Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Skittl1321]

 

Although, as a Protestant I admit that theory has never made much sense to me since logically it would require all of Mary's line before her to have been sinless as well, and I don't think the Catholic church goes that far.

Logically?  That isn't an issue.

She was conceived by normal means, by normal people. God acted to keep her soul immaculate.  God can do what he wants. Like make her appear on toast.

 

(I've never heard it taught that "Mary had to be sinless to conceive Jesus" as the post I originally replied to said; rather it was because of the forseen merits of her son, Jesus.)

Edited May 28, 2015 by Skittl1321

[Cherrio]

Logically?  That isn't an issue.

She was conceived by normal means, by normal people. God acted to keep her soul immaculate.  God can do what he wants. Like make her appear on toast.

 

(I've never heard it taught that "Mary had to be sinless to conceive Jesus" as the post I originally replied to said; rather it was because of the forseen merits of her son, Jesus.)

Toast.......LOL       

[anony mouse]

And, yes, to whoever above said that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception has NOTHING to do with Jesus' birth, but with MARY's birth--specifically the fact that if Jesus was born without sin, Mary must also have been born without sin. Although, as a Protestant I admit that theory has never made much sense to me since logically it would require all of Mary's line before her to have been sinless as well, and I don't think the Catholic church goes that far.

I was taught that Mary was born sinless because St. Anne and St. Joachim were older and desperately wanted a baby. They prayed to God, promising to pledge their child in service of the temple, if God would grant them a baby. Subsequently, Mary was born and for a time, served in the temple before her betrothal to Joseph.

I don't believe this is required belief, but it is accepted doctrine regarding the explanation for God's intercession into Mary's lack of original sin.

Edited May 28, 2015 by starving artist

[Sew Sumi]

There is this totally misinformed idea that cults only or mostly attract uneducated or people who aren't smart or talented. When most studies show that almost anyone can be taken in by a belief system (not all cults are religious) if the timing is right. Most cults actually are far more attractive because they emphasize a sense of community and superiority over the rest of humanity - we have something special that other people don't have. Sometimes that's expressed in religious language, but not always.

Indeed, most cult followers are college educated and longing to belong to something greater than themselves that also gives them a sense of purpose and control. It's not that a doctor joins and becomes anti-science. It's that he would just be another doctor among thousands in the rest of the world. In Gothard-Dom, he's one of the most revered people, his children prominent and important, his grandchildren making status marriages. Outside world? He's a doctor fighting with insurance companies.

Actually, Dr. Paine gave up his practice to the outside world and is now working for one of those for-profit prisons in OK. Nary an insurance company to be found when you treat convicted criminals. This was mentioned somewhere in these threads this past week, but I am not going to wade through hundreds of pages of posts for a needle in the haystack. :) 

 

Bottom line, his curent work is Gothard-approved, as he is on the Board of Directors of IBLP. 

[Rhondinella]

Logically?  That isn't an issue.

She was conceived by normal means, by normal people. God acted to keep her soul immaculate.  God can do what he wants. Like make her appear on toast.

(I've never heard it taught that "Mary had to be sinless to conceive Jesus" as the post I originally replied to said; rather it was because of the forseen merits of her son, Jesus.)

 

 

Thank you for that explanation.  I hadn't thought of it that way, but of course you're right in that "logic" doesn't really play into any of this in the first place.  Very interesting.

 

And toast . . . .LOL!! 

[Sew Sumi]

I own a mold for Holy Toast. Mary looks quite pious. :D

[merriebreeze]

Great article over at Salon about Gothardites written by a former adherent. The long curly hair is dictated by their leader. Now Michele's makeover and almost instantaneous regression to her old style makes sense. There's some strong willed females in the Duggar queue so there's hope that Gothard and his teachings will go the way of the dinosaurs. 

[GEML]

I'm the sort who would love reading dissertations on the Book of Numbers. Thanks for the small piece, Rhondinella.

And although there is never a direct comparison made, when the subject came up, I always pointed out that when Abraham and Sarah actively thwarted God's plan by involving Hagar and conceiving Ishmael, God gave Hagar and entire well of very sweet/drinkable water, even when she was cast out. As Rhondinella says - it depends on what you want to use as "biblical authority" to justify something.

[AnJen]

The different interpretations of the Bible are constantly amazing to me (sometimes in a good way, sometimes, like when it comes to the Duggars, in a bad way).

 

There's a very long discussion about the "bitter water" in a Bible study guide that was published by my church; our view of it is that it was a safety net: without a way to prove a woman's innocence, it was likely back then that she would have been stoned (as was the punishment for both men and women committing adultery under that law) based on accusation alone. An explanation is below:

 

The process was that a woman accused of adultery was taken to the judges; at her plea of innocence, she was taken to the Sanhedrin, which was essentially a higher court. Here, the woman would be dressed in black and stood before a group of women (as a jury? I'm not sure of the purpose of this); the priest would then say something along the lines of "If you are innocent, God will protect you, but if you're guilty God will curse you and make an example out of you," to which the woman would say "Amen" if she agreed to the trial. If she refused, it was considered an admission of guilt, and she and the man she had been committing adultery with would be stoned. 

The priest would then take a pitcher, fill it with water from the basin near the altar for burnt offerings; he would put a handful of dust mixed with wormwood (hence the bitterness) into the water. There's a part about torn clothes fastened into a girdle that I don't totally understand the purpose of, and then the woman drinks the water and is handed a pan full of barley meal. She drinks the water, waves the pan before the lord, and throws the barley meal into the fire on the altar. At this point, if she is innocent, she is sent home with her husband, and if she is guilty she immediately begins to die, and is carried out of the temple.

 

There's no mention of the woman being pregnant; in fact, in my bible, it specifically says that this above described test is given if the woman is not pregnant. 

 

Essentially, the point of the test was for a woman to be able to defend herself against the accusation; a woman who suspected her husband of adultery would name his mistress and accuse her, and that woman would go through the same process. 

 

Just wanted to chime in. :)

[Sew Sumi]

Wouldn't that concoction kill ALL women? Nice way to slutshame, Bible. 

[HeyNow]

Wouldn't that concoction kill ALL women? Nice way to slutshame, Bible. 

That's what I was wondering.... isn't it a bit like the Salem witch trials???

[NextIteration]

Wouldn't that concoction kill ALL women? Nice way to slutshame, Bible. 

 

Personally I'm going to hell for this reaction... "this patriarchy bullshit is old as Moses' toeses" is what went through my mind.  ::eyeroll::

[Absolom]

 

And he just told me that while all orthodox Western (Augustinian) church tradition (including all Protestants and Catholics) DOES preach some form of "original sin", the Eastern Orthodox tradition rejected that idea, or at least modified it early on.  He admits he is not an expert in this area, but he's pretty sure that their belief on the topic is more along the lines of "people are predisposed toward sin, or more likely to sin than not, but it's not a definite inherited thing."  I'm sure someone else with better knowledge of these traditions could help out here.

I am Eastern Orthodox, but I'm far, far from a theology expert.  That's close to what I have been taught.  EO basically didn't follow a lot of Augustinian thought.  Some theologians have even labelled some of his beliefs as heretical.  There is no original sin or sin's of the father being passed down in EO.  There are only personal sins.  We are only responsible for what  we, ourselves, do after the age of reason.  There is an acknowledgement that humans are not perfect which causes all of us to "miss the mark" at times which we are told is the meaning of sin.  Baptism of an older child or an adult would "wash away" the personal sins of the prior life, but there is no issue as in Catholicism of what to do about the infants who die before baptism as infants can not have personal sins.

[AnJen]

 

 

Wouldn't that concoction kill ALL women? Nice way to slutshame, Bible.

 

That's what I was wondering.... isn't it a bit like the Salem witch trials???

 

I don't see why it would; plenty of us have ingested dirt/sand by accident, either alone or mixed into water, so that part would be fine, and wormwood is an herb with medicinal qualities. I've never tasted absinthe, but I assume it would be a similar experience, since absinthe is made with wormwood.

 

As I said above, I don't personally believe the law was ever intended to slut shame...or if it was, it was intended to slut shame men and women alike, not one over another. I don't specifically know the details of why women were given this trial over men, but the end results were the same for each: if the woman was guilty, she and the man she'd been having the affair with both died. If she was innocent, they both lived.

 

I think thinking about it from a modern perspective makes it sound worse; but these people lived under a very strict Levitical law where adultery was an extremely serious crime. Because of how seriously they took it, I don't think people went about accusing one another of being adulterers unless they had a fairly good reason to suspect such.

Edited May 29, 2015 by AnJen

[Rhondinella]

I'm the sort who would love reading dissertations on the Book of Numbers. Thanks for the small piece, Rhondinella.

 

 

Heh.  It's actually not ON Numbers.  It's on the water imagery in the Gospel of John.  But in looking at that I investigated the uses of water in the Old Testament, and I ran across this passage in the process.

 

I am Eastern Orthodox, but I'm far, far from a theology expert.  That's close to what I have been taught.  EO basically didn't follow a lot of Augustinian thought.  Some theologians have even labelled some of his beliefs as heretical.  There is no original sin or sin's of the father being passed down in EO.  There are only personal sins.  We are only responsible for what  we, ourselves, do after the age of reason.  There is an acknowledgement that humans are not perfect which causes all of us to "miss the mark" at times which we are told is the meaning of sin.  Baptism of an older child or an adult would "wash away" the personal sins of the prior life, but there is no issue as in Catholicism of what to do about the infants who die before baptism as infants can not have personal sins.

 

 

Thanks for explaining that Absolom.  Very interesting.

 

The process was that a woman accused of adultery was taken to the judges; at her plea of innocence, she was taken to the Sanhedrin, which was essentially a higher court. Here, the woman would be dressed in black and stood before a group of women (as a jury? I'm not sure of the purpose of this); the priest would then say something along the lines of "If you are innocent, God will protect you, but if you're guilty God will curse you and make an example out of you," to which the woman would say "Amen" if she agreed to the trial. If she refused, it was considered an admission of guilt, and she and the man she had been committing adultery with would be stoned.

The priest would then take a pitcher, fill it with water from the basin near the altar for burnt offerings; he would put a handful of dust mixed with wormwood (hence the bitterness) into the water. There's a part about torn clothes fastened into a girdle that I don't totally understand the purpose of, and then the woman drinks the water and is handed a pan full of barley meal. She drinks the water, waves the pan before the lord, and throws the barley meal into the fire on the altar. At this point, if she is innocent, she is sent home with her husband, and if she is guilty she immediately begins to die, and is carried out of the temple.

There's no mention of the woman being pregnant; in fact, in my bible, it specifically says that this above described test is given if the woman is not pregnant.

 

 

Interesting take, Anjen.  And I agree that the test could have worked in the woman's favor as much as it did against her.  However, I have to disagree about the idea that the punishment was death.  I would have to read more scholarly material on the subject, but I don't know why the womb and uterus are specifically mentioned as "discharging" in the passage unless that was referring to a spontaneous abortion.  But you may be reading from a different translation and so it might read differently.  I'd have to go dig into the scholarly literature to know more.  But either way, the passage is clearly being abused by Gothard/ATI when it is used as it was in that lesson.

[Sew Sumi]

My apologies for not knowing the effects of the plants/herbs on the body. What does seem to be confirmed that my reaction (slut shaming) is exactly what GOTHARD wants. I would think that his adherents have a far better grasp of these biblical passages than I do and would be less easy to fool. 

 

*sigh*

[Chalby]

Don't fundies believe that you are BORN with sin? I'm pretty sure that Pa Seewald has alluded to that in the past, as has Ben. What a burden for a poor baby/child, who is not able to fully come to Jesus until they are a little older and are then baptized into the faith. It really irks me that they look at Baby Iz and think, "Sinner!" :/

I feel so sorry for an average, wonderful little girl (or boy) who would be born into this religion/cult as they would be expected to confess sins they may not have. I was fortunate enough to have enough years between siblings that I never felt jealousy towards them, only pride. I loved helping my mother, and I felt no bad feelings towards helping others. Overall, I was a pretty boring little child, but guaranteed, it would have devastated me to be accused of holding so much sin within, when there was nothing to begin with. I had actually considered going into the youth ministry as I wanted to "serve others". It's just as well I didn't, what if I came across those who felt I wasn't giving enough of my self.

[allonsyalice]

thank you guys for clearing up the bitter water dealio. i thought it was a gothard thing.

[Muffyn]

I feel so sorry for an average, wonderful little girl (or boy) who would be born into this religion/cult as they would be expected to confess sins they may not have. I was fortunate enough to have enough years between siblings that I never felt jealousy towards them, only pride. I loved helping my mother, and I felt no bad feelings towards helping others. Overall, I was a pretty boring little child, but guaranteed, it would have devastated me to be accused of holding so much sin within, when there was nothing to begin with. I had actually considered going into the youth ministry as I wanted to "serve others". It's just as well I didn't, what if I came across those who felt I wasn't giving enough of my self.

Having been raised Catholic, this makes me think of going to confession in preparation for first holy communion.  The nuns told us we needed at least three sins to confess.  I have no idea why three was the magic number.  At 6 years old, it's really hard to come up with sins.  A few of us got together and brainstormed.  I remember we generally agreed we must have thought mean thoughts about a sibling and not done our chores when first asked.  I don;t know what #3 was.  I'm sure the priest was really bored but probably a bit charmed by our attempts to come up with something to say.  

[Bella]

Having been raised Catholic, this makes me think of going to confession in preparation for first holy communion.  The nuns told us we needed at least three sins to confess.  I have no idea why three was the magic number.  At 6 years old, it's really hard to come up with sins.  A few of us got together and brainstormed.  I remember we generally agreed we must have thought mean thoughts about a sibling and not done our chores when first asked.  I don;t know what #3 was.  I'm sure the priest was really bored but probably a bit charmed by our attempts to come up with something to say.  

 

Then there's the story of the little girl who hit her brother in order to have something to confess. Would #3 have been telling a lie? Because most small children do that at one point or another.

[GEML]

Remember when Michelle made sure that Mack was treating Josie badly? Believe me, a Fundy child has had plenty of reminders of "sins" to confess by the time she can put thoughts together. It's part of the process. If the child is fortunate, the child is also praised for having certain talents. (That's biblical too, and to be fair, the Duggar children do seem to be proud of certain talents they do have, so their parents must have done some praising, and Anna praises. Her children are pleased with themselves. You can tell.)

[charmed1]

Gothard has always been controversial among biblical Christians. Many of his teachings are Old Testament-based and/or teachings he made up himself. There are rules for everything - what to eat, how to treat illnesses (really goofy), what to wear, how to apply makeup, why people shouldn't adopt children, etc. Children should not attend colleges and must wait until they are married to move away from home, etc. But on top of this, he's never married or had children of his own, and he's long been known to engage in inappropriate activities with young ladies who come to work at his Institute. He's finally being investigated, and he resigned from IBLP in March. Many of his "disciples" are still in denial about him, but eyes are slowly being opened.

I'm very curious about Bill Gothard's upbringing. Does he come from a large, Christian fundamentalist family as well? The "rules" that he's created especially regarding the female aesthetic. Where did he get them from? Especially the long curly hair thing. Did his own mother have that same look? Or was she some bad ass vaudeville flapper who kept her hair in a short bob and dropped little Billy off with a nickel to go watch the talkies every day? Did he serve in the military? I picture him being a very awkward boy and young man who no woman would want. Very Boo Radley-esque without the last second heroism.

[Sew Sumi]

Gothard was of my dad's generation. Post WWII, all men over 18 had to spend two years in the military. My dad chose the Navy and stayed in for four years so he'd qualify for the GI Bill. I'm sure Gothard had to serve in some capacity, and I bet he hated every moment of having to take orders from superiors, hence his views about the military in his "teachings." His Wikipedia bio doesn't list military service, but there were 4 years between his undergrad and Masters degrees. I imagine that's when he got his time in. 

[JenCarroll]

Then there's the story of the little girl who hit her brother in order to have something to confess. Would #3 have been telling a lie? Because most small children do that at one point or another.

1. I thought mean thoughts about my brother.

2. I didn't do my chores when asked.

3. I made up numbers one and two just to have something to confess.

[Aja]

Did his own mother have that same look? Or was she some bad ass vaudeville flapper who kept her hair in a short bob and dropped little Billy off with a nickel to go watch the talkies every day?

 

Please let it be the second.

[Wellfleet]

Gothard was of my dad's generation. Post WWII, all men over 18 had to spend two years in the military. My dad chose the Navy and stayed in for four years so he'd qualify for the GI Bill. I'm sure Gothard had to serve in some capacity, and I bet he hated every moment of having to take orders from superiors, hence his views about the military in his "teachings." His Wikipedia bio doesn't list military service, but there were 4 years between his undergrad and Masters degrees. I imagine that's when he got his time in. 

 

Maybe, like Me-chelle, ole Bill - who I'm very tempted to refer to as ole Bull, also suffers from "missing muscle syndrome" and got his military service deferred, excused - whatever. This would surprise me NOT AT ALL.

[Fuzzysox]

I'm very curious about Bill Gothard's upbringing. Does he come from a large, Christian fundamentalist family as well? The "rules" that he's created especially regarding the female aesthetic. Where did he get them from? Especially the long curly hair thing. Did his own mother have that same look? Or was she some bad ass vaudeville flapper who kept her hair in a short bob and dropped little Billy off with a nickel to go watch the talkies every day? Did he serve in the military? I picture him being a very awkward boy and young man who no woman would want. Very Boo Radley-esque without the last second heroism.

I read his wiki page and was shocked to learn that he is half Spanish. His mother's maiden name was Torres. IDK if she had curkly hair but oe thingb is for sure he is just plan creepy.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[Happyfatchick]

Don't fundies believe that you are BORN with sin? I'm pretty sure that Pa Seewald has alluded to that in the past, as has Ben. /

Not born "with" sin, but that man is born with a "sinful nature". As in, you never teach a 2 year old to lie, they come by it because of their sinful nature. Also, as far as Iz (or any baby) being a sinner, he's clean. You aren't responsible (and therefore not punishable by God) for sins until you reach the age of accountability. This "age" (AOA) thing is a moving target based on a persons awareness of sin, their need for Jesus, and their maturity level. Most families in more normal (mainstream) churches (if they attend regularly and are active in church) expect a child to start asking how to be "saved" around the age of eight. The average age for fundies is lower, sometimes as young as FOUR. Baptism is encouraged as the first act of obedience for a believer after the child "accepts Jesus". However, in the mainstream non-fundie churches, it is acceptable if a child waits for baptism until they are comfortable with it - sometimes not until they are teens. Fundies want that carried out as soon as possible.

This isn't research talking, this is all first hand. BTDT!

Edited because I can't type nor proofread apparently.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[JoanArc]

Gothard was of my dad's generation. Post WWII, all men over 18 had to spend two years in the military. My dad chose the Navy and stayed in for four years so he'd qualify for the GI Bill. I'm sure Gothard had to serve in some capacity, and I bet he hated every moment of having to take orders from superiors, hence his views about the military in his "teachings." His Wikipedia bio doesn't list military service, but there were 4 years between his undergrad and Masters degrees. I imagine that's when he got his time in. 

Gothard was 13 in 1947, when the WWII draft ran out. So, I doubt he ever did any military time. Cowards like him leave the fighting to others.

Edit: He might have gotten involved in Korea, but I doubt that.

Edited May 29, 2015 by JoanArc

[Wellfleet]

I'm very curious about Bill Gothard's upbringing. Does he come from a large, Christian fundamentalist family as well? The "rules" that he's created especially regarding the female aesthetic. Where did he get them from? Especially the long curly hair thing. Did his own mother have that same look? Or was she some bad ass vaudeville flapper who kept her hair in a short bob and dropped little Billy off with a nickel to go watch the talkies every day? Did he serve in the military? I picture him being a very awkward boy and young man who no woman would want. Very Boo Radley-esque without the last second heroism.

 

Me too. I am intensely curious about Gothard's family background, history. There HAS to be a connection of some kind between his upbringing and all these off-the-wall antiquated concepts coming along 40 years later - or whenever. Something mighty significant occurred somewhere in this man's past. I hope someday we'll find out exactly what.

[Happyfatchick]

Gothard was 13 in 1947, when the WWII draft ran out. So, I doubt he ever did any military time. Cowards like him leave the fighting to others.

Edit: He might have gotten involved in Korea, but I doubt that.

.

He didn't, not that I ever heard or read about. I've heard him give his own outline of his life many times, and he never mentioned having served at all.

Gothard is a very small man. I doubt he stands 5'6, and is just small. (I'm not knocking small statured men, I come from very small stock. All those short squirts in my family are little red roosters with tempers and man-vibes. Napoleon complexes all around). Gothard is meek and soft spoken. Looks like he'd run like a crazy person from any threat of violence. I WISH he'd enlisted, that is a pretty good visual.

[Wellfleet]

Gothard was 13 in 1947, when the WWII draft ran out. So, I doubt he ever did any military time. Cowards like him leave the fighting to others.

Edit: He might have gotten involved in Korea, but I doubt that.

 

If the WWII draft officially ended in 1947, something similar took its place because my Dad was drafted in 1950 at the age of 20, and his younger brother in 1960, for required military service. Their middle brother was married with a child in the early 50s or he would have served also. Both my Dad and uncle served 4 year stints and both were very fortunate with their assignments. Dad was in the Army, an MP in Berlin during the Occupation, instead of being packed off to Korea. My uncle joined the Marines, serving mainly in Georgia and not in Vietnam, though his unit was temporarily in Florida for a stretch of time during and after the Cuban Missile Crisis, Oct 1962. 

 

However I completely agree about Gothard. I'd be stunned to learn he actually served in any service branch at all.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Wellfleet

[funky-rat]

There is this totally misinformed idea that cults only or mostly attract uneducated or people who aren't smart or talented. When most studies show that almost anyone can be taken in by a belief system (not all cults are religious) if the timing is right. Most cults actually are far more attractive because they emphasize a sense of community and superiority over the rest of humanity - we have something special that other people don't have. Sometimes that's expressed in religious language, but not always.

Indeed, most cult followers are college educated and longing to belong to something greater than themselves that also gives them a sense of purpose and control. It's not that a doctor joins and becomes anti-science. It's that he would just be another doctor among thousands in the rest of the world. In Gothard-Dom, he's one of the most revered people, his children prominent and important, his grandchildren making status marriages. Outside world? He's a doctor fighting with insurance companies.

 

 

There is a personality type that doesn't do well. But I'd caution that any of us are truly too rational to never be taken in. After all, it's not really about God/religion, it's usually about a charismatic narcissistic personality who is very human, very charming, and actually doesn't mind those questions.

If that person comes along at a particular moment in your life when you are vulnerable, that's how people get caught up in cults. Not because they are stupid or irrational or easily lead or refuse to think for themselves.

And once you're in, you may be isolated, or you may have far too much to lose, or you may be a true believer, etc. So you stay.

Look no further than Jonestown and Jim Jones.  Many of the people involved with Jim Jones were intelligent people.  He came around at the right time -  a time of great social unrest - and was charming and charismatic.  He had a message of utopia that a lot of people bought into.  By the time a lot of his followers realized that things were very bad, it was too late.  They couldn't get out.  Jonestown had licensed medical staff on hand.

[Cherrio]

I am thinking Gothard came up with his warped and disgusting beliefs while mowing his lawn in a speedo.

 

On a serious note, I remember a reading a post about how Gothard was intelligent, well educated and charismatic.    My first thought was, so was Ted Bundy.

[Sew Sumi]

Gothard was 13 in 1947, when the WWII draft ran out. So, I doubt he ever did any military time. Cowards like him leave the fighting to others.

Edit: He might have gotten involved in Korea, but I doubt that.

The two-year requirement lasted through most of the 1950's. I'm a baseball buff, and most of the players of that era had their careers interrupted to do their service. And unlike Vietnam, you couldn't get a student deferrment; when it was your turn, you went. That said, I agree that if he found some physical disability to get around it, he certainly avoided service. It's not his eyes; I've never seen a picture of him wearing glasses, even back in the day before lasik surgery. 

[charmed1]

Thanks guys. I checked out the wiki page which led me to his personal website, which then led me to his biography and then I realized I might get caught in some Gothard black hole and stopped. I see he's one of six kids. I wonder if he has any living siblings.

I wanted to chime in on the cult discussion.

Cults are very clever when looking for prey. They lurk on college campuses because what better place to find educated, but young, impressionable minds who don't exactly fit in with their peers? And they'll tell their new recruits that their friends and family will likely tell them that they're in cults, but not to believe them because they're really just a bunch of regular ol folk.

Right after college, I dated a guy and we ended up breaking up. He called me a few months later and asked me to go to church with him. I grew up Baptist, but always hated church, but I agreed. He said it wasn't going to be like that. Just a bunch of kids our age who meet in a gym in the city and talk about God for a few minutes. But then we pulled up to what wasn't a gym, but a house and it wasn't in the city, it was out in the suburbs. In somebody's living room, I met a bunch of people who were overly friendly and my instincts told me to not trust them. They asked me a lot of questions about myself within a few minutes. One girl chatted me up and asked if I could help get her a job where I worked. I gave her my work number because my desk phone had caller ID. We each were asked to go around the room and read passages out of the bible.

I was so angry that I leaned over and told my ex bc to take me home now. But the cult leader pulled my him aside and l could hear him whisper "did you make sure they got her number?" I inched towards the door. Then the the guy insisted I stay for food and what I thought I heard as I kid you not...KOOL-AID. I bolted. Suddenly I was on the sidewalk running in a neighborhood I was unfamiliar with, nowhere near public transportation. Not a dime in my pocket and no cell phone to speak of. All I knew was that I was not going back into that house. My ex caught up with me and I guess my tears snapped him back to reality. He assured me I was safe and he'd drive me home. But when I was firmly strapped in my seat, his "chaperone" slid in the backseat. I was silent all the way to my apartment, trying to remember street names and routes in case I had to suddenly roll out of the door. My ex, who actually did have a cell phone, kept getting calls from the cult leader asking for his whereabouts and his ETA. I cursed him out and told him I could never trust him and to never call me again.

Looking back, I can laugh at it, but at the time, I was a terrified 22 year old girl who couldn't understand how someone so smart could get caught up in something so obviously stupid. And my ex was even more street savvy than I was. He was the last person I'd expect to end up in this Jonestown kind of crap. I remember telling my co-worker about it shortly after, and she told me that very same cult had been kicked off of Howard U's campus and that they were always searching for new recruits.

[Cherrio]

OMG !     That story scared the shit out of me.

 

Did you ever find out what cult it was?   If that is too nosy, that's cool too.

[JenCarroll]

If the WWII draft officially ended in 1947, something similar took its place because my Dad was drafted in 1950 at the age of 20, and his younger brother in 1960, for required military service. Their middle brother was married with a child in the early 50s or he would have served also. Both my Dad and uncle served 4 year stints and both were very fortunate with their assignments. Dad was in the Army, an MP in Berlin during the Occupation, instead of being packed off to Korea. My uncle joined the Marines, serving mainly in Georgia and not in Vietnam, though his unit was temporarily in Florida for a stretch of time during and after the Cuban Missile Crisis, Oct 1962.

However I completely agree about Gothard. I'd be stunned to learn he actually served in any service branch at all.

That was the "peacetime draft," although my dad refers to it as "Cold War One." Dad spent two years keeping Maryland safe for democracy (and taking leave for Jewish holidays that he'd never even heard of before). Still, it was a lottery draft; not every single eligible person got called up.

ETA: Bad vision would keep you out of actual combat, but would not get you out of serving.

Edited May 29, 2015 by JenCarroll

[charmed1]

OMG ! That story scared the shit out of me.

Did you ever find out what cult it was? If that is too nosy, that's cool too.

Cherrio, I will never forget. The International Church of Christ. They're everywhere. I just googled them and found this on a website:

The International Church of Christ (ICC) is a Christian based mind control cult. It has all the traits necessary to classify it as a mind control cult, including the teaching that it is the one true church, love bombing, deceptive recruiting, time control, relationship control, and the rest.

I hope I haven't violated any off-topic guidelines, I never know what is off topic here, but some groups are very crafty and I'd hate for anyone's young kid, niece or anybody to get caught up. There's a site for survivors of this group that's similar to Recovering Grace if anyone needs it: reveal.org

Edited May 29, 2015 by charmed1

[GEML]

There is also the problem that Americans do think that people who are simply devoutly religious are in a cult. I can't tell you how often I've been asked if I grew up in a cult, when my childhood denomination is decidedly mainstream. I simply attended a very Fundamentalist congregation within it. But there was never any notion of following a leader or being isolated. Those are two important components to cults that are important distinctions.

[KatWay]

 

There is also the problem that Americans do think that people who are simply devoutly religious are in a cult.

Not just Americans think that. As far as I know, European Christians also tend to think most of the more fundamental Christian sects in the US are "sects" or cult-ish. Mainstream in the US (or parts of the US) can sometimes be considered hardcore conservative in Europe.

[Fuzzysox]

I have a question. I was raised Catholic and if we want to coonfess we can do it in a confessional with a priest listening to our sins. I was also taught that you can confess your sins directly to God which I prefer to do.

So confessing in from of the whole conregation is bizarre to me. Why would you want strangers to know your business?

Can someone please explain this to me. TIA

[Rhetorica]

I have a question. I was raised Catholic and if we want to coonfess we can do it in a confessional with a priest listening to our sins. I was also taught that you can confess your sins directly to God which I prefer to do.

So confessing in from of the whole conregation is bizarre to me. Why would you want strangers to know your business?

Can someone please explain this to me. TIA

I was raised Lutheran. Our liturgy is very similar to yours, but we have congressional confession. That just means in part of the service the congregation recites: "Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean..." but we confess particulars directly to God.

[galax-arena]

charmed1, I've heard about the ICC! I researched and kept tabs on them in college since they seemed to do big business on campus. I had a job on campus and overheard a coworker - who was an ICC member - inviting another coworker to church... I took her aside later and warned her about the group. I think they might have mellowed out in recent years though? Not sure. 

 

 

They lurk on college campuses because what better place to find educated, but young, impressionable minds who don't exactly fit in with their peers?

Yeah, cults are big on exploiting emotional vulnerability, which is why they do great recruiting on college campuses. You have a bunch of young eager freshmen, many of whom are away from home for the first time in their lives. They're perhaps homesick and looking for a place to belong. Many are bright but also naive. They're essentially perfect cult fodder. 

 

We all like to think we're too logical and critical to ever join a cult but we're all still just human. Nobody's rational 100% of the time. And sometimes people are willing to toss a little rationality by the wayside in order to feel like they belong, which I think is an understandable impulse. I probably know more about cults than your average person - not that I'm exactly an expert, but I've been inordinately fascinated by cults since I was a kid and even gave speeches about them in high school; I think my teachers thought I was weird lol - and I still think that I could have fallen prey to a cult back in college. I was young and lonely and looking for friends. As things turned out, I did fall in with a religious group that was much more conservative than my previous religious upbringing had been, not because I necessarily truly agreed with their beliefs but because they were the first people (aside from my roommate) to befriend me and it was like this ready-made family. And my roommate also joined them and so it felt like a no-brainer. Fortunately they weren't a cult, just a regular ol' Southern Baptist group, but considering how uncritically willing I was to throw my lot in with them simply because I liked feeling like I belonged to something, I'm just grateful that they got to me first and not, say, the ICC. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by galax-arena

[Sew Sumi]

I have a question. I was raised Catholic and if we want to coonfess we can do it in a confessional with a priest listening to our sins. I was also taught that you can confess your sins directly to God which I prefer to do.

So confessing in from of the whole conregation is bizarre to me. Why would you want strangers to know your business?

Can someone please explain this to me. TIA

I think this sort of confession goes with the hard-core sects like IFB or the Amish (correct me if I'm wrong there, but I am pretty sure I've seen accounts of congregational confessions with them). I know Doug Phillips claims he did a sin confession when he was first caught with Lourdes. However, sin confessions only seem to be about sex. I don't think I've ever heard about one saying "My sister stole my favorite jewelry box..." In fact, in this case, mere and pere Duggar made the victim be sweet to the thief. 

[Desertfrank]

Charmed1,

I've been lurking for awhile, but decided to jump in and join the conversation.

I knew you were referring to the International Church of Christ, by the way you described your experience. I'm a former ICOC member. REVEAL.org is a good resource. I wrote a paper for them about my experiences called The Death of A Dream. I've read a little bit about Gothard, and from what I can see, his teachings are quite a bit different from the ICOC, but where there's a convergence is in the legalism and control. A focus on externals. I remember the ICOC emphasizing instant obedience from their children ("obeying the first time"), and that reminds me of Gothardism. The ICOC, however, is not at all opposed to birth control, but then again, women have leadership positions in the church, and large families would hinder evangelism and tithing to the church.

[mynextmistake]

Having been raised Catholic, this makes me think of going to confession in preparation for first holy communion.  The nuns told us we needed at least three sins to confess.  I have no idea why three was the magic number.  At 6 years old, it's really hard to come up with sins.  A few of us got together and brainstormed.  I remember we generally agreed we must have thought mean thoughts about a sibling and not done our chores when first asked.  I don;t know what #3 was.  I'm sure the priest was really bored but probably a bit charmed by our attempts to come up with something to say.

Heh. I was such a literally-minded child that when my grandfather took me to confession for the first time, I remember asking the priest if I really had to confess *all* my sins because if so he was going to be there for a while. He had to explain that I didn't need to account for every single instance in which I had ever been mean to my brother, failed to clean my room, or whatever.

[Happyfatchick]

I think this sort of confession goes with the hard-core sects like IFB or the Amish (correct me if I'm wrong there, but I am pretty sure I've seen accounts of congregational confessions with them). I know Doug Phillips claims he did a sin confession when he was first caught with Lourdes. However, sin confessions only seem to be about sex. I don't think I've ever heard about one saying "My sister stole my favorite jewelry box..." In fact, in this case, mere and pere Duggar made the victim be sweet to the thief.

s

Yes, the Amish require confession before the church if you sin AND have been baptized into the church. But there again, we're talking BIG sin. Not the petty stuff, but a big fat sin and you get busted. It is unbelievable the amount of stress to stand before your entire church and confess a wrongdoing. Terrifying. Shaking in your shoes, puking terrifying.

And when you get done and sit back down, pasty faced and still think you might pass out from the terror and SHAME...the bishop confers with the elders and they state your sentence. You shall be shunned for 6 months (and give your neighbor TWO horses back for the one you stole). And of course, after 6 months, it's not automatic the bann is removed. You get to stand before the church and plead your case again. Another meeting with heads bent together, and the bann is either lifted or continued until you are deemed repentant. Meanwhile, your entire Amish family and every Amish soul you've known your whole life will not speak to you until the bann is gone.

[becca3891]

Thanks guys. I checked out the wiki page which led me to his personal website, which then led me to his biography and then I realized I might get caught in some Gothard black hole and stopped. I see he's one of six kids. I wonder if he has any living siblings.

Wow, that story was scary! Glad you escaped. As to Gothard's siblings, you should check out Steve Gothard, Bill's brother who used to be high up in the IBLP world before resigning after having multiple affairs with its secretaries. On the surface, I would have said that an affair is better than sexually harassing over 30 women (probably many, many more who will never come forward) but the fact that it was multiple secretaries makes me highly suspicious that Steve was possibly intimidating these women and abusing his power. Either way, they are a creepy, super hypocritical pair of brothers.

[mbutterfly]

I was raised Lutheran. Our liturgy is very similar to yours, but we have congressional confession. That just means in part of the service the congregation recites: "Most merciful God, we confess that we are by nature sinful and unclean..." but we confess particulars directly to God.

We Methodists also have (though less routinely) congregational confessions more along the lines of "we have failed to hear the cry of the poor." I guess for me that has come to to be focus of what I should be confessing. I am familiar with denominations that encourage speaking openly about some personal venal sin. The problem, I've been told, is that others (often others sitting in the congregation) are "outed" much to their discomfort. I'm doubting the scriptural basis for this practice. Rather, speak with a pastor or 2 or 3 elders. Do we know whether the Gothard folks do personal public confessions?