Gimme That Old Time Religion

[charmed1]

John Piper probably got pulled over by a female police officer once and won't shut up about it.

[Churchhoney]

Interesting Libby Anne piece on the many faces of Quiverfull. She says that not everybody who is in line with the Quiverfull idea rejects birth control entirely.

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/09/a-quiverfull-of-definitions.html

[Churchhoney]

I really do not get the covenant marriage.  (Well, I totally understand it was a lobbying thing- but I don't understand why any religious person would think it was necessary.)

 

I was married in the Catholic church.  My marriage was a sacrament. If we divorce (for non-biblical reasons) it is a sin. Who cares that the state says it is okay? God (well assuming you're into that thing) says it isn't.

 

I don't need the state to set up guidelines to make it harder for us to divorce.  GOD already made those guidelines for us.

 

Probably the same reason that people need to take accountability partners to the Piggly Wiggly? They seem to be fixated on the idea that nobody can be trusted, no matter what, so to be sure sure sure sure sure that no one will sin, you have to hedge everybody about with all sorts of formal cumbersome legal-and-otherwise barbed wire.

 

And also so that they can say they're better than everybody else because they have this super-speshul bulletproof form of marriage. Because they are super speshul and their marriages are bulletproof. (But they also can't be trusted.)

 

They really make me tired.

[mbutterfly]

I really do not get the covenant marriage.  (Well, I totally understand it was a lobbying thing- but I don't understand why any religious person would think it was necessary.)

 

I was married in the Catholic church.  My marriage was a sacrament. If we divorce (for non-biblical reasons) it is a sin. Who cares that the state says it is okay? God (well assuming you're into that thing) says it isn't.

 

I don't need the state to set up guidelines to make it harder for us to divorce.  GOD already made those guidelines for us.

Yes, I don't get it either. If you are of a faith that does not allow divorce (or remarriage), then you are free to follow the tenets of your faith. Since it is optional, the "heathens" won't do covenant marriage so it isn't as if it could be argued it has a positive impact on the sanctity of marriage. 

[zenme]

I was raised Catholic, but did not marry in the Church.  I married my husband at the Justice of the Peace's office 25 years ago.  It's always annoyed me that I've had friends and family--Catholic and other denominations, tell me that I SHOULD  be married in the Church.  I had a THRICE wedded friend have the nerve to tell me that a few months ago.  It's so insulting to me, as though I take my marriage less seriously than others who married in a church.  Humph! (rant over)

[Julia]

There are two schools of thought about this, or at least, there were when Huckabee was using the issue to get national attention. One is that he felt that it's important that people have to think about taking marriage more seriously and help stabilize society (although his first proposal, which got shot down with extreme prejudice, was that all AR marriages be covenant). 

 

The other is that by blurring the lines between secular marriage (which while every bit as valid as the reasons people have for going in to one is to a great extent a legal matter related to property and taxes and inheritance which many religions don't recognize as valid), and religious marriage (religious expression), some four-times-married hypothetical county clerk can ignore the oath they swore to do their job and refuse to hand out marriage licenses in an election year.

[Guest]

A few months ago, a member of the Duggar family's "Home Church" commented on the Pickles and Hairspray Facebook page that the Duggars had (at least temporarily) disbanded their Home Church services for the remainder of the summer since so many of the families who usually attend were busy traveling.

 

In the Jill/Derick thread, there is a photo of the whole Duggar family posing on stage after Jill/Der were officially commissioned as missionaries by Cross Church yesterday. Does anyone know if the family just made a special appearance for the occasion or if the family has started to (albeit temporarily) attend services at Cross Church every Sunday?

Edited September 8, 2015 by Guest

[GeeGolly]

A few months ago, a member of the Duggar family's "Home Church" commented on the Pickles and Hairspray Facebook page that the Duggars had (at least temporarily) disbanded their Home Church services for the remainder of the summer since so many of the families who usually attend were busy traveling.

 

In the Jill/Derick thread, there is a photo of the whole Duggar family posing on stage after Jill/Der were officially commissioned as missionaries by Cross Church yesterday. Does anyone know if the family just made a special appearance for the occasion or if the family has started to (albeit temporarily) attend services at Cross Church every Sunday?

I think that would be doubtful. The Cross Church uses music during their services, members dress in regular clothing; shorts, tank-top etc, so I am thinking the Duggars would not want their impressionable youngins exposed to that.

[Absolom]

I expect that families traveling was a convenient excuse and that attendance at the church of Duggar dropped off due to the first Josh scandal.  I'm sure it would have closed after the latest scandal.

[Ripley68]

What happens to a wife if the husband divorces her, especially if its no fault of hers? I assume that it's still her fault according to them. What if he deserts her?

[DangerousMinds]

Tank tops and shorts to church?

[MonicaM]

What happens to a wife if the husband divorces her, especially if its no fault of hers? I assume that it's still her fault according to them. What if he deserts her?

My guess is that she can never remarry and must spend the rest of her life contemplating her shortcomings and failures that lead her husband to leave.  Of course if he ever does come back, even just for an afternoon, she must make herself, uh, available to meet his needs, since she's technically still his wife.  

 

My speculation is only half serious, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were accurate.

[Micks Picks]

No wonder one hears of the cases where the woman shoots the pastor husband because she's tires of walking in hooker heels and clothing at home.  

[kokapetl]

No wonder one hears of the cases where the woman shoots the pastor husband because she's tires of walking in hooker heels and clothing at home.

Stuff like that actually happened?

[Catlyn]

No wonder one hears of the cases where the woman shoots the pastor husband because she's tires of walking in hooker heels and clothing at home.

 

Stuff like that actually happened?

 

Mary Winkler Case. You can read the wiki version here.

[Tabbygirl521]

No wonder one hears of the cases where the woman shoots the pastor husband because she's tires of walking in hooker heels and clothing at home.

Oh, yeah! Mary Winkler, right?? I know lots of people didn't believe her, but I kind of did.

I wonder if JB likes Michelle to dress up in her old cheerleader outfit?

[Lemur]

I wonder if JB likes Michelle to dress up in her old cheerleader outfit?

 

Nope, not even gonna contemplate wandering down that long, twisted alley of thought.  Nah-ugh.  Not happening.  

[JoanArc]

Nope, not even gonna contemplate wandering down that long, twisted alley of thought.  Nah-ugh.  Not happening.  

Last one...I swear

 

[Guest]

I know divorce is a big no-no in Gothard circles, but what do they believe about marrying widowers? Would, for example Jana, be allowed to marry a widower?

[questionfear]

Today was Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, and something in services really struck me, especially as far as why I have such a hard time understanding the Duggars/fundie Christianity.

I'm paraphrasing, but this is what the anecdote was:

When Moses found himself trapped between the Egyptians and the Red Sea, he prayed to God to help the Israelites. God responded "You're trapped between two threats and you stopped to pray? Take action!"

Then we (as a congregation) said something like "Grant us the wisdom to know when to pray and when to act"

And that's why I struggle to understand fundies. In a nutshell, figuring out when to pray and when to act is what sums up the general philosophy of Judaism and prayer. We see that prayer is nice, but we need to take actions as well, and God will help us with our actions, not take those actions for us. It seems like that's the polar opposite of how the Duggars and people like them think-they don't act, but think prayer counts instead.

Edited September 15, 2015 by questionfear

[cmr2014]

Today was Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, and something in services really struck me, especially as far as why I have such a hard time understanding the Duggars/fundie Christianity.

I'm paraphrasing, but this is what the anecdote was:

When Moses found himself trapped between the Egyptians and the Red Sea, he prayed to God to help the Israelites. God responded "You're trapped between two threats and you stopped to pray? Take action!"

Then we (as a congregation) said something like "Grant us the wisdom to know when to pray and when to act"

And that's why I struggle to understand fundies. In a nutshell, figuring out when to pray and when to act is what sums up the general philosophy of Judaism and prayer. We see that prayer is nice, but we need to take actions as well, and God will help us with our actions, not take those actions for us. It seems like that's the polar opposite of how the Duggars and people like them think-they don't act, but think prayer counts instead.

 

Exactly.

 

I was thinking about something similar recently -- the fundie loathing of Harry Potter because it contains (gasp!) magic. Yet, as described by JB and J'chelle, their religion is nothing more than magical thinking. No one needs to do anything, in fact, no one should do anything -- except pray. God will take care of everything if you just pray hard enough -- doing something implies that you don't trust God enough to do it for you.

 

As lazy as the Duggars are, it's a wonder that they get out of bed at all. 

[Churchhoney]

Today was Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, and something in services really struck me, especially as far as why I have such a hard time understanding the Duggars/fundie Christianity.

I'm paraphrasing, but this is what the anecdote was:

When Moses found himself trapped between the Egyptians and the Red Sea, he prayed to God to help the Israelites. God responded "You're trapped between two threats and you stopped to pray? Take action!"

Then we (as a congregation) said something like "Grant us the wisdom to know when to pray and when to act"

And that's why I struggle to understand fundies. In a nutshell, figuring out when to pray and when to act is what sums up the general philosophy of Judaism and prayer. We see that prayer is nice, but we need to take actions as well, and God will help us with our actions, not take those actions for us. It seems like that's the polar opposite of how the Duggars and people like them think-they don't act, but think prayer counts instead.

 

Well, this is why you're going to hell with all the other non fundies. Sorry. When God created people, his plan was for them all to be helpless ninnies who can't even choose a frigging toothbrush without begging him to choose for them. You see, God has an ego problem. Kinda like his very favorite son, Jim Bob.

 

Remember that famous verse: "Woe to all ye who take seriously the reason, the imagination and the muscles, seeing them even as faculties meant to be used to conduct your lives. Yea, I say verily the Lord our God the Egomaniac created them as eye-traps, to confound the unrighteous and tempt them into consulting these puny fabrications created by Egomaniac as tests for the unrighteous and unwary who would be led astray by these false idols. Rather, I say unto you brethren, thou must kneel down in the aisle of the CVS and call upon the Lord your God for full guidance in the making of all pharmacy and non-pharmacy drugstore purchases."

Edited September 15, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Julia]

Exactly.

 

I was thinking about something similar recently -- the fundie loathing of Harry Potter because it contains (gasp!) magic. Yet, as described by JB and J'chelle, their religion is nothing more than magical thinking. No one needs to do anything, in fact, no one should do anything -- except pray. God will take care of everything if you just pray hard enough -- doing something implies that you don't trust God enough to do it for you.

 

The thing is, though, they wouldn't be taking the bus to political rallies or taping robocalls or blowing all their worldly goods running for office or forming lobbying groups if they actually believed that. I think there's a definite subset of issues they choose to pray over instead, and those would be the issues - their childrens' futures, Josh's little problem, having no place to live after they blew all their worldly goods running for office - they either don't care too much about or aren't willing to work to fix.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Julia

[Satchels of gold]

Or as the old Russian proverb states "pray to God but continue to row ashore"

[questionfear]

Or as the old Russian proverb states "pray to God but continue to row ashore"

Lol. Like the joke about the guy on a roof during a flood, who turns down a car, a boat, and a helicopter who all want to save him because "God will save him". Then he drowns, and when he gets to heaven he asks God why his prayers didn't work, and God says "I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter!"

[Tabbygirl521]

Lol. Like the joke about the guy on a roof during a flood, who turns down a car, a boat, and a helicopter who all want to save him because "God will save him". Then he drowns, and when he gets to heaven he asks God why his prayers didn't work, and God says "I sent a car, a boat and a helicopter!"

Yes yes yes! I have always loved this. Open your eyes and use your damn brain.

I believe there is plenty of value in prayer, meditation, etc. but as nice as it would be for God to wave a magic wand now and then, I wouldn't count on it. Sometimes things DO seem to happen at just the right time for no apparent reason*. But what about when you pray your head off and a problem remains? Is that God's way of telling you to F off? I feel like the Duggars et al. set themselves up for more self-loathing and doubt when prayer doesn't "work."

* Last year I was dx with early-stage breast cancer. Very, very treatable and all is well now and expected to remain so. But it did involve a mastectomy and chemo. It all went well and my only real side effect was cumulative fatigue. I kept up with my full-time job (I worked from home, luckily) except fir three weeks post-surgery. Even was able to take my laptop along to work during chemo infusions. But eventually I was so bushed that I felt some despair. Wished I could quit my job - which I liked - and just REST. I was at my wits' end.

And lo and behold, suddenly my job, with a corporate behemoth you would all recognize, was outsourced and I was put on a salary continuance program with full benefits. I worked there a long time, so I have a nice long continuance. When I told my oncologist, she said, "GOOD! Do not even think about looking for a job for at least three months. Just REST."

There's more. Shortly after this, my mom was dx with a terminal illness and immediately referred to hospice. I will always be so thankful that I was available to be with Mom during that time. If I had still been employed, I would not have been able to function. I had been at the end of my rope. Instead, my mom, sister, and I were together. It was a wonderful thing during a most terrible time.

It felt quite a bit like an answer to a prayer. A bit magical. I don't know.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[Churchhoney]

ATI is leaving Illinois to consolidate operations in Big Sandy.

 

Looks like shrinkage to me.

 

"The decision has been made. Last week it was officially announced that IBLP will be relocating its headquarters from Chicago to Big Sandy, Texas. The trends over the last 15 years have shown that the ministry has more properties than it currently needs, and after much prayer and consideration it was decided that it would be a financially strategic move to consolidate with the ALERT campus down in Texas. While not unexpected, the move will still be quite a change for all of us."

 

http://staddonfamily.com/2015/09/14/texas-ho/

 

Gee, I wonder what God is trying to tell them? Cause I'd call this a darned good sign.

[GeeGolly]

ATI is leaving Illinois to consolidate operations in Big Sandy.

 

Looks like shrinkage to me.

 

"The decision has been made. Last week it was officially announced that IBLP will be relocating its headquarters from Chicago to Big Sandy, Texas. The trends over the last 15 years have shown that the ministry has more properties than it currently needs, and after much prayer and consideration it was decided that it would be a financially strategic move to consolidate with the ALERT campus down in Texas. While not unexpected, the move will still be quite a change for all of us."

 

http://staddonfamily.com/2015/09/14/texas-ho/

 

Gee, I wonder what God is trying to tell them? Cause I'd call this a darned good sign.

So will Priss & David and Michael & Brandon be moving too?

[Churchhoney]

So will Priss & David and Michael & Brandon be moving too?

 

Moving or downsized, I'd guess, right? And I guess I'd assume moving would be the first option. .... But the downsized may not be far behind ....According to that Talking Points Memo article from last week, the take has dropped off very very steeply. And no reason to figure it won't continue to drop, I would think. Nice to have actual evidence that you really can't sustain these cults for all that long.

 

A certain amount of sexual abuse by two top leaders, your brother scamming cult members for money, and several decades of people's real-world experience of the whole thing not working very well, and you're pretty much done for. I like a logical outcome!

Edited September 17, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Guest]

I think consolidation is code for "Ah! Our empire is crumbling!"

[riverblue22]

Even if they weren't downsizing they are admitting that their influence is regionally limited.  Most of their remaining members are probably in nearby states, and before long, Illinois will have completely forgotten them.

[kokapetl]

Sounds like there's no need or chance of appealing to Midwestern, college educated, suburban, middle class types these days, so they're doubling down on the rural southern militia aspect. They're repositioning themselves.

[ChiCricket]

I've heard they're located in Oakbrook (here in Illinois.)

If that's true, that is very pricey real estate. So either the rent is getting too be too high to handle now, or they own the property, and need to sell because they need the money.

[kokapetl]

Demographics probably changed significantly since 1969.

[Micks Picks]

I'd love to have an idea of the real financials.  God gave them the property in 1969, and they charge a ton IMO for their on line learning, ALERT, JTTH, everything.  And most of those followers can't have much money with so many kids and so many limits as to the type of work they can do.  So how much has come directly to Gothard and what happens to the rest of the money?   Sounds like LRon Hubbard without the showbiz connections.  Where is the IBLP money?

[kokapetl]

I can see how a cult could be lucrative, but a cult that promotes no debt and too many kids has it's work cut out for it.

[Churchhoney]

Sounds like LRon Hubbard without the showbiz connections.

 

I think it pretty much is L.Ron Hubbard without the showbiz connections. Both cults were set up -- and, I have to say, pretty cleverly so -- to enrich the guys that started them (and their families) by presenting systems that appealed to many people because they seemed to be fairly clear and simple sets of rules that would guarantee a great life. But both have major flaws that limit the length of their successful tenures, and the flaws are kind of the opposite of each other, I think.

 

With Hubbard, a problem for long-term continuation is that Scientology has actively discouraged members from having many kids or any kids and limits parents' relationships with their kids. But that meant that pretty quickly it stopped getting a big membership boost from people born into the group. And it's harder to bring in people from outside than it is to bring up brainwashed children. Then Gothard went the opposite way -- encouraging followers to have a million kids. And that increased the IBLP membership numbers quite well for a while, but it also meant that most members didn't have much money, so few could effectively perform the cult-sustaining function of pouring in cash.

 

As I've said before, though, I'm not convinced that Bill and Ron didn't realize these things would happen but didn't care because their schemes would run long enough to ensure they had plenty of cash and adulation during their lifetimes. I think it's possible that neither one actually believed in the system he invented and that both conceived of them solely as clever financial scams that could set them, personally, up for life. I suppose that's probably too cynical. But I do think it's possible. .... Or, alternatively, they're both just nuts.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Vaysh]

As I've said before, though, I'm not convinced that Bill and Ron didn't realize these things would happen but didn't care because their schemes would run long enough to ensure they had plenty of cash and adulation during their lifetimes. I think it's possible that neither one actually believed in the system he invented and that both conceived of them solely as clever financial scams that could set them, personally, up for life. I suppose that's probably too cynical. But I do think it's possible. .... Or, alternatively, they're both just nuts.

 

I honestly don't think Hubbard believed a word of the Scientology ideology himself. I doubt any of the original higher-ups did either. I can see them (and maybe Hubbard himself) buying into the self-help aspect of it, but aliens? Evil overlords from outer space? I know Christianity has it's own peculiarities but I think time and tradition makes those easier to swallow for many people (and most Christians aren't fundamentalists who see the all the stories in the Bible as literal truth) but there's a reason Scientology was so secretive about their "holy" texts (aside from wanting to fleece its flock for all its worth). And I believe that's because you have to be pretty darned brainwashed in order to believe that all of humanity's problems are are rooted in that tragic intergalactic genocide 75 million years ago when above mentioned evil overlord Xenu packed billions of space aliens into volcanoes and blew them up, hence allowing the ghosts of those sad little dead aliens to stick to the rest of us like superglue and cause us spiritual harm. Oh, and that when we die we go to a space station on Venus where Venusians lie to us about our thetan-ness and then dump our souls into the Pacific.

 

As for Gothard, I think he probably believed his own schtick, at least at first. Who knows to what extent and for how long though. Since psychology is so abhorred in these cults it's difficult to know if Gothard has the kind of self-awareness to realise that he has created a religion whose ideological base is built on and perfectly caters to his own personal interests, preferences and kinks.

[Liz Tudor]

I don't think Elron believed in Scientology either. Remember, he was a sci-fi writer first. I don't have the time at the moment to research, but Mr. Tudor, a lifelong avid Sci-Fi reader, said he remembered hearing/reading somewhere in the mists of time that Elron and other authors had a bet/dare to create a religion, and voila, Scientology was born. Started with Dianetics (which he may have believed) and went from there.

If anyone's interested about the fundamentals of Scientology, I highly recommend South Park's episode, "Trapped in the Closet," season 9, episode 12. Google it, it's out there in full (20 mins or so). In all seriousness, they give a good comprehensive picture of the "religion" and of course, make merciless fun of the high level celebs who bit off hard on it (Cruise, Travolta, Alley).

[questionfear]

I think L Ron Hubbard knew he was selling religious snake oil. What's more dangerous is that the current head of Scientology, David Miscavige, grew up in Scientology. So he probably believes it, or believes more of it, because he learned it as a young child. I think his fanatical desire to cling to those beliefs, combined with a heap of insecurity, is why he's been so militant and dangerous with protecting Scientology. 

[Satchels of gold]

In the documentary " going clear" Paul Haggis explains that when you finally get to the level of learning about about the the volcanos and the aliens you are in for hundreds of thousands of dollars and decades of your life. He feels like if they stated that all up front no one would join. They are very secretive about the materials in each level and beleive if people are exposed to the material before they are ready it can kill them. Cray-cray

[kokapetl]

They also copyrighted the clams and DC-8 spaceships stuff didn't they?

[Julia]

I downloaded the papers from that server in China back in the eighties but the only thing that stuck was the part about grokking a tree in its fullness. I don't know how anyone who isn't deeply stoned buys this.

[Micks Picks]

I'm thinning it is the confessing your deepest feelings to others that has them in common.  In both IBLP and Scientology, if you leave all your innermost thoughts and feelings will be revealed.

[Satchels of gold]

I used to lament being raised Irish Catholic and often wondered who I would be without all this guilt. Learning about the Duggars and also Scientology makes me realize It was a walk in the park. So if anyone sees the pontif on his upcoming trip tell him we are all good. No harm, no foul.

[JenCarroll]

L. Ron Hubbard invented Dianetics, a not completely unreasonable mind/body kind of thing, and then discovered that if he could call it a religion, he wouldn't have to pay taxes. I mean, yes, all of you are also correct as far as I know and it's never as simple as all that, but I believe the taxes breaks were a big factor.

[GeeGolly]

How 'bout someone start a genuine movement of goodness? Nah, who'd buy into that?

[Julia]

L. Ron Hubbard invented Dianetics, a not completely unreasonable mind/body kind of thing, and then discovered that if he could call it a religion, he wouldn't have to pay taxes. I mean, yes, all of you are also correct as far as I know and it's never as simple as all that, but I believe the taxes breaks were a big factor.

 

I'm pretty sure he was selling it as a therapeutic technique and was facing legal consequences, because there are implications to making medical claims unless you're a religion.

[frenchtoast]

Folks, let's try to keep this about religion and more specifically the Duggars and religion. There's been a lot of straying off topic, let's try to bring it back in.

Thanks!

[Micks Picks]

IBLP super fundies as a whole don't shun and excommunicate and call you a suppressive person like Scientology.  Even Anna's dad showed some acceptance after the defection of a child or two, although some time passed before he did.  It seems you can be fundy lite and get along ok with the majority of them.  Not all, but most.