Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Dejana]

I didn't grow up fundie by any stretch, but did hear the "unfermented grape juice" line of reasoning and in the church covenant, we had to pledge "to abstain from the sale and use of the intoxicating drink as a beverage" and the pastor would disdainfully remark that not saying that part of the covenant didn't mean that people could get out of following it. Then I don't know, he had a change of heart or got a new interpretation or something, because he later conceded that the Bible doesn't totally forbid alcohol consumption, but he personally did not drink as the leader of the church, because the less restrained in the congregation might see his "endorsement" of alcohol as an excuse to drink to excess.

 

One of the better arguments I've heard against the idea that the wine was really what modern day people would consider grape juice, is that reducing the wine to grape juice misses what made it a miracle. Anyone can turn grape into wine, but to turn water into wine was something special. Also, the praise about saving the best wine for last makes no sense if everyone was just drinking grape juice the whole time at all these super-long wedding feasts. Since it was wine, everyone would get drunk and the hosts hoped people were too sloshed to care about being served cheap booze after a while. To explain it to this crowd, it would be like being served home brewed sweet tea first, but after that ran out, getting the kind from the powder mix or Nestea from the can. You'd definitely notice the difference.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Dejana

[DangerousMinds]

Women's trousers still reveal the form and the cleave of the backside; you can't have the wimmins walking around inspiring such lust in righteous men! The same would be true of men's trousers, but men's thoughts about women are much more impure, making a woman in slacks far more scandalous. Also, probably because it would make "boyish" physical activities much easier and more practical for girls/women, and we can't have that!

And Jessa's tight skirts don't?

[Jynnan tonnix]

All that being said, I was at a function this evening at which the bartender was wearing a kilt. And not one of those full-on tartan affairs, but just a very plain workhorse of a kilt (something along these lines http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=work+kilts+for+men&qpvt=work+kilts+for+men&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=FDDE6F407D06A18E55A131B57EFC3B28055E57B2&selectedIndex=11 )...And it really was quite picturesque, I have to say :) I might have been just a wee bit defrauded...

[Almost 3000]

All that being said, I was at a function this evening at which the bartender was wearing a kilt. And not one of those full-on tartan affairs, but just a very plain workhorse of a kilt (something along these lines http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=work+kilts+for+men&qpvt=work+kilts+for+men&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=FDDE6F407D06A18E55A131B57EFC3B28055E57B2&selectedIndex=11 )...And it really was quite picturesque, I have to say :) I might have been just a wee bit defrauded...

I don't understand how you can be defrauded if it was a wee bit. (sorry, had to say it...)

[Micks Picks]

When I was a child I often heard the criticism that it was a scandal the way men who had been out dancing and drinking the night before were there at church on Sunday morning.  I always thought that was a good thing.  They were not falling down drunk the night before, and only danced (as far as I know) and were coherent enough to get to God's house the next day.  It seemed respectful to me.  But then we attended the Catholic church and that was considered a sin in itself.  Weird.

[Potato511]

I just read this piece from Recovering Grace and thought I would post it here...

It really shows how damage occurs in this environment to (even) the heterosexual males

(who are sometimes written off as simply recipients of the privileges of patriarchy, and

in whom we may fail to see the very real damage done)

(and that is *not* addressing overt physical/sexual abuse that would be contrary to the teachings in any case)

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/a-different-kind-of-sexual-abuse/

 

Warning: the site is still very religious (Christian)!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Potato511

[floridamom]

Potato511...all I can say is "WOW"! I wonder how the Duggars would respond to that article? Where are they on those things? As a mother of sons, it horrified me to read. All I can say is that is an abomination of your real, Godly parental responsibilities. How can grown up people fall for such stuff? I can't believe it...so sad. I pray for that guy..and hope that God truly helps him and those like him understand that He is a loving God, not a vengeful one as depicted in the Old Testamant...

[JennDear77]

Is circumcision not common practice with the Fundies or whatever the Duggars call themselves (I see people refer to them as Fundies here or josh & Anna as "fundie lite")? In all their sex talk, I don't think I've ever heard them discussing if they do or don't. I guess it's not modest to discuss the penis.

[msblossom]

Potato511,

Thank you for posting this article. It really articulated God's grace vs the Duggar's theology of works and Gothardism quite well. Such a huge difference between the two. I especially liked what the author wrote at the end of the article about lust being a heart issue and not a clothing issue. Thanks again!

[LazyToaster]

Wow, that was a sad and powerful story. I wonder how the writer relates to his father now. Really heartbreaking...

[Barb23]

Wow, that story was something. I wonder too what his relationship is with his dad or how it affected his brothers. How did they handle it?

After reading the first couple paragraphs, the same question comes to mind -why do adults fall for this? I can't believe after one or two of Gothards seminars, they are brainwashed to follow his teachings full force. Why do they think HIS way is THE way to live & raise a family esp. when this man never married or had children?

Is there a way to see these booklets (like the medical care one) he referenced in the article? Or do you have to join the cult & then pay for them?

[GEML]

The reality is that every one of us could fall for something if the right idea, delivered by the right person hit us at the right vulnerable moment. It's comforting to think that only THOSE kind of people fall for cults. But every study out shows how vulnerable we really are. Oh sure, we can see through Gothardism, but I bet in ten minutes I could put up pretty much a list of sacred cows pertaining to politics, foods, medical issues, scientific beliefs, etc, that would have people swearing up and down were true even though there isn't consensus in the field, and some if them have been harmful to ourselves and others. Humanity is brilliant about replacing one form of insanity with another, and few people are genuinely comfortable living in a world of moral relativity.

Here's a quick example - books are most often banned in the very most conservative areas AND the very most liberal. Because neither side can truly stand a questioning of it's ideas.

[Micks Picks]

The polarization of America is scary.   I was thought nuts for speaking about this issue at work, and of course all the "right" thinkers just didn't see it.  Now some are beginning to care.  But not as many as should care, do, and until more realize that we are Americans and in this together, and we can have thoughtful (key word) differences and still get along, will the situation begin to change.

[Fosca]

For those of you who are wondering why people are following the rules of a never-married man with no children when it comes to marriage and child-rearing, I give you the Catholic Church, which does the exact same thing and has for a very long time.

[floridamom]

As far as the Catholic Church clergy being unmarried, I offer this thought. At least catholic clergy, and many other clergymen/women are properly educated and trained in deep theology for many years and receive a highly regarded experience in the classroom. Mr. Gothard, however, has created "his very own" interpretations of scripture, lifestyle and family life. He has a stand alone business going and is attached to no other "real religious organization" that I can tell. The Catholic Church may formally preach no artificial birth control, but other natural methods of controlling conception is advised and they really don't want to know "what you're doing in your bedroom",, as that is between God and your own conscience. Mr Gothard dictates how a married couple should do EVERYTHING. TheCatholic church back in the 1930s even relaxed it's property church attire for women which included "two fingers from the collarbone, elbows covered and knees covered" FOR CHURCH ATTENDANCE. My point being is I don't believe that Mr. Gothard and the like have been trained and/or educated in deep spiritual/scriptural/religious institutions with any real credibility and history. His style came about in the 1970s or 1980s. The Catholic church was formed in the year 33AD and came directly from Jesus himself and St. Peter with an unbroken line of succession with 266 popes, yes, warts and all, as popes, etc are all human beings and fallible in worldly things.

Having said that, it is quite offensive of Michelle's statemtent that the pope isn't qualified or authorized to interpret scripture, but Mr. Gothard, she and Jim Bob ARE? Sorry, I respect all other faiths on this planet, but Michelle is just a Christian spiritual SNOB and God doesn't like that.

[GEML]

Not defending Gothard, but he has two degrees from one of the flagship schools in evangelicalism. There are plenty of crackpots out there with no education to speak of, but Gothard isn't one of them. He's an educated crackpot.

[Barb23]

GEML-good point about we all can be "lured" into doing things. I forgot all about this but my mom got hooked on Jim & Tammy Bakkers PTL Club back in the day. She watched their TV program every night & then I had to hear about it the next day. Her & my dad visited their park Heritage USA & loved it. (Funny because my dad wasn't a very religious person) They even bought one of the $1000 lifetime memberships but it was at the time the PTL walls were falling down & the ministry went belly up. They did get back some of their money back in a class action suit. Last year I found pictures on line of the abandoned park (think a new ministry has taken over part of it) & she replied it was a shame. I think she still thought he is a great person even tho what he did (sex scandal, using PTL money as hush money, imprisoned for fraud charges).

I don't want to start a discussion of PTL. I'm just using this as an example we all can be lured into things.

[msblossom]

Interesting, GEML and Barb23. I have an uncle who I consider to be a solid Christian and who has done a lot of sales, advertising and PR work for several high profile Christian companies. Anyway, back in the 80's he was hired by the Bakers to do advertising/PR for their theme park back when it first started. He's also one who bought into the timeshares and lost his shirt on that deal. So yeah, looking back on that I'm thinking what would have possessed an intelligent, educated and seemingly theologically solid guy to fall for that horse and pony show?

I also had a friend, who in the late 80's attended a Gothard Basic Life Principles seminar right out of high school. She was extremely enthusiastic about it and showed me this large vinyl navy blue three ring binder with all the "principles". I will say she wasn't too bright, more the excitable, and emotional type and was looking to reign herself in because she was a fairly undisciplined person and I suppose was looking for something radical. I don't think she stuck to it for more than 6 months. I remember thinking there was no way I wanted to participate. But for her, she was searching for something...lucky for her she doesn't have much stick-to-it-ive-ness.

[GEML]

Let's face it - almost all of us enjoy being part of something bigger than ourselves, that we think could give our lives more meaning and, well, PURPOSE than just the years that we live here on earth. Catch us at a vulnerable or impressionable moment, and it's not so much that we think we are being brainwashed as it is similar to falling in love. Same brain chemistry. And how many of us knows someone who "fell" for someone completely awful for them? Or left a great family and home for someone who just made them into some other person altogether because they were so in love?

These families are so of "in love" with Bill Gothard. If you think of it this way, it explains why they can give him their dearest things - their privacy, their money, control over them, and even, yes, their daughters. Being noticed and admired by their lover makes it all worthwhile.

Edited October 20, 2014 by GEML

[msblossom]

You make a good point, GEML. I think Gothardism appeals to the lonely/empty/vulnerable and to those who are in need of self discipline and see things in black and white.

I've always tended to be a bit rebellious and skeptical and question authority. I like my own autonomy -- not saying this has always been a good thing for me, but I believe it has served me well in that, theologically speaking, I tend to think through things and see where it lands in the bible, unfortunately the bible doesn't always cover everything -- but for the most part it's worked out well.

[TobyBelle]

I wasn't sure where to post this and I don't know if his has been talked about before. I saw the episode (forgot what it was entirely about) where the Duggars were having some big shindig at their home and had that author Sarah Mally (?) who wrote Before You Meet Prince Charming book. Has anyone ever read it? I looked her up and on some forum, it said she is 30+ and unmarried? My first reaction, was yeah, that's no surprise because Prince Charming doesn't exist (I'm saying this as a happily married woman), she'll be waiting forever. I'm wondering if the book is as extreme as I am imagining it. It makes me think of the ladies at church who go through guy after guy because they are finding the perfect spiritual leader who can lead them, and then they just get older and frustrated because they're still single. On the other hand, I had to laugh in the episode where they were asking the girls about dating (Was this David Waller and Priscilla's wedding episode?) and one of them said something about you think you found Mr. Right, but then you find out his first name is Always. I thought that sounded pretty sensible.

Anyway, just wanted to see if anyone knows about the book and author.

Edited October 21, 2014 by TobyBelle

[floridamom]

Yes, I remember that episode; she's that skinny lady who needs a good meal. I agree that Prince Charming does NOT exist despite Michelle's opinion of Jim Bob.So this author is a 30 year old "never held a boy's hand" woman, unmarried and still living at home? Sure, take advice from her...good choice. Those older Duggar girls in that interview, come across as superior snob virgins who either will "lose it immediately" like Jill did, or be smug like Jessa or will remain "maids in waiting" until they are in their 30s serving daddy and mama. How will they find a perfect male virgin who is in his 30s and has never held a "girl's" hand? Unrealistic and childish. They believe in fairy tale stories. These fundy marriages still remain to be seen what lies ahead for these inexperienced people finding themselves married with a house full of kids.

[Ilovemylabs]

Let's face it - almost all of us enjoy being part of something bigger than ourselves, that we think could give our lives more meaning and, well, PURPOSE than just the years that we live here on earth. Catch us at a vulnerable or impressionable moment, and it's not so much that we think we are being brainwashed as it is similar to falling in love. Same brain chemistry. And how many of us knows someone who "fell" for someone completely awful for them? Or left a great family and home for someone who just made them into some other person altogether because they were so in love?

These families are so of "in love" with Bill Gothard. If you think of it this way, it explains why they can give him their dearest things - their privacy, their money, control over them, and even, yes, their daughters. Being noticed and admired by their lover makes it all worthwhile.

The world is a chaotic place, even if you are safe and secure in a great family.  I think it's natural to seek out comfort and solace.  I think religion serves a wonderful purpose, to answer some questions that are unanserable to us.  In its best form it provides comfort and answers and reassurance.  That being said, if you are particularly vulnerable you might be enticed into a faith that provides 'all the answers'. Such a faith gives you strict structure in your life (like Gothardism).  In my opinion, religion does not give us EVERY answer.  And I personally believe that a strict lifestyle is not is what is most pleasing to God.  Being a loving person, and doing your best, having faith matter more.  So, in my opinion, it is not HOW you live (acccording to the law or strict rules), it is what is in your heart.  As a Lutheran I think we are saved by God's grace, not by our works. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Ilovemylabs

[GEML]

^^^^This is the difference between a religion and a cult. But even a healthy religion can become a cult in the hands of an unhealthy person. (Those of us who have been active in churches have probably run into some of these folks - the ones who just can't let it go.). Likewise healthy people are often drawn to something unhealthy at particular moments in their lives when they are vulnerable. And we are all vulnerable at certain moments throughout our lives. Not necessarily to religion, but to other ideas that go from guidelines into obsessions.

I haven't read WAITING FOR PRINCE CHARMING, and I'm kind of embarrassed about it because I do really try and keep up with any and all cult and Fundy reading! I'm going to look for a cheap copy and read it ASAP and I'll report back!

[truthtalk2014]

 I guess it's not modest to discuss the penis.

That makes me wonder…  Just what did MEchelle tell the boys a penis is called.  I'll bet she had some stupid sick sweet name.  

[PityFree]

I'd bet money that penises are called "The Little Countenance" in the Duggar household. 

[WTFFF]

Someone found this on Recovering Grace: worksheet for the sexually abused.

 

This is appalling.  And yes, it's Bill Gothard/ATI approved.  It's like that asshole was PLANNING what he was going to do to those girls. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by WTFFF

[ramble]

^^^^This is the difference between a religion and a cult. But even a healthy religion can become a cult in the hands of an unhealthy person. (Those of us who have been active in churches have probably run into some of these folks - the ones who just can't let it go.). Likewise healthy people are often drawn to something unhealthy at particular moments in their lives when they are vulnerable. And we are all vulnerable at certain moments throughout our lives. Not necessarily to religion, but to other ideas that go from guidelines into obsessions.

As someone who was raised in the church, though not completely strictly, I can attest to falling for something if the timing is right &/or well planned attacks on venerability are used. Mine was a single person who created a religion of his own, basically he became my god, & I knew better. It took a lot of therapy to realize he created what was, in effect, a cult of two. I read a truly stunning article a woman wrote about the similarity between cult leaders & relationships with psychopaths & it was like reading parts of my life. I deleted it when I decided I had to take a break from researching psychopathy because I became somewhat obsessed with the why of it all & there are some things that will always be unanswered.

However he, my personal satan, could, with little effort, lead a cult. He has the charisma & charm. People adore him to the point of adulation. He's just too lazy & still struggles to control his rage in intimate settings. If he ever gets that under control I have concerns about what he'll accomplish. Because not only do people love him he's brillant & can learn things stunningly fast. But, deep breath, that can not concern me now because I'm free.

I still am a believer, as in a Christian, but this man did damage. It's taken years & I'm still not totally healed. He knew more Bible verses regarding woman than I knew existed. And he could quote whole sections that supported whatever agenda he wanted to push. It's truly sad how he preverted scripture & twisted it to use as he saw fit. Like I said, I knew better, but by the time he was doing it I was already all in.

I made this choice as an adult though & cut off family & friends to do so. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to break free if you're raised in a cult & your parents teach it as the only way. It breaks my heart. God is full of mercy & grace. That is worth teaching!

I apologize. I think I got on a soap box. It is a hot button issue for me. My therapist helped me wit some mild deprogramming because I had a hard time letting go of some beliefs that my personal satan had pounded into me. These kids, the Gothard ones, will need serious help. It makes me so sad.

[homeperm]

Women's trousers still reveal the form and the cleave of the backside; you can't have the wimmins walking around inspiring such lust in righteous men! The same would be true of men's trousers, but men's thoughts about women are much more impure, making a woman in slacks far more scandalous. Also, probably because it would make "boyish" physical activities much easier and more practical for girls/women, and we can't have that!

 

And Jessa's tight skirts don't?

 

 

I am constantly amazed by the arbitrary dress code rules. Jessa wears tight skirts and I've observed far more of JD's anatomy than I ever wanted to because of the jeans he wears. All of their rules just feel pulled out of thin air to me. Have they never heard of a foot fetish? And back to Jessa's skirts, the jeans I wear day to day are far less revealing than her skirts. I also think about what Jesus wore. Basically a dress. No? And his hair was long, by some accounts and he had facial hair. Why don't the Duggar men follow his example?

[GEML]

The good thing for kids coming out of this movement is it won't be as hard to find help and support as it once was, because of the internet. There are websites that exist to show people that they aren't alone and other people have stories just like they do. I have a few close friends who came out of old order Amish homes decades ago, and they talk about the utter isolation they felt - that there was literally no one in the world like them. The internet really does help to minimize that.

The downside of that is that the isolation these children are raised in as children will make their ability to break out all the harder. A lack of education was easier to overcome 25 years ago than it is today.

But I SOOOO appreciate Ramble sharing her story, because one of the big things you hear with any Duggar discussion is "How do people get caught up in something like this?" And the answer is "the way people usually do - they are looking for something in their lives and someone says they can meet that need." It really can be that simple. We all may be watching Dereck being hooked into it right in front of us. It's easy to make the assumption that because he comes from a fairly liberal (small l) home, has an education, a good job and is 25, he won't be susceptible to the stuff that seems so clear to all of us. But he obviously wanted something, as he sought JB out. And he's in love with Jill. We will see what happens. But the odds aren't in his favor, statistically.

[PityFree]

I have heard some things about Gothard wanting women to be slim. I tried to search for something about that but all I found was an index of ATI Wisdom Booklets. In Book 6, there was a chapter for math that listed 'ideal weight and caloric intake' and 'multiplication' lessons (?). Do they think it is sinful to be overweight?

 

Anyone know more about ATI/IBPL nutrition/health rules? I've always wondered how the Duggards stay slim eating the junk they do. Of course, I'm sure there are rarely second helpings with 20 people splitting meals. It would be a challenge to overeat in their home. 

[Missy Vixen]

Yes, what would have been wrong for Jill and Derick to continue to communicate while he was in Nepal and meet when he returned in a mere two months? The Duggars do not believe in ANY friendships at all between the opposite sex. So, if Derick and Jill wanted to "get to know each other", even at such a physical distance, he would have to put his cards on the table and already decide if he wanted to court, which ='s marriage. There really is no time to "get to know you" in their world. It baffles the mind to try to figure out who you want to marry before you know that person.. just the upside down world they live in. I wonder when Jill will grow up or if she ever will? It would be sad to see her as a 30 year old woman, giggling like a 15 year old who has produced children. The household duties will not mature her, for she has been doing those things since childhood yet remained immature while doing those things... Derick, I think is a shy guy who might turn out to be a little dull for Jill's giggly-childlike ways. It remains to be seen. Their "religion" is mostly invented by themselves...and that man. It one day will implode on them because it can't work for everyone every time.

Here's the dirty little secret about Gothardism, at least in my experience. The divorce rate among alumni of the Bible college I attended (a Gothard stronghold, BTW) is higher than the national average. It's hard to imagine how anyone can believe young people who have not been encouraged to live on their own, learn how to budget or attain a marketable skill besides "music ministry", or get to know their future spouse in more than a surface way can make functional marriages. It's hard for me to imagine what Jill and Derick talk about in the first place. He's a college graduate. She has a GED, but we all know that the School of the Dining Room Table hasn't equipped her for the outside world. Derick may be shy and somewhat awkward, but he managed to make friends and land a good job. He's lived on his own outside of the US. Jill has been out of the country, but any attempt to learn about the culture or even see some of the greatest sites the world has to offer wasn't encouraged. She also wasn't allowed to have anything but surface conversations with him before they got married. It is astounding to me that Jill thought it was also a great idea to get pregnant two weeks after the wedding, too -- what's the fire drill?

 

Jill may also think that working the baby talk thing has gotten her mother through 30 years of marriage to a guy most women would run to get away from, so it's fine. I wonder if we'll find out sometime in the future that Derick isn't so nuts about it.

 

It is inevitable that there will be at least one divorce among the 19 kids. I also wonder what the Duggars are going to offer some poor woman to marry the unpleasant and unattractive JD.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Missy Vixen

[Tahitigirl]

Delurking to share my experience with Gothard. During my high school years (mid 1970s) his seminar was the greatest thing among evangelicals. At that time it was called Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts. People in my church (which was fairly conservative) were so excited when he came to our city. The downtown convention center was rented out and people came from all over the metropolitan area every evening, Mon-Fri and all day Saturday. (Attendance was probably around 1500-2000.) My entire youth group and our parents went plus quite a few others from church. We got this huge red 3-ring binder that we added sections to every evening, a different subject each night. All I really remember is that I thought his ideas were extreme and was hoping my parents weren't taking too much stock in what he was saying!

After the week-long seminar, I don't remember anything else being said about the conference or its content. For all I know the parents got together and decided it was hogwash. As far as our lives, and our church, was concerned, it was pretty much in one ear and out the other. And knowing what I know now, I'm sure thankful!

As for me, my parents always trusted my judgement and relationships. I moved out on my own at age 20, kept my faith, had normal dating relationships, married at 26 with my morals intact. While I respect the Duggar's concern about dating, I cannot imagine marrying someone with our only previous physical contact being a side hug and holding hands. Furthermore, the inability to have a private conversation of any kind is appalling. There are so many important things to discuss with your potential life partner, things that are personal and private. And the straw that broke the camel's back for me was learning that the parents did the premarital counseling. For lack of better term, it almost seems like emotional incest to be so overly involved with your children's lives.

I'm so glad that red binder got thrown away!

[msblossom]

I made this choice as an adult though & cut off family & friends to do so. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to break free if you're raised in a cult & your parents teach it as the only way. It breaks my heart. God is full of mercy & grace. That is worth teaching! I apologize. I think I got on a soap box. It is a hot button issue for me. My therapist helped me wit some mild deprogramming These kids, the Gothard ones, will need serious help. It makes me so sad.

Ramble, no need to apologize, I'm so glad you shared your experience. It sounds like you've been through a lot and I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm glad you're in the process of being set free.

I'm with you, I'm sad for those who are raised in Gothardism. I do see pieces of hope that some of the Duggars, as they move away from the day to day influence of their parents, will begin to see the mercy and grace of God. Not saying this will be the case with all of them or that it won't take time. I see changes in Josh and Anna and I hope their stay in DC will be long because it's been good for them.

Edited October 23, 2014 by msblossom

[Micks Picks]

I personally don't know very many kids or teens who are being raised with any standards at all.  It's amazing that some turn out decently despite this.  But most are in for a hard life.  Then there are some kids, young adults, who look for a cause greater than themselves.  If they give up or reject global warming, carbon footprints, and inclusiveness at all costs, they are easy prey for fundamentalist ideals.  Maybe they turn to Gothard, but more likely now they mess around with Islam and can become jihadis.  If they were originally from a reasonable Islamic sect or from nominal Christians, the temptation is certainly there.  It new, romanticized, idealistic, all that those their age long for.  And they kill people.

[Ilovemylabs]

There was a discussion under the Jill and Derrick topic about what the Bible says about women who are having their periods.  When I was in India 35 years ago visiting Indian friends, one of the women was seated on a special mat as we ate dinner (we sat on the floor to eat).  She was slightly apart from the rest of us.  I was told this was because she had her period!  And my friends were college educated people.  The husband was a teacher with me in Malaysia.  I do not know if this is still practiced today.  But culturally, I guess women with their period are treated differently around the world.

[floridamom]

If the Gothard method has a thing about women being slim, how has Michelle gotten around that all those years that she was a chubbo? It is only recently that she has begun to exercise and lose weight. When a woman is pregnant some of every year, how can she maintain her weight? Anna sure has added some poundage to her frame and she hasn't been "expecting" for what,, 16 months now? Get out the WW booklet, Mrs. Anna...as you're sinning not being 100 lbs by now. Doesn't add up, yet again. These people do what they want when they want...

[GEML]

In Gothard world, it's thinness in women is only most important if the husband wants to degrade his wife with it. If he's fine with her body, I don't think they are micromanaged to that degree.

[mimionthebeach]

In Gothard world, it's thinness in women is only most important if the husband wants to degrade his wife with it. If he's fine with her body, I don't think they are micromanaged to that degree.

How benevolent.

[BradandJanet]

Without going into details, I will affirm the destructiveness of mind-controlling groups. I never even considered joining the particular evangelical group that butted into my life, but it still managed to create significant personal damage. I don't blame the members entirely--they were not thinking freely--but even years later, I don't have good feelings about them either.

 

Whenever I see people like the Duggar children, I know that whether they stay or leave the group, they will always pay a price.

[cmr2014]

 

Whenever I see people like the Duggar children, I know that whether they stay or leave the group, they will always pay a price.

 

That's really true. People (including me) comment a lot about hoping that the Duggar kids break free -- and I hope they do -- but there is a real price to pay.

 

Jana (or Josiah, or whoever), won't just leave the cult, move to New York, and live a happy life. There are blogs all over the internet (many are referenced on this site) written by people who have left these cults. It's scary and confusing.

 

Many go through period of fear because they have been taught since birth that what they are doing will send them to hell. They are estranged from their families and the few "friends" they might have been allowed. They have no education and no skills to find work, and have no experience with the idea of a job (obviously the Duggars have never seen Mom or Dad get up and go to work).

 

As a fellow human being, I want those kids to have the freedom to make their own choices (and their own mistakes), but they are all in for a rough ride either way.

 

 

 

[jilliannatalia]

If a person wanted to join up with the Gothardites, how would he or she go about doing so? I have no intention of becoming a follower of Gothard. I'm merely curious as to how one would go about it if one so desired. Is it like Scientology in that it costs big $$$?

[Absolom]

It costs, but not as much as $cientology.  I believe step one is taking Gothard's Basic Course, which is now conveniently available online.

[Rhondinella]

I'm just wondering what the rationale is for women not being allowed to wear pants. It strikes me that women only wearing skirts (especially in a male dominated cult) would just make for easier access sexually. That in itself could be construed as being provocative, couldn't it?

 

 

I'm certainly no expert on clothing history, but I've always assumed that one reason women worse skirts and men did not was precisely BECAUSE it made for easier sexual access.  Seems to make sense anyway.

 

I have heard some things about Gothard wanting women to be slim. I tried to search for something about that but all I found was an index of ATI Wisdom Booklets. In Book 6, there was a chapter for math that listed 'ideal weight and caloric intake' and 'multiplication' lessons (?). Do they think it is sinful to be overweight?

 

 

I don't know whether they think that or not.  But I do know this idea is not totally foreign to very conservative evangelicals.  I had a friend, a pastor's daughter, 25 years ago who went to Oral Roberts University in Tulsa.  And I remember when she came home to visit she told us that they did a body fat analysis and weighed them (the girls anyway, not sure about the guys) and if they didn't meet the requirements (whatever they were) they had to take special health and exercise classes, which she said were colloquially referred to on campus as "fat class."  Not sure if they made them weigh in periodically after that, but I think so.  

 

And this girl, trust me, was FAAAARR from fat.  She was a perfectly acceptable size (I'd guess a size 10 or less), slender and attractive.  No one would have called her fat, but apparently she didn't pass their test.  Now I should say I don't know if ORU still does this (I would guess not) but this is just an illustration of the fact that there have certainly been controlling groups and people in evangelicalism obsessed with women being slim.

[NausetGirl]

GEML wrote "...serving in the military is against the Duggars religion. That should be respected just as we respect it in religions such as Quakers, Amish and Mennonites and Brethren. You can certainly belong to any of those groups and love your country, and while there a parts of the Duggars religion I personally find troubling, they are entitled, in my opinion, to any respect on subjects like this that I would give to any other religion..."

 

My reply is this: I can tolerate the fact that the Duggars' religion is against serving in the military.  Everyone is entitled to believe as they choose.  But I honestly can't respect it. If all Americans believed as they do in 1940, we could very well be speaking German or Japanese in this country now. And I really don't get the whole "Alert Academy" deal then either. Apparently, Gothard types are into military-style training and preparation, but only when it benefits THEM. Not when their work would benefit people of all beliefs, as when US military members are deployed to West Africa in aid of the Ebola situation. Or participated in the Berlin Airlift. I wonder what Jesus would think about that? If they claim their objections to military service are that they don't wish to participate in war, there is a lot that our service members do that is NOT war-like. During WWII, many conscientious objectors found ways to be useful in the war effort without being in combat. The more I learn about it, the more incredibly selfish the Duggars' system of beliefs sounds.  It's all about them, and people who think like they do. Other people are outsiders, to be suspicious of or to be outright battled.  It's uneducated, second-century thinking.

Edited October 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[truthtalk2014]

 

 

I don't know whether they think that or not.  But I do know this idea is not totally foreign to very conservative evangelicals.  I had a friend, a pastor's daughter, 25 years ago who went to Oral Roberts University in Tulsa.  And I remember when she came home to visit she told us that they did a body fat analysis and weighed them (the girls anyway, not sure about the guys) and if they didn't meet the requirements (whatever they were) they had to take special health and exercise classes, which she said were colloquially referred to on campus as "fat class."  Not sure if they made them weigh in periodically after that, but I think so.  

 

This is true.  I went there for one year- the same year he asked for so many millions of dollars or God would take him home.  He got it BTW.  I am so happy I gave that crap up and went to a state school, partied and never looked back. 

 

They did indeed make us go through a horrible ordeal when we were freshmen.  We had to have our body fat taken, weight, etc.  If your body fat was over a certain amount, you had to be monitored.  You had to also be able to swim and run 3 miles in a certain time period every semester or year (can't remember which one at this point).   Seems so crazy now.  

 

It makes me think of Jana and the family taking her to weight watchers when she was a teen.  I can see that completely creating an eating disorder with the complete need to be thin.  With all the girls, honestly just with normal statistics, at least one or two has to have an eating disorder. 

[Rhondinella]

Thanks for that info truthtalk!  I've always wanted to know more about it.

[GEML]

Quaker men often served as first responders and fire fighters, putting their own lives on the line during the wars in which they couldn't fight. Unless you believe that it is NEVER appropriate for a religious group to refuse to serve in the military forces, I honestly don't see how you can hold it against one group over another.

[jcbrown]

Serving in the military is against the Duggars religion. That should be respected just as we respect it in religions such as Quakers, Amish and Mennonites and Brethren.

(moving this from the Benessa thread where it struck me as off topic)

 

I respectfully disagree here. My disagreement is based partially on the fact that the Duggars are evangelical and the other examples cited are not. To me, attempting to convert others (however ineptly--remember Boob in Scotland) and having such a superior attitude causes me not to respect the Duggars' made-up religion. Religions with more of a history of compassion and service earn respect from me; the Duggar's all-about-how-great-we-are-and-how-awful-everyone-else is beliefs do not warrant similar respect. Their expression of their beliefs strikes me as performative (look at how modest we are! look!) rather than genuine.

[GEML]

Wow. I don't like a lot of things about what the Duggars do and believe, but I don't go around calling any religion "made up" because once you start down that path, you start sliding downhill awfully fast. After all, the idea that a man was born from a virgin, or there are virgins to have sec with in heaven, or a man found golden plates in the ground - religion in general doesn't exactly start out on solid factual basis, which is part of the reason we make such allowances for it. But that's me.