Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Temperance]

@Sew Sumi thanks for answering my questions both about the Bates in general and Lawson's special salute to the veterans.

[ariel]

9 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

 

So yes, real jobs scattered around in there, but no monumental shifts in core beliefs. 

Just enough" jobs" so they look like they had some sort of education & motivation. On paper, it makes them  look better than the  Duggars. I hope JB is pissed about this.

[BitterApple]

The Bateseses seems to be shifting backwards with this latest round of courtships though. Bobby has a "ministry mindset" and a useless degree from an unaccredited college and Evan comes from a family who's basically a more well-heeled version of the Rodriguii. I'm not quite sure why Tori and Carlin didn't hold out for something better, unless they were getting restless being stuck at home. 

[Sew Sumi]

I'm really afraid that Bobby is going to fall for Gil's snake oil salesman pitch about working for his rinky dink church. Bobby needs to be part of a much larger congregation, possibly in Knoxville if Tori doesn't want to leave home, or from wherever he's from, to reasonably support them. Even then, he'll probably need a second job. 

I'm not even sure what the hell Evan does, other than they have a family singing "ministry." But in those circles, who doesn't? But I haven't seen any reference to a job on his social media. Most people talk about it at some point, but not that kid. Maybe he's "employed" like Duggar boys (and Ben) are. Ben doesn't talk about scrubbing toilets for Jesus on his social media either, but he apparently does it for enough money to allow them dinners at Tacos4Life every week or so. 

[floridamom]

It's just not natural for young, grown women to still be living at home like they are 8 year olds. I understand the Bates are a bit better than the Duggars, but Carlin and Tori are women and have 'those inclinations and thoughts' about young men. Of course, they're ready to jump right in to a courtship and MARRIAGE.  I'm sure they're bored to death still at home, even though they're taking Crown College courses. They know that they're never going to USE any of that training and knowledge in a work force. Marriage it is.

Evan needs to get the heck out of Tennessee and make his life back here in Florida AWAY from her parents. Note to Evan:  Look at Jeremy Vuolo.

[Sew Sumi]

That's Bobby. Evan lives with his family in/near Nashville., and as far as they've said anything about him, he did not pursue higher education. :)

[floridamom]

Oh, they seem to resemble one another....my mistake. I still think they need to make their own way.

[andromeda331]

2 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Oh, they seem to resemble one another....my mistake. I still think they need to make their own way.

Your right. They both do.

[riverblue22]

I came across this interesting article on FB this morning:

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/fundamentalism-racism-fear-and-propaganda-an-insider-explains-why-rural-christian-white-america-will-never-change/

[Fallacy]

20 minutes ago, riverblue22 said:

I came across this interesting article on FB this morning:

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/06/fundamentalism-racism-fear-and-propaganda-an-insider-explains-why-rural-christian-white-america-will-never-change/

Brilliant article. 

[ariel]

The Christian Duggs don't eat pork  for some cherry picked verse in the OT. Do they eat shell fish?

Edited July 30, 2017 by ariel

[Sew Sumi]

I've never seen them eat fish. Period. 

[louannems]

In Japan, only Jenny would eat the fish.  She LOVED the shellfish,. I think mussels.  She ate a whole bowl of them!

The other Duggars, of course, turned their bland, greasy, white bread noses up at the local, beautiful Japanese cuisine.

[Sew Sumi]

I remember them turning up their noses at traditional Japanese breakfast, which is where I suppose Jenni ate the mussels? I DO remember various Duggarspawn, some who were old enough to know better, bringing junk food they had obviously put in their luggage down to the dining room for this meal. 

hashtag UglyAmericans

[Temperance]

When they were near DC and trying to eat healthy, I think Anna made salmon. 

[kokapetl]

I think shellfish might be off the menu for budget reasons. Duggars generally eat the cheapest meat. 

[ariel]

16 hours ago, louannems said:

In Japan, only Jenny would eat the fish.  She LOVED the shellfish,. I think mussels.  She ate a whole bowl of them!

The other Duggars, of course, turned their bland, greasy, white bread noses up at the local, beautiful Japanese cuisine.

Hmm, if pork is a biblical issue for the Duggs, I would think shellfish is too.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, ariel said:

Hmm, if pork is a biblical issue for the Duggs, I would think shellfish is too.

Of course that would be, you know, kind of logical ..... ; )

[Marshmallow Mollie]

On 7/29/2017 at 10:06 PM, Sew Sumi said:

I've never seen them eat fish. Period. 

You're forgetting the gourmet meal of drained tuna with bbq sauce.

[Sew Sumi]

Oh, I remember. Just not when I posted. ?

[xwordfanatik]

41 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

You're forgetting the gourmet meal of drained tuna with bbq sauce.

That sounds disgusting!  Boob's idea?

[Sew Sumi]

Yes and yes.

[ariel]

1 hour ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

You're forgetting the gourmet meal of drained tuna with bbq sauce.

I forgot about that.  Didn't Chef Boob, on one of the shows refer to hot dogs as "Tube Steak'?

[xwordfanatik]

1 hour ago, ariel said:

I forgot about that.  Didn't Chef Boob, on one of the shows refer to hot dogs as "Tube Steak'?

That just shows his perversity.  Even if he doesn't really get the innuendo, he's clearly obsessed with SEX, not only his, but the whole damn family.

#asshole

[Churchhoney]

Was just reading some Barbara Tuchman and came upon a statement that explains the kind of apparently-easy and hard-to-escape-even-years-later brainwashing process  that takes place in families like the Duggars and cults like Gothard's -- 

"Reasonable orders are easy enough to obey; it is capricious, bureaucratic or plain idiotic demands that form the habit of discipline." 

"Capricious, bureaucratic" and "plain idiotic" are what the Duggar kids have been socked with every day of their lives. And they've got the habit of unthinking, unblinking subservience that comes with it. Gothard, I expect, knew exactly what he was about. I do think that JB and M mostly just stumbled into doing the "right" thing for their ends because they're power-hungry malicious idiots whose intelligence is almost entirely used figuring out how to get other people to give them their way.

[riverblue22]

So I learned about a new gimmick through a Facebook group.  It's called a Keryx in Community weekend.  You go in a heathen and come out believing every single word of the Bible. I'll be sure and stay away!  With these groups, it seems like they lure you in with the words of Jesus and before you know it you knee-deep in Old Testament rules and laws.

https://keryxic.org/

[ariel]

2 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

So I learned about a new gimmick through a Facebook group.  It's called a Keryx in Community weekend.  You go in a heathen and come out believing every single word of the Bible. I'll be sure and stay away!  With these groups, it seems like they lure you in with the words of Jesus and before you know it you knee-deep in Old Testament rules and laws.

https://keryxic.org/

After that exciting weekend are these new "converts" eschewing bacon & shrimp to follow the Old Testament rules?

[riverblue22]

4 minutes ago, ariel said:

After that exciting weekend are these new "converts" eschewing bacon & shrimp to follow the Old Testament rules?

I don't really know how deep they go into "rules" like the Duggars but the religious pitch sounded very similar.

[ariel]

Just now, riverblue22 said:

I don't really know how deep they go into "rules" like the Duggars but the religious pitch sounded very similar.

If they are like the Duggars they probably cherry pick  & follow the things that are convenient for them & ignore the stuff that they find inconvenient.

[kalamac]

Screen caps of a thing I saw on tumblr about how the King James Version of the bible apparently came into being. Made me laugh, considering Jim Bob's idea that King James himself wrote it.

[MichaelaRae]

Just read this and couldn't help but think of the Duggars - KILL. ME. NOW. They'll let the world burn because Jesus and...more Jesus. http://www.salon.com/2017/08/21/how-evangelicals-support-white-supremacy-even-though-they-reject-racism_partner/

[riverblue22]

1 hour ago, MichaelaRae said:

Just read this and couldn't help but think of the Duggars - KILL. ME. NOW. They'll let the world burn because Jesus and...more Jesus. http://www.salon.com/2017/08/21/how-evangelicals-support-white-supremacy-even-though-they-reject-racism_partner/

That was well written, concise, and really hit the nail on the head!  Thanks for posting it.

[Jellybeans]

Well, this post might surprise some.  

I have two very different friends.  One is a fundy and one is atheist.  They know of each other but have never met.  I am spiritual, but not religious.  

We have talked about religious beliefs, politics, women's rights, etc... and the one thing I found to be consistently true with these two is my fundy friend is FAR more tolerant than my atheist friend.  It did not matter what the issue was either, she had room for other views.  She did not accept them as her own but she accepted them as other people's views.  My atheist friend on the other hand seems to think there is no room for diversity of thought.  Religion is for sheep, she says.  There is no room in her life for believers.  Whatever the issue, only hers was acceptable.

I am kind of surprised to be honest.. I thought it would be the other way around.  

It does not bother me because I tend to meet people where they're at.  Can't change people.  

Has anyone else had this experience?  

(and yeah, I hear about Jesus too.  I listen for a few...then change the subject LOL)

[Aja]

Speaking purely for myself (of course), there is a big component of my atheism that stems directly from the treatment I received at church and from other "good Christians" while growing up. I think that, for some, this component is a MUCH bigger piece of things. It's like, my aunt smoked 2 packs a day for a couple of decades and quit when I was a little kid. To this day, she talks about smokers like they murdered her whole family. She treats me like a mentally-challenged Satan worshipper because I haven't totally quit yet. You'd think she'd have some empathy, having been heavily addicted herself and having gone through the struggle of quitting. But no. For some people, the only way to cope with something is to demonize it completely. I can totally understand (although it is not my feeling) someone who has zero tolerance for religion, especially when you experienced spiritual and emotional abuse growing up (extremely common), and then you watch people try to make it the law of the fucking land. That's hard to watch. I'm homosexual and there is no getting around how "religion" feels about me. I really have to struggle to maintain a more balanced and open view of religion--I do this for my own sanity, because I would go insane in very short order if I let anger and resentment I feel when Jesus is called into LITERALLY EVERYTHING. When "that's what it says in the Bible" is sufficient to BASE A LAW UPON. It's probably easier for someone who doesn't have a personal stake in anything to be more relaxed about it.

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, Jellybeans said:

Well, this post might surprise some.  

I have two very different friends.  One is a fundy and one is atheist.  They know of each other but have never met.  I am spiritual, but not religious.  

We have talked about religious beliefs, politics, women's rights, etc... and the one thing I found to be consistently true with these two is my fundy friend is FAR more tolerant than my atheist friend.  It did not matter what the issue was either, she had room for other views.  She did not accept them as her own but she accepted them as other people's views.  My atheist friend on the other hand seems to think there is no room for diversity of thought.  Religion is for sheep, she says.  There is no room in her life for believers.  Whatever the issue, only hers was acceptable.

I am kind of surprised to be honest.. I thought it would be the other way around.  

It does not bother me because I tend to meet people where they're at.  Can't change people.  

Has anyone else had this experience?  

(and yeah, I hear about Jesus too.  I listen for a few...then change the subject LOL)

I am curious, though, will the fundy friend accept secular laws that disagree with her religious beliefs? I've encountered fundamentalists who tell me they understand there are other ideas, people are welcome to their opinions, etc., but in the next breath they'll tell me that while I am free to make my own choices, they believe my choices are sending me to hell. Or that they won't force their religion on me, but we should absolutely ban same-sex marriage because religion, even though they JUST said they know there's other views.

Sometimes (and I am not at all saying your friend is like that) it seems like some fundamentalists use a false aura of acceptance to get away with their views. 

[bythelake]

I grew up Catholic in a large Northeastern city. We had churches of all denominations as well as 2 synagogues. I may have been isolated going to a school where every other child was the same religion, but my neighborhood was very diverse. My playmates were Jewish, Protestant and African American. We all got along.  I ate in their homes, and they in mine. At no time did any one wave a bible tract or try to impart their religion on me, or I on them. All of my neighbors were kind people. One couple took in 2 young nephews from France that had been in a concentration camp, another took care of his children while his wife was in a sanitarium for TB. My mother who was a widow cared for her elderly father, but had time to cook for a neighbor in need, as well as wash and iron the altar cloths for our church. Someone was always helping a neighbor.

I never came across a Southern Baptist or Fundy. In fact, I had never heard of fundies until the Duggar show. But what I see about these fundies, is they are not very charitable. They criticize, impart fear, and speak of Armageddon if you don't follow their ways, but I never see or hear of them doing anything  to help anyone who is not family. When I think of the Duggars I think of the seven deadly sins. Sloth = Michelle, Envy = Jessa re: Jana's music box, Greed= Jim Bob, Pride=the married girls pregnant selfies, Lust= Josh, Five out of seven Duggars!!i  

I'm certainly  not condemning all Baptists or fundies with this rant, just these people who have preached to the world that their way is the only way to salvation. They are not very nice people.

[Genevrier]

There's a large Northeastern city with only two synagogues? Honest question.

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

 My atheist friend on the other hand seems to think there is no room for diversity of thought.  Religion is for sheep, she says.  There is no room in her life for believers.  Whatever the issue, only hers was acceptable.

The dearly departed Mr. Absolom was a devout atheist with no room for anyone else's beliefs.  Like your friend, he called believers of any kind sheep and worse.  It was one of the few things we fought over.  

[Aja]

42 minutes ago, bythelake said:

I grew up Catholic in a large Northeastern city. We had churches of all denominations as well as 2 synagogues. I may have been isolated going to a school where every other child was the same religion, but my neighborhood was very diverse. My playmates were Jewish, Protestant and African American. We all got along.  I ate in their homes, and they in mine. At no time did any one wave a bible tract or try to impart their religion on me, or I on them. All of my neighbors were kind people. One couple took in 2 young nephews from France that had been in a concentration camp, another took care of his children while his wife was in a sanitarium for TB. My mother who was a widow cared for her elderly father, but had time to cook for a neighbor in need, as well as wash and iron the altar cloths for our church. Someone was always helping a neighbor.

I never came across a Southern Baptist or Fundy. In fact, I had never heard of fundies until the Duggar show. But what I see about these fundies, is they are not very charitable. They criticize, impart fear, and speak of Armageddon if you don't follow their ways, but I never see or hear of them doing anything  to help anyone who is not family. When I think of the Duggars I think of the seven deadly sins. Sloth = Michelle, Envy = Jessa re: Jana's music box, Greed= Jim Bob, Pride=the married girls pregnant selfies, Lust= Josh, Five out of seven Duggars!!i  

I'm certainly  not condemning all Baptists or fundies with this rant, just these people who have preached to the world that their way is the only way to salvation. They are not very nice people.

That was great, Bythelake! I was actually talking to a Mormon woman recently about various sundries, and was impressed with how livid spreading hate in the name of "Jesus" made her. She knew of the Duggars and, if possible, her opinion of them is lower than mine. I can totally see that side of things too. If I was an avid believer, I wouldn't take too kindly to people turning my religion into The White Man Child Abuse Club.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Aja

[ariel]

The Atheist I know have no tolerance for homophobia, racism, or misogyny.  They are intolerant of those they think are intolerant.

[GeeGolly]

I live in a religiously diverse area and unless we're very close to each other we often don't know each other's belief system. Of my close friends, who practice many religions or no religion at all, beliefs rarely come up. Religion does come up during some of the therapeutic groups I run and I only can remember having to calm one discussion and the 'offender' was actually Catholic. So I'd say all in all most folks outwardly respect each other's religions/non-religions in my circles. 

[bythelake]

My friends and I very seldom discuss religion, and I never discuss it with my neighbors. Funny story, one of our neighbors practices Wiccan. Her daughter and my granddaughter have been friends since 1st grade and now they are both in college. She has been a good friend to our family. Her home is decorated with statues of witches and drawings of skulls. She even has a black cat. The first time I visited, it was a little creepy, but as long as she doesn't put a spell on me, I'm good.

[kalamac]

I'm athiest, but I recognise everyone's right to believe what they wish, even when I don't understand how they can believe in stuff that I find unbelievable. have many friends of other religions, and we're friends even though they'be often said they don't understand how I don't believe.

Edited August 22, 2017 by kalamac

[Lisa418722]

3 hours ago, bythelake said:

I'm certainly  not condemning all Baptists or fundies with this rant, just these people who have preached to the world that their way is the only way to salvation. They are not very nice people.

1

I grew up going to a Southern Baptist church, but they were NOTHING like this group.  I don't know if it's because I went to a smaller church (under 100 people) or if it was the times (1970's and 1980's), but it's only been the last few years that I've encountered fundies in my life. For the most part, those people go to larger churches (3000 members or more).  If I ran across someone like the Duggars trying to tell me their way is the only way, even though I do believe the same way, for my peace of mind there is no way I would get into any sort of conversation with them regarding religion.  I sometimes have Jehovah's Witnesses come up to me at the gas station (since that is a place you can't really just walk away) and most people are nice when I tell them I have my own beliefs. I'm not going to yell and preach at them and hopefully, they won't act that way towards me either. Most of the time they ask me if I want one of their pamphlets and when I refuse, they walk off.  That to me is respecting each other.  

Edited August 22, 2017 by Lisa418722

[Jellybeans]

3 hours ago, questionfear said:

I am curious, though, will the fundy friend accept secular laws that disagree with her religious beliefs? I've encountered fundamentalists who tell me they understand there are other ideas, people are welcome to their opinions, etc., but in the next breath they'll tell me that while I am free to make my own choices, they believe my choices are sending me to hell. Or that they won't force their religion on me, but we should absolutely ban same-sex marriage because religion, even though they JUST said they know there's other views.

Sometimes (and I am not at all saying your friend is like that) it seems like some fundamentalists use a false aura of acceptance to get away with their views. 

My fundy friend thinks I am going to hell, because Jesus.  But she does not shove it down my throat at all or try to convert me. She "knows" she won't see me in Heaven.  It does not bother me at all that she thinks this way and she knows it.  Nor does she like Catholics but she would never tell them that.  In other words, she is quiet with her opinions except when we converse.  And she accepts I am going to hell (lol) and loves me anyway.

My atheist friend would argue with anyone who is against anything she is against.  If I am honest, if all things are equal, I would choose to spend more time with my fundy friend because not everything is an issue but I adore her and accept my atheist friend just the same.

I don't think I will ever have a party with these two together haha!

[andromeda331]

My friends and I talk about religions.  We have fun talking and debating the different religions. But mostly find them fascinating. We've had fun discussing, researching and learning Wicca, Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, ancient religions that are no longer practiced. So many are so fascinating, their writings are beautiful and customs. We've had fun at First Communions, Bat and Bar Mitzvahs and enjoyed the religious aspects. We love talking about the different cultures around the world and history. The world's a fascinating place full of fascinating people.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by andromeda331

[Aja]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

My friends and I talk about religions.  We have fun talking and debating the different religions. But mostly find them fascinating. We've had fun discussing, researching and learning Wicca, Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, ancient religions that are no longer practiced. So many are so fascinating, their writings are beautiful and customs. We've had fun at First Communions, Bat and Bar Mitzvahs and enjoyed the religious aspects. We love talking about the different cultures around the world and history. The world's a fascinating place full of fascinating people.  

I wish to hug you!

[questionfear]

15 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

My fundy friend thinks I am going to hell, because Jesus.  But she does not shove it down my throat at all or try to convert me. She "knows" she won't see me in Heaven.  It does not bother me at all that she thinks this way and she knows it.  Nor does she like Catholics but she would never tell them that.  In other words, she is quiet with her opinions except when we converse.  And she accepts I am going to hell (lol) and loves me anyway.

My atheist friend would argue with anyone who is against anything she is against.  If I am honest, if all things are equal, I would choose to spend more time with my fundy friend because not everything is an issue but I adore her and accept my atheist friend just the same.

I don't think I will ever have a party with these two together haha!

Gotcha. See, I don't think I could be friends with someone who thinks I am going to hell (though for me, as a Jewish lesbian, I don't foresee many fundies seeking me out as a friend over time for that reason). I've seen too many friendships be rocked or destroyed by people who said they were tolerant, but then their tolerance ended when they were asked to attend or participate in a major life event (ie attending a same-sex wedding, acknowledging the birth of a child to a same-sex couple). You aren't my friend and you aren't a good family member if you can't show up to celebrate life events, I don't care how much you tell me you can "tolerate" me. 

Personally, I lean towards the paradox of tolerance. I don't need to smile and nod and respect someone who tells me I am going to hell, and I don't need to respect someone who believes I don't have any rights in this country. I grew up in Reform Judaism, which is extremely liberal and tolerant, so for me, any religion that isn't comparable to that makes me uncomfortable (and I include extreme Orthodox Jews in that as well). 

[RainbowBrite]

18 hours ago, ariel said:

The Atheist I know have no tolerance for homophobia, racism, or misogyny.  They are intolerant of those they think are intolerant.

I personally relate to this. I am an atheist and I don't discuss it with many people because honestly, it is a lack of faith or belief in any sort of religion so in its essence, there shouldn't be much to talk about.

I begin to have a problem with someone who uses religion to support their homophobia/racism/misogyny. Without hiding behind their religion, I don't think someone could really defend their views on women, the LGBTQ+ community, etc.

I have a hard time with religion as a whole because I see it as a source for most of the major conflicts, from the beginning of civilization.

Edited August 23, 2017 by RainbowBrite
added a word

[crazycatlady58]

53 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Gotcha. See, I don't think I could be friends with someone who thinks I am going to hell (though for me, as a Jewish lesbian, I don't foresee many fundies seeking me out as a friend over time for that reason). I've seen too many friendships be rocked or destroyed by people who said they were tolerant, but then their tolerance ended when they were asked to attend or participate in a major life event (ie attending a same-sex wedding, acknowledging the birth of a child to a same-sex couple). You aren't my friend and you aren't a good family member if you can't show up to celebrate life events, I don't care how much you tell me you can "tolerate" me. 

Personally, I lean towards the paradox of tolerance. I don't need to smile and nod and respect someone who tells me I am going to hell, and I don't need to respect someone who believes I don't have any rights in this country. I grew up in Reform Judaism, which is extremely liberal and tolerant, so for me, any religion that isn't comparable to that makes me uncomfortable (and I include extreme Orthodox Jews in that as well). 

I agree that you are not a good friend  if you do not show up  for major life  event. Please do not tar all Christians with  the same brush . I would  have no problem  showing up for the same-sex  marriage  of a friend . I would  love to go to the baby  shower  of the same couple . There is a wide range  of beliefs in the Christian  community , it seems  to be the more extreme  that are shown  on T.V. It hurts  my heart that your  friends  were hurt like that.