S02.E09: Smart Power

[mamadrama]

9 hours ago, Callaphera said:

 

You've never heard of someone who lost someone in their life and they blame themselves? Even if they weren't there, there was nothing they could do, they still blame themselves? She sounds like someone who keeps repeating that she isn't too blame for her nephew's death because she does feel responsible (maybe she thinks she should have spoken up about something, maybe she should have pushed the doctor harder on her sister's behalf, maybe she thought it was her fault because prior to this she was sinful and she thought God was judging the baby instead of her). I wouldn't automatically jump to the thought that she killed a child. That's... not really something that fits with Aunt Lydia's characterization.

ETA2, son of ETA: Also, I think it's been lost that June says "I'm sorry" and Aunt Lydia follows immediately with "It wasn't my fault." I've had a variation on that conversation myself. "I'm sorry to hear about your dad." "You didn't kill him... but thanks?" Not everyone takes sympathy the same way.

 

These were my thoughts as well. Self blame is a big thing, even when it's unwarranted. We're coming up on the anniversary of my son's death. He and my husband were in the same room when my son died. I often find myself telling people that and then ending it with, "But it wasn't my husband's fault-there wasn't anything he could have done." Conversely, my husband does the opposite and sometimes tells people that he feels like it was his fault, even though he really could not have done anything to have stopped it. 

[Kuther2000]

21 hours ago, Joana said:

I don't think we've ever been properly explained, but from what I understand/guess, if a woman doesn't get pregnant after a certain amount of time, she's deemed "barren" and her husband (if he's a member of the ruling class) is entitled to a handmaid. The official stance is that men are not to blame for fertility issues, but as we saw in the previous season, a lot of people are aware that it's BS and are looking for ways around it. I'd even say it's an open secret at this point - after all, Fred himself seems to have turned a blind eye to how June got pregnant. 

It does bug me that they've never shown Commanders and Wives who have their biological children. Logically, there must be at least a few of them. 

I understand what you mean here. It was back in season 1 after Emily is reassigned. She is now the handmaiden to a much older family. The wife was gonna try to make another excuse to get Emily out of the monthly duty if I am not mistaken. This wife seems like she would have been in her childbearing years decades ago. She might have already had her own children who are adults. I hate that the show never expands on that.

It seems only in the last decade that the birth rate went to hell.  What happens in the families with the Commanders who are in their 60s and 70s who have had and raised their children? Are they forcing these commanders and their wives to take a handmaid? Then force the poor older lady to basically raise more children.

[mamadrama]

6 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

I understand what you mean here. It was back in season 1 after Emily is reassigned. She is now the handmaiden to a much older family. The wife was gonna try to make another excuse to get Emily out of the monthly duty if I am not mistaken. This wife seems like she would have been in her childbearing years decades ago. She might have already had her own children who are adults. I hate that the show never expands on that.

It seems only in the last decade that the birth rate went to hell.  What happens in the families with the Commanders who are in their 60s and 70s who have had and raised their children? Are they forcing these commanders and their wives to take a handmaid? Then force the poor older lady to basically raise more children.

Same with the Putnams. They're an "older" couple as well. I'd say late 40s/early 50s which, naturally, isn't "old" but in the scheme of the show, it seems like that could have had children before the fertility rates became a problem. Part of Serena Joy's book was about how women put children on hold for careers and such. Maybe that's meant to be the implication? That they didn't try until it was a problem? Or maybe some of those people just flat out didn't want children at all. (But now they're supposed to want one so they have to try with a Handmaid, which could explain Naomi's resentment.)

[Kuther2000]

2 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Same with the Putnams. They're an "older" couple as well. I'd say late 40s/early 50s which, naturally, isn't "old" but in the scheme of the show, it seems like that could have had children before the fertility rates became a problem. Part of Serena Joy's book was about how women put children on hold for careers and such. Maybe that's meant to be the implication? That they didn't try until it was a problem? Or maybe some of those people just flat out didn't want children at all. (But now they're supposed to want one so they have to try with a Handmaid, which could explain Naomi's resentment.)

Yea. How would a commander explain to the other commanders that he and his wife mutually agreed that they didn't want children? It's hard enough now with people who are considered ''progressive'', who tell others that they will change their mind. 

[Empress1]

11 minutes ago, Kuther2000 said:

Yea. How would a commander explain to the other commanders that he and his wife mutually agreed that they didn't want children? It's hard enough now with people who are considered ''progressive'', who tell others that they will change their mind. 

I said that last episode, that there are Commanders and wives that don't want children in this society but they can't say so because they'd probably be executed so they're stuck raising kids they don't want, which sucks for everyone - especially the kids. This is particularly true of the wives, because I'm sure the Commanders aren't expected to do anything except pat the kids on the head once in a while and tell them "mind your mother" if they get mouthy. It's not entirely socially acceptable to say you don't want kids now, and it's REALLY not socially acceptable to say you wish you'd never had them. That would be particularly true in eras where every woman was just expected to have kids (that's how you get Mad Men's Betty Draper, who probably never should have had them), and it's even more true in Gilead because they burned down America to get it, so no one in power is going to speak up against it. Naomi isn't going to be like, "Yeah, fuck motherhood. It's full of drudgery and I hate changing diapers and I wish I could go back to being able to go on vacation whenever I feel like it."

The actress who plays Naomi Putnam is 44 and looks her age so I assume the character is supposed to be that age as well. While I know there are plenty of women who have kids in their 40s (my great-grandmother had her last child in her late 40s; she thought she was starting menopause and turned out to be pregnant) and are happy about it, that's not true for all of them, and we know that she's already doing the bare minimum to care for the baby. She's probably fucking miserable. Which: good, because fuck her, but I feel terrible for the baby.

[madpsych78]

5 hours ago, GreekGeek said:

I don't think Aunt Lydia deliberately abused her nephew/godson. More likely something happened when Lydia was supposed to be watching him, like crib death, and she blamed herself. I think it makes total sense that June would reach out to her as an advocate for her baby. Babies bring out what's left of Lydia's humanity like nothing else.

Would it be more plausible for Serena Joy or for Aunt Lydia to have the redemption arc and help bring down Gilead? Aunt Lydia may be a true believer, but she also did not create Gilead and she does not seem to have the selfish vibe that Serena seems to have. The violence that Lydia commits to Handmaids does not benefit Lydia herself - it is for what she perceives to be the greater good of Gilead. If Aunt Lydia thinks that Gilead is not helping the babies that are born she may turn against it.

[babyPhat279]

So did I miss something? I thought June believed, until now, that Luke was dead. But she didn't seem that surprised that he wasn't? I mean, there definitely was a reaction, just not the one I expected.

Also, I'm surprised that no one suggested those letters were forgeries. Perhaps some of the authors had since escaped Gilead and came forward to verify? We know they are real, but I can see a lot of people being skeptical, especially in this age of fake news.

[Joana]

2 minutes ago, babyPhat279 said:

So did I miss something? I thought June believed, until now, that Luke was dead. But she didn't seem that surprised that he wasn't? I mean, there definitely was a reaction, just not the one I expected.

She knows Luke is alive. The Mexican ambassador's assistant told her that last season. 

[greekmom]

24 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Would it be more plausible for Serena Joy or for Aunt Lydia to have the redemption arc and help bring down Gilead? Aunt Lydia may be a true believer, but she also did not create Gilead and she does not seem to have the selfish vibe that Serena seems to have. The violence that Lydia commits to Handmaids does not benefit Lydia herself - it is for what she perceives to be the greater good of Gilead. If Aunt Lydia thinks that Gilead is not helping the babies that are born she may turn against it.

I could never accept a redemption from Aunt Lydia.  

[rubinia]

59 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I could never accept a redemption from Aunt Lydia.  

I would agree, although if I had to choose between her and Serena I think I'd be more pissed off by a Serena redemption arc.

[Stephanie23]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I could never accept a redemption from Aunt Lydia.  

Yes, I personally after the last few episodes am in for Serena redemption arc. She one of the pioneers of Gilead to betray him, I am totally in.

Aunt Lydia now seems much more involed in the religion fundamentalism and she  lost her old self, while old Serena from time to time does shine through.

[Empress1]

50 minutes ago, Stephanie23 said:

Yes, I personally after the last few episodes am in for Serena redemption arc. She one of the pioneers of Gilead to betray him, I am totally in.

Aunt Lydia now seems much more involed in the religion fundamentalism and she  lost her old self, while old Serena from time to time does shine through.

See, I think Aunt Lydia was probably always a religious fundamentalist, at least as an adult (and I could see her being raised that way). Something about her says "former nun," to me, although obviously I'm making that up because we don't know about her life before. I also think she truly believes that Gilead is for the good of the children and if any harm were to befall a child, I could see her doing something. I can't see Serena doing anything that doesn't benefit her directly.

Like, I don't think either Serena or Lydia is kind, but I think Lydia believes she is. There's a certain lack of selfishness I see with Lydia, even though she's actively harming many people. Serena strikes me as completely self-serving. She's miserable because SHE personally is miserable, but if she'd had her way and had any sort of power in this world, I think she'd be fine with everything that's happening. I could see her betraying Gilead in exchange for power in whatever comes next, or for immunity, but I can't see her doing it out of any sense of decency.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

My one nitpick is the total convenience of Serena making a last minute decision to go into the bar and Mark being there ready and waiting to bait her with cigarettes.  First, I can't believe she wouldn't have some sort of minder with her, or at least nearby her, at all times.  They were with her during the tour through the garden.  Second, did they have multiple people waiting for similar opportunities?  What if she went on the elevator instead?  But I liked that they played her smart enough to know from the start it wasn't an innocent conversation from just a random stranger. 

I'm also surprised she didn't have a female minder with her.  I would think the better opportunity to have the conversation like Mark did would be in a ladies' room.

As a previous poster said, I totally buy the "princess" comment from the little girl.  I also thought she looked like Elsa with the cape and gloves. 

A couple of things about this.

I think it's logical that Canada kept the allowed group small, so the Commander, Nick, and Serena seem to be the only ones allowed in.  Nick would stay with the Commander, as his guard, since he's important and she's not.  I don't see why Canada would "mind" Serena that much, they aren't Gileadeans.  They kept her busy all day, and that was enough.

The CIA guy (name?  anyway, that's what I think he was) would have looked for other opportunities if she didn't come to the bar, such as the elevator.  So that didn't bother me either. 

That cape, gloves, and little crown like hat, all in the slightly royal colors!  I totally got that kid's comment.  ;~)

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Same with the Putnams. They're an "older" couple as well. I'd say late 40s/early 50s which, naturally, isn't "old" but in the scheme of the show, it seems like that could have had children before the fertility rates became a problem. Part of Serena Joy's book was about how women put children on hold for careers and such. Maybe that's meant to be the implication? That they didn't try until it was a problem? Or maybe some of those people just flat out didn't want children at all. (But now they're supposed to want one so they have to try with a Handmaid, which could explain Naomi's resentment.)

They did elaborate on the fertility issues, a couple of times, but the one I remember most is in the episode when Serena got shot.  I just can't remember what they said exactly.  It might have also come up in the episodes where June was in the hospital giving birth to Hannah, and also in the Boston Globe when she was piecing things together, and scattered through other episodes as well.

I think the birth rates had been rapidly declining for decades, and as you say SOME of that was women putting off child bearing for careers or other reasons, but more was about pollution, and other causes.  Either way, I think it's been implied that birth rates were down for decades, then suddenly dropped even more dramatically.  Also, there were the "shredder" babies.

I agree it would be nice to have more clarification though.

[GraceK]

Lydia is an enigma that’s for sure. I also think she believes what she’s selling. I think in her mind, it would have been a much more merciful death for Janine to be stoned surrounded by her friends and die relatively quickly, than to be tortured slowly in the colonies. I think she’s one of those “for the greater good” and “the end justifies the means” types, which are always the most dangerous types of all. The true believers are always the most evil really and most dangerous because there is no reasoning with them and they will do absolutely anything with the justification of God on their side. How do you fight against that mindset? If it’s done for “good” and for the betterment of humanity, what’s a few mutilations or dead women?

Edited June 14, 2018 by GraceK

[Snewtsie]

On 6/13/2018 at 10:18 AM, Umbelina said:

I really thought

  Reveal hidden contents

Gilead only lasted a generation or two.  Three Phases of it though, each getting progressively worse for women.  The book is so unclear, it could just be decades, or be generations, but centuries?  Maybe so.  ???  https://electricliterature.com/the-epilogue-of-the-handmaids-tale-changes-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-book-82c67bc42888

 

Thank you for posting the link to that article.  A really, really good read.

[dleighg]

Has anyone figured out what the meaning of the episode title is (Smart Power)? Most of the others make sense, usually on a couple of levels.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Has anyone figured out what the meaning of the episode title is (Smart Power)? Most of the others make sense, usually on a couple of levels.

Not me!

Thanks for asking that, I've been wondering about it too.  Did I miss something?

Did they mean Canada?  That Canadians power was smart?

Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Has anyone figured out what the meaning of the episode title is (Smart Power)? Most of the others make sense, usually on a couple of levels.

I thought it might be related to the expression "smart money", which is a financial bet/prediction made by experts in the field. Serena had to decide whether it would be "smart money" for her to defect to Hawaii or to stay in Gilead, except in her case it was about power rather than money.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I thought it might be related to the expression "smart money", which is a financial bet/prediction made by experts in the field. Serena had to decide whether it would be "smart money" for her to defect to Hawaii or to stay in Gilead, except in her case it was about power rather than money.

I still think it was more about the baby.  She really has no power in Gilead.  She can mistreat Handmaids and Martha's, but not Aunts or any man, including the Guardians.

She really does think of June's baby as 'hers' even though she knows her husband is not the father.  She may detest everything else in Gilead, but she has a great need for that baby.  Which is why the writers really need to clarify just what is going on with her personal reproductive issues, if the gun shot did make it impossible for her to conceive. 

I hope they do, because that would make the most sense about her choice to not leave and move to Hawaii, where, as the CIA guy said (WHAT was his name?  ha)  they've made good progress with fertility, and among other things discovered the sperm issues.  (Whether that means whirling them around in some machine to increase potency or using fertile men as sperm donors, who knows?)  Well, that, and of course that she didn't have the time to think it over, because they were kicked out the very next morning.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I still think it was more about the baby.  She really has no power in Gilead.  She can mistreat Handmaids and Martha's, but not Aunts or any man, including the Guardians.

I think even without the baby it would be a difficult choice to leave. She may not have actual power in Gilead, but most people don't disrespect her to her face like the people in Canada. She has - or thinks she has - prestige and protection due to Fred's status. I believe that on some level, despite last week's beating, she still loves Fred. And finally, if she defected she would have to admit that her life's work and everything she had stood for was a crime against humanity. I don't think a proud and stubborn woman like Serena would be easily turned, with or without a baby.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I think even without the baby it would be a difficult choice to leave. She may not have actual power in Gilead, but most people don't disrespect her to her face like the people in Canada. She has - or thinks she has - prestige and protection due to Fred's status. I believe that on some level, despite last week's beating, she still loves Fred. And finally, if she defected she would have to admit that her life's work and everything she had stood for was a crime against humanity. I don't think a proud and stubborn woman like Serena would be easily turned, with or without a baby.

I understand what you are saying, but I still think the baby is the tipping point for her.

I don't agree that she loves Fred anymore though, I think she hates his guts.  He's not the man she married, not even close.  That Fred loved her power and intelligence, and loved having sex with her.  Current Fred refuses sex with her, and he breaks all the other Gilead rules, but not that one? 

As for her prestige and protection?  She knows that's hanging by a frayed thread, because Fred could be taken out at any time, he's only in it for the power, he doesn't give a flying fuck about the religion or the rules, he's repeated fucked handmaids outside the ceremony, he goes to Jezebel's, and if he goes down?  She goes down too.  As I said earlier, they are living in a burning house, and I think she knows that.

The CIA guy offered her power and prestige and money with the "you write it, we'll publish it" offer.  She is a successful writer, it's what she really loves, not gardening or knitting, she could spin her story to be accepted by the masses.  "My intentions were a cleaner planet, and healthy babies, and to bring God back into society, and I thought that's what I was working for.  Instead, it all backfired, the men took over and created Handmaids, and the killings began, I was helpless to stop any of that..blah blah blah...my dreams became nightmares for everyone, including me.  Others suffered much more and I'm, at least in part, responsible for that...blah blah apologies all around blah blah."

The baby though, I've know baby-crazy women before, it's an odd concept to me personally, but I kind of have to buy into it with Serena.  THAT was the one thing CIA guy couldn't promise, especially if the gunshot ended all chance of that for her.

[LBS]

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

Has anyone figured out what the meaning of the episode title is (Smart Power)? Most of the others make sense, usually on a couple of levels.

I googled it and got this article from 2009.  It may be a stretch but I like it for this episode: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2009-07-01/get-smart

"Smart power" is a term I developed in 2003 to counter the misperception that soft power alone can produce effective foreign policy. Power is one's ability to affect the behavior of others to get what one wants. There are three basic ways to do this: coercion, payment, and attraction. Hard power is the use of coercion and payment. Soft power is the ability to obtain preferred outcomes through attraction. If a state can set the agenda for others or shape their preferences, it can save a lot on carrots and sticks. But rarely can it totally replace either. Thus the need for smart strategies that combine the tools of both hard and soft power."

And then I went down the rabbit hole and found this wiki article:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_power

[Stephanie23]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I understand what you are saying, but I still think the baby is the tipping point for her.

I don't agree that she loves Fred anymore though, I think she hates his guts.  He's not the man she married, not even close.  That Fred loved her power and intelligence, and loved having sex with her.  Current Fred refuses sex with her, and he breaks all the other Gilead rules, but not that one? 

As for her prestige and protection?  She knows that's hanging by a frayed thread, because Fred could be taken out at any time, he's only in it for the power, he doesn't give a flying fuck about the religion or the rules, he's repeated fucked handmaids outside the ceremony, he goes to Jezebel's, and if he goes down?  She goes down too.  As I said earlier, they are living in a burning house, and I think she knows that.

The CIA guy offered her power and prestige and money with the "you write it, we'll publish it" offer.  She is a successful writer, it's what she really loves, not gardening or knitting, she could spin her story to be accepted by the masses.  "My intentions were a cleaner planet, and healthy babies, and to bring God back into society, and I thought that's what I was working for.  Instead, it all backfired, the men took over and created Handmaids, and the killings began, I was helpless to stop any of that..blah blah blah...my dreams became nightmares for everyone, including me.  Others suffered much more and I'm, at least in part, responsible for that...blah blah apologies all around blah blah."

The baby though, I've know baby-crazy women before, it's an odd concept to me personally, but I kind of have to buy into it with Serena.  THAT was the one thing CIA guy couldn't promise, especially if the gunshot ended all chance of that for her.

Yeah, I think her love towards him has ended and not neceserly after the beating, but perhaps even before.

The only thing that is making her stay in Gilead is "her" baby and her pride. She can't even accept that she was wrong to herself, barley to someone else. And the  thing that will push her over the edge in this season is if she doesn't get the baby, then I think she'll try to run to Canada or the rest of free America; because she is more alone in Gilead then anyone else, she literally has no one except her now abusive husband (and most of that misery is completely deserved.)

Edited June 14, 2018 by Stephanie23

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

CIA guy said (WHAT was his name? 

His name is Mark.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

His name is Mark.

Thank you!  Yes, Mark Tuello, played by Sam Jaeger.  I don't even find him listed as a cast member on the show's IMDb or his own.  I was  hoping to sneak a peak and see if he'll be in other episodes, but they don't even show this one. 

[Stephanie23]

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Thank you!  Yes, Mark Tuello, played by Sam Jaeger.  I don't even find him listed as a cast member on the show's IMDb or his own.  I was  hoping to sneak a peak and see if he'll be in other episodes, but they don't even show this one. 

Spoiler

I read that the producers said he won't return this season, maybe in the next.

[AnswersWanted]

11 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I hope to see him again but I don’t want them to have an affair. He’s too good for her, and I don’t want her to be happy.

 

I actually would love a run-in with them with her trying that sort of act on him and it turns out that he’s gay, that would make my heart so happy.

Why is it that this season a lot of the extras and one time walk on’s are way more interesting and engaging and seem to be much better actors than a lot of the leads?

Does the show not realize that or do they just not care? I just don’t get it myself. 

Imagine if the guy playing Mark was the one playing Nick? That would turn the whole show around, IMO.

[Ms Blue Jay]

The ending song was "Consideration" by Rihanna and SZA and I was sooooooooo happy to hear it.  And honestly proud, as a huge Rihanna fan, - that song wasn't even a single and this amazing album was snubbed by the Grammys.

All the Toronto scenes were where I work everyday, where I walk around all of the time - that was awesome.  Presented in a much nicer way than this show normally presents Ontario ;)

@Umbelina, The nice things you say about Canada are very touching ;)

Serena:  So far all of you've offered me is treason and coconuts.
(Me imitating the hot Parenthood guy):  Yeah these coconuts.  Hahaha

Edited June 15, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:57 PM, AnswersWanted said:

Absolutely she is.

And I sincerely hope that she will be. It’s the least she deserves. 

 

On 6/13/2018 at 3:55 PM, Trillian said:

Ok, that last one was really nit picky.  The episode got off to a bad start with me when I realized that the Waterfords were repeatedly driving up the same street en route to their hotel  (now we’re north of Bloor Street.  Oh.  Now we’re south of Bloor going northbound.  Oh look, now we’re even further south of Bloor still going northbound.)  I’ve said before that recognizing the shooting locations is a bit of a distraction for me but this one drove me nuts since it was actually supposed to be Toronto this time.  

The long stretch with the formal car ride was shot overhead on University street, which is a beautiful street that famously looks like it should always have those kind of official government rides filmed on it.

The stretch where Serena is staring out the window is definitely King Street.  You can see Roy Thomson Hall and other landmarks of the Financial and Theatre Districts.

There was also Pearson Airport stuff.

I had a cousin come in from London and she tried to smoke at a Toronto bar.  Until her Canadian born mother was like You can't DO that here THIS IS CANADA!!  LOL

Edited June 14, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[kieyra]

Briefly: I was happy to see Luke finally stand up and get to be a three-dimesional human being. 

(Not least because the Nick-fawning on Reddit makes me batty.)

I’ve been vocally not a fan of either character, but hoped that Luke’s doubling down on passivity this season meant a blow-up would eventually happen, and he had his moment. It was understated, but many things on this show are.

Edited June 14, 2018 by kieyra

[Ms Blue Jay]

Pic 1:  Here's University.

Pic 2:  Here's Roy Thomson Hall, which is Simcoe and Wellington.  The glass hexagon building on the left.

Here's its Wikipedia page:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Thomson_Hall
I don't know why people keep mentioning Bloor Street and Yorkville.  I'm sorry, but I lived there for 8 years. That just isn't where this was filmed.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Lady Calypso]

I actually loved this episode because we got more on Serena. I can't say I buy that she'll be redeemed by the end of the season, but I think they're making good efforts into showing that Serena is changing this season. It may be unsuccessful, but I gotta admit that they got me believing that Serena isn't far gone as she was in season 1. She still absolutely needs to be punished for her crimes, there's no doubt about that. She had a hand in all of it, and it was satisfying for her to get hit with the hard truth that she created the worst kind of society to live in when she took a look at the freedom in Canada, followed by Joel from Parenthood telling her off. She got smacked down at every opportunity, and the Canadian and temporary American officials made it clear that they did not approve of Gilead, so she got to see how Gilead is pretty much the only place doing the extremities here, and it's reflecting badly on them.

Serena won't change quickly, but I think the show does want to give her some redemption, even though I can't see her be fully redeemed. They keep showing her actually feeling for June, even when she's figuratively smacking her in the face with harsh words and choosing the wrong path consistently. Again, whether the possible redemption works or not is up to the individual viewer. But I can't deny that they aren't trying to humanize Serena.

I don't think I'd want a redemption from Serena, nor from Aunt Lydia, but I also see the show giving them more complex layers than just pure evil. We know that they'll also never be truly good either. So what's the line to be drawn for both women, who have done unspeakable things for society in Gilead, but also who suffer under those exact perimeters because of their sex? 

Plus, we got a break from every scene of June's Closeup Emmy Face. We only got it minimally here. I agree with every single comment talking about June's facial expressions losing impact. You can't have her continuously switching from defeated to determined in every other episode. You can't have her Emmy Pleading Face take up minutes of screentime without it losing its luster. It's actually annoying me more, which is why I appreciate Yvonne getting to take the forefront this episode with the silent facial acting. 

That being said, the scene leading up to the last shot, I thought Elizabeth Moss did a good job at showing June's glee at hearing about her husband and Moira. It makes it far more impactful in terms of revealing her true fate with Nick, as in there's no chance, while Luke's alive, that she'll ever truly be with Nick. 

Nick's just boring. I feel bad for Eden because she's been forced to think that being married is all that matters, but she's really grating on my nerves. I just want to tell her to give up because Nick will never love her romantically like she's been brainwashed to think. It's just pathetic to watch. 

Luke's confrontation with Fred was kind of underwhelming. The actor didn't sell the moment for me, as he was seeming to only half struggle from the guards. And Luke's conversation with Nick was dull because the actors are dull. I did chuckle at Nick lying about the parentage of June's baby, because he knew Luke would deck him on the spot if he found out Nick slept with June. 

I will say that Mark definitely planted the seeds for the reveal that Serena is, in fact, fertile. Sure, she got shot in her lower abdomen which could have impacted her ability to have kids, which is why I see one of two storylines coming as the big cliffhanger for the finale or into next season: Serena does find out, somehow, that she HAD been fertile but her chances of getting pregnant, though low, are not improbable; or, the more likely twist since this is still TV, Serena sleeps with Mark at some point (or some other man) and gets pregnant. He could come down to Gilead, and I think Mark/Serena had some sort of chemistry there. I guess it doesn't help that Yvonne looks a lot like Sam Jaeger's previous TV wife, Erika Christensen.

I love that Canada kicked out the Waterfords after Luke, Erin, and Moira uploaded the letters. Good on them for doing that, and it outs Gilead to the world.

Also, I can't reiterate enough how I love that Gilead-types are the minority, not the majority, of the world. I thought the show would have so many other countries take up similar methods like Gilead. It gives hope that when Gilead eventually goes down, there's still hope for the women to lead better lives. 

[notcreative enough]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:10 AM, Brn2bwild said:

Moira needs more to do, and Samira Wiley needs her own show already.  I didn't get that last moment where they were singing "America the Beautiful" and Moira started sobbing when she saw Luke walk away.  What tragedy was she realizing that she didn't realize before?

This is 4 pages deep already so someone might have already said this. Samira was in s comedy on YouTube red or whatever it is. The show is Ryan Hansen solves crimes. I thought she was great in it.

O died when the woman handed SJ her itinerary and it was a bunch of pictures. Girl you did this to yourself. I love how this new world keeps smacking her in the face with how much she really fucked herself.

The awkward moment when your husband meets your boyfriend. Glad the letters got out.

I kinda feel bad for Eden. She was brainwashed into believing this perfect life would happen and she gets a husband that doesn't want her. I wish Nick would just tell her he's uncomfortable sleeping with a 16 year old girl or something so that she doesn't go all crazy on him. She is totally going to hook up with the dick head guard right. He seems smitten and she wants attention. 

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I actually loved this episode because we got more on Serena. I can't say I buy that she'll be redeemed by the end of the season, but I think they're making good efforts into showing that Serena is changing this season. It may be unsuccessful, but I gotta admit that they got me believing that Serena isn't far gone as she was in season 1. She still absolutely needs to be punished for her crimes, there's no doubt about that. She had a hand in all of it, and it was satisfying for her to get hit with the hard truth that she created the worst kind of society to live in when she took a look at the freedom in Canada, followed by Joel from Parenthood telling her off. She got smacked down at every opportunity, and the Canadian and temporary American officials made it clear that they did not approve of Gilead, so she got to see how Gilead is pretty much the only place doing the extremities here, and it's reflecting badly on them.

Serena won't change quickly, but I think the show does want to give her some redemption, even though I can't see her be fully redeemed. They keep showing her actually feeling for June, even when she's figuratively smacking her in the face with harsh words and choosing the wrong path consistently. Again, whether the possible redemption works or not is up to the individual viewer. But I can't deny that they aren't trying to humanize Serena.

I don't think I'd want a redemption from Serena, nor from Aunt Lydia, but I also see the show giving them more complex layers than just pure evil. We know that they'll also never be truly good either. So what's the line to be drawn for both women, who have done unspeakable things for society in Gilead, but also who suffer under those exact perimeters because of their sex? 

 

 

THIS is why I would be okay with SJ hanging around for a while-not because I particularly like her or agree with anything she's done, etc. but because making her a complex character is just really interesting from a creative perspective. These little moments of humanity mixed in with moments of complete awfulness from her is intriguing. In real life people are all kinds of shades of gray and watching these moments unfold is riveting to me. I like learning about the bad guys' pasts, getting a sense of what might have made them this way, understanding their sometimes messed up moral code, etc. I feel like that, in this case, the characterization of some of the "villainous" women is better than the "good" ones. I want to see more of Aunt Lydia, for instance, and I find myself looking forward more to her scenes than June's. 

[BellyLaughter]

21 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I actually loved this episode because we got more on Serena. I can't say I buy that she'll be redeemed by the end of the season, but I think they're making good efforts into showing that Serena is changing this season. It may be unsuccessful, but I gotta admit that they got me believing that Serena isn't far gone as she was in season 1. She still absolutely needs to be punished for her crimes, there's no doubt about that. She had a hand in all of it, and it was satisfying for her to get hit with the hard truth that she created the worst kind of society to live in when she took a look at the freedom in Canada, followed by Joel from Parenthood telling her off. She got smacked down at every opportunity, and the Canadian and temporary American officials made it clear that they did not approve of Gilead, so she got to see how Gilead is pretty much the only place doing the extremities here, and it's reflecting badly on them.

Serena won't change quickly, but I think the show does want to give her some redemption, even though I can't see her be fully redeemed. They keep showing her actually feeling for June, even when she's figuratively smacking her in the face with harsh words and choosing the wrong path consistently. Again, whether the possible redemption works or not is up to the individual viewer. But I can't deny that they aren't trying to humanize Serena.

I don't think I'd want a redemption from Serena, nor from Aunt Lydia, but I also see the show giving them more complex layers than just pure evil. We know that they'll also never be truly good either. So what's the line to be drawn for both women, who have done unspeakable things for society in Gilead, but also who suffer under those exact perimeters because of their sex? 

Plus, we got a break from every scene of June's Closeup Emmy Face. We only got it minimally here. I agree with every single comment talking about June's facial expressions losing impact. You can't have her continuously switching from defeated to determined in every other episode. You can't have her Emmy Pleading Face take up minutes of screentime without it losing its luster. It's actually annoying me more, which is why I appreciate Yvonne getting to take the forefront this episode with the silent facial acting. 

That being said, the scene leading up to the last shot, I thought Elizabeth Moss did a good job at showing June's glee at hearing about her husband and Moira. It makes it far more impactful in terms of revealing her true fate with Nick, as in there's no chance, while Luke's alive, that she'll ever truly be with Nick. 

Nick's just boring. I feel bad for Eden because she's been forced to think that being married is all that matters, but she's really grating on my nerves. I just want to tell her to give up because Nick will never love her romantically like she's been brainwashed to think. It's just pathetic to watch. 

Luke's confrontation with Fred was kind of underwhelming. The actor didn't sell the moment for me, as he was seeming to only half struggle from the guards. And Luke's conversation with Nick was dull because the actors are dull. I did chuckle at Nick lying about the parentage of June's baby, because he knew Luke would deck him on the spot if he found out Nick slept with June. 

I will say that Mark definitely planted the seeds for the reveal that Serena is, in fact, fertile. Sure, she got shot in her lower abdomen which could have impacted her ability to have kids, which is why I see one of two storylines coming as the big cliffhanger for the finale or into next season: Serena does find out, somehow, that she HAD been fertile but her chances of getting pregnant, though low, are not improbable; or, the more likely twist since this is still TV, Serena sleeps with Mark at some point (or some other man) and gets pregnant. He could come down to Gilead, and I think Mark/Serena had some sort of chemistry there. I guess it doesn't help that Yvonne looks a lot like Sam Jaeger's previous TV wife, Erika Christensen.

I love that Canada kicked out the Waterfords after Luke, Erin, and Moira uploaded the letters. Good on them for doing that, and it outs Gilead to the world.

Also, I can't reiterate enough how I love that Gilead-types are the minority, not the majority, of the world. I thought the show would have so many other countries take up similar methods like Gilead. It gives hope that when Gilead eventually goes down, there's still hope for the women to lead better lives. 

Yvonne Strahovski is the star of this show....she won't be getting the Emmy but she should....no matter how very much I despise Serena Joy.  Her performance is incredible.

My favourite part of the episode was Mark pointing out to Serena that they now believe that the infertility problem is a male issue....not female.  That's a neat little hand grenade that got lobbed her way....considering she already knows Fred is firing blanks...

Edited June 15, 2018 by BellyLaughter

[DrSpaceman]

Nick is an ass for the way he treats his wife.  I know its a bad situation, but its not her fault.  He could be nice to her at least.  He kind of redeemed himself with his meeting with Luke at least.

This was the first confirmation of what I suspected and seemed implied but was never stated explicitly on the show, which is Gilead did not take over the whole country of the US.  I have been wondering, how big is Gilead?  How much of the former US did they take over? 

I couldn't get past the thought of "tourism" to Gilead.  What on earth would anyone travel to Gilead to see?  I keep trying to think of a snappy tourism tagline, can't come up with one.

And so its not the women that are the problem for the infertility, so basically Gilead is just using it as a big excuse for male dominance and a power play.  If they really wanted to "fix" things they'd make male handmaids and put the women in charge based on this information. 

I seriously doubt they were going to give any serious consideration to returning illegal immigrants to Gilead.  I think that was wishful thinking on his part. 

Would still love to see Serena leave Gilead for pretty much anywhere.  Still hoping she does this with June and the baby once born. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think I'd want a redemption from Serena, nor from Aunt Lydia, but I also see the show giving them more complex layers than just pure evil. We know that they'll also never be truly good either. So what's the line to be drawn for both women, who have done unspeakable things for society in Gilead, but also who suffer under those exact perimeters because of their sex?

 

51 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

THIS is why I would be okay with SJ hanging around for a while-not because I particularly like her or agree with anything she's done, etc. but because making her a complex character is just really interesting from a creative perspective. These little moments of humanity mixed in with moments of complete awfulness from her is intriguing. In real life people are all kinds of shades of gray and watching these moments unfold is riveting to me. I like learning about the bad guys' pasts, getting a sense of what might have made them this way, understanding their sometimes messed up moral code, etc. I feel like that, in this case, the characterization of some of the "villainous" women is better than the "good" ones. I want to see more of Aunt Lydia, for instance, and I find myself looking forward more to her scenes than June's. 

The best villains are the complex ones. Monsters are just monsters. Nothing to understand about them except that they're evil - they aren't human so there's no insight into humankind. I do find Serena Joy more interesting than June, at least this season, and I'd like to see a whole lot more about Lydia, which I assume is coming up with that "it wasn't my fault" line.

For all that this show has been riveting, and I actually like Elizabeth Moss, the character of June hasn't really connected with me. Her circumstances, sure. Moira connected with me from the start (but then there's something about Samira that just shines). I am actually kind of interested in Rita, for all that we don't see her much.

[secnarf]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:19 AM, gesundheit said:

Aunt Lydia was an odd audience for June's bit about someone who abuses a woman would abuse a child. Lydia abuses women all time, for the exact kind of reason Fred beat Serena. I'd think Lydia would approve.

But Lydia doesn't view it as "abuse". She is "saving" them. Besides, Lydia is the best person to appeal to for protection of the baby.

Her "It wasn't my fault" struck me as her trying to convince/remind herself that she was not responsible. Also, since June had just asked Lydia to be the child's "godparent" and protect the baby, I wondered if she was trying to assure June that just because her previous godchild died, it had nothing to do with her (Lydia) and it doesn't have anything to do with how well she will protect June's child.

Loved the looks on Serena's and Nick's faces when they saw Luke's poster of his family. Also loved that last scene with June and Nick - that was the most I've ever liked Nick, and it was the first time I could believe that he really loves her.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, BellyLaughter said:

My favourite part of the episode was Mark pointing out to Serena that they now believe that the infertility problem is a male issue....not female.  That's a neat little hand grenade that got lobbed her way....considering she already knows Fred is firing blanks...

I don't understand why it's taken them so long to figure out it's the men who are having the fertility problems.  You'd think that would be pretty easy to test, measure and determine, not something that would take years.  Considering the fertility crisis was something building up for a while, there would be tons of records from fertility clinics treating couples and finding again and again that it was the men who were having the problem. 

58 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

I couldn't get past the thought of "tourism" to Gilead.  What on earth would anyone travel to Gilead to see?  I keep trying to think of a snappy tourism tagline, can't come up with one.

It could be like Amish tourism - people like going to "Amish country" to see how they live the simple life, buy cheese, get some nice handcrafted furniture, etc.  Of course, the Amish tour wouldn't include the random bodies hanging in the front yards, blood stained sidewalks by the river, or the opportunity to point at some woman in a red dress and white wing hat and say, "oh look honey, there's one of those girls who gets raped every month.  Let's get a picture with her!"

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman said:

This was the first confirmation of what I suspected and seemed implied but was never stated explicitly on the show, which is Gilead did not take over the whole country of the US.  I have been wondering, how big is Gilead?  How much of the former US did they take over? 

How so?  What did I miss?

5 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I don't understand why it's taken them so long to figure out it's the men who are having the fertility problems.  You'd think that would be pretty easy to test, measure and determine, not something that would take years.  Considering the fertility crisis was something building up for a while, there would be tons of records from fertility clinics treating couples and finding again and again that it was the men who were having the problem. 

Denial?  Maybe that's why the men that set up Gilead as it is killed most of the doctors first?

That one male doctor who offered to impregnate June knew, "most of them are shooting blanks" or whatever it was he said about the Commanders.  That's not something the men who designed Gilead would want known.

[julia1130]

Quote

Also, since June had just asked Lydia to be the child's "godparent" and protect the baby, I wondered if she was trying to assure June that just because her previous godchild died, it had nothing to do with her (Lydia) and it doesn't have anything to do with how well she will protect June's child.

This was my take-away as well. I never got the impression that Lydia had anything to do with the baby’s death. Only that she was stumbling through a very unexpected and somewhat uncomfortable conversation. 

Quote

Fred simultenously seems to be both the most powerful figure in Gilead and on the verge of being purged. 

I think it’s the precarious nature of an unstable society that one can simultaneously be high in the power structure and on the brink of having your hand (or other) cut off. 

Add me me to the list of those for whom there is no redemption for SJ. The day she realized that Gilead was being created with much more extreme versions of her initial intentions, she should have bailed and moved to Canada to start speaking out against. She still would have been complicit but not nearly as much as she is now. 

That said, if she had decided to run while in Toronto, she would simply need to get some modern clothing and let down her hair in order not to be heckled. She would barely be recognizable. 

Quote

confirmation of... Gilead did not take over the whole country of the US. 

Quote

How so?  What did I miss?

I believe the reference was to the ep’s mention of a remaining American government, publications and of Hawaii (and Alaska?) still being part of the democratic US. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by julia1130

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I couldn't get past the thought of "tourism" to Gilead.  What on earth would anyone travel to Gilead to see?  I keep trying to think of a snappy tourism tagline, can't come up with one.

 

Book spoiler below. 

Spoiler

 I am actually really happy that the show finally  touched on this fact, because in the book there's a full on scene that details the tourism of Gilead and it's one of my favorite parts.

 

I think at its' core it'd be based on novelty, even North Korea has a tourism department and a language course for foreign students to attend, that will forever boggle my mind.

It's a bit of trying to attract people to seeing and experiencing something that is so far out of sync from what they know and how they live.

 It's like how people are attracted to go to a Renaissance Fair or go to reenactments of the Civil War, this idea that you can go to Gilead and see this new world where people have given up cell phones and television and the Internet and the news, and people are no longer focused on fashion or makeup or fast cars or TV and movies, heck any kind of modern entertainment at all. 

Everyone now has a set purpose that they are given, they have certain roles that they must fulfill and look how much better they are for it.

They have returned back to a time when people were free from all worldly distractions, they now focus on making their country better and having children for the future, yabadaba bullshit.

  For some reason the leaders of Gilead are convinced that they can cover up everything that they don't want the rest of the world to see or know about their operation, like the killing wall, or that handmaids are systematically raped, and no one has real freedom anymore or choice or consent. 

 To tour Gilead would be like being taken on a planned factory tour where everything looks so perfect and pretty and interesting, but of course behind the curtain what really goes on would leave you shell shocked and horrified.

 That's why I found it so amusing when Fred had to admit that things had ended so terribly in Canada, because genocide, rape, religious oppression, gender discrimination, and mass murder just doesn't make for a great billboard. 

 I thought that part also played into the beginning when June is giving that very accurate airbnb review about the Waterford's home.

Sure it's a fairly nice house, decent space available, a little bit of historic charm here and there with modern touches, just excuse the fact that it houses a rapist and murderer and his equally complicit wife and their enslaved houseworker and their human chattel of a handmaid. 

Who wouldn't want to give such a place 5 stars? 

Edited June 15, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[lucindabelle]

I also don’t think were meant to read too much into at Lydia’s statement. This is the first time we’ve ever heard her talk about the past at all and it was huge for her to have done that so it was a little awkward. Also when people say I’m sorry it’s very common for someone to say it wasn’t your fault I hear she made it it wasn’t my fault. We’ve seen many times that aunt Lydia truly truly loves babies I don’t believe there’s anyway she would have Shake in the baby or neglected it I’m sure it was something like crib death and she blamed herself.

 

Serena just looks so miserable I feel For her. I think she was very tempted, and while it’s too soon for her to go all the way over, I think that’s where they’re leading to… Maybe even some kind of underground railroad with Serena on the right side.

 

Fred seriously thought the talking French and saying something pleasant to the gay guy was going to persuade anybody?

 

As for Nick, would it kill him to smile at Eden? She tries so hard. He did say the cookies look good. I was surprised and impressed that he told June everything. I never was suspicious of him but I thought that really was above and beyond

[Anela]

19 hours ago, chaifan said:

My one nitpick is the total convenience of Serena making a last minute decision to go into the bar and Mark being there ready and waiting to bait her with cigarettes.  First, I can't believe she wouldn't have some sort of minder with her, or at least nearby her, at all times.  They were with her during the tour through the garden.  Second, did they have multiple people waiting for similar opportunities?  What if she went on the elevator instead?  But I liked that they played her smart enough to know from the start it wasn't an innocent conversation from just a random stranger. 

I'm also surprised she didn't have a female minder with her.  I would think the better opportunity to have the conversation like Mark did would be in a ladies' room.

As a previous poster said, I totally buy the "princess" comment from the little girl.  I also thought she looked like Elsa with the cape and gloves. 

I buy it, too. She's very pretty, and was all dressed up. 

[DrSpaceman]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

How so?  What did I miss?

Denial?  Maybe that's why the men that set up Gilead as it is killed most of the doctors first?

That one male doctor who offered to impregnate June knew, "most of them are shooting blanks" or whatever it was he said about the Commanders.  That's not something the men who designed Gilead would want known.

The official talking to Serena at the bar was a representative of the "US" government, whatever that means anymore.  So some part of the country survived separate from Gilead. 

I didn't think about that male doctor and what he stated before, I thought it was just an offhand comment but you may be right.  The scientific community probably does know its more the males than the females. 

[DrSpaceman]

7 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

Book spoiler below. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 I am actually really happy that the show finally  touched on this fact, because in the book there's a full on scene that details the tourism of Gilead and it's one of my favorite parts.

 

I think at its' core it'd be based on novelty, even North Korea has a tourism department and a language course for foreign students to attend, that will forever boggle my mind.

It's a bit of trying to attract people to seeing and experiencing something that is so far out of sync from what they know and how they live.

 It's like how people are attracted to go to a Renaissance Fair or go to reenactments of the Civil War, this idea that you can go to Gilead and see this new world where people have given up cell phones and television and the Internet and the news, and people are no longer focused on fashion or makeup or fast cars or TV and movies, heck any kind of modern entertainment at all. 

Everyone now has a set purpose that they are given, they have certain roles that they must fulfill and look how much better they are for it.

They have returned back to a time when people were free from all worldly distractions, they now focus on making their country better and having children for the future, yabadaba bullshit.

  For some reason the leaders of Gilead are convinced that they can cover up everything that they don't want the rest of the world to see or know about their operation, like the killing wall, or that handmaids are systematically raped, and no one has real freedom anymore or choice or consent. 

 To tour Gilead would be like being taken on a planned factory tour where everything looks so perfect and pretty and interesting, but of course behind the curtain what really goes on would leave you shell shocked and horrified.

 That's why I found it so amusing when Fred had to admit that things had ended so terribly in Canada, because genocide, rape, religious oppression, gender discrimination, and mass murder just doesn't make for a great billboard. 

 I thought that part also played into the beginning when June is giving that very accurate airbnb review about the Waterford's home.

Sure it's a fairly nice house, decent space available, a little bit of historic charm here and there with modern touches, just excuse the fact that it houses a rapist and murderer and his equally complicit wife and their enslaved houseworker and their human chattel of a handmaid. 

Who wouldn't want to give such a place 5 stars? 

I know what you mean by the tourist angle, but there is no way the leaders of Gilead could simply let people in the country and travel around without government officials escorting or watching them.  They are executing people in the streets.  They seem to  be under martial law with guard everywhere waiting to beat up the first person that gets out of line.  Any guest or "tourist" in the country would have to be carefully monitored or escorted around to prevent them from, quite easily, seeing the wrong thing and exposing the totalitarian nature of the country. 

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

I know what you mean by the tourist angle, but there is no way the leaders of Gilead could simply let people in the country and travel around without government officials escorting or watching them.  They are executing people in the streets.  They seem to  be under martial law with guard everywhere waiting to beat up the first person that gets out of line.  Any guest or "tourist" in the country would have to be carefully monitored or escorted around to prevent them from, quite easily, seeing the wrong thing and exposing the totalitarian nature of the country. 

As a former travel writer, I have traveled to countries that weren't open for the general public to just go into and walk around on their own. We either had personal guides or had to book a tour package (like in Bhutan in the 1990s). They could do either one of these with Gilead and it would control the flow. 

[DrSpaceman]

13 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

As a former travel writer, I have traveled to countries that weren't open for the general public to just go into and walk around on their own. We either had personal guides or had to book a tour package (like in Bhutan in the 1990s). They could do either one of these with Gilead and it would control the flow. 

Right, that is the only way they could do it.  But even then I think it would be risky in Gilead.  Even on the most controlled tours and with guides you never know when a guard and a citizen or handmaid or anyone are going to have a very public and physical confrontation.

And they would like still get some "tourists" this way, but it would not be a "tourism" industry like currently exists in the US or like what existed in whatever physically consists of Gilead like before the new regime took over.  It would be not anything close to it.

But I know I am also reading way too much into an offhand comment made by Waterford to try and defuse a tense situation when meeting the Canadians.  Its possible they could do it, but at first thought, it certainly would not be the type of "tourism" currently enjoyed in most of this country or most parts of the world. 

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

I don't understand why it's taken them so long to figure out it's the men who are having the fertility problems.  You'd think that would be pretty easy to test, measure and determine, not something that would take years.  Considering the fertility crisis was something building up for a while, there would be tons of records from fertility clinics treating couples and finding again and again that it was the men who were having the problem. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Denial?  Maybe that's why the men that set up Gilead as it is killed most of the doctors first?

 

Sorry, the "them" in my question wasn't well defined...  I get why Gilead, supposedly, hasn't figured it out (though it seems they actually have).  I was wondering about the statement from Marc, which seemed to say that "they", meaning the US and possibly the rest of the world that's affected, are just realizing it's the men and not the women.  That's what I can't figure out as to why it took them so long.  It would have made more sense for Marc to say, "you do know it's the men, right?  They're the ones with the fertility issues."  Which Serena did already know, at least to some extent.  But it would have reaffirmed that for her.

Of course, if that were the real issue, there really wouldn't be that much of a population/fertility crisis in the rest of the world, at least in modern, developed countries.  If most women can still bear children, any country that wanted to keep their birth rates up would just provide free artificial insemination for any women wanting to get pregnant, incentivize pregnancy, etc. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

You know, it took this episode for me to really realize how delusional SJ is. I can excuse a lot of the things she's done including to help build Gilead because I really don't think she realized what she was getting into...but she has NO claim to this baby, even by her dumb religion, because not only was it not conceived by the commander, it wasn't even conceived during a Ceremony. They can't even claim paternity by ritualized mimicry of sex between a husband and wife via proxy. Meeting the American should have at least jolted her, but she doubled down. The devil you know, and all of that. 

Spoiler

If SJ helps Waterford rape June to induce labor I will never excuse or forgive her for anything in the past, present, or future. 

Do we know what happens to baby girls? For example, are Hannah and June's baby (if it's another girl) destined to grow up like Eden? Will Hannah, since she's from Before with "sinful" parents, become a handmaid? Would a girl with parents like the Waterfords be afforded a more substantial upbringing--some kind of education and a pool of high status potential husbands?

Edited June 15, 2018 by The Mighty Peanut