Gimme That Old Time Religion

[queenanne]

18 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

That was an interesting read.  I am not surprised to find out that sexual abuse in evangelical churches is under reported.  I wish that the author would have gone further though.   There was nothing mentioning how patriarchal these institutions are.  When they believe a woman causes a man to sin, it's no wonder sexual abuse is swept under the rug.

I don't necessarily think it's patriarchy, though.  I think it's the same reaction they'd have if a teen boy had the guts to come in and report he'd been sexually abused by the pastor.  It's gotta be the victim's fault, because even if they remotely believe you, the default belief is that bad things never happen to good Christians.  If it happened to you, it's because you weren't godly enough and weren't praying enough, etc.  "You Must Have Done Something to Bring This Upon Yourself", cut with a nice dose of "I Don't Believe You Because All Our Congregant Christians Are Heterosexual/Celebate Unless They're Married", and a whole batch of other tropes.

[awaken]

On 6/1/2018 at 10:04 AM, EAG46 said:

This was in yesterday's Washington Post, and I hope everyone can read it.  A very good and detailed article on sexual abuse in evangelical churches, the denial from those churches, and the repercussions that denial has.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/05/31/feature/the-epidemic-of-denial-about-sexual-abuse-in-the-evangelical-church/?utm_term=.e44f6e8658f7     Yes the Duggars and the Gothards are mentioned.

Thanks for posting- I will definitely plan to read it!

[DragonFaerie]

Well, well, well.  I wonder how this will work out.  And when the light will swing to the Gothardites.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexual-misconduct/metoo-goes-church-southern-baptists-face-reckoning-over-treatment-women-n880216.  

[Sew Sumi]

Derelict should be concerned. This directly affects his church. 

[DragonFaerie]

Seems the women are fed up with being treated as second-class citizens and the abuse they take and are calling for some major changes.  I should put popcorn on the shopping list so I can watch Derelict's tweets about this. 

[Sew Sumi]

He did retweet this. Ronnie and Derelict ain't skeered of a bunch of inferior women!

Edited June 8, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[Absolom]

Disunity is their response?  I guess that tells us all we need to know about Floyd and company including Derick.

[DragonFaerie]

Disunity?  Wouldn't Unity mean men and women are treated equally with the same rights and the same everything?  I believe their church is all about Disunity

[ginger90]

 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by ginger90

[ginger90]

Sorry these are in the wrong thread. I think my brain needs help!

I can’t delete them ?

[MargeGunderson]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

He did retweet this. Ronnie and Derelict ain't skeered of a bunch of inferior women!

Glad to see they are focusing on the real problem. How long until they blame the devil? 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, MargeGunderson said:

Glad to see they are focusing on the real problem. How long until they blame the devil? 

Well, a lot of the SBC honchos are spooked by the fact that some in their number are siding with the women. It makes them feel as if there's a crack in their castle. This "we must have unity" theme is a big one with them at the moment -- Guess they feel deep down that if the men don't all stick together they may lose this fight! ... Heaven forbid!

For those who've missed it, the controversy is over the "retirement"/ousting of Paige Patterson, now ex-President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary over his long record of telling abused, raped and otherwise assailed-by-good-Christian-men women that they'd best shut up and be nice to those guys. The majority of the Seminary's trustees basically sided with the women, voting to strip Patterson of his numerous retiree benefits. ........And the SBC honchos who'd never dream of taking that stance are freaking out about this "disunity" among the menfolk. 

 

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/may/paige-patterson-southwestern-seminary-trustees-swbts.html

It's quite the little fight. The traditionalist boys are skeered.... 

"For the thousands of Southern Baptist women who led a charge to expel Patterson from SWBTS and condemn his “unbiblical” views of gender and leadership, any action taken against the SBC figurehead signals greater attention to women’s roles and women’s voices in their movement.

“This strong leadership on the part of the SWBTS board is a welcome relief,” said Karen Swallow Prior, a Liberty University professor and one of the initial signatories on the Southern Baptist women’s open letter calling for his removal. “The board’s decision is both substantive and symbolic. By the grace of God, history will look back at the leadership of these men and women as a starting point for the corporate repentance that is needed to heal the wounded women in our midst.”

On the other hand, Patterson’s defenders view any punishment as unnecessarily caving to outside pressure and chatter.

“If there is any disrespect or dishonor that is turned toward Paige Patterson by the Southwestern Seminary board, it will cause a deep, grievous wound in the Southern Baptist body that I'm fearful will take a long time, if ever, to heal,” wrote Richard Land, Southern Evangelical Seminary president, former head of the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and one of Patterson’s closest allies, in a recent letter."

Here's Ronnie's contribution -- 

'Patterson’s backers initially commended his May 10 statement and urged the denomination to accept his apology and move toward unity. Former SBC presidents Ronnie Floyd and Johnny Hunt thanked him for the statement, as did SEBTS president Danny Akinand GuideStone president O. S. Hawkins.

Those most frustrated by Patterson’s dismissal have blamed “social media lynching” and “political correctness” for the scrutiny over his past comments.

“Because Dr. Patterson has not said some things exactly right in our extra sensitive climate, he is being condemned by his enemies,” wrote one SWBTS alumnus in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. “Who of us could withstand withering criticism and publicity of any misstatements we have made over the last several decades? Who of us could withstand having our statements taken in the absolutely worst light?”'

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, DragonFaerie said:

Well, well, well.  I wonder how this will work out.  And when the light will swing to the Gothardites.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexual-misconduct/metoo-goes-church-southern-baptists-face-reckoning-over-treatment-women-n880216.  

Quote

"If the church founded by Jesus Christ is not the safest place [for women], we're doing it wrong," Stetzer said.

 

This really sums it all up.  Its really that simple. 

[Lady Edith]

I know enough about the Bible to know that Jesus would NEVER condone the mental, physical and sexual abuse of ANYONE in his name.  IMHO These are the false prophets the Bible warns about.  Preaching false and warped teachings  in God’s name. All for their own twisted desires.

I did a little research online.  Ran into this article from Bible.org that is really interesting.  The status of women was apparently elevated by Jesus, not quashed.  Makes me SMH at the belief that women should be subservient to their husbands.  So when they talk about the “Biblical view” of women, this is what they mean.  And what they should follow.

https://bible.org/article/christianity-best-thing-ever-happened-women

I’m gonna bring the popcorn and 50” TV to the prayer closet.  This is gonna get interesting.  

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, Lady Edith said:

I know enough about the Bible to know that Jesus would NEVER condone the mental, physical and sexual abuse of ANYONE in his name.  IMHO These are the false prophets the Bible warns about.  Preaching false and warped teachings  in God’s name. All for their own twisted desires.

I did a little research online.  Ran into this article from Bible.org that is really interesting.  The status of women was apparently elevated by Jesus, not quashed.  Makes me SMH at the belief that women should be subservient to their husbands.  So when they talk about the “Biblical view” of women, this is what they mean.  And what they should follow.

https://bible.org/article/christianity-best-thing-ever-happened-women

I’m gonna bring the popcorn and 50” TV to the prayer closet.  This is gonna get interesting.  

I have my DirecTV password so we are all set. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Lady Edith said:

I know enough about the Bible to know that Jesus would NEVER condone the mental, physical and sexual abuse of ANYONE in his name.  IMHO These are the false prophets the Bible warns about.  Preaching false and warped teachings  in God’s name. All for their own twisted desires.

I did a little research online.  Ran into this article from Bible.org that is really interesting.  The status of women was apparently elevated by Jesus, not quashed.  Makes me SMH at the belief that women should be subservient to their husbands.  So when they talk about the “Biblical view” of women, this is what they mean.  And what they should follow.

https://bible.org/article/christianity-best-thing-ever-happened-women

I’m gonna bring the popcorn and 50” TV to the prayer closet.  This is gonna get interesting.  

I agree. They kept twisting what Jesus said and did because it doesn't fit their own personal prejudices or wants. Jesus loved and accepted everyone. He hanged out with sick people, healed the dead and people considered outcast from society. He wanted everyone included in his message. Because everyone was. It doesn't matter the sex, color, or background of the person. He helped people.  The only time they "use" Jesus's teachings is to protect sinners. Molesters, abusing wives and children, etc. Only then do they stress forgiveness and love everyone. Which would also be against what Jesus and God would agree with. Their only really doing it to get away with their own crimes. Confession and forgiveness first has to come from the sinner really and truly repenting. Followed by living like you are truly sorry. Which rarely actually happens. Its always to save their own skin or get out of trouble. I seriously doubt Jesus would be cool with that. He'd sided with the victims. If Fundies and other like mind people ever stopped to really read to the Bible they are exactly who the Bible warns against. False prophets. Preaching false and warped teaching. God's not fooled by what they say and do or rather don't do and so much more. I know it happens all the time but I'm still always surprised about how willing they are to twist the words of their God. I was always taught God doesn't like when you do that. 

[Temperance]

Somebody needs to post a picture for us to look at of Paige Patterson's window (featuring a picture of himself, wife and dog).

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, Temperance said:

Somebody needs to post a picture for us to look at of Paige Patterson's window (featuring a picture of himself, wife and dog).

 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

 

Is this in his church????  Because if it is, I am going to need for someone to explain why a dog is kosher displayed in a church but not a statue of Jesus.

[Churchhoney]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:56 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Is this in his church????  Because if it is, I am going to need for someone to explain why a dog is kosher displayed in a church but not a statue of Jesus.

I think it's in the seminary. They seem to have a bunch of those windows there. 

The answer to your question: Logic is a tool of the devil. Especially when used by women.   lol 

The New Yorker has a new piece on Patterson et al and the Evangelical #metoo movement. .. https://www.newyorker.com/news-desk/on-religion/silence-is-not-spiritual-the-evangelical-metoo-movement

[Temperance]

Marie Claire has a piece on the "Stay-At-Home-Daughter" movement for those interested. 

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, Temperance said:

Marie Claire has a piece on the "Stay-At-Home-Daughter" movement for those interested. 

Here’s a link:

https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/amp21345667/stay-at-home-daughters-christian-patriarchy/

[madpsych78]

That's an interesting article. The part that got me was the brief discussion about Vision Forum/Doug Phillips, who basically indicated that his followers should not vote for any women running for office and even questioned whether women should vote. Since the Seewalds were affiliated with Vision Forum, it makes Jessica's Seewald's choice to become a police officer even more remarkable given her background. Phillips's message was also ironic considering Sarah Palin (who held office as governor of Alaska and was the VP nominee in 2008) had attended some of these Christian patriarchy meetings, except I believe the article said she attended IBLP/Gothard, rather than VF. Unlike Phillips, I don't think Gothard was against the idea of women voting as long as they voted the same as their headship.

[awaken]

Thanks for the articles- I’m going to check them out!

[DangerousMinds]

48 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

That's an interesting article. The part that got me was the brief discussion about Vision Forum/Doug Phillips, who basically indicated that his followers should not vote for any women running for office and even questioned whether women should vote. Since the Seewalds were affiliated with Vision Forum, it makes Jessica's Seewald's choice to become a police officer even more remarkable given her background. Phillips's message was also ironic considering Sarah Palin (who held office as governor of Alaska and was the VP nominee in 2008) had attended some of these Christian patriarchy meetings, except I believe the article said she attended IBLP/Gothard, rather than VF. Unlike Phillips, I don't think Gothard was against the idea of women voting as long as they voted the same as their headship.

I always got the feeling that these types supported Palin though, which makes me more confused.

[Churchhoney]

18 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I always got the feeling that these types supported Palin though, which makes me more confused.

We'll support anyone who will push for the kinds of abortion laws, sexuality-related laws, immigration laws, etc. etc. that WE want, no matter WHAT they are, think or do otherwise? Satan himself, actually .... 

[Lady Edith]

Ok, so I saw a post on Pickles that talks about the Biblically mandated length of time Clown Car and the Baby-birthin’ Caravan have to wait after childbirth to be “joyfully available” to their headships.  It averaged out to a month for a boy and 6-8 weeks for a girl. So yeah, I guess girls leave a woman all that much more unclean ?.  But the thing is, I remember my doc telling me after having both kiddos that I had to wait 6-8 weeks after birth to give my body a chance to clean itself out and heal. And to have a glass of wine before that because I was going to need it LOL!  So I guess there is a medical reason behind the biblical mandate. But folks are still debating it lol!  Sometimes I think that is mandated because mama doesn’t wanna (for GOOD REASON).  Maybe a woman got to translate that part of the Bible. ?

[Absolom]

It's 40 days for a boy and 80 days for a girl from Leviticus.

[MamaMax]

Quote

 

Unlike Catholicism and Judaism, Fea said, both of which have a long intellectual tradition, American evangelicalism has been more practical in focus.

"Evangelicals are primarily concerned with preaching the gospel, with evangelism, with social justice ministries, service," Fea said. He added, "And they have not always valued the life of the mind. So as a result, you have a lot of evangelicals doing great things, but they're not necessarily pursuing intellectual vocations — the liberal arts, philosophy, logic, history these kinds of things — because they're out trying to win people to Christ."

 

From: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/07/626711777/religion-the-supreme-court-and-why-it-matters

[GeeGolly]

No

On 7/6/2018 at 8:05 PM, Absolom said:

It's 40 days for a boy and 80 days for a girl from Leviticus.

I don't know what Leviticus is all about, but I'm guessing some man passed a kidney stone during this time and decided no one should go near any body part that pushes out anything larger that a pea.

(No disrespect to the Bible meant)

[Temperance]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

No

I don't know what Leviticus is all about, but I'm guessing some man passed a kidney stone during this time and decided no one should go near any body part that pushes out anything larger that a pea.

(No disrespect to the Bible meant)

Leviticus is a set of laws for the Israelites to follow. Chapter 12 is about "Purification After Childbirth".  It's actually there.  Yay! (sarcasm) Verses 1-6 lay it out. 

[kokapetl]

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

No

I don't know what Leviticus is all about, but I'm guessing some man passed a kidney stone during this time and decided no one should go near any body part that pushes out anything larger that a pea.

(No disrespect to the Bible meant)

“12 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth daythe boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.

“‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

I think it speaks for itself. 

[MargeGunderson]

I love how the Duggars pick and choose which laws to follow. We haven't seen them offering up lambs, doves or pigeons for sacrifice! They don't eat pork per Leviticus, but will wear clothes woven of two different materials. 

[Albanyguy]

7 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I love how the Duggars pick and choose which laws to follow.

And yet in the same breath, they will claim that the Bible (KJV, of course) is the divinely-authored word of God and that every syllable has to be taken literally.

[MargeGunderson]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

And yet in the same breath, they will claim that the Bible (KJV, of course) is the divinely-authored word of God and that every syllable has to be taken literally.

Consistency is not in their wheelhouse, for sure.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

8 hours ago, kokapetl said:

“12 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth daythe boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.

“‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

I think it speaks for itself. 

I read about this in an article on mikvahs. It has to do with the unfertilized egg not bringing forth life, hence death and uncleanliness during the period or something to that effect. Since the girl child would also carry unfertilized eggs, maybe that’s the reason for the longer wait period.  

On 6/9/2018 at 8:31 PM, andromeda331 said:

I agree. They kept twisting what Jesus said and did because it doesn't fit their own personal prejudices or wants. Jesus loved and accepted everyone. He hanged out with sick people, healed the dead and people considered outcast from society. He wanted everyone included in his message. Because everyone was. It doesn't matter the sex, color, or background of the person. He helped people.  The only time they "use" Jesus's teachings is to protect sinners. Molesters, abusing wives and children, etc. Only then do they stress forgiveness and love everyone. Which would also be against what Jesus and God would agree with. Their only really doing it to get away with their own crimes. Confession and forgiveness first has to come from the sinner really and truly repenting. Followed by living like you are truly sorry. Which rarely actually happens. Its always to save their own skin or get out of trouble. I seriously doubt Jesus would be cool with that. He'd sided with the victims. If Fundies and other like mind people ever stopped to really read to the Bible they are exactly who the Bible warns against. False prophets. Preaching false and warped teaching. God's not fooled by what they say and do or rather don't do and so much more. I know it happens all the time but I'm still always surprised about how willing they are to twist the words of their God. I was always taught God doesn't like when you do that. 

People like these hypocrites always burn my butt! I really HATE part-time Christians.  Yes, the Old Testament is important and relevant, but Christ came for a reason. Not just so we could have life more abundantly, but to bring a new covenant! Duh!!! I was always taught and understood that to mean the rules and principles of the Old Testament (eye for an eye, sacricial offerings, God and the Holy of the Holies only being accessible to high priests, etc.) were to be done away with as every man and woman was to know God for him or herself through Christ (as in “ I am the way, the truth and the light. No one can get to the father but by me”-Jesus). Christ made no differences in people, sex, gender, religion or profession, but he sure didn’t care for false prophets, the rich, judgemental folks (see Gothardism), the sexually immoral (Smuggar and again Gothard) and the prideful hypocrites who paraded their good works (looking at you Jill & Derick) in exchange for favor with God.  Jesus also said wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church.  In other words care for her above and beyond yourself, uplift her, and put nothing before her (again Smuggar). And child abusers were most unfavorable.  ( “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.) 

They cherry pick verses and interpret what they want the way they want.  Christianity is not easy.  Never has been, never will be if you do it as Christ commands.  Most of us know and accept that, but these folks really think they have God and the bible all figured out when in reality they re who he warned of: pharisees, false prophets and people who see specs in the eyes of others, but not their own.  Sorry if that’s long, and it’s not meant to exalt one religion over the other.  But if you’re doing things in the name of God, do it His way!

[queenanne]

57 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

I read about this in an article on mikvahs. It has to do with the unfertilized egg not bringing forth life, hence death and uncleanliness during the period or something to that effect. Since the girl child would also carry unfertilized eggs, maybe that’s the reason for the longer wait period.  

People like these hypocrites always burn my butt! I really HATE part-time Christians.  Yes, the Old Testament is important and relevant, but Christ came for a reason. Not just so we could have life more abundantly, but to bring a new covenant! Duh!!! I was always taught and understood that to mean the rules and principles of the Old Testament (eye for an eye, sacricial offerings, God and the Holy of the Holies only being accessible to high priests, etc.) were to be done away with as every man and woman was to know God for him or herself through Christ (as in “ I am the way, the truth and the light. No one can get to the father but by me”-Jesus). Christ made no differences in people, sex, gender, religion or profession, but he sure didn’t care for false prophets, the rich, judgemental folks (see Gothardism), the sexually immoral (Smuggar and again Gothard) and the prideful hypocrites who paraded their good works (looking at you Jill & Derick) in exchange for favor with God.  Jesus also said wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church.  In other words care for her above and beyond yourself, uplift her, and put nothing before her (again Smuggar). And child abusers were most unfavorable.  ( “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.) 

They cherry pick verses and interpret what they want the way they want.  Christianity is not easy.  Never has been, never will be if you do it as Christ commands.  Most of us know and accept that, but these folks really think they have God and the bible all figured out when in reality they re who he warned of: pharisees, false prophets and people who see specs in the eyes of others, but not their own.  Sorry if that’s long, and it’s not meant to exalt one religion over the other.  But if you’re doing things in the name of God, do it His way!

Somebody in the Duggar family really must hate pork meat, that’s all I have to say about that. :). I wonder what they feel about lobster?  Paul’s God didn’t like it, and I bet we’d know how the Duggs feel if lobster was as cheap as pork!

[Ohiopirate02]

48 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Somebody in the Duggar family really must hate pork meat, that’s all I have to say about that. :). I wonder what they feel about lobster?  Paul’s God didn’t like it, and I bet we’d know how the Duggs feel if lobster was as cheap as pork!

I live in Eastern North Carolina with a sizeable population who's beliefs are in line with the Duggars on a lot of issues but these dietary restrictions.  No one here is going to give up BBQ and shrimp or crab.  The most famous restaurant in my little town is a seafood joint that does not serve any alcohol and is closed on Sundays. 

[zenme]

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I live in Eastern North Carolina with a sizeable population who's beliefs are in line with the Duggars on a lot of issues but these dietary restrictions.  No one here is going to give up BBQ and shrimp or crab.  The most famous restaurant in my little town is a seafood joint that does not serve any alcohol and is closed on Sundays. 

One of my favorite things is bacon wrapped shrimp! With a cold beer! I'm doomed. 

I like that turkey bacon the Duggars eat, but it's no pork bacon for sure! I wonder if the Vuolos eat pork.

[SunnyBeBe]

I grew up fundie and in the South, but, the pork prohibition was not included.  Maybe, that's just their own personal spin. 

[Temperance]

Most Jewish people don't follow all the restrictions and law of the old testament either to some extent. Of course, hasidic jews follow more restrictions that other versions of Judaism and Bill Gothard look to the hasidic jews for some inspiration for his teachings. (Possibly that's where the pork restrictions come in).

Edited July 10, 2018 by Temperance

[Mollie]

39 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Most Jewish people don't follow all the restrictions and law of the old testament either to some extent. Of course, hasidic jews follow more restrictions that other versions of Judaism and Bill Gothard look to the hasidic jews for some inspiration for his teachings. (Possibly that's where the pork restrictions come in).

Most Jews in Israel eat a Kosher diet and the large grocery stores only carry kosher food.  You can only find non-Kosher food in strictly Arab neighborhoods.

[Temperance]

Just now, Mollie said:

Most Jews in Israel eat a Kosher diet and the large grocery stores only carry kosher food.  You can only find non-Kosher food in strictly Arab neighborhoods.

I know a lot of Jews keep Kosher.  I meant that a lot of the Jewish people I know/have known don't keep other restrictions mentioned in the OT and some of them don't keep Kosher .I apologize if I offended any Jewish people. That was not my intention.

[Mollie]

24 minutes ago, Temperance said:

I know a lot of Jews keep Kosher.  I meant that a lot of the Jewish people I know/have known don't keep other restrictions mentioned in the OT and some of them don't keep Kosher .I apologize if I offended any Jewish people. That was not my intention.

Most Jews in America do not keep the Kosher food laws and do not observe the Sabbath.  71% of those Jews are intermarried to non-Jews, according to Pew research.

[SunnyBeBe]

One thing about the Duggar kids that always amazed me when they were younger, was their seemingly total adherence to their parent's religious rules.  As a teen growing up fundie, whenever fundie teens gathered and discussed things in private, we were so NOT into that kind of thing.  We played our popular music (my parents did allow me to do that, but some didn't), discussed prohibited activities, and generally poked funny of those fanatics, as we called them. Those who had to follow the rules did, but, it was under protest.   We could hardly wait to get old enough to get AWAY from that stuff. And, most did. From my peers, I know of no one who stayed fundie after turning 18!  Most of what was seen at church and for the public was fake and I never developed any respect for it.  Most of us went on to other denominations with a kinder message and liberal approach.  When I see how almost all the Duggar kids emulate their parents......omg. It's just so bizarre to me. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

One thing about the Duggar kids that always amazed me when they were younger, was their seemingly total adherence to their parent's religious rules.  As a teen growing up fundie, whenever fundie teens gathered and discussed things in private, we were so NOT into that kind of thing.  We played our popular music (my parents did allow me to do that, but some didn't), discussed prohibited activities, and generally poked funny of those fanatics, as we called them. Those who had to follow the rules did, but, it was under protest.   We could hardly wait to get old enough to get AWAY from that stuff. And, most did. From my peers, I know of no one who stayed fundie after turning 18!  Most of what was seen at church and for the public was fake and I never developed any respect for it.  Most of us went on to other denominations with a kinder message and liberal approach.  When I see how almost all the Duggar kids emulate their parents......omg. It's just so bizarre to me. 

Well, JB and Michelle kept their kids so isolated that they never have the chance to think critically about their faith and parents.  Then they created this idea of "accountability partner" or snitch.  The Duggar kids were never left alone with other children not their siblings.  It is bizarre to almost everyone else.  What I find really bizarre with this family and the sons-in-law is how they claim to have a strong faith but they never test it.  They choose to live in a bubble probably because they subconsciously know that their faith is weak.  If JB and Michelle raised their kids with a strong faith in Jesus, then they should be able to go out into the world and not be affected by it.  I can interact  with a person of any other faith or an atheist and still be Catholic at the end.  I can also doubt my church and look at it critically, but still attend Mass every Sunday. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I guess their isolation is something that I can't fathom.  Growing up, I encountered other kids who were also quite sheltered and buffered from anything considered "worldly," but, there were ways. Like chatting on the porch as adults held fundie fellowship inside, writing notes during the sermons and gathering around in the hallway after Sunday School to vent and share horror stories.  Even at those conferences they attended, certainly there were undercover detractors their age.  And my fundie Christian school was also full of kids who were NOT on board.  I've always wondered if at least one of them would speak out with some descent or write a book about it.  It would be quite popular, imo. 

[Nysha]

The isolation and brainwashing are a large part of why the Duggar children don't stray, but the TLC money also plays into it once they get old enough to run. They're used to having a high level of comfort and they're not raised to hold actual jobs, so I'm betting any of them that show signs of rebelling have the fear of homelessness pounded into them. 

I've semi-followed Cynthia Jeub since she left/was kicked out of the family home and it's been a struggle since day one. I don't agree with all the choices she's made, but I could see where the Duggar kids would rather toe the party line to live in the TTH rather than live in their car.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Well, JB and Michelle kept their kids so isolated that they never have the chance to think critically about their faith and parents.  Then they created this idea of "accountability partner" or snitch.  The Duggar kids were never left alone with other children not their siblings.  It is bizarre to almost everyone else.  What I find really bizarre with this family and the sons-in-law is how they claim to have a strong faith but they never test it.  They choose to live in a bubble probably because they subconsciously know that their faith is weak.  If JB and Michelle raised their kids with a strong faith in Jesus, then they should be able to go out into the world and not be affected by it.  I can interact  with a person of any other faith or an atheist and still be Catholic at the end.  I can also doubt my church and look at it critically, but still attend Mass every Sunday. 

You’d still be Catholic because you’re probably spiritual whereas the Duggars are religious.  You can doubt the church because your faith is in God, not the priest or building.  The Duggars’ faith is in their institutions i.e. Gothard and IBLP.  That’s why they’re such rigid followers.  They think they’re devotion is to God through Christ, but its really to Gothard and his teachings or else every aspect of their lives wouldn’t revolve around the teachings of one man.   A true Christian shouldn’t care if you’re Catholic, Baptist or Church of God in Christ, because it’s all following the same Jesus and the same bible.  They can say what they want but their focus is on Gothard not Christ.  Their practices are far more ritualistic than Catholicism will ever be with all that long hair and modesty clothing, but they’ll never see it.  

Edited July 12, 2018 by Ijustwantsomechips

[mimionthebeach]

On 2018-07-10 at 4:00 AM, kokapetl said:

“12 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth daythe boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

6 “‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering.[a] 7 He shall offer them before the Lord to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood.

“‘These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl. 8 But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

I think it speaks for itself. 

Infuriating.