Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, Temperance said:

The 200 year plan was Doug Phillips, not Bill Gothard.  Doug Phillips had his own cult called Vision Forum. There was some interaction between the groups like when Phillips gave Michelle Duggar a "mother of the year" award, but they were separate groups. It's hard to say how much of Phillips' teachings the Duggars believe.

The Seewalds (Ben's parents) belonged to Vision Forum. The fall of Vision Forum happened right after Ben and Jessa married in 2014 before Joshgates happened. Doug Phillips was accused of sexual harrassment by his children's nanny. The fall of Vision Forum may have something to do with why some of Ben's siblings aren't as fundie as he is. 

Exactly right.

The dominionist thing, which comes in numerous forms other than the 200-year plan, started with other people, though. Phillips and Botkin and company just wanted to put their own stamp on it -- probably for business reasons! -- with the 200-year plan, I would bet.

Notably Rousas Rushdoony, for example, was at the center of the dominionist movement generally. And, beginning around the late 60s,  Rushdoony -- though he did it quietly -- also almost singlehandedly created and drove to a high level of acceptance and success the Christian homeschooling movement that's centered on the idea that the good Christians must keep their children separate from others so that the children can learn the right stuff, including what they'll need to take over this country's government and, ultimately, all governments, today and into the future. 

My sense is that most people in that sphere of Christian homeschooling all know all about that idea and embrace it, and many even know about Rushdoony and his writings and his history in these movements , although it's something they kind of keep under their hats because they know that other people are likely to consider the real facts about it a threat.

My guess is that it's in this way that JB came under the general spell of the Christian dominionist and nationalist idea. That's the idea of their homeschooling, I think -- not so much the "protect the kids' innocence and virtue" (although that's in the mix) but "keep the kids apart and teach them that they're apart and teach them the ways of gathering power unto themselves and taking that power from the heathens who have it now."

I actually think that a distorted version of this may be behind JB's crap about learning to be a plumber, or florist or building engineer by just watching people -- he's swallowed some hooey about how the homeschooling lessons and methods of people like Gothard can give those who carefully follow them some powers that verge on the magical -- that this is a special learning, far beyond what the heathen schools could ever teach -- only he takes that in a dumbheaded and kind of wrong way....because he's dumbheaded and simplistic....(Not that it's only JB, of course -- M probably knows about this too and sort of embraces it as far as her airheadedness can or will embrace such a thing...) 

While he didn't explicitly talk about dominionism or nationalism, Gothard absolutely stressed the idea that his followers' homeschooling activities were intended -- and designed by him -- to help their children gain temporal influence and power in society.

There are many accounts of Gothard promising the teens and young adults in his group that if they followed his homeschooling principles they would find that just as they were moving about in the world people who were not even conservative Christians would be struck by their specialness and offer them positions of influence. This was part of the point of it -- it really wasn't intended to just isolate families. The kids were supposed to be isolated so that their learning-as-a-way-of-becoming-powerful wouldn't be corrupted and diluted by the wrong stuff. And once they'd been educated, he preached that the world would see their glory and give them important positions -- where they'd be kind of conservative-Christian Trojan horses. 

Just like Phillips and Botkin, Gothard had his own little spin on Christian-dominionism-and-Christian-nationalism, and how to make them happen using homeschooling and other activities he recommended, and, like them, he didn't really use the dominionism/nationalism labels .... although they were the essence of what he was driving at.

When you look at it, it seems to me pretty clear that a lot of these major pro-homeschooling churches and cults are all on the same page about what the ultimate purpose of what they're doing it -- to give temporal power to the right sort of Christians -- because that's what Jesus wants. (It doesn't seem that everybody in this general camp is necessarily on the same side of the pre- or post-millennial debates -- i.e., whether Christians will establish a CHristian dominion on earth before or after JC returns...) But most of the groups are pushing homeschooling and other things for the purpose of gaining the power. Not just to keep themselves clean of heathen or "immoral" influences. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Churchhoney

[ouinason]

On 8/24/2020 at 5:56 AM, MunichNark said:

As a kind of Catholic, this whole "personal relationship with Jesus" thing weirds me out. He is not my best friend, the guy I hang out with to have a cuppa. It's just so weird. Where does this even come from?

We don't do any of that stuff, thankfully. A lot of people are cultural Catholic, they will have christenings and go to Church on Easter/Christmas, etc, so they aren't deeply into it.

I also don't get the rigidity of it - the Bible was never meant to be taken literally. It contradicts itself so many times, it plain makes no sense a lot of the time, you need to know context (as in ANY book you read). Does Jilly "feed your kids" R routinely sacrifice her firstborn, doesn't eat pork/shellfish, not wear mixed fibre? Does she? Like fuck she does.

I'm pretty sure that some of the Duggars have at least had niggling doubts, but they are so isolated and frankly dumb that it never goes any further. They are so enmeshed that any doubt would be hard to bear.

I don't have a testimony at all, it's never been required of me, in fact. I can't relate to the idea of a Father anyhow, which is probably why I struggle with that concept. Tried for years to "find God" but have yet to do so. I've now moved quite far from Catholicism really I notice, yet do still kind of believe in a God. I'd like to actually, I think faith is a great thing if lived properly. It just doesn't seem to happen for me so why force it, eh? Plus, I find that I'm just DONE with the idea of "suffer on earth forever because heaven is great", I'm just not into that anymore. I don't want to suffer every fucking day, I've already had my fill of that. I rather fancy the idea of a loving Father who is kind, gentle and yes, able to lead when needed. Not into the hell and damnation crew much.

 

I'm the opposite.  I'm SBC and I do not understand the whole praying to saints and intercession thing at all.  That and the crucifixes everywhere.  It seems like you are setting God aside and dealing with dead people instead, and I would think that using that symbol so much sort of shades into idolatry.  Plus it just creeps me out.

I also have issues that it took until the 1960s or something before Catholics started having Mass in the local language.  You would have to be a Latin scholar to understand what was being read to you before that point.  

Edited August 26, 2020 by ouinason

[crazycatlady58]

37 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I'm the opposite.  I'm SBC and I do not understand the whole praying to saints and intercession thing at all.  That and the crucifixes everywhere.  It seems like you are setting God aside and dealing with dead people instead, and I would think that using that symbol so much sort of shades into idolatry.  Plus it just creeps me out.

I also have issues that it took until the 1960s or something before Catholics started having Mass in the local language.  You would have to be a Latin scholar to understand what was being read to you before that point.  

Maybe you can talk with someone and find the meaning behind the things that bother you.

[Dimi1]

49 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I'm the opposite.  I'm SBC and I do not understand the whole praying to saints and intercession thing at all.  That and the crucifixes everywhere.  It seems like you are setting God aside and dealing with dead people instead, and I would think that using that symbol so much sort of shades into idolatry.  Plus it just creeps me out.

I also have issues that it took until the 1960s or something before Catholics started having Mass in the local language.  You would have to be a Latin scholar to understand what was being read to you before that point.  

I was raised Pagan Catholic..that is what I call it...lol..my Mom was really in to it...I crowned the blessed mother in a procession, made my first communion and the whole nine yards..I say I was raised pagan catholic because they had some strange rituals...like placing a can of green beans in mary's hand on the alter before the church picnic and praying- was writing your name on a piece of paper and putting it in the sacred glass case with baby Jesus we kept inside the home. I also remember we had mary outside in the yard inside and upright a cast iron tub half in the ground and when we needed to we would rub raw potatoes on wounds and would bury the potato near her...the list goes on..I left the catholic church  at  16   , much to my mothers dismay :)...I then became heavily involved in the occult with Carlos costonada as my mentor - writing and communicating with him..and was heavily involved with the metaphysical community in my area. all my friends were psychic, talked to dead people or their spirit guides when we went to dinner .as in I would be talking to a friend and they would look to their left and say "not now Rosa, can't you see I am eating"..the stories I could tell ..I left that behind when I was 20 due to something happening that scared the crap out of me..and I just want to edit to add...I am in no way bashing the catholics or catholic faith..my whole family is still catholic (oldest of 6) although most are not strict...and I will say growing up in the small neighborhood church community , I have fond memories of fun times and a tight knit community...but I was a smart kid and if you could not answer my questions "why" then I was out of there and no one could answer the why of a lot of things...hence my journey into the "dark realm"...but I finally had my questions answered and EXPERIENCED  the truth on a spiritual level..so all is good

Edited August 26, 2020 by Dimi1
add something

[ouinason]

I think all religions and faiths have some bits and pieces (large or small) that don't really make sense to others.  I figure that God understands either way and mind my own business as long at those things aren't harmful.  

 

But I do get irrationally angry when evangelicals quote the old testament to rationalize their hateful beliefs.  Even if those stories are the literal truth (which I don't personally think is possible) that was BEFORE Jesus.  Jesus who WIPED AWAY the old covenant and brought in a new covenant with GOD, a new TESTIMONY of GOD and a new and different relationship with him.  Like, unless you are Jewish then the Old Testament is there for us to learn from, not to live from.  If we were meant to live the Old Testament, then the New Testament wouldn't have been needed!

[MunichNark]

What's SBC?

Having a Latin Mass was to ensure everyone who went into any Church in any country would follow it, and not be having language issues. And no, you don't need to speak it to follow Mass, you'd learn. Just as you will learn responses when you attend Mass.

A cross is supposed to remind you of the sacrifice, not sure why you have such issues with it. Jesus did DIE for us, why would that cause issues for you? If that scares you, you may want to dig a bit deeper into yourself.

Other than that, I'd suggest you read up on Catholicism if you're that interested. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in that respect.

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, MunichNark said:

What's SBC?

Having a Latin Mass was to ensure everyone who went into any Church in any country would follow it, and not be having language issues. And no, you don't need to speak it to follow Mass, you'd learn. Just as you will learn responses when you attend Mass.

A cross is supposed to remind you of the sacrifice, not sure why you have such issues with it. Jesus did DIE for us, why would that cause issues for you? If that scares you, you may want to dig a bit deeper into yourself.

Other than that, I'd suggest you read up on Catholicism if you're that interested. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in that respect.

SBC stands for Southern Baptist Covention. It's the mainstream less severe version of what the Duggars believe. The Duggars are IFB. The I stands for Independent, meaning they don't follow the SBC. The F stands for Fundmentalist, meaning a more literal interpretation of the the bible and the B for Baptist, which means that theologically they share doctrine with other Baptists. They're extremely legalistic. It's the same fundie Catholics shared theology with my family, but had very different interpretations of what it means. 

Catholicism and Baptist are the two biggest denominations of Christianity in America.  And they have a lot in common. They don't ordain women. They're not as anti-gay as the fundies, but have a long way to go to fully accepting the LGBTQ community.  I won't say too much because of the rules politically they're pretty close as well. 

[Genevrier]

3 hours ago, MunichNark said:

Having a Latin Mass was to ensure everyone who went into any Church in any country would follow it, and not be having language issues.

Both Judaism and Islam still follow this practice, in Hebrew and Arabic respectively.

[Jynnan tonnix]

As an atheist who grew up Catholic, religion in general doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and never did. As far back as I can remember, it seemed to me that Bible stories were on a par with mythology and fairytales (with the latter being more interesting). 

If you go back to, say, Arthurian legends (which, if there was any truth to them, only go back about a thousand years at most), it's not entirely clear that King Arthur ever existed. It seems he was more likely an amalgam of several other regional leaders, and in any case, the legends surrounding him have clearly been embroidered or made up from whole cloth. Biblical (and other religions') stories go back a lot further than that. It seems practically impossible that tales that old would not have been subject to a whole lot of exaggeration over that span of time. And then there is the matter of how much personal interpretation is needed when it comes to stories involving the sort of mysticism and miracles which come as part and parcel...I just can't wrap my head around taking it all seriously or needing a God figure to make life meaningful. No offense to those who do, I just don't get it.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

As an atheist who grew up Catholic, religion in general doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and never did. As far back as I can remember, it seemed to me that Bible stories were on a par with mythology and fairytales (with the latter being more interesting). 

If you go back to, say, Arthurian legends (which, if there was any truth to them, only go back about a thousand years at most), it's not entirely clear that King Arthur ever existed. It seems he was more likely an amalgam of several other regional leaders, and in any case, the legends surrounding him have clearly been embroidered or made up from whole cloth. Biblical (and other religions') stories go back a lot further than that. It seems practically impossible that tales that old would not have been subject to a whole lot of exaggeration over that span of time. And then there is the matter of how much personal interpretation is needed when it comes to stories involving the sort of mysticism and miracles which come as part and parcel...I just can't wrap my head around taking it all seriously or needing a God figure to make life meaningful. No offense to those who do, I just don't get it.

I can't take offense because I know when I actually spell out my beliefs they sound ludicrous.  As a practicing Catholic, once a week I attend a service where I eat the flesh of my savior and drink his blood through the miracle of transubstantiation. And yet, I still believe and receive sustenance from Mass.  I have had experiences that have confirmed my beliefs, but again I cannot fully explain them.  

 As long as we treat each other with respect, I enjoy these conversations.   

[ouinason]

Crosses don't bother me, we have them in church and wear them as symbols, crucifixes are the ones that I find weird.  We are more "Jesus was resurrected" than "Jesus died".

[ouinason]

5 hours ago, Genevrier said:

Both Judaism and Islam still follow this practice, in Hebrew and Arabic respectively.

That makes sense for all three.  I just wasn't aware that all Catholics were taught Latin so they could understand.  Like, Jews send their kids to Hebrew school and a good majority of Muslims (not all obviously) actually speak Arabic.  From my understanding Latin wasn't taught that way to everyone back in the day.

[thehorseofpower]

8 hours ago, ouinason said:

Crosses don't bother me, we have them in church and wear them as symbols, crucifixes are the ones that I find weird.  We are more "Jesus was resurrected" than "Jesus died".

This reminds me of something my mother said many years ago. My parents were both raised Missouri Synod Lutheran and us kids grew up in those churches until I was 9 and we switched to the much more liberal United Church of Christ. On one of our first visits to the new church, my mother told me how happy she was that UCC didn't have pictures of Jesus being crucified everywhere like our former church did. She said she found it disturbing to have images of such profound suffering as the focus of the visual decor and much preferred the UCC's imagery of Jesus in life acting as a teacher and friend, with the empty cross as the symbol of resurrection. She preferred Jesus on the cross to be left to the imagination.

[rue721]

I was raised atheist, but have been slowly exploring Christianity over the past few years (but still not baptized, so can’t say I “am” a Christian). Faith is different for everybody. What prayer means is different for everybody.

Personally, I don’t understand how people can believe deeply in the presence of divinity in the universe and still feel SO unsure and rigid about their attempts to connect with that divinity. And don’t get me started on this weird Gothard stuff, I genuinely don’t understand. I’m very interested in people who are devoted to a specific cult with all kinds of esoteric, harsh rules and a strict hierarchy because, to me, all that goes against the fundamental enormity of faith or divinity itself?

But like I said, everyone experiences faith and the divine differently, all the way to not experiencing it at all, so...🤷🏻‍♀️

I have to say that the thing most intriguing thing to me about the Duggars is their devotion to this bizarre (to me) and hidden (to me) religion/cult and religious subculture.

[doodlebug]

22 hours ago, ouinason said:

I'm the opposite.  I'm SBC and I do not understand the whole praying to saints and intercession thing at all.  That and the crucifixes everywhere.  It seems like you are setting God aside and dealing with dead people instead, and I would think that using that symbol so much sort of shades into idolatry.  Plus it just creeps me out.

I also have issues that it took until the 1960s or something before Catholics started having Mass in the local language.  You would have to be a Latin scholar to understand what was being read to you before that point.  

As a Catholic, I understand why others don't understand the concept of saints, etc.  Here's the thing, most Christians, and probably many other faiths, understand the concept of group prayer. We often ask for friends and family to pray for us in times of crisis.  Well, that is kinda the deal with saints.  These are people who've run the race and won, they've made the Hall of Fame, so to speak and they're closer to God than the rest of us because they're in heaven.  So, we pray WITH the saints, asking them to help us in our prayers to God.  That's why various saints are categorized as to the sort of help they give.  Most of the time, the area of their expertise is something they dealt with in their time here on earth, so, since they overcame that issue, we hope they will guide us and pray for us as we deal with the same things.  It's like when you apply for a job in a new company and you find out someone you know already works there; so you ask them to put in a good word for you with the bosses.  Saints are literally friends in high places in the Catholic belief system.  The Blessed Mother, Mary, is most revered amongst the saints and we pray the rosary and otherwise ask her to intercede because we all know that Christ, being a good Jewish boy, always listens to his mother.

As for the statues and such, as you noted, for a long time, the Mass wasn't in the common language and many people attending were illiterate or close to it anyway.  The Church used statues, crucifixes, stained glass to tell the story of salvation to people who didn't have access to the language or education needed to read the Bible or understand the Latin Mass.  Much of it is downright beautiful, too.  I have a small Greek icon of the Annunciation that I sometimes use to pray because the beauty of the image, the details, the color; are spiritually uplifting to me.  I've got a rosary with wooden beads that is my favorite because it is beautiful, but also because I bought it in Assisi at the Basilica of St Francis, and it reminds me of a practically perfect day on the trip of a lifetime.  Just the feel of the beads in my hand helps me to focus and concentrate on the prayers I am saying.

I had an aunt who was a whiz at saints and their roles.  Whatever problem you were having, she would tell you who to ask for prayers.  My mother had severe vascular disease and ultimately lost both her legs. When she was facing surgery to try to save one of them, my aunt actually told me to pray for intercession to St Peregrine 'because he's the patron saint of bad legs'.  I still laugh about it, I thought she was joking.  She wasn't.  St Peregrine is indeed the patron saint of bad legs.  Also cancer.

Edited August 27, 2020 by doodlebug

[Nysha]

There are about 2000 gods currently being worshiped in the world right now. Most of them run on a theme of being a good person, everything else is theology not spirituality. People aren't good people because of their religious beliefs, they're good people because they're good people. Religions pick and choose what rules their members have to follow and the more extreme or weird the rule is, the more it's about control not salvation.

[crazycatlady58]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

As a Catholic, I understand why others don't understand the concept of saints, etc.  Here's the thing, most Christians, and probably many other faiths, understand the concept of group prayer. We often ask for friends and family to pray for us in times of crisis.  Well, that is kinda the deal with saints.  These are people who've run the race and won, they've made the Hall of Fame, so to speak and they're closer to God than the rest of us because they're in heaven.  So, we pray WITH the saints, asking them to help us in our prayers to God.  That's why various saints are categorized as to the sort of help they give.  Most of the time, the area of their expertise is something they dealt with in their time here on earth, so, since they overcame that issue, we hope they will guide us and pray for us as we deal with the same things.  It's like when you apply for a job in a new company and you find out someone you know already works there; so you ask them to put in a good word for you with the bosses.  Saints are literally friends in high places in the Catholic belief system.  The Blessed Mother, Mary, is most revered amongst the saints and we pray the rosary and otherwise ask her to intercede because we all know that Christ, being a good Jewish boy, always listens to his mother.

As for the statues and such, as you noted, for a long time, the Mass wasn't in the common language and many people attending were illiterate or close to it anyway.  The Church used statues, crucifixes, stained glass to tell the story of salvation to people who didn't have access to the language or education needed to read the Bible or understand the Latin Mass.  Much of it is downright beautiful, too.  I have a small Greek icon of the Annunciation that I sometimes use to pray because the beauty of the image, the details, the color; are spiritually uplifting to me.  I've got a rosary with wooden beads that is my favorite because it is beautiful, but also because I bought it in Assisi at the Basilica of St Francis, and it reminds me of a practically perfect day on the trip of a lifetime.  Just the feel of the beads in my hand helps me to focus and concentrate on the prayers I am saying.

I had an aunt who was a whiz at saints and their roles.  Whatever problem you were having, she would tell you who to ask for prayers.  My mother had severe vascular disease and ultimately lost both her legs. When she was facing surgery to try to save one of them, my aunt actually told me to pray for intercession to St Peregrine 'because he's the patron saint of bad legs'.  I still laugh about it, I thought she was joking.  She wasn't.  St Peregrine is indeed the patron saint of bad legs.  Also cancer.

I like St. Nickolas he covers a lot.

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

St Peregrine is indeed the patron saint of bad legs.  Also cancer.

I think I need him in my corner. My legs have been swelling since May and even with treatment the swelling continues. The tattoos on my leg are infected and after around of cephalexin didn't do anything I was put on sulfa antibiotics, which I think I'm allergic to because I'm getting little round sores on my legs. I had to see a wound doctor who tortured me by picking off every flaking scab and then digging into 4 of them to get a tissue sample. 

I have another appointment with the wound doctor on Friday and one with my primary doctor next Wednesday but I'm not sure if I should wait until Friday to discus the new sores or if I should call my doctor tomorrow. 

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I think I need him in my corner. My legs have been swelling since May and even with treatment the swelling continues. The tattoos on my leg are infected and after around of cephalexin didn't do anything I was put on sulfa antibiotics, which I think I'm allergic to because I'm getting little round sores on my legs. I had to see a wound doctor who tortured me by picking off every flaking scab and then digging into 4 of them to get a tissue sample. 

I have another appointment with the wound doctor on Friday and one with my primary doctor next Wednesday but I'm not sure if I should wait until Friday to discus the new sores or if I should call my doctor tomorrow. 

I think you should call tomorrow to ask, just to be on the safe side. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I was raised atheist, but have been slowly exploring Christianity over the past few years (but still not baptized, so can’t say I “am” a Christian). Faith is different for everybody. What prayer means is different for everybody.

Personally, I don’t understand how people can believe deeply in the presence of divinity in the universe and still feel SO unsure and rigid about their attempts to connect with that divinity. And don’t get me started on this weird Gothard stuff, I genuinely don’t understand. I’m very interested in people who are devoted to a specific cult with all kinds of esoteric, harsh rules and a strict hierarchy because, to me, all that goes against the fundamental enormity of faith or divinity itself?

But like I said, everyone experiences faith and the divine differently, all the way to not experiencing it at all, so...🤷🏻‍♀️

I have to say that the thing most intriguing thing to me about the Duggars is their devotion to this bizarre (to me) and hidden (to me) religion/cult and religious subculture.

Same here. I was raised in a Christian but with the happy God and Jesus who loves us and wants us to love everyone, help others and don't just or dislike anyone based on looks, faith, or anything else but base on what they do and say. Sure I was raised to believe that God created everything but still to this day I don't understand how that ended up meaning harsh rules, and being so fearful or focused on sin. I realize people believe differently. My family and I have always been taught that not only is that a good thing, but an exciting thing. This world is so big and full of so many different people, cultures, faiths, ideas, and what people can do. From building the pyramids, to figuring out the cause of diseases, to writing so many amazing stories, and creating beautiful art. God creating everything excites me and makes me want to explore as much of His Creation as a I can. To read as much as I can. There's just so much that's amazing. The oceans, the animals, and beyond Earth. To the different planets and moons. Its all amazing.  I really don't understand the fear and wanting to live in constant fear of everything.

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

There are about 2000 gods currently being worshiped in the world right now. Most of them run on a theme of being a good person, everything else is theology not spirituality. People aren't good people because of their religious beliefs, they're good people because they're good people. Religions pick and choose what rules their members have to follow and the more extreme or weird the rule is, the more it's about control not salvation.

100% agree.

[MargeGunderson]

Another Missouri Synod Lutheran here (I’m from solid German stock). I can still remember the confirmation class in which my pastor told the girls that we shouldn’t wear anything too tight or too loose, because either way the boys would be tempted. I noped out as soon as confirmation was over. I majored in religious studies as an undergrad and have a master’s in theological studies, but am an atheist. Religion just doesn’t do anything for me. I’ve never felt any emotional connection to a higher power of any kind. I think I’m just not wired that way. 

[ginger90]

9 hours ago, Nysha said:

I think I need him in my corner. My legs have been swelling since May and even with treatment the swelling continues. The tattoos on my leg are infected and after around of cephalexin didn't do anything I was put on sulfa antibiotics, which I think I'm allergic to because I'm getting little round sores on my legs. I had to see a wound doctor who tortured me by picking off every flaking scab and then digging into 4 of them to get a tissue sample. 

I have another appointment with the wound doctor on Friday and one with my primary doctor next Wednesday but I'm not sure if I should wait until Friday to discus the new sores or if I should call my doctor tomorrow. 

Have you been diagnosed with  Vasculitis?

[GeeGolly]

I find it fascinating that our small group here, has such similar and vastly different exposure, thoughts and beliefs in regard to faith.

It seems many agree the organized, 'man-made' parts, are where folks start veering away.

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Same here. I was raised in a Christian but with the happy God and Jesus who loves us and wants us to love everyone, help others and don't just or dislike anyone based on looks, faith, or anything else but base on what they do and say. Sure I was raised to believe that God created everything but still to this day I don't understand how that ended up meaning harsh rules, and being so fearful or focused on sin. I realize people believe differently. My family and I have always been taught that not only is that a good thing, but an exciting thing. This world is so big and full of so many different people, cultures, faiths, ideas, and what people can do. From building the pyramids, to figuring out the cause of diseases, to writing so many amazing stories, and creating beautiful art. God creating everything excites me and makes me want to explore as much of His Creation as a I can. To read as much as I can. There's just so much that's amazing. The oceans, the animals, and beyond Earth. To the different planets and moons. Its all amazing.  I really don't understand the fear and wanting to live in constant fear of everything.

I think most people create God (the god of their sect) in their own image .... or partly in their own image and partly in the image of what they most need and crave.

Clearly the vast differences in Christian sects (and those in other faiths) can't primarily result from people logically drawing conclusions from meticulously interpreted texts. Theology kind of pretends or hopes that religions emerge that way, but they couldn't vary so widely or include such extraneous ideas (often) if that were the whole story or even the main story.

Anxious, fearful people find safety in being hedged about by ultra-specific rules and standards, I think. So they're drawn to heavily rule-based situations and groups.

God's the top and God's the best, so obviously the top and the best will give you the world that you most want.

If you wouldn't want a Gothard legalistic world, it's hard to believe that anyone would. But human personalities vary to an extent that's really hard to comprehend, I think.

ETA: Sorry. Gothard was just in my mind because we're talking about the Duggars. I don't intend any of this to be about cults but only about the different sects/groups/theologies/etc that every large faith has multiplied into.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

If you wouldn't want a Gothard world, it's hard to believe that anyone would. But human personalities vary to an extent that's really hard to comprehend, I think.

I think with cults, you have to factor in much more than individual personalities. You need to account for timing/vulnerability, cult promises, cult fulfillment, spiritual wants/beliefs, etc.

[Churchhoney]

34 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think with cults, you have to factor in much more than individual personalities. You need to account for timing/vulnerability, cult promises, cult fulfillment, spiritual wants/beliefs, etc.

Definitely.

I'm not talking about just cults, or even primarily cults, though.  I'm talking about the vast sectoral differences among things that aren't really cults, but just different theologies and "denominations" and such. Most religious choices that have been made through history haven't been about cults, as far as I can tell.

Luther and Calvin and their ilk didn't start cults, for example -- but different people were attracted to one guy's theology and moral philosophy and so on and not to the slightly varying theology/moral teachings/etc of the other guy. Similarly -- reform Jew, conservative Jew, etc. Just about every big religion seems to have these slightly varying branches.

Granted, a lot of people fall into these branches and denominations because their parents did -- but somebody was attracted to that particular branch or sect of a religion in the first place and attracted enough to stay in it. And people do shift on their own away from the sects/denominations/affiliations that their parents were in. And seldom or never are people attracted to the Lutheran approach or to the conservative synagogue rather than the reform one in the way that you're drawn to a cult....People have chosen among theologies and styles of religion, always.

And that kind of choice doesn't have all that vulnerability and cult promises and all that stuff going on. It  just seems to relate to differences in what wants each individual has and what things appeal to them with their particular personalities.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

34 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Definitely.

I'm not talking about just cults, or even primarily cults, though.  I'm talking about the vast sectoral differences among things that aren't really cults, but just different theologies and "denominations" and such. Most religious choices that have been made through history haven't been about cults, as far as I can tell.

Luther and Calvin and their ilk didn't start cults, for example -- but different people were attracted to one guy's theology and moral philosophy and so on and not to the slightly varying theology/moral teachings/etc of the other guy. Similarly -- reform Jew, conservative Jew, etc. Just about every big religion seems to have these slightly varying branches.

Granted, a lot of people fall into these branches and denominations because their parents did -- but somebody was attracted to that particular branch or sect of a religion in the first place and attracted enough to stay in it. And people do shift on their own away from the sects/denominations/affiliations that their parents were in. And seldom or never are people attracted to the Lutheran approach or to the conservative synagogue rather than the reform one in the way that you're drawn to a cult....People have chosen among theologies and styles of religion, always.

And that kind of choice doesn't have all that vulnerability and cult promises and all that stuff going on. It  just seems to relate to differences in what wants each individual has and what things appeal to them with their particular personalities.

Yes, as per my post, I was responding to what you said about Gothard.

[rue721]

I think you can have faith without theology and theology without faith (and, of course, also all kinds of combinations in between!).

The faith part of the equation is more abstract and less controllable, and I think for some people that’s too much or just not something they connect with emotionally/personally. So they double down on the theology instead. That’s where you get religiously observant atheists, at the extreme end. And in some religions that’s actually totally OK — it’s OK to practice the religion and let the faith question just sort of resolve itself.

And some people create an incredibly demanding theology as a way of keeping others too busy to think, too belittled to think, and therefore perpetually under their thumb. That’s where patriarchal cults like Gothard’s or, frankly, MacArthur’s church falls for me.

Although, to be fair, I’m not quite clear what the line is between what (in my opinion, anyway) is abusive “theology” and what is a cult. I mean, I think MacArthur’s teachings (especially about gender) are abusive and corrosive but I wouldn’t say his church is a cult per se?

But I was also raised to be extremely wary of religion, so when I started having more spiritual feelings/experiences, I didn’t know what to do! Finally I realized that faith isn’t theology, and it’s OK to separate them a bit, and to have different expectations for each of them.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Yes, as per my post, I was responding to what you said about Gothard.

Yeah, the Gothard word was a word I used in error. 

In the post as a whole, I wasn't referring to cults but just talking about different churches, such as about more legalistic, specific-rules-driven churches vs. other  kinds. We're just used to talking about Gothard around here so the word slipped out. Didn't mean to be discussing cults. I've changed it now. And, as you see, explained what I was really talking about in the second post. ..... And I agree completely with what you said about cults. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Churchhoney

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

Another Missouri Synod Lutheran here (I’m from solid German stock). I can still remember the confirmation class in which my pastor told the girls that we shouldn’t wear anything too tight or too loose, because either way the boys would be tempted. I noped out as soon as confirmation was over. I majored in religious studies as an undergrad and have a master’s in theological studies, but am an atheist. Religion just doesn’t do anything for me. I’ve never felt any emotional connection to a higher power of any kind. I think I’m just not wired that way. 

I realize it is none of my business, but I find it fascinating that an atheist would make religion and theology the focus of their higher education.  Any insight as to why you chose that course?

[Churchhoney]

49 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think you can have faith without theology and theology without faith (and, of course, also all kinds of combinations in between!).

The faith part of the equation is more abstract and less controllable, and I think for some people that’s too much or just not something they connect with emotionally/personally. So they double down on the theology instead. That’s where you get religiously observant atheists, at the extreme end. And in some religions that’s actually totally OK — it’s OK to practice the religion and let the faith question just sort of resolve itself.

And some people create an incredibly demanding theology as a way of keeping others too busy to think, too belittled to think, and therefore perpetually under their thumb. That’s where patriarchal cults like Gothard’s or, frankly, MacArthur’s church falls for me.

Although, to be fair, I’m not quite clear what the line is between what (in my opinion, anyway) is abusive “theology” and what is a cult. I mean, I think MacArthur’s teachings (especially about gender) are abusive and corrosive but I wouldn’t say his church is a cult per se?

But I was also raised to be extremely wary of religion, so when I started having more spiritual feelings/experiences, I didn’t know what to do! Finally I realized that faith isn’t theology, and it’s OK to separate them a bit, and to have different expectations for each of them.

All this makes sense to me, but when I start thinking about faith and spirituality together, I get really confused. 

For me, faith and spirituality aren't really the same thing at all. Or even very similar. They're both aimed in the same direction, obviously, but they seem to me to be quite different in terms of what they mean for the human involved in them. 

To me, spirituality, as you suggest, seems to almost always imply some kind of feelings or brain states -- it seems to tie to a feeling or some kind of awareness that you're somehow apprehending something beyond what your senses and reason comprehend or grasp. And it also seems to refer to one's means of getting to that apprehension of things beyond you. It's got the flavor of the Bellini sculpture of St. Teresa. It's an experience of some kind, or a discipline aimed at getting such an experience.

On the other hand, faith, as it seems to me it's usually defined, isn't a feeling but an act -- basically a decision and determination to believe in the existence of something beyond what your senses and reason observe (or even something your senses and reason deny or declare false) and a further determination to act in accordance with that belief, even if you sometimes doubt it or even think you're spiritually apprehending that it's not true. 

And you can have faith in something you've spiritually apprehended yourself, initially, I guess. But most of the talk about faith that I hear -- and what I think is probably the essence of faith as people generally define it -- seems to me  about having faith in a something/someone beyond that someone else has defined. God as defined by the particular creed that your Christian church recites, for example. 

Today, it seems to me that there are many Christian sects/denominations/ branches that embrace faith (as I think it's defined) very strongly and spirituality (as I think it's defined) not at all or just barely....Prayer and hymns seem as if they might be the spiritual aspects of the American Christian groups -- but I'm not sure how much they're treated that way.....I feel as if prayer is seen more as transactional than spiritual in most cases -- or as duty you perform because of your faith -- and most music seems to me to be primarily group affirmations of faith, not anything aimed at spiritual apprehension of deeper things either. 

And then there are some Christian groups -- but fewer-- that emphasize spirituality quite a bit. You certainly see it in contemplative monasteries and convents and you see it in Friends, I think. But not many Christian groups (today, at least, and in the U.S., at least) incorporate meditation of any kind in their structures, for example. And to me meditation is a spiritual thing.....a route to personal spiritual apprehension of something or to a feeling (for lack of a better word) of your existence as being in a spiritual realm somehow, beyond what reasons and your senses can grab.

Whereas in some other religions, the relative place of spirituality and faith seem to be quite the opposite -- lots of groups focused on spirituality and fewer on faith as it tends to look in most of our Christian churches. 

It's a confusing world (and otherworld). I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the Duggars say really confused and confusing things, too!

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Bewitched]

35 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I realize it is none of my business, but I find it fascinating that an atheist would make religion and theology the focus of their higher education.  Any insight as to why you chose that course?

My religion professor in college was an atheist.  I felt he could teach the history of things with less bias than someone with a strong faith tradition that may influence him.  That is simply my opinion, I'm sure that others have had different experiences.

[GeeGolly]

45 minutes ago, Bewitched said:

My religion professor in college was an atheist.  I felt he could teach the history of things with less bias than someone with a strong faith tradition that may influence him.  That is simply my opinion, I'm sure that others have had different experiences.

And many degrees are areas of interest. A respiratory therapist without pulmonary issues, a male OB, art history major with no artistic talent, etc.

[Zella]

56 minutes ago, Bewitched said:

My religion professor in college was an atheist.  I felt he could teach the history of things with less bias than someone with a strong faith tradition that may influence him.  That is simply my opinion, I'm sure that others have had different experiences.

At a community college, I took a World Religions class from a guy whom I'm pretty sure was either an atheist or agnostic. He was always very respectful whenever he talked about any religion, and yeah he talked about the whole thing without any real bias. It was an experience that I enjoyed more than most of the religion classes I took elsewhere at a religious college. 

[MargeGunderson]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I realize it is none of my business, but I find it fascinating that an atheist would make religion and theology the focus of their higher education.  Any insight as to why you chose that course?

Perfectly fair question! The rather boring answer is that I found it an interesting subject. I liked reading about how all of these theologians tried to explain the unexplainable. I’m sure part of me was looking for something that resonated with me on a personal level, the way that religion resonates with most other people. When I got to graduate school I was looking more at the intersection of religion and society In the US from a historical perspective. I loved 19th and 20th century religious movements - the spiritualists, the Mormons, etc. This also explains why I frequent this board and the Sister Wives. 

[Nysha]

On 8/27/2020 at 5:19 AM, ginger90 said:

Have you been diagnosed with  Vasculitis?

No, lymphatic edema. I'm supposed to have physical therapy for it, but at the first session she took one look at my tattoos and said they looked infected. Now that it's not MRSA, Staph, or a viral infection I can go back and see what kind of torture she's going to put me through.

[doodlebug]

God smites another one:

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-anti-mask-idaho-pastor-icu-20200917-w3m3gwuczrgbxb2f35t6wf2jum-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2KgOF_42zbmPpcm0f1FPAoQZZZw4tdTJaQ8H5DIz1EvmHMXuqCCxSo6c0

Not to worry though.  Members of his congregation are holding a prayer vigil the hospital-maskless of course.

[GeeGolly]

40 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

God smites another one:

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-anti-mask-idaho-pastor-icu-20200917-w3m3gwuczrgbxb2f35t6wf2jum-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2KgOF_42zbmPpcm0f1FPAoQZZZw4tdTJaQ8H5DIz1EvmHMXuqCCxSo6c0

Not to worry though.  Members of his congregation are holding a prayer vigil the hospital-maskless of course.

There's also one flying around Maine, spreading covid.

[emmawoodhouse]

47 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

God smites another one:

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-anti-mask-idaho-pastor-icu-20200917-w3m3gwuczrgbxb2f35t6wf2jum-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2KgOF_42zbmPpcm0f1FPAoQZZZw4tdTJaQ8H5DIz1EvmHMXuqCCxSo6c0

Not to worry though.  Members of his congregation are holding a prayer vigil the hospital-maskless of course.

I hope this clown has good insurance. Two weeks in the ICU is nothing to sneeze at. Somehow, I doubt it.

[ouinason]

Today I have decided that there is more than one Southern Baptist Convention.  Apparently there is one that is all about conversion and does nothing to actually help people, and there is mine which digs wells in India, feeds homeless and poor people in the community, raises money for disaster relief all over the world and has pastors who give money out of their own pockets while working a full time job as well as being available 24 hours a day to the congregation for anything they might need at 4am.  Maybe my churches are weird, I don't know.

[questionfear]

53 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I basically agree with you about this. I think we should find out what groups we belong to actually believe and either leave the groups or try hard to change the groups' ways from within if we think they're wrong about something.

 But I also think that virtually all of us would be condemned if we were held to this standard! -- whether for churches, political parties, community groups.......

We tend to join groups as at least partly a social thing, very much an emotional thing based on the feeling they give us, because our friends and neighbors and families belong to a given group, or that we strongly believe in or resonate with the group's primary ideas and haven't ever looked at the many smaller ones that are the books...... 

And it's an especially tough call to ask people to leave groups whose main ideas are good things -- but who have other ones that go with them. ....  I mean, I think most people enter or remain in Christian churches because they embrace the top-line ideas about faith and love and so on and don't even encounter a lot of the other stuff regularly. Christian churches don't generally have the same top-line principles as Nazis! 

It's just a tough call is all.  And most of us aren't analytical enough or brave enough to leave groups over a few things that we disagree with.......I agree that we should be.....But I'm pretty sure that's not the usual level of human operation. 

Especially hard, to me, for someone like Jill at this point, who's already faced with leaving her family, which for most people is the hardest leaving of all.....I'm going to give her some more years before I declare that she has to subject her new church to a purity test, too. For me, she's got enough to rethink and readjust right now! 

I'm pulling this from the Jill thread to avoid derailing it. 

I bolded your part about Christian churches and Nazis because while I'd love for that to be true, I think there's definitely a subset that do have the same principles. Not mainstream churches, and probably not even SBC where Jill and Derrick go (I don't know enough about their church but I mean the overall organization), but IBLP and the other fundie offshoots? 100% that I'm going to assume anyone who belongs to a church like that is aligned politically with racists/homophobes/anti-semites/islamaphobes. 

And I think this is a case where you're judged by the company you keep. If someone keeps going to a church that preaches that sort of attitude, you start to wonder about them, since there's plenty of Christian denominations that don't treat minorities like crap or deny the basic human rights existence of trans people. 

Frankly, I assume all Duggar/Duggar-adjacents are socially conservative to a point that makes me deeply uncomfortable. If cousin Amy felt differently she'd be posting about it like she did with blanket training for example. Just my .02. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

I'm pulling this from the Jill thread to avoid derailing it. 

I bolded your part about Christian churches and Nazis because while I'd love for that to be true, I think there's definitely a subset that do have the same principles. Not mainstream churches, and probably not even SBC where Jill and Derrick go (I don't know enough about their church but I mean the overall organization), but IBLP and the other fundie offshoots? 100% that I'm going to assume anyone who belongs to a church like that is aligned politically with racists/homophobes/anti-semites/islamaphobes. 

And I think this is a case where you're judged by the company you keep. If someone keeps going to a church that preaches that sort of attitude, you start to wonder about them, since there's plenty of Christian denominations that don't treat minorities like crap or deny the basic human rights existence of trans people. 

Frankly, I assume all Duggar/Duggar-adjacents are socially conservative to a point that makes me deeply uncomfortable. If cousin Amy felt differently she'd be posting about it like she did with blanket training for example. Just my .02. 

Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy with what you're saying!

Still, for me it's too tough a call to say that leaving a Christian church on principle is on exactly the same plane as leaving the Nazi party on principle.

That's because I doubt that many Christian churches were formed for the purpose of being hateful and running people out. I think the fervent embrace of those ideas probably came about more just as an unfortunate result of a church attracting a lot of people with personalities that are fearful, grumpy, greedy, uppity and angry in personality. And having a majority of people with such personalities in one group would push the ideas and practices that can turn hateful and discriminatory to the top....

Whereas -- do I think the Nazi party was formed for the purpose of driving out a group of people dubbed different? Yeah.

So, is it a huge difference? Nope. But is it a difference large enough to be of some significance? To me, yeah.

As for there being a lot of Christian groups that accept transgender people as equals, I'm not so sure. To me, the standard of equality for a church means you say clearly that a transgender person can be a member of the clergy. And by Wikipedia's count (so, of course, it may not be complete), here are the churches worldwide that do have that standard of equality. Not a tremendous number have a presence in the U.S., but, you know, some.

Alliance of Baptists[58]

American Baptist Churches USA[59]

Anglican Church of Australia[60][61]

Anglican Church of Canada

Anglican Church of Southern Africa[62]

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)[63]

Church in Wales[64]

Church of Denmark[65]

Church of England[66][67]

Church of Norway

Church of South India[68]

Church of Sweden[69]

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship[59]

Episcopal Church[70]

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America[71]

Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada

Evangelical Church in Germany[72]

Evangelical Church of India

Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland[73]

Methodist Church of Great Britain[74]

Methodist Church of New Zealand[75]

Old Catholic Church[26]

Presbyterian Church (USA)[3]

Unitarian and Free Christian Churches

Unitarian Universalist Association

Uniting Church in Australia

United Church of Canada

United Church of Christ[3]

United Methodist Church[76][77]

Uniting Reformed Church in Southern Africa (Southern Synod)[78]

Scottish Episcopal Church

Edited September 25, 2020 by Churchhoney

[ouinason]

That's fair enough.  SBC doesn't even let women preach if they are cis, so I think they would have serious trouble with a trans pastor.  

[questionfear]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:28 PM, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy with what you're saying!

Still, for me it's too tough a call to say that leaving a Christian church on principle is on exactly the same plane as leaving the Nazi party on principle.

That's because I doubt that many Christian churches were formed for the purpose of being hateful and running people out. I think the fervent embrace of those ideas probably came about more just as an unfortunate result of a church attracting a lot of people with personalities that are fearful, grumpy, greedy, uppity and angry in personality. And having a majority of people with such personalities in one group would push the ideas and practices that can turn hateful and discriminatory to the top....

Whereas -- do I think the Nazi party was formed for the purpose of driving out a group of people dubbed different? Yeah.

So, is it a huge difference? Nope. But is it a difference large enough to be of some significance? To me, yeah.

As for there being a lot of Christian groups that accept transgender people as equals, I'm not so sure. To me, the standard of equality for a church means you say clearly that a transgender person can be a member of the clergy. And by Wikipedia's count (so, of course, it may not be complete), here are the churches worldwide that do have that standard of equality. Not a tremendous number have a presence in the U.S., but, you know, some.

Alliance of Baptists[58]

American Baptist Churches USA[59]

Anglican Church of Australia[60][61]

Anglican Church of Canada

Anglican Church of Southern Africa[62]

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)[63]

Church in Wales[64]

Church of Denmark[65]

Church of England[66][67]

Church of Norway

Church of South India[68]

Church of Sweden[69]

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship[59]

Episcopal Church[70]

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America[71]

Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada

Evangelical Church in Germany[72]

Evangelical Church of India

Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland[73]

Methodist Church of Great Britain[74]

Methodist Church of New Zealand[75]

Old Catholic Church[26]

Presbyterian Church (USA)[3]

Unitarian and Free Christian Churches

Unitarian Universalist Association

Uniting Church in Australia

United Church of Canada

United Church of Christ[3]

United Methodist Church[76][77]

Uniting Reformed Church in Southern Africa (Southern Synod)[78]

Scottish Episcopal Church

Good points! And I appreciate you finding the list of churches that DO allow trans clergy, that's fascinating. 

I'll fully admit I sometimes have trouble keeping track of the many splintered denominations of Christianity. I'm a Reform Jew, and Judaism is a lot simpler (when you focus on mainstream American Judaism at least). If you're in the Reform movement, clergy can be LGBTQ, and have been accepted and supported as such for over 40 years. I'm not as well-versed in Conservative Judaism, but my understanding is that their national leadership and seminaries will accept and ordain LGBTQ rabbis and cantors. And Reconstructionist, which is a small portion of the Jewish population, also supports ordination and involvement of LGBTQ clergy. 

That doesn't mean that every individual synagogue would hire or support an LGBTQ rabbi or cantor (sadly), but three out of the four major branches of Judaism in the USA are united on that front. 

[GeeGolly]

I have a question. I want to qualify it with, I'm just curious, no judgment.

For those of you who are born again, would Googling your name lead one to your story of being saved?

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I have a question. I want to qualify it with, I'm just curious, no judgment.

For those of you who are born again, would Googling your name lead one to your story of being saved?

A definite no for me.

[Churchhoney]

You and your gang aren't immune, JB, MacArthur, JillR, et al....But I guess "arrogant, paranoid and incapable of learning" describes many of you pretty well.

If these maniacs get their way, a million people will die and the free-market economy they love so much will never get back on its feet. Turns out ignoring logic your whole life isn't such a good idea. 

Associate Pastor Of Church That Defied California COVID-19 Regulations Has Died

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/water-of-life-church-associate-pastor-dies-coronavirus-california_n_5fcabfc0c5b626e08a2a032d

Bryant, 58, who was married and had four children, will be honored at a memorial service Monday inside the church, according to its website, again in defiance of health regulations. 

Bryant suffered “aggressive pneumonia” and a heart attack, and was placed on a ventilator, according to a Facebook post by his wife, Lori Snider Bryant. 

Dan Carroll, senior pastor of the 20,000-member Water of Life church, didn’t address the controversy over the church’s decision to ignore health regulations.

“It’s very painful,” Carroll said of Bryant’s death in an interview with KABC. “The whole COVID experience is very painful.”

Carroll was one of several church leaders who signed a letter in mid-May vowing to reopen his church regardless of state restrictions designed to help stem the tide of COVID-19 infections.

“We’re not here to be activists, we’re not here to be rebels; we’re here to be helpers,” Carroll said at a news conference at the time. He complained that “Californians of faith” felt as if they’d been “kicked to the curb” and “marginalized.”

Edited December 5, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

26 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

You and your gang aren't immune, JB, MacArthur, JillR, et al....But I guess "arrogant, paranoid and incapable of learning" describes many of you pretty well.

If these maniacs get their way, a million people will die and the free-market economy they love so much will never get back on its feet. Turns out ignoring logic your whole life isn't such a good idea. 

Associate Pastor Of Church That Defied California COVID-19 Regulations Has Died

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/water-of-life-church-associate-pastor-dies-coronavirus-california_n_5fcabfc0c5b626e08a2a032d

Bryant, 58, who was married and had four children, will be honored at a memorial service Monday inside the church, according to its website, again in defiance of health regulations. 

Bryant suffered “aggressive pneumonia” and a heart attack, and was placed on a ventilator, according to a Facebook post by his wife, Lori Snider Bryant. 

Dan Carroll, senior pastor of the 20,000-member Water of Life church, didn’t address the controversy over the church’s decision to ignore health regulations.

“It’s very painful,” Carroll said of Bryant’s death in an interview with KABC. “The whole COVID experience is very painful.”

Carroll was one of several church leaders who signed a letter in mid-May vowing to reopen his church regardless of state restrictions designed to help stem the tide of COVID-19 infections.

“We’re not here to be activists, we’re not here to be rebels; we’re here to be helpers,” Carroll said at a news conference at the time. He complained that “Californians of faith” felt as if they’d been “kicked to the curb” and “marginalized.”

Notice how they say he contracted covid on vacation. I kind of doubt that is true, but anyway he kept working right up until he was hospitalized.

These folks are self-righteous, selfish assholes.

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

“We’re not here to be activists, we’re not here to be rebels; we’re here to be helpers,” Carroll said at a news conference at the time. He complained that “Californians of faith” felt as if they’d been “kicked to the curb” and “marginalized.”

Ugh, not everything is about you, dude!

A couple years ago I read the book Into Thin Air, a nonfiction book about an ill-fated expedition to climb Everest. What was striking was the hubris of the climbers — in their minds, their lives were tidy movie narratives with each of them starring as the heroic lead. Climbing Everest was going to be yet another triumph in the story of their lives. Well, Mother Nature doesn’t work like that. Mother Nature does what she wants and doesn’t give a shit about your personal narrative, or who you think you are. So a lot of those climbers died or were badly maimed.

A virus doesn’t care what this pastor thinks of himself or his political ambitions or whatever. It’s just going to do what it’s going to do; and what it does is maim and kill people. The fact that this pastor can’t step out of his own head enough to see that... smh. Egomania and hubris.