S08.E10: The Lost and the Plunderers

[MDL]

Big reveals: Jadis can speak "normal English", has a helipad and solar panels.... Okay, so?

I think that Negan was so stunned when he first heard about Carl being dead, that  for a moment he abandoned the "braggart ass hole" persona and felt "real" feelings. He seemed legitimately stunned and hurt...... Fortunately(?), Rick was able to get that back!   :)

[Shriekingeel]

21 minutes ago, MDL said:

 

Big reveals: Jadis can speak "normal English", has a helipad and solar panels.... Okay, so?

 

I immediately thought of that  unconnected-to-anything helicopter flyover earlier this season.   

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, Shriekingeel said:

Someone remind me what the blue stuff is or is supposed to mean. 

In the sophomoric sense of these writers, blue represents innocence:

• In Jadis’ paint artwork (which is supposed to reflect the positive spiritual / innocent / artistic side of her nature), her color palette is predominately blue.
• Carl and Judith make big-brother-and-baby-sister handprints together - with blue paint.
• Dying Carl finishes planting a tree*, then leans back for an extended look/shot at the blue sky - before closing his eyes to feel the warm of the sun on his face one last time.

 

Now - how does this translate to blue paint on Simon’s boots?  To figure that out, let’s take a look at Simon - and, more specifically, his relationship with Negan:

• Simon doesn’t necessarily want to replace Negan, but he does want to be just like Negan.  Simon envies Negan’s power - Negan’s strength, his toughness, his air of authority, his ability to make (some) people want to follow him.  Simon does has a little of each of these qualities - but nowhere near as much as Negan, and it doesn’t come nearly as easily to Simon as it does Negan.  Witness the scene in the Sanctuary when the floor workers come upstairs to escape the walkers, and the differences in the worker bees’ reactions to Simon vs. their reactions to Negan - Simon encounters resistance bordering on mutiny, whereas Negan is welcomed with near-worship.
• Unfortunately for Simon, however, he and Negan are almost polar opposites personality-wise.  Negan projects an air of extreme emotion, but this is generally a tool - window dressing to sell a course of action decided on a basis of cold rationality (scare the sheeple straight so they will produce) - and Negan rarely lets his emotions override his logic.  Simon is the other way around; he affects an air of rationality to cover up an emotionally driven core, and presents as fighting a constant struggle to keep his emotions from overriding his logic.
• In attempting to emulate Negan’s toughness, Simon talks big (“Let’s wipe out Hilltop!” “Let’s wipe out the trash people!” etc., etc.) to garner Negan’s respect, but generally fails to do so - Negan unfailingly overrules Simon, saying such an approach would be counterproductive.  This represents a LOT of the basic conflict between the radically different personalities of the two.  Negan understands the key to maintaining threat-based power is to limit its display to small demonstrations staged for maximum impact (some pun intended); Simon, on the other hand, just doesn’t “get” that.  Simon consistently fails to understand the threat of power’s use is frequently MUCH more effective long-term than its actual exercise - and this often frustrates the hell out of Simon.
• Another thing about Simon’s kill-‘em-all talk; IMHO much of this is posturing.  Simon has never had to follow through with these threats, because Negan always overrules him.  Simon talks the genocide game a lot - but in terms of its actual execution, Simon is still a virgin.

So, when Simon heaps out to the trash heaps, he is EXTREMELY frustrated - Negan won’t let Simon go scope out the situation at the Kingdom, Negan won’t let Simon go after Maggie at Hilltop when she is sending Simon’s own men back in boxes, Negan won’t let Simon do more than one of the GPKs as an object lesson, etc.  

- And when Simon gets there, Jadis transparently lies to Simon’s face - saying she and her group were “presenting” Rick to the Saviors, when it was obvious to anybody looking through a rifle scope that (a) the GPKs were following Rick, and (b) Rick had a gun...

- And when Jadis says “there is remorse” in her monotone, it comes across as completely disingenuous - as Jadis merely mouthing whatever words she has to say to make this Simon asshole go away...

- And then Jadis continues with a little-more-grittily-delivered monotone “there is remorse”, even after Simon has executed the Negan-decreed act of single retribution...

...Simon is pushed to his edge of frustration, and shoots another - and Jadis surprises Simon by busting him a good one in the chops, knocking him down, and standing over him screaming “THERE IS REMORSE, YOU SON OF A BITCH!!!”

So - Simon finally managed to pierce Jadis’ armor of stoicism.  Jadis’ physical response was a BIG mistake, though; by taking Simon down with one punch and bloodying him in the process, Jadis has embarrassed Simon in front of everybody present - including his own men.  And Simon responds, and the Heapsters die.

A funny thing, though: while Simon has threatened many groups with extermination before, this is the first time he’s actually carried out the threat - and I don’t think the result is quite as satisfying as Simon expected.  Simon is stuck now with the immediate issue of coming up with a way to walk this whole scene past Negan, of course, but I don’t think Simon was prepared for the psychological burden which goes along with perpetrating an atrocity.  Only a sociopath could do such with zero psychological impact - and while Simon IS a loudmouth, over-theatrical bully, I don’t think he’s a sociopath.

 

And thus we return to the blue paint.  Although blue instead of red, I think Simon sees it as symbolic of the innocent GPK blood spilled at his command.  And although Simon has apparently already tried to wipe the paint off his boots, a tinge of blue remains - metaphoric of the stain on his soul, which can never be wiped off.

 

* Tree-planting?  WTF?  Did they shoot this scene on Arbor Day or something?

[Nashville]

One final follow-up to all the preceding: I do find it somewhat interesting that for all his posturing and “kill ‘em all” raging, Simon doesn’t appear to be near the sociopathic personality which could successfully pull off such without ill effect.  

Whereas I am reasonably sure that while Negan would hold such action as an absolute last resort - once he rationalized the decision to do so, he probably wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep over it.  Negan is the true sociopath.

 

57 minutes ago, MDL said:

Big reveals: Jadis can speak "normal English", has a helipad and solar panels.... Okay, so?

So - the GPKs were, to a degree, a staged front for something else going on in the ZA - something involving the occasional helicopter flyover, and an (underground?  trash-obscured?) facility which still has power.  If anybody came sniffing around trying to track the heli’s flight path, first thing they’d run into would be a bunch of hungry hungry Heapsters.  

 

Quote

I think that Negan was so stunned when he first heard about Carl being dead, that  for a moment he abandoned the "braggart ass hole" persona and felt "real" feelings. He seemed legitimately stunned and hurt...... Fortunately(?), Rick was able to get that back!   :)

Even sociopaths can be surprised to find they have genuine feelings for another human.  :)

Edited March 5, 2018 by Nashville
Typo

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I think that Negan was so stunned when he first heard about Carl being dead, that  for a moment he abandoned the "braggart ass hole" persona and felt "real" feelings. He seemed legitimately stunned and hurt...... Fortunately(?), Rick was able to get that back!   :)

I think Negan frequently displays real (and borderline reverent) feelings when it comes to Carl. 

I wonder what, if anything, we were supposed to get take away from the fact that Carl and Judith's handprints were made in that same color of blue paint. 

I feel like, per Simon's chat with Negan, he didn't kill them all out of sociopathy or vengeance, but more out of a desire to get their tedious nonsense off his to-do list for good. I find that amusing, haha!

Edited March 5, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[tricknasty]

That was an hour and six minutes of bullshit with a side of nothing.

[GenerationX]

I liked the walker mulching.  Not because it freed Jadis from her idiosyncratic idiot syntax, but because it removed unnecessary characters.  And this show still has WAY too many characters.  Too many characters = plot drives characters.  Plot drives characters = no discernible character motivation. 

[sarthaz]

3 minutes ago, GenerationX said:

I liked the walker mulching.  Not because it freed Jadis from her idiosyncratic idiot syntax, but because it removed unnecessary characters.  And this show still has WAY too many characters.  Too many characters = plot drives characters.  Plot drives characters = no discernible character motivation. 

If we could just get 80% of the cast to head over to the garbage mashers next week, we'd be in business.

[Nashville]

More school kid symbolism:

• After getting her crew killed, Jadis rejects both the stilted, stunted speech and the GPK-standard basic black garb; afterwards, she speaks normally and is clothed in white.  Symbolic of purity of rebirth, maybe?
• Doesn’t last, though.  After giving her former compatriots the Goodburger treatment (“YOU go in the grinder!  And YOU go in the grinder!  And YOU and YOU and YOU...!!!), Jadis’s art and her new white frock - both supposed symbols of her innocence and rebirth - are spattered and stained with GPK blood and gore.

 

Hell, we did better than this in high-school English class.

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

And thus we return to the blue paint.  Although blue instead of red, I think Simon sees it as symbolic of the innocent GPK blood spilled at his command.  And although Simon has apparently already tried to wipe the paint off his boots, a tinge of blue remains - metaphoric of the stain on his soul, which can never be wiped off.

Now that's what I call getting to the point. ; )

[iMonrey]

Maybe I jut have lower expectations (maybe?) but I kind of liked this one. And I say that as someone who felt nothing watching Carl die last week because I've run out of fucks to give. But I liked that they (more or less) explained the stupid junkyard people and then dispatched them. More the latter, obviously. Now, it still doesn't make up for the fact that nobody ever went "Why are you talking that way?" but at least we got an answer. 

I also liked seeing the obvious rift developing between Simon and Negan (if I have to watch Negan at all) and I suspect Simon will prove to be Negan's undoing, rather than the other way around. And I'm all for that. 

However, I found the title cards with the characters' names on them pointless and gimmicky. The episode would have worked just fine without them.

As a bonus, the zombie meat grinder was a nice touch. I never grew to feel anything for Jadis let alone her #2 but when the zombified version of her fell into the grinder, it was kind of a neat moment.

Edited March 5, 2018 by iMonrey

[Nashville]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also liked seeing the obvious rift developing between Simon and Negan (if I have to watch Negan at all) and I suspect Simon will prove to be Negan's undoing, rather than the other way around. And I'm all for that. 

Agree.  Not that I see Simon assassinating or otherwise deposing Negan; Simon ain’t THAT swooft.  I could easily see Simon saying or doing something (the whole GPK slaughter coming to light, maybe?), though, which results in Negan Lucille’ing Simon - and alienating or otherwise scaring the shit out of his other lieutenants and THEIR crews.  Resultant insurrection and/or defections (more likely) would hardly be surprising under such circumstances.

 

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

However, I found the title cards with the characters' names on them pointless and gimmicky. The episode would have worked just fine without them.

I didn’t even notice them.  So much for fuck-giving on THAT point.

[AngelaHunter]

7 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Sure, Jadis can't be trusted, but neither can Rick or many of the people that are currently working with Rick.

The only difference is that Rick is still guillible and naive, where no one else is, but still not dumb enough to bring the treacherous Jadis to live with them.

[nodorothyparker]

No one would have thought he'd be dumb enough to go back to her alone after she'd already double-crossed and shot him, but he was and so we got the spectacle of him fighting a walker on a stick in his underwear.  Never underestimate Rick.

[Nashville]

16 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Rick should have brought Jadis back, even if he kept her as a prisoner. 

I have to disagree.  Jadis’s negligible (and doubtful) use to Rick was as a leader of a people with guns; Jadis now has neither people nor guns, unless she has some cool golem tricks she can pull with walker paste.  And don’t forget - to most of the ASZhats, Jadis is nothing more thanthe leader of a group which took a lot of their guns, then betrayed Alexandria the first chance it got.  Hardly a recipe for friendly neighbor relations.

 

16 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Right now, she is a wildcard that will probably come back to bite everyone in the ass sooner or later.  I still think she is the perfect fit for Oceanside.  Oceanside lost Granny (leader), and Jadis has no one to lead.  Makes sense to me.  Instead of cats, maybe she can paint and sculpt seascapes?

Methinks Jadis may be a trifle soured on the whole leader thingie right about now....

[SnarkyTart]

In case anyone still cares,  this is from screenrant.com, who bothered to take the time to try to decipher the glimpse we got of Coral's letter to Negan...

Quote

Negan. This is Carl… Back when

someone. I got bit. We didn’t ever…

doing… I was just helping someone. And…

You might be gone. Maybe my dad…

he killed you – but I don’t think so. I think…

working on a way out. Maybe you got out. Maybe…

lost cause and you just want to kill all of us.

I think you have to be who you are. I…

…’s what you wanted. I wanted to ask you…

Maybe you’ll beat us. If you do, there’ll just…

…The way out is working together. It’s forgiveness…

…have to be a part…

…offers you peace…

…start…"

Since it can't be said enough, this is not the OG Coral we came to know through the previous 7 seasons.  It's Coral the Cheesemaker/Peacemaker who suddenly replaced him during this season from hell. 

[Nashville]

16 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

In case anyone still cares,  this is from screenrant.com, who bothered to take the time to try to decipher the glimpse we got of Coral's letter to Negan...

Since it can't be said enough, this is not the OG Coral we came to know through the previous 7 seasons.  It's Coral the Cheesemaker/Peacemaker who suddenly replaced him during this season from hell. 

So - is Rick going to arrest himself for opening someone else’s mail?  ;)

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, queenanne said:

I think the writers need to learn, that what makes an interesting or passable for discussion single-panel moment in a comic, is not necessarily going to be useful, or even sensible, played-out at length as a TV talking point.

Well...  the writers are NOW going to have to skip over every frikkin’ panel containing Carl from here on out, so I think they’ll pick up the notion pretty damn quick.  :P

[sarthaz]

27 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

In case anyone still cares,  this is from screenrant.com, who bothered to take the time to try to decipher the glimpse we got of Coral's letter to Negan...

Negan. This is Carl… Back when

someone. I got bit. We didn’t ever…

doing… I was just helping someone. And…

You might be gone. Maybe my dad…

he killed you – but I don’t think so. I think…

working on a way out. Maybe you got out. Maybe…

lost cause and you just want to kill all of us.

I think you have to be who you are. I…

…’s what you wanted. I wanted to ask you…

Maybe you’ll beat us. If you do, there’ll just…

…The way out is working together. It’s forgiveness…

…have to be a part…

…offers you peace…

…start…"

More coherent than most of these scripts.

[ShadowSixx]

So I see that I'm missing nothing. I haven't watched last week and didn't watch last night. I don't feel bad about it. The show has just dipped in quality. They have too much going on and too many characters that need to be trimmed. 

Is Heath still irrelevant to this group? Nobody is bothering to look for him yet?

Edited March 5, 2018 by ShadowSixx

[AngelaHunter]

I don't think Coral would have been able to spell "forgiveness" never mind advocate it. 

42 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

Is Heath still irrelevant to this group? Nobody is bothering to look for him yet?

With most of the populations at the settlements dead or missing, I doubt Heath is on anyone's minds.

[queenanne]

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

JDM showed there that he can act and convey actual human emotion, but what are we supposed to take from that when he's been set to kill or maim Carl at least twice since the last season premier and was just fine with bombing the piss of out of Carl's home the last two episodes?  Being momentarily worried that maybe his side caused it doesn't change the fact that they very easily could have and would have had a shot landed differently.  Making him right that Carl shouldn't be dead because he was the future doesn't do anything but piss us off all over again that the story decision was made to do it, just as making him right that Rick bears some responsibility for it by being so busy engaging in endless dick measuring without seemingly being able to just end it no matter how times he may threaten to watch out for his kid doesn't help either.

Nothing about the Enid-Aaron-Waterworld costumed girls of Oceanside makes a lick of sense.  We're going to keep you captive while we talk about killing you for killing grandma and then let you go, but not until after we listen to some little nobody girl threaten us first.  Enid, they've met our group.  I don't think they're going to consider them friends or good guys.  Considering that you were brought on as a sort of love interest for a main character who was just killed off, you've never had any consistent character development, and now the only prominent male characters on the show who aren't gay are at least pushing 50 you might want to do less to give them a plausible reason to kill you off too.

My answer and feelings would be that the idea is, Negan is a control freak who hates random death, and probably also thought that Carl would never die because he admired him so much - seeing him as a sort of superhuman teen figure.  As for not seeming to give two hoots in the moments when he's trying to firebomb Carl out of existence, or at least Carl's habitat, etc. - Negan's also clearly a creature of white-hot fury.  The only thing that can sway him out of his fury and make him stop, is the random death.  Whether or not it actually makes sense to the viewer is another question.

I literally LOLed when Enid got a title card, and then again when her segment was over in three minutes.  I thought it couldn't have been intended as anything other than a convenient storytelling excuse to explain why she wasn't there when Carl died.  

[raven]

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say I liked it, but upon reflection I don't hate it and can see the ideas the writers were playing with and what I think they were trying to do.  As is often the case with this show, there were a couple of kernels of something there.  And as you say, it's a break from our groups of the infinite ammo just randomly shooting at each other like we're supposed to know what's going on.

I so agree with "there are a couple of kernels of something there".  You made some great points @nodorothyparker and I think for me it just comes down to - the writing is bad 98% of the time.

I think our main cast has decent actors - Rick, Michonne, Morgan, Carol, we see flashes in JDM's Negan; Simon is legitimately threatening, 

There's just so much dumb we are being asked to accept - Rick going back to the garbage people after they've betrayed him, Aaron and Enid thinking they're going to get help from Oceanside, what the hell is going on at Hilltop, the introduction of the garbage people.  The dialogue is bad.  The cast is too big - there are only so many minutes and lines of dialogue to go around so we go long stretches without seeing characters or spending time developing stories. 

Carl was killed off seemingly on a writer's whim and there were stories for that character that could've been told.  If his death had been handled better, there could be good drama with it.  I'll always believe that Carl was killed off not as a bold dramatic move - if this show wanted to be bold and dramatic, they would kill off Daryl, who has had nothing to do in forever.

It doesn't seem to me that the show is interested in telling any story about surviving in an apocalypse, how you adapt and thrive and all of that - it wants to tell a story now about endless, stupid conflict over nonsense and to remind us over and over that no matter how long you've survived, eventually you'll die either violently or because you were dumb.

What fun!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

4 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

Since it can't be said enough, this is not the OG Coral we came to know through the previous 7 seasons.  It's Coral the Cheesemaker/Peacemaker who suddenly replaced him during this season from hell. 

OG Carl would have put it plain and simple.  "My Dad is gonna kill your ass.  Have fun dying, you over-talkative windbag prick!"

Edited March 6, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[TigerLynx]

I didn't watch the episode, but I came here to read the snark, and you guys didn't disappoint.

At this point, the only thing I would enjoy is both Negan and Rick dying painful pointless deaths.

I do agree the writers aren't interested in telling a compelling or interesting story about these characters.  The writers have become the Gary Stues and Mary Sues in the story.  According to them, they are writing edgy daring TV, they can do no wrong, they are just misunderstood.  The writers are even dumber than several of the characters have become.

[peach]

God love ya, Carl.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, queenanne said:

I literally LOLed when Enid got a title card,

This new title thing is a hoot. I had forgotten the existence of Enid until we got back to her and Aaron. Enid's been working on her monolgues and talked the Ocean women out of killing her, after she shot Granny, in about 3 seconds. And then, instead of saying, "Let's go!" and high-tailing it out of there the way any normal person would, just in case Cyndie changed her mind, she and Aaron stand around, poignantly speechifying to each other, ending it with a smooshy hug. How much more cornball can this shit get?

[sarthaz]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

This new title thing is a hoot. I had forgotten the existence of Enid until we got back to her and Aaron. Enid's been working on her monolgues and talked the Ocean women out of killing her, after she shot Granny, in about 3 seconds. And then, instead of saying, "Let's go!" and high-tailing it out of there the way any normal person would, just in case Cyndie changed her mind, she and Aaron stand around, poignantly speechifying to each other, ending it with a smooshy hug. How much more cornball can this shit get?

Yeah, but the hug was so beautiful considering their past history.  There was that time they had a scene together, and then they were in a car, and I bet they both like snowpeas ... and soup.  This moment has been building for at least 5 minutes.

4 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

So I see that I'm missing nothing. I haven't watched last week and didn't watch last night. I don't feel bad about it. The show has just dipped in quality. They have too much going on and too many characters that need to be trimmed. 

Is Heath still irrelevant to this group? Nobody is bothering to look for him yet?

This tells you how many fucks I give right now. I briefly thought you were making up this "Heath" guy as a joke before I remembered who he was.

[ShadowSixx]

8 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Yeah, but the hug was so beautiful considering their past history.  There was that time they had a scene together, and then they were in a car, and I bet they both like snowpeas ... and soup.  This moment has been building for at least 5 minutes.

No they probably like applesauce and knowing these writers they probably would forget that Aaron hates applesauce.

[SnarkyTart]

6 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This tells you how many fucks I give right now. I briefly thought you were making up this "Heath" guy as a joke before I remembered who he was.

See, I figured the reason they were suddenly adding title cards was so we could remember who the hell these people are: Enid?  Remind me again, who is she?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

46 minutes ago, peach said:

God love ya, Carl.

I loved Rick's "Watch your mouth!", like its going to mean anything.  What's it really going to do? 

"I will wash your mouth out with ..... fuck, I don't know.  But don't think I won't!"

[peach]

16 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I loved Rick's "Watch your mouth!", like its going to mean anything.  What's it really going to do? 

"I will wash your mouth out with ..... fuck, I don't know.  But don't think I won't!"

NEXT time!!!

[maystone]

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say I liked it, but upon reflection I don't hate it and can see the ideas the writers were playing with and what I think they were trying to do.  As is often the case with this show, there were a couple of kernels of something there.  And as you say, it's a break from our groups of the infinite ammo just randomly shooting at each other like we're supposed to know what's going on.

More than one reviewer has said this episode demonstrates why Steven Ogg should have been tapped to play Negan if they were going for the crazy charismatic leader and I can see that too.  Jeffrey Dean Morgan may have been perfectly great in other things but he's been utterly tiresome here, all gimmick and skinny-ass swaggering "my dick and my balls," which I realize is probably at least partly down to playing a comic character who has never translated well to TV and what's written on the page, but the end result has been a character who has eaten an inordinate amount of screen time without ever coming off as an actual human being we're supposed to feel anything about except maybe in his reaction to the news of Carl's death.  JDM showed there that he can act and convey actual human emotion, but what are we supposed to take from that when he's been set to kill or maim Carl at least twice since the last season premier and was just fine with bombing the piss of out of Carl's home the last two episodes?  Being momentarily worried that maybe his side caused it doesn't change the fact that they very easily could have and would have had a shot landed differently.  Making him right that Carl shouldn't be dead because he was the future doesn't do anything but piss us off all over again that the story decision was made to do it, just as making him right that Rick bears some responsibility for it by being so busy engaging in endless dick measuring without seemingly being able to just end it no matter how times he may threaten to watch out for his kid doesn't help either.

The Simon-Jadis scene was surreal on first watch, yet oddly affecting the more I think about it.  Loved Simon just coming out and asking what the deal with living in trash is, even if it seems like it probably should have come up sooner.  Ogg was doing some decent work there, fairly vibrating with rage that he'd been overruled in wanting to cut losses and then in pushing and pushing until he got the reaction he wanted to justify doing what he'd clearly wanted to do  The garbage people were poorly conceived and fleshed out, so I certainly won't miss them but since the show obviously intends this to not be the end of Jadis's story, I could appreciate the show laying out that the weird speech patterns and flat disinterested affect were a coping mechanism that somehow caught on just as Ezekiel's RenFaire cosplay did at the Kingdom.  Even if it comes too late for us to really care much or explain the choreographed circling of her followers.  

Nothing about the Enid-Aaron-Waterworld costumed girls of Oceanside makes a lick of sense.  We're going to keep you captive while we talk about killing you for killing grandma and then let you go, but not until after we listen to some little nobody girl threaten us first.  Enid, they've met our group.  I don't think they're going to consider them friends or good guys.  Considering that you were brought on as a sort of love interest for a main character who was just killed off, you've never had any consistent character development, and now the only prominent male characters on the show who aren't gay are at least pushing 50 you might want to do less to give them a plausible reason to kill you off too.

I'm willing to cut Jeffrey Dean Morgan a little slack - just a little - on his portrayal of Negan based on his work this season where we've seen Negan when he wasn't performing for his troops or enemies. I liked the boardroom scene with Negan and his lieutenants, his one-on-one with Simon, and certainly his talk with Rick. I can see a real person there: not a particularly sane or savory person, but something other than a caricature of a psychotic despot. As you said, he's saddled with the persona created for a comic book by someone who can come up with interesting story lines but who can not write dialogue. (I read the graphic novels up through the Governor. I stand by that judgment.)

It kind of disturbs me that I get Negan to some degree. His grief over Carl's death even though he previously attempted to murder the kid does  jibe with my understanding of Negan's world view. There are rules, and Rick keeps breaking those rules.  After Rick's armed rebellion - with an able assist from Carl - the rules say that someone close to Rick has to die by Negan's hand, and that someone was obviously Carl. That fact and the fact that Negan feels affection(?)/respect(?) for Carl can exist side-by-side without interfering with Negan's Prime Directive. The man can compartmentalize.

I agree that the Jadis-Simon scene was affecting, and I like that it carried over to the scene with Michonne and Rick in that Jadis did answer Simon's questions. I have to admit that I'm going to be looking for a way to work "There is remorse, you son of a bitch!" into a conversation. Or maybe a car decal that says "Honk if there is remorse, you son of a bitch!" I'm still working out the details. I liked that Jadis gave up her clan uniform and changed into a plain white dress; nice detail about her character. I really like Jadis; I have since the character was first introduced. I'm glad that she's becoming a regular, and, yeah, I'll admit that I'm glad that she's been unchained from the rest of her clan in order to do that. I'm looking forward to seeing how she fits into the rest of the story.

[oakville]

I don't know why they had flash cards for each character

[heisenberg]

2 hours ago, oakville said:

I don't know why they had flash cards for each character

I guess they don't either.

[Daltrey]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎04 at 10:57 PM, thuganomics85 said:

contract spats between Lauren Cohan and TPTB

I had no idea this was even happening. Upon investigation, I also learned that Scot M. Gimple will not be returning as show runner. This could not have made me more happy to hear. Every time I saw him on Talking Dead, acting like he was some sort of creative genius, I wanted to punch him in his smug, gimpy face.

[Nashville]

14 minutes ago, Daltrey said:

I had no idea this was even happening. Upon investigation, I also learned that Scot M. Gimple will not be returning as show runner. This could not have made me more happy to hear. Every time I saw him on Talking Dead, acting like he was some sort of creative genius, I wanted to punch him in his smug, gimpy face.

Well, don’t get too happy; Gimp has gotten kicked upstairs to a new position created for him - Chief Content Officer.  This gives Gimp some degree of control over TWD, FTWD, and any future TWD spin-offs.

On the plus side, though, it does mean Gimp will be further distanced from direct control over TWD’s day-to-day production activities - so it’s okay to be happy about THAT.  :>

[Daltrey]

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

With most of the populations at the settlements dead or missing, I doubt Heath is on anyone's minds.

Uh.......Who the hell is Heath? LOL! Seriously. This show really DOES have too many characters.

[Daltrey]

21 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Well, don’t get too happy; Gimp has gotten kicked upstairs to a new position created for him - Chief Content Officer.  This gives Gimp some degree of control over TWD, FTWD, and any future TWD spin-offs.

On the plus side, though, it does mean Gimp will be further distanced from direct control over TWD’s day-to-day production activities - so it’s okay to be happy about THAT.  :>

.......................the lord giveth and the lord taketh away.........................................................FUCK

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

5 hours ago, oakville said:

I don't know why they had flash cards for each character

When (you think) your viewership requires flash cards to remind people of character's names... it might be time for some internal reflection on just what it is you're doing that puts you in such a position.

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Uh.......Who the hell is Heath? LOL! Seriously. This show really DOES have too many characters.

He looked like Michonne's twin brother except his dreads were in a topknot... I think, IIRC, and went RV'ing around the countryside with Tara and she bored him to death - oh, wait - no. I think he got eaten by the sand-covered walkers on the bridge, maybe? Or maybe not. Presumed dead by Tara who goes jauntily walking back home, wearing some cool shades she found, apparently having forgotten the existence of Heath in about one day. Someone else should have a more accurate memory of that ep, because I don't.

[diebartdie]

On 3/4/2018 at 10:27 PM, Starchild said:

So is Jadis going to go off and found another (comic) group?

If Jadis does not go on to become

Spoiler

Alpha of The Whisperers

then every second spent with the GPK was a waste of EVERYONE'S TIME. Not just the viewers, arguably every moment we spent watching tv is wasted time, I mean the cast, the crew, everyone. If TPTB have to stuff episodes with POINTLESS FILLER, they either have too many episodes to fill or they have no story or both. I have been so tolerant this season. I've been confused from time to time about who all is where and night time scenes are just murky mess but mainly, I've been ok with a lot of it. THIS EPISODE THO.........

OK WTF, the drama nerds / art kids / cos players all manage to find Jadis and buy into her delusion t live out their nerdiest fantasies in the middle of a garbage dump, in the middle of the worst catastrophe humanity has ever faced?!? Even the most dedicated cos player is not going to do that. So yes, the writers did  manage to "justify" the supreme weirdo "culture" of the GPK but the justification belonged in a FANTASY, not TWD.

How did Jadis not get shot?

Why did Jadis change into a white night gown?

Who thought the audience would want to watch a scene lasting roughly 50 years of rotten zombies being turned into rotten dog food?

Why doesnt Michonne clobber Rick on the head and take his ass up to hilltop where is DAUGHTER is?

Why did Rick ring up Negan?

Is there any chance AT ALL this show can come back from all this bullshit?

[AngelaHunter]

48 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Why did Jadis change into a white night gown?

I'm sure it's all very symbolic, metaphorical and deeply Artistic and that we're just not deep enough to understand it. Or maybe it's more stupid bullshit spewed out from a bunch of untalented, heavy-handed hacks.

48 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Why did Rick ring up Negan?

To tell him he's going to kill him, of course, for the fifth time. Next he'll be sending that message by carrier pigeon. or have Daryl deliver it by arrow. Too bad there's no internet. He could send an email, with nasty GIFs in it.

48 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

they either have too many episodes to fill or they have no story or both.

I vote for "both", and add "lack of talent/imagination/skill/understanding of the behavior of human beings" etc.

48 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Is there any chance AT ALL this show can come back from all this bullshit?

IMO? Nope.

Edited March 6, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[TattleTeeny]

Eh, I still like the show, flaws and all; I have a good old time on Sunday nights (except for when I am crying over Shiva and Carl).

[PreBabylonia]

1 hour ago, diebartdie said:

How did Jadis not get shot?

Why did Jadis change into a white night gown?

Who thought the audience would want to watch a scene lasting roughly 50 years of rotten zombies being turned into rotten dog food?

Why doesnt Michonne clobber Rick on the head and take his ass up to hilltop where is DAUGHTER is?

Why did Rick ring up Negan?

Is there any chance AT ALL this show can come back from all this bullshit?

We needed a survivor to eventually reveal the truth to Negan. (?) The white silky nightgown is to attract more followers. I had the impression that Rick wanted to pull over to reflect and then intended to go back and get her, Judith be damned. Poor Michonne. She certainly puts up with a lot.

Does anyone know why Rick wanted to call up Negan to threaten him yet again? If he really wanted to share the news, he just had to say, Carl is dead, you bastard. I'm coming for you next. And then hang up. Why stay on and listen to Negan spouting off that this was all their fault?

I do think the show would be redeemable if they hired all new writers and retconned the hell out of it. Maybe a lot of it was Carl's delusional thinking after catching the flu, and the only ones that died were Tara (please, please show!) and Enid.

Oh and I don't know if I am being a bit bloodthirsty here, but I really enjoyed the walker muncher. (!)

38 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'm sure it's all very symbolic, metaphorical and deeply Artistic and that we're just not deep enough to understand it. Or maybe it's more stupid bullshit spewed out from a bunch of untalented, heavy-handed hacks.

To tell him he's going to kill him, of course, for the fifth time. Next he'll be sending that message by carrier pigeon. or have Daryl deliver it by arrow. Too bad there's no internet. He could send an email, with nasty GIFs in it.

I vote for "both", and add "lack of talent/imagination/skill/understanding of the behavior of human beings" etc.

IMO? Nope.

I saw so much potential in here again it was wasted by bad writing. Even the little details - why didn't Michonne rip out the floorboard with Carl & Judith's handprints and try to hold onto it as the sole remnant of Carl (besides his Polaroid and the dumb letters). Even if she had to sacrifice it later on by smashing it into a Walker to save them - that could have been the trigger that released all the tears. So many other things could have been changed or eliminated. Enid is completely deluded and I could accept her being sacrificed - they could have just saved Aaron and sent him back to give Rick a permanent "No" message. So how does Aaron think hanging out in the woods for awhile will convince the women to give him another chance? And why do they need more people anyway, when Maggie is having a difficult time feeding the ones she have and it's not as if they still have those weapons anyway.

And Nashville, I loved your blue paint analysis. It actually "painted" Neagan in a new light - he actually made sense as a character. Thank you!

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, diebartdie said:

If Jadis does not go on to become

  Reveal hidden contents

Alpha of The Whisperers

Why...

Is there any chance AT ALL this show can come back from all this bullshit?

Well there is a new showrunner next season, right?  One can only hope.  Really all it takes is for one person in charge to flip a switch and make a show do a 180, I've seen it happen on other shows.

[AngelaHunter]

25 minutes ago, PreBabylonia said:

So how does Aaron think hanging out in the woods for awhile will convince the women to give him another chance?

I guess he's going to wait a few hours until the women get past that little misunderstanding where Granny was gunned down. For awhile, Aaron seemed to be the only person with any sense here, and for that time I liked him. Now he's been turned into an annoying brain-dead idiot as well. What about that baby he wanted so much? It must have wet its diaper and he thought, "Oh HELL no."

27 minutes ago, PreBabylonia said:

I had the impression that Rick wanted to pull over to reflect and then intended to go back and get her, Judith be damned.

Sometimes while watching this show I'm so bemused or befuddled or unable to hear or see anything happening that it takes a day or two, and reading this forum for anything to sink in. Yes, Rick has just watched his son die and finished burying his body, yet his first thought after throwing in the last shovel full of dirt is, "Oh, well. That's done, now I need to talk to Jadis." I guess Michonne agreed that was the best course of action. I can't even...

[sarthaz]

Jadis wandering around barefoot and wearing white was some of the most amateurish symbolism we've ever seen on this show, and that's saying a lot.

[Haleth]

I nearly lost both eyes rolling them as Rick tells Negan for the gazillionty first time that he's gonna kill him. After Rick wasted the opportunity ages ago by shooting up some window instead, i don't believe he'll ever do it. 

So TWD used to be my fav show, the only 9pm show I'd watch live. I loved reading the live viewing posts and staying up late to watch TTD, then spend a good bit of Mon reading page after page of PTV posts. Fun stuff.  It has gotten so bad that I've just gotten around to watching today and there are only a little over 2 pages of posts 3 days later. It's a shame. 

I do have to admit to liking Jadis more (or perhaps hating her less) in this epi than ever before. She could be an interesting character now that she's given up that pretentious garbage speak.

i wish they could do a Bobby Ewing reset back to the early days of Alexandria and erase the past few years, going back to when this was actually a good show.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Haleth

[festivus]

I don't think there's any world in which Rick would not be a shuffling zombie himself after burying HIS SON. The one person he did everything for, the thing that's kept him from going all the way off the deep end. This is one reason why I'll never watch this show again. Just from reading between the lines of Andy Lincoln's interviews I don't think he understands it either. My personal opinion is that the show can never come back from Carl's death.