S02.E09: Vanishing Point

[Avaleigh]

5 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Well said! Last week showed great promise of beauty. But this week's episode went back to total nonsense. Westworld became total gibberish and confusion about who is real and who is a host. This detour has ruined the show. They should have stayed in the theme parks with elaborate narratives and stories, a mix of guests interacting with hosts within intriguing stories in the parks and how their experiences changed their lives in the real world.

This season of massive carnage and slaughter, immortality, and host/real life confusion is a jumbled mess of stupidity. 

I totally disagree that the show should have gone in a safe and predictable direction like this. I love the mystery of this show and I love that we learn a bit more in each episode. I also disagree with the idea that the violence has been pointless or somehow indicates stupidity on the part of the writers. To me it's logical that there would be more violence this season given the way last season ended. Why would there not be violence given what season one set us up for? 

I don't think the fact that we have to sometimes question what is and isn't real has "ruined" the show. From the very first season we've had the lingering question about who is and isn't 'real' and what it means to truly be alive/awake. In the second episode of last season we get the question 'If you can't tell, does it really matter [if someone is a human or a host]?' To me it only makes sense that the show would continue exploring those themes and ideas.

The moment where we learn that Bernard is a host was one of my favorite moments from last season, so I feel that it is only natural to wonder if there is another host who has been able to successfully pass as being human. 

This episode makes me continue to lean towards the idea that William is a hybrid host of some kind but agree that there's room for interpretation. The way that his wife was questioning reality and made a comment asking if something was even real made it seem like she knew that William had been lying to her all along about what he really is. She tells him that he's the only one who's any good at pretending. He was so good that he conned her entire family. (Interesting that William doesn't seem to have any family of his own. No mention of parents or siblings but we meet everyone from the Delos family he married into.) Like a host, William seemed to succeed at giving guests people what they want. 

William is drawn to Westworld more than any other guest. He says he belongs there. It's sort of the opposite of what Ake is going through. Ake thinks that he's in the 'wrong' world and wants to eventually escape. William is in the 'right' world but feels that his place is inside of Westworld. It's like William thinks of it as home. I'm guessing that the desire to go to Westworld is part of his makeup. They made sure that he'd always return so that he can be serviced. His settings may have been altered as well. 

Sela Ward really gave a strong performance. I could really feel the contempt she had for William. What a nice episode for her as an actress. I loved the line she had about being a rich girl who read. That being said, I had a few issues with her character's suicide. It seemed like such an extreme reaction. Why not seek a divorce? William didn't appear to be fighting her so I didn't see an indication that he would try to make her life miserable if she were to leave him. Why not take advantage of rehab in order to start building a new life? Why leave her daughter if she didn't want Emily to be hurt by William? Also, I'm not clear on whether or not she found out about what William was doing with her father. To me that should have been part of her findings from that card since the experiment with James Delos took place on the Westworld grounds. 

I think this episode was great. I'm really looking forward to the finale. 

[mjc570]

19 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I don't think the fact that we have to sometimes question what is and isn't real has "ruined" the show. From the very first season we've had the lingering question about who is and isn't 'real' and what it means to truly be alive/awake. In the second episode of last season we get the question 'If you can't tell, does it really matter [if someone is a human or a host]?' To me it only makes sense that the show would continue exploring those themes and ideas.

I totally agree; what I don't like are the various time-lines.  I shouldn't have to (and don't actually, I only differentiated between young and old MiB and assume everything else is happening contemporaneously) spend so much energy figuring our WHEN something is happening that I lose track of WHAT is happening.

[DrSpaceman]

I have no idea who is real and who is a robot/host anymore. 

I hope his "daughter" was a host, because I hate the thought of the MiB shooting his own daughter  Or anyone shooting their own daughter for that matter. 

One thing I think this episode made clear for the MiB (or maybe its Host in Black/HiB) :  he is not escaping reality by spending time in Westworld  That is his reality, his true nature.  He life in the "Real world" is what is/was a farce. 

[clack]

Not buying the central conceit of this episode : that who a person pretends to be in their fantasy life is their real self. Are the writers saying that if a person who lives their life in a kind, moral, and loving way, but who also enjoys, say, first-person shooter video games, that that person is at heart a killer, and who they are in real life is fake?

And why would William's wife kill herself after viewing William in Westworld mode? Why is Emily so horrified after doing the same? They must know that Westworld is where people go to act out violent fantasies. Why the shock and revulsion?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, clack said:

Not buying the central conceit of this episode : that who a person pretends to be in their fantasy life is their real self. Are the writers saying that if a person who lives their life in a kind, moral, and loving way, but who also enjoys, say, first-person shooter video games, that that person is at heart a killer, and who they are in real life is fake?

And why would William's wife kill herself after viewing William in Westworld mode? Why is Emily so horrified after doing the same? They must know that Westworld is where people go to act out violent fantasies. Why the shock and revulsion?

Well, it's the central conceit of the series: a place like Westworld allows people to discover truths about who they really are. I think it's not necessarily one or the other: killer or saint. Also, the kind of game is important. Being the hero in a Castle Wolfenstein is different from being the hero in a neo-Nazi uprising story.

Anyway, William admitted to Juliet that he was a faker in "real life" and who he really was was the person from Westworld. And as we know, William is a first-rate villain in Westworld: a murderer and rapist many times over. I think that finding out from your spouse of dozens of years that he really was a murderer and rapist would be a shock. When you put on top of that that he and your daughter were going to essentially have you imprisoned, and her own mental illness/addiction issues, I can see (but not condone) where Juliet opted for suicide.

[TexasGal]

11 hours ago, magdalene said:

There is no way I believe MIB is human.  And I don't care about him at all.  A main character for the entire two seasons and I think he is tedious, vile and he bores me.

I heard the end bit there in my head in Hannibal Lecter voice.

Before MiB shot everyone, they scanned him and was that supposed to indicate he was human?  (Assuming of course he's not some secret variation that fools their scanners.)

[WatchrTina]

33 minutes ago, clack said:

why would William's wife kill herself after viewing William in Westworld mode? Why is Emily so horrified after doing the same? They must know that Westworld is where people go to act out violent fantasies. Why the shock and revulsion?

If he's been inhabiting his "good guy/philanthropist" persona successfully all these years I think it WOULD come a horrible shock.  It opens to the door to "What else as he been hiding?"  Remember that this is the guy who has been overseeing the resurrection and subsequent destruction of his wive's "father" for years -- all behind he back.  Imagine if she found out about THAT.  Now I'm wondering if that last horrible scene where he let the Delos-bot go mad happened right after Juliet committed suicide.  I wonder if he was projecting his guilt about her death into rage at her awful father who, one has to admit, had a huge hand in making William what he is (what with their plotting together over the second, secret purpose of the park) and who probably set Juliet up to become the drunk-and-disturbed individual she turned out to be.  I wonder if part of Juliet's trauma is her realization that William WAS a nice guy when she met him and that it has been his dealings with her family that warped him.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Not buying the central conceit of this episode : that who a person pretends to be in their fantasy life is their real self. Are the writers saying that if a person who lives their life in a kind, moral, and loving way, but who also enjoys, say, first-person shooter video games, that that person is at heart a killer, and who they are in real life is fake?

I wouldn't necessarily take it as a statement on people in toto; but in William's case, it certainly is.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Uncle JUICE]

Looks like there's a pretty wide gap in episode assessment here, but my hot take: probably the worst episode of the series so far. I can't stand when two people share the same space and one of them basically over-talks about experiences they both shared off screen or at a different time. This sort of exposition is really difficult to pull off naturally, but it can be a necessary evil in any show due to time constraints. My problem is Westworld seems to be using these long expository speeches, from Willaim to his daughter, his daughter to William, Ford to Bernard as a substitute for telling the story, or more accurately maybe, they're OVERtelling the story, and not SHOWING enough of it. It's really fucking annoying, particularly in a show where there aren't any protagonists. They've taken Thandie Newton, the highlight of this season so far, and sidelined her for 20% of the season. Good decision. They introduce characters we don't know, and I'm not sure I should care about them...okay, so William shot Emily. I don't care about Emily, and William is basically a villain in a cast of villains. Who am I supposed to sympathize with here? This show's not that far from being really great again, but I'm afraid we've been painted into a corner. I cannot imagine a story that will be season 3 that I'll care about, or will be interesting. The multiple timeline trick in season one was neat because their convergence made narrative sense...here it's a gimmick to obfuscate the viewer. I can't think of a single reason they couldn't have told most of this story linearly, exclusive of the flashbacks for backstory which have been straight stupid save Aketcheta. Westworld, you are now on notice. 

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Changing subject -- can we talk about poor Clementine?  That girl cannot catch a break.  First she gets lobotomized, then she gets reanimated to play a role in Dolores' robot revolution, then she has to drag Bernard's butt half-way across the park single-handedly, then she one of the few 'bots that get "killed" in Dolores' attack on the Mesa (RIP Angela) and NOW she's been turned into a doomsday weapon for the humans to use against the 'bots.  That girl canNOT catch a break.

 

I think it is a testament to Angela Sarafyan that she hasn't said anything all season and I still want to take her somewhere quiet, give her a cup of tea and let her just be for a minute. Poor Clem. She looks so broken. I really hope she gets something awesome next episode or next season.

10 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

What a downer of an episode.  I am having a hard time with where the MIB narrative has gone.  In the real world, almost everyone thinks he's kind, generous, a philanthropist.  For 2 weeks a year, in an artificial world where it's encouraged to be a psychotic shit,  he's a psychotic shit.  So what?  If the one person who "sees through you" is your wife, then yeah, you have a bad relationship with your wife, but it doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong about you.

Some of these deaths better be non-permanent because 1) I want to keep watching Teddy and Maeve, and 2) there aren't going to be enough living humans or hosts for another season.

Perhaps it is a different answer to the question. People can't tell, but at the heart of it William feels nothing for his family and delights in wreaking havoc. Perhaps that does matter. It certainly mattered to his family. 

We already saw Teddy's body in a secondary location, so I am holding out hope. Maeve is the best and she had better make it in some form.

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So according to MiB's proflie, he's a Category 47B (which is apparently rare, appearing only 0.0072% of the time).  Category of human ?  Host ?

Mrs. MiB saw that she was married to a monster after watching his murderous spree through Westworld over the years -- and that's why she killed herself, I guess.

Was that one Ghost Nation host able to control Teddy -- and that's why Teddy didn't gun him down ? 
Or was that Teddy's conscience trying to assert control from his newly acquired killing ways ?
 

I was a little confused, because why kill yourself? Does she think that she won't be able to convince others? That doesn't keep her from walking away, getting a divorce and threatening him with exposure if he doesn't give her what she needs to survive. Some of what she did felt premeditated. She obviously watched him put the card up and pretended to be sleeping. Were we supposed to assume she planned to kill herself and this just gave her some closure?

 

I thought Teddy was re-asserting himself. He said he remembered everything later, which would indicate he woke up. If that is the case, he might be able to fight programming including the changes from Dolores. 

9 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

I kept expecting to find out that William had drugged his wife and staged her suicide. Guess not.

Glad to see Maeve is still with us.

...as long as Charlotte dies.

I agree. I thought that was where it was going (and it would have been consistent with what we know he feels is his real character).  I thought the water he gave her was going to be drugged. I guess its fine either way . . . as long as Charlotte dies. 

 

I am not sure if William is going to end up being a host (and I think it was intentionally ambiguous although we certainly saw the test stating he was human), but there is something still open about his daughter (Emily/Grace) being able to find him multiple times. We are missing some critical information there (teased but never explained in this episode).

[aemom]

11 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

That's was my take, too. I think that he is a human - a really awful one - who thinks that he has been turned into a host. He has definitely had some sort of psychotic break and its been a long time coming. Even when he was wearing his tux at the party and later in the bedroom with Mrs. In Black (well named), he kept grabbing his right forearm.

 

I though that was strange as well. The mind scanner was in the hats? Come on - they could do better than that.

I totally agree.  He seemd to be trying to see if he had a interface connection in his arm.  Interestingly, we have never seen a scanner confirm that Emily is human.  Still unsure, but if he did murder his own daughter, he's so far gone already, that I don't know that he can come back mentally from that.  That's a lot to live with.

 

Mind scanner in the hats?  Seriously?  Not everyone is wearing a hat in Westworld.

 

11 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And RIP Teddy. I will miss James Marsden and his glorious cheekbones.

Me too!  I have never understood why James Marsden isn't more famous.  He is the whole package - very good looking and a great actor.

 

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Was that one Ghost Nation host able to control Teddy -- and that's why Teddy didn't gun him down ? 
Or was that Teddy's conscience trying to assert control from his newly acquired killing ways ?

I was wondering the very same thing, and the answer to that really does skew whether or not Teddy chose to let him go and whether or not the Ghost nation people have more control than other hosts.

[Broderbits]

11 hours ago, Pixel said:

The Slaughterhouse Five Easter egg was a nice touch. 

I prefer the shout-out to Steinbeck's East of Eden with Ford saying "Timshel - thou mayest" referring to Free Will.

[Uncle JUICE]

12 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

I prefer the shout-out to Steinbeck's East of Eden with Ford saying "Timshel - thou mayest" referring to Free Will.

Shit like this on this show really gets annoying. As someone with an underutilized English degree I can appreciate a literary allusion as much as the next guy, but this show is a real tryhard this way. 

Forgot to mention that this show featured two of my least favorite lines in the series. Berard's delivery of "Get out of my head!" was hilarious, and it was unintentional. But the guy at the beginning of the show who was like "I forgot, you actually had to read the books, rich kids like me never had to do that" or whatever. Cool cool cool coolcoolcool. 

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

My problem is Westworld seems to be using these long expository speeches, from Willaim to his daughter, his daughter to William, Ford to Bernard as a substitute for telling the story, or more accurately maybe, they're OVERtelling the story, and not SHOWING enough of it...

...Who am I supposed to sympathize with here? This show's not that far from being really great again, but I'm afraid we've been painted into a corner. I cannot imagine a story that will be season 3 that I'll care about, or will be interesting. The multiple timeline trick in season one was neat because their convergence made narrative sense...here it's a gimmick to obfuscate the viewer. I can't think of a single reason they couldn't have told most of this story linearly, exclusive of the flashbacks for backstory which have been straight stupid save Aketcheta. Westworld, you are now on notice. 

The choice to continually mess around with timelines doesn't always serve a purpose. I understand that this is a subjective reaction but I don't think that it enhanced William's S2 storyline.

There were a lot of heavy-handed scenes in last night's episode: Ford and William in the bar, William and Juliet in her bedroom, the never-ending conversation in the park between William and Emily. We get it - William is a miserable being. This show has arguably the best cast on TV but too much of it is over-scripted. There are too few episodes when the writers let their cast shine. Last week was one of those episodes and it was brilliant. 

I'm concerned about where S3 is headed. IMO, there are sympathetic characters left (Maeve, Akecheta) and there are characters that are still enjoyable to watch (Elsie, Stubbs, Sizemore). They seem to have wrapped up a few story lines - William and Teddy - judging by last night's episode. I'm growing impatient with Bernie's story line; it is a bit too convoluted right now but I'm hoping that gets cleared up in the finale. Everything needs to condense and focus: characters, locations, time lines. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[zobot81]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Looks like there's a pretty wide gap in episode assessment here, but my hot take: probably the worst episode of the series so far. I can't stand when two people share the same space and one of them basically over-talks about experiences they both shared off screen or at a different time. This sort of exposition is really difficult to pull off naturally, but it can be a necessary evil in any show due to time constraints. My problem is Westworld seems to be using these long expository speeches, from Willaim to his daughter, his daughter to William, Ford to Bernard as a substitute for telling the story, or more accurately maybe, they're OVERtelling the story, and not SHOWING enough of it. It's really fucking annoying, particularly in a show where there aren't any protagonists. They've taken Thandie Newton, the highlight of this season so far, and sidelined her for 20% of the season. Good decision. They introduce characters we don't know, and I'm not sure I should care about them...okay, so William shot Emily. I don't care about Emily, and William is basically a villain in a cast of villains. Who am I supposed to sympathize with here? This show's not that far from being really great again, but I'm afraid we've been painted into a corner. I cannot imagine a story that will be season 3 that I'll care about, or will be interesting. The multiple timeline trick in season one was neat because their convergence made narrative sense...here it's a gimmick to obfuscate the viewer. I can't think of a single reason they couldn't have told most of this story linearly, exclusive of the flashbacks for backstory which have been straight stupid save Aketcheta. Westworld, you are now on notice. 

All of this describes my opinion of this season. It's such a bummer when you're holding out hope that these show-runners -- who very successfully and quickly gained my trust over the course of one season of television -- have basically brought me a totally different place, during the follow-up season.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER, OKAY?  The bigger you make the world, the more characters you introduce, the more TIMELINES you try to pull off simultaneously... I mean, it's tedious and it's destabilizing to the plot.  TWD killed itself on the road to many other "civilizations", and I fear that Westworld will, too.  We don't need all of this shit going on to be entertained.  PROLONGED CONFUSION IS NOT FUN.  I'm not interested in deciphering the friggin Rosetta Stone of WTF is going on in the Mesa, or in the "outside" world, or wherever the hell we're supposed be, from episode to episode. I just want a story that is interesting, and that I can also follow.  I'm left with the old feeling of, "Well, they still have the final episode to win me over, so here's hoping!"  This is a self-soothing mantra that I'm getting very sick of saying, when it comes to shows I care about.  I'd rather watch a strong season of entertainment, over a single, mind-blowing episode of reveals and cliff-hangers.  Just like, stop messing with my head and get to the GD point, would you? 

thanks byeeeeee!!

Edited June 18, 2018 by zobot81
I decided against the f-word :)

[clack]

This episode -- and maybe the show as a whole -- seems to say that our darkest impulses, even if never acted upon in real life, represent our true selves, and that charity and unselfishness are but masks we put on to fool others.

The show is explicit about this as referring not only to William, but to the guests in general. That is a radically misanthropic view of humanity.

Of course, great filmic art can be made out of such a perspective, Stanley Kubrick and at times Sam Peckinpaugh being examples. It's an unusual view for a mainstream TV show, though.

[Joimiaroxeu]

MIB may or may not be a host but he's certainly not human. I do think the Emily he killed was a host though.

We know the show is coming back so are they really going to kill off most of the key characters or do a reset? I'm biting my nails over here.

Quote

Maeve being Ford's daughter just fits.

But he made his ersatz daughter a prostitute?

Quote

I  can appreciate a literary allusion as much as the next guy, but this show is a real tryhard this way.  

I agree. IMO there's a certain air of snobbery about it that's on the verge of becoming off-putting though I appreciate the way they addressed it in this episode.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

I'm concerned about where S3 is headed. IMO, there are sympathetic characters left (Maeve, Akecheta) and there are characters that are still enjoyable to watch (Elsie, Stubbs, Sizemore). They seem to have wrapped up a few story lines - William and Teddy - judging by last night's episode. I'm growing impatient with Bernie's story line; it is a bit too convoluted right now but I'm hoping that gets cleared up in the finale. Everything needs to condense and focus: characters, locations, time lines. 

Agreed on the enjoyable characters, but to me a large part of their enjoyability is that they're just the least unbearable. They're not always talking in mysteries, they seem like genuinely human, as much as can be. I'm concerned about your last sentence, because I think that very need ended up negatively affecting a show I'm guessing we both watch, based on your user name. As much as I loved the finale of GoT S6, I think it ended up hurting S7, but it also needed to sort of straighten up its board of players. 

 

ETA: Couldn't this show have basically been the reasonably good "Humans" combined with the insanely amazing DEadwood for a couple of seasons?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Uncle JUICE

[benteen]

Happy Fafther's Day, William!

Really good episode.  William's storyline is compelling in a train wreck kind of way.  He really has lost touch completely with his senses.  Sela Ward was terrific.  I found Juliet's reaction though to be extreme.  There had to be other options.  At the very least, stay alive to help keep your daughter away from William, whom I'm pretty sure is a host.

I wish Teddy had shot Dolores but I'm glad he overcame her control over him.

Looking forward to everything converging next week.  Although I've really enjoyed this season, I still wonder how long you can really go with this scenario.

[WWfan]

If MIB is a host I wonder if the switch-a-roo happened at the gala?  Perhaps Clem killed him there and Ford had the replacement ready to go? Perhaps that was the host Ford was making in his secret lab in Season one?

Edited June 18, 2018 by WWfan

[Ellaria]

4 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Agreed on the enjoyable characters, but to me a large part of their enjoyability is that they're just the least unbearable. They're not always talking in mysteries, they seem like genuinely human, as much as can be. I'm concerned about your last sentence, because I think that very need ended up negatively affecting a show I'm guessing we both watch, based on your user name. As much as I loved the finale of GoT S6, I think it ended up hurting S7, but it also needed to sort of straighten up its board of players. 

ETA: Couldn't this show have basically been the reasonably good "Humans" combined with the insanely amazing DEadwood for a couple of seasons?

Agree: enjoyable = least unbearable and that eliminates Charlotte.

For me, however, it is more than that. Elise, Stubbs and Sizemore have shown compassion, intelligence and measures of growth. Perhaps it is because they do not have agendas and because they do not control anything. They aren't "players" in the narrative. They stand to lose (their job at minimum and possibly their life) but they don't have much to gain. They also aren't destructive forces unlike many other characters.

And yes, I watch GOT. (And I hate what they did with my namesake's character.) While I agree about the negative affects of condensing/focusing a narrative, I think we need to make a distinction about the goal. GOT did it - perhaps - because they were running to complete a story. They were in the end game. WW is not. Rather, I want something that is a bit more straight-forward for S3. Some characters have to taken off the board because their story lines may have reached their ends. Frankly,  I think that it is happening anyway since a majority of our characters are headed to the Valley Beyond/Forge/Whatever Other Name It Has.

[Avaleigh]

11 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

MIB may or may be a host but he's certainly not human. I do think the Emily he killed was a host though.

I think that was the real Emily. The only thing that gives me pause is the show didn't allow us to see what it said after she was scanned as they did with William. 

To me, if she is a host she could have easily received William's card in order to pull a Ford approved mind fuck on William. 

On the other hand, why would Emily spend any time in Rajworld. This is what tells me she's the real deal. The hosts went after her like she's a human. She narrowly escaped. True, she dodged taking the 'proof that I'm a human' test after she shot that human she had sex with, but I just assumed there was a little arrogance at work regarding her personality. 

Also, she had a better memory of things in their family than William did. Isn't that another indication that she's real?

[Notwisconsin]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

William is drawn to Westworld more than any other guest. He says he belongs there.

But William is NOT a guest. He was when we first met him as a bright young thing going on a trip with his future brother'n'law in the second episode of Season one. As the Man in Black, and the President and CEO of Delos Destinations, Inc, he's been staff there for years and years and years. We remember him doing the "analysis" schtick with Dolores in the Mesa. He does an annual pilgrimage as a guest once or twice a year, sure, but he's there as staff, as CEO, most of the time, and has been to all the other parks on countless occasions as well. Of course he belongs there! He owns the park as much as Ford does. He undoubtaedly has his own apartment in the Mesa.

[Uncle JUICE]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

While I agree about the negative affects of condensing/focusing a narrative, I think we need to make a distinction about the goal. GOT did it - perhaps - because they were running to complete a story. They were in the end game. WW is not. Rather, I want something that is a bit more straight-forward for S3. Some characters have to taken off the board because their story lines may have reached their ends. Frankly,  I think that it is happening anyway since a majority of our characters are headed to the Valley Beyond/Forge/Whatever Other Name It Has.

Excellent point on the distinction between the two. It's rather obvious once you point it out: Game of Thrones did it in season 6. This is not quite the end of season 2. It also doesn't help that we're never really sure who's dead or who's really really dead or who's being reanimated...it dramatically lowers the stakes for the viewer. Okay, so Teddy killed himself...in this timeline. He'll be around again in other scenes from some other timeline, so no big whoop. 

[nilyank]

2 hours ago, clack said:

Not buying the central conceit of this episode : that who a person pretends to be in their fantasy life is their real self. Are the writers saying that if a person who lives their life in a kind, moral, and loving way, but who also enjoys, say, first-person shooter video games, that that person is at heart a killer, and who they are in real life is fake?

And why would William's wife kill herself after viewing William in Westworld mode? Why is Emily so horrified after doing the same? They must know that Westworld is where people go to act out violent fantasies. Why the shock and revulsion?

 

I am wondering if iy would be like finding a bunch of xhild porn on someone's personal computer.  Even if they had not done anything, the fact that these vile images/acts were something they hid about themselves would be devastating. Yeah, these are robots but they look human and William took great pleasure in all his sadistic acts. 

[oompa]

MiB cutting into his arm reminded me of a very similar scene in the movie Ex Machina.

[JustCrazy]

12 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

Man.  This show really just fucks you up.  Between last week's love story, and this week's family hot mess, I'm spent.  I don't know how people that binge this show are able to cope.  I need the week in between to settle myself. 

Sela Ward is hot fire.  She did so much with her material this episode.  Poor, poor Juliet.  

MiB may have killed his own daughter!  Nuts!  So basically, sweet William was always going to be fucked up.  He turned to Westworld, his real world, to be his real self, vs. the "white hat" version of who he pretended to be in the real world.  Mind. Blown.  Ed Harris is killing me in all his scenes, and I was on the edge of my seat for all his scenes with Sela Ward. 

The hats being the scanning device to gather all the psych data (I'm assuming that's what it is) completely caught me by surprise.  I wonder how it works in Shogun and The Raj?

James Marsden is a treasure!  In such a small handful of scenes, you just feel all of Teddy's hurt and pain.  In many ways, he is more human to me that William ever was.  Also.  Fuck Delores for driving him to that end.  Fuck. Her. 

In all of these narratives, I think I care the least about what's happening with Bernard.  It just isn't holding my interest as much as some of the other stories.

I need Maeve back in the game ASAP.  

I agree, bring Maeve back ASAP.  It’s saying a lot with all these incredible performances that it feels she carries the show.

Poor, dumb Teddy.  That was rough, and silly me, I actually thought he was going to shoot Delores.

I have absolutely no idea where this is going.  I have to come here to have it explained to me.  Saw an article in Vulture where Ed Harris said he didn’t understand what was going on plot wise, either.  

Can’t believe the season is one show away from done.  I really enjoyed this season much, much more than season one.  I understand that season one was laying the groundwork for what was to come, but damn if it wasn’t hard to slog through.  So glad I stayed with it.   Next week is going to be bittersweet.

Edited June 18, 2018 by JustCrazy

[Notwisconsin]

I'll lay odds that there's another Delores, or that Delores is usually William's "Stepford Wife" when he's at the Mesa doing his CEO thing at the park rather than on walkabout. Was that her as a waitress when he and his family were at the reception?

[Ellaria]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

 It also doesn't help that we're never really sure who's dead or who's really really dead or who's being reanimated...it dramatically lowers the stakes for the viewer. Okay, so Teddy killed himself...in this timeline. He'll be around again in other scenes from some other timeline, so no big whoop. 

Good point. When I have to use real world rationale to possibly explain why a character will not be back for S3 ("James Marsden probably has a million other projects to work on") then there is an issue. It lessens impact when a character doesn't definitively die and stay dead.

8 minutes ago, JustCrazy said:

Saw an article in Vulture where Ed Harris said he didn’t understand what was going on plot wise, either.  

One more reason to love Ed Harris.

Here is a question:

Ford tells Bernie not to trust Elsie. Then, Bernie seems to tell her the truth about the Delos plan to copy every guests into a host. Did he do that to shock her and get her compliance or was that a lie? 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Notwisconsin]

14 minutes ago, JustCrazy said:

James Marsden is a treasure!  In such a small handful of scenes, you just feel all of Teddy's hurt and pain.  In many ways, he is more human to me that William ever was.  Also.  Fuck Delores for driving him to that end.  Fuck. Her. 

No. Fuck Wyatt. Ford put Wyatt in Delores' code and "he's" basically taken over. For the most part, Delores is dead.

[piequinn35]

Bernard will see Teddy right and he will pick him up, poor Teddy, :( 

How will everything fit in the finale, they are not even at the Forge, cliffhanger sucks.

I am torn if MIB and Emily is/was human or robot, if one is/was human I can accept the killing of Emily, but if both were human, that was just cruel.

[mac123x]

Looking closer at the QA guys' scanner they used on William, I don't think it proves he's a human after all.  The device shows the following text:

C4 Screen

Scanning for Restraint Ordinance

Clear

So it's checking to see if there is an explosive in the spine, which all hosts are supposed to have to keep them from leaving the park.  The thing is, we know for a fact that there is at least one host who doesn't have that explosive - Maeve.  So there's no reason that, if MIB is actually a host, his body couldn't have been built without the explosive. and thus pass as human to the QA redshirts.

[diebartdie]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

 About too many bullets to be human,

Tupac was shot 5 times in 1994 and he survived (took a few more to put him down two years later)

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

But he [Ford] made his ersatz daughter [Maeve] a prostitute?

 

Well, if you have a healthy, sex positive outlook, there is no shame in being a Madam.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I thought Teddy was re-asserting himself. He said he remembered everything later, which would indicate he woke up. If that is the case, he might be able to fight programming including the changes from Dolores. 

When a bot woke he/she/it remembers everything.  He saw how he was programmed originally and could see what have been changed by Dolores.  However, it seems like the bots still need outside tool (ie the tablet thingy) to change their behavior matrix.  Bernard needed it to remove Ford's package and Dolores needed it to change Teddy.

40 minutes ago, nilyank said:

I am wondering if iy would be like finding a bunch of xhild porn on someone's personal computer.  Even if they had not done anything, the fact that these vile images/acts were something they hid about themselves would be devastating. Yeah, these are robots but they look human and William took great pleasure in all his sadistic acts. 

She was the wife of CEO of the Westworld theme park.  She knew how people behave in the park.  The revelation should not be too surprising for her, not to the point of commiting suicide. 
At least to me, the profile was a proof of William's confession to her that he was a bot all along and she had been unknowingly married to a bot all this time.  She had been duped and manipulated by a bot for the past 25 years or so.  All the shame and guilt would drive someone to suicide.  

Edited June 18, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Well, if you have a healthy, sex positive outlook, there is no shame in being a Madam.

True but it still means he was subjecting Maeve to potential abuse and degradation by guests, especially back in the Old West days. I would think he'd have wanted better for her. But perhaps in that era there weren't many options for women that could allow them finanicial independence from a man (i.e., a husband or father.)

Quote

At least to me, the profile was a proof of William's confession to her that he was a bot all along and she had been unknowingly married to a bot all this time

That's sort of what I've been thinking too except I suspect she did know he was a bot. I also think at some point the daughter was replaced by a bot too. Neither of those idealistic fantasies turned out the way she hoped and she could no longer live with it.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[meep.meep]

7 hours ago, dr pepper said:

 

But who will turn the valve to flood the area?

It better have a donkey wheel .......

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

True but it still means he was subjecting Maeve to potential abuse and degradation by guests, especially back in the Old West days. I would think he'd have wanted better for her. But perhaps in that era there weren't many options for women that could allow them finanicial independence from a man (i.e., a husband or father.)

And here I thought within the Westworld narrative she actually had less opportunity to get abused.  As madame she was basically a matchmaker, pairing guests with the best hosts for the moment.  Meaning she could always assign other hosts to "service" potential troublemakers. 
The 1 time she picked a troublemaker in season 1 was on purpose, so that she could be brought back to the Mesa.    

[shockermolar]

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

they scanned him and was that supposed to indicate he was human?

Well, we know that Bernard is a host and yet the DNA scan didn't exclude him when he and Charlotte were in secret lab #1.  So... 

and, as long as Charlotte dies...

Edited June 18, 2018 by shockermolar
CH must die!

[Athena]

Juliet was an alcoholic and even though she probably knew most of what William did in the park, the final blow was him finally saying to her that he was never real in their world. That he was a sick and dark man. He confirmed all her suspicions of their 30 years of marriage. That he never did love her as he was never there for real. Furthermore, she even tells Emily that William has been gaslighting her for their whole marriage. She is obviously depressed; her brother was an addict too and told her who William was. She didn't believe Logan then but she was going to be put into rehab. She lacked a support network because even Emily was on William's side. She probably began to hate the park over the years and it doesn't sound like she did much other than drink so I can see why she would be suicidal. People who are depressed and emotionally abused as she was are understandably not rational or optimistic about their life. 

[WaltersHair]

Crappy way to be treating MiB this episode. If Juliet was unhappy, she should have left William. Doesn't matter if the whole world thought he was the greatest man on earth. Killing herself was just a big f-you to him and their daughter.

I hated the way the killing of Emily was shot. Wide angle, no hesitation, just BLAM.

I really liked Teddy. He turned out to be a better host than Dolores who was hiding her homicidal side, as William had been.

I want Elsie to live

And, of course, Charlotte must die. Soon. Like in a great ball of fire and fury.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

And here I thought within the Westworld narrative she actually had less opportunity to get abused.  As madame she was basically a matchmaker, pairing guests with the best hosts for the moment.  Meaning she could always assign other hosts to "service" potential troublemakers.

She would've had even less opportunity if he'd made her schoolmarm or a dressmaker.

I'm not trying to shame sex workers if they are adults exercising their own free will. I do however have a problem with the concept of madams and pimps. But basically that's what Ford was so maybe he created Maeve in his own feminized image.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, WWfan said:

If MIB is a host I wonder if the switch-a-roo happened at the gala?  Perhaps Clem killed him there and Ford had the replacement ready to go? Perhaps that was the host Ford was making in his secret lab in Season one?

Technically, MiB original flavor could also be still alive and hidden. I think the story is better if he has just lost touch with reality, but they definitely left the possibility open that he is no longer human.

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

And here I thought within the Westworld narrative she actually had less opportunity to get abused.  As madame she was basically a matchmaker, pairing guests with the best hosts for the moment.  Meaning she could always assign other hosts to "service" potential troublemakers. 
The 1 time she picked a troublemaker in season 1 was on purpose, so that she could be brought back to the Mesa.    

I agree (though I also agree with the sentiment that he was thinking of all the hosts as his children and Maeve as a particular favorite). From the scenes we saw, in her loop Maeve was happy, confident and satisfied with the life she had carved out for herself. She seemed to be subject to a lot less abuse than Dolores from the glimpses we got.

[Dame sans merci]

23 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

She would've had even less opportunity if he'd made her schoolmarm or a dressmaker.

I'm not trying to shame sex workers if they are adults exercising their own free will. I do however have a problem with the concept of madams and pimps. But basically that's what Ford was so maybe he created Maeve in his own feminized image.

Didn't we find out in 2.01 that it was Lee who reprogrammed Maeve when she moved roles, not Ford?

 

(I am finding this whole 'Maeve is my favourite host' thing from Ford a little bit retconny, to be honest)

[TobinAlbers]

1 hour ago, JustCrazy said:

  Saw an article in Vulture where Ed Harris said he didn’t understand what was going on plot wise, either.  

Which just goes to show that Harris is a damn pro! The man works with what's on the page and commits and is still knocking it out of the park. Alan Dale who played Penny's father on LOST said the same thing about LOST. He asked a director could he explain it to him and the director was like 'Alan, I don't know, either. Just play the lines' LOL.

Also it can be argued that his not knowing what's going on serves Harris' performance as  William as the character plays as if he knows what's going on in a world where Ford is the gamemaster and really William has no clue what's going on.  

It really is interesting that Dolores' two loves - Teddy and William - both had arcs of self-reflection with William going bonkers to the point of killing his daughter (or her host) and contemplating suicide and saying hell no/someone must be controlling me and Teddy seemingly going 'sane' and committing suicide as his final choice/stand against his programming. Teddy wouldn't live with what he was becoming while William was in denial and refused to accept what he was and capable of.

Also pointed out was the nice touch of the way Dolores fell to Teddy's side at the end. She literally appeared to have had a 'system malfunction' and 'does not compute' as she tried to process what just happened.

William was dropping the 'Fuck you, Fords' with Elsie dropping a 'Fuck you, Bernard'. Hee. Hope Stubbs picks Elsie up and they decide together to get the hell out of dodge.

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

She would've had even less opportunity if he'd made her schoolmarm or a dressmaker.

I'm not trying to shame sex workers if they are adults exercising their own free will. I do however have a problem with the concept of madams and pimps. But basically that's what Ford was so maybe he created Maeve in his own feminized image.

He gave her a family-friendly narrative. An idyllic life as a mother. It was after William had effed her up by killing her daughter that she was moved to the other narrative. I can’t remember whose decision that was.

At that time Ford was already putting together his final narrative, so he may have thought in less than a year, he could set Maeve free for good.

[DarkRaichu]

23 minutes ago, Dame sans merci said:

(I am finding this whole 'Maeve is my favourite host' thing from Ford a little bit retconny, to be honest)

Hmm, I got the impression that in the early days of Westworld, Arnold created (mostly) white hosts and Ford created the non-whites.  Arnold created Dolores and Teddy, plus the other bodies in his lab were white (in Teddy's flashback of his creation).  Plus the bots attending Arnold murder suicide were mostly white (IIRC). 
Ake and Maeve were Ford's creation (ie. I created you... lines).

Edited June 18, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Kid]

2 hours ago, Broderbits said:

I prefer the shout-out to Steinbeck's East of Eden with Ford saying "Timshel - thou mayest" referring to Free Will.

You caught that!!!  I caught it too!  EOE is one of my favorite books.

[aemom]

58 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Crappy way to be treating MiB this episode. If Juliet was unhappy, she should have left William. Doesn't matter if the whole world thought he was the greatest man on earth. Killing herself was just a big f-you to him and their daughter.

Sadly, if someone is actually attempting suicide, they are no longer thinking in a rational matter.  Someone who was in a rational frame of mind would have just left him as you suggest.

[Kid]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

here it's a gimmick to obfuscate the viewer. I

Thank you!!!!  

[Athena]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

He gave her a family-friendly narrative. An idyllic life as a mother. It was after William had effed her up by killing her daughter that she was moved to the other narrative. I can’t remember whose decision that was.

At that time Ford was already putting together his final narrative, so he may have thought in less than a year, he could set Maeve free for good.

There is a scene in S1 where Maeve remembers this. Ford manually calms her down and tells her he'll give her a new role. She seems alright for a moment, but then she commits suicide. She is unstable yet she was put back into the park. Ford kept her from going to cold storage and wrote her a way out.