S07.E08: Lies, Amplifiers, and Fucking Twitter

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Carrie and Saul interrogate a suspect; Wellington makes a play.

Promo:

Clip:

[Joan van Snark]

This season really started slowly but it sure has gotten exciting!  Come to think of it the Pakistan and German seasons were kind of like that too.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

The board had Dante’s DOB as 10/4/80, which is the actor’s actual birthday. 

Also, WTF Carrie and Saul?!

[chocolatine]

Is Paley colluding with the Russians? He tried to get Keane to resign - loved her response to that, BTW - and then showed up at Simone's safe house the day before she was supposed to testify in front of Congress. Surely that must be against the law?

48 minutes ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

Also, WTF Carrie and Saul?!

Right?! And the saddest part is, if Dante dies, they're going to get away with it. Other than his ex-wife, I doubt anyone will care or question what happened to him. That would be the ultimate irony after Kabul.

At least Carrie did one good thing by leaving Frannie with Maggie.

[Ottis]

I am not into this season. A vague threat to Keane, just because, who is a president who is hard to like. And Franny. With lots of bu mbling. Not very inte resting. 

[tjcletzgo]

Me too!  I;m done with this show.  Does anyone give a fig about President Keane?  Not me!

[Joan van Snark]

I don't particularly care all that much for her either and i don't think Saul and Carrie are doing this for her.  A foreign country is trying to subvert our government!  It's not about Keane.  

I hope we don't see Frannie for several episodes at least.  I mean that's pretty cold of the sister if she actually goes through with that threat

Edited April 2, 2018 by Joan van Snark

[Joimiaroxeu]

Carrie is loathsome, IMO. She should not put the burden of keeping secret her horrific home life on her innocent child. If Frannie's forced to keep all that nightmare stuff she's witnessed in her head she's probably going to develop some real emotional problems, starting with PTSD. It's fortunate she has someone she can trust that she can talk to.

How much of a rube is the senator? You'd think he'd know that a spy might well be trained to cry on command.

So is Wellington a double agent working against Keane? It's hard to imagine how he could be so naive. Doesn't seem like he's with the Russians though.

[scrb]

Carrie rationalized it as, "its not good for Frannie to be around me right now" and "I just can't step away from this."

Saul could have shut her out.

After expressing disgust at her being caught in the act, Saul now let's her in on the operation?

Not only lets her in but practically run it now.

Damn enabler!

Edited April 2, 2018 by scrb

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[dwmarch]

5 hours ago, Joan van Snark said:

I mean that's pretty cold of the sister if she actually goes through with that threat

There's a certain symmetry to it though. Carrie is so committed to her job that she'll place Frannie in all kinds of danger. Carrie's sister (Maggie, whose name I only remember because my mind loves to absorb trivia and not because of any actual impact the character makes) decides okay, if you're all about your job I'll be all about mine and fulfill my obligation as a medical professional to report your neglect. And for what it's worth Maggie didn't go through with it yet even though she very well could have. This is the second time Frannie has been there when armed commandos have kicked down the door so I am sure Maggie could have gotten the appropriate child welfare authorities involved with a single phone call. Carrie knows this and what does she do? She walks away. She bangs on her steering wheel for a couple of seconds, swears once or twice and gets right back to work. Now that's cold!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The question that should always be asked is "What is in the best interest of the child?"

It was not in Franny's best interest to drag her to a motel (which Carrie couldn't even afford to pay for).

It was not in Franny's best interest for Carrie to take her to the home of a person she suspected that at best was being dishonest with her and at worst was spying for the Russians so that mommy could rifle through this things in the hopes of finding proof of his treachery.

It was not in Franny's best interest to then return to his home once she spoke to his ex and KNEW that he had lied about some pretty big things (claiming his ex was bipolar, lying about being an alcoholic, not mentioning that he was obsessed with Carrie and resented her after Kabul).

It has not been in Franny's best interest to be in Carrie's car ever since Carrie found out that her meds weren't working anymore, and Carrie has been choosing to function this way, ignoring the doctor's advice to take the drugs that would temporarily knock her out and instead taking drugs that she bought in a parking lot.

The only thing that Carrie has done in Franny's best interest this season was leaving her at Maggie's in this episode.

Just because you love your child (and I have no doubt that Carrie loves Franny) doesn't mean that you make good choices or that you're a good parent. Carrie seemed to be doing well with Franny when they were in Germany but now that she has Maggie as a full time care giver to feed, clothe, bathe, dress, and pick up Franny, Carrie is taking almost no responsibility for taking care of Franny. Maggie is correct - Franny deserves to feel safe and cared for and paid attention to. She isn't getting any of that from Carrie right now.

Edited April 2, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Bannon]

I continue to fast forward through any scene depicting Carrie's domestic life. Unfortunately, they often reference her domestic like in scenes pertaining to her professional life. The writers made a terrible mistake in having her become a mother.

Interesting elements in this episode. I have little doubt that people in the intelligence community would abuse a person in custody, in order to obtain a search warrant, no doubt lying in the warrant application in the process. Poisoning Dante, of course, really closes off the chance of prosecuting him, if it is revealed, and his hospitalization makes it being revealed very, very, likely. I don't think confessions made while the accused is made terrified by a poisoning are likely admissable in a trial. If he hadn't been hospitalized, simply denying that the poisoning occurred would have been feasible; destruction of video evidence has been known to occur, and evidence of a confession based merely on the testimony of the person supposedly hearing the confession has been admissable.

Kind of a minor quibble; grabbing up Simone would likely be even easier than depicted. Congress does not have access to the Marshals Service, for purposes of witness protection. It is part of the reason why Congress is so poorly suited to conduct investigations, especially of the Executive Branch. The Executive Branch actually controls all bureaucracies that perform investigations.

[mrspidey]

Yeah, Carrie did the right thing here. As long as she can't stop with the spy stuff (and we know she can't because this is who she is), Frannie is better off with Maggie as her legal guardian. I mean, it's not like Carrie wouldn't be able to see her anytime she wanted. This is the best possible compromise.

[attica]

Franny is better off with Maggie, because it gets and keeps her out of my spy plotlines. Which, tbh, is all that's important to me. :)

I enjoyed Max's expression of guilt/defiance when Carrie showed up at the "research center." I laughed off my couch when I saw the Wall of (not so) Crazy in the main room. Everybody has absorbed Carrie's process!

Lesson for the day: pols, please stay in your own lanes. Don't be getting into the spy stuff; you're out of your league, and you just don't know what you don't know. I hasten to add that it's not like the spies are any better at it, but at least they know where the fallout is going to come down.

[Ottis]

11 hours ago, Joan van Snark said:

I don't particularly care all that much for her either and i don't think Saul and Carrie are doing this for her.  A foreign country is trying to subvert our government!  It's not about Keane.

As a viewer, it is, IMO. Why should we care that Keane resign? What has she done, what traits has she shown, that makes viewers feel she needs to remain president? The show needs to give us something besides a general principle that we oppose foreign governments meddling in our elections. Otherwise, all the drama with Keane and those who want her to resign is hollow and a waste of valuable show time. I don't even know what it would show Russia accomplished if she resigns. They played a role in toppling someone who seems to be an unpopular or at least controversial president? OK, I guess.

So we have the main story, which is less than compelling. Then the subplots of Franny and Carrie's meds/no meds, neither of which are interesting. Remember when there was an imminent threat to innocent people or the US and Carrie had to help stop it while also staying clandestine? Man, I miss that.

[CoachWristletJen]

Carrie shows consistently bad judgment as far as her daughter is concerned. How could she think that taking her to school after suffering a trauma was a good idea? SMH

I get that she's saving the country and all, but she's still doing all of this work and not getting paid.

Edited April 2, 2018 by CoachWristletJen

[Sentient Meat]

I agree on a practical level that what she's doing to Franny is terribly irresponsible, but on an emotional level... assuming no one gets killed or permanently maimed along the way, when she's an adult Franny will probably appreciate how much her mother loved her, and be moved at the level of Carrie's dedication to try and do both things.  Remember, she went through the phase of acting like her daughter didn't exist, and now that she's built a bond with her and in a chaotic state of mind, she's gone too far in the opposite direction. 

I remember years ago, asking some friends if they had to choose between saving their child's life and the rest of humanity... who would you save?  I was surprised by how a few were so ego centric that they would choose their child over the rest of the world.  Let alone the sheer psychic and emotional damage you would cause the child by forcing them to grow up in a hopeless world with no people, knowing that your parent killed everyone...  isn't that just pure selfishness?  Every time someone signs up for public service, they are not only risking themselves but the well being of their family... if not in the extreme case of people trying to directly kill your family as revenge, but simply by inflicting the constant worry that one day they might pick up the phone and discover you are dead.  Whether it's as a soldier or spy, this is the type of sacrifice these people make... and putting aside politics which have put us in some very questionable wars... most of the time it is a very honorable thing.  I think this is part of what the writers are exploring, the cost of trying to do the right thing.

Sure it would be great if Carrie had a loving house husband who could protect Franny while she's saving the world... but she doesn't so improvising and exploiting the good will of her sister's family is the only play she has.  It's not a tale about irresponsibility but about impossible choices imo.

[slowpoked]

I normally don't care about Carrie's family problems, and I do agree with most of you that Carrie getting pregnant was a huge writing error, but the most gut-wrenching line last night was Maggie's "How are you even hesitating about this?", between the choice of Carrie admitting herself to the hospital to get better vs. Maggie filing for legal custody. Yes, there's a matter of national security at hand, but I can understand Maggie's annoyance about Carrie not putting in Franny first when she has consistently put her in danger. It's a tough choice - I have no doubt Carrie only wants the best for Franny, as does her sister, but the only loser in this battle is Franny, until she gets that stable, relatively peaceful family home.

Also joining in on the chorus of WTF Saul?! As much as it was nice to see them team up together, Carrie is no longer a government employee, or even an employee of any kind. How can he let her run the table, letting her act as if she was his second in command like the good old days?

Did not see Simone being romantically involved with Yevgeny. I thought she was a goner for sure once the Russians got to her. 

[Quark]

24 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

Did not see Simone being romantically involved with Yevgeny. I thought she was a goner for sure once the Russians got to her. 

The second I saw Simone running with those Russians, the first thought that entered my mind was that she was romantically involved with Yevgeny, otherwise they would have just killed her then and there.

Decent episode.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Quark

[Nic330]

I missed what Dante said as he was passing out.. so was he working with Simone? 

[Bannon]

47 minutes ago, Nic330 said:

I missed what Dante said as he was passing out.. so was he working with Simone? 

Yes, he said Simone told him that the General had been poisoned, thus his panic that he was going to suffer the same fate.

[Pallas]

14 minutes ago, Nic330 said:

I missed what Dante said as he was passing out.. so was he working with Simone? 

"Simone told me..."

No, I still think Dante has been working Simone, as a means to get back in on the inside (as Carrie astutely pointed out, through tears of empathy). Simone told him because while she had been playing Wellington, Dante has been playing her. As they each pursued their goals, Carrie and Dante have been lying to each other even more than they've been working together. But the goals were one and the same. Stop the attempted Russian coup; validate my own existence. Carrie, Saul and Dante will discover that the other two are all they have to resist the forces trying to overthrow the President.

These forces include Wellington, who tipped off the Russians that they needed to get to Simone, before Saul had time to arrest her. He's not working for the Russians directly -- or he'd have gone straight to his contact, rather than summon the Ambassador, and trust his luck at getting the word out, through him. So there seems to be at least two plots against Keane, one domestic and one foreign. We don't know what drives him yet. 

3 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

It's not a tale about irresponsibility but about impossible choices imo.

When Carrie gave birth to Franny, she left the CIA. Since then she has worked for the During Foundation, and been pressed into saving Berlin; worked for the NYC justice-in-criminal-justice agency, and found herself pursuing leads that thwarted a coup and saved the President-elect. (Note: Carrie stood down from investigating Adal's scheme when he directly threatened Franny. The plot required that she leave Franny in the house with Quinn when it was about to be attacked by goons, rather than having any other plan. And she started this season having been fired by Wellington from a job where she was out of the front lines, yet overseeing intelligence operations.

From all this it's entirely clear that there is no job on earth that can keep Carrie out of (placing Franny in) harm's way. Or, that Carrie needs a job such as the one she held so recently: on top of the field, not in it. And she and her family need to come up with a strategy for Franny's care when Carrie is saving democracy.

I agree that show is a tale about impossible choices. It always has been. It's about the cost to the warriors, of our perpetual war: on Brody and Brody's family; on Saul and MIra; on Quinn and even Adal; on Carrie and her family. It's about the fractures, the madness, and the anguish in our polarized, bi-polar country. That's why it isn't called HOMELAND SECURITY; it's called HOMELAND.

[WaltersHair]

So Dante was a bad guy after all?  Poor Agent Bedroom Eyes if he is (still hope he isn't).  And Carrie acting all shocked that's he's about to die. She seems to have a deleterious affect on her men. Even Saul.

Carrie chose her country over her child. Very clear that she will always do that, so the sister taking custody is okay by me. Carrie has been treating Frannie like an emotional service animal instead of child.

I don't like Keane either, but I've always been in it for the Saul/Carrie/Max interactions (and Quinn RIP). Besides, they've dressed her like my 4th grade English teacher which terrifies me on many levels. I agree with those above. Give me a reason to root for her, but don't make it choice between her and the team. Like Carrie, I'll go with the team every time.

Just realized that the crazy TV guy has been MIA for a couple of episodes.  Missed him not at all.

Edited April 3, 2018 by WaltersHair

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

...the forces trying to overthrow the President...include Wellington, who tipped off the Russians that they needed to get to Simone, before Saul had time to arrest her.

Loved the post, but as for this part: I can see where this could be what's going on, but what's the evidence that Welllington wasn't sincerely attempting to protect the president with a backup plan, and simply made the mistake of not psychically predicting that Saul would succeed on his end? My read was not that Wellington wanted the Russians to abduct (or kill) Simone, rather to get word to her that she must reneg on her agreement to testify. But we'll see.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Misstify]

At first, I thought Carrie, Saul, and the fake lawyer had contrived to give Dante something relatively harmless, while inking up his hands, to make him think he'd been poisoned like General McClendon.  But apparently they really poisoned him?  That seems...kind of insane.  

[Son of Saul]

Saul used to be hardcore.

Now they are turning him into a self-doubting softcock.

It started in the siege when he got all upset and said sorry when it went pear-shaped.

It followed last week when they were going to burst in on Carrie he got all misty-eyed and said, "I told her to stay away".

Then this week he was a shattered mess again. 

Not liking the new "vulnerable" Saul at all. 

PS. The "poisoning" of Dante was ridiculous. As if they would even risk killing him. Surely they have some poison that makes him feel like he is about to keel over rather than that black-finger death powder. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Son of Saul

[Son of Saul]

18 hours ago, dwmarch said:

There's a certain symmetry to it though. Carrie is so committed to her job that she'll place Frannie in all kinds of danger. Carrie's sister (Maggie, whose name I only remember because my mind loves to absorb trivia and not because of any actual impact the character makes) decides okay, if you're all about your job I'll be all about mine and fulfill my obligation as a medical professional to report your neglect. And for what it's worth Maggie didn't go through with it yet even though she very well could have. This is the second time Frannie has been there when armed commandos have kicked down the door so I am sure Maggie could have gotten the appropriate child welfare authorities involved with a single phone call. Carrie knows this and what does she do? She walks away. She bangs on her steering wheel for a couple of seconds, swears once or twice and gets right back to work. Now that's cold!

Is that what happened? I have taken the advice of others in here and now automatically fast-forward Domestic Carrie. It's tedious and adds nothing to the story.

[ruby24]

What the hell was the point of the entire O'Keefe storyline from the first what, five episodes? They spent way too much time on that and now it's just disappeared. I mean, thankfully, but I wonder if the writers realized halfway through the season that the whole thing sucked.

Keane is a terrible president. It's unrealistic that she gets over the fact that her chief of staff ordered airstrikes himself, and then insists that he NOT resign after he admits he was played by a Russian agent for four years. And now his mistake loses them the agent again. She wants the worst person who makes the wrong decision at every single turn around her at all times.

Edited April 3, 2018 by ruby24

[Norma Desmond]

I'm used to Carrie being amoral and using despicable methods, but wow. Saul is now every bit as despicable as Carrie, wtf. Not long ago he used to be the moral compass of the show. Guess not anymore. How can they criticise the russians when they act the same way and use the same methods.

 

I used to love and hate-watch Homeland at the same time. Now I'll only be hate-watching.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Norma Desmond

[healthnut]

12 hours ago, Pallas said:

When Carrie gave birth to Franny, she left the CIA

Actually, when she worked as station chief in Kabul in S4, Frannie lived with Maggie. 

23 hours ago, Bannon said:

The writers made a terrible mistake in having her become a mother

Agreed. Having Maggie get full custody would be the best way to keep Frannie from dragging down the story. Especially, if Carrie is never going to have a real job. 

I can’t believe Saul went along with Carrie's ridiculous plan. 

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

What the hell was the point of the entire O'Keefe storyline from the first what, five episodes? They spent way too much time on that and now it's just disappeared.

My mind went to that question also as I watched this episode, but I came up with an answer that satisfied me enough. Namely, the O'Keefe subplot was what introduced us to Yevgeny and the revelation that the Russians have been stirring up our domestic politics.

[The Bullpen]

9 hours ago, Son of Saul said:

Saul used to be hardcore.

Now they are turning him into a self-doubting softcock.

It started in the siege when he got all upset and said sorry when it went pear-shaped.

It followed last week when they were going to burst in on Carrie he got all misty-eyed and said, "I told her to stay away".

Then this week he was a shattered mess again. 

Not liking the new "vulnerable" Saul at all. 

I had the exact opposite reaction to the scene outside Dante's apartment.  Saul said "I told her to stay away," meaning he had done all he could to keep her safe, and then he gave the o.k. for the guys to go in and apprehend Dante.  He was willing to risk Carrie (and Franny) being harmed in the process.  That's not hardcore?  

I will say that this week, Saul caving in and letting Carrie run the show, as others have pointed out, is a bit sigh-inducing.  I'll also add that over the course of the show's history, Saul has been portrayed as really incompetent an alarming number of times.  I love him, I think he's really smart, but for an awesome, really smart dude, he makes a ton of mistakes.  I don't think he's been truly "hardcore" in a long time, if ever.

[Mindthinkr]

I knew the minute I saw the lawyer leave the pen on the desk that it had delivered a poison to Dante. Dante should have noticed this and asked for help sooner. 

[TVbitch]

That rather lame interrogation reminded me of when we first met Quinn and he stuck a knife in some guys hand (or something like that, I don't entirely recall), but it was pretty badass. *sigh*

Also, not enough Max. 

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I knew the minute I saw the lawyer leave the pen on the desk that it had delivered a poison to Dante. Dante should have noticed this and asked for help sooner. 

Yes, and I'm amazed he didn't say he'd wait for his own lawyer, however long. I felt that the show's never before so clearly shown its roots, not like that. The 24-like, "But we're running out of time!" as all the Constitutional law our heroes need to reluctantly assent to the need for extreme measures. 

It also made little sense for Saul and Carrie to poison Dante in the hope that he'd catch on and reveal, "I've been poisoned!"  ("How do you know?") ("How do you think?") Because, they thought, Dante would not only realize that the poison killing him had to be the same one that killed General McClendon? -- which, by the way: great guess, Saul and Carrie!  -- but also, 'fess up to knowing that, and how?  

Watching, I thought that as Dante writhed, he desperately decided to give Carrie and Saul what they wanted. In order to get her to stop asking questions and start doing compressions. 

[Son of Saul]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, and I'm amazed he didn't say he'd wait for his own lawyer, however long. I felt that the show's never before so clearly shown its roots, not like that. The 24-like, "But we're running out of time!" as all the Constitutional law our heroes need to reluctantly assent to the need for extreme measures. 

It also made little sense for Saul and Carrie to poison Dante in the hope that he'd catch on and reveal, "I've been poisoned!"  ("How do you know?") ("How do you think?") Because, they thought, Dante would not only realize that the poison killing him had to be the same one that killed General McClendon? -- which, by the way: great guess, Saul and Carrie!  -- but also, 'fess up to knowing that, and how?  

Watching, I thought that as Dante writhed, he desperately decided to give Carrie and Saul what they wanted. In order to get her to stop asking questions and start doing compressions. 

That first point is a great one and showed really lazy and lame writing. As if someone like him wouldn't have a lawyer he can call on in that situation. Instead, conveniently, like some 17yo drug dealer he asks for any lawyer and they can pony up their guy. It defies belief that someone so well connected (and facing such serious allegations) would go for the next cab off the rank ambulance chaser. I thought that at the time and you have reminded me of it. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, Son of Saul said:

That first point is a great one and showed really lazy and lame writing. As if someone like him wouldn't have a lawyer he can call on in that situation. Instead, conveniently, like some 17yo drug dealer he asks for any lawyer and they can pony up their guy. It defies belief that someone so well connected (and facing such serious allegations) would go for the next cab off the rank ambulance chaser. I thought that at the time and you have reminded me of it. 

The lawyer who showed up said that he was from the office of Dante's lawyer. When Dante asked where his lawyer was, the guy said that Dante's regular lawyer had sent him because the regular lawyer had to go to New York.

Patrick: Didn't Joe Toibin tell you not to talk to anyone?
Dante: I'm not an idiot. I didn't say anything. Where's Joe?
Patrick: He got called to New York this morning. Said it was urgent. I'm subbing in. [I'm] Pat Steyer.
Dante: Just get me out of here. This whole thing's a farce.
Patrick: Yeah, Joe filled me in on everything that you told him. I drew up a motion demanding your immediate release.

[Pike Ludwell]

So, if Dante dies the evidence against Simone is gone, and that plan fails. But, at the same time, Wellington's plan works - the Russians got her to stop her from testifying! So she is no problem anyhow, even if Dante dies. Right? The problem seems solved thanks to the backup plan of the administration's ultimatum to Russia. So why is Saul so worried still? I think I missed something.

Edited April 4, 2018 by riverclown

[slowpoked]

18 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes, and I'm amazed he didn't say he'd wait for his own lawyer, however long. I felt that the show's never before so clearly shown its roots, not like that. The 24-like, "But we're running out of time!" as all the Constitutional law our heroes need to reluctantly assent to the need for extreme measures. 

It also made little sense for Saul and Carrie to poison Dante in the hope that he'd catch on and reveal, "I've been poisoned!"  ("How do you know?") ("How do you think?") Because, they thought, Dante would not only realize that the poison killing him had to be the same one that killed General McClendon? -- which, by the way: great guess, Saul and Carrie!  -- but also, 'fess up to knowing that, and how?  

Watching, I thought that as Dante writhed, he desperately decided to give Carrie and Saul what they wanted. In order to get her to stop asking questions and start doing compressions. 

To do that (poisoning) on their "second phase" of plan - both Carrie and Saul had to be sure Dante was in on Simone's plan to murder McClendon. I wonder, if aside from the inter-lapping Russia travels, they have other evidence that they're not tipping, as of right now, which may be revealed later. Because I have a hard time believing they would actually poison him only on the hope that he revealed what he revealed just based on a hunch.

It actually reminded me of when Carrie and Saul tried to take Quinn out of coma just so they can question him on the terrorist plot. Honestly, watching both of those scenes was a little unnerving for me, to see the lengths people would go through to get what they want, in guise of what they need.

[Son of Saul]

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The lawyer who showed up said that he was from the office of Dante's lawyer. When Dante asked where his lawyer was, the guy said that Dante's regular lawyer had sent him because the regular lawyer had to go to New York.

Patrick: Didn't Joe Toibin tell you not to talk to anyone?
Dante: I'm not an idiot. I didn't say anything. Where's Joe?
Patrick: He got called to New York this morning. Said it was urgent. I'm subbing in. [I'm] Pat Steyer.
Dante: Just get me out of here. This whole thing's a farce.
Patrick: Yeah, Joe filled me in on everything that you told him. I drew up a motion demanding your immediate release.

Ok. Thanks. 

[Pallas]

On 4/2/2018 at 6:21 PM, Pallas said:

When Carrie gave birth to Franny, she left the CIA.

 

On 4/3/2018 at 6:47 AM, healthnut said:

Actually, when she worked as station chief in Kabul in S4, Frannie lived with Maggie. 

You're right.

 

On 4/2/2018 at 10:58 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I can see where this could be what's going on, but what's the evidence that Welllington wasn't sincerely attempting to protect the president with a backup plan,

Just a hunch, really. For Wellington, a double-reverse from bad guy/good guy/bad guy, to mirror what I'm pretty sure is Dante's good guy/bad guy/good guy. Because otherwise he's just poor Wellington, in his Georgetown cardigans. A latter-day Natasha Fatale's dupe and the President's would-be swain, who instead, got Chief-of-Staff-zoned. As her second choice. After the first guy -- the one everyone liked, even Carrie -- got blown up for her. 

 

18 hours ago, riverclown said:

The problem seems solved thanks to the backup plan of the administration's ultimatum to Russia. So why is Saul so worried still? I think I missed something.

Saul wanted more than to keep Simone from testifying: he wanted to arrest her and interrogate her. His first priority isn't saving the Keane Administration; he wants to expose the Russian plot against the integrity of the government, and the well-being of the country. Simone is their tie to the Russians. And without her, only Dante: who either worked with Simone, or has spent years gathering evidence against her. 

[scrb]

23 hours ago, riverclown said:

So, if Dante dies the evidence against Simone is gone, and that plan fails. But, at the same time, Wellington's plan works - the Russians got her to stop her from testifying! So she is no problem anyhow, even if Dante dies. Right? The problem seems solved thanks to the backup plan of the administration's ultimatum to Russia. So why is Saul so worried still? I think I missed something.

Meant to mention this but Saul and Carrie are not cops.

So the rules of evidence or Dante requesting his lawyer may not apply.

Certainly they didn't care about the niceties of Constitutional and civil rights procedure when they were operating in Afghanistan and Berlin.

Carrie and Max bugging Wellington was clearly illegal and if discovered, it would be the end of their careers on any govt.-related work -- though these days, who knows.

Carrie also going to bug Simone, I don't believe they got some kind of court approval before to carry that out.

Of course abducting Dante and who knows how long they held him before they did that poisoning gambit, that would be illegal too as they'd have to charge them within 24 hours.

So this whole demanding the lawyer and bringing a fake lawyer may all be ridiculous.  They're not at some police station -- rather some nondescript offices.

Saul and Carrie are not even spies any more -- he's the national security adviser and she's more of a wannabe spy than an actual spy at this point.  But spies are not allowed to do what they've done to Dante and anything he says while being detained in this way would probably not be admissible.  Not that they're going to some court.

[Pike Ludwell]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

Meant to mention this but Saul and Carrie are not cops.

So the rules of evidence or Dante requesting his lawyer may not apply.

Certainly they didn't care about the niceties of Constitutional and civil rights procedure when they were operating in Afghanistan and Berlin.

Carrie and Max bugging Wellington was clearly illegal and if discovered, it would be the end of their careers on any govt.-related work -- though these days, who knows.

Carrie also going to bug Simone, I don't believe they got some kind of court approval before to carry that out.

Of course abducting Dante and who knows how long they held him before they did that poisoning gambit, that would be illegal too as they'd have to charge them within 24 hours.

So this whole demanding the lawyer and bringing a fake lawyer may all be ridiculous.  They're not at some police station -- rather some nondescript offices.

Saul and Carrie are not even spies any more -- he's the national security adviser and she's more of a wannabe spy than an actual spy at this point.  But spies are not allowed to do what they've done to Dante and anything he says while being detained in this way would probably not be admissible.  Not that they're going to some court.

Good points. It seems strange that Saul was able to get a warrant with this evidence, but the tough judge would not give him one earlier, with decent, realistic evidence. Dante's confession was clearly illegally obtained, under coercion and possibly tainted. And yet they were so certain if Dante just lived everything would likely be solved! Did Saul go to the same judge, did he find a different, corrupt, judge, or he did he lie to the judge?

Edited April 6, 2018 by riverclown

[Bannon]

51 minutes ago, riverclown said:

Good points. It seems strange that Saul was able to get a warrant with this evidence, but the tough judge would not give him one earlier, with decent, realistic evidence. Dante's confession was clearly illegally obtained, under coercion and possibly tainted. And yet they were so certain if Dante just lived everything would likely be solved! Did Saul go to the same judge, did he find a different, corrupt, judge, or he did he lie to the judge?

In real life, warrant applications, despite being made under oath, frequently have false statements and half truths, in an effort to get a judge to approve them. Only very rarely is applicant held responsible.

[John Potts]

Surely the CIA/NSA/FBI/WTF have access to drugs that mimic a heart attack without actually giving him one? And even if they did have to give him a heart attack for real, would a judge really grant a warrant based on a confession obtained while having a heart attack in government custody? I'd want to say no, but these days...

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:28 AM, chocolatine said:

Is Paley colluding with the Russians? He tried to get Keane to resign - loved her response to that, BTW - and then showed up at Simone's safe house the day before she was supposed to testify in front of Congress. Surely that must be against the law?

I know! In fact, given that Paley showed up at the safe house the day she escaped/was abducted, could mean he gets in trouble.

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:47 PM, slowpoked said:

Did not see Simone being romantically involved with Yevgeny. I thought she was a goner for sure once the Russians got to her.

I did see it coming - I was expecting him to kill her anyway (possibly expressing regret as he did so).

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:35 PM, Ottis said:

Why should we care that Keane resign? What has she done, what traits has she shown, that makes viewers feel she needs to remain president?

She was the people's elected choice? My problem is I just don't believe he'd be so unpopular it's a possibility. She survived an attempted coup by forces inside the government. In that situation, people would rally round the President and can't see them caring about a bunch of government apparachiks being detained illegally. Sure, loonies like O'Keefe would rant about "UnAmerican Constitutional violations", but the majority would rally to the President.

But of course, Homeland is on the side of the CIA, so we're supposed to care. That doesn't make it believable.

[Roseanna]

On ‎4‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 8:14 PM, Pat Hoolihan said:

So, if Dante dies the evidence against Simone is gone, and that plan fails. But, at the same time, Wellington's plan works - the Russians got her to stop her from testifying! So she is no problem anyhow, even if Dante dies. Right? The problem seems solved thanks to the backup plan of the administration's ultimatum to Russia. So why is Saul so worried still? I think I missed something.

 

Because everyone is going to believe that it was the President who ordered to kidnap the witness after her Chief-of-Staff.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Roseanna
adding two word

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 1:21 AM, Pallas said:

"Simone told me..."

No, I still think Dante has been working Simone, as a means to get back in on the inside (as Carrie astutely pointed out, through tears of empathy). Simone told him because while she had been playing Wellington, Dante has been playing her. As they each pursued their goals, Carrie and Dante have been lying to each other even more than they've been working together. But the goals were one and the same. Stop the attempted Russian coup; validate my own existence. Carrie, Saul and Dante will discover that the other two are all they have to resist the forces trying to overthrow the President.

If this theory were true, Dante would have had absolutely no reason to lie to Carrie. On the contrary, he almost gave Simone a chance to gave a false testimony.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎2‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 8:45 PM, Sentient Meat said:

I agree on a practical level that what she's doing to Franny is terribly irresponsible, but on an emotional level... assuming no one gets killed or permanently maimed along the way, when she's an adult Franny will probably appreciate how much her mother loved her, and be moved at the level of Carrie's dedication to try and do both things.  Remember, she went through the phase of acting like her daughter didn't exist, and now that she's built a bond with her and in a chaotic state of mind, she's gone too far in the opposite direction. 

I remember years ago, asking some friends if they had to choose between saving their child's life and the rest of humanity... who would you save?  I was surprised by how a few were so ego centric that they would choose their child over the rest of the world.  Let alone the sheer psychic and emotional damage you would cause the child by forcing them to grow up in a hopeless world with no people, knowing that your parent killed everyone...  isn't that just pure selfishness?  Every time someone signs up for public service, they are not only risking themselves but the well being of their family... if not in the extreme case of people trying to directly kill your family as revenge, but simply by inflicting the constant worry that one day they might pick up the phone and discover you are dead.  Whether it's as a soldier or spy, this is the type of sacrifice these people make... and putting aside politics which have put us in some very questionable wars... most of the time it is a very honorable thing.  I think this is part of what the writers are exploring, the cost of trying to do the right thing.

Sure it would be great if Carrie had a loving house husband who could protect Franny while she's saving the world... but she doesn't so improvising and exploiting the good will of her sister's family is the only play she has.  It's not a tale about irresponsibility but about impossible choices imo.

I disgree: in this season Carrie has been really irresponsible. There has been no impossible choices: when she left Maggie's home in the earlier episode, she could have left Franny there and she could have brought Franny back to Maggie's when she decided to go Dante's, she could have asked Maggie's help instead of bringing  Franny to school.  

[Roseanna]

Continueing: in principle the dilemma between "my country/my task) or my child" could be interesting and moving. In Carrie's case it's not because she never seems to have any hesitation in making choices nor any qualms of conscience for them afterwards.

Instead, when she was was confronted by her sister, she answered: "It's not fair!" like a five-year-old child. Any normal person would have admitted that she did wrong to bring Franny to school and deny her tell what had happened because it could cause trouble to her mother! She acted like an alchololic or abusing parent: a child must protect her parent, not vice versa.   

The most gracious explanation is that Carrie's medications is out of order.