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S04.E22: A Dark Knight: No Man's Land

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SEASON FINALE!

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Jeremiah warns Gordon of more destruction coming Gotham's way; Gordon is forced to make a potentially devastating decision; Barbara rallies together a team to secure her position; Bruce is forced to come to terms with the future.

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Holy shit! The way this ended, I am so glad this was renewed! I would have been so pissed if this was how everything ended! 

So, this episode was pretty much a giant PSA as to why falling in love in Gotham is a baaaaad idea. 

Our baby Batman is just about fully grown!

Also: Shout Out to the CRT TV I watched this on in my “hotel” room. 

You da real MVP!

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Not gonna lie. The scene with Gordon and Bruce on the roof with the spotlight gave me goosebumps.

I'm a big ol' geek.

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2 minutes ago, RandomWatcher said:

Poor Selina. 

I’m sure she’ll be fine. Unless we’re getting a major Canon re-writing and she becomes Oracle. 

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If this had been the series finale I wouldn’t have hated it.  As a matter of fact  except for the Riddler/Lee thing I would rank it as one of the better finales.  That being said I am glad we will be getting another season shortened as it is.

i really enjoyed Barbara’s storyline and how she figured out how to kill Ra.  And is it wrong that I kind of dig her “No men” thing?

i loved Jeremiah’s speech to Bruce about their future. “We will build a legacy in this city.  Gotham falls. We rise.  Together.”

However it was the final few minutes with the spotlight that hit me when Jim and Bruce talked about the day they me

Bruce “I remember the night we met.  You told me the world might seem dark...”

Jim “But there is always a light”

Edited by Chaos Theory
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20 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

So who were the new villains at the end? Man-Bat? What about creepy doll faces?

One appears to be the kid Penguin had an affinity for early in the season. The one Zsasz lied about knowing the location of during the Sophia arc. 

But I missed a big chunk of the season so that’s pure speculation on my part

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I feel a little guilty b/c i haven't posted in the episode threads for like 3 weeks now, but anyways...NOOOOOOO BUTCH NOOOOOO

way to break my heart, show. I loved butch and tabs together :'( 

If he's truly dead then RIP to one of my last remaining faves. Harvey's all i got left at this point (in terms of truly favorite characters). We even lost ra's this episode too :'(

I'm in the camp that says this would have been a really unsatisfying series finale. Sure we got more villains introduced and the precursor to the bat signal, etc. but i just don't think it had enough. It was too unresolved, imo.

I actually think the season 3 finale worked a lot better as a possible series finale (you could tell they set things up in a way that showed they were unsure of renewal even at that point), if we're comparing the last two finales we've had.

A lot of the storylines in the s3 finale were set up well enough where you could see the dots connect from where things were left hanging to when batman finally becomes an actual thing. Does that make any sense? You could argue that this finale did somewhat the same, but things and events just didn't click and connect as well, imo.

This finale didn't have me feeling oddly in peace with the possibility of cancellation compared to last season. But of course i'm super stoked for season 5! 

Season 4 thoughts:

  • I love love loved the first half of this season. Probably my new favorite season if you count the fall and spring halves as kind of their own seasons (not counting s1 for obvious reasons). I thought 4b took a bit of tumble right around the middle as i lost interest, but i still think it turned out decently solid.
  • 4a>4b. The ra's al ghul storyline, queen sofia and the pyg sealed the deal on this one. 
  • I feel like i need to rewatch season 2 now to see which season i enjoyed more. 4a or 2b...hmmmm
Edited by HoodlumSheep
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Even though I knew going in that the plan for this episode was to blow up Gotham and create total anarchy, I was very underwhelmed.

This felt very much like a retread of the S1 and S3 finales...the only difference is, this time, the storyline is expected to stick, because Gotham has only one season left.

Truth be told, Gotham was supposed to fall into anarchy when the Waynes died...then when the crime bosses were toppled. Then when "the virus" was unleashed.

Ho hum. The only good part is that next year, there's no turning back.

Oh, and good to see Malik Yoba, though he kind of air mailed it tonight.

Cool to see the first Bat signal though.

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He was in much of the episode, had some good supporting moments. No zingers and he was pretty much in the background...but he was there. The highlight was him drawing his gun on the Major when he tried to arrest Jim again, only to see the rest of the GCPD follow suit...that shows that Harvey and Jim and the GCPD have truly come full circle this year.

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Just got off from the Arrow finale. Big difference between that and Gotham tonight? The latter's finale had hope. Heavy-handed, mawkish hope . . . but still hope. So, of course, we're gonna have to wait a while for the final season.

Seriously, it's a little disheartening to see a lack of activity on the episode threads, because I honestly believe Gotham is much more than the crazy aunt that's locked in the attic. Yes, the plot intensity started at 8 out of 10, and every scene tonight felt like a standoff, but not giving a shit is what makes this series fun. Yes, I rank Legends of Tomorrow higher (so much mileage out of a Furby knockoff, you guys), but Gotham deserves love. Shit, wouldn't you cop to liking David Mazouz as Bruce Wayne more than Ben Affleck at this point? Okay, Sean Pertwee over Jeremy Irons would be tougher to sell, but Gotham goes over better than anything Batman-related in the DCEU.

Poor Butch. Seriously, why go back to normal? Was he crushing stuff without trying? or did he just not like being chalky? He's normal for about a half-minute, then Oswald kills him to hurt Tabitha after she had killed his mother two seasons ago. Feels like forever, doesn't it? But, hey, Tabby now has a new gig with Babs' "Sirens" club. Because men are the problem in general. I think blame can be spread around everywhere.

BTW, didn't Butch and the Assassians go out like bitches or what? It's like they didn't understand that death would follow the ominous sentence. As soon as Barbara was ranting after hearing about Butch's death, Ra's' guys should've been, "Well, it's been fun. We gotta do secret ninja stuff and get out before this city burns to the ground."

Since Gotham has a policy about second chances, I'm guessing no more Ra's. For real? He's a first-tier Bat-villain. Or maybe he has a brother who will be the actual Ra's? #SmallvilleCopout

I'm a bit disappointed that the second-tier freaks immediately started factions. I liked the approach of DC's "No Man's Land" story, where we start three months into Gotham being cut off from the world, and the various gangs had been formed. Here? "Okay, I got a few dozen followers, and this city is officially a disaster. Let's make this work!!!"

Holy shit, was that a Man-Bat? That was a Man-Bat.

Bottom line: lets make the final season worth remembering in 2019.

ETA: And lets bring in Hugo Strange next year. I miss his brand of crazy. Fuck, set Ivy up as his new Peabody. Anything's possible!

Edited by Lantern7
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So, basically the next/final season is going to be like the Arkham City game, where the city of Gotham has been turned into an island run by the criminals, with each faction having their own section.  Hey, I can dig it!  Also we got hints some new villains like Man-Bat and the characters with the doll faces.  Only person I didn't see was Victor Zsasz and I really hope he makes a final appearance as well!

Damn, Oswald really is about the waiting game, huh?  The only reason he wanted Hugo Strange to bring Butch back was not because of loyalty, but because he wanted to kill him in front of Tabitha for what she did to his mother seasons ago.  Talk about the long con!  I'm sure he's made an enemy out of her now.  Oh, and Babs too, who has decided now that all men suck, and has made her section a men-free zone.  Yeah, that's in character, honestly.

Nothing says love like making out after you've stabbed each other with the same knife!  Lee and Nygma are so twisted!  And dead... kind of.  Looks like Strange is going to be resurrecting them, which should be fun!

I liked how they staged all of Bruce/Ra's/Jeremiah's scenes with the two villains flanking Bruce almost all of the time.  In a lot of ways, they end up being two of Batman's most important adversaries.  While he might not be the household name like The Penguin or The Riddle become, Ra's is the reason Bruce became the Batman he ends up being.  And, of course, if Jeremiah is suppose to be representation of The Joker, well, we know how significant he is.

Can't wait to see what the final season has in store!

Edited by thuganomics85
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Not gonna lie, seeing Jim standing on the roof with the proto Batsignal, with Bruce standing next to him, gave me serious goosebumps. I got more Batman goosebumps in that one moment then I did in in the entirety of the DCEU. 

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2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

So who were the new villains at the end?...............What about creepy doll faces?

 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

..................Also we got hints some new villains like..........the characters with the doll faces.................................

My guess is that doll face kid is Roman Sionis aka Black Mask,

sadistic kingpin boss of Gotham City who started out wearing a dorky looking doll mask

and then graduated into wearing a skull face (looking like a black version of Red Skull)

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You know, if that was the series finale, I think I would be alright with it. Yeah it leaves us on a cliffhanger, but the imagine of Gotham losing its mind (even more so than usual) while Jim lights the bat signal for the first time, and he and Bruce talk about finding light in the darkness, is a pretty awesome imagine to end on. 

That being said, I am super thrilled we get to see Gotham go totally crazy town next season, and they have time to wrap everything up. I especially want to know what Hugo Strange does with Lee and Ed, and whats going on with poor Selena. And, of course, I need to see Bruce, Jim, Harvey, and Lucius fighting through a Gotham filled to the brim with costumed psychopaths, with seemingly no hope to escape. 

Really, its amazing the government hasn't sent in people before to deal with Gotham, considering all the terrorist activity that happens on a bi-weekly basis.  And of course, the guy isnt really much help, as he doesn't really get how Gotham works like the GCPD does. I loved when they tried to arrest Jim again, and Harvey, followed by all the other cops, pulled their guns on the army guy to defend him. Nice moment to see that they really have Jim's back again. 

Lee and Ed are truly a match made in Gotham. Stabbing each other and then making out? Mad Love indeed. On the other hand, I am so sad that Butch is dead, after all of that! He and Tabby finally got together again damn it! Of course Penguin could never forget his moms death, but damn, he really played the long game on that one. No way is Tabby letting that go any time soon. 

All the villains doing their creepy thing, plus some new weirdos (Man-Bat! Creepy Gothic Doll Face People! Who knows who else!) plus Gotham basically turning into the Purge, and villains carving up territory for the heroes to fight their way through, was an awesome way to end the season. Dark and creepy and violent, but with a ray of hope at the end. God I am so ready for next season!

Edited by tennisgurl
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Revenge is a dish best served cold. And that was ice cold, Oswald. Over two years in the making. Kinda feel bad for Butch, don’t feel bad for Tabby. She did kill his mother, and did so rather gleefully, as I recall. She should have known this would come sooner or later.

Don’t know why it was what led Barbara to be all, “That’s it! Men suck!” I mean, what was going on when she shot and killed Butch? And what about her own greed and corruption? It’s not like she only commits crimes to help people. I don’t know. My gut reaction is I don’t like this turn. But I suppose it could be fun if they really camp it up. I did like the way Babs got rid of Ra’s. That was smart.

Didn’t care at all for Ed and Lee’s melodrama (but I’m usually put off by self-destructive relationships like this). At the end I was hoping Strange would just shove the two of them in a closet and call it a day. Bums me out because Ed used to be one of my favorite characters on this show, and now I am not really invested in what happens to him. And I just do not like Dark! Lee. Didn’t like her last season with the virus, don’t like her now. I was hoping she’d leave town and leave Ed and Jim to their bickering, but she was back to making decisions that make no sense to me. Injecting herself with the virus last season to “punish” herself made zero sense to me. Now she tells Ed she was offering him something real, but then stabs him because she knew that he was going to kill her sooner or later (which follows his history and echoes what Oswald has said about him, and Oswald is usually right about this stuff). Which...what? So what was it - a genuine offer to run off and be happy together? Or eliminating him before he eliminates her? Doing both makes zero sense. 

Also? Just handing people a pile of money rarely solves problems. Look at the people who win the lottery then find themselves up shit creek a few years later. What happens to the Narrows people when the cash runs out? Never mind the fact that people often find themselves in poverty due to things like addiction and mental illness, and a stack of 20s doesn’t solve that. Meh - another Lee decision that makes no sense to me (yeah, I know looking for realism in Gotham makes no sense, either. But here I am).

Poor Selina. I hope she finds a way to bounce back quickly. Interesting that Alfred went with her. Wondering if we’ll get stuff with the two of them next season before they return to Gotham.

I hope some of the new villains are interesting (someone on reddit posted some script pages, and it looks like the woman and child in the masks are Mother and Orphan). And good to know Jeremiah is still running around out there.

I hope we get more Lucius next season. He is a delight. We should get more as Bruce makes more serious moves to becoming Batman. He’ll need Lucius’s help.

Edited by Kostgard
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Season 4 overall was rather meh.  It started off pretty good, I found Oswald getting his revenge for his mother pretty gratifying.  But I can't say I cared for much of the rest of it.  No one really progressed in my view.  Maybe it was a byproduct of Season 3 moving things too quickly but in any case, there's a lot next season needs to achieve.  As for Bruce, I don't think he necessarily needs to become Batman but I do think we need at least a reason why he would want to dress up like a bat and him using gadgets, etc more and working with Lucius more,  Like I said in an earlier post, if the show can't use Batman maybe the show ends with him going away to train (and maybe IF there's a sequel show in a few years it can pick up with him returning to Gotham).

Every minute this show spends on whatever the heck they're doing with Barbara is a minute of wasted screentime.  I like her decently enough, but she does not need this much focus (when Selina was with her and Tabs it was still all about Barbara) and her feminist-sctick is so forced.  I can see Ivy on this show being that way (abusive father, treated poorly by Oswald, etc), but Barbara, I'm not buying it.  If anything she's the epitome of privilege (grew up wealthy, has had her own moments of power over others, etc).

I also recently heard already of a few characters that are gonna be added next season, just please no...

Edited by DR14

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8 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

So who were the new villains at the end? Man-Bat? What about creepy doll faces?

The Moth was the one with the wings I believe and I don't know about the Creepy Doll face ones

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The thing about the Lee and Riddler ending was that this could have been the series finale.  I have really liked their relationship.  I can’t really explain why except I like Lee’s dark turn.  I don’t mind Lee and Riddler killing each other.  It reminds me of the Domi and Cliff relationship on Syfy underrated  Bloodrive (don’t worry I think I am the only person who actually watched it).  What bothers me is the Doctor Strange ending.  I would have left them laying on the floor maybe in each other’s arms.   The Doctor Strange ending unless the writers were already expecting a new season if they were unsure it was an annoying loose thread.  Probably one of the few in the season finale.

But that is just me.

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Brilliant finale but it wouldn't have been right for it to have been a series finale. I did love the last scene with Bruce, Gordon and that proto Bat-signal.

Jeremiah wasn't used as much here as expected and that was fine. I did like the Lector esque scenes with him and Bruce and he's on the loose to cause trouble next season.

Barbara killing Ra's - fair enough, but ugh to the misandry fest of the Sirens. Tabitha will definitely not make it out of the series alive. Oswald revenge for his mother was cold but interesting to watch. Bye Butch.

Leslie and Nygma stabbing each other was twisted but I worry Strange is going to do something else along with reviving them.

Nice glimpses of ManBat and Mother/Orphan there, so can't wait for next season, 9/10

Edited by darkestboy
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Butch went through all of that just to die.  So, sad.

Hopefully Gordon will fill up with enough prunes during the break to clean himself out, and come back without the constipated voice for the final season.

I was okay with everything until Lee stabbed Ed, Ed stabbed Lee.  I like both characters.  Still, that scene was just awful.  it reeked of trying too hard. 

Barbara/Bruce killing Ra was all sorts of awesome.

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2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 Bloodrive (don’t worry I think I am the only person who actually watched it).

You are not alone, I also watched it.

Oswald killing Butch really surprised me. I love it when shows surprise me. I do not feel sorry for Butch or Tabitha.

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It is so lonely on this thread to give no shits about Oswald, Nygma, or Barbara.

With that said, I really enjoyed the finale and was smiling at the rooftop scene.

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1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

It is so lonely on this thread to give no shits about Oswald, Nygma, or Barbara.

With that said, I really enjoyed the finale and was smiling at the rooftop scene.

I definitely agree about Barbara. One of the worst TV characters ever.

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Great episode but Barbara's feminist character is making her worse than she originally was before. Anything that happens and especially bad.. men. Men, men, men.

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When Barbara first was revealed to be batshit, I adored her but have not enjoyed her rebirth (after Ra's resurrected her).

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Sweet interview with Drew Powell where he talks about his time on the show and how all the actors couldn’t stop crying when they shot his death scene.

I think they left the door open for a cameo next season if they want to do it. Who’s to say Oswald didn’t order him thrown back in the swamp, since he’s apparently calling the shots on all the dead bodies. He did seem to genuinely feel bad about Butch (but his need for revenge was stronger), so I could see him tossing Butch back in the swamp to let him cook for a few months and maybe he’ll pop up once more before the show is over.

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

When Barbara first was revealed to be batshit, I adored her but have not enjoyed her rebirth (after Ra's resurrected her).

I think I’m the same. Season three Barbara was my favorite, I think (before the last couple episodes of that season when she got power-hungry) and I’ve mostly enjoyed season four Barbara when she was acting more like season three Barbara (“Tootles, poodle”). Barbara is best when she’s fun. And unless they camp it up, her “Men suck!” phase doesn’t look fun.

 

ETA: I really wonder if they can keep the location from Oswald’s final scene - that definitely wasn’t a set and looked like it could be expensive to rent out.

Edited by Kostgard

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My first thought about feminist Barbara was, "@Kathemy will surely have something to say about this."

I admit, I did cringe at Barbara's turn because it's so cliched (among other things), but it is in character and, as @Kostgard said, if they camp it up it could work.

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20 hours ago, srpturtle80 said:

Butch! No!!  ???

I know!!!

48 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

My first thought about feminist Barbara was, "@Kathemy will surely have something to say about this

He certainly will!!!

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3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

My first thought about feminist Barbara was, "@Kathemy will surely have something to say about this."

I admit, I did cringe at Barbara's turn because it's so cliched (among other things), but it is in character and, as @Kostgard said, if they camp it up it could work.

Actually I have nothing. All is said. I don't know how to review it.

This finale was so many levels of nonsense. Feminazi Barbara was at least true to form. (I don't use that term lightly for obvious political reasons.) The plot cheated Bruce out completely. It cheated Selina out completely. There was good stuff here, though. Penguin. Lee and Riddler, cringeworthy insanity. 

God, I need help here. Considering to drop the show.

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BTW, didn't Butch and the Assassians go out like bitches or what? It's like they didn't understand that death would follow the ominous sentence. As soon as Barbara was ranting after hearing about Butch's death, Ra's' guys should've been, "Well, it's been fun. We gotta do secret ninja stuff and get out before this city burns to the ground."

They may has well have written "you dumb bitches pushed #MeToo too far!" across that banner. God, the very idea that this crazy shit actually represents feminism...

Barbara Keane has been yanked this way and that like a rag doll being fought over by slobbery-mouthed dogs for four seasons now; only Erin Richards' immense talents made her watchable through it all. But they've been totally gutting her actually becoming a threat by spinning her up, down, all around--ever since the R'as resurrection thing she's been at the mercy of whatever is ostensibly giving her power while actually constantly shoving her back to the starting gate.

This entire season has been her gang and ambitions set up as a mocking parody against the other villains' battles and struggles; they run to her for help or guns or whatever and then--she's back at the club. Even the whole Demon Head thing wasn't about her, it was about Bruce and R'as! Hell, even PENGUIN got to close an arc more effectively than Barbara! The closest another female character came to being powerful was Sophia and look how that turned out. Even Lee is being defined only by her relationship to Ed! 

Every single remaining female main character was brutally savaged by a male villain this week (or last for Selena), and instead of having Barbara actually point that out, they make sure she sounds as silly and shrill and dumb as possible with her declaration. You don't believe for one second that she actually represents female rage or grasping the reins of power. It's just her back at the club. Again.

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On 5/17/2018 at 8:00 PM, Last Time Lord said:

So, this episode was pretty much a giant PSA as to why falling in love in Gotham is a baaaaad idea.

More like falling in love WITH Gotham is a bad idea. Seriously, what is with this bizarre attachment every character has to this awful city? People get killed constantly in as over the top ways as possible and at complete random by the thousands daily for the amusement of a bunch of psychopaths with the police utterly unable actually to do anything to stop them. Any remotely decent people should have already left of their own free will and thus left us with the situation we're in at the end of this episode YEARS ago. I've said it before and I'll say it again Bruce and the GCPD should've just left with everybody else and then the military carpet bomb the whole city into rubble, then rebuild from that, problem solved.

On 5/17/2018 at 9:39 PM, Lantern7 said:

Poor Butch. Seriously, why go back to normal? Was he crushing stuff without trying? or did he just not like being chalky?

 

I was thinking the same thing throughout Butch's whole "cure me of being Grundy" storyline. Butch, you've got super strength, the durability of a tank, and if your hand is any indication the ability to regrow limbs, and all you have to deal with in exchange is white skin and hair you could easily cover up with makeup and hair dye, what the hell are you complaining about? There's a weird trend in fiction where people that happen to be superior to regular human beings in several if not every way with extremely minor if any downsides hate it due to wanting to be normal for no good reason. This is especially true in settings where being beyond normal human not only is pretty common but normal human beings end up dying in droves all the time because superpowered beings keep using them as playthings.

Edited by immortalfrieza
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immortalfrieza, I kept trying to pick out a part of your post to highlight but frankly gotta say AMEN to the whole thing. I don't know if Gotham has the entire populace hypnotized or what, but clearly it's an unhealthy place to be in every sense of the word! I get pride in your hometown and all, but things have honestly gone too far.  Remember when everybody was leaving during the Tetch virus thing? I was wondering what took them so long!

I was so busy ranting about Barbara's shoddy treatment I didn't get around to actually saying anything about the episode, which I found serviceable and well performed, if overstuffed. David continues to absolutely bring the evolution of Bruce Wayne into a reluctant knight, Jim Gordon has shaken off his dummy shackles to face his own caretaking destiny, TPTB finally remembered Penguin is a dangerous psychopath, etc. 

It was a fifteen ring circus there for most of the running time--when blowing up every bridge out of the city takes up about five seconds of actual notice you've got too much going on--but everybody seemed to be enjoying cutting loose! Even smaller stories like Lee and Ed were handled in a psychologically appropriate way: Lee really nailed it when she told Ed that she was bound to disappoint him in the end and he'd kill her, that "it's just what you do." And like far too many women who get killed trying to leave an abusive partner, Ed proved her right immediately. 

It was a joy seeing Dr. Strange again, too! B.D. Wong plays him so fabulously, from drawling creepy voice to "ah, done with this, exit stage left!" duck out the door when Butch and Tabby were reunited--he hasn't stayed alive this long by hanging around when his part's over. 

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I'm more confused than ever about Ra's and what he wanted with Barbara. In this episode, he called Bruce his heir again so why the hell did he give Barbara the Demon's Head before? 

The military brought Bruce and Alfred in in handcuffs? They are private citizens who are not wanted for any crimes - even in a town with martial law, would this be allowed? (I know I'm talking about Gotham here!) And THEN they forced the underaged Bruce into the room with Jeremiah without his guardian present even though the day before Jeremiah shot Bruce's girlfriend and tried to drive him insane?!

It's so weird how Alexander Siddig (who I think is great as Ra's) was part of the main cast this season even though he missed quite a large chunk of the season but Cameron Monaghan, who played two characters and I feel like he was in way more episodes and multiple episodes over the series, was only recurring. Maybe it's just due to contracts or something but it is weird. Also, Bruce killed Ra's AGAIN!?

It was great seeing Hugo Strange again.

So the bridges blew up? I don't see how that's a huge chaotic event. Unless I missed something and there are more bombs about to go off that has chased everyone away? 

Why is there always a stupid lone child standing somewhere that needs to be rescued?

Riddler and Lee stabbing each other and then kissing is EXACTLY how I thought their story would go!

What the hell was the point of the Grundy story? Penguin just shot Butch dead?! I mean I'm glad Penguin didn't get over Tabitha killing his mother but why Butch?!

Selina's spine was severed? I really don't see her becoming Oracle anytime soon so what's that about?

Bruce beating the shit out of a bunch of guys at the end was great! And it looked way more believable that Bruce was doing that than at the start of the season. I wonder if David Mazouz has been training or he's just gotten better at stunts.

And of course the spotlight!!! Seeing Bruce dressed all in black with a long coat go up onto the roof to meet with Jim beside the light - I have never been so happy! Also Bruce is way taller than Jim now and it's great.

That entire last scene from Bruce beating up the guys to meeting Jim on the roof made me think how freaking awesome an actual live action Batman series would be! But WB just won't let it happen! WHY???

Edited by superloislane
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8 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

I was thinking the same thing throughout Butch's whole "cure me of being Grundy" storyline. Butch, you've got super strength, the durability of a tank, and if your hand is any indication the ability to regrow limbs, and all you have to deal with in exchange is white skin and hair you could easily cover up with makeup and hair dye, what the hell are you complaining about? There's a weird trend in fiction where people that happen to be superior to regular human beings in several if not every way with extremely minor if any downsides hate it due to wanting to be normal for no good reason.

Butch wanted to be cured because Tabitha was grossed out by his Grundy bod. She was understandably bummed out when he clearly wasn’t Butch mentally anymore, but when he first found her after he got his mind back (like around episode 14 or 15, I think), she was still all “Ew” and so he promised to find a cure. Another reason why I don’t particularly feel sorry for Tabitha.

 

15 hours ago, Snookums said:

This entire season has been her gang and ambitions set up as a mocking parody against the other villains' battles and struggles; they run to her for help or guns or whatever and then--she's back at the club. Even the whole Demon Head thing wasn't about her, it was about Bruce and R'as! Hell, even PENGUIN got to close an arc more effectively than Barbara! The closest another female character came to being powerful was Sophia and look how that turned out. Even Lee is being defined only by her relationship to Ed! 

Every single remaining female main character was brutally savaged by a male villain this week (or last for Selena), and instead of having Barbara actually point that out, they make sure she sounds as silly and shrill and dumb as possible with her declaration. You don't believe for one second that she actually represents female rage or grasping the reins of power. It's just her back at the club. Again.

Yes to all this. They sometimes come close to getting things right by the female characters, but they never quite make it and then go zooming off in the wrong direction or they just don’t know what to do with it so they just end it.

Sofia was pretty well-written in the first half of the season (and why I feel 4a was stronger than 4b despite some good stuff with Jerome/Jeremiah). But then they just abruptly ended her storyline so they could clear the path for the Joker stuff. Lee might have been interesting as the doctor in the Narrows trying to do penance (but was also smart and tough and the gangsters learned not to mess with her) but then it all became about her getting a thrill out of being bad and her relationship with Ed. Babs had nothing but starts and stops and nonsensical Demon’s Head stuff to finally this “Ban men!” stuff. They’ve never really given her a nice solid run at things. Selina has had it best, but things got murky even for her starting last season, and nearly everything fizzled out this season. She started out wanting to be taking seriously as a criminal and taking steps toward that, then got sidetracked into being a Siren, then took a turn for the good and got away from the Sirens, then she got sidelined for the finale.

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4 hours ago, Kostgard said:

Butch wanted to be cured because Tabitha was grossed out by his Grundy bod. She was understandably bummed out when he clearly wasn’t Butch mentally anymore, but when he first found her after he got his mind back (like around episode 14 or 15, I think), she was still all “Ew” and so he promised to find a cure. Another reason why I don’t particularly feel sorry for Tabitha.

 

Well really, she was all "ew" due to his being cold as a corpse and probably bummed to since no heart beat would mean he couldnt get it up either so basically, Butch wanted to be cured and returned to warm blooded life.

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22 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

More like falling in love WITH Gotham is a bad idea. Seriously, what is with this bizarre attachment every character has to this awful city? People get killed constantly in as over the top ways as possible and at complete random by the thousands daily for the amusement of a bunch of psychopaths with the police utterly unable actually to do anything to stop them. Any remotely decent people should have already left of their own free will and thus left us with the situation we're in at the end of this episode YEARS ago. I've said it before and I'll say it again Bruce and the GCPD should've just left with everybody else and then the military carpet bomb the whole city into rubble, then rebuild from that, problem solved.

I was thinking the same thing throughout Butch's whole "cure me of being Grundy" storyline. Butch, you've got super strength, the durability of a tank, and if your hand is any indication the ability to regrow limbs, and all you have to deal with in exchange is white skin and hair you could easily cover up with makeup and hair dye, what the hell are you complaining about? There's a weird trend in fiction where people that happen to be superior to regular human beings in several if not every way with extremely minor if any downsides hate it due to wanting to be normal for no good reason. This is especially true in settings where being beyond normal human not only is pretty common but normal human beings end up dying in droves all the time because superpowered beings keep using them as playthings.

The only reason seems to be that, despite her proclamations of love and efforts to get Butch's memories back, Tabby actually rejected him when he did get those memories back. Because... he's pale, I guess? He developed a different fashion sense? He may or may not smell funny?(Barbara is the only character that ever alluded to that, and she obviously hates him. Ed, Oswald, not anyone else ever suggested such a thing, and they're not the types that would worry about hurting his feelings). That's one of the reasons I have zero sympathy for Tabby. She's a horrible remorseless killer, she's running around w/ Barbara, who killed Butch, and she rejected him when he got his mind back. Hell, it appears they killed three innocent people to restore Butch, fuck all of them.

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9 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Well really, she was all "ew" due to his being cold as a corpse and probably bummed to since no heart beat would mean he couldnt get it up either so basically, Butch wanted to be cured and returned to warm blooded life.

That's one hell of an assumption to make. Considering that no heartbeat is a pretty reliable indicator that someone is dead, and that obviously isn't the case w/ Butch, assuming that any of his body works within normal parameters is silly. Did Tabitha even know he didn't have a heartbeat at that point, anyway?

 

Besides, Tabby seems to be fine with living without that, and Butch could get the job done with other options.

Edited by moonshine71

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Here’s the Butch/Tabitha scene after he gets his memory back.

It struck me as weird at the time because she didn’t seem to worry about his appearance when she was trying to beat him back into being Butch. But here he says “I’m a monster” and she makes no moves or say anything to make him feel better. Then he tells her that he’s there because he still loves her, and she’s just kinda like, “Yeah...no.” Again, nothing to comfort or an effort to connect with him, no “Come with me, we’ll figure out how to help you,” just sort of an unspoken “This isn’t happening because you’re a swamp zombie.” It’s really kind of sad for Butch, who has always been crazy about her and if their positions were reversed, he totally would have accepted swamp zombie Tabby.

Most of the villains on this show are looking for love and acceptance. It’s obvious with Oswald, because he wears it on his sleeve, but we also see it in Babs (who sobbed to Ra’s “everybody hates me” when she was revived), Oswald taunted Sofia with the fact that her father didn’t see her/accept her as she was, and Ed and Lee’s whole dance was about being loved and accepted for who they really are. Butch never really got the unconditional love from Tabs that he gave to her, and that’s sad for him and I don’t think all that tragic for her because she would only accept one version of Butch.

Edited by Kostgard
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On 18/05/2018 at 8:26 PM, Kathemy said:

God, I need help here. Considering to drop the show.

If nothing else, know that you only have 13 more episodes of the show to go. You've made it this far and you're so close to the end...why not see it through?

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On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 9:46 PM, Kathemy said:

Dear friends,

Jerry.jpg

https://www.douxreviews.com/2018/08/gotham-no-mans-land.html

This is me, in all likelihood, saying goodbye to my vocation as a Gotham reviewer. It's been fun, but less so over the last two years. I may return for some special features if the show miraculously decides to tick up.

Hugs'n'kisses.

You'll be back, how could you resist the final score?

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:11 AM, Chaos Theory said:

i really enjoyed Barbara’s storyline and how she figured out how to kill Ra.  And is it wrong that I kind of dig her “No men” thing?

 

Yes it is, because she and Tabby aren't exactly Mother Theresa types! Although they do love Selina. 

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:34 AM, srpturtle80 said:

Butch! No!!  ???

Just what I said!

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:54 AM, Last Time Lord said:

One appears to be the kid Penguin had an affinity for early in the season. The one Zsasz lied about knowing the location of during the Sophia arc. 

But I missed a big chunk of the season so that’s pure speculation on my part

Ohhhhh, never thought of that! Could that be Ivy behind the mask?

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On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 6:01 AM, tennisgurl said:

 

Really, its amazing the government hasn't sent in people before to deal with Gotham, considering all the terrorist activity that happens on a bi-weekly basis.  And of course, the guy isnt really much help, as he doesn't really get how Gotham works like the GCPD does. I loved when they tried to arrest Jim again, and Harvey, followed by all the other cops, pulled their guns on the army guy to defend him. Nice moment to see that they really have Jim's back again. 

 

I'm rather reminded of the famous 70s headline 'Gerald Ford Tells New York to Drop Dead'

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:32 PM, immortalfrieza said:

More like falling in love WITH Gotham is a bad idea. Seriously, what is with this bizarre attachment every character has to this awful city? People get killed constantly in as over the top ways as possible and at complete random by the thousands daily for the amusement of a bunch of psychopaths with the police utterly unable actually to do anything to stop them. Any remotely decent people should have already left of their own free will and thus left us with the situation we're in at the end of this episode YEARS ago. I've said it before and I'll say it again Bruce and the GCPD should've just left with everybody else and then the military carpet bomb the whole city into rubble, then rebuild from that, problem solved.

I was thinking the same thing throughout Butch's whole "cure me of being Grundy" storyline. Butch, you've got super strength, the durability of a tank, and if your hand is any indication the ability to regrow limbs, and all you have to deal with in exchange is white skin and hair you could easily cover up with makeup and hair dye, what the hell are you complaining about? There's a weird trend in fiction where people that happen to be superior to regular human beings in several if not every way with extremely minor if any downsides hate it due to wanting to be normal for no good reason. This is especially true in settings where being beyond normal human not only is pretty common but normal human beings end up dying in droves all the time because superpowered beings keep using them as playthings.

He didn't have a heartbeat! And he could never know the love of Tabby as he was even with the beauty and the beast thing they've got going. 

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On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 6:55 PM, superloislane said:

I'm more confused than ever about Ra's and what he wanted with Barbara. In this episode, he called Bruce his heir again so why the hell did he give Barbara the Demon's Head before? 

The military brought Bruce and Alfred in in handcuffs? They are private citizens who are not wanted for any crimes - even in a town with martial law, would this be allowed? (I know I'm talking about Gotham here!) And THEN they forced the underaged Bruce into the room with Jeremiah without his guardian present even though the day before Jeremiah shot Bruce's girlfriend and tried to drive him insane?!

 

Given the circumstances, yep! Just be glad they didn't waterboard them. 

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1.  I like the fact Butch cares for Selina, he's actually a pretty big hearted guy in some ways (you just hope Strange didn't drain his 'donors' entirely). Odd to see her so vulnerable when she's normally so tough, you just want to hug her. 

2.  The press struck me as a very Adam West Batman device, you half expected the narrator to say 'Tune in next week, same Bat time, same Bat Channel'. 

3. GCPD have now given up all pretence of proper procedure and now firmly believe in beating suspects just for the hell of it, even Jim, they should name some of their officers Koon, Powell, Salano as an in-joke. Equally Harvey wonders what we all do, why didn't Alfred just give Jerimiah one between the eyes?

4. They only send a Major to enforce martial law? So he only has a company to do it?

5. Possibly this is the ep with the most characters ever, certainly in terms of villains. But where is Ivy? Or Tetch? 

6.  Ed and Lee was a shocker but she called it right. 

7. Okay, Barbara's feminist rage is truly misandrist and hypocritical, what next, is she going to become the head of the GCPD's SVU? This might be an interesting storyline next season, help the series explore the whole #MeToo hysteria and its' backlash, I can see her going the whole hog and Tabs going 'Bitch-be-crazy!'. 

8.  Like how Babs calls Jerimiah a freak although for a moment you think it's Bruce she's talking to. 

9. Oh no, BUTCH! I liked the big lug, Oz's speech makes perfect sense though, he wouldn't forget his mother and nor should he, too bad he had to kill his friend to do so. Would be happy enough if we see no more Bashir though, he's outstayed his welcome. 

10. Clever little scene where Penguin's goon tells Strange "Fix'em" and for a second you think he said 'Fix Him' and it's Butch but then we see Lee and Ed.

11. So Gotham has now essentially been reduced to Beirut in the 80s? Does that make the GCPD one more gang? And can Bruce get back to the manor? 

12. When does the last season begin because I can't wait! Bring in Burt Ward and have him play the governor/President. 

Edited by Joe Hellandback

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Another classic comic storyline (No Man's Land - or Dark Knight Rises, that used that storyline). Which I'm fine with - they didn't try to pretend it wasn't, given that's the title of the episode. Though I'd've been annoyed if I didn't know this plotline won't be left hanging thanks to cancellation.

So are we going to have Selina magically cured or is she just going to be lucky? I guess they could pull a "Gotcha!" and have Selina not become Catwoman, but I'm guessing she won't take Barbara Kane's role and become Oracle.

Loved Babs using Bruce to kill R'as. Sneaky, but it was one of Babs' few good moments. She's been terribly (and inconsistently) written throughout the show.

Man, Penguin is COLD (no pun intended). That was some pretty epic, long term revenge (Edmund Dantes would be impressed!)Loved his "You're welcome to try (to kill me)!" to Tabs after killing Butch. Then again, Butch has died before,  so who knows if he'll stay dead?

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, Snookums said:

The closest another female character came to being powerful was Sophia and look how that turned out.

Hey, you've had two and a half strong women on the show (Selina, Fish and Sofia) what more do you want!? Though that makes me wonder - what happened to Sofia? Was she evacuated like Selina? Pretty sure she's still in a coma somewhere, but from being a major player she's completely fallen out of the story.

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:32 PM, immortalfrieza said:

I was thinking the same thing throughout Butch's whole "cure me of being Grundy" storyline. Butch, you've got super strength, the durability of a tank, and if your hand is any indication the ability to regrow limbs, and all you have to deal with in exchange is white skin and hair you could easily cover up with makeup and hair dye, what the hell are you complaining about?

Particularly as Tabs seemed happy he was alive and still fairly affectionate toward Grundy. OK, he doesn't have a heartbeat, so maybe he doesn't have any blood flowing around... certain parts, but that way leads to the whole, "If he doesn't have a heartbeat, how can his body function at all?" and that way madness lies!

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 6:55 PM, superloislane said:

Why is there always a stupid lone child standing somewhere that needs to be rescued?

How else will our square jawed hero get to prove their white knight status!? They might at least have made her injured so she couldn't get away instead of just, "I'm standing here because I need rescuing!"

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On ‎06‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 8:40 PM, John Potts said:

 

Particularly as Tabs seemed happy he was alive and still fairly affectionate toward Grundy. OK, he doesn't have a heartbeat, so maybe he doesn't have any blood flowing around... certain parts, but that way leads to the whole, "If he doesn't have a heartbeat, how can his body function at all?" and that way madness lies!

Anyone want to bet Tabs uses the chemicals to try to bring back Butch but he comes back purely as Grundy?

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