Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Arwen Evenstar]

14 minutes ago, EAG46 said:

Another fine Yiddish word to describe Jim Bob: Schmuck.  

That just goes without saying.

Schlepper, schlump, zhlub, nudnik, putz, schmeckel also come to mind.

[Love2dance]

10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Schmuck

LOL, I was going to mention that one. It's also the name of the principal of my school in K-1 grades. He moved on, but the pictures remain. Needless to say, I learned that word very early in life. :D

That poor man. Sad.

10 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

That just goes without saying.

Schlepper, schlump, zhlub, nudnik, putz, schmeckel also come to mind.

Hahahaha.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Love2dance
Left out important word.

[MunichNark]

On 13.1.2017 at 8:52 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

God bless the Jewish people. They have come up with the most wonderful Yiddish word long ago that describes the Duggars in general and Boob in particular.  Schnorrer!

 

"Schnorren" is german or at least it is used there. It means basically someone who begs money/stuff/favours off other people without paying it back in some way.

[Fosca]

Yiddish seems to be closely related to German, so it's not too surprising the word is similar.

[Arwen Evenstar]

8 hours ago, MunichNark said:

"Schnorren" is german or at least it is used there. It means basically someone who begs money/stuff/favours off other people without paying it back in some way.

Yep, Yiddish and English are both classified as Germanic languages...no surprise with the similarity there.

[questionfear]

On 1/16/2017 at 9:39 AM, Fosca said:

Yiddish seems to be closely related to German, so it's not too surprising the word is similar.

Yep, Yiddish is basically what you get when you toss German in a blender with Hebrew. 

The big difference, in my mind, is that everything German sounds vaguely angry, while everything Yiddish sounds vaguely like an insult or a joke. (This might be because when I was a kid my grandparents would speak in Yiddish if they didn't want us to understand them, so the only Yiddish I learned were insults and jokes.)

[Churchhoney]

Didn't know Sonny Perdue was a Gothard devotee. Knew he prayed for rain after rain was already predicted and then thought he'd achieved something. But I didn't know he apparently used that to boost the "ideas" of old Bill. The minions of Gothard are hard to stop.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2017/01/19/trump-picks-longtime-disciple-of-gothard-cult-sonny-perdue-for-cabinet-position/

 

While Govenor of Georgia, Perdue employed a Gothard principle of public confession and prayer in an attempt to end a drought. Though the drought came after Perdue led waste of water and natural resources, Perdue stood in the Capital grounds and, according to Christianity Today, confessed, “Oh, Father, we acknowledge our wastefulness. But we’re doing better. And I thought it was time to acknowledge that to the Creator, the Provider of Water and Land, and to tell Him that we will do better”. This confession took place soon after the National Weather Service had already forecast rain. However, IBLP still uses this story to show how applying their principles creates success.

Perdue’s involvement with IBLP led him to also help teach these 7 Basic Principles to other world leaders and businessmen. In 2011 nearly 30 leaders, teachers, and businessmen from Peru attended a ten day conference at IBLP headquarters in Hinsdale, IL to learn how to apply Gothard’s teachings and financial principles. Perdue was one of the featured leaders of this conference. He has not been content with using cult teaching just within his own government position, but has actively tried to spread these teaching across the world.

Now, Perdue is in a position to be part of the inner circle of one of the most powerful world leaders. He admittedly uses Gothard’s cult teachings as one of his main guiding principles. He has also shown that he is willing to spread these teachings as far as possible.

[riverblue22]

Thanks for the info Churchhoney.  It just keeps getting worse....

[BradandJanet]

Yep, Perdue, Pence, DeVos, and Carson, among others, have a plan for us, and it looks a lot like life in Duggarville with a glorious headship like Jim Bob or something out of the Handmaid's Tale. Other people have a plan for us too (Bannon), but I'm not sure it's the same plan as the Dominionists'. It might involve your savings confiscated for the great future. Somebody's in for a nasty reveal, I fear, and I doubt it includes a happy future for anybody's little children, no matter what their parents believe. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by BradandJanet
punct,

[GeeGolly]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:31 PM, Churchhoney said:

Didn't know Sonny Perdue was a Gothard devotee. Knew he prayed for rain after rain was already predicted and then thought he'd achieved something. But I didn't know he apparently used that to boost the "ideas" of old Bill. The minions of Gothard are hard to stop.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2017/01/19/trump-picks-longtime-disciple-of-gothard-cult-sonny-perdue-for-cabinet-position/

 

While Govenor of Georgia, Perdue employed a Gothard principle of public confession and prayer in an attempt to end a drought. Though the drought came after Perdue led waste of water and natural resources, Perdue stood in the Capital grounds and, according to Christianity Today, confessed, “Oh, Father, we acknowledge our wastefulness. But we’re doing better. And I thought it was time to acknowledge that to the Creator, the Provider of Water and Land, and to tell Him that we will do better”. This confession took place soon after the National Weather Service had already forecast rain. However, IBLP still uses this story to show how applying their principles creates success.

Perdue’s involvement with IBLP led him to also help teach these 7 Basic Principles to other world leaders and businessmen. In 2011 nearly 30 leaders, teachers, and businessmen from Peru attended a ten day conference at IBLP headquarters in Hinsdale, IL to learn how to apply Gothard’s teachings and financial principles. Perdue was one of the featured leaders of this conference. He has not been content with using cult teaching just within his own government position, but has actively tried to spread these teaching across the world.

Now, Perdue is in a position to be part of the inner circle of one of the most powerful world leaders. He admittedly uses Gothard’s cult teachings as one of his main guiding principles. He has also shown that he is willing to spread these teachings as far as possible.

Oh Fuck.

[Sew Sumi]

Cross-posting the new Gothard documentary in this thread, since it deals with the nuts and bolts of IBLP/ATI. The Duggars are heavily featured. The movie itself is in the pinned post. 

https://www.facebook.com/thecultnextdoor/

[lookeyloo]

Just watched.  Very scary stuff.  Trial approaching.  

[Sew Sumi]

I'm glad they interviewed some survivors (Micah sure gets around), but that older lady still seemed to be holding on a bit. It just illustrates how hard it is to truly break away from these cults. Money and education issues aside, I think the younger the person, and the less indoctrinated you are in adult life, the easier the break may be. For instance, any of the married Duggar kidults would find it harder to pull away than, say, Josiah, who's very personable, or even JD, who has seen more of the normal world than anyone of his generation in that family (male spouses, excepting Austin, who's as steeped as any Duggar, aside).

[Churchhoney]

For anybody who doesn't want to join Facebook  but wants to watch the little Gothard piece, you can see Vimeo stuff like that by joining -- and they have free option. It's just a matter of whether you want to send one more company your email address! 

Thanks for pointing us to this, those who did. 

Some comments from the ex-Gothardites that struck me, including in connection to the young-adult Duggarlings: 

One guy said that now that he's been in therapy for a time, he sees that the cult was actually "engineered to create psychological damage," although he can't say whether that was on purpose or by accident. "When you read what causes [psychological' issues it reads like a description of the Gothard organization." 

Problems besetting young adults who've grown up in the group include, according to that guy, codependency, attachment issues, anxiety disorders, lack of a sense of self, lack of a sense of boundaries and difficulty with intimate relationships......                 Hmmm? Codependency much? 

Legacy of the Gothard organization "is the exact opposite of what BG promised." –He promised happy well-adjusted families whose kids were going to grow up to be leaders in the church, in business, and so on. But the reality of what's resulted is -- young divorced families, people leaving faith completely, people whose "daily experience is struggling to keep their heads above water because of the emotional and psychological scars they have from being in the organization."

Several people mentioned the extreme isolation of it for kids. One woman who has left said it leaves people not knowing how to have social relationships. She said that when it comes to professional and social skills, she always feels as if she's seven to 10 years behind where normal people are. 

"You don't know that it's a cult while you're in it. And it's designed so that you won't know that it's a cult." 

"It's a long way to come back from being in a cult, to find yourself again, to find solid ground again." 

On the sexual abuse allegations -- "He always had a way of finding vulnerable people."

Edited March 1, 2017 by Churchhoney

[SMama]

The isolation is key for the other pieces to fall in place. I will forever be grateful for my Pentecostal cousins, who showed me music is OK in church. Even if we were not close, my Baptist paternal grandparents would occasionally take me to their church. My grandpa was a non practicing Catholic who told me to concentrate on being an honest, loving, happy, hard working human being. My bio mother graduated from an Episcopalian university and eventually was baptized in that faith. She bought my clothes so I wore dresses to church and pants for everyday life (save some school skirts). And of course attending a Catholic school.

I still have some REALLY serious hang ups over my 16 years as a SDA, but all those other pieces of my life allowed me to move on and it eased some of the guilt. I can't imagine what a mess I'd be if the only people I ever associated were devout SDAs.

I do feel for the 19 and hope this short documentary turns into a one hour documentary. Hopefully the main stream media will pick it up because of the Duggar/Bates connection. The more exposure the better. A girl can dream. 

Of course he always found vulnerable people. Abusers are excellent at picking a vulnerable target, and then on to the manipulation of grooming. Even better, parents were willingly sending him victims by the bus load. 

[Almost 3000]

The short doc was a start but if I didn't already know about Gothard it didn't have any hooks to get me invested in the story. They probably were afraid of putting to much out there due to lawsuits.

[GeeGolly]

I Googled it on my tablet and a site Let Me Be Foolish has it on there.

The documentary was okay. Almost too kind or too low key in my opinion. And while Micah is right about the Gothard culture setting folks up for possible mental health issues later in life, he made it sound like life outside of a cult can save folks from that struggle, and that is far from the truth.

I hope it's a first in a series, rather than a stand alone short film.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Almost 3000 said:

The short doc was a start but if I didn't already know about Gothard it didn't have any hooks to get me invested in the story. They probably were afraid of putting to much out there due to lawsuits.

Or it was just a documentary done by somebody who wanted to tell this story but hasn't done much documentary making or writing before. That's kind of the impression I had. It looked to me like a bit of a beginner effort. Plus, of course, getting ex-members of any cult to say anything much that's exciting is hard. Especially because people tend to have family members that remain inside.

Nevertheless, here in a place where we're always saying, "What the heck's wrong with those damn Duggar kids?" it seemed pretty illuminating to me. If those folks are to be believed there are similar things wrong with a lot of people raised Gothard. And they sounded pretty credible to me. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Churchhoney

[lookeyloo]

And it had GoFundMe contributors in the credits

[ChiCricket]

I just watched it, and can't believe I live SO close to where Gothard operated and  still lives. I shop in Oakbrook all the time, and my doctor is in LaGrange. I feel really creeped out that all of this went on in towns really close to mine, and I had no clue. 

 I found this while googling it all after viewing this short film:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/July-2016/Institute-in-Basic-Life-Principles-Hinsdale/

From which this stood out to me:

"The third of six children, Gothard was, by his teenage years, deeply religious. According to his bio on the IBLP website, he “began working with inner-city gangs in Chicago”

Ok..I have to say that's GUTSY if he actually went into those neighborhoods.

Edited March 2, 2017 by ChiCricket
.

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

I just watched it, and can't believe I live SO close to where Gothard operated and  still lives. I shop in Oakbrook all the time, and my doctor is in LaGrange. I feel really creeped out that all of this went on in towns really close to mine, and I had no clue. 

 I found this while googling it all after viewing this short film:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/July-2016/Institute-in-Basic-Life-Principles-Hinsdale/

From which this stood out to me:

"The third of six children, Gothard was, by his teenage years, deeply religious. According to his bio on the IBLP website, he “began working with inner-city gangs in Chicago”

Ok..I have to say that's GUTSY if he actually went into those neighborhoods.

Oh, I do think that the Gothard boys (don't know anything about the sisters ) are gutsy. Honestly, you can't be a coward and be the kind of brazen, shameless repeat criminals that Bill and his two brothers are (two persistent sexual predators, one persistent financial con man, at least two and maybe all three of them involved in a very audacious and -- for decades -- expanding cult scheme that promises men they can exert control and DOMINANCE over their offspring for life -- and DELIVERS). The Gothard boys have brazened it out a lot. They aren't cowards. Just unethical power-mad jerks, really, I think. 

[Nysha]

From Jinger's thread: 

Quote

Grew up evangelical/fundie and our churches and schools were very legalistic about dress, music, movies (no skirts above the knee, no secular music, no dancing, no gambling, no drinking, blah blah) yet nothing about food.  No mention of not eating pork, except to reference how this was done by the Jews in the OT.  I did meet Messianic Jews who did not eat pork (but even so- why even them, if Jesus?), but I can't imagine why Christians would feel this is necessary- would love some input from those who know!  

I really do feel the picking and choosing of what to follow and what not to follow from the OT/NT is strange and culturally driven!

1

Just about every conservative/evangelical church has the main biggies - anti-gay, pro-life, no premarital sex, and no smoking, drinking, or drugs. I was a member of the Wesleyan church for many years and we were also supposed to abstain from dancing and going to the movies, and boys were warned about the sin of masturbation, but they ordained women and couldn't care less if you had kids or not. I sat in a Sunday School class where the same women who praised the local Catholic hospital for no performing abortion, condemned it in the next breath for not tying their tubes. They had logical reasons for their cherry-picked Biblical laws: the wine that Jesus drank was very diluted and He only drank it because water was scarce; Paul (Peter?) admonishing women to not talk in church was specific to that church, that culture, that era; certain foods forbidden then, but are now okay because refrigeration makes them safe...on and on and on. They, the Nazarenes, and the Evangelical Friends Church were the closest to following Christ, every other church had strayed one way or the other.

I only know a couple of Messianic Jews, but they follow all the common Jewish restrictions because they consider that part of their Jewish heritage. Makes as much sense as telling boys not masturbate because God killed some guy who "spilled his seed on the ground" rather than impregnate his dead brother's widow.

[GeeGolly]

On the surface it appears the more self-punishing one is the more Fundy one is. It feels like the basic rule is, if it brings you joy - stop. If putting others and God first is the goal why does one need to avoid enjoyable things that have no effect on others?

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

On the surface it appears the more self-punishing one is the more Fundy one is. It feels like the basic rule is, if it brings you joy - stop. If putting others and God first is the goal why does one need to avoid enjoyable things that have no effect on others?

My theory is that it's mainly the insecure and fearful people who are actually attracted to this. And if you're insecure and fearful down underneath, you may be very attracted to a strict set of rules that come authoritatively down from above -- because then you can be sure sure sure that you're okay. Plus -- you can wave your obedience to those rules around to prove to everybody that you're among the truly select. And joy tends to be sort of relaxed and spontaneous. You don't get a book of rules that tells you how to have joy -- you kind of have to find that on your own. That's dangerous! 

I think there's some support beyond my often biased logic to back up insecurity and fear generating attraction to authoritarian and legalistic stuff, right? 

Kind of Erich Fromm "Escape from Freedom" stuff?

[queenanne]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

On the surface it appears the more self-punishing one is the more Fundy one is. It feels like the basic rule is, if it brings you joy - stop. If putting others and God first is the goal why does one need to avoid enjoyable things that have no effect on others?

I think, because if you enjoy it you'll be relaxed, and being relaxed leads you to have your guard down and, thus that's when sin creeps in.

I think that's at minimum the idea behind the "Satan built a fortress in my heart".

[kalamac]

When it would be so much easier, and way less stressful to have the mindset of "I'm going to enjoy all these amazing, fun things and interesting people because God created them." That's the bit I never get, why follow a vengeful disapproving God, when you could have a loving, accepting one instead.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, kalamac said:

When it would be so much easier, and way less stressful to have the mindset of "I'm going to enjoy all these amazing, fun things and interesting people because God created them." That's the bit I never get, why follow a vengeful disapproving God, when you could have a loving, accepting one instead.

Apparently, if you're neurotically fearful, it may not be easier and less stressful? Because .... what if????   What if they seem fun and amazing and interesting ... buuuut they're really the devil in disguise???? And what IF this loving accepting God you're telling me exists is really the DEVIL IN DISGUISE???? What IF? What IF? What IF? .... I'd better go with the disapproving God because then I'll do SO LITTLE that my risk of doing something WRONG goes way down...

I'd bet that's something like the reasoning. That certainly seems to be the principle at the Duggar house. "You guys might get into trouble if you do anything. So our family motto is, 'Just sit down there on the bus-station couch.' That way, you won't run into any trouble." 

Can't be sure, of course, because I go with your reasoning. But something tells me that the premises of these people may be different from ours. 

[louannems]

After a childhood of being a Catholic, including 12 years of Catholic school, I became a Seventh Day Adventist! I was a very young for my age, naive 24 year old.  I was a virgin until nearly 21 because I rarely dated (no one asked me).  I became pregnant on a one night stand while I was in the Air Force.  I got out, had my baby and began working with a chiropractor who was SDA. I attended book of Revelation and Daniel seminars at the local SDA church, which scared the crap out of me. I got baptized and became a member in a small SDA, small town church.  The people in the more rural SDA churches were really into first time obedience, no make-up, no dancing, no cards, no movies, you were really devout if you had no TV and homeschooled.  The members constantly talked about the evil influences of metropolitan areas. I became disallussioned with all the child abuse and strictness, and after college, I took a job in Seattle.  A church dessert! After working in Seattle and meeting all sorts of people, I quit attending church.  My mind opened to so many new ideas.  My husband also quit attending, but he was born and raised in the SDA church, including their boarding school and college.  It's been 16 years since we've attended, yet husband WOULD NEVER, EVER EAT PORK OR SEAFOOD! It's ingrained in him and he seriously believes these foods are unclean! I have no problem eating them! Of course, the Adventists do believe they are the only true Christians.

[zoomama]

louannems, it is a shame that 'church people' got you turned off from going and growing. there are some wonderful churches up there, i am sure, since i have a sister in the marysville area and she attends a great church.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yeah, I think a bad church experience has turned far too many away from attending church. 

Everywhere one looks, there are bad teachers, doctors, pastors etc.  Keep looking until you find one you like, that is if you are so inclined.

[GeeGolly]

I've never had a bad experience in house of worship, I've just never had an overwhelming good one either. I think my brain is hard wired to question formal religions, yet at the same time I can find myself envying some folks deep faith and sense of community. I know, doesn't make much sense, but that's the way I roll.

[Guest]

I quit sunday school because we weren't learning anything new, each year it was a repeat of what we already knew and so I asked to stop going to church. My parents said okay and that was that. Now, I'm an agnostic/atheist and my dad doesn't like it.

[MunichNark]

I don't get this kind of fundy mindset at all, but I am an evil Catholic of sorts. I don't even begin to understand that "personal relationship with Jesus" or "are you saved" stuff. WHAT is that all about?

Jesus is not my pal, bestie or mate. He isn't supposed to be. And being saved, well, you don't bloody KNOW anything until you die. Then you can talk. This kind of thinking drives me mad, as it leads to such nasty behaviour.

[Micks Picks]

I'm with you MunichNark.  I just don't get it.  There is all the talk about Adam and Eve and being forgiven already.  So the finance of Tabitha wrote like he was already forgiven for his sins of drunkeness, drugs, and rape, so why apologize to the victims.  I mean, it is astounding and I don't get it at all.  As a Catholic, I was held accountable.  

[kassygreene]

I was in high school in Nashville in the early 70s, and I apparently had a "save me" sign pinned to my back, because I got approached by people wanting to save me all the time.  It was incredibly annoying, and I also consider it to be unforgivably intrusive, as I have read the Constitution + Amendments, and I actually understand the words.

Anyway, sometimes these people seemed to be a bit competitive in how saved they were, but mostly they seemed to have learned the right phrases, mastered the correct expressions and vocal inflections, and were busily adding to their saved column.

Yep, I definitely found them annoying and intrusive.  And while I will accept that most (maybe all) of them are sincere, I rarely see evidence of it being anything more than memorize and repeat.  

I have a non-liturgical and also science-oriented background, go figure.  The ability to synthesize experience into new expressions of thought, and if you are fortunate, into a new way of looking at something, is highly prized in my background. Regurgitating other people's thoughts with little or no comprehension, not so much.

[LilJen]

Anyone else seen these? They show off KNEES. Highly defrauding!!

[ChiCricket]

3 hours ago, LilJen said:

Anyone else seen these? They show off KNEES. Highly defrauding!!

WTHeck?!   They do not look at all comfortable.

[Love2dance]

5 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

WTHeck?!   They do not look at all comfortable.

I don't think I have ever seen anything uglier. Are they punking women?

[ginger90]

They remind me of bubble umbrellas. 

[queenanne]

15 hours ago, ginger90 said:

They remind me of bubble umbrellas. 

I was thinking those really cheap transparent rain ponchos, myself.

[Love2dance]

The clear knee jeans were featured on the Today Show this morning. To bring it back to topic, they almost make the Duggar modesty for God clothes look good......almost.

[louannems]

Last night, reading in bed, I got sucked down the Are They All Yours blog rabbit hole! Pissing Preacher's wife Szu Anderson.  I stayed up half the night reading and watching her videos. On her latest questions and answers video, she comes off as a no nonsense, matter of fact mom. She breast fed Chloe without A Modesty Drape.

She spouts nonsense at a quick clip.  None of the posturing and preening of JillRod. She took her family off whole grains because they leech minerals from the bloodstream and were causing a big problem with cavities among her brood!  Since no whole grains and white flour only bread, they haven't had a problem with tooth decay!  But not modern wheat; no, only ancient wheat.

Later, she says her husband and most of her kids have genetic tongue tie, which inhibits saliva flow, thus causing tooth decay!

Her coldness while discussing spanking chilled me. And Disneyland has homo days. Amazon likes the gays, but that is all right, since they live in the world, and she has no problem ordering from them. Parents whose children need to be removed from the home and put into foster care should be executed so the kids can be adopted!  Crazy stuff!

Her most convoluted thoughts about Ob/Gyns left me flabbergasted. Yes, she uses doctors, but only non believers should be Ob/Guns!

Women should not vote, should not teach men anything, the craziness just goes on!

[louannems]

Back to the Andersons, godly children never leave home until marriage, children are to be spanked until they leave home, her husband would never have an affair, and her children would never be gay, because, well, ungodly!

[Arwen Evenstar]

57 minutes ago, louannems said:

Back to the Andersons, godly children never leave home until marriage, children are to be spanked until they leave home, her husband would never have an affair, and her children would never be gay, because, well, ungodly!

The Anderson's are their own brand of lunacy.  It's a dark place to go. The Southern Poverty Law Center has identified their church as a hate group.  I don't  think the Duggars socialize with them. If you're too crazy for the Duggars, that's saying something.

[Sew Sumi]

I think it's the other way around. The Duggars are too "liberal" for Zsu. Yes, she's said that.

[Arwen Evenstar]

9 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think it's the other way around. The Duggars are too "liberal" for Zsu. Yes, she's said that.

I sort of meant to say that the Duggars are too liberal for their liking.

[GeeGolly]

16 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think it's the other way around. The Duggars are too "liberal" for Zsu. Yes, she's said that.

LMAO

[Nysha]

Wow, if the Duggars are too liberal for you...yikes! 

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, Nysha said:

Wow, if the Duggars are too liberal for you...yikes! 

That's what I'm saying! It must be hell to grow up in that house with those two loony toonies for parents. Hope one of those kids writes a tell all.

[Albanyguy]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:15 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

The Duggars are too "liberal" for Zsu. Yes, she's said that.

I think she was always envious of the Duggars and resentful of their fame. Like Jill R, she obviously wants to be a Fundy celebrity, too. But while Jill has always sucked up to the Duggars in hopes of riding their coattails, Zsu positioned herself as being much more devout, much more humble and much more deserving of praise than Jim Bob and Michelle. Then, when the shit hit the fan with Josh, she was positively gleeful. She cloaked her enjoyment of the situation with all the right words ("Judge not, lest ye be judged", etc.) but she was clearly beside herself with joy over their downfall.