S07.E07: Episode 7

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I watched the PBS version of this episode, and didn't particularly like it.  Then I read the recap with scenes that I don't remember seeing, and it would have made a world of difference in this episode.

Barbara's dying didn't bring the waterworks for me at all.  I was spoiled, but that usually doesn't matter--I cry at the same shit over and over all the time. 

For example, I don't remember a scene where Phyllis comes into her room wrangling laundry and Lucille asks Phyllis to pray with her, and Phyllis politely declines.  Or a scene where she gets in her car and almost loses it.  And the death scene--the recap says Tom was saying stuff to Barbara and then Phyllis came in and told him to talk to her because she can hear him, and he launched into the psalm.  I don't remember the stuff before the psalm.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I need to know if I was just being inattentive.

And it matters because Barbara's death scene fell flat for me, and it might be because of the editing.  I like Phyllis the best of the three who were there, and without the "missing" scenes I mentioned, her part just fell flat.  It seemed off that Phyllis would complete the psalm for him.  For one, I'm not sure that as nonbeliever, she would have it memorized that well.  Lord knows I said thousands of Hail Marys in my day, but I couldn't recite it now if my life depended on it.  The Our Father?  Sure, although I'm not sure I'd be confident doing a solo in front of an audience. 

And how out of character it seemed for her took me out of the scene, but maybe it wasn't so out of character if she'd been declining to participate in praying with various minor players--what made it poignant is that she did what she thought Tom (and Barbara) would want, because they were that important to her.  There's a depth there that was missing because I didn't see (or don't remember) just how much she was struggling.

Also, I don't remember Tom telling Barbara the stuff the recap mentioned before the psalm.  To the point that I was shocked that he fell back on boilerplate--it was his wife, not some random parishioner.  And to the point that I told Mr. Outlier that if he's ever talking to me when I'm on the verge of death, to please say nice things like how I was a wonderful person and how much he loved me--the very things the recap says Tom said and which I don't remember.

The reason I want to know if these scenes were edited out is that I really will stop watching if I know the editing is affecting my experience.  I never watch edited movies--I'd rather never see it than watch an edited version (think of Saturday Night Fever's two versions).  I knew Call the Midwife was edited, but I assumed it was done in a way that might make a little bit of difference, but in this case, may have made a huge difference to me.  And I'd just rather not watch if that's the case and will happily go cold turkey.

But maybe I just don't remember the scenes correctly, and if that's the case, it's all on me and I obviously can't blame the editing.  I honestly don't know.

I don't recall Lucille asking Phyllis to pray with her and I think that may have been cut. The moment where she nearly breaks down in her car was just a few seconds at the end of a scene, but it was there.  We also saw Tom talking to Barbara at her bedside just before she died; kissing her and telling her how blessed he was to have her and couldn't bear to lose her.  This was before Phyllis arrived.

It didn't bother me that Phyllis was there at her death since Tom is the one who called for her to come.  As far as Phyllis knowing the Psalm, we don't know a ton about her upbringing and its quite possible that she was raised in a religious household or had been religious herself at some point.  It also wasn't all that unusual for folks back in the day to have memorized passages from the Bible and the 23rd Psalm is certainly pretty well known. 

[Anothermi]

6 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

It didn't bother me that Phyllis was there at her death since Tom is the one who called for her to come.  As far as Phyllis knowing the Psalm, we don't know a ton about her upbringing and its quite possible that she was raised in a religious household or had been religious herself at some point.  It also wasn't all that unusual for folks back in the day to have memorized passages from the Bible and the 23rd Psalm is certainly pretty well known. 

I thought we learned that Phyllis was born a "bastard" and had lived her life branded with that label. There was an episode a while back where this was addressed.  I can't remember which one but my (somewhat unreliable) memory tells me that she was brought up in an institution where she would have had to learn all the religion stuff - if only to know that she had to atone for her mother's sins. Again, I'm not positive about that part.

[Zella]

Wasn't she raised by her single mother?

[Anothermi]

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

Wasn't she raised by her single mother?

As I said. I don't remember, but I got the impression that she was exposed to religion in her early life.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

As I said. I don't remember, but I got the impression that she was exposed to religion in her early life.

I can't either, to be honest! It's been awhile since I rewatched the show. It wouldn't surprise me if she was exposed to religion during her childhood, given the time period she was born in. 

[LadyChaos]

5 hours ago, Zella said:

Wasn't she raised by her single mother?

 

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

As I said. I don't remember, but I got the impression that she was exposed to religion in her early life.

Yes, she told that young mother who ran away because she thought her daughter was better off without that her mother raised her.  She said that her mother did everything, anything she could to make sure Phyllis had a roof over her head, food in her stomach, and shoes on her feet. That there wasn't a single day that didn't go that she didn't wish that her mother was still here for her to thank her, and tell her how amazing she was. 

[plurie]

I was raised Jewish, but I know the words to that prayer just from living in a primarily Christian world. So I'm not bothered that Phyllis would know them since she grew up in an Anglican country.

They never specified, but Barbara appears to have had meningococcal meningitis and septicemia.

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

To the point that I was shocked that he fell back on boilerplate--it was his wife, not some random parishioner. 

Tom had been sitting with her for hours and had already said plenty of romantic, loving, husbandly things, but he was also her priest and fulfilling that position for her as well. 

I've sat with people as they died and the fear of death is  foremost in their mind.  Barbara was a believer whose focus was pulling away from earthly things and turning toward God. At that point it's not whether or not Tom loved her that mattered, but whether or not her sins had been forgiven and she would enter some sort of spiritual bliss or fall into oblivion.  It can be terrifying. I thought the "boiler plate," or as she  would see it, the comfort and reassurance of the last rites and the 23 Psalm,  would have been just what she wanted to hear.

Phyllis may think it's all meaningless but, to some people, it's the romantic "Love Story," fluff that becomes totally trivial at the end.

Thinking about it again makes me appreciate the way Tom's character has been written.  He never seems to forget his primary calling, it was there even in his break up with Trixie and his choice of Barbara as partner and wife. 

[chitowngirl]

2 hours ago, plurie said:

I was raised Jewish, but I know the words to that prayer just from living in a primarily Christian world. So I'm not bothered that Phyllis would know them since she grew up in an Anglican country.

They never specified, but Barbara appears to have had meningococcal meningitis and septicemia.

Asking out of curiosity-Is Psalm 23 only a Christian thing? Psalms are in the Old Testament.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I thought the death scene with Mr. and Mrs. Gelin in the first episode was just beautiful.  Those are the words that should be spoken to the love of one's life at a deathbed.  I know that Tom is a clergyman but, good grief, this was his new and beloved wife.  Generic prayers?

I'm not religious, but I don't think that particular Psalm is generic in any sense. There are tons of Psalms, and there's a reason that one is probably the best known by the religious and non-religious alike.  Even my non-believing self can find beauty and comfort in it while not believing in the diety being addressed. So it makes sense that a pastor would try to recite that comforting psalm to his wife, also a believer, as she passes over. He'd already said, in my view, lovely words to his wife, and now he was easing her out of life in a way that was meaningful to both of them.

And Phyllis, pitching in the lend a hand at the end, was amazing.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Clanstarling

[plurie]

2 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Asking out of curiosity-Is Psalm 23 only a Christian thing? Psalms are in the Old Testament.

The English translation is different even if it is in the old testament. Here's one version I found on line:

A psalm of David.

I want for nothing, for Adonai is my shepherd: it is God who lets me lie down in pastures of grass and who leads me to calm waters to restore my spirit, who walks me in level pastures as befits a shepherd of sounds reputation.

Even though I must sometimes pass through dark valleys, I fear no harm for You are with me; indeed, Your crook and Your walking stick are sources of constant comfort for me.

You set a table for me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with so much fine oil that I feel like an overflowing cup.

Nothing but goodness and mercy pursue me all the days of my life; indeed, I feel certain that I shall dwell in the House of Adonai for days without end.

Edited May 4, 2018 by plurie
Remove extraneous numbering

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, plurie said:

The English translation is different even if it is in the old testament. Here's one version I found on line:

A psalm of David.

I want for nothing, for Adonai is my shepherd: it is God who lets me lie down in pastures of grass and who leads me to calm waters to restore my spirit, who walks me in level pastures as befits a shepherd of sounds reputation.

Even though I must sometimes pass through dark valleys, I fear no harm for You are with me; indeed, Your crook and Your walking stick are sources of constant comfort for me.

You set a table for me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with so much fine oil that I feel like an overflowing cup.

Nothing but goodness and mercy pursue me all the days of my life; indeed, I feel certain that I shall dwell in the House of Adonai for days without end.

The King James Bible version of the psalm is probably the best known by Christians, in any case. Certainly the most poetic.

Translations are tricky. IMO, the best ones have a translator who is able to not only understand the language they're translating from, but who is also a writer in their own right. I found that "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" much better in the German version than the English.

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, doodlebug said:

It didn't bother me that Phyllis was there at her death since Tom is the one who called for her to come.  As far as Phyllis knowing the Psalm, we don't know a ton about her upbringing and its quite possible that she was raised in a religious household or had been religious herself at some point.  It also wasn't all that unusual for folks back in the day to have memorized passages from the Bible and the 23rd Psalm is certainly pretty well known. 

I'm next best thing to an atheist, and I can quote Psalm 23.

[willowk]

20 hours ago, Badger said:

I think the reason Phyllis was willing to finish off the 23rd Psalm for Tom but declined to pray with Lucille is that the former was more about words of comfort while the latter was about requesting something from a God she does not believe in.

I thought of it more as Phyllis stepping in to help Tom finish as he broke down in tears. She extended her hand (voice) to lift him up and help a friend make it through  a tough moment. Phyllis is highly capable and empathetic. I thought it was a beautifully done. Hate that Barbara died, but think the show did it well.

[shksabelle]

Really, PBS??? You shortened THIS episode so that done tattooed hipster could talk about changing Dr. Turner’s wardrobe to make him sexier????  WHY would you think anyone would want that. But, I guess you don’t need to listen to your audience as we have no choice but to accept the crumbs you deign to give us. 

[Brattinella]

16 minutes ago, shksabelle said:

Really, PBS??? You shortened THIS episode so that done tattooed hipster could talk about changing Dr. Turner’s wardrobe to make him sexier????  WHY would you think anyone would want that. But, I guess you don’t need to listen to your audience as we have no choice but to accept the crumbs you deign to give us. 

^^^^This times a million.

[dargosmydaddy]

Finally got a chance to watch this episode. I don't have anything to add about Barbara's death (which I was spoiled about since it aired in the UK), so instead I'll say that I was amused by the fact that the rather stocky Michael looked just fine in beanpole Timothy's suit.

[Fireball]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:51 AM, Ohmo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Regarding Jack Ashton taking time off from the next series to care for his daughter while Helen George returns, that doesn't change my mind.  I still prefer what we got to Barbara dying off-screen.  For anyone who watched Blue Bloods, they did that when Amy Carlson decided not to renew her contract during the summer hiatus.  The writers killed Linda off-screen by having her die as a result of the crash of a medical helicopter.   Most fans were not fans of that decision.   If Jack wanted to return after a year off, there's no guarantee that Charlotte would have wanted to do the same, and to have Tom reappear and say that Barbara was dead or their marriage was damaged would have sucked, in my opinion.  She loved him.  He loved her.  She became ill, and he was right there to support her.  It was sad, but I much prefer what we got to any potential alternatives.

As much as I didn't like the lets bring Tom & Barbara back just to kill off Barbara. You're probably right that this was better then killing Barbara off screen or the writers doing what they did with Chummy & Peter. Where Chummy was always AWOL but Peter was still around. However, I still didn't like it. This season as been depressing imo and then to kill off one of the main characters was just too much. I am unsure I will even watch tonight.

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Rap541 said:

Yes, she was playing a lead character but where was Barbara's story going to go, now that she was married happily to Tom? Consider if she had agreed to sign on for seasons 7-9? (or 8-10, not sure what the count is) What does that look like for the character of Barbara?

She can't date or have problems with a guy because she's married to Tom, the nicest guy ever, the vicar. Sure, she can get pregnant and have a baby, repeating the Chummy gets married and has a kid storyline - and to be honest marrying Chummy off isolated the character and made it increasingly awkward to include her. Or she could have difficulty having a kid, who hey, isn't that pretty similar to Sheilah's  storyline? She doesn't seem the sort to have a crisis of faith and sink into a deep depression like Cynthia so whats really left? I mean, she doesn't seem the sort to have a wild affair, and Tom screwing around with Trixie on the side , while *I* wouldn't mind, I accept thats a minority taste. So whats left?

Right, showing up to fill in when things are busy and doing parish stuff on the sidelines and standing around in the background while other characters have storylines. 

It sucks for us because we like their characters, but I understand sometimes why an actor might leave a successful show for something more interesting. 

 

I agree, I can completely see why the actress playing Barbara would want to move on from this series. Really as you said where can her story go? And frankly even when Tom & Barbara got stories written for them it really wasn't about Tom or Barbara but about moving the plots along or showcasing Trixie being over Tom. So while I'm annoyed that the writers killed off Barbara I can understand why the actress would want to do other work. 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:08 PM, Spunkygal said:

Although the acting was good, this episode felt so contrived to me. Let's bring Tom and Barbara back to have tragedy strike them in Poplar. Eh, it didn't do much for me and I like Babs and Tom. And I have sobbed at many episodes since day one, but there was something "off" about this for me. I also felt that the writers could have thrown us a bone with a happy ending for the young man in prison for stealing the car. Sister Winifred is still the forgotten nun, no story, no life. Sister Julienne is a shadow of herself. For me, the writers are struggling to maintain the excellent, meaningful stories we've seen in the past. That said, I would happily watch a series with Fred and Violet as the main characters. 

The whole bringing Tom & Barbara back just to kill off the character was really annoying. If you're going to kill off the character the least the writers could have done was kept them around this season. Instead we ship off Tom & Barbara to another church, tease us with Tom & Barbara are back for good. Wait Barbara is sick; tease the audience with she's getting better! No wait she might not be able to be a midwife, but at least she'll be alive... no wait sorry she's dead.

 

My other problem with killing off Barbara is I'm not that interested in where Tom's story goes from here. My predictions are

Spoiler

1. Tom has a crisis of faith this will probably lead to Tom leaving popular to try and find his faith again. Trixie will probably have something to do with Tom realizing he needs to leave to heal. I mean Trixie always gets the big speeches. (This takes care of writing out Tom, so Jack can take care of the baby)
2. Tom will come back with have his faith restored. During the time Tom is gone Trixie will realize that she's religious and Tom & Trixie will get back together. I don't really see this happening.
3. Tom will come back realizing he doesn't want to be a pastor making him the perfect man for Trixie. (The main problem Trixie had with the relationship was that she would always be second to the church.) If the writers go this route I will be royally ticked off. Lets change Tom so he's the perfect man for Trixie since Trixie is the world and deserves everything!
4. Tom will come back with his faith restored and we will get to watch him fall in love for the third time. This is probably the most likely scenario; however, I really don't care to watch Tom fall in love again.

Actually I don't care to watch any of those 4 scenarios 

 

Unpopular opinion, but I'm starting to think the show should have ended last season.  

Edited May 6, 2018 by Fireball

[Rap541]

Quote

Unpopular opinion, but I'm starting to think the show should have ended last season.  

I don't think thats unpopular ;)

I am willing to allow this season is just a bad season. A lot of cast adjustments came up that threw monkey wrenchs at the storylines - wouldn't Barbara's death been more heart wrenching if Trixie had been around? Did Lucille even know Barbara well enough to be emotionally involved in her death? Was the drinking plot really anything more than a thrown together reason to avoid making a storyline about Trixie's OBVIOUS baby belly?

And the actress playing Barbara wanted to leave and for whatever reason, they want the option of having Tom return so... there's just not much that can be done. 

But they're going to need to step things up in season eight because this was probably their worst season to date. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 5/4/2018 at 4:48 AM, JudyObscure said:

I've sat with people as they died and the fear of death is  foremost in their mind.  Barbara was a believer whose focus was pulling away from earthly things and turning toward God. At that point it's not whether or not Tom loved her that mattered, but whether or not her sins had been forgiven and she would enter some sort of spiritual bliss or fall into oblivion.  It can be terrifying.

That's a good point.  I was approaching it from the point of view of someone who doesn't fear death--picturing myself lying in that bed with Mr. Outlier and my best friend Phyllis there.  

I told Mr. O. that if he can't come up with anything original when I'm dying and has to go with prepared text, to read from the instructions for an IRS Form 1040, so I can go out knowing I'll never have an income tax return make me cry out of frustration ever again.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:24 AM, plurie said:

I was raised Jewish, but I know the words to that prayer just from living in a primarily Christian world. So I'm not bothered that Phyllis would know them since she grew up in an Anglican country.

I've always lived in a Christian world, and I never learned the 23rd Psalm.  I can recognize some words, and I might be able to recite some of them along with someone who's leading, but if someone were reciting it and trailed off, no way could I jump in and take over.  In fact, I just looked it up and those last couple of lines don't ring a bell at all.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 6:55 PM, shksabelle said:

Really, PBS??? You shortened THIS episode so that done tattooed hipster could talk about changing Dr. Turner’s wardrobe to make him sexier????  WHY would you think anyone would want that. But, I guess you don’t need to listen to your audience as we have no choice but to accept the crumbs you deign to give us. 

Well, we can refuse to accept the crumbs, and I think that's what I'm going to do.  I've watched since the very first episode, and I'll watch tonight's finale because I'm a completist, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the end for me.

Editing is annoying in and of itself, especially when there's not even a make-room-for-moneymaking-commercials motive.  But this bit of editing affected how this viewer thought things played out (which should never happen if editing for time), but moreover, I think it missed an opportunity.

By editing out the part where Phyllis declined to pray with Lucille, they had a nonbeliever suddenly start praying on a deathbed.  Not her own, of course, but it fits right in with the commonly held belief that nonbelievers change their spots when death is on the table.

By not showing her picking and choosing her prayer battles, it wasn't as clear (to me, anyway) that she didn't always capitulate, and was truly making a choice to pray in that instance.

Maybe I see this differently because I've been in Phyllis's shoes, where joining in prayer when a friend was dying was the kindest and most supportive thing to do, even though it went against everything I personally believe in.  But like Phyllis, I pick battles.  Only it's not like Phyllis, because we didn't see Phyllis doing anything but have her nonbelieving self finish a Bible verse.

[And maybe it's just me, but like I said above, I've said hundreds if not thousands of Hail Marys in my day (they were a staple of the prescribed penance after Catholic confession), and couldn't bust one out unassisted if my life depended on it.]

I realize Call the Midwife is a TV show and I don't have much patience for people who bitch about how some event in a fictional show isn't true to life.  And I also know that it's not the show's job to educate.  But it does irk that, especially for viewing in the U.S., they omitted something that would have shown more insight into the nonbeliever's value system and motivations and character.  And they didn't just choose not to explore it; they did explore it, and took it out.  For the very audience that has a lot of difficulty dealing with, never mind choosing not to demonize, never mind understanding, atheists.

It also happens to be my favorite character who's affected, and I'll admit that I'll miss spending time with my imaginary best friend Phyllis.  I don't want to break up with her, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

ETA (even though I hadn't posted yet):  Maybe the breakup is easier because as new posts are pointing out, this wasn't a strong season in general, and I'm too weak to give the heave-ho on just general principles (being the completist that I am), or too dense to even recognize that it's not a good season.  Perhaps it's just a perfect storm of a weak season and a specific beef for me.  But in years past, skipping Call the Midwife was simply unthinkable.

[Driad]

57 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

It also happens to be my favorite character who's affected, and I'll admit that I'll miss spending time with my imaginary best friend Phyllis.

The advantage of a fictional character is that her time is not limited. Phyllis can spend all day with you, and all day with me at the same time.

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 minutes ago, Driad said:

The advantage of a fictional character is that her time is not limited. Phyllis can spend all day with you, and all day with me at the same time.

That's why I'm glad I'm not on Facebook.  I'll never be the wiser.

[caitmcg]

59 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

By editing out the part where Phyllis declined to pray with Lucille, they had a nonbeliever suddenly start praying on a deathbed.  Not her own, of course, but it fits right in with the commonly held belief that nonbelievers change their spots when death is on the table.

I don't think I'd characterize Phyllis completing the psalm at Barbara's bedside as praying, actually. As others have pointed out, she did it as solace to Tom, the beloved husband of her dear friend, who was too bereft to go on. If he'd been able to complete the prayer himself, she wouldn't have chimed in (as she didn't before he broke down), nor would she have opened her mouth while attending a church service for a friend's funeral or wedding rites. Don't get me wrong, I'm annoyed by the edits along with everyone else, but my reaction while watching was solely that Phyllis was doing it strictly as a comfort to Tom because she is a keen reader of emotion and generous that way. I guess I didn't find it confusing because she is so up-front about her atheism (even especially with Tom and the nuns), I can't imagine her making a show of praying. 

A couple of people have mentioned this, but I don't think PBS itself is responsible for the edits. I know that, at least for the first couple of seasons, some PBS stations (including my local, KQED) showed the uncut episode on first airing, though the edited episode has only ever been available for streaming on the PBS website, as well as on US Netflix. Then poof, those went away. But this season has been different, in that when in the past I read bits that had been edited out in PTV recaps or on other sites, they were quite minor in the scheme of things, and not some of the more egregious edits of this season (especially in the one episode with Magda and the Pakistani family). I wonder if the editing was done by a new third-party company or something.

[Ceindreadh]

33 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

I don't think I'd characterize Phyllis completing the psalm at Barbara's bedside as praying, actually. As others have pointed out, she did it as solace to Tom, the beloved husband of her dear friend, who was too bereft to go on. If he'd been able to complete the prayer himself, she wouldn't have chimed in (as she didn't before he broke down), nor would she have opened her mouth while attending a church service for a friend's funeral or wedding rites. Don't get me wrong, I'm annoyed by the edits along with everyone else, but my reaction while watching was solely that Phyllis was doing it strictly as a comfort to Tom because she is a keen reader of emotion and generous that way. I guess I didn't find it confusing because she is so up-front about her atheism (even especially with Tom and the nuns), I can't imagine her making a show of praying. 

 

I agree.  Phyllis wasn't saying the psalm for herself, she was saying it because she knew that Tom wanted to but couldn't and she knew that it would comfort both him and Barbara (if she could still hear) to hear it being said.  I think if Tom hadn't been in the picture and Barbara was dying then Phyllis would have recited whatever psalms she thought would comfort Barbara to hear, regardless of her own personal beliefs. 

[Calvada]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

[And maybe it's just me, but like I said above, I've said hundreds if not thousands of Hail Marys in my day (they were a staple of the prescribed penance after Catholic confession), and couldn't bust one out unassisted if my life depended on it.]

This made me laugh, because I am the same.  I was raised Catholic; in addition to attending mass every Sunday and holy days, my mother made us children recite the rosary with her once a week.  Decades later, and decades a lapsed Catholic, I was in church for the first time in a long time for a family funeral, and I was a beat behind everyone on the responses.  And they've changed them since my childhood!  So there's no way I could pick up a prayer whenever someone faltered.  I remember certain phrases, so for me, it would be "mumble, mumble, Let perpetual light shine upon her, mumble, mumble, Amen."  

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, Calvada said:

This made me laugh, because I am the same.  I was raised Catholic; in addition to attending mass every Sunday and holy days, my mother made us children recite the rosary with her once a week.  Decades later, and decades a lapsed Catholic, I was in church for the first time in a long time for a family funeral, and I was a beat behind everyone on the responses.  And they've changed them since my childhood!  So there's no way I could pick up a prayer whenever someone faltered.  I remember certain phrases, so for me, it would be "mumble, mumble, Let perpetual light shine upon her, mumble, mumble, Amen."  

And oddly, I, a nonbeliever who was not raised in a particular religion, could have picked it up. I guess, for all of my unbelief, that psalm has always appealed to me.

[Fireball]

2 hours ago, Rap541 said:

I am willing to allow this season is just a bad season. A lot of cast adjustments came up that threw monkey wrenchs at the storylines - wouldn't Barbara's death been more heart wrenching if Trixie had been around? Did Lucille even know Barbara well enough to be emotionally involved in her death?

I don't think it would have. I never really bought that Trixie and Barbara were really close friends. I know that show told us they were... Also I think if Trixie had been around the writers would have had her at Barbara's death bed comforting Tom instead of Phyllis, and I'm glad that it was Phyllis.

 

2 hours ago, Rap541 said:

Was the drinking plot really anything more than a thrown together reason to avoid making a storyline about Trixie's OBVIOUS baby belly?

The drinking plot wasn't well done imo. It was the writers get out of jail free card so they wouldn't like you said have to write a storyline about Trixie being obviously pregnant. I felt the reason Trixie fell off the wagon was dumb. She had a bad day and she decided her boyfriend  should be with his Ex-wife or something like that.

 

2 hours ago, Rap541 said:

And the actress playing Barbara wanted to leave and for whatever reason, they want the option of having Tom return so... there's just not much that can be done. 

If the show wants Tom back then there really wasn't another option, but I'm not sure why the writers want Tom back. While I like looking at the actor, yes I am shallow, I feel like his story was done. What are we going to get with him back.

Spoiler

1) watching him have a crisis of faith, 2) be depressed over his wife's death, 3) watching him learn to live again, 4) watching him and Trixie get back together, and/or 5) watching him fall in love for the 3rd time.

 We could have had most of these storylines with a different pastor. It would have been nice if Tom & Barbara could have had a happy ending.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Fireball

[StatisticalOutlier]

4 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I agree.  Phyllis wasn't saying the psalm for herself, she was saying it because she knew that Tom wanted to but couldn't and she knew that it would comfort both him and Barbara (if she could still hear) to hear it being said.

It would have comforted Lucille if Phyllis had prayed with her; she even asked her to do it, and Phyllis declined.  I think it would have been helpful to include that scene, to show the contrast between the two situations.  Shoot--somebody thought it meant something or it never would have been shot in the first place, or included in the "full" version.

If I were trying to convert Phyllis and saw her reciting scripture from memory, I would be very encouraged.  If I knew she had recently refused to pray with someone who asked her to, it would make me rethink.

 

3 minutes ago, Calvada said:

I was raised Catholic; in addition to attending mass every Sunday and holy days, my mother made us children recite the rosary with her once a week.  Decades later, and decades a lapsed Catholic, I was in church for the first time in a long time for a family funeral, and I was a beat behind everyone on the responses. 

Try mass every day except Saturday if you're in Catholic school.  Or at my school, anyway.  But no rosaries, thank heaven.  Those things were brutal. 

Taking a dance class as an adult taught me a lot about how much I "know" something.  I could do all sorts of routines and combinations as long as there was someone in front of me I could be a nanosecond behind.  But a solo?  Massive crash and burn.

I think that's why hymns in church are so slow--everybody's being a beat behind everybody else, and it goes exponential.  Which reminds me--the Amazing Grace at the end of this episode?  I put it on 1.3 speed and actually thought I hadn't hit the button because it was still slow.  And yet they cut actual content.  Bleh.

[Ceindreadh]

25 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

It would have comforted Lucille if Phyllis had prayed with her; she even asked her to do it, and Phyllis declined.  I think it would have been helpful to include that scene, to show the contrast between the two situations.  Shoot--somebody thought it meant something or it never would have been shot in the first place, or included in the "full" version.

If I were trying to convert Phyllis and saw her reciting scripture from memory, I would be very encouraged.  If I knew she had recently refused to pray with someone who asked her to, it would make me rethink.

 

 

 

I disagree.  I thought that Lucille was asking Phyllis to pray with her because she thought it would comfort Phyllis to pray, not because Lucille herself wanted the comfort of praying with her company.  Phyllis quickly disabused her of that notion.  And even if Lucille had wanted that comfort for herself, she's not as close a friend as Barbara was. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

4 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I disagree.  I thought that Lucille was asking Phyllis to pray with her because she thought it would comfort Phyllis to pray, not because Lucille herself wanted the comfort of praying with her company.  Phyllis quickly disabused her of that notion. 

Since I'm in the U.S. and therefore didn't get to see the scene, all I had to go on was the recap, which said:  "Lucille says, to be honest, she probably was asking more for her own sake: 'I like to pray with other people. It's how I was brought up.'"

 

Quote

And even if Lucille had wanted that comfort for herself, she's not as close a friend as Barbara was. 

Yes, that's my point.  Phyllis won't pray with just anybody, and it's probably a pretty big deal when she does do it.  But those of us who saw the edited version wouldn't have any way to know that.

[Diane M]

On 4/30/2018 at 5:57 PM, txhorns79 said:

And have they just kind of given up on the idea that Sister Monica Joan has dementia?  I can't believe this is the same woman who only a few seasons ago nearly died after she ran away and slept in a barn during on a cold winter night as part of some quest to return to her childhood home.  It's like she's now just some wise old lady that is occasionally overly emotional.   

I'm glad someone mentioned this.  I can't believe she has dementia.  Do people with that affliction quote poetry, use long, complicated words and sentences and always recognize everyone around them?  Not the dementia sufferers I've known.  I'm probably the only one who wouldn't miss the character.  I'd rather she'd died than Sister Evangelina.

[Shermie]

Quote

But whenever a character starts talking (or being talked to)  about green fields and moving to the country and making idyllic plans, it's pretty much a certainty they are done for.

It may come as a surprise to tv/movie producers, but some people make plans to move to,the country and actually live to do it. /eye roll

Just binged on this entire series, and while Barbara's death was very sad, it is the circle of life and all that. People come and go, in various ways. I think this show does a good job showing that's.

I find it amusing that some posters are so indignant that the actresses playing Barbara or Cynthia would deign to leave a job, that they're not attractive (i.e. worthy) enough to get better work elsewhere. How dare they? Maybe they're just tired of this particular gig, maybe they want to try something different, maybe they want to travel, maybe they want to focus on their family, maybe they prefer to try a new role.

The secondary plot with the young father in jail pissed me off. He gets three years in jail for stealing a car? After a sincere admittance of remorse to,the parole board (or whatever that was)? Yeah, that's a good use of resources. Take a potentially productive person out of society and stick him in jail where he might be abused or become hardened.

I think, as an actor, playing a dramatic death scene would be great.

[JoSnowden]

Did they really have to kill Barbara.  I loved her.  Could she and Tom went to another church?  

[JoSnowden]

On 10/7/2018 at 4:13 PM, Diane M said:

I'm glad someone mentioned this.  I can't believe she has dementia.  Do people with that affliction quote poetry, use long, complicated words and sentences and always recognize everyone around them?  Not the dementia sufferers I've known.  I'm probably the only one who wouldn't miss the character.  I'd rather she'd died than Sister Evangelina.

Yes many Alzheimer’s and dementia patients have long term memory but not short term memory. So they can remember something that happened 50 years ago like it was just yesterday but can’t remember five minutes ago what they said to you.

[doodlebug]

17 hours ago, JoSnowden said:

Did they really have to kill Barbara.  I loved her.  Could she and Tom went to another church?  

I think the show was going for maximal dramatic value, but, I agree, they could've been transferred somewhere else.  The problem is that the actress who played Barbara wanted to leave permanently while the actor playing Tom just wanted a temporary leave to care for his child while his partner worked.  It would be hard to explain why Tom returned without Barbara.

The British system, where actors aren't tied to shows by longterm contracts, makes this sort of stuff a lot more common than in the US.

[Tyro49]

Was it ever explained just how Barbara became ill in the first place? One minute she's delivering a baby, the next she's coughing and taking to her bed. And nobody around her or anywhere she's been seems to be sick. Where did she get it from?

[jpgr]

On 10/30/2020 at 2:51 PM, Tyro49 said:

Was it ever explained just how Barbara became ill in the first place? One minute she's delivering a baby, the next she's coughing and taking to her bed. And nobody around her or anywhere she's been seems to be sick. Where did she get it from?

I always assumed it was somehow a result of the fire, something she breathed in but it was never explained.

[RedbirdNelly]

On 4/30/2018 at 9:57 AM, Sarah 103 said:

 

Who would have ever expected that sweet little Timothy (who's really grown up now) would be a Rolling Stones fan? Also, he is going to have eternal bragging rights "I saw the Stones in 63 before they were big legends." Casting hit the jackpot. Looking at Timothy is a bit like looking at Patrick's yearbook photo. Casting had no idea what he'd grow up to look like, but it's wonderful that it's such a strong resemblence. 

I was thinking the same thing. Timothy looks so much like a real son of Patrick, you almost forget they are actors and there was no way to know Timothy would grow up to be tall and thin and just mimic his tv dad so much

[RedbirdNelly]

I very much did not like this episode. I hate having a character come back only to die or leave permanently. I liked Barbara even if she wasn't the most exciting character. She could have still been an interesting midwife. I was bummed when the episode ended and had to remind myself this was just a show. 

I continue to love Nurse Crane. Wonderful acting.