale? What seemed like purely dystopian fiction when she wrote it starts to sound horrifically plausible in light of the ideas of these men--men who specifically call out Jim Bob as a shining example of father and husband, BTW.

[Churchhoney]

That is an outstanding article, and the article he links to regarding the men's homeschool summit is chilling. It puts a laser focus on the true intentions of these groups, and they are every bit as repulsive and honestly terrifying as the most extreme ideals of the Taliban, al Queda, or Isis. No higher education or careers for any woman, ever. No "thwarting of the womb" (aka birth control). Complete and total male control and domination of everything. The elimination of Child Protective Services! Ever read Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale? What seemed like purely dystopian fiction when she wrote it starts to sound horrifically plausible in light of the ideas of these men--men who specifically call out Jim Bob as a shining example of father and husband, BTW.

 

So true about the men's summit.

[sometimesy]

In some of their descriptions of the board they have 'outstanding' children including Bates and Duggs 38. Um nope. 

 

Also, in case any curious fundies have accessed this page, I would like to provide a definition of gaslighting 

 

Wikipedia: Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which a victim is manipulated into doubting his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1][2] Instances may range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim. Hello over the clothes, no big deal. 

Some expansion on the topic. 

 

http://jebrown.us/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/08/gaslighting-the-mind-game-everyone-should-know-about/

 

This seems to be the most likely of controls, besides financial control.

 

Another one that irritates me is the prophesy shit: Stay here and nothing will ever hurt you. Stay here and your life will be easy. If you leave difficult things will happen and you will have to deal with them. What they don't mention is that, sometimes what they feel is difficult is just a growing pain and can be approached differently with an open mind, it isn't because gawd is mad, or they are being punished for disobeying.  It's a natural feeling for that passage from dependent and wanting to hang on, to independent and wanting to be let go.  They get hurt staying at home as well. The freedom to make your own choices will eventually far outweigh giving your entire being over to someone else... Eventually. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by sometimesy

[pinguina]

The lack of any interests, education, outside relationships is so sad!  The lack of activities, dialogue with others, growth is criminal.  That everything outside of what the "headship" labels safe is considered irrelevant, false, and/or evil.

I read a quote in our library today - "Reading can seriously damage your ignorance." -

[MunichNark]

I actually did a bit of googling with regards to the development of clothing in general, and why women wear dresses. Seems that initially, even then, it was to keep them wimmins in their righteous place. Men got to dress in a way so they could move about, and women were restricted. Go figure.

 

Now if you want to wear dresses, go ahead, but why oh why do people choose to dress like a hideous Prairie house reject?? You CAN dress nicely with modern clothes. It doesn't make you any holier or better, it's just ridiculous

[Churchhoney]

Another ex-ATI-er with a good post at Homeschoolers Anonymous. Talks about the lingering issues people have even after they leave, when it comes to relating to people outside the cult:

 

'Why relive the past, especially when you recognize the problems with it? Isn’t it enough to acknowledge that it was wrong and move on?

 

'For a while, I thought so too. It was so easy to assume, “I’m not there anymore, so everything’s alright.” And in the process, I swept under the rug so many issues of the heart that needed to be confronted long ago. After hitting an emotional rock bottom in college, I finally realized that there was something that needed resolution. I needed a paradigm shift. It took several years before understanding just how much my time in IBLP stunted my emotional, social, and spiritual growth. Even then, there was a tendency to focus on the obvious.

 

'“A led to B? Huh, that explains everything. Welp, time to move on!”

 

'Still then, there were deeper issues that needed to be examined. In the years that followed, I discovered groups of people online who had similar childhoods. They were trying to figure out this whole life thing too and were similarly discouraged by how little support they received from “the outside.” Anything that could help them process their experiences was helpful, even if it was just a fictional story. One story in particular captured my attention in relation to social interaction, especially after it was adapted into a feature film: Lois Lowry’s 1993 book The Giver. It didn’t take long before I began to see some rather familiar elements. And in the process, I began to realize that these types of stories could be useful in communicating to others why supporting those who are struggling to process their experiences is important....

 

'..One of the toughest parts of telling my story is communicating just how insidious growing up in a place like IBLP can be as a kid. When you’re young, you have no real sense of discernment, no judgment center in your brain to help you determine how true the stuff you hear really is. It’s especially difficult when a master salesman like Bill Gothard slips in boatloads of assumptive language. When someone positions himself as an expert in a sales presentation and controls where the focus is placed, it’s all too easy to sidestep the base assumptions that inform the crux of that presentation. If you’re hooked by one of his key points, there’s a natural tendency to assume what he assumes and swallow the rest without any kind of scrutiny.

 

'Some of the most foundational assumptions that have informed the bulk of IBLP’s teachings have to do with the relationship between Christians and the rest of the world. In the mind of Gothard, the world is nothing more than a corrupting influence against which believers must shield themselves....In the IBLP world, friends were nothing more than additional corrupting influences that could pull a young person away from his or her authority structure. Imagine a world like the one in Tangled, but with more towers than Rapunzel’s. Verticality, with an emphasis on remaining within one’s “family unit,” was the order of the day.

 

'Growing up as a kid, I carried this rather adversarial mindset with me while interacting with anyone my own age. The ideals of IBLP felt so empowering that it was easy to feel superior to and more mature than everyone else. Friends were not people to encourage and be encouraged by but rather potentially negative influences with whom to avoid becoming too close. After leaving IBLP and moving to Texas, I was quick to embrace all the new relationships that awaited, but there was still that part of me that didn’t want to become too close to anyone. I’d get giddy about the prospect offeeling like I was close to someone without the actual relationship investment. I’d spend time flitting around between acquaintances in college to escape the scary process of becoming vulnerable with those with whom I needed to be vulnerable.

 

'Even today, I’ve had to guard against closing myself off to people who may initially seem different. Throughout the post-IBLP healing process, there’s a pitfall I’ve struggled to avoid: trading the feeling of superiority to others by virtue of one mindset for another feeling of superiority to others by virtue of another mindset. It all goes back to dealing with the root issues – in this case, pride – instead of focusing only on the surface.'

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/04/22/verticality-sameness-and-the-world-of-the-giver/

[louannems]

Thanks churchy, for finding and posting that. It was so insightful.

[NewDigs]

So sad.

Sadder still is that "IBLP" could be replaced by oodles of others.

Churning out people unable to function.

[ChiCricket]

Slightly OT, but this is the 2nd book (The Giver) mentioned in these forums (by ChurchHoney this time) that I'd like to read (first one being the origins of Branson, mentioned by Mollie in S02.E06: Girls Hit the Road) I had NO idea of the history of Branson.

Both books are available at my (online) library.

I'm kind of scared to read The Giver, because it's described as dystopian, and those usually scare the crap out of me and give me nightmares. But shoot, if the Duggar kids have to LIVE that life, maybe I can be brave enough to read about it. I do really feel SO sorry for children brought up in this cult...and I want to understand how and why it happens.

PS can't figure out what I'm doing wrong quote wise.

Edited April 23, 2016 by ChiCricket

[GeeGolly]

Another ex-ATI-er with a good post at Homeschoolers Anonymous. Talks about the lingering issues people have even after they leave, when it comes to relating to people outside the cult:

 

'Why relive the past, especially when you recognize the problems with it? Isn’t it enough to acknowledge that it was wrong and move on?

 

'For a while, I thought so too. It was so easy to assume, “I’m not there anymore, so everything’s alright.” And in the process, I swept under the rug so many issues of the heart that needed to be confronted long ago. After hitting an emotional rock bottom in college, I finally realized that there was something that needed resolution. I needed a paradigm shift. It took several years before understanding just how much my time in IBLP stunted my emotional, social, and spiritual growth. Even then, there was a tendency to focus on the obvious.

 

'“A led to B? Huh, that explains everything. Welp, time to move on!”

 

'Still then, there were deeper issues that needed to be examined. In the years that followed, I discovered groups of people online who had similar childhoods. They were trying to figure out this whole life thing too and were similarly discouraged by how little support they received from “the outside.” Anything that could help them process their experiences was helpful, even if it was just a fictional story. One story in particular captured my attention in relation to social interaction, especially after it was adapted into a feature film: Lois Lowry’s 1993 book The Giver. It didn’t take long before I began to see some rather familiar elements. And in the process, I began to realize that these types of stories could be useful in communicating to others why supporting those who are struggling to process their experiences is important....

 

'..One of the toughest parts of telling my story is communicating just how insidious growing up in a place like IBLP can be as a kid. When you’re young, you have no real sense of discernment, no judgment center in your brain to help you determine how true the stuff you hear really is. It’s especially difficult when a master salesman like Bill Gothard slips in boatloads of assumptive language. When someone positions himself as an expert in a sales presentation and controls where the focus is placed, it’s all too easy to sidestep the base assumptions that inform the crux of that presentation. If you’re hooked by one of his key points, there’s a natural tendency to assume what he assumes and swallow the rest without any kind of scrutiny.

 

'Some of the most foundational assumptions that have informed the bulk of IBLP’s teachings have to do with the relationship between Christians and the rest of the world. In the mind of Gothard, the world is nothing more than a corrupting influence against which believers must shield themselves....In the IBLP world, friends were nothing more than additional corrupting influences that could pull a young person away from his or her authority structure. Imagine a world like the one in Tangled, but with more towers than Rapunzel’s. Verticality, with an emphasis on remaining within one’s “family unit,” was the order of the day.

 

'Growing up as a kid, I carried this rather adversarial mindset with me while interacting with anyone my own age. The ideals of IBLP felt so empowering that it was easy to feel superior to and more mature than everyone else. Friends were not people to encourage and be encouraged by but rather potentially negative influences with whom to avoid becoming too close. After leaving IBLP and moving to Texas, I was quick to embrace all the new relationships that awaited, but there was still that part of me that didn’t want to become too close to anyone. I’d get giddy about the prospect offeeling like I was close to someone without the actual relationship investment. I’d spend time flitting around between acquaintances in college to escape the scary process of becoming vulnerable with those with whom I needed to be vulnerable.

 

'Even today, I’ve had to guard against closing myself off to people who may initially seem different. Throughout the post-IBLP healing process, there’s a pitfall I’ve struggled to avoid: trading the feeling of superiority to others by virtue of one mindset for another feeling of superiority to others by virtue of another mindset. It all goes back to dealing with the root issues – in this case, pride – instead of focusing only on the surface.'

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/04/22/verticality-sameness-and-the-world-of-the-giver/

This shows why we shake our heads so often in regards to the Duggars; these beliefs are woven into the fabric of their souls. Even folks who develop insight and are able to walk away can't totally undo what has been done. I would hazard to guess that most of ones who leave could be diagnosed with PTSD.

[Churchhoney]

Slightly OT, but this is the 2nd book (The Giver) mentioned in these forums (by ChurchHoney this time) that I'd like to read (first one being the origins of Branson, mentioned by Mollie in S02.E06: Girls Hit the Road) I had NO idea of the history of Branson.

Both books are available at my (online) library.

I'm kind of scared to read The Giver, because it's described as dystopian, and those usually scare the crap out of me and give me nightmares. But shoot, if the Duggar kids have to LIVE that life, maybe I can be brave enough to read about it. I do really feel SO sorry for children brought up in this cult...and I want to understand how and why it happens.

PS can't figure out what I'm doing wrong quote wise.

 

Don't be scared to try The Giver. It's not really the nightmare-making type of dystopian book (in my opinion, anyway). It's really subtle, which, to me anyway, reduces the nightmare-making potential -- while actually showing things in a blacker light than more nightmare-inducing books! As this guy says, it's got very interesting parallels to cult worlds like ATI and especially shows how they can subtly mold people and cast a really all-encompassing spell. Also, I think it's kind of a reflection on something else we've talked about here from time to time -- how so many cults seem to differ superficially but actually seek to constrain people in very similar ways when you look at them closely. ..... That's especially interesting to me in light of how cults like ATI/IBLP teach their followers that they're so special and set apart, even though their cherished rules and "principles" are mainly just a rehash of what every other cult has done throughout history.

[satrunrose]

 

I'm kind of scared to read The Giver, because it's described as dystopian, and those usually scare the crap out of me and give me nightmares. But shoot, if the Duggar kids have to LIVE that life, maybe I can be brave enough to read about it.

 

Seconding The Giver recommendation. It's one of my favourites and I've had nightmares from dystopian novels too (We did a unit in High School English where we read Anthem, Brave New World, 1984 and Fahrenheit 451. Oh the nightmares!). I never thought about it, but I can see the connection to ATI. The novel's world isn't a bad place to live in the way that 1984 London is, but when you learn more about what's under the perfect facade, it's bleak and incredibly sad (but not nightmare sad), which is pretty much exactly how I see the Duggars and co. I will say, though, that there's a whole series of books set in the same world and while I like the second one, Gathering Blue, I think the rest go downhill.

Edited April 23, 2016 by satrunrose

[3girlsforus]

Slightly OT, but this is the 2nd book (The Giver) mentioned in these forums (by ChurchHoney this time) that I'd like to read (first one being the origins of Branson, mentioned by Mollie in S02.E06: Girls Hit the Road) I had NO idea of the history of Branson.

Both books are available at my (online) library.

I'm kind of scared to read The Giver, because it's described as dystopian, and those usually scare the crap out of me and give me nightmares. But shoot, if the Duggar kids have to LIVE that life, maybe I can be brave enough to read about it. I do really feel SO sorry for children brought up in this cult...and I want to understand how and why it happens.

PS can't figure out what I'm doing wrong quote wise.

 

Oh The Giver is fantastic. You really should read it. It is dystopian but not in as disturbing as some of the others. 

[sometimesy]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but would those Alert boys be going to Ecuador to assist with the earthquake cleanup? 

[Sew Sumi]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but would those Alert boys be going to Ecuador to assist with the earthquake cleanup? 

Doubtful. What little I've heard of them doing has been pretty much confined to the South and lower midwest (I think they showed up in Joplin after the tornadoes, along with the Duggars and their TLC camera crew).

[becca3891]

Slightly OT, but this is the 2nd book (The Giver) mentioned in these forums (by ChurchHoney this time) that I'd like to read (first one being the origins of Branson, mentioned by Mollie in S02.E06: Girls Hit the Road) I had NO idea of the history of Branson.

Both books are available at my (online) library.

I'm kind of scared to read The Giver, because it's described as dystopian, and those usually scare the crap out of me and give me nightmares. But shoot, if the Duggar kids have to LIVE that life, maybe I can be brave enough to read about it. I do really feel SO sorry for children brought up in this cult...and I want to understand how and why it happens.

PS can't figure out what I'm doing wrong quote wise.

Let me chime in with the rest and say that The Giver is a wonderful book!

[queenanne]

I actually did a bit of googling with regards to the development of clothing in general, and why women wear dresses. Seems that initially, even then, it was to keep them wimmins in their righteous place. Men got to dress in a way so they could move about, and women were restricted. Go figure.

 

Now if you want to wear dresses, go ahead, but why oh why do people choose to dress like a hideous Prairie house reject?? You CAN dress nicely with modern clothes. It doesn't make you any holier or better, it's just ridiculous

 

That might, just might, be laziness.  Easier to find a line of clothing marked "modest" online overall, than it is to expose yourself to all the toiling, time-defrauding searches at the local mall dressing room.  (Admittedly I speak with some purpose, having accompanied my mother on Christmas shopping trips for "we are godly holy fundies", with an occasional side sashay into "I am a lady senior citizen with arthritis; where as the clothes with no buttons, zips, etc?" (not the same demographic).

[Wellfleet]

Were those invented by a Gothardite? They're perfect, completely covering the evil overtly defrauding calf and ankle while leaving the godly and inspiring foot and toes flapping free. (of course the jeans are satanic .... )

 

Bill Maher did a hilarious "New Rule" bit about this particular footwear. Absolutely hilarious. When I saw them I immediately thought "OMG, here's something the Duggars would crazy-go-nuts for!"

[sometimesy]

So it's apparently quite expensive to send a boy to Alert. Not sure about JTTH. Why not go ahead and have the kid join cadets (whatever the kids too young for military service is called). That would be free wouldn't it? Then have them join the military and they not only go for free, but make a bit of money. They can also come out of that with a useful skill like mechanic.. Instill discipline into the kids for FREE! JB$$$$$$$$ They could use their enrollment as an opportunity to preach crap about sinning. They could even become the military minister, or whatever the guy on Mash was.

No cost

Able to help in disasters

Fitness

Discipline

$

Ministry platform 

[JoanArc]

So it's apparently quite expensive to send a boy to Alert. Not sure about JTTH. Why not go ahead and have the kid join cadets (whatever the kids too young for military service is called). That would be free wouldn't it? Then have them join the military and they not only go for free, but make a bit of money. They can also come out of that with a useful skill like mechanic.. Instill discipline into the kids for FREE! JB$$$$$$$$ They could use their enrollment as an opportunity to preach crap about sinning. They could even become the military minister, or whatever the guy on Mash was.

No cost

Able to help in disasters

Fitness

Discipline

$

Ministry platform 

 

ROTC and the like would take the kids out of Jim Bob's control. They'd also likely realize what a sad group of beta males ATI is, and bolt. Plus joining the military would give them a shot at total independence.

[BitterApple]

The military would expose them to people from all cultures, races and religious backgrounds. The boys would gain confidence and job skills. They'd be earning their own money and building a resume. Boob absolutely won't allow any of his children to go further in life than he did. Josh wanted to be an attorney, JD a pilot, Josiah an accountant and Jed wanted to work in film production. None of them were allowed to go to college or get the necessary training to accomplish these goals.

Most parents want their children to outshine them, Boob and Michelle prefer to keep them ignorant and dependent.

[sometimesy]

ROTC and the like would take the kids out of Jim Bob's control. They'd also likely realize what a sad group of beta males ATI is, and bolt. Plus joining the military would give them a shot at total independence.

JB can save $$. I thought that would be enough. :(  

[louannems]

I recommend that Joy and Jinger join the Air Force. The Air Force treats females very well. I dropped out of college in the middle of my second year, and signed up and it the the best thing I ever did. Jinger could train to be a professional photographer and Joy would love the military. Jana may be too frail or fragile to take to Air Force life.

[Sew Sumi]

Doesn't the Air Force now require a college degree? 

[NewDigs]

Doesn't the Air Force now require a college degree?

I think that's what you need to enlist to pursue an officer's rank.

But they would still need either a HS diploma or GED.

Doubt the SOTDRT is much prep for the GED.

Edited April 24, 2016 by NewDigs

[3girlsforus]

I know homeschoolers who have enlisted in the military as well as those who have gotten ROTC scholarships for college. HOWEVER, they all had excellent test scores, strong course loads, and a well-documented transcript. Since the Duggars have none of that they would only be able to enlist and would need a GED. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by 3girlsforus

[Sew Sumi]

I'll have to go peruse Clown College's admission requirements to see if they required transcripts. I will assume that Joe had a GED in order to be able to attend there. That said, Clown College teaches remedial math and English courses, and with math stops around Statistics, so it's not like they need impressive transcripts to get in anyway. 

 

I knew there was a caveat with college degrees and the Air Force (and the other branches as well?). Thanks for the clarification. 

 

eta: GED scores are required for admission to Clown College, so we know that at least Joe has one. 

 

http://thecrowncollege.com/admissions/apply/

Edited April 24, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[EAG46]

Most parents want their children to outshine them, Boob and Michelle prefer to keep them ignorant and dependent.

 

That makes me sad for the kids, and angry at JimBob and Michelle.  Angrier, that is.  

[3girlsforus]

I'll have to go peruse Clown College's admission requirements to see if they required transcripts. I will assume that Joe had a GED in order to be able to attend there. That said, Clown College teaches remedial math and English courses, and with math stops around Statistics, so it's not like they need impressive transcripts to get in anyway. 

 

I knew there was a caveat with college degrees and the Air Force (and the other branches as well?). Thanks for the clarification. 

 

eta: GED scores are required for admission to Clown College, so we know that at least Joe has one. 

 

http://thecrowncollege.com/admissions/apply/

 

That is  pretty interesting application information. It looks nothing like what you'd expect. First, the vast majority of colleges have directly on their website information on how homeschoolers should apply and report their transcripts. That same vast majority have the transcript sent by the parent (or umbrella school if you use one) and that constitutes the official transcript. My kids have applied to a variety of types of colleges including a few in very strict homeschooling states with no issue at all. The number of colleges that require a GED for homeschoolers is down to just a handful and they are not elite or prestigious. I say all of this because I find if fascinating that a college like Clown, which presumably has a huge number of homeschool students apply there, doesn't even have a section about how to apply as a homeschooler but at the same time have such a predominant section on the GED. 

 

That said, I still don't think we can assume that Joe has a GED just because he went to Clown College. It's possible the Duggars put together some kind of transcript for him as part of the application.  It's not an accredited school so it's possible they just called up and said 'hey we are the Duggars and Joe wants to come' and they said yes. 

[Sew Sumi]

3girls, I know that you are a meticulous homeschooler, so it is nice to hear your thoughts on the application. 

 

See, I figured that they just mention the GED, as the homeschoolers they are likely to get are going to have that rather than a real transcript. Since AR seems to be minimally regulated in terms of testing, I don't know if a transcript could even be cobbled together for any Duggar, especially those who were primarily raised on the Wisdom Booklets. Something might be possible for the younger ones who have been on Switched on Schoolhouse since the 3rd grade? It doesn't appear that they have ever co-oped, except for music and (sporadic) Spanish lessons. And those co-ops weren't reciprocated. What on earth could Duggars teach kids in an academic setting that they couldn't learn from someone with an actual education?

 

eta: Clown is working on accreditation, so I doubt they could accept Joe just because the Duggars asked nicely. If they got caught doing that with Duggars (or the several Bateses who've attended), I think accreditation goes down the drain. 

 

What are your thoughts? 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[GeeGolly]

3girls, I know that you are a meticulous homeschooler, so it is nice to hear your thoughts on the application. 

 

See, I figured that they just mention the GED, as the homeschoolers they are likely to get are going to have that rather than a real transcript. Since AR seems to be minimally regulated in terms of testing, I don't know if a transcript could even be cobbled together for any Duggar, especially those who were primarily raised on the Wisdom Booklets. Something might be possible for the younger ones who have been on Switched on Schoolhouse since the 3rd grade? It doesn't appear that they have ever co-oped, except for music and (sporadic) Spanish lessons. And those co-ops weren't reciprocated. What on earth could Duggars teach kids in an academic setting that they couldn't learn from someone with an actual education?

 

eta: Clown is working on accreditation, so I doubt they could accept Joe just because the Duggars asked nicely. If they got caught doing that with Duggars (or the several Bateses who've attended), I think accreditation goes down the drain. 

 

What are your thoughts? 

I thought they all took grade level tests before moving on to the next grade. Wouldn't those tests be considered a homeschool transcript? And do they require placement testing and/or SATs?

[3girlsforus]

3girls, I know that you are a meticulous homeschooler, so it is nice to hear your thoughts on the application. 

 

See, I figured that they just mention the GED, as the homeschoolers they are likely to get are going to have that rather than a real transcript. Since AR seems to be minimally regulated in terms of testing, I don't know if a transcript could even be cobbled together for any Duggar, especially those who were primarily raised on the Wisdom Booklets. Something might be possible for the younger ones who have been on Switched on Schoolhouse since the 3rd grade? It doesn't appear that they have ever co-oped, except for music and (sporadic) Spanish lessons. And those co-ops weren't reciprocated. What on earth could Duggars teach kids in an academic setting that they couldn't learn from someone with an actual education?

 

eta: Clown is working on accreditation, so I doubt they could accept Joe just because the Duggars asked nicely. If they got caught doing that with Duggars (or the several Bateses who've attended), I think accreditation goes down the drain. 

 

What are your thoughts? 

 

Wow - I had no idea Clown was trying to get accredited. Do you know what kind? I know there are some accreditations that aren't really valued outside of their own circles. For example, Bob Jones University has accreditation from TRACS (Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools). This isn't a highly regarded accreditation and while it's possible for other schools to accept transfer credits and recognize degrees from TRACS accredited schools, it isn't the guarantee of a regional accreditation. Lots of Christian schools have regional accreditation but Clown doesn't seem a likely candidate. However, if they are going for regional accreditation then that would be really interesting. Maybe since their degree options are limited to mostly Biblically oriented studies (and apparently now cosmetology) maybe they can get accreditation based on their programs being sufficient for the degrees that are attained. I don't know exactly how regional accreditation works when it isn't a school that has a full gamut of degrees. I don't know if they care that they don't have extensive math and science offerings. After all someone getting a degree in Biblical Studies, Music, or Youth Ministry wouldn't need Physics or Calculus. But you would think they would at least have to have some measure in which to grant an accreditation. They don't seem to have any core curriculum that most schools require. I would think something like that would be necessary to be considered for accreditation. Again - that's just a guess. I don't really know what the check list looks like and if they are getting TRACS accreditation the check list will be very different than regional accreditation.   And yea - probably no matter what kind of accreditation they are seeking would prohibit them from just saying 'yes' to Duggars. 

 

You are probably right that they see a lot of GEDs. It's probably not a function of the oversight or lack there of in Arkansas. It's probably because they get mostly fundies who don't see the need to something other than a GED. Regardless of oversight, most homeschoolers value education. Fundies homeschool for control. I'm assuming some still value the education they do get, even if it doesn't go past high school, just because they have more of a work ethic than the Duggars but I'm sure many figure get to a certain age and then take the GED. That way the boys can move on to Clown so they can get Bible training and the girls can move on to getting married and making babies. 

 

As far as Switched-on-Schoolhouse goes, if the kids are using that then yes, they probably could put together a transcript. It isn't what I would choose but it would be enough for a basic high school education. The bigger question would be are they actually doing it? Even if they have the stuff sitting in the house it doesn't seem to me that they are actively doing much school. We know Michele is not monitoring their activities. Do they really do school work each day and work through the programs? What about the little ones? They would need someone to help guide them in their daily lessons, even if they are on the computer. I don't think anyone is doing that unless it's Jana and Jinger. 

I thought they all took grade level tests before moving on to the next grade. Wouldn't those tests be considered a homeschool transcript? And do they require placement testing and/or SATs?

 

I thought it was weird that the application for Clown didn't mention SAT/ACTs. 

[jilliannatalia]

JB can save $$. I thought that would be enough. :(  

 

No one would be there to say "Nike".

[jilliannatalia]

I thought they all took grade level tests before moving on to the next grade. Wouldn't those tests be considered a homeschool transcript? And do they require placement testing and/or SATs?

 

One problem with the system is that those administering a program really wouldn't know who actually took a test. One or two token smart kids in a family (smart is relative here, obviously) could be taking the tests for everyone in order to keep any nosy government offiicials from suggesting that home schooling wasn't actually happening.

[Sew Sumi]

We know that in AR, they are just required to TAKE annual tests. It's not required to actually PASS them. 

 

Tabitha Paine was brought in around the time Jessa started courting to be the live-in "teacher." The kids move to SOS in 3rd grade; it is not clear whether they're still just using ATI Wisdom Books up to that point (which used to be the case) or if they're supplementing with real curriculum these days. Now with the M Kids obviously a part of the "school," there are about four little girls (Jenni down to Mack and Josie) who this would directly affect. I think Mikey is 5 in June, so he's borderline as to whether they've started "formally" schooling him yet. 

 

As for Crown, I want to say they were trying for regional accreditation, but don't quote me on this. I just seem to remember reading something to that affect and being shocked, knowing how much work they'd have to do in order to be anywhere close to being accepted. Starting off with telling students that they couldn't date outside of their race. 

[Quilt Fairy]

The kids move to SOS in 3rd grade; it is not clear whether they're still just using ATI Wisdom Books up to that point (which used to be the case) or if they're supplementing with real curriculum these days.

Having looked at a couple of the Wisdom Books, I find them a confusing mess of non-sequiturs and circular reasoning with random Bible citations thrown in. I can't imagine using them to teach young children.

[Churchhoney]

 

 

That said, I still don't think we can assume that Joe has a GED just because he went to Clown College. It's possible the Duggars put together some kind of transcript for him as part of the application.  It's not an accredited school so it's possible they just called up and said 'hey we are the Duggars and Joe wants to come' and they said yes. 

 

Exactly.

 

This pair of passages -- "The high school from which you graduated and/or college you previously attended must send an official transcript directly to the Registrar’s office. This transcript must show the date of graduation, if applicable.

If you have completed the GED, the official scores must be sent directly to the Admissions Office."   -- gives the college a perfect out to do that.

 

First of all, it says "if you have a GED." So obviously no GED is required.

 

And then, when you're in an environment such as this where homeschooling is the norm rather than an uncommon situation, "the high school from which you graduated" can clearly mean "the home high school from which you graduated." The Duggars lawfully teach high school and are allowed by their state to declare that their kids have graduated from that high school. So what Joe needed was some sort of transcript mailed in from the Duggar home school. They even let everybody further off the hook with this -- "must show the date of graduation, if applicable" -- so, officially, you wouldn't even have to declare that your child had graduated from your home school, although we have evidence over the years that the Duggars do have some kind of graduation process for the kids. And they even mention online that a kid has achieved it sometimes, when they aren't too distracted by other much more meaningful and exciting stuff such as courtships, modesty panels and melting rootbeer floats.

 

Plus, of course, Joe didn't actually enroll in the college to get one of their multi-year degrees or one of their technical certificates, it appears. He went in for some kind of limited, one-year Bible course that seems to be on its own separate track outside the realm of any of their other education programs.

Wow - I had no idea Clown was trying to get accredited. Do you know what kind? I know there are some accreditations that aren't really valued outside of their own circles. For example, Bob Jones University has accreditation from TRACS (Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools).

 

 

That's the kind of accreditation Crown is trying to get. It tells you a great deal that they can't even get any group like that to accredit them.

 

That said, some of their tech programs such as auto mechanics do have quite valid and widely accepted accreditations.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

As far as Switched-on-Schoolhouse goes, if the kids are using that then yes, they probably could put together a transcript. It isn't what I would choose but it would be enough for a basic high school education. The bigger question would be are they actually doing it?

 

 

Bingo. And if a home school is acceptable under its state law, and the state law requires no accountability to the state by that home school, then there's absolutely nothing to stop a parent from simply writing out a transcript of material that a kid has supposedly mastered.

 

Heck, even some schools do this when they know perfectly well that the things on a transcript aren't actually getting accomplished! That's why we have all this accrediting of schools and colleges -- it's intended to be a way for groups of schools to self-police. Even schools know that some schools aren't getting much done. And with homeschooling there's no such self-policing attempt, so the Duggars can write whatever they want on a transcript, and I'm sure they do.

 

All that said, though, somewhere I got the impression that the particular Crown program that Joe went to isn't really a part of the college proper -- i.e., it may not even be anything that they'd include in their paperwork aimed at gaining accreditation because it's not part of any degree program, just a time-limited course of study on religion that's outside their main curriculum.

One problem with the system is that those administering a program really wouldn't know who actually took a test. One or two token smart kids in a family (smart is relative here, obviously) could be taking the tests for everyone in order to keep any nosy government offiicials from suggesting that home schooling wasn't actually happening.

 

And in Arkansas, this isn't necessary. Actually, now the tests don't even seem to be required any longer. But even when they were, the state only looked at the tests when the names had been removed from them. The point of the tests was to have some data on which to base an overall statistical estimate of how homeschoolers in the state in general were doing. The state never ever knew how any given kid or any given family was doing on the tests.

 

They returned the tests with names to the parents, so the parents could gauge their own kids' progress if they wanted to. But the government did not look at or record the test results for individual families or children.

[GeeGolly]

This isn't a slam on homeschooling, because their are some great parent-teachers out there. But it's scary there is such little oversight. So many kids are behind the start line in life anyway, to take away a means of getting ahead is wrong.

 

Education is important, damn it!

[Wellfleet]

We know that in AR, they are just required to TAKE annual tests. It's not required to actually PASS them. 

 

Tabitha Paine was brought in around the time Jessa started courting to be the live-in "teacher." The kids move to SOS in 3rd grade; it is not clear whether they're still just using ATI Wisdom Books up to that point (which used to be the case) or if they're supplementing with real curriculum these days. Now with the M Kids obviously a part of the "school," there are about four little girls (Jenni down to Mack and Josie) who this would directly affect. I think Mikey is 5 in June, so he's borderline as to whether they've started "formally" schooling him yet. 

 

As for Crown, I want to say they were trying for regional accreditation, but don't quote me on this. I just seem to remember reading something to that affect and being shocked, knowing how much work they'd have to do in order to be anywhere close to being accepted. Starting off with telling students that they couldn't date outside of their race. 

 

Wow, it truly would be astounding if Crown is actually shooting for regional accreditation. The amount of work needed would be just staggering and would, IMO, indicate a seismic shift in Crown's thinking and philosophy. I wonder if there are newbies there - in charge or as owners etc?

[3girlsforus]

Wow, it truly would be astounding if Crown is actually shooting for regional accreditation. The amount of work needed would be just staggering and would, IMO, indicate a seismic shift in Crown's thinking and philosophy. I wonder if there are newbies there - in charge or as owners etc?

 

That's what I was thinking. If they are indeed trying for regional accreditation then something major has changed there. Are any Bates/Duggars still there? I know Joe was only in a small program rather than a degree program. If there are no more Bates/Duggars there I wonder if that is a sign they are increasing their academics and changing their philosophy so that it is no longer somewhere they would let their kids go or where they could handle the academics.

[maraleia]

Seriously can't anyone who lives in their area do something to at least rescue Joy, Josiah, Joe, Jinger, Jana and even John-David so they can help their younger siblings escape from their crazy parents and their warped way of "raising" kids.