Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I would add that it's kind of on the same level as people calling Joe Locke ugly when mostly all he's done is exist, because there's a feeling of "Leave those children alone!" to it for me. As far as I can tell, there's never been this deep love for Snow White, since I've seen articles about how she's the worst Disney princess. I'm sure people like the character and enjoy seeing her onscreen, but I wonder now if Jenna Ortega had been cast if she'd pass muster. Because it'd still be the same character with the same themes, just with a different Latina actress in the role.

Snow White was never a favorite of mine. She always felt more like a kid to me where as Cinderella and Aurora always felt more grown up. I could believe them as a young adult. Snow White always felt much younger to me. 

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think the reaction to her and Peter Dinklage"s comments means that minority actors should be grateful and not complain. 

Yeah, how dare they actually have an opinion that doesn’t match with the status quo. 🙄

Poor Rachel. I knew they would come for her the second they were done with Halle Bailey.

Snow White was never a favorite either, although I will concede that people tend to be overly harsh on the early princesses. Still, I don’t mind that they’re trying to update her. Why in the new Disney+ Lego Disney Princess special, she’s still very much herself, but she’s not helpless: she’s learned how to use an axe and talk to animals. (It’s a cute show, definitely check it out)

17 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It's funny how Snow White and the Huntsmen got by everyone just fine in 2012, which also emphasized Snow White as a leader and completely 86ed the romance, but for some reason this isn't sitting well. Gee, I wonder what it can be?

This. And the Once Upon A Time TV series had many, MANY flaws but nobody ever complained about Ginnifer Godwin’s Snow White being a badass bandit princess. 

[andromeda331]

46 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, how dare they actually have an opinion that doesn’t match with the status quo. 🙄

Poor Rachel. I knew they would come for her the second they were done with Halle Bailey.

Snow White was never a favorite either, although I will concede that people tend to be overly harsh on the early princesses. Still, I don’t mind that they’re trying to update her. Why in the new Disney+ Lego Disney Princess special, she’s still very much herself, but she’s not helpless: she’s learned how to use an axe and talk to animals. (It’s a cute show, definitely check it out)

This. And the Once Upon A Time TV series had many, MANY flaws but nobody ever complained about Ginnifer Godwin’s Snow White being a badass bandit princess. 

She was an awesome Snow White.

[MadyGirl1987]

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

She was an awesome Snow White.

This. And the Once Upon A Time TV series had many, MANY flaws but nobody ever complained about Ginnifer Godwin’s Snow White being a badass bandit princess. 

True, but I would argue the show did Snow a disservice by sidelining her in favor of the creators' darling, Regina. To the extent we were actually supposed to blame a preteen/teenaged Snow for Regina's boyfriend being killed by Regina's mom...

I will admit I cringed when I saw Zigler's comments, because it came across a bit as putting down the original to prop up the remakes, which I feel happens for the Disney princess remakes a lot(i.e. the remake is taking modern sensibilities about women, romance and sexuality into account so it's "fixing" the original) but I hate how it seems people are piling on.

[Spartan Girl]

3 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

True, but I would argue the show did Snow a disservice by sidelining her in favor of the creators' darling, Regina. To the extent we were actually supposed to blame a preteen/teenaged Snow for Regina's boyfriend being killed by Regina's mom...

All true but let’s stay on subject 😉 

[methodwriter85]

Alright, so we got Yhara's take on the Rachel Zegler situation:

At the end of the day, it seems like people are acting like rabid dogs towards Rachel Zegler and are trying to tear her apart as much as possible. And it's just like, "Why? Seriously? What did this young woman ever do to you?"

At this point I wonder if Rachel Zegler is regretting ever auditioning for West Side Story and getting it. She probably would have been better off just going to a liberal arts college, getting a theater degree, and then going into the theater rounds for a few years and building up her career that way (ala her co-star Ariana deBose) instead of what happened to her. 

Maybe that could be the root of the resentment towards Rachel- that she was a given a fairy tale intro into Hollywood but instead of acting like an "aw shucks, I'm so grateful to be here!" wide-eyed starlet, she acted like an actual human with actual opinions and actual flaws, and people can't handle that.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

True, but I would argue the show did Snow a disservice by sidelining her in favor of the creators' darling, Regina. To the extent we were actually supposed to blame a preteen/teenaged Snow for Regina's boyfriend being killed by Regina's mom...

I will admit I cringed when I saw Zigler's comments, because it came across a bit as putting down the original to prop up the remakes, which I feel happens for the Disney princess remakes a lot(i.e. the remake is taking modern sensibilities about women, romance and sexuality into account so it's "fixing" the original) but I hate how it seems people are piling on.

Before all that started. Ginnifer was an awesome Snow White.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

All true but let’s stay on subject 😉 

That's probably a good idea. I could go on forever about that.

[kiddo82]

This isn't a great article re: the Rachel Zegler Snow White movie.  It's basically a bunch of Twitter reactions and it's one of those that makes you scroll forever before you get to the point.  

However: 

“I don’t give a sh*t about the new Snow White, but Rachel Zegler is not your damn punching bag,” @JeffMovieMan wrote. “‘Oh she’s desecrating Snow White with her wokeness-“‘YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT SNOW WHITE! YOU NEVER CARED! You only started pretending to care once you had an excuse to be a d*ck.”

This.  This.  All of this.

[Annber03]

34 minutes ago, kiddo82 said:

YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT SNOW WHITE! YOU NEVER CARED! You only started pretending to care once you had an excuse to be a d*ck.”

We need to emblazon this part in particular somewhere where all these online rage morons are forced to read it on a daily basis. Seriously, thank you. 

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

We need to emblazon this part in particular somewhere where all these online rage morons are forced to read it on a daily basis. Seriously, thank you. 

Co-sign.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[Trini]

I haven't been able to find the direct link to the report, but here's an article on the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative's latest study: 'Hollywood Diversity Report: Do White Men Do Best at the Box Office?'

Quote

... So when the researchers statistically controlled for production budget, marketing spend and distribution, they found that gender and/or race was not statistically related to box office performance domestically or internationally after all. “We also found that stories with women of color at the center perform as well at the box office as stories with white males at the center, when financial support variables are controlled,” the authors continued, adding that stories centering women of color actually had the highest median Metacritic scores among the four identity groups.

 

[Trini]

'Former Oscars diversity chief on ‘micro- and macro-aggressions’ that led to exit'

excerpt:

Quote

In my role at the academy, I sat in the crossfire between the communities I was advocating for and those I was calling on to champion change. On both sides, there was fear. Fear made it challenging for those who are underrepresented within the industry to trust that I had their best interest at heart. Given the history of the industry, there was skepticism. They needed to know that I not only heard their concerns but felt them. There were also people in positions of power who feared change, feared losing relevance, feared losing money … and feared being canceled.

Fear created an impasse. It fueled a scarcity mind-set, as opposed to one of abundance. It prevented artists, executives, advocates and allies from being able to sincerely listen to understand without becoming defensive. And it provoked resistance to collaboration and creative thinking, a stance that has slowed or halted shifts not only at the academy but across the entire industry. Prioritizing DEAI is not the zero-sum game it is often perceived to be. ...

 

[possibilities]

What a mess.

I'm taking a course with Loretta Ross called  "Calling in: Creating Change without Cancel Culture". She talks a lot about the impasse created in these kinds of situations, and how it means nothing gets done and people burnout on even trying. 

[kiddo82]

Random Insomnia Thought:  1992 was a heck of a year for either women driven films and/or women giving performances that have endured/entered the zeitgeist.  The top grossing domestic movie of the year was Batman Returns which gave us Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman.  The number 3 movie domestic of the entire year was Sister Act. Also in the top 10 you have Basic Instinct, A League of the Own, and the Hand that Rocks the Cradle.  The Bodyguard, White Men Can't Jump, and Fried Green Tomatoes were in the top 20.  Also of note in the top 30 is Death Becomes Her and just outside at 31 is My Cousin Vinny.  Not sure if that means anything but as I said, I had this realization that a lot of these great movies/performances came out of this year and when I dug a little deeper I found even more.

*The Prince of Tides was a Christmas release in 1991 and made most of its money in 1992 where it ended up at 23rd.

Edited October 20, 2023 by kiddo82

[Spartan Girl]

So South Park really had nothing better to do than to take on this non-issue? Because that’s the most pressing matter in the world today, that POC get to play popular characters? Fuck Trey Parker and Matt Stone. I’m so glad I gave up on this show.

[methodwriter85]

As a related tangent, I think Rachel Zegler is learning the hard way that light-skin/white-passing privilege is not the same as actual white girl privilege in the same way that Meghan Markle did.

[kiddo82]

I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't know that that specifically applies in this case. (although it can be argued that race and/or privilege is never not a factor.)  Frankly, I don't think Zegler has done anything out of pocket but I also think the internet is full of people who just love the excuse to be assholes regardless of the target.  There are some "protected" young starlets but it's fickle and I could see people turning whoever has made the comments Rachel has made.  (Even though I will again state that she hasn't done or said anything wrong!) The likes of Anne Hathaway and Brie Larson were given shit simply for having the audacity to exist.

Edited October 29, 2023 by kiddo82

[methodwriter85]

I think I meant it in terms of how, when this all first started, Rachel Zegler would tell people, "Hey, I'm actually a White Latina, so Snow is still White!"

....that really doesn't seem to matter at all during this pile-on.

It does need to be said that it's insane all this happened over literally nothing, and the fact that we're still talking about this months later. And I really do think it's because she's an easy target as a movie newcomer who hasn't actually had a hit role yet and because Rachel doesn't put on the simpering wide-eyed "Oh gosh, I can't believe Hollywood chose lil' ol' ME to star in movies!" 

In any event, Rachel's at the point now where anything she says or does will be taken negatively. She could save a bus full of children and she'd still have nasty haters bitching about her. I just hope Rachel has a thick skin- eventually there will be a new rage target so hopefully she rides this out.

Edited November 1, 2023 by methodwriter85

[Trini]

Disney’s Legal Woes Mount in Pay Equity Suit After Class Certification

Quote

Disney in 2019 was hit with a suit accusing it of “rampant pay discrimination.” The case cleared a major hurdle Dec. 8 when a judge certified a diverse class of employees, who work across the company’s movie production arm, record labels, theme parks and home distribution subsidiaries, among various other units including broadcast and research and development. It’s believed to be one of the largest classes ever suing under an equal pay act claim. The group comprises women employed by Disney between April 2015 and three months before trial, which is set to start in October next year, below the level of vice president.

 

[Trini]

From a month ago, but I thought this was really interesting; this is specifically about Barbie, but I thought it was informative about how movies can be 'translated' into American Sign Language:

'‘Barbie’ Has a New Star in Max’s ASL Interpreter, Who Even Has a Sign for ‘Kenough’'

Quote

... “As a deaf person, [captions] still isn’t as natural. It still isn’t a natural language,” Hanaumi said. “Ninety percent of deaf kids are born to hearing parents and many of them never have access to sign language at all. That is language deprivation, and it’s a serious issue in our community. Being able to provide ASL access is a way to just level the playing field and allow a Deaf viewer to access the movie with cultural conceptions that we are able to understand in a more natural way.” ...

 

[Trini]

It's been proven before, but one more time: there's money to be made in diversifying films:

'Hollywood Forfeits Up to $30B Every Year Because of Racial Inequity'

excerpts:

Quote

Beginning in 2021, the consulting firm McKinsey has published a series of reports exploring the entertainment industry’s representation and inclusion of historically excluded people. Along the way, the analysts totaled up the potential financial revenue that Hollywood could stand to gain if it adopted more culturally inclusive business solutions: $10 billion per year from closing the Black inequity gap, an eye-popping $12 billion to $18 billion from properly valuing Latino professionals and consumers, and — in the latest report released today, conducted in collaboration with Gold House — $2 billion to $4.4 billion from more effectively tapping the Asian and Pacific Islander market.

Quote

The latter figure is calculated based on U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics data that Asian Americans earn on average 30 percent more than non-Asian Americans but spend 35 percent less on media. Meanwhile, McKinsey’s own survey of API consumers found that nearly half would spend more money (49 percent) and time (47 percent) on film and television with more authentic representation. Put plainly: Asian Americans have a lot of money, and they would spend more of it on media if it better reflected them.

Quote

Secondly, although API representation in film leapt from 3 to 20 percent in the 20 years between 2002 and 2022, 85 percent of that recent representation is in movies produced outside the United States, and episodic television has seen similar trends. AAPIs (6.2 percent of the U.S. population) are still underrepresented by 50 percent in content made in their own country (3.4 percent of lead roles in U.S.-produced films), which means that the API faces seen onscreen do not necessarily reflect the experiences and perspectives of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders living here.

 

Direct link to the report: https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/from-margins-to-mainstream-asians-and-pacific-islanders-in-hollywood

[Trini]

Related; UCLA's report from March (Hollywood Reporter article): 'Movies With Proportionate Racial Representation Notched Highest Median ROI in 2023'

excerpts:

Quote

The theatrical releases that saw the highest median return on investment (ROI) in 2023 were those whose casts reflected racial representation proportionate to the real-world U.S. population, according to the latest Hollywood Diversity Report from UCLA.

Horror movies like M3GAN (14.0 ROI) and Saw X (7.5 ROI) were among the films whose casts were 41 to 50 percent BIPOC, the category with the highest median ROI (1.1). Conversely, the category with the lowest ROI (-0.25) was the least diverse (less than 11 percent BIPOC cast). According to U.S. census data, 43.6 percent of the country in 2023 was BIPOC.

Proportionately representative movies also earned a median of $114.2 million worldwide, the second highest median box office take behind only movies whose casts were 31 to 40 percent BIPOC ($119.8 million). That latter category included the billion-dollar Barbie ($1.4 billion, to be exact), which won the worldwide box office in 2023. The lowest-earning category was again the least diverse, with a median of just $18.2 million globally.

Quote

“After examining global and domestic box office success and audience demographics for more than a decade, we have repeatedly found that people want to see films that reflect the diversity that exists in their communities and in the world,” said report co-founder Ana-Christina Ramón, who directs UCLA’s Entertainment and Media Research Initiative, in a statement.

Quote

But film employment is not keeping pace with the diversifying audience. Women, BIPOC and disabled movie characters remained underrepresented compared to their real-world numbers, as were women and BIPOC directors and writers. Budgets of $100 million or more were given to 17 movies helmed by white men, 10 by BIPOC directors and just one by a white woman — Greta Gerwig, whose movie made the most money of them all.

 

Direct link to the Hollywood Diversity Report 2024, with more data and graphs:

https://socialsciences.ucla.edu/hollywood-diversity-report-2024/

[andromeda331]

On 4/24/2024 at 11:46 PM, Trini said:

It's been proven before, but one more time: there's money to be made in diversifying films:

'Hollywood Forfeits Up to $30B Every Year Because of Racial Inequity'

excerpts:

 

Direct link to the report: https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/from-margins-to-mainstream-asians-and-pacific-islanders-in-hollywood

No surprise to anyone except somehow Hollywood.