S02.E06: Descent

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wow, I wonder if things might've turned out differently if Andrew hadn't used Jeff to try to make David jealous.

My heart sank for the pre-murderous AC when he saw David and Jeff talking downstairs (how quick did AC fly down those stairs?).  Don't use a handsome gay dude to make your handsome gay dude jealous.  It's not going to end well.

[Chaos Theory]

We get our initial definition of things from our parents and it entirely possible Andrew got his warped definition of love from his mother.  By no means is his murder spree her fault but the way she fawned  over him and yet ignored his cry for help is something we have seen from Andrew himself.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[CeeBeeGee]

So many great comments. And yes, yet another incredibly sad episode. I loved the title card with the victims' names reminding us of the damage and carnage this monster left behind. Keep reminding us of their names, their faces, their humanity.

On 3/1/2018 at 5:30 AM, Robert Lynch said:

Loved the 80s-90s music used here. Can I say the music used is great and kind of fits with the show in general! I was shocked to see Michael Nouri here. He came a long way from Flashdance, did he? Darren Criss knows how to rock those 90s clothes. 

It took me awhile to place him--then I got it and flew to Wikipedia to confirm it.

21 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I am in total agreement. I am loving the reverse chronological aspect of this show. It adds a kind of backwards suspense too because you know who ends up murdered. So every scene with one of Andrew's victims is just fraught with the horror and injustice of how they end up.

Oh man, when Lee appeared I nearly jumped out of my seat. I wanted to throw my arms around and say "Run, you sweet older gentleman! You don't deserve this! None of you deserve this!"

Absolutely loved Norman's brutal reading of Andrew. Who the HELL do you think you are, issuing a list of demands like that? You're nothing more than a jumped-up poser and gigolo. Gallo hit it on the nose--you are the lucky one, not Norman. My God, he was willing to pay for your education, I would be ecstatic if someone offered to pay for my Master's. That's insanely generous and you just threw it away petulantly.

Agree with everyone that Cody Finn is fantastic. He brings such dimension and depth to this role, with such minute readings. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here'  Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Not The One

Andrew Cunanan's manipulations -- and druggy delusions -- start to trip him up as his 'Descent' begins in American Crime Story S02.E06.

[J.D.]

On 3/1/2018 at 7:02 AM, sashayshante said:

I was cringing inside watching David listen to Andrew fabricate a backstory for himself in the hotel room. You saw each emotion on Fern's face as the story went on. First, he was hopeful Andrew was finally going to be honest with him; then he was annoyed because Andrew started lying; then finally he just pitied Andrew. Man, was Cody Fern a huge find. He can convey so much emotion with just his body language. 

This ^^^^^ is so perfectly depicted.  Cody Fern didn't have to say a word and yet you knew just how he felt.  His subtle expressions said it all.  

[J.D.]

On 3/1/2018 at 8:50 AM, sashayshante said:

https://genius.com/Laura-branigan-self-control-lyrics

I didn't make the connection in the moment, but this song was a perfect choice for the episode.

Yes! Whoever chose the music sure did know what they were doing.  I know there's been some indifference from viewers over the song "Gloria" from an earlier episode, but I thought the words fit perfectly for Andrew...

♫...Gloria, you're always on the run now
Running after somebody, you gotta get him somehow
I think you've got to slow down before you start to blow it
I think you're headed for a breakdown, so be careful not to show it

You really don't remember, was it something that he said?
Are the voices in your head calling, Gloria?
Gloria, don't you think you're fallin'?
If everybody wants you, why isn't anybody callin'?...."  ♫

:

Then, in Wednesdays episode, we hear George Michael's Freedom '90 in the bar scene....

♫...I think there's something you should know
I think it's time I stopped the show
There's something deep inside of me
There's someone I forgot to be
Take back your picture in a frame
Don’t think that I’ll be back again
I just hope you understand
Sometimes the clothes do not make the man
All we have to do now
Is take these lies and make them true somehow....♫

:

Good job, to whoever chose the music!

Edited March 2, 2018 by J.D.

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

My heart sank for the pre-murderous AC when he saw David and Jeff talking downstairs (how quick did AC fly down those stairs?).  Don't use a handsome gay dude to make your handsome gay dude jealous.  It's not going to end well.

I don't think Jeff would have done that to Andrew, knowing how he felt about David. He seemed to have a very strong moral compass and sense of ethics.

35 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Yes! Whoever chose the music sure did know what they were doing.  I know there's been some indifference from viewers over the song "Gloria" from an earlier episode, but I thought the words fit perfectly for Andrew...

♫...Gloria, you're always on the run now
Running after somebody, you gotta get him somehow
I think you've got to slow down before you start to blow it
I think you're headed for a breakdown, so be careful not to show it

You really don't remember, was it something that he said?
Are the voices in your head calling, Gloria?
Gloria, don't you think you're fallin'?
If everybody wants you, why isn't anybody callin'?...."  ♫

:

Then, in Wednesdays episode, we hear George Michael's Freedom '90 in the bar scene....

♫...I think there's something you should know
I think it's time I stopped the show
There's something deep inside of me
There's someone I forgot to be
Take back your picture in a frame
Don’t think that I’ll be back again
I just hope you understand
Sometimes the clothes do not make the man
All we have to do now
Is take these lies and make them true somehow....♫

:

Good job, to whoever chose the music!

iMO, Ryan Murphy always gets the music right in all of his shows, going back to Nip/Tuck.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I don't think Jeff would have done that to Andrew, knowing how he felt about David. He seemed to have a very strong moral compass and sense of ethics.

But Andrew was insecure and self-absorbed enough to assume that Jeff was going to go after David. That's probably why Andrew first tried to out Jeff to his family via the postcard, and then later why he killed him. David's rejection and finding out Jeff was moving to Minnesota probably combined to be the last straw for Andrew's sanity.

[Armchair Critic]

On 3/1/2018 at 8:29 AM, icemiser69 said:

I like "Self Control", much more so than "Gloria".  Laura Branigan had one hell of a voice.  She died at such a young age.

I loved Laura Branigan but I'm surprised they used those songs as they don't fit the timeline because they were popular years before that.

[itsjustme]

4 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I loved Laura Branigan but I'm surprised they used those songs as they don't fit the timeline because they were popular years before that.

We're those the songs Andrew sang so they would fit the timeline of his teens where most people start develop their musical taste.

[sashayshante]

7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I loved Laura Branigan but I'm surprised they used those songs as they don't fit the timeline because they were popular years before that.

I had the exact same thought about Back 2 Life being played in the opening of the scene about Versace's last couture show. Then I made the connection: Versace was telling Donatella about how his new line for the show was inspired by his second chance at life after being sick. Hence, Back 2 Life.

[Florinaldo]

19 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Absolutely loved Norman's brutal reading of Andrew. Who the HELL do you think you are, issuing a list of demands like that?

I was amused by the way he behaved, like a petulant child who has been denied a third lollipop: arms crossed, pouting, stomping out of the room. The only thing missing was pounding his foot the floor.

His attire certainly fit that image: he looked like a young schoolboy. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Florinaldo

[Steph619]

I can't help but feel sad for all of the victims after I finish watching every episode. Watching the show in reverse order has allowed me to learn more about them and they all seemed like genuinely nice people who just had the misfortune of having Andrew Cunanan come into their lives.

I have to wonder if things had been different had David agreed to be with Andrew, but I don't think David had feelings for him like that and Andrew still had his own personal demons. Something would've gone wrong either way.

[marceline]

After all the mayhem we've seen Andrew create, watching him get brutally called out by both Norman and his delightfully bitchy friend. We got to see people say the words so many of us have been thinking. It was basically fan service but I'll take it.

Sometimes when I watch this show I wonder whether the real Cunanan would love it or hate it. Love being the subject or hate being exposed as twisted, craven fraud.

[MamaMax]

On 3/1/2018 at 8:29 AM, icemiser69 said:

At least no one died in this episode.

I like "Self Control", much more so than "Gloria".  Laura Branigan had one hell of a voice.  She died at such a young age.

I do wonder if Andrew had been much more honest with David about his past, if much of the carnage could have been avoided.  David could see through Andrew's bullshit.

I don't get all of the love for lobster.  Isn't it just the insect of the sea?

I thought lobster was an east coast thing, and that King crab was the west coast equivalent.  Fun fact: In colonial new england, lobster was fed to prison inmates. It was so readily available and seen as a bottom feeder, undesirable food. 

Back to the show...

Was AC's mom mentally ill IRL? She came off as very strange to me.

AC's pursuit of David was so sad, and also disturbing. For all his talk about love, as a sociopath, he really lacks the ability to love, rather, he wanted to POSSESS David. 

[LilWharveyGal]

7 hours ago, Steph619 said:

I have to wonder if things had been different had David agreed to be with Andrew, but I don't think David had feelings for him like that and Andrew still had his own personal demons. Something would've gone wrong either way.

Frankly, based on what we're seeing I'm not even convinced that Andrew had feelings for David, but rather an idealized version of David and the fantasy relationship he'd built up in his mind.  I think the reality of a relationship with the actual David would have bored Andrew and eventually gone south.

[Florinaldo]

44 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

I thought lobster was an east coast thing, and that King crab was the west coast equivalent.  Fun fact: In colonial new england, lobster was fed to prison inmates. It was so readily available and seen as a bottom feeder, undesirable food. 

Since real lobster has to be imported form the East and thus costs more, perhaps AC thought it was a sign of high standing. In olden days lobster was indeed considered a food for the peons; in the Maritimes Provinces (and also along the US East Coast I believe) it's the part of the catch that fishermen kept for their family because there was very little market for it. It probably was not cooked with as much refinement and variety as today; in the long run, overcooked lobster every dinner would have the same effect as boiled potato or mushy broccoli every day.

23 hours ago, J.D. said:

Cody Fern didn't have to say a word and yet you knew just how he felt.  His subtle expressions said it all.  

The scenes between DM and AC were especially effective because of the acting from the two performers, mostly based on subtle looks and minute reactions that perfectly depicted how DM increasingly saw through the lies and how AC grew more distressed at each turn of the screw, which chipped away at his fantasy, and then tried to rally with another invention.

[dubbel zout]

56 minutes ago, LilWharveyGal said:

I think the reality of a relationship with the actual David would have bored Andrew and eventually gone south.

I agree. Once Andrew realized David wasn't interested in all the flashy trappings, I think Andrew would have dumped him.

[sashayshante]

The really alarming thing is that - if I followed all the articles I read correctly - Andrew and David had only spent that one night together. My heart broke a little for Andrew when David said, "I get the feeling you haven't had many great nights like that." That line was so spot on. Andrew had developed this intense attachment to David after only meeting him once,likely because David was such a kind person and showed genuine interest in Andrew.

Ugh. Madson's death really was the most tragic of the five. He seemed really pure and kind.

[Duke2801]

This was a good episode and I’m enjoying this season overall. I hate the character of Andrew - he makes my skin crawl. So kudos to DC for playing him so well. Sad to say I’ve known some delusional narcissists like him in real life (hopefully they did NOT end up to be murderers too- yikes)

 

On 3/1/2018 at 8:29 AM, icemiser69 said:

At least no one died in this episode.

I like "Self Control", much more so than "Gloria".  Laura Branigan had one hell of a voice.  She died at such a young age.

I do wonder if Andrew had been much more honest with David about his past, if much of the carnage could have been avoided.  David could see through Andrew's bullshit.

I don't get all of the love for lobster.  Isn't it just the insect of the sea?

Love Laura Branigan - including Gloria. She was 52 when she died, so while I wouldn’t say it’s a “young age” it’s definitely too young to die. 

Insect of the sea or not, I love me some lobster with lemon butter. Mmmm

On 3/1/2018 at 5:30 AM, Robert Lynch said:

Loved the 80s-90s music used here. Can I say the music used is great and kind of fits with the show in general! I was shocked to see Michael Louri here. He came a long way from Flashdance, did he? Darren Criss knows how to rock those 90s clothes. 

Michael Nouri. ? It was nice to see him. Hes still handsome as an older man, too. 

[bosawks]

This series is almost like a celebration of the ordinary, of the truth and of hard work and of being who you are without pretense.

Also, Annaleigh Ashford should be worked into the Ryan Murphy repertory company.

[helenamonster]

2 hours ago, LilWharveyGal said:

Frankly, based on what we're seeing I'm not even convinced that Andrew had feelings for David, but rather an idealized version of David and the fantasy relationship he'd built up in his mind.  I think the reality of a relationship with the actual David would have bored Andrew and eventually gone south.

I thought the exact same thing. David was definitely a rising star in the architecture world and would have probably done very well for himself if he'd gotten the chance, but he seemed like a relatively lowkey guy who would have been fine living a normal life. I mean, we already saw that his idea of a fun night out was going to a polka club. Kind of quirky and definitely fun, but not remotely glamorous. Even if David had decided to become more serious, that relationship would definitely have crumbled after one too many hissy fits from Andrew about how "boring" David was.

I also found it interesting how Andrew wanted Jeff and David to lie about their respective careers, but Jeff and David were much more comfortable telling the truth and actually ended up hitting it off. Andrew seemed completely oblivious about how most people would rather be with someone they could connect with honestly than someone who just buys them a bunch of extravagant gifts.

21 minutes ago, bosawks said:

Also, Annaleigh Ashford should be worked into the Ryan Murphy repertory company.

I wasn't familiar with her before this show but she has been a delight.

[Quiet1ne]

2 hours ago, sashayshante said:

The really alarming thing is that - if I followed all the articles I read correctly - Andrew and David had only spent that one night together. My heart broke a little for Andrew when David said, "I get the feeling you haven't had many great nights like that." That line was so spot on. Andrew had developed this intense attachment to David after only meeting him once,likely because David was such a kind person and showed genuine interest in Andrew.

Ugh. Madson's death really was the most tragic of the five. He seemed really pure and kind.

Andrew and David dated long distance for 4-6 months or so and neither were exclusive.  Andrew would not give David his phone number (he did not want Norman to answer) or address but would send David postcards from everywhere he went.

[Blakeston]

On 2/28/2018 at 11:51 PM, hoodooznoodooz said:

I don't know if it's because they showed the story in reverse chron, or if the director told DC to play it like this, but I still don't see any charm or charisma. 

I see a supreme a---ole. That is all.

I wonder if they're going to show us the night at the casino that David described - in which Andrew had everyone laughing hysterically, and was the life of the party. 

Thus far, we haven't seen that side of him at all. It's hard to even picture it. So many people who knew him IRL say that he was very fun - maybe they're intentionally keeping that side of him hidden from us, so that it will be more shocking when we see it? I guess we'll find out.

[J.D.]

There's a 20/20 special on right now about Cunanan and his victims.  It's almost over but it will air again tonight at 11:00 p.m. EST.

[heatherchandler]

23 minutes ago, J.D. said:

There's a 20/20 special on right now about Cunanan and his victims.  It's almost over but it will air again tonight at 11:00 p.m. EST.

Nice!  Found it on ID.  Gotta love ID channel.

I just need to say that my obsession with Finn Wittrock has only gotten worse watching this show.  He is so good in this!  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Quiet1ne said:

Andrew and David dated long distance for 4-6 months or so and neither were exclusive.  Andrew would not give David his phone number (he did not want Norman to answer) or address but would send David postcards from everywhere he went.

I read the postcards in the FBI reports and they were written versions of Andrew presenting only the most fabulous braggy depiction of his life. I didn’t see any correspondence from David so I’m not sure how enthusiastically he replied to Andrew (if at all) over those months).

2 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I wasn't familiar with her before this show but she has been a delight.

She was great on Masters of Sex!

[TheGourmez]

Great insight into Cunanan's mother at the episode's end, @Sarah D. Bunting! You had me cringing at the traits she shares with my own mother and Andrew - hearing the story she wants to her, only honing in on what she wants her reality to be. Luckily, mine comes without the sponge baths and murderous rage.

Edited March 4, 2018 by TheGourmez

[MaryWebGirl]

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I read the postcards in the FBI reports and they were written versions of Andrew presenting only the most fabulous braggy depiction of his life.

Interesting. So basically primitive social media. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

I wonder if all these people who claim that Andrew was fun to spend time with were only enjoying the fact that he paid for everything, with Norman’s money.  

[vixenbynight]

7 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I wonder if all these people who claim that Andrew was fun to spend time with were only enjoying the fact that he paid for everything, with Norman’s money.  

That is a very good point to bring up. I believe that some of these people, had known AC from before his time with Norman (even during their high school years), so I do at times wonder if they have looked back on their relationships with AC and think "Would I have really been his friend IF he wasn't paying for everything?"

[MamaMax]

OMG. I had no idea that Versace's lover was being played by RICKY MARTIN. Did not recognize him AT ALL!!

[Chaos Theory]

On 3/4/2018 at 2:52 PM, vixenbynight said:

That is a very good point to bring up. I believe that some of these people, had known AC from before his time with Norman (even during their high school years), so I do at times wonder if they have looked back on their relationships with AC and think "Would I have really been his friend IF he wasn't paying for everything?"

He was voted “most likely to be remembered”  in his high school yearbook. By all accounts and this was confirmed by several sources Andrew was a liar but before he blew up he was a fun guy to be around.  

[phantom]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

He was voted “most likely to be remembered”  in his high school yearbook. By all accounts and this was confirmed by several sources Andrew was a liar but before he blew up he was a fun guy to be around.  

I keep thinking back to the flashback scene in the first episode, when he is living with the married couple. His giggling, giddy stories of rubbing shoulders with celebrities and meeting Versace clearly entertained his female BFF even if she knew it always bulls**t when it came to Andrew. As viewers we are perpetually poisoned knowing how the story ends, unlike everyone he knew in the earlier years. Someone who was the life of the party, bought the drinks and was always up for a good time could be forgiven a lot of seemingly inconsequential lies. There was also probably a lot of churning of social circles too so unlike the birthday scene, there were rarely too many people who knew ALL the lies he told.

The juxtaposition between Norman (who lived) and Lee Miglin (who died), was heartbreaking.  Both were willing to indulge a petulant younger man for companionship. But Norman had firm boundaries and friends willing to protect him.  Andrew knew Lee was far more vulnerable being so tightly closeted. I wonder if Norman felt survivor guilt?

Edited March 6, 2018 by phantom

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, phantom said:

I wonder if Norman felt survivor guilt?

Did Norman and Lee Miglin know each other IRL? If not, I would think Norman would feel a gigantic sense of relief that he got Andrew out of his life when he did. I'm sure Norman was horrified at Andrew's actions and felt awful for the men who died. 

[phantom]

11 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Did Norman and Lee Miglin know each other IRL? If not, I would think Norman would feel a gigantic sense of relief that he got Andrew out of his life when he did. I'm sure Norman was horrified at Andrew's actions and felt awful for the men who died. 

I'm sure Norman felt terrible- he seemed to be a decent guy.  It was more rhetorical musing on my part about what it must have been like to know you could have been one of his victims but were not. It makes me think that Andrew's killing was not pre-meditated before he traveled to Minneapolis. Or he considered Norman a burned bridge he could no longer manipulate.

[dubbel zout]

49 minutes ago, phantom said:

It makes me think that Andrew's killing was not pre-meditated before he traveled to Minneapolis.

I agree. Minneapolis seemed like a last-ditch effort to get David back, and when Andrew realized David and Jeff were seeing each other, something snapped. Everything snowballed horribly from there, with Andrew possibly realizing his charms weren't working anymore, or at least not working on the people he wanted them to work on. And that fed his anger that his life wasn't what he wanted it to be.

[DangerousMinds]

David and Jeff never dated.

[sashayshante]

39 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

David and Jeff never dated.

There was talk they were casual lovers. I happen to think they were.   That would explain the Andrew's rage. What I want to know is who was it that screamed, "Get the fuck out!" right before the thumping and thrashing began in Madson's apartment. Some say Madson wasn't home during Jeff's attack. Why would Jeff be telling Andrew to leave David's apartment? It had to be David, no?

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, sashayshante said:

There was talk they were casual lovers. I happen to think they were.   That would explain the Andrew's rage.

From the various fact-checking articles linked to in these threads, I gather that JT and DM both had their own boyfriends at the time of the murders; JT went away with his during the weekend of AC's visit, while the series shows DM being with another guy, status unclear. Which does not preclude the two hooking at one time, only to decide they worked better as friends or acquaintances. I remember the book being at best inconclusive on that point.

But I do not think that is was necessary for the guys to be lovers factually for AC to start on his rampage. For a mythomaniac like he was from all indications, once he became convinced that the beautiful fantasy he had constructed has been jeopardized beyond repair by the alleged actions of others, casting himself as the victim in his imagined scenario, that might very well be trigger enough to set him off on a rage. It did not need to be true; it just required him to believe it was true, thus justifying in his mind his subsequent actions, against people and a world who had "wasted" him.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Florinaldo

[vixenbynight]

20 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

From the various fact-checking articles linked to in these threads, I gather that JT and DM both had their own boyfriends at the time of the murders; JT went away with his during the weekend of AC's visit, while the series shows DM being with another guy, status unclear. Which does not preclude the two hooking at one time, only to decide they worked better as friends or acquaintances. I remember the book being at best inconclusive on that point.

But I do not think that is was necessary for the guys to be lovers factually for AC to start on his rampage. For a mythomaniac like he was from all indications, once he became convinced that the beautiful fantasy he had constructed has been jeopardized beyond repair by the alleged actions of others, casting himself as the victim in his imagined scenario, that might very well be trigger enough to set him off on a rage.

I agree with you on the above. Especially in regards to how AC was on his rampage. He had nothing left live for OR to keep up his facade. David told him that whatever he was determined to try to do in order to create a future with him was not going to happen, almost a year before Andrew murdered him and Jeff. I think that Andrew felt like he had been "betrayed" by David not wanting his love and by Jeff for his "betrayal" of supposedly turning David from him to Jeff. 

Again, it is always someone else's fault that Andrew wasn't able to get what and who he wanted.

Also, if Jeff and David had fallen in love with one another and had chosen to be together, they still did not deserve to be killed by Andrew. 

They did not use him.

Edited March 7, 2018 by vixenbynight

[vixenbynight]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

I'm sure Norman felt terrible- he seemed to be a decent guy.  It was more rhetorical musing on my part about what it must have been like to know you could have been one of his victims but were not. It makes me think that Andrew's killing was not pre-meditated before he traveled to Minneapolis. Or he considered Norman a burned bridge he could no longer manipulate.

I think the opposite: I think that Andrew felt like this one-way trip to "visit" two people that both had made efforts to distance themselves from him and their connection with him was the final act for him. I think that he was determined to kill Jeff, because he saw him as the guy, who "took" David from him, even when that was not the case at all. 

David's murder was Andrew saying that "If he couldn't have him, nobody else would be able or allowed to have David at all."

Andrew was truly selfish and a user at his core. He wanted everybody to placate him, to appreciate him and his "generosity", but that came from him using other people's generosity, money and means towards him.

[TobinAlbers]

Jeff needing to move away from San Diego because seeing the ships in the naval yard gutted him was so damn sad. That poor man just wanted to live his life and serve his country.

Boy howdy did Norman dodge a huge bullet with Andrew. He lived to tell the tale.

I'm in love with Cody and Finn. I need them and Darren in a musical rom com so we can see these men in a happier romantic triangle where one couple is happy in the end.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/1/2018 at 12:48 AM, pennben said:

I was disappointed with that......of course it's the mother's "fault" (I'm not saying you said that, just the show, of course, portrayed it that way).  Of course.  How predictable. 

 

I agree.  I know everyone felt bad for Andrew in the scenes with his mom, but I felt just as bad, if not worse, for his mom.  The terrible marriage/divorce to her horrible husband; her husband ruining the family financially, selling the house out from under them, and fleeing to the Philippines in disgrace; her son feeding her crazy stories about his fabulous life; etc....I can see how she kind of cracked.  I'm not saying she (and her ex-husband) didn't spoil and encourage Andrew's delusions of grandeur, but there's a lot more that happened in their lives and Andrew's childhood than "overbearing-mom-who-thinks-her-son-is-perfect is at 'fault' for her son becoming a killer."  It's a tired trope. It's also far too simplistic of an answer, as it fails to acknowledge the woman's own personal tragedies that made her how she is/was, ignores any real medical issues (mental illnesses) she had during a time when mental health care was even less accessible/affordable than it is today, and fails to lay any "fault" at the feet of other family members (cough, the dad, cough). 

And whatever, plenty of people have crappy childhoods and mentally ill parents, but most do NOT grow up to be raging narcissists and spree killers.  Moms (especially single moms) get blamed for everything, even things other adults do.  The fault for Andrew's choices ultimately is his own as an adult; he made those choices.  Many people with far rough childhoods have made better ones. 

(Reiterating what @pennben said above....I'm not saying other posters are laying blame/fault all on Mrs. Cunanan, just that this episode portrayed it this way.)

Edited March 8, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Eulipian 5k]

On 3/1/2018 at 4:39 AM, vixenbynight said:

The character's name was Gallo and he was fabulous. OMG. It was like a one man chorus of telling the real truth about Andrew

Reminds me of Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in The Talented Mr Ripley", as a matter of fact AC is living out that movie. Though Matt Damon did not come across as the a$$hole AC is.

I was hoping our Navy "officer" would punch him out over the postcard home to his dad. But then I remembered that he was killed with the hammer in episode 2(?), drat. The Versace scenes are the only glimpses of a decent human being in this saga, and he too has been dead since Episode 1, double drat.

[andromeda331]

The Olympics put me behind on a lot of shows I'm still playing catch up. Another good episode it does amaze me how Andrew doesn't realize how weird he is. Trying to get Jeff to lie for him, toss his gift aside and give him a gift he wanted Jeff to give him but in front of David of course. His constant need to lie about everything all the time. Even when Jeff tries in the hotel room to get him to say something truthful he still can't do it or won't do it. Giving that ridiculous list to Norman and demanding the list and somehow thinking he's going to get it.  I wish Norman had told him off instead off offering to increase the allowance and pay for him to return to college. I did love Norman did research on Andrew and when Andrew gets angry about it pointing out that Andrew did the same thing. I loved the guy Gallo who correctly called him too lazy to work but too proud to be kept. I have loved each person who tells him how they got where they are by hard work.     

Edited March 14, 2018 by andromeda331

[vixenbynight]

On 3/9/2018 at 10:36 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

Reminds me of Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in The Talented Mr Ripley", as a matter of fact AC is living out that movie. Though Matt Damon did not come across as the a$$hole AC is.

Well, I think that in 1999 film version of "The Talented Mr. Ripley" the director Anthony Minghella wanted the audience to understand Ripley's desire, motivation and need to advance himself and his surroundings. I vividly recall wanting Ripley to find peace and happiness with Peter Smith-Kingsley. Sigh.

I do not think that Murphy and the writers want the audience to find any sort of understanding and empathy with Cununan's actions and behavior. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by vixenbynight

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, vixenbynight said:

Well, I think that in 1999 film version of "The Talented Mr. Ripley" the director Anthony Minghella wanted the audience to understand Ripley's desire, motivation and need to advance himself and his surroundings. I vividly recall wanting Ripley to find peace and happiness with Peter Smith-Kingsley. Sigh.

 

John Malkovich's take on Ripley years later is closer to AC, in being a deliberate killer.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Upthread some people thought Andrew was being very demanding when he told Norman that he wanted a new Mercedes. Several of the articles I read said that prior to that, Norman had already given Andrew a brand new Infiniti (one of the FBI reports said Andrew later sold the Infiniti when he was running out of money). I'm not justifying Andrew asking for a Mercedes, but in his mind it wasn't out of the question since Norman had already bought him a car earlier in their "relationship" (they were together for about two years).

[aradia22]

I liked this episode. It was nice to see some glamour again after the killing spree episodes. The writing was a little on the nose but allowing for that it was sharp and dramatic. It was almost like a play like "these are our themes" the way they talked so openly about Andrew wanting to be someone who could be loved, etc. and his negotiation with Norman. I'm not sure I love the turn this took. I feel like the way they framed his pursuit of David it makes the character of Andrew more sympathetic, even as you know what's coming. Also, the way it was framed like his disappointments drove him to drugs, especially the scene where he was turned onto harder drugs. I guess for my taste there wasn't enough emphasis on how this love story was in Andrew's head and no one was making him do anything. There's a bit of it but it's stronger in the following episodes and I just go back to not loving the backwards storytelling. Or maybe it's that characters like Jeff and David are not even as dynamic as Norman. Norman didn't shout but he had a strength of presence. I feel like David did reject Andrew but you only got there when you got there. He's a bit flat. I do like how the episode kept me on my toes and I wasn't quite sure where it was going to go. It doesn't hand hold you in that sense with the narrative structure or tons of exposition. But I did find the camera slightly off... it was either unintentional or what they were intending did not work for me.