Gimme That Old Time Religion

[questionfear]

40 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I agree that you are not a good friend  if you do not show up  for major life  event. Please do not tar all Christians with  the same brush . I would  have no problem  showing up for the same-sex  marriage  of a friend . I would  love to go to the baby  shower  of the same couple . There is a wide range  of beliefs in the Christian  community , it seems  to be the more extreme  that are shown  on T.V. It hurts  my heart that your  friends  were hurt like that.

Oh I don't tar all Christians with that...I know plenty of people who attend churches that have comparable belief systems to what I knew growing up. My issue is with anyone who takes their religion as a tool that should dictate the lives of the people around them. In my view, you aren't a tolerant person if you profess to accept the beliefs of others while voting for officials you want to enact your beliefs on others. Does that make sense? 

[Jellybeans]

I am not hurt when she sadly says she won't see me in heaven because she does not get to decide if there is a heaven decision maker.  It is out of her hands.  I was told by a science teacher once... it does not matter what you believe, the truth is what it is.   None of us on earth know what happens when we die.

I wish we knew...my daughter is gone and I would love to know for sure there is an afterlife.  I would like to see her again.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Oh I don't tar all Christians with that...I know plenty of people who attend churches that have comparable belief systems to what I knew growing up. My issue is with anyone who takes their religion as a tool that should dictate the lives of the people around them. In my view, you aren't a tolerant person if you profess to accept the beliefs of others while voting for officials you want to enact your beliefs on others. Does that make sense? 

Purrfect sense! 

[zoomama]

9 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

 

I wish we knew...my daughter is gone and I would love to know for sure there is an afterlife.  I would like to see her again.  

heartbreak!   as a person of faith, i believe in heaven and believe confidently that i will see my mom etc again.  but i get what you are saying about concrete proof.

[crazycatlady58]

7 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Oh I don't tar all Christians with that...I know plenty of people who attend churches that have comparable belief systems to what I knew growing up. My issue is with anyone who takes their religion as a tool that should dictate the lives of the people around them. In my view, you aren't a tolerant person if you profess to accept the beliefs of others while voting for officials you want to enact your beliefs on others. Does that make sense? 

Yes it does. I do agree  with you. The U.S. seems to becoming  more and more intolerant  of anything  different  than there own viewpoint . It is becoming  a frightening  place. I stopped  watching  the news because  of this and if I could  figure  out how to keep up with  my friends  and family  outside  of Facebook  I would  sign off of that also.

Jellybeans ,  sending you a big hug, and you are correct  it is not in her hands. Shoot, as a Christian  I wonder  sometimes  about  myself , much less tell someone  else where they will end up.

[Aja]

41 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I am not hurt when she sadly says she won't see me in heaven because she does not get to decide if there is a heaven decision maker.  It is out of her hands.  I was told by a science teacher once... it does not matter what you believe, the truth is what it is.   None of us on earth know what happens when we die.

I wish we knew...my daughter is gone and I would love to know for sure there is an afterlife.  I would like to see her again.  

O my darling. So many hugs to you. I hope you do not mind that I feel so compelled to say that I believe 100% you will see your daughter again, and my theories have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with quantum physics. I'm a big nerd (like a BIG nerd) and the dispersing of conscious energy when we die has been a decades-long obsession. I will resist the mighty temptation to pontificate and leave it at that. Except to say that I'm holding a space of sympathy and support for you. <3

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, Jellybeans said:

I am not hurt when she sadly says she won't see me in heaven because she does not get to decide if there is a heaven decision maker.  It is out of her hands.  I was told by a science teacher once... it does not matter what you believe, the truth is what it is.   None of us on earth know what happens when we die.

I wish we knew...my daughter is gone and I would love to know for sure there is an afterlife.  I would like to see her again.  

I don't have any answers, but I am sending you a big virtual hug!

 

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Yes it does. I do agree  with you. The U.S. seems to becoming  more and more intolerant  of anything  different  than there own viewpoint . It is becoming  a frightening  place. I stopped  watching  the news because  of this and if I could  figure  out how to keep up with  my friends  and family  outside  of Facebook  I would  sign off of that also.

Jellybeans ,  sending you a big hug, and you are correct  it is not in her hands. Shoot, as a Christian  I wonder  sometimes  about  myself , much less tell someone  else where they will end up.

Speaking of intolerance, my alma mater, Brandeis, is shut down  (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/08/23/brandeis-campus-closed-after-mail-threats/PtrMAy9FkZ3BmEbgZWn5PI/story.html) due to threats. It's hard to imagine this is anything other than anti-semitism. Scary. 

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

I am not hurt when she sadly says she won't see me in heaven because she does not get to decide if there is a heaven decision maker.  It is out of her hands.  I was told by a science teacher once... it does not matter what you believe, the truth is what it is.   None of us on earth know what happens when we die.

I wish we knew...my daughter is gone and I would love to know for sure there is an afterlife.  I would like to see her again.  

My nephew drowned when he was 5.  A couple of family members, both atheists, seemingly had a harder time than the rest of us (not that any of us did well).  I honestly believe that their lack of belief in life after death that made things worse for them.  I know I would've lost my mind if I didn't believe there was someplace far better than this world where his beautiful spirit continues on and that someday, I might be reunited with him again.  So sorry for your loss and I believe your daughter is out there and you will be with her again someday. I wish I had concrete proof, but faith is the best I've got and I cling to it.

Edited August 23, 2017 by doodlebug

[Arwen Evenstar]

Aw, @Jellybeans and @doodlebug, so sorry to hear of the loss of your daughter and nephew, respectively. Can't even begin to imagine the heartbreak.  Hugs to you both.

[doodlebug]

2 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Aw, @Jellybeans and @doodlebug, so sorry to hear of the loss of your daughter and nephew, respectively. Can't even begin to imagine the heartbreak.  Hugs to you both.

Thanks, its been 26 years, so I've had a long time to reflect on it and put it in perspective.  I don't ever expect to 'get over it' though; nor do I want to.  His 32 birthday was last week, so I've been feeling him a bit more that usual recently.

And best of luck to you, Arwen.

Edited August 23, 2017 by doodlebug

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Thanks, its been 26 years, so I've had a long time to reflect on it and put it in perspective.  I don't ever expect to 'get over it' though; nor do I want to.  His 32 birthday was last week, so I've been feeling him a bit more that usual recently.

And best of luck to you, Arwen.

Thanks, Doodlebug, for your good wishes.

As an auntie, I know I would never be able to get over the loss off one of my precious nieces or nephews. I never got to become a mother, but I could only imagine the sense of loss in that instance to be unfathomable.

[Temperance]

My christian friends are incredibly judgmental of anything they don't like, but they're less likely to stand up to bigotry, racism, and prejudice. My atheists friends are more tolerant of how people choose to live their lives, but far less tolerant of racism, bigotry, etc.

@questionfear it breaks my heart to hear about anti-semitism. My sympathy is  with those who are hurting. 

Strangely enough, a few of my christian friends have a harder time accepting loss. Not sure why. Maybe like the Duggars, they expect God will give them what they want if they pray for it and because they're good people. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Temperance

[Jellybeans]

I am quite sure personality and upbringing play a role.  My fundy friend has been to a bridal shower of a gay couple.  She does not approve but she would never say anything or show displeasure.  Nor would she pull a Derick move and tweet displeasure.  

Now my lovely (not said sarcastically) atheist friend would never attend a shower for a fundy because they are against everything she stands for.  I can't see her being friends with them either and my fundy friend is a wonderful person!  

I think I said this in another post somewhere...there is a big difference between being tolerant and open minded.

Thanks for the comments about my daughter.  Most times I think I will see her again but I like concrete proof.  It would make it easier.  But faith is what we have or grasp at.  My daughter was 34.

I am sorry about your nephew @doodlebug  

[ariel]

34 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

 

Now my lovely (not said sarcastically) atheist friend would never attend a shower for a fundy because they are against everything she stands for.  I can't see her being friends with them either and my fundy friend is a wonderful person!  

 

Why is that a problem? I wouldn't want someone to attend a shower for me if they were against everything I stand for.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by ariel

[Jynnan tonnix]

5 hours ago, Aja said:

O my darling. So many hugs to you. I hope you do not mind that I feel so compelled to say that I believe 100% you will see your daughter again, and my theories have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with quantum physics. I'm a big nerd (like a BIG nerd) and the dispersing of conscious energy when we die has been a decades-long obsession. I will resist the mighty temptation to pontificate and leave it at that. Except to say that I'm holding a space of sympathy and support for you. <3

I, for one, would be very interested in what sorts of things you have gleaned in your obsession. I'm one of the weird variety of atheist who can't really let go of a sense that something in us goes on for at least some length of time after this life. But I've never really found anything to back that up. It might be interesting to take this to the prayer closet or even PM.

[Jellybeans]

1 hour ago, ariel said:

Why is that a problem? I wouldn't want someone to attend a shower for me if they were against everything I stand for.  

It isn't a problem for me.

[GeeGolly]

I think accepting death and moving through grief is way bigger than any one religion. So many things factor into how one deals with grief.

Most of the clients I work with have experienced loss and those with faith sometimes find comfort within it and others start to question it. Those without formal religion sometimes wonder if a change in beliefs might bring them more comfort and some don't bring faith into their grief process at all. And those are just a couple of examples.

As far as judging others because of their faith/non-faith, religion is the same as every other 'difference' we all have, some people are assholes and some people aren't, within every religion/non-religion.

[Genevrier]

21 hours ago, questionfear said:

. It's hard to imagine this is anything other than anti-semitism. Scary. 

Agreed.

[Arwen Evenstar]

21 hours ago, questionfear said:

Speaking of intolerance, my alma mater, Brandeis, is shut down  (https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/08/23/brandeis-campus-closed-after-mail-threats/PtrMAy9FkZ3BmEbgZWn5PI/story.html) due to threats. It's hard to imagine this is anything other than anti-semitism. Scary. 

This just makes my heart hurt.  When is this madness going to stop?

In Houston we've had severa of our synagogues vandalized or bomb threats just a few months ago. 

[ariel]

I find it sad that when someone says that they are a Christian people assume they are conservative.  There are plenty of liberal Christians.  Rumor has it that Jesus was one of them.

[Lisa418722]

16 hours ago, ariel said:

I find it sad that when someone says that they are a Christian people assume they are conservative.  There are plenty of liberal Christians.  Rumor has it that Jesus was one of them.

I'm on a Christian singles board (I cannot leave because I love snarking on them). Anyway, back during the election one of the guys said there is no way that a person can be a Christian and a liberal. I guess he has NEVER read Jesus' words. 

[ChiCricket]

OMGosh, I saw this posted in the comment section of the post  Derrick made soliciting more money.

I have admit, it made me laugh.

 But actually, it's kind of sad that these charlatans don't care how well off the people are who are donating, as long as they DONATE.

 I would like to know just why people donate to "ministers" like this?

Why isn't this against the law?! I know,I know. Free will and all that..but it just pisses me off.  

They're taking advange of people who can least afford it. :(                                /end rant

Edited August 28, 2017 by ChiCricket
extra s.

[Tabbygirl521]

On 6/30/2017 at 3:06 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Swaggart still has a teevee network begging for cash. 

Bakker is back on, too, but it might be some sort of public access channel. My sister digs up some of his stuff online. He is NUTS. We laugh and laugh and then cry, because he still has fans. 

[EAG46]

I'm surprised Swaggart and Bakker haven't latched onto the Duggars.  Are they all like magnets that repel each other because they're too alike?  

[Sew Sumi]

Swaggart is Pentecostal, so no way Boob hooks up with him. The music alone would send Mechelle and him into  vapors. Jimmy S. still has major game on the piano. 

Was Bakker denominational? I can't remember, and I'm too lazy to look it up. 

[crazycatlady58]

I cannot even begin to think of what the Duggars  would say about  the gift of speaking  in tongues .  If  they had never  heard it done theyes would  be in shock. 

[Temperance]

Bakker is all about politics. If he was around, it would hurt the show and possibly the network. 

[Jellybeans]

Welp, my atheist "friend" just dropped me as a friend because of where my fundy friend worked.  (religious place) No need for the story to be relayed here.  

For some reason it did not bother me because I am too old to be told who to be friends with.  Kindergarten was a long time ago.  I don't do extreme anything.

I would love to know more about the different religions.  Mind you, I do not want to do a serious study.  I lean towards the magical God Particle for lack of a better term.  

[Catfin]

I couldn't resist this one. 

[ariel]

13 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

Welp, my atheist "friend" just dropped me as a friend because of where my fundy friend worked.  (religious place) No need for the story to be relayed here.  

For some reason it did not bother me because I am too old to be told who to be friends with.  Kindergarten was a long time ago.  I don't do extreme anything.

You have posted before about this atheist "friend" that doesn't like your fundy friends.  If she is that much of a pain in the ass to you, you should drop her as a friend.

Edited August 31, 2017 by ariel

[Jellybeans]

6 hours ago, ariel said:

You have posted before about this atheist "friend" that doesn't like your fundy friends.  If she is that much of a pain in the ass to you, you should drop her as a friend.

She dropped me before I could drop her.  I won't see her again.  EVER.  On we go.

[Portia]

Years ago my son happened upon Joel Osteen on the TV and called him "Brother Blinky," and years later it's impossible for me to think of him by any other name.

He's always been weird-looking, but I agree with whoever said he looks like he's had work done.  If that's true, how vain is he? He's only 54!

[BitterApple]

Hey guys, this is too funny. I shit you not, this is a billboard down by the Strip here in Las Vegas. I wonder how Derelict Dullard would react:

[Future Cat Lady]

One of the many problems I have with the religious beliefs of the Duggars and others alike, is how they don't take responsability for anything. It's all God will provide, I pray for the answer or Satan made me do it. 

You're suppose to provide for your family. And if you do something bad it, it's your own damn fault.  

[ariel]

Very true.  I've made mistakes in my life , but I take responsibly for them.  Satan didn't make me do them.

[EAG46]

Although this article is from May, I think it is still relevant: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/05/has-evangelical-christianity-become-sociopathic/

[questionfear]

12 hours ago, EAG46 said:

Although this article is from May, I think it is still relevant: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/05/has-evangelical-christianity-become-sociopathic/

This is dead on. 

[Portia]

13 hours ago, EAG46 said:

Although this article is from May, I think it is still relevant: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/05/has-evangelical-christianity-become-sociopathic/

I checked this out at 3:00 this morning during a bout of insomnia, and I was stunned to see that a woman referenced in the article is an old friend from high school. No lie. I went to her wedding. She has a very distinctive name, but even so, I double-checked to make sure it's the same person. She's very pretty and sweet and devout, and apparently she's written her gay child out of her life. YIKES.

Edited to add: you know why I really can't understand someone making that decision?  Because my very devout Christian parents (who were born in the 1920s, mind you) never DREAMED of writing off my gay brother when he came out to them in the 1970s (when having an out gay child was very rare indeed in our community). They didn't consider it a compromise of their beliefs to remain in his life.  And you know, I think that is a major reason that he never abandoned the faith he was raised in. Today he himself is a very devout man and a strong leader in his church.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Portia

[Jellybeans]

I have stated before I am not religious.  I do live in a religious town and have known various religious people.  One of my best friends is a fundy and she is full of surprises.  

I don't think it is fair to tar and feather ALL religious people as being of one mindset.  They all think differently, at least the ones I have been friends with.  They subscribe to their beliefs, yes...but none of them abandoned their gay children, etc.  Nor did they disavow them.  Love is bigger than religion at the end of the day.

That article has a definite politically slant.  

[Portia]

30 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I don't think it is fair to tar and feather ALL religious people as being of one mindset.  They all think differently, at least the ones I have been friends with.  They subscribe to their beliefs, yes...but none of them abandoned their gay children, etc.  Nor did they disavow them.  Love is bigger than religion at the end of the day.

 

Thankfully, I have found that to be true as well. I have several ultra-conservative Christian friends with gay kids, and they've reacted in various ways--some great, some highly problematic--but until now I have not personally known someone who has completely shut the door on a gay kid.  

As a Christian believer who is frequently embarrassed by my "brothers and sisters," Jellybeans, I appreciate your determination to not paint us all with one broad brush.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Portia
typo

[Jellybeans]

Portia, I used to be embarrassed by their beliefs but then I realized it was because I personally did not subscribe to their beliefs...and who is to say I am right and they are wrong?  That feels arrogant.

[Portia]

6 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

Portia, I used to be embarrassed by their beliefs but then I realized it was because I personally did not subscribe to their beliefs...and who is to say I am right and they are wrong?  That feels arrogant.

That's an excellent point, and an example to us all.

[Arwen Evenstar]

15 hours ago, EAG46 said:

Although this article is from May, I think it is still relevant: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/05/has-evangelical-christianity-become-sociopathic/

That was awesome.  Thanks for sharing.

[EAG46]

Glad you all liked that article.  Explains quite a bit, doesn't it?

[questionfear]

3 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

I have stated before I am not religious.  I do live in a religious town and have known various religious people.  One of my best friends is a fundy and she is full of surprises.  

I don't think it is fair to tar and feather ALL religious people as being of one mindset.  They all think differently, at least the ones I have been friends with.  They subscribe to their beliefs, yes...but none of them abandoned their gay children, etc.  Nor did they disavow them.  Love is bigger than religion at the end of the day.

That article has a definite politically slant.  

I think the issue is that the fundamentalists who shout the loudest are the ones being criticized in the article...so while there may very well be fundamentalists and southern baptists who are lovely, welcoming people, they are being heavily drowned out by the people who believe it is their personal mission to force the world into their beliefs. 

All religions have the issue of loud extremists, but I think fundamentalists/baptists tend to be tarred with the same brush because the dissenters are very quiet. I have a very good friend who is a devout catholic, and she is one of the most liberal people I have ever met. I know many people in various protestant faiths who are also very open and welcoming.

But the strain of baptists/fundies that has spawned everyone from Falwell to the Duggars shouts over everyone else in those groups, using hateful language and purposely targeting legislation and social action to harm others. That's not me tarring all religious people, that's me pointing out that groups like Cross Church, like IBLP, like Gothard, like Falwell and Osteen, are fomenting hate. Anyone who continues to attend those groups is part of that hate in my opinion, because this isn't a case of "agree to disagree", this is a case where Duggars are robocalling about anti-trans legislation, where these are the groups actively working to take away women's rights and lgbt rights. If you agree with their social stances, there's plenty of other churches and christian sects to join who are both religious AND welcoming to others. But in my opinion, again, specifically targeting the fundies we discuss here, all of them are guilty of this by association. You can pick and choose some things about your religious institution that you dislike, but there's a difference between "I don't like their song choice" and "Gee, I don't like that they preached about gay people going to hell, but they're so nice otherwise", because that makes the silent folks just as shitty and evil as the ones doing the yelling. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

Portia, I used to be embarrassed by their beliefs but then I realized it was because I personally did not subscribe to their beliefs...and who is to say I am right and they are wrong?  That feels arrogant.

Point well taken. The issue is that a good many of them would say they are right but you are wrong. Your position is by far more respectful.

[Jellybeans]

I think we are supposed to be different from each other as people.  From the beginning of time people have disagreed on issues and always will.  That is what makes us interesting as a society.  

I don't think it is necessary to point out hate. It is not invisible.  

[questionfear]

2 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

I think we are supposed to be different from each other as people.  From the beginning of time people have disagreed on issues and always will.  That is what makes us interesting as a society.  

I don't think it is necessary to point out hate. It is not invisible.  

I disagree. If we don't call out hatred for what it is, then it is allowed to flourish. There is a difference between disagreeing and actively seeking harm. I am the grandchild of holocaust survivors, and I've heard my grandmother's stories. My great-grandmother managed to gather up four children (ages 3-15) and hid in the fields and farms around Poland. They survived because farmers did not ignore the hate, but instead risked their own lives to keep my great grandmother and her children alive. The farmers couldn't just bring them food if they hid in the barns because the Nazi soldiers were watching, so they did their best to smuggle in food under the pig slop or in hay bales. If the people of Poland had shrugged and said "well, we disagree on issues, but we all see the hate, but it's not our place to speak up" my grandmother's family would have been killed. 

I feel very, very strongly about free speech, but I also feel that there are some things we can't and shouldn't ignore, and hateful speech is #1 on my list. It is not my intention to offend or accuse your friends of being bad people, but to me, not speaking out about hatred is forgetting the lessons of the past.

Don't forget about Pastor Niemoller's famous quote about ignoring hatred, unfortunately still apt even today:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Jellybeans]

We can go back and forth with this but I will leave it here, thanks.  

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

I disagree. If we don't call out hatred for what it is, then it is allowed to flourish. There is a difference between disagreeing and actively seeking harm. I am the grandchild of holocaust survivors, and I've heard my grandmother's stories. My great-grandmother managed to gather up four children (ages 3-15) and hid in the fields and farms around Poland. They survived because farmers did not ignore the hate, but instead risked their own lives to keep my great grandmother and her children alive. The farmers couldn't just bring them food if they hid in the barns because the Nazi soldiers were watching, so they did their best to smuggle in food under the pig slop or in hay bales. If the people of Poland had shrugged and said "well, we disagree on issues, but we all see the hate, but it's not our place to speak up" my grandmother's family would have been killed. 

I feel very, very strongly about free speech, but I also feel that there are some things we can't and shouldn't ignore, and hateful speech is #1 on my list. It is not my intention to offend or accuse your friends of being bad people, but to me, not speaking out about hatred is forgetting the lessons of the past.

Don't forget about Pastor Niemoller's famous quote about ignoring hatred, unfortunately still apt even today:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Thank you! I'm sorry fo what your family has been through.