Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Minivanessa]

19 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I’m sorry, but I am cracking up at the mention of the ebil troll doll ! 🤣

I know. It's so stupid that it's funny. Well, except it's also creepy. This is from the AMA, and I remember hearing this from other sources. Gothard actually taught that:

Quote

Xavier Roberts, the creator of Cabbage Patch Kids is a warlock who personally puts a demon into each doll so that they can possess you while you're asleep.

And there's this, which indicates the belief in evil spirits and demonic toys wasn't limited just to Gothard's brand of thinking:

Quote

There was a popular book being circulated in fundie circles “Satan in the Toy Box” or something like that. It popularized the idea that most toys were satanic and should not be played with. Many children were not allowed toys “with faces” because they were seen as potential portals for demons.

It's nutty, IMO. But more fodder for control freak parents, or parents who were terrified that their kids would be "lost" and corrupted by the wild ways of the secular culture. A great way for fundie leaders to terrify and control their flocks.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

I just reread the whole AMA in its entirety this evening, and honestly I feel a bit physically ill now. That shit about girls on their periods sleeping under lights and the sheer extent of sexual abuse in that organization is incredibly disturbing.

She also mentioned more than 1 murderer with IBLP ties. Anyone know what she was talking about? 

I don't know about that murderer bit.  That was also where she said that IBLP was more connected than what is widely known which I don't necessarily believe.  I have always gotten the impression that these guys ally themselves with other religious nutjobs to advance a shared goal, but they are not really that well connected.  Like how the Duggars stumped for Catholic Rick Santorum.  I just cannot see them being able to set aside their differences and egos long enough to really enact any change. 

The idea that they have enough influence to keep the police force and DA's office from investigating and prosecuting capital crimes like murder as well as paying off the local media to keep quiet is too far-fetched in my opinion.  Not to mention, the Pearls and their form of child abuse has been covered on I believe 20/20 already.  So you have Rusty and Andrea Yates being a national news story, at least one dead adopted black kid killed by parents following the Pearls methods hitting the national media, I'm sure there are more stories out there that I am forgetting.  She could be talking about children who died from neglect, being malnourished, receiving inadequate medical care, but I don't know.  These are people who isolate themselves from mandatory reporters, so there is probably not a case file on hand for the police to begin investigating.  

[Churchhoney]

I agree about the AMA woman likely having a slightly overblown idea about the Gothard level of influence. Perfectly understandable given the trauma she went through and saw others go through, of course. 

On the other hand I expect that, over the years, more tendrils of this crap have wound themselves into various public and private enterprises than we imagine, too. And once somebody capable of holding some kind of power enters a cult like this, i expect they will do everything in their power to spread the influence and protect the interests of that cult and, especially, its leaders...

I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle between her sense of it and ours. 

Here's Sonny Perdue, current U.S. Secretary of Agriculture (and former Georgia Governor for 8 years), for example -- 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2017/01/trumps-agriculture-secretary-pick-credits-serial-child-molester-spiritual-mentor.html

'Who is Perdue? In addition to being a former governor, he credits now-disgraced fundamentalist leader Bill Gothard as his spiritual mentor:

'“Nothing besides Scripture itself played a more important role in the daily guiding and leading of our family than Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles. We immersed ourselves in the clear but profound and practical wisdom delivered by God through Bill. I found every seminar and every piece of literature was produced impeccably in honor of the One whose message it delivered.”'

Brainwashed, delusional and fervently in support, or no? A big "yes," right? 

As the writer of this piece says, "Over the years, many have compared IBLP to a cult, and Gothard to a cult leader. He had that effect on people—he could command unswerving loyalty and unadulterated devotion, and render people willing to ignore the warning signs. And Perdue, it seems, is one of those who fell under his spell. I realize that none of this has anything to do with agriculture. It has a lot more to do with judgement, though—and a white old boys’ club willing to ignore those trampled underfoot."

And Gothard and his minions went out of their way to draw influential people into his group to the extent they could manage it, as do most other cult leaders -- with greater and less success, of course. Witness Scientology, for example. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Ohiopirate02]

25 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I agree about the AMA woman likely having a slightly overblown idea about the Gothard level of influence. Perfectly understandable given the trauma she went through and saw others go through, of course. 

On the other hand I expect that, over the years, more tendrils of this crap have wound themselves into various public and private enterprises than we imagine, too. And once somebody capable of holding some kind of power enters a cult like this, i expect they will do everything in their power to spread the influence and protect the interests of that cult and, especially, its leaders...

I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle between her sense of it and ours. 

I agree.  I could say a lot more, but my response gets too into politics for these boards.  Suffice to say, I believe that whatever power network that has been established is because of the anti-choice movement, and Mike Pence scares the shit out of me.  I hope this did not go too far.

[Zella]

I actually think she is likely right about the level of influence. People who have clout don't always have name recognition. And I could people with name recognition with more social awareness than the Duggars keeping an IBLP connection quiet. The AMA person's discussion about the sinister power of the homeschool lobby is completely accurate, and it would not surprise me if a fair number of IBLP allies have been made that way. 

I would be interested in the research she was talking about having collected over the past 5 years. She was talking about IBLP financial records that she had from a few years ago, and I suspect that makes for some eye-opening reading. 

[Nysha]

The men who are attracted to IBLP because it justifies their abusive nature and grooms their children to be willing victims are just as likely to be people in power as people in trailer homes. I think between Gothard's sex scandals and the Duggars, these people are not outwardly supportive but more than willing to help a good Christian organization that has taken the steps necessary to rid themselves of Gothard's sinful ways.

[BetyBee]

I read the Reddit AMA several days ago and can't get it out of my mind. I feel so bad for the innocent children in this cult. Because we have snarked in such detail, I was sorry to learn that much of what we suspect is actually true (according to the Reddit poster) and it's even worse than we suspected.  She sounded so messed up from what she'd been through (and is older than Josh and doesn't seem to know the Duggars personally, so I can understand her getting some facts wrong) and is still struggling today. Her parents sound like monsters. The family they wanted to marry her off to was awful too. It is astonishing to me how much abuse goes on in these various churches and cults. I feel sick to my stomach thinking of what innocent children go through.

I did feel that she didn't clarify what exactly JB's thoughts are on the marriages he makes for his kids. She repeatedly said that the Duggs don't have status for inter IBLP marriages. But she also made it sound like Pa Keller has achieved higher status marriages for his kids. I don't really think so. Esther is married to a fool. Anna is married to a sex pest and Nathan is dipping into the Rodrigues pool. None of that sounds to me like they are moving up the fundy ladder. Only Prissy has a "royal" Gothard marriage and what she says Pa Keller traded for that one makes it clear why Priscilla hesitated!  

It all just sounds awful!

[queenanne]

48 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I read the Reddit AMA several days ago and can't get it out of my mind. I feel so bad for the innocent children in this cult. Because we have snarked in such detail, I was sorry to learn that much of what we suspect is actually true (according to the Reddit poster) and it's even worse than we suspected.  She sounded so messed up from what she'd been through (and is older than Josh and doesn't seem to know the Duggars personally, so I can understand her getting some facts wrong) and is still struggling today. Her parents sound like monsters. The family they wanted to marry her off to was awful too. It is astonishing to me how much abuse goes on in these various churches and cults. I feel sick to my stomach thinking of what innocent children go through.

I did feel that she didn't clarify what exactly JB's thoughts are on the marriages he makes for his kids. She repeatedly said that the Duggs don't have status for inter IBLP marriages. But she also made it sound like Pa Keller has achieved higher status marriages for his kids. I don't really think so. Esther is married to a fool. Anna is married to a sex pest and Nathan is dipping into the Rodrigues pool. None of that sounds to me like they are moving up the fundy ladder. Only Prissy has a "royal" Gothard marriage and what she says Pa Keller traded for that one makes it clear why Priscilla hesitated!  

It all just sounds awful!

Didn’t she also say that Joy was the one who married best when she married into the Forsyths?  I remembered thinking... ‘Joy as the Elizabeth Bennet of her sister cohort... that is pretty unexpected.’  Maybe that’s because the Forsyths are making more bank at their camp than we heretofore suspected?

[Minivanessa]

I've been thinking about the Josh-Anna marriage in terms of the comments in that AMA. I think that Josh's behavior was known within certain circles, which ruined his chance to "marry up" into "ATI royalty." Because I bet the ATI movers and shakers knew; after all, he'd spent that summer at Gothard's facility in Little Rock or whatever that was.

But I think that knowledge of Josh's sexual assaults was limited, and not known across the whole ATI community. The redditor said she was surprised that Josh, a Duggar, wasn't marrying into ATI royalty. 

I recall watching a video about ATI/IBLP featuring a young woman who grew up in ATI. She said the Duggars were held up as superstars to the ATI followers. Before Joshgate hit, that is.

Oh, and I nearly laughed reading the AMA. When I read that Gothard would call large families (those with 12+ children) up on stage at those family conferences. And the Duggar parents were always the only ones who couldn't name all their kids. 🤣

 

[Absolom]

I have no faith in the redditor AMA.  Sad to say I recognize many features from one of the known internet fakers. 

[Zella]

41 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I have no faith in the redditor AMA.  Sad to say I recognize many features from one of the known internet fakers. 

What are the features that seemed suspect to you?

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I read the Reddit AMA several days ago and can't get it out of my mind. I feel so bad for the innocent children in this cult. Because we have snarked in such detail, I was sorry to learn that much of what we suspect is actually true (according to the Reddit poster) and it's even worse than we suspected.  She sounded so messed up from what she'd been through (and is older than Josh and doesn't seem to know the Duggars personally, so I can understand her getting some facts wrong) and is still struggling today. Her parents sound like monsters. The family they wanted to marry her off to was awful too. It is astonishing to me how much abuse goes on in these various churches and cults. I feel sick to my stomach thinking of what innocent children go through.

I did feel that she didn't clarify what exactly JB's thoughts are on the marriages he makes for his kids. She repeatedly said that the Duggs don't have status for inter IBLP marriages. But she also made it sound like Pa Keller has achieved higher status marriages for his kids. I don't really think so. Esther is married to a fool. Anna is married to a sex pest and Nathan is dipping into the Rodrigues pool. None of that sounds to me like they are moving up the fundy ladder. Only Prissy has a "royal" Gothard marriage and what she says Pa Keller traded for that one makes it clear why Priscilla hesitated!  

It all just sounds awful!

From what I gathered, I think the gist was that the Kellers in snagging David Waller and marrying into the Duggars had married up, but that because the Duggars have so far not married into one of the other prestigious families--thus, they always marry down--there is an issue, despite the Duggars being some of Gothard's favored pets. 

[Sew Sumi]

They not only married down, they married out. Not sure about the Caldwells (they may just be hardcore IFB), but all the other boys have stayed within the IBLP fold. But even the Swansons are at best equal to the Duggars in IBLP circles 

[Absolom]

30 minutes ago, Zella said:

What are the features that seemed suspect to you?

The story follows a pattern:  begin with common knowledge (things everyone who reads about the Duggars or Gothardites knows or can easily find out), after the audience is snared begin to add little details like she left rather than marry and ugly boy, when people are truly hooked then throw in the outrageous bits about people you claimed to not really know like Pa Keller being a human trafficker or talk about all the rape going on.  The liar of Bakersfield always, always eventually overplays her hand.  She also lied about being a FJ member under a certain name.  

The whole thing reads like some other stories that came out of mama's garage in Bakersfield.  

Edited December 20, 2019 by Absolom

[Sew Sumi]

Nice callback to Razing Ruth! 😀

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Absolom said:

The story follows a pattern:  begin with common knowledge (things everyone who reads about the Duggars or Gothardites knows or can easily find out), after the audience is snared begin to add little details, when people are truly hooked then throw in the outrageous bits about people you claimed to not really know like Pa Keller being a human trafficker.  She also lied about being a FJ member under a certain name.  

The whole thing reads like some other stories that came out of mama's garage in Bakersfield.  

Ah okay I see what you mean. 

[Absolom]

2 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Nice callback to Razing Ruth! 😀

Woman keeps turning up in my life and in some of the strangest places.  At least I recognize her faster as time goes on.  I was around on her first foray into internet lying.  I'm sure I've missed some of her incarnations.

[Sew Sumi]

Just now, Absolom said:

Woman keeps turning up in my life and in some of the strangest places.  At least I recognize her faster as time goes on.  I was around on her first foray into internet lying.  I'm sure I've missed some of her incarnations.

As have I. She's one sick puppy.

[Zella]

I've heard about Ruth on here before, but I was never around to witness directly any of her expeditions. 

[fonfereksglen]

18 minutes ago, Absolom said:

The story follows a pattern:  begin with common knowledge (things everyone who reads about the Duggars or Gothardites knows or can easily find out), after the audience is snared begin to add little details like she left rather than marry and ugly boy, when people are truly hooked then throw in the outrageous bits about people you claimed to not really know like Pa Keller being a human trafficker or talk about all the rape going on.  The liar of Bakersfield always, always eventually overplays her hand.  She also lied about being a FJ member under a certain name.  

The whole thing reads like some other stories that came out of mama's garage in Bakersfield.  

The vasectomy choir ..... oh please!

Reminds me of someone on the popular Gosselin forums from 10 years ago.

[Sew Sumi]

She had a blog for Ruth and played the long con. She got $$$ from many FJ members. 

5 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

The vasectomy choir ..... oh please!

Reminds me of someone on the popular Gosselin forums from 10 years ago.

Same lady did a "Gosselin insider" con.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[crazy8s]

28 minutes ago, Absolom said:

The story follows a pattern:  begin with common knowledge (things everyone who reads about the Duggars or Gothardites knows or can easily find out), after the audience is snared begin to add little details like she left rather than marry and ugly boy, when people are truly hooked then throw in the outrageous bits about people you claimed to not really know like Pa Keller being a human trafficker or talk about all the rape going on.  The liar of Bakersfield always, always eventually overplays her hand.  She also lied about being a FJ member under a certain name.  

The whole thing reads like some other stories that came out of mama's garage in Bakersfield.  

I was suspicious when it got to Gil Bates somehow had access to spend millions of Gothard/IBLP money.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm glad I checked out before that. Gil Bates is a lot of things, but a millionaire isn't one of them.

[Absolom]

I have the honor of her first internet con being stolen from part of the story of my life. Thankfully it's a minor portion of my life that can't easily be tracked to me.  She used the same pattern then of beginning with a story that was mostly grounded in reasonable, easily obtained facts.  Then she began the poor me kind of embroidery where only part of it rang true.  The end came with all kinds of outrageous frills.  Some crazy people sent her money and her internet lying career was launched.

[crazy8s]

3 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm glad I checked out before that. Gil Bates is a lot of things, but a millionaire isn't one of them.

i was skeptical on some of the things before that. but Gil Bates and the board or something having access to spend millions - I was like there's the tell for me, this is a fake

[Sew Sumi]

FJ members have confirmed that there has never been a member with the username she claimed. They don't delete accounts.

[Zella]

I have been reading some Razing Ruth stuff, and yeah, I can definitely see the similarities now. (Also just realized I do remember one of Ruth's alter-egos from when I was newbie here but I was so in and out at the time that I didn't get the full story, though I do remember she got on my nerves.)

I must confess, I feel hook, line, and sinker for this AMA, especially since Reddit said she was verified. There was one thing she said that did seem a bit weird to me, but I didn't think too much of it at the time.

Someone mentioned Tara Westover's Educated to her, and it seems like it had never occurred to her the similarities, and then she spoke about that book quite analytically, to the point she was obviously familiar with it and Westover's story, and then later claimed to be in a Ph.D. program herself. It probably wouldn't have stood out to me if I hadn't read Educated just a couple of months ago, and it has been on my mind a lot. But I remember thinking, why aren't you angling for a book deal if you want to tell this story? Publishers would eat up the next Educated. But of course now I realize that isn't going to be an option because they'll also want to fact-check you if you claim to have written the next Educated. 😉 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Zella

[awaken]

27 minutes ago, Zella said:

I have been reading some Razing Ruth stuff, and yeah, I can definitely see the similarities now. (Also just realized I do remember one of Ruth's alter-egos from when I was newbie here but I was so in and out at the time that I didn't get the full story, though I do remember she got on my nerves.)

GEML?

[crazycatlady58]

Just now, awaken said:

GEML?

I was thinking WonderWomen.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, awaken said:

GEML?

Oh was she another one? LOLOL I vaguely remember her. But I was thinking of wanderwoman. I lurked here over the summer of 2015 but didn't read the Small Talk forum much then. Every time I wandered over there, she had a sob-sad story. And I didn't necessarily doubt, but I also didn't necessarily believe. I had obviously missed a lot of context and chose to ignore it. I just double-checked, and she peaced out in October 2015, which would have been a few weeks after I finally caved and registered. I just remember being really confused. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Zella

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, fonfereksglen said:

The vasectomy choir ..... oh please!

Reminds me of someone on the popular Gosselin forums from 10 years ago.

From the 1995 Dallas Observer:

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/virgin-academy-6404353

The five functions, [Bill Gothard] explained, are for a woman to teach her children; to offer hospitality to guests; to possess a basic knowledge of medicine and healthcare, with special attention being given to natural childbirth (one of Gothard's stranger quests is to gather a 1,000-voice choir of children born into the world after their parents underwent reversal surgery for vasectomies and tubal ligations); to operate a home business; and finally, to teach others--"going out into the community and helping people."

Unless BG was trolling this reporter, I don't have difficulty extrapolating that a choir of far less than 1,000 people were collated at some point and shown around.

[Absolom]

I think GEML was just a garden variety liar.  She left after people began picking at her lies.

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Oh was she another one? LOLOL I vaguely remember her. But I was thinking of wanderwoman. I lurked here over the summer of 2015 but didn't read the Small Talk forum much then. Every time I wandered over there, she had a sob-sad story. And I didn't necessarily doubt, but I also didn't necessarily believe. I had obviously missed a lot of context and chose to ignore it. I just double-checked, and she peaced out in October 2015, which would have been a few weeks after I finally caved and registered. I just remember being really confused. 

Yes, I was totally irritated by her and complained to the mods, lol.

[Sew Sumi]

Oh man, I had forgotten all about wanderwoman!  What an unpleasant troll.

[Zella]

19 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yes, I was totally irritated by her and complained to the mods, lol.

 

3 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh man, I had forgotten all about wanderwoman!  What an unpleasant troll.

I blanked on her until I came across the username in reference to Ruth. After I checked her profile on here, it all came back to me. LOL Specifically, it was the GoFundMe that made me really uncomfortable though again I really had no clue what was going on because I was new, and the aftermath of that seems to have been when she skedaddled. 

[Sew Sumi]

I remember that we suspected that WW was also RR. Given how much RR, Gosselin Insider, etc. loved attention, it was an easy connection to make. The burning question was why did this person continue to impersonate young women who had escaped IBLP/ATI? 

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I remember that we suspected that WW was also RR. Given how much RR, Gosselin Insider, etc. loved attention, it was an easy connection to make. The burning question was why did this person continue to impersonate young women who had escaped IBLP/ATI? 

Based on my own experience of dealing with weird fakers, both online and in person, I think it is probably a matter of already having the lingo down pat, and it being something that is unusual enough that you're not going to have tons of people calling you out on your BS from their own personal experience and that there is a built-in sympathy factor.

Most of the folks I have dealt with who pull stuff like this go more the medical route (faking cancer or pretending to be suicidal--yes, I had someone do that to me on another forum), but they always conveniently drop any syndrome or condition that you yourself are familiar with, so they often inch toward rarer things that people are less likely to know and recognize factual errors on. I think she knows there is an interest in IBLP/ATI survivors but there also doesn't seem to be many of them who speak publicly about their experiences, so if you know the basic facts, you can spin a very sad tale that people are inclined to believe but not many people are in a position to call you out on from direct personal experience. 

It's a really bizarre hobby to have, though, for sure. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Zella

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, queenanne said:

Didn’t she also say that Joy was the one who married best when she married into the Forsyths?  I remembered thinking... ‘Joy as the Elizabeth Bennet of her sister cohort... that is pretty unexpected.’  Maybe that’s because the Forsyths are making more bank at their camp than we heretofore suspected?

Austin was raised with IBLP. His parents either joined later in life or weren't quiverfull, but out of all the sons-in-law, he's the one with the fundiest background, the IBLP background, etc. As an added benefit, the camp does okay. 

Derick and Jeremy weren't fundie growing up. Ben's parents had ties to Vision Forum, which dried up.  All of these were raised in very religious households (less so Derick), but not IBLP.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Temperance

[Minivanessa]

Oh well, if I got suckered in by a faker in this AMA, it’s not the first time I have been conned. Sigh.

[GeeGolly]

Are the younger Duggar children widely known as the Lost Boys and Girls? That sentence there, raised suspicion for me. That language, even if known in some internet circles, seems odd for someone who was part of the Gothard cult, to adopt.

Much of what "Jays" wrote has been said here - almost verbatim.

Some other things that stand to me are: she states she's much older than Josh, left her family at 17, and has contact with only one person still in the cult (a recent reconnection), yet she states a lot of facts that happened after she left.

"Jays" has a lot of current insider info for someone who has been out of those circles for at least 15 years. For instance, all of the marriages she speaks of happened at least 5 or more years after "Jays" left.  Josh's marriage would have happened during her 7 years of homelessness.

And isn't Diane Sawyer retired?

Edited December 20, 2019 by GeeGolly

[BetyBee]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Oh well, if I got suckered in by a faker in this AMA, it’s not the first time I have been conned. Sigh.

Same here! Maybe being checked out by Reddit for being who you say you are, doesn't mean much? I was also puzzled by Jay saying both that she was in a Phd program and that her education was so terrible. She seemed vague on how she made the leap from poorly educated to college degree. Another thing was her many missing teeth. I understand that the poor families in this cult can't afford good dental care, but surely she could have remedied her situation by now? I would love to put the thought of nearly every girl in the cult being sexually abused out of my mind. It was a very upsetting AMA. 

[PikaScrewChu]

Gothard and IBLP is a weird, weird thing. I was on a message board years ago and people claimed they followed parts of his teachings like fiscal management but didn't subscribe to his teachings on homeschooling and strict gender roles. This was before the scandals blew up and it has never been mentioned again. 

I always wondered how people could support an organization like that if they disagreed with two of the biggest stances. The fact they were paying for it all was astounding.

[lookeyloo]

9 hours ago, Absolom said:

I think GEML was just a garden variety liar.  She left after people began picking at her lies.

She did give us enough info to find her books on amazon and found her Facebook page. After that I forgot all about her. Except she seemed to be an expert on everything. 

[questionfear]

2 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

She did give us enough info to find her books on amazon and found her Facebook page. After that I forgot all about her. Except she seemed to be an expert on everything. 

I remember GEML only because she and I clashed a few times over her supposed "expertise" on religion including Judaism, even though she got a lot of things wrong or attributed niche orthodox beliefs to the entire religion, which is a major issue with me.

It's part of why I'm fascinated by the Duggars. They're like the Hasidic Orthodox-so far outside the mainstream they're in a totally different world. The difference is that the Hasidim isolate themselves, while the Duggars attempt to blend in with society.

And I fell for that Reddit AMA too...though it makes me wonder how they "verify" people. 

[Ohiopirate02]

14 hours ago, Zella said:

I have been reading some Razing Ruth stuff, and yeah, I can definitely see the similarities now. (Also just realized I do remember one of Ruth's alter-egos from when I was newbie here but I was so in and out at the time that I didn't get the full story, though I do remember she got on my nerves.)

I must confess, I feel hook, line, and sinker for this AMA, especially since Reddit said she was verified. There was one thing she said that did seem a bit weird to me, but I didn't think too much of it at the time.

Someone mentioned Tara Westover's Educated to her, and it seems like it had never occurred to her the similarities, and then she spoke about that book quite analytically, to the point she was obviously familiar with it and Westover's story, and then later claimed to be in a Ph.D. program herself. It probably wouldn't have stood out to me if I hadn't read Educated just a couple of months ago, and it has been on my mind a lot. But I remember thinking, why aren't you angling for a book deal if you want to tell this story? Publishers would eat up the next Educated. But of course now I realize that isn't going to be an option because they'll also want to fact-check you if you claim to have written the next Educated. 😉 

Nah, at least one of the Big 5 would eat up this chicks's story if there was at least some kernel of truth to it.  Memoir is a tricky genre where the book never has to be 100% accurate including Educated.  I read that one and could see the publisher's manipulations shining through the text.  But, memoir is all about one person's memory of specific events and if the writer's interpretation is off, it is allowed.  

[emma675]

Was wanderwoman the one who claimed to have a sick baby and a husband who left her during the course of her stay here? And she started a GoFundMe to help with medical expenses? That was the first time I was ever caught up in an internet con and I was fascinated (and weirdly excited that I finally saw one first hand, lol).

I, too, read the AMA and it made me sad, but I was also skeptical of some of the details (namely, the stuff about Gil Bates and the stats about family rapes). I'm sure some of it touches on reality and that makes me shudder, but some of it is too crazy to be real (I hope). 

[Guest]

Over at the Bethel mega-church in California, the two-year old daughter of a church member died. Very sad, right? Well, now the parents and the church are asking people to pray for the child's resurrection via a viral social media campaign and the parents would like to have $100,000 of the public's money for "unforeseeable expenses." 

Quote

In a statement to BuzzFeed News, the church said the parents requested a "miracle of resurrection" the same night of their daughter's death.

"The basis for [the resurrection] is modeled by Jesus in the New Testament of the Bible. Bethel Church believes in the accounts of healing and physical resurrection found in the Bible (Matthew 10:8), and that the miracles they portray are possible today," said Aaron Tesauro, the communications director of Bethel.

These people are lunatics.

[doodlebug]

27 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Over at the Bethel mega-church in California, the two-year old daughter of a church member died. Very sad, right? Well, now the parents and the church are asking people to pray for the child's resurrection via a viral social media campaign and the parents would like to have $100,000 of the public's money for "unforeseeable expenses." 

These people are lunatics.

Apparently, Bethel church in California is known for being scam-tastic.  The members believe in faith healing and miracles and that people can be trained to perform these things.  It actually has a school for 'supernatural ministry' that purports to teach students how to heal and raise the dead.  Sort of like Hogwarts for fundies.

According to the parents' story online, their healthy 2 year old simply died in her sleep last Saturday.  2 is way too old for SIDS which occurs in kids under a year old.  From their story, it appears she was already dead when they found her, so, even if the EMT's were called and she was transported to a hospital and pronounced dead in the ER; the 'expenses' surrounding that would be no more than a few thousand bucks if these people don't have insurance.  She was eventually taken to the coroner's office where she remains to this time as the parents plead with God to raise her from the dead.  What 'unforeseeable expenses' would total up to $95,000+ in this scenario? They're expecting a biblical healing which means she wakes up and is perfectly fine.  If she doesn't wake up, even a pretty elaborate funeral isn't going to be more than maybe 10 grand.

I am somewhat suspicious of the circumstances here and wish there was some independent corroboration of the events.  Maybe the kid isn't dead and they're keeping her out of sight as a money making scheme.  Then, when she is 'raised', they can really rake in the cash.  If she is dead, how did she die?  Two year olds do not die in their sleep and the coroner would be performing an autopsy and the police might be investigating.  Was this child neglected and abused?  Did she have some childhood illness that could have been prevented with a vaccine or treated with antibiotics and her parents didn't do those things?  If she is dead, I think the parents are attempting to deflect attention away from whatever the awful truth might be.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by doodlebug

[Absolom]

The coroner has already performed an autopsy.  Results are pending unless they've been released this morning.

I especially loathe "churches" like this.  When grandson's great-grandma died, another kid in pre-school who attended a similar church told him God would raise great-grandma from the dead.  I ended up explaining false religious belief to a four year old.  

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Maybe the kid isn't dead and they're keeping her out of sight as a money making scheme.  Then, when she is 'raised', they can really rake in the cash.  If she is dead, how did she die? 

That was my first thought, too -- the kid's not dead, she ends up being "resurrected," the church sees its membership climb, the parents make a fortune touring her all over the world, and all over social media people start praying to raise their loved ones from the dead, too. But Buzzfeed did confirm with the coroner's office that the child was, in fact, dead. 

My suspicion is that the girl was sick and the parents didn't take her to the doctor and chose instead to "pray" for her. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

56 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Apparently, Bethel church in California is known for being scam-tastic.  The members believe in faith healing and miracles and that people can be trained to perform these things.  It actually has a school for 'supernatural ministry' that purports to teach students how to heal and raise the dead.  Sort of like Hogwarts for fundies.

According to the parents' story online, their healthy 2 year old simply died in her sleep last Saturday.  2 is way too old for SIDS which occurs in kids under a year old.  From their story, it appears she was already dead when they found her, so, even if the EMT's were called and she was transported to a hospital and pronounced dead in the ER; the 'expenses' surrounding that would be no more than a few thousand bucks if these people don't have insurance.  She was eventually taken to the coroner's office where she remains to this time as the parents plead with God to raise her from the dead.  What 'unforeseeable expenses' would total up to $95,000+ in this scenario? They're expecting a biblical healing which means she wakes up and is perfectly fine.  If she doesn't wake up, even a pretty elaborate funeral isn't going to be more than maybe 10 grand.

I am somewhat suspicious of the circumstances here and wish there was some independent corroboration of the events.  Maybe the kid isn't dead and they're keeping her out of sight as a money making scheme.  Then, when she is 'raised', they can really rake in the cash.  If she is dead, how did she die?  Two year olds do not die in their sleep and the coroner would be performing an autopsy and the police might be investigating.  Was this child neglected and abused?  Did she have some childhood illness that could have been prevented with a vaccine or treated with antibiotics and her parents didn't do those things?  If she is dead, I think the parents are attempting to deflect attention away from whatever the awful truth might be.

 

 

LOL at "Hogwarts for Fundies"! 🤣

The line between prayer and attempted witchcraft seems awfully blurry sometimes.