Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Proclone]

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I agree with you.  Also I bet those people won't have a problem with movies like The Favourite, who made actual, real historical figures in 1708 [SPOILER AHEAD]

  Hide contents

lesbians that said "Fuck this" and "Cunt that" all of the time.

Was that historically accurate?  We don't know.  Could be, but I tend to think not.  Yet movies like that are always eaten up with a spoon.

1

Spoiler

Well, the real Sarah Churchill did accuse Queen Anne and Abigail of having a sexual relationship.

 

 

But I do agree with your point.  Mary Queen of Scots is certainly very historically inaccurate in general.  It moves events around, compresses time (Mary has not aged a day when she's seen being executed despite over 25 years passing), and gives certain characters very modern attitudes towards sex and sexuality (Mary tells her male homosexual personal secretary something to the effect of that's how God made him).  But a black guy being there, that's way too historically inaccurate.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Right.  All sorts of artistic choices are made for the sake of entertainment, but people like to cherry-pick which ones are acceptable in their eyes.

Thanks for the fact-check on Sarah.  Interesting.  Although, I'm still going to venture that the outlandish dance sequences in The Favourite were probably made up?!  LOL

Edited December 30, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Although, I'm still going to venture that the outlandish dance sequences in The Favourite were probably made up?!  LOL

About 90% of The Favourite was made up. But they didn't throw in a black person so of course they are soooo historically accurate. *wipes puddle of sarcasm off keyboard*

I watched the London Theatre play of Frankenstein with Benjamin Cumberbatch and Johnny Lee Miller. I saw two versions, one with BC as the monster/JLM as doctor and one the other way round. It was very interesting to see how they each played the roles. What was also interesting was that Doc Frankenstein's father was played by a black man, as was his cousin/love interest. At first it was confusing because I kept thinking the father was her father, not Frankensein's, but once I got who was who it was fine. Funny thing, in one version his little brother was white, in the other he was black (changed the actor, obviously). I found it all very interesting and other than the actor who played the father (whom I didn't care for) I thought it was a great cast. It was the first time I had seen casting of family with no regard to race and it was very refreshing. 

[proserpina65]

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

About 90% of The Favourite was made up. But they didn't throw in a black person so of course they are soooo historically accurate. *wipes puddle of sarcasm off keyboard*

I watched the London Theatre play of Frankenstein with Benjamin Cumberbatch and Johnny Lee Miller. I saw two versions, one with BC as the monster/JLM as doctor and one the other way round. It was very interesting to see how they each played the roles. What was also interesting was that Doc Frankenstein's father was played by a black man, as was his cousin/love interest. At first it was confusing because I kept thinking the father was her father, not Frankensein's, but once I got who was who it was fine. Funny thing, in one version his little brother was white, in the other he was black (changed the actor, obviously). I found it all very interesting and other than the actor who played the father (whom I didn't care for) I thought it was a great cast. It was the first time I had seen casting of family with no regard to race and it was very refreshing. 

Every review I've read has pointed out a lot of historical inaccuracies in The Favourite.  And there were several choices made which were deliberately anachronistic.  The use of those particular words, however, is not one of those choices.  Both words were in common usage long before Queen Anne's reign, although whether or not someone at the level of Lady Sarah Churchill would be using them is a matter of debate.

If Mary Queen of Scots had been a serious attempt at historical accuracy, then the casting might've bothered me; since it's obviously not (a deliberate choice, I hope), well, there are far bigger issues with that steaming pile.

As far as theater is concerned, I've never really care much one way or the other, as long as the acting is good.

[NUguy514]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Every review I've read has pointed out a lot of historical inaccuracies in The Favourite.  And there were several choices made which were deliberately anachronistic.  The use of those particular words, however, is not one of those choices.  Both words were in common usage long before Queen Anne's reign, although whether or not someone at the level of Lady Sarah Churchill would be using them is a matter of debate.

If Mary Queen of Scots had been a serious attempt at historical accuracy, then the casting might've bothered me; since it's obviously not (a deliberate choice, I hope), well, there are far bigger issues with that steaming pile.

As far as theater is concerned, I've never really care much one way or the other, as long as the acting is good.

Yeah, I adored The Favourite, but it was not attempting to be a historically accurate account of anything regarding Queen Anne; that was the furthest thing from its mind.  Yorgos Lanthimos will probably never make a movie that isn't a trippy mind-fuck in some way, and The Favourite is no different even though it's a period piece.

I think Mary Queen of Scots was trying to be historically accurate in some respects but deliberately anachronistic in others, and it didn't work for me.  In particular:

Spoiler

When über-Catholic Mary tells her gay manservant right after he's fucked her husband on their wedding night, "That's how God made you" (or whatever) and is super chill and forgiving toward him, I was like:

That same manservant, by the way, was accused in real life of having an affair with Mary, so it bothered me even more.

[andromeda331]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:38 AM, Proclone said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Well, the real Sarah Churchill did accuse Queen Anne and Abigail of having a sexual relationship.

 

 

But I do agree with your point.  Mary Queen of Scots is certainly very historically inaccurate in general.  It moves events around, compresses time (Mary has not aged a day when she's seen being executed despite over 25 years passing), and gives certain characters very modern attitudes towards sex and sexuality (Mary tells her male homosexual personal secretary something to the effect of that's how God made him).  But a black guy being there, that's way too historically inaccurate.

Ha! That's really it. That's where people apparently draw the line. Oh no there was a black man in the movie! Then again I usually end up disappointed in movies about Mary Queen of Scots Elizabeth always ends up being so much more cooler even Mary had so much going on in her life, so much that happens but they always end up fictionalizing stuff and you never really get an idea of what Mary's thinking or feeling in everything she does or what happens in her life. She grew up in France for protection after England tried to force her to marry Edward, she raised in the French court, marries, widowed and returns to home to a very different country then France and one that became Protestant, married a moron, had a son, the moron gets jealous of her spending so much time with another man, kills him, gets murdered which Mary may or may not have been involved in, the whole mess with Bothwell. There's so much to work with but they don't use. 

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 11:31 AM, NUguy514 said:

Yeah, I adored The Favourite, but it was not attempting to be a historically accurate account of anything regarding Queen Anne; that was the furthest thing from its mind.  Yorgos Lanthimos will probably never make a movie that isn't a trippy mind-fuck in some way, and The Favourite is no different even though it's a period piece.

I think Mary Queen of Scots was trying to be historically accurate in some respects but deliberately anachronistic in others, and it didn't work for me.  In particular:

  Reveal hidden contents

When über-Catholic Mary tells her gay manservant right after he's fucked her husband on their wedding night, "That's how God made you" (or whatever) and is super chill and forgiving toward him, I was like:

That same manservant, by the way, was accused in real life of having an affair with Mary, so it bothered me even more.

Spoiler

Very true about being Catholic. But still Catholic or not I can't imagine anyone saying that to the person who fucked their husband. Even if they hated their husband which at that point Mary probably did.

Edited January 1, 2019 by andromeda331

[aradia22]

Quote

I recently saw Mary Queen of Scots, and while I was disappointed overall one did I did like was that POC were actually cast in a period piece.  There were several minor roles that were played by people of color. Some people seem to be really put of by it, citing historical accuracy. But I tend to think that if we accept an actor playing a historical figures that don't resemble that figure in the slightest to begin with, that skin color isn't more important than height or hair color. The film isn't a documentary and the characters are never presented in a way that implies the filmmakers think they characters would have been poc in real life, so I don't see why it's inherently more historically inaccurate than an Irish woman and an Aussie playing a Scottish and English queen. 

I think it depends on the movie. If there's supposed to be a great deal of historical accuracy or it's based on a book or real people then yeah, try and cast correctly (I don't just mean only cast white people but also cast the correct ethnicity, don't just casting any POC and pat yourself on the back). But if they play fast and loose with historical accuracy or realism (like it's magical or fantasy) then yeah, cast whoever you want who is best for the role. Not that I want to see POC actors sidelined but I think it's easy to cast them in secondary roles where it doesn't really matter. Like, does anyone care who plays Lady in Waiting #5? However, I think you also have to be conscious of the world you're presenting. Colorblind casting is different from color conscious casting. If you're not acknowledging the character's race you can't turn around and ignore the racism of that society by presenting it was a happily integrated space. Either it's a world where race is relevant or it's not for the sake of the limited scope of the story. I can't explain why this doesn't bother me as much in theater. Of course part of it is that there are so many revivals and if race isn't relevant to the plot then who really cares when you're seeing your 5th production of My Fair Lady or whatever. Maybe it's that I'm also just more aware of the performance so suspension of disbelief is less relevant when I can't lose myself in the world anyway. 

[xaxat]

I was unaware of this bit of Oscar history.

Edited January 23, 2019 by xaxat

[Ms Blue Jay]

Ugh I'm just repeating myself from the Oscars thread, but yes I only just learned that no black director has won Best Director and that this is Spike's first nomination.  C R A Z Y

[JessePinkman]

8 hours ago, xaxat said:

I was unaware of this bit of Oscar history.

She's so nervous! I wonder if this impacted her career at all, you know how Hollywood is, especially against women.

The amount of backlash I've seen online against Black Panther since yesterday is wild. Not unexpected just...damn. Y'all are still mad about The Dark Knight? "Overrated" has been thrown around the last two days than it has the past year in regards to this movie. People are very VERY upset that it got nominated, it's hilarious.

[topanga]

58 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

The amount of backlash I've seen online against Black Panther since yesterday is wild. Not unexpected just...damn. Y'all are still mad about The Dark Knight? "Overrated" has been thrown around the last two days than it has the past year in regards to this movie. People are very VERY upset that it got nominated, it's hilarious.

This. Would people have been this upset if any other Marvel or DC movie had been nominated for Best Picture? I’m sure there would be people who say the movie didn’t deserve the nomination, but the anger? Some folks are ready to riot or boycott the Oscars because BP was nominated. 

[starri]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

She's so nervous! I wonder if this impacted her career at all, you know how Hollywood is, especially against women.

They gave her Best Supporting Actress a few years later.  They couldn't have been too put-out.

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

This. Would people have been this upset if any other Marvel or DC movie had been nominated for Best Picture? I’m sure there would be people who say the movie didn’t deserve the nomination, but the anger? Some folks are ready to riot or boycott the Oscars because BP was nominated. 

That's exactly it, the anger is so pronounced. I hated Aquaman, I watched it, I didn't like it, most people loved it and it made a billion dollars and you know what? I moved the fuck on. And they like to say it's not about race except it's 100% about race, it's that extra insidious bit of anger that makes it about black people daring to be successful and seen.

[starri]

Re-watched Shelter over the long weekend.

I probably would still call it the Citizen Kane of low-budget gay indies, even if the ending is completely unrealistic.

[methodwriter85]

God, it is such a damn shame that the best Trevor Wright could do after was Bra Guy in The Social Network

I'm still kind of shocked that he basically stopped acting after 2010 because he had a pretty steady working career in the 2000's and then it seemed like he just went poof when the decade turned.

[PepSinger]

4 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

She's so nervous! I wonder if this impacted her career at all, you know how Hollywood is, especially against women.

The amount of backlash I've seen online against Black Panther since yesterday is wild. Not unexpected just...damn. Y'all are still mad about The Dark Knight? "Overrated" has been thrown around the last two days than it has the past year in regards to this movie. People are very VERY upset that it got nominated, it's hilarious.

 

3 hours ago, topanga said:

This. Would people have been this upset if any other Marvel or DC movie had been nominated for Best Picture? I’m sure there would be people who say the movie didn’t deserve the nomination, but the anger? Some folks are ready to riot or boycott the Oscars because BP was nominated. 

 

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

That's exactly it, the anger is so pronounced. I hated Aquaman, I watched it, I didn't like it, most people loved it and it made a billion dollars and you know what? I moved the fuck on. And they like to say it's not about race except it's 100% about race, it's that extra insidious bit of anger that makes it about black people daring to be successful and seen.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. It is so blatant that I cannot believe more media outlets and outspoken black artists haven’t said more about it. Where was this back in February? I have seen glass less transparent than these people.

Edited January 24, 2019 by PepSinger

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

She's so nervous! I wonder if this impacted her career at all, you know how Hollywood is, especially against women.

The amount of backlash I've seen online against Black Panther since yesterday is wild. Not unexpected just...damn. Y'all are still mad about The Dark Knight? "Overrated" has been thrown around the last two days than it has the past year in regards to this movie. People are very VERY upset that it got nominated, it's hilarious.

On Twitter someone replied she is agoraphobic.

Kim Basinger in the 90s - it doesn't get more otherworldly beautiful than that for me.

3 hours ago, starri said:

They gave her Best Supporting Actress a few years later.  They couldn't have been too put-out.

9 years is a long time.  Come on.  She was extremely hot in the 80s and very early 90s, fell off the radar, and then famously came back with LA Confidential.

2 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

That's exactly it, the anger is so pronounced. I hated Aquaman, I watched it, I didn't like it, most people loved it and it made a billion dollars and you know what? I moved the fuck on. And they like to say it's not about race except it's 100% about race, it's that extra insidious bit of anger that makes it about black people daring to be successful and seen.

Thank you.

But Also Black Panther was fucking good.  I honestly and truly think that.  For so many reasons.  I've wrote about it at length and I won't bother reiterating it here, I'm sure I'm preaching to the wonderful choir.  But it's definitely one of the best movies of the year FOR ME (Randy Jackson voice.)

[Zuleikha]

I'm disappointed that Crazy Rich Asians hasn't gotten any love this award seasons. I really expected Michelle Yeoh to get a Best Supporting Actress nomination with Constance Wu as an outside shot for Lead Actress. I thought it also might get some of the technical category awards since the clothing was lavish and it was visually stunning.

[methodwriter85]

After watching Spiderman into the Universe and falling in love with Miles Morales, I left the theater thinking about how much I loved that Miles was built from the ground-up in his comics as a black guy from Brooklyn. I loved that he was black Spiderman, but he wasn't a color-blind Peter Parker casting. I get why people want more color-blind castings (black James Bond, for example), I kept thinking about how much cooler it was that we were getting this richly drawn ethnic character instead of just taking a canonically white character and just casting them with a black person.

I mean, like I said, I get why people want this, but I feel like the sometimes the end result feels like the Devon's Creek sketch on Mad TV.

[VCRTracking]

Yeah, like WTF? There were FOUR girls in The Craft!

[JBC344]

22 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Yeah, like WTF? There were FOUR girls in The Craft!

Damn!!!! That is messed up.  Ironically Rachel True is probably the best actress to have at one of these conventions.  Just wow!!!!

[PepSinger]

Not to mention that her character in the movie experinces blatant racism at the hands of a classmate!

[Mabinogia]

Wow, that is messed up! There were four equal characters. WTF. She was by far my favorite character (and actress) of the four. 

[proserpina65]

On ‎01‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 10:29 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

9 years is a long time.  Come on.  She was extremely hot in the 80s and very early 90s, fell off the radar, and then famously came back with LA Confidential.

She was hot, but hadn't shown much evidence that she could act all that well.  Her performance in LA Confidential astonished a lot of us.

[Luckylyn]

Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs

[Luckylyn]

The Evolution of Queer Baiting 

[Trini]

On 2/11/2019 at 11:53 PM, Luckylyn said:

Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs

One thing that disturbs me is how this is perpetuated by men against men.

[xaxat]

I am genuinely excited about this. Charles Burnett To Direct Slavery-Escape Pic ‘Steal Away’ For Amazon

It's the true story of Robert Smalls. He was a slave who was kept as a crew member on Confederate ships during the war. He took the knowledge he gain from that experience,  organized the other slave sailors to steal a Confederate steamship, loaded their families on it, ran through the Confederate blockade (they knew to Confederate signals) and escaped to freedom. He then came back to South Carolina and was elected to the House of Representatives. 

That's a whole lot of story.

Edited February 28, 2019 by xaxat

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, xaxat said:

I am genuinely excited about this. Charles Burnett To Direct Slavery-Escape Pic ‘Steal Away’ For Amazon

It's the true story of Robert Smalls. He was a slave who was kept as a crew member on Confederate ships during the war. He took the knowledge he gain from that experience,  organized the other slave sailors to steal a Confederate steamship, loaded their families on it, ran through the Confederate blockade (they knew to Confederate signals) and escaped to freedom. He then came back to South Carolina and was elected to the House of Representatives. 

That's a whole lot of story.

That sounds exciting!

[Captain Carrot]

23 hours ago, xaxat said:

It's the true story of Robert Smalls.

I first heard about Robert Smalls in Drunk History, and thought that his story would make for an amazing movie.

[xaxat]

Did Spike just get a story for a sequel to BlacKkKlansman? How a black man ‘outsmarted’ a neo-Nazi group — and became their new leader

Quote

Without notifying his followers or even his inner circle, the longtime president of a legacy neo-Nazi group has signed over its control to a black civil rights activist from California.

James Hart Stern is the new leader of the National Socialist Movement, and his first move as president was to ask a Virginia judge to find the group guilty of conspiring to commit violence at the deadly Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in 2017, allegations made in a lawsuit filed that year by a counterprotester against NSM and other white-nationalist groups.

[ApathyMonger]

The Fear Street trilogy will have two lesbian main characters, with each actress playing a character in both the 1600s and mid-90s:

http://collider.com/fear-street-movie-cast-kiana-madeira-olivia-welch

Quote

Plot details are being kept under wraps, but sources say that Madeira (right) and Welch (below) will each be playing gay teenagers trying to navigate their rocky relationship when they’re targeted by the crazy horrors of their small town, Shadyside. Each actress will be playing two different characters — one in the mid-’90s, and one in the 1600s, when gay women faced even greater adversity and repercussions — and they’re both slated to appear in all three films, according to sources.

[UYI]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:37 PM, starri said:

They gave her Best Supporting Actress a few years later.  They couldn't have been too put-out.

I'll respond to this in the Future Stars thread. 

[Trini]

Profile on Jeannie Epper: 'This 78-Year-Old Stuntwoman Has Defied Expectations (and Death) Her Whole Career'
 

Quote

By the 1960s, she'd done dozens and dozens of stunts, but the arrival of Wonder Woman in 1978 opened up opportunities that remained the exception for women for decades to come. Action movies and TV shows rarely starred women in leading roles, so there weren't many jobs for stuntwomen. And in a practice known as "wigging" that lingers to this day, what jobs there were often went to men wearing women's costumes. Wonder Woman changed that, and Epper's career trajectory.

"TV has been ahead of the bell curve for a long time," said Wise, whose Artemis Women in Action Film Festival celebrates films that put women at the center of the action. From Wynonna Earp to Game of Thrones, she said, television has done better at providing opportunities where film has lagged. (After all, 40 years passed between the Wonder Woman series and the movie — the first female-led superhero flick to be budgeted and marketed on the same level as a male-led superhero movie.) Gender bias has been even more pronounced in the stunt world, where, for a long time, chauvinistic beliefs about women's physical abilities kept them locked out of the industry. But the female stunt performers who do break into the industry face outsized obstacles that men don't, starting with riskier work. Debbie Evans, Epper's protégé and friend who is especially adept at motorcycle stunts, summed up the double standard with this scenario from a job she did: "The guy on the back of the motorcycle had on hockey pads. I'm in a short skirt, sandals, and a tank top." That, and other injustices are changing, though. "I've been more vocal because of what [Jeannie] taught me," she said.

Jeannie broke ground just by showing up and doing the job. But the work came with challenges besides bruises. Sexism and sexual harassment were unofficial, unwelcome job hazards, even if her famous relatives shielded her somewhat from unwanted advances. "I had three brothers that would kill them," Epper said, not to mention the damage she could inflict on her own. "'I'm the kind that would push them through the wall."

[Trini]

'5 black female artists converge for the Marsai Martin star vehicle ‘Little’'

Quote

In addition to the three leads, it took the combined might of two other black women to get the project off the ground: director Tina Gordon and “Girls Trip” screenwriter Tracy Oliver.

Even in Hollywood's increasingly diverse climate, it is a rare feat for five black women to have the opportunity to work together in major roles both in front of and behind the camera.

“It doesn’t happen often,” said Martin.

“Rarely,” said Rae. “Unless it's an Ava DuVernay project.”

“I can’t think of a time, honestly,” said Oliver. “Even with ‘Girls Trip’ it was me and a bunch of dudes” behind the camera.

“I have not had the experience of having three black female leads,” added Gordon. “It was great to be able to look to my left, right and just have so many different generations of black women in these roles. It was a first for me.”

[aradia22]

I was so confused and then I realized that young woman with the makeup is the youngest daughter on blackish! Time flies. 

Watched the trailer. Issa is great. I'm not as into Regina but I guess she's not in most of the movie given the premise. It feels a little like when the Rock makes a family movie except Issa is killing it. It seems decently funny even if I'm not that into the premise. 

[Archery]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 7:39 PM, Captain Carrot said:

I first heard about Robert Smalls in Drunk History, and thought that his story would make for an amazing movie.

There is a more family friendly version of Smalls' story in Kevin Hart's Guide to Black History, which is on Netflix.  Just as funny, but no swearing or anything. 

[topanga]

29 minutes ago, Archery said:

There is a more family friendly version of Smalls' story in Kevin Hart's Guide to Black History, which is on Netflix.  Just as funny, but no swearing or anything. 

I only watched that because my son had it on, and it was really good. Funny, but also very informative. And adorable Saniyya Sidney played Kevin Hart's daughter.  

[topanga]

On the "Crazy Rich Asians" thread, a few of us are commenting this week because we recently watched it for the first (or fifth) time.

One poster said, and I'm paraphrasing, that she doesn't usually go for Asian men but finds Henry Golding hot. I don't think she meant her comment to offend, but I cringed when I read that line. 

But should I have cringed? I often see people post on PTV Primetimer that they don't usually like blonds/redheads/short men/muscular men, etc. And even on this thread, I've seen posters comment that they aren't usually attracted to white men, but... Heck, I've even said that I find Michael Ealy and Boris Kodjoe attractive even though I usually don't go ga-ga over light-skinned brothers.

I do think this is different, however. Asian men (much like black women) have been labeled by much of Hollywood as "not desirable" or "not sex symbol material." There are emails and articles that say as much.  I'm glad Crazy Rich Asians was able to showcase multiple hot men who just happen to be Asian. I do hope Hollywood (and individual moviegoers) will stop being surprised by the presence of beautiful people of any race or ethnicity. 

[Neurochick]

26 minutes ago, topanga said:

On the "Crazy Rich Asians" thread, a few of us are commenting this week because we recently watched it for the first (or fifth) time.

One poster said, and I'm paraphrasing, that she doesn't usually go for Asian men but finds Henry Golding hot. I don't think she meant her comment to offend, but I cringed when I read that line. 

But should I have cringed? I often see people post on PTV Primetimer that they don't usually like blonds/redheads/short men/muscular men, etc. And even on this thread, I've seen posters comment that they aren't usually attracted to white men, but... Heck, I've even said that I find Michael Ealy and Boris Kodjoe attractive even though I usually don't go ga-ga over light-skinned brothers.

I do think this is different, however. Asian men (much like black women) have been labeled by much of Hollywood as "not desirable" or "not sex symbol material." There are emails and articles that say as much.  I'm glad Crazy Rich Asians was able to showcase multiple hot men who just happen to be Asian. I do hope Hollywood (and individual moviegoers) will stop being surprised by the presence of beautiful people of any race or ethnicity. 

I read that post too.  I didn't really cringe because of what you state in the last paragraph.

One of the reasons why Asian men and Black women have been labeled "not desirable" is because of fucked up promotion.  

Too often Black women and Asian men, in the movies and on TV are shown as "not attractive, not desirable, not sexy, etc.  Perhaps the original poster has been affected by this negative promotion.  In CRA (which I saw for the first time yesterday on HBO) Henry Golding was smoking hot, not unusual, but how often do we see hot, Asian men in the movies or on TV?  How often do we see dark skinned Black women in the movies or on TV?  

Just my two cents.

[Ms Blue Jay]

20 hours ago, topanga said:

On the "Crazy Rich Asians" thread, a few of us are commenting this week because we recently watched it for the first (or fifth) time.

One poster said, and I'm paraphrasing, that she doesn't usually go for Asian men but finds Henry Golding hot. I don't think she meant her comment to offend, but I cringed when I read that line. 

I cringed too.  That really annoys me.  

What this person probably means is "I don't know a lot of Asian men, and I don't have a lot of Asian men in my life, and I don't really give them a chance, but Henry Golding is attractive".  That's the real truth of the matter.  It's just a lack of access, or attention, or appreciation.

When people don't like a certain type, I hate when the language blames the TYPE for not attracting them.  No, blame yourself for being closed-minded, or closed-off, or maybe ignorant.  So many women will list the supposed qualities Asian men have that makes it "justified" that they're not attractive, but those qualities are untrue stereotypes, extremely harmful, and unfair.  Why can't you just say you're closed off to that type, instead of labelling that type as unattractive?  

The first one is expressing a subjective opinion.  The second one is pretending your subjective opinion is an objective fact, and it's a big pet peeve of mine.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[aradia22]

I think there's a kind of exceptionalism. This is a thorny topic to discuss but I think I've mentioned that I wasn't thrilled with his casting because he's Asian but he's Malaysian and half-white. Obviously there is variation among any racial or ethnic group in terms of phenotype... height, hair color, eye color, skin pigmentation, facial features, body type, etc. but I don't think it's coincidental that he's seen as attractive and he's not that far off from the white male standard of beauty. 

There aren't a lot of well-known Asian actors so to shift the conversation, for me it's like saying you aren't typically attracted to black women but you think Halle Berry is beautiful. You want a cookie? You don't deserve a gold star for that. I'm not saying that you can't have a type but if you can't see that Halle is beautiful but Lupita Nyong'o, Viola Davis, Queen Latifah, etc. are also beautiful, then I feel sorry for you. Even though rigid ideals of beauty hurt everyone, I feel like society is more accepting of variation the closer you are to the ideal white beauty standard. So if you're white, you can look like Karlie Kloss or Scarlett Johanssen or Ashley Graham or Olivia Wilde or Blake Lively or Emma Watson or Amanda Seyfried or Gal Gadot or Jessica Chastain, etc. and be considered beautiful. 

[NUguy514]

I am very much of the opinion that Henry Golding, Chris Pang, and Pierre Png could all completely get it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I think there's a kind of exceptionalism. This is a thorny topic to discuss but I think I've mentioned that I wasn't thrilled with his casting because he's Asian but he's Malaysian and half-white.

I get it and I understand it.  And I spoke about this before, but that's a good reason why I found the casting of Lara Jean in To All The Boys I've Loved Before so shocking.  We finally have an actual character who is biracial, half Asian, and half white (it almost NEVER happens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), and they actually cast a full Asian woman to play her.

If you tell all the mixed race Asian people that they're not allowed to play characters that are explicitly full Asian in the text, then fine --- but if you refuse to cast mixed race Asian people in those actual biracial or multiracial roles, then really, there's almost nothing left.  It's not a surprise that Sonoya Mizuno has played at least two non-humans in the very, very few roles she's been given in Hollywood.

How many times are casting people going to look for a British, Argentinian, Japanese person?  (Sonoya)?  How many times are casting people going to look for a Venezuelan, German, Korean person (Fred Armisen for another example)?   How many times are casting people going to look for a Japanese, British, German person (Devon Aoki for another example?)  Basically almost never, which is why Devon's career is what it is.  When they finally do have a piece of text that explicitly makes the character half Korean and half white (TATBILB) I was extremely, extremely shocked that they didn't even bother to cast a multiracial person in the role.  If that's how they're going to cast, it's kind of hard for me to blame Henry Golding for taking that part.  Where the casting people apparently said "We've tested a bunch of people, and you are the ONLY person we want playing this role."

Edited April 18, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Trini]

The conversation about Asian men being portrayed as attractive/desirable reminded me of my teen crush Jason Scott Lee in The Jungle Book. That guy should have been a bigger star!

And also related to appropriate casting - I did notice back then, but never really thought about it until much later, that he's playing Mowgli, but he's not Indian/South Asian at all. Makes me think, did they even try to cast someone who was Indian? I know I can't think of anyone who was close enough to Hollywood beauty standards, and had some action role credibility (JSL had gotten some fame from his role in the Bruce Lee biopic).

[Lugal]

On 4/17/2019 at 10:52 AM, Neurochick said:

One of the reasons why Asian men and Black women have been labeled "not desirable" is because of fucked up promotion.  

Too often Black women and Asian men, in the movies and on TV are shown as "not attractive, not desirable, not sexy, etc.  Perhaps the original poster has been affected by this negative promotion.  In CRA (which I saw for the first time yesterday on HBO) Henry Golding was smoking hot, not unusual, but how often do we see hot, Asian men in the movies or on TV?  How often do we see dark skinned Black women in the movies or on TV? 

I remember an article that talks about gendered race theory, that Blacks are viewed as prototypically male while Asians are viewed as prototypically female, which is why Black women and Asian men are often left out.

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

How many times are casting people going to look for a British, Argentinian, Japanese person?  (Sonoya)?  How many times are casting people going to look for a Venezuelan, German, Korean person (Fred Armisen for another example)?   How many times are casting people going to look for a Japanese, British, German person (Devon Aoki for another example?)  Basically almost never, which is why Devon's career is what it is.  When they finally do have a piece of text that explicitly makes the character half Korean and half white (TATBILB) I was extremely, extremely shocked that they didn't even bother to cast a multiracial person in the role.  If that's how they're going to cast, it's kind of hard for me to blame Henry Golding for taking that part.  Where the casting people apparently said "We've tested a bunch of people, and you are the ONLY person we want playing this role."

I agree with you 100%. 

[Scarlett45]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:14 PM, aradia22 said:

There aren't a lot of well-known Asian actors so to shift the conversation, for me it's like saying you aren't typically attracted to black women but you think Halle Berry is beautiful. You want a cookie? You don't deserve a gold star for that. I'm not saying that you can't have a type but if you can't see that Halle is beautiful but Lupita Nyong'o, Viola Davis, Queen Latifah, etc. are also beautiful, then I feel sorry for you. Even though rigid ideals of beauty hurt everyone, I feel like society is more accepting of variation the closer you are to the ideal white beauty standard. So if you're white, you can look like Karlie Kloss or Scarlett Johanssen or Ashley Graham or Olivia Wilde or Blake Lively or Emma Watson or Amanda Seyfried or Gal Gadot or Jessica Chastain, etc. and be considered beautiful. 

(Bolding mine) YES you are exactly on the money. The media is saying “POC (and more specifically WOC) can be attractive if they have a hair more melanin than white persons, but other than that must fit Northern European beauty standards as closely as possible”. 

While all of the white women you mentioned are attractive women, the only one who actually “sticks out” as a different beauty standard is Ashley Graham, who’s got a well proportioned “thicker” body often found in women of color. However on Ashley it’s “exotic” (omg I hate that word) when there are millions of WOC who look like that. Of course Ashley is beautiful and I’m not taking anything away from her or her modeling talent. Henry Golding was able to play a romantic lead because he has a lot of facial symmetry and gorgeous muscles. The Asian (or Asian American) version of a Seth Rogen would NEVER get the pretty woman in a mainstream movie. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

 The Asian (or Asian American) version of a Seth Rogen would NEVER get the pretty woman in a mainstream movie. 

I'm so freaking tired of the schlubby, nothing-looking white guy landing incredibly desirable women trope.  It's still happening in 2019, too.  (As you are mentioning!)

I think that Jaime Pressly is one of the most beautiful women in Hollywood.  On the show "Mom" (a show I admittedly love) they were floating this subplot of Will Sasso playing a character who was supposedly too good for her.  It made me really annoyed.  The movie "Long Shot" is basically a long form of this.  I think Seth Rogen is cool, and I found him attractive in "The 40 Year Old Virgin" but seriously, this trope makes me really not want to spend money on this movie.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm so freaking tired of the schlubby, nothing-looking white guy landing incredibly desirable women trope.  It's still happening in 2019, too.  (As you are mentioning!)

I think that Jaime Pressly is one of the most beautiful women in Hollywood.  On the show "Mom" (a show I admittedly love) they were floating this subplot of Will Sasso playing a character who was supposedly too good for her.  It made me really annoyed.  The movie "Long Shot" is basically a long form of this.  I think Seth Rogen is cool, and I found him attractive in "The 40 Year Old Virgin" but seriously, this trope makes me really not want to spend money on this movie.

I know what you mean. I would love if more “average” looking actors (like Seth Rogen types) who are actually talented could get roles in mainstream romantic comedies. And I’d have no problem if “different levels of attractiveness”(which is always subjective) individuals ended up falling for each other. But it’s always the schlubby (didn’t know how to spell that by the way thanks) white man with an absolutely gorgeous drop dead white woman.

Off the top of my head that didn’t do this was Something New , Sana’a Lanthan is pretty, but in a very normal way (if you saw her walking down the street you’d think she was a normal woman), she’s not unusually thin or toned or portioned due to plastic surgery and they paired her with a hot white guy Simon Baker. 

My Mom watched “Mom”- Jaime Priesly is very beautiful! And she’s a blonde thin white woman which means she’s THE STANDARD, who’s this guy that’s “too good” for her? Is he millionaire Jesus?!!