S03.E11: Nathaniel and I Are Just Friends!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Rebecca faces some fears in therapy while Paula brings a new friend to work.

Promo:

[Spartan Girl]

Wow. That ending was kind of heartbreaking, and I don't even ship Nathaniel and Rebecca that much. It's just sad that Rebecca is so afraid of what she's capable of that she doesn't think she deserves being in any kind of relationship. Hopefully that will change.

Was not expecting the 8-month time skip, though it makes sense to speed up Heather's pregnancy. Man, Hector is a champ for supporting her through her stir-craziness.

Valencia's dating another woman now? Right on!

Dog Josh is my favorite Josh.

Next week, Trent, ugh. Perhaps it's a double standard to judge his stalking in light of Rebecca's stalking, but Rebecca is getting better. Trent is just a creepy Nice Guy.

[srpturtle80]

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but somewhere along the way I completely fell in love with Rebecca and Nathaniel. It hurt my heart to watch that ending. I'm really not sure where they are going with this, and I am scared to find out.

I loathe Trent so I am not looking forward to his return.

[DianeDobbler]

It couldn't be clearer that CEG sees Rebecca and Nathaniel as a legitimate end game relationship as long as they "honestly admit their feelings" which, again, presents the relationship, opposite to every other Rebecca relationship. The show is telling us he's the one, via the trope that she's extra cautious and self-protective due to her diagnosis. But he's the one. IMO it's annoying. They have completely flipped the script of the first two and a half seasons. But ok. 

And. Ok, so Valencia is bi. No song. No story. Absolutely nothing. If I were Gabrielle Ruiz, I'd be so fucking pissed. WHY NOT a story or a song? 

Edited February 3, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[meatball77]

Dog Josh is amazing.  He does look like Josh and White Josh.  Valencia having a girlfriend is great but she does need a song about it.  I'm glad they did the time jump so we could fast forward through the pregnancy.  I'm hoping for a big musical number during the birth.

[DianeDobbler]

Just now, meatball77 said:

Dog Josh is amazing.  He does look like Josh and White Josh.  Valencia having a girlfriend is great but she does need a song about it.  I'm glad they did the time jump so we could fast forward through the pregnancy.  I'm hoping for a big musical number during the birth.

 

I'm just - for God's sake, they gave the temp who replaced Rebecca a song. They've given Dr. Avakian a bunch of songs. Not only is Gabrielle Ruiz primarily a singer/dancer and terrific at it; she's a series regular, not recurring. But fuck nothing. They do a poop song, but not a song about when she discovers she's bisexual? Why are she and Vincent Rodriguez II even still on CEG?

[AmandaPanda]

1 hour ago, srpturtle80 said:

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but somewhere along the way I completely fell in love with Rebecca and Nathaniel. It hurt my heart to watch that ending. I'm really not sure where they are going with this, and I am scared to find out.

I loathe Trent so I am not looking forward to his return.

I'm right there with you. I think they're setting it up for Nathaniel to be her first truly adult relationship. She almost got there with Greg, but she kept getting pulled into Josh's vortex. Now, Nathaniel has been there to support her through 8 months of therapy without really being in a "relationship." But first, Rebecca needs to love herself because she can let someone love her. That last scene between her and Dr. Akopian broke my heart. When she was talking about being afraid of herself and what she knows she can do when she's feeling abandoned, I was completely riveted. 

I can't believe there's only 2 episodes left this season. 

[possibilities]

I love that Valencia is in a relationship with another woman and I hope (1) it lasts, (2) they develop it more, including with song.

Other than that, I hated this episode and was seriously thinking maybe I am going to stop watching the show. They're leaning on EVERY TROPE with Heather's pregnancy, Paula's bitchiness, and ESPECIALLY Nathaniel. It's making me angry. It's like they decided all that feminism and subversive stuff was just silly, and only applied when Rebecca was off her meds and crazy. Now that she's getting healthy, she needs the rich white dirtbag with a heart of gold, and preggo bitches be crazy, and powerful women in the workplace don't know how to act becuz they're insecure and have no social or managerial skillz becuz all that lady empathy and common sense goes up in smoke if they think too much , I guess.

Vomit.

Edited February 3, 2018 by possibilities

[DianeDobbler]

Quote

 

They're leaning on EVERY TROPE with Heather's pregnancy, Paula's bitchiness, and ESPECIALLY Nathaniel. It's making me angry. It's like they decided all that feminism and subversive stuff was just silly, and only applied when Rebecca was off her meds and crazy. Now that she's getting healthy, she needs the rich white dirtbag with a heart of gold, and preggo bitches be crazy, and powerful women in the workplace don't know how to act becuz they're insecure and have no social or managerial skillz becuz all that lady empathy and common sense goes up in smoke if they think too much , I guess.

Vomit.

 

I'm doubling down on that opinion. Oh look, the healthy, feminist thing is to get with the basic white male lead! Just get the courage to embrace your true feelings for the WASP leading man with the heart of gold! That's your healthy route! We've just flipped the entire script of the show!

Fuck that.

And still beyond pissed about Valencia. And Paula.

[bleiby73]

7 hours ago, srpturtle80 said:

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but somewhere along the way I completely fell in love with Rebecca and Nathaniel. It hurt my heart to watch that ending. I'm really not sure where they are going with this, and I am scared to find out.

I loathe Trent so I am not looking forward to his return.

I'm right there with you in the unpopular opinion. I don't care that Nathaniel is rich and white- their relationship and interaction feels very sincere to me. I was sobbing when Dr. Akopian was trying to convince Rebecca she deserved love. Rachel Bloom's acting was incredible in that therapy scene. I'm actually glad Trent is back next episode. Need an episode of silliness as a palate cleanser after all that emotion.

[BonnieD]

I dont think they're done withe Valencia, and trust she will get a storyline and song all her own very soon about her new relationship.
I still love Scott Michael Foster due to Greek and will literally watch him in anything he's in so I root for him  to stay in the cast. (ok, I lie. I did not watch the short-lived Texas family soap drama a couple of years back. Blood and Oil or something?) But maybe there is no end game romantic relationship for Rebecca. That's not really the point of her story. Again I trust the writers to  go in an unconventional direction.

[seacliffsal]

I was really surprised that Rebecca's therapist told her that she was much more stable.  I really don't see the growth that both Rebecca and the therapist were referencing.  I think Rebecca is still really dependent on validating herself through other people rather than from herself.  She has also continued to act out in inappropriate ways.  Maybe I'm supposed to think it's cute that they have sex in the supply closet, but I don't.  Highly impulsive and inappropriate.  Save it until after work...

I am super glad that they time jumped the pregnancy story line as I am totally ready for that to be over.  Loved the details at the baby shower though.

Also loved Dog Josh...

[Empress1]

On the shallow, while Rebecca’s black floral dress was a little too cocktail for work, it’s one of the best things she’s worn. The blue v-neck shirt was good too. V-necks are a friend to large busts, speaking from experience.

I was surprised Paula didn’t know she was hard on people at work. I thought she embraced it!

I didn’t know Dr. Akopian had those pipes!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

More Dog Josh, please!

I think the fact that Rebecca recognizes how self destructive she can be when she becomes obsessed and feels abandoned shows that she is making progress. She knows what her triggers are and she can verbalize what her fears are, which also shows her growing self-awareness. I don't necessarily think that she should be in a relationship with Nathaniel right now (I keep thinking about how they tell people in AA not to get involved with anyone for the first year of their sobriety), BUT what Dr. Akopian was all true - Rebecca deserves love and she needs to believe that.

I'm fine with the time jump because I did not need to see nine months of Heather being pregnant. Valencia is getting better at event planning based on how cute the baby shower looked.

While I support any kind of volunteer work that people do, I know several people like White Josh who have gone to Mexico to build houses with Habitat for Humanity (which usually costs a couple thousand dollars for a week) and I always wonder why they don't just volunteer to work on local Habitat houses and donate that $2K. I guess I get it more with White Josh since he wanted to get out of town, but even when I was a broke college student I was able to volunteer at local Habitat houses on the weekend. The only thing it cost me was the gas to drive to the build sites. No, you don't get to see the entire house get built in a week but you still get to do something good, you still get to meet the family who will be living in the house when it's completed, etc.

[DianeDobbler]

It wasn't said directly, but I think that White Josh wanted to get out of the country and away from Darryl. My mother, though, used to volunteer for Habitat locally. 

Felt they've been skimping on songs. There was a reprise this episode, and Dr. Akopian's was the only full on number. As great as she was in it - and the actress was terrific - I enjoyed her delivery of "I charge $250/hour now." the absolute most. It's worthy of her audition reel  - if that sort of thing is still done. Fantastic. I remember Bloom saying she was one of the actresses who auditioned for Paula.

I didn't like the treatment of Paula in this episode because they didn't make it clear if the work she was criticizing deserved criticism or not. Like many people here, I know a lot of lawyers, and minus the sarcasm, her critiques seemed valid to me. I don't like the idea that having standards of work quality is somehow unfair. Until it was presented as a knock on her, I thought her criticism of shoddy work was a long-awaited (to me) look at how far she's come in her progress to become a lawyer, and was showing us she's going to be a great one.

Edited February 4, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[theatremouse]

13 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

 They do a poop song, but not a song about when she discovers she's bisexual? Why are she and Vincent Rodriguez II even still on CEG?

We don't know that she "discovered" she was bisexual at all in the span of this episode. We know the audience was presented matter of factly with her 8 months later in a relationship with a woman. We already got Darryl's giant "I'm bi!" song. I don't need another, and actually appreciated how it was presented without comment with Valencia. I do want to see her get more song/dance numbers, but I don't need one of this topic since the show already did that. I liked how not a big deal it was with V and new-blonde-lady.

4 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I was really surprised that Rebecca's therapist told her that she was much more stable.  I really don't see the growth that both Rebecca and the therapist were referencing. 

I think they skipped so much time there's no way for us to know if she's more stable now, or at least wasn't at the point when Akopian said it.

[DianeDobbler]

I will change the "she" to "we" but if we don't know how long she's known, how come we don't?

It was a big deal because Valencia has been completely underwritten this entire season. The one song she got was about poop and didn't really further whatever her individual arc may be. Her song didn't have to be about being bi, it could be about taking chances, or feeling great her business and love life is going well, etc. It just stuck out to me that she made big steps forward - her business started working and she got a romantic interest, with absolutely no writing. Whereas compare it to the treatment Heather's job progress, personal growth and love life has been given. It was just completely obvious how marginalized she is and I don't get it. Also don't get why they bring out Vincent Rodriguez III just to make a joke about "Have we shown you lately how dumb Josh actually is?"

Edited February 3, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[srpturtle80]

6 hours ago, Empress1 said:

On the shallow, while Rebecca’s black floral dress was a little too cocktail for work, it’s one of the best things she’s worn. The blue v-neck shirt was good too. V-necks are a friend to large busts, speaking from experience.

Agreed. I thought Rachel looked stunning in both. 

 

I forgot to mention last night that I loved the conversation between Rebecca and Nathaniel about office supplies, and how the three observers were watching and moving their heads back and forth lol. 

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

I will change the "she" to "we" but if we don't know how long she's known, how come we don't?

It was a big deal because Valencia has been completely underwritten this entire season. The one song she got was about poop and didn't really further whatever her individual arc may be. Her song didn't have to be about being bi, it could be about taking chances, or feeling great her business and love life is going well, etc. It just stuck out to me that she made big steps forward - her business started working and she got a romantic interest, with absolutely no writing. Whereas compare it to the treatment Heather's job progress, personal growth and love life has been given. It was just completely obvious how marginalized she is and I don't get it. Also don't get why they bring out Vincent Rodriguez III just to make a joke about "Have we shown you lately how dumb Josh actually is?"

Josh either needs to be written out or have his role officially downgraded, if that's all they're going to do with him. I actually would be interested in watching him try to find himself, but the show doesn't seem invested in showing that.

[whiporee]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

It was a big deal because Valencia has been completely underwritten this entire season. The one song she got was about poop and didn't really further whatever her individual arc may be. Her song didn't have to be about being bi, it could be about taking chances, or feeling great her business and love life is going well, etc. It just stuck out to me that she made big steps forward - her business started working and she got a romantic interest, with absolutely no writing.

I see your point, but what six minutes of this episode do you want to give up for it? Over the course of the series, Heather's had even less storyline than Valencia, and while people may not like the pregnancy plot line, it has shown a lot of growth for a character who has been at least as important as Valencia. Valencia's been highlighted two or three times while Heather hasn't. Showing it the way you want would mean making it a major arc -- just like showing the duration of Heather's pregnancy or White Josh's return from Mexico or anything like that would require exposition and, more importantly, screen time. I just don't think they had it -- they worked hard in the pre-jump to show that Valencia was making a connection with someone who does what Valencia needs, which is appreciate her, just like they showed WJ's need to get out of town. Or Paula's expectations of her pal. That's what time jumps are for -- that we can assume the character followed the progression they were one without having to actually show the entire voyage. 

And too be fair, Valencia's always been a one-or-two note character. She developed a smidge of depth along the way, but she's mostly been comic relief/established character foil for most of her appearances. Her easing into what appears to be a comfortable life seems a lot more fitting than trying to escalate her importance this late in the game. 

[femmefan1946]

Until it was presented as a knock on her, I thought her criticism of shoddy work was a long-awaited (to me) look at how far she's come in her progress to become a lawyer,

But Sumil (?) pointed out that her criticism was based on the fonts and layouts used, not on the actual work itself.

On the shallow, while Rebecca’s black floral dress was a little too cocktail for work, it’s one of the best things she’s worn. The blue v-neck shirt was good too.

That v-neck, sleeveless, A-line to full skirt is Rebecca's go -to look.
I loved that dress too. The costuming department is brilliant at choosing clothing that tells us about the characters. Darryl's beige suits over Nathanie's dark blue or black. Maya's skirt suits-- trying to project that she is an adult now. Dr. Akopian's signature necklaces and shawl project a planned bohemianism. Paula's WalMart polyester.

[DianeDobbler]

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

I see your point, but what six minutes of this episode do you want to give up for it? Over the course of the series, Heather's had even less storyline than Valencia, and while people may not like the pregnancy plot line, it has shown a lot of growth for a character who has been at least as important as Valencia. Valencia's been highlighted two or three times while Heather hasn't. 

 

That's not how I remember it at all. Heather's had a lot more material than Valencia all along, particularly the material moving her out of her student status.  Valencia had material in S1 when Rebecca was befriending her and in denial, and then that one time in S2 when the two girls then went and stalked Anna. Heather had her own separate storyline with Greg, including pillow talk and going with Greg to visit his family at Xmas. We've met her parents and been in her parents' home. She becomes Rebecca's new roommate and a built-in talk to. She had a solo focused on being finished w/school. We go with her as she moves onto a new job and establishes a new relationship, and is then further brought into the show's central story - Darryl's desire for a baby. Valencia hasn't had close to that much material. The lack of writing for her has become incredibly conspicuous this season, almost on par with why on earth is Josh still on? I, too, would be willing to see Josh develop but he's written as a one-note joke- oh let's show him be dim witted.

I agree that Valencia is WRITTEN as a one or two note character when there is no reason for it. Why keep her? She was supposed to be a 2 episode character and the show made her a regular. All the characters are what is written for them. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[Kirsty]

On 03/02/2018 at 4:54 AM, DianeDobbler said:

Just get the courage to embrace your true feelings for the WASP leading man with the heart of gold! That's your healthy route! We've just flipped the entire script of the show!

Yeah, maybe that's what's happened. But it hasn't been healthy so far. I expected Nathaniel to split with Mona way sooner, because he never wanted to end his relationship with Rebecca the first time around. But no! He cheated for eight whole months, and I guess he's still in a serious relationship with Mona? As the show didn't bother to explore why he stayed with Mona while hooking up with Rebecca, I can only assume it's because he's a shitheel. And also that it's not of major importance to the show, because he's of secondary importance to the show.

It's about Rebecca and her issues. That scene where she told her therapist why she's afraid of a real relationship with Nathaniel was great. And if the show needs to use Nathaniel to explore her issues, why not? It doesn't mean that Dr. Akopian thinks Nathaniel is the one. She's just trying to encourage Rebecca to take a risk with someone she has feelings for. I enjoy Scott Michael Foster as part of the cast but I'm not counting on a HEA for Rebecca/Nathaniel. I thought the show might end with an ensemble song and dance number tbh.

That said, I wouldn't mind if the issues and fears Rebecca has to deal with in therapy were about other aspects of her life too, not just her love life. Maybe that's the point of the baby plot? I'm still puzzling over that one but maybe the baby's arrival will send the show in a new direction.

This episode was a surprise. Valencia is dating someone who looks like she could be Elisabeth Moss's older sister!

Edited to correct all the names I got wrong!

Edited February 4, 2018 by Kirsty

[Lebanna]

I... didn't like this episode. In fact, it was kind of like a whole different show from the one I used to love. There was barely even any singing.

I'm with White Josh, this Daryl's baby storyline is stupid and boring and adds nothing - I thought at least Heather carrying the kid could be interesting, but they hit every stereotypical pregnancy issue in this episode and her whole deal with her life suddenly becoming so perfect and normal is frankly dull and annoying.

Rebecca has literally been spinning in circles forever, illustrated again in this episode and whichever way this thing with Nathaniel goes, it just can't be that great now. They are not interesting, and Nathaniel is terrible.

I even felt like that scene with Rebecca and the therapist was kind of paint by numbers - oh we have to have some kind of deep revelation, let's do this one, it's easy. No, it's obvious. 

Was Paula always the 'Office Bitch' or did that just happen this episode? Because that seemed to pretty much come out of nowhere. I mean, she has legitimate complaints, it was just this episode where she was suddenly supposed to be unreasonable.

Valencia has a girlfriend suddenly and I guess we're all supposed to care about that? Even though there was no build up and we don't even know girlfriend's name?

Josh should have gone with White Josh to Mexico. They're not even really on this show anymore.

I feel like this thing is spinning out of the writers' control and they don't really know what to do with it anymore. I thought I was going to love this season, but this episode was actually pretty bad. I mean, Arrested Development season 4 bad. There's still the hint of something brilliant and the actors are giving it their all, but everyone and everything is so dispersed that it's hard to care.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Lebanna

[Empress1]

12 minutes ago, Lebanna said:

I... didn't like this episode. In fact, it was kind of like a whole different show from the one I used to love. There was barely even any singing.

I'm with White Josh, this Daryl's baby storyline is stupid and boring and adds nothing - I thought at least Heather carrying the kid could be interesting, but they hit every stereotypical pregnancy issue in this episode and her whole deal with her life suddenly becoming so perfect and normal is frankly dull and annoying.

Rebecca has literally been spinning in circles forever, illustrated again in this episode and whichever way this thing with Nathaniel goes, it just can't be that great now. They are not interesting, and Nathaniel is terrible.

I even felt like that scene with Rebecca and the therapist was kind of paint by numbers - oh we have to have some kind of deep revelation, let's do this one, it's easy. No, it's obvious. 

Was Paula always the 'Office Bitch' or did that just happen this episode? Because that seemed to pretty much come out of nowhere. I mean, she has legitimate complaints, it was just this episode where she was suddenly supposed to be unreasonable.

Valencia has a girlfriend suddenly and I guess we're all supposed to care about that? Even though there was no build up and we don't even know girlfriend's name?

Josh should have gone with White Josh to Mexico. They're not even really on this show anymore.

I feel like this thing is spinning out of the writers' control and they don't really know what to do with it anymore. I thought I was going to love this season, but this episode was actually pretty bad. I mean, Arrested Development season 4 bad. There's still the hit of something brilliant and the actors are giving it their all, but everyone and everything is so dispersed that it's hard to care.

I remember one episode where Paula was in charge of the office and a lot of work got done because she made them buckle down and do it, taking away Nerf guns and whatnot. And I was under the impression that a lot of the people in the office WERE incompetent, you know? I don't think it's bitchy to have standards and professionalism. The stuff with Sunil and the font is one thing, that's too nitpicky (unless he's using Comic Sans or something), but if the work is legit wrong, it needs to be right. Paula's delivery had a lot to be desired (although I know a lot of lawyers who talk about how verbally abusive some of the rainmakers at their firms are; they're allowed to be because they bring in a ton of business), but her criticisms weren't necessarily off base.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Lebanna said:

Josh should have gone with White Josh to Mexico.

I was really hoping he would.  Maybe he could have found some purpose in life by working with White Josh for Habitat for Humanity.

[DianeDobbler]

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

Yeah, maybe that's what's happened. But it hasn't been healthy so far. I expected Nathaniel to split with Simone way sooner, because he never wanted to end his relationship with Rebecca the first time around. But no! He cheated for eight whole months, and I guess he's still in a serious relationship with Simone? As the show didn't bother to explore why he stayed with Simone while hooking up with Rebecca, I can only assume it's because he's a shitheel. And also that it's not of major importance to the show, because he's of secondary importance to the show.e Elizabeth Moss's older sister!

2

I think he's moved into central importance, which is turning me off. That's what I meant by flipped the script. For two and a half seasons, Rebecca externalized her issues and romantically pursued Josh as the answer to her problems. She told herself when she had him, she'd be fulfilled. Now, with Nathaniel, although two episodes back we were told that's what she was doing (and she broke up with him), now it's flipped. CEG seems to be giving us the old trope message that two people don't admit their real feelings for each other to protect their vulnerability. And Rebecca will have really progressed in therapy when she's courageous enough to be vulnerable and risk getting hurt. This is a woman who has thrown herself at men all her life, and now she's over-corrected and depriving herself of the man she actually, healthily loves. Instead she's having an unhealthy affair and in denial about the depth of her feelings and desire for attachment. Nathaniel is dating his girlfriend for the same reason - it's a 'you go first' situation - they're both afraid of rejection. They each feel safer pretending it's just sex. Each starts to say what they feel, then cuts it short, so they misunderstand each other. It's now a very conventional show about two people who won't admit their real feelings, and I'm not here for it. In fact I'm confused. And, I must admit, that as good a fit as SMT is on CEG, I like that CEG is unconventional, so that THIS guy, rich, white, tall, handsome, with the requisite streak of insecurity and hidden heart of gold - is where she ends up when she's evolved psychologically - I do not like at all, and in fact am pissed, surprised and disappointed (in a fan way).

It feels that the show had a brilliant, very sure grasp of Rebecca's unraveling, and is leaning very hard on cliche, telling not showing, and writing to result as far as her recovery. That her recovery is being written as an obstacle to what feels like the show's REAL current center, the Rebecca/Nathaniel coupling, seems like a betrayal of its foundation.

Quote

Rebecca has literally been spinning in circles forever, illustrated again in this episode and whichever way this thing with Nathaniel goes, it just can't be that great now. They are not interesting, and Nathaniel is terrible.

Yeah, I agree. It's a double-pronged deal for me. I've seen shows sort of contradict themselves, or fall into traps, but I'd go along anyway because I liked the chemistry between the leads, or enjoyed whatever was on screen in a stand-alone kind of way, and would just edit out what came before, or any logical inconsistencies/implications. You know, just enjoy something in its own right. I don't find these two interesting or hot together. I have this weird split with SMT in that I think he handles his dialogue and his "beats" really well, and has good timing, but I don't give a shit about Nathaniel. I don't know why that is, it just is, and he certainly makes me care less about Rebecca, which is a problem. OTOH over the seasons the show has really kept it up with Dr. Avakian, and while I thought she was ok in the beginning, I just adore her now.

A side note that fonts are important at law firms. Most courts specify font and spacing - I imagine so that no lawyer does a 7 pt font squeezing a gazillion words into under ten pages. Got to control them and make sure they're succinct.  And outside of submissions, a lot of law firms give consideration to their fonts - Times New Roman is still the norm, but many are using Arial, I know a boutique place that uses Palatino, and a global firm that uses Georgia. But no matter what, it's usually standardized for consistency, so no, it's not really a nitpick. I was getting out of it that Paula was really on her game and was going to be an incredible lawyer since she's outpacing even lawyers in her grasp and scope, but nope. Office bitch. Alrighty.

Edited February 4, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[Agnes Bean]

Add me to the list of people who was disappointed with this episode. And this is coming from someone who actually likes Rebecca/Nathaniel. But I do not like the way they have progressed recently.

Quote

It feels that the show had a brilliant, very sure grasp of Rebecca's unraveling, and is leaning very hard on cliche, telling not showing, and writing to result as far as her recovery. That her recovery is being written as an obstacle to what feels like the show's REAL current center, the Rebecca/Nathaniel coupling, seems like a betrayal of its foundation.

Yes. This is spot on.

Quote

And I was under the impression that a lot of the people in the office WERE incompetent, you know? I don't think it's bitchy to have standards and professionalism. The stuff with Sunil and the font is one thing, that's too nitpicky (unless he's using Comic Sans or something), but if the work is legit wrong, it needs to be right.

I agree with your first point. Most of the co-workers have been written as pretty bad at their jobs, so it makes sense for Paula to take charge! And the episode was even internally inconsistent: at first Sunil said the other people were also doing good work, but then at the end he said they were idiots. Which is it?

And re: the font: I was actually bothered by that, too. They picked the wrong profession to use issues with font and margins as an example of a boss being unreasonable. There are plenty of courts that straight up won't accept documents that are submitted with the wrong font, margin, type of paper, etc., etc. Attention to detail on that kind of thing is something they drill into law students from the first semester on.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Agnes Bean

[theatremouse]

If this episode reinforced anything for me it's that I really don't give a shit about Nathaniel and would love to skip some of his screentime for Paula, Heather and Valencia, any day of the week. I'm so bored with him. And I miss them.

[quangtran]

Over the course of the series, Heather's had even less storyline than Valencia

That's not how I remember it at all.

The way I remember it, it was Heather who was underused in season one, while the writers gravitating towards using supposed guest stat Gabriel, hence her being upgraded for season 2. But in season 2, they Valencia was being used less because Gabriel was unavailable for the start of the season (she was on her honeymoon) and the shortened season meant she only had three episode with meaningful Valencia storylines.

Was Paula always the 'Office Bitch' or did that just happen this episode?

I'd say she was always the office bitch. Back in "Josh and I are Good People" (episode 5) she was acting boss and broke everyone's spirit. Sure the work was done, but any boss who angrily slams tables and sweeps people's stuff off their desk will be dubbed the office bitch.

And the episode was even internally inconsistent: at first Sunil said the other people were also doing good work, but then at the end he said they were idiots. Which is it?

They can be both. When Nathaniel threatened to fire them, Rebecca vouched for them as "semi-hard working people". And a case could be made that Jim and Maya were doing good work, they just needed constructive criticism about how Jim needed a better opening or how Maya was too thorough, not told that their work sucks.

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I don't think it's bitchy to have standards and professionalism.

It's not, necessarily.  But if you're responsible for giving feedback, there's something to be said about pointing out what is good and what needs improvement.  So for Sunil, if he puts in a lot of time and creates a good document but all she sees is the misused semi-colon, I could see how it doesn't endear her to her co-workers. 

And through Sunil, we got the POV of the others in the office in a way we don't normally.  The main characters don't respect the others in the office so we're sort of trained not to respect them or their perspectives either.  But since Paula has respected Sumil and his opinion, their POV is now offered to use in a way it hadn't been before.  

4 hours ago, Kirsty said:

As the show didn't bother to explore why he stayed with Simone while hooking up with Rebecca, I can only assume it's because he's a shitheel.

Exactly.  I think her name is Mona but it doesn't matter.  He used a woman as a way to facilitate the low-strings attachment Rebecca was willing to have.

I had read an episode description of a later episode which made me suspect we'd be skipping to the end of Heather's pregnancy but I didn't expect it to happen this week.  And with the way this was written, I'm wondering if the show is going to wrap this season.  I had heard the plan was for four seasons but it's almost like Rebecca denying herself this early is a way to open up to the possibility that she won't in the finale.

[holly4755]

Well, I was like the guy at the end of the supplies discussion who wanted to cry, it just made me so sad. 

[Yeah No]

On 2/2/2018 at 11:54 PM, DianeDobbler said:

I'm doubling down on that opinion. Oh look, the healthy, feminist thing is to get with the basic white male lead! Just get the courage to embrace your true feelings for the WASP leading man with the heart of gold! That's your healthy route! We've just flipped the entire script of the show!

Fuck that.

And still beyond pissed about Valencia. And Paula.

And here I was thinking this episode was about finding love....I was truly touched by the fact that they really seem to care about each other and it's not just about hot sex in the supply closet.

Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Nathaniel's ethnic background makes Rebecca's relationship with him either healthy or unhealthy depending on what that background is.  Nor do I think the show is making any statement about that either other than guys that at first look like they're the personification of evil can actually be nice AND healthy if one is healthy enough to meet them half way.  I don't think the show wants to make him look like the knight on the white horse, but to make it look like there is hope of them coming together as equals and being good for each other, if not now then one day.

I'm also a little tired of the show seeming compelled to represent every progressive relationship type in it as some kind of aspirational social statement.  I don't mind it if it feels organic and natural, but they go from Darryl going bi now to Valencia, seemingly overnight (at least to the audience) without any buildup or explanation or understanding of Valencia's growth into those feelings, etc.  Like it's just thrown in there without making it look believable enough as representing some kind of growth in the character.  I feel the same about Heather's casual offhand jump into surrogacy.  Like it's just something she would do out of the blue one day without any emotional soul searching.  Again, I wouldn't mind it if they made these things look more believable and not like a gratuitous effort to throw every progressive social statement into one TV series just to look cool and fresh or whatever they think they're doing.

[quangtran]

Can't agree with those two paragraphs together. If the show isn't making some heteronormative statement by having Rebecca and Nathaniel together, then the  same applies to them not making a progressive statement with Valencia and Beth. There's no attempts to be fresh and cool given that these are things that Rachel and Arline clearly believes in. They thought Josh SHOULD be Asian because it reflected Rachel's school having an Asian prom king and queen, and that wanted to show an actual Asian bros TV for once.

And the point to Heather is that she never does any soul searching. Everything she does is on a whim.

[Cranberry]

I kind of like that Valencia's relationship happened without any fanfare. Not every same-sex relationship has to be presented as some huge deal, you know? More of them should be shown as normal, everyday relationships, because they are. Plus, when I saw their first meeting and the blonde seemed flirty, I worried we were going to end up with some kind of sitcommy, "Oh, I thought we were business partners but you want to be partners partners" misunderstanding, so when the show flashed forward and they were actually together both personally and professionally, I was pleasantly surprised!

This Bustle article sheds a little more light on Valencia's sexuality and reveals that Valencia has a story coming up (the article isn't spoilery, though).

[Yeah No]

I just don't like the relationships in a TV show being seen as primarily a social statement based on the characters' social or ethnic background.  I saw a tendency in the show and in some of the posts here to discuss the relationships on the show primarily from that context and I don't believe that's what people really are all about deep down.  I prefer to see people and TV characters as individuals not as representatives or statements of some progressive ideology.  People fall in love with an individual and I don't see it as primarily about their or their partners' ethnic background or what that is seen to represent.  YMMV.

And most people don't just one day wake up and decide to go bi when they have never been or if they're characters on a show the audience never sees any backstory on it.  I don't find that believable.  It doesn't mean it's a "huge deal" to them or to anyone, but at the same time if it's not I don't think it should seem to come from nowhere.  I think it should be something the audience has had some knowledge of beforehand.  Just like one day if Paula woke up and decided she was bisexual and start lusting after a woman.  Like where would that come from all of a sudden?  With all that the audience has seen of her that would come out of the blue with no warning for the audience and seem arbitrary and pulled out of a hat just to make another story line or statement.  Just my opinion.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Yeah No

[possibilities]

We don't know that Valencia didn't know she was bi all along. All we know about her romantic life is that she was with Josh for a long time, then she wasn't, and she was bitter about how he treated her. We didn't know WhiteJosh was gay until we saw him with Darryl, either, because the subject never came up. But everyone in his life knew, and accepted it without fanfare, because they're not weird and uptight about this issue, and neither is WhiJo.

Coming out WAS a big deal for Darryl, who hadn't thought it through before, and that's realistic for some people. But not for everyone.

If Paula was attracted to a woman, I wouldn't consider it out of no where. Many people who are in a monogamous relationship are assumed by others to be exclusively attracted to whatever gender their partner is, even if that is not nor ever was true. Even single people in no relationship at all are often assumed to be heterosexual, just because a lot of straight people fill that assumption in when they meet someone, unless explicitly told otherwise. Unless you announce yourself, or fit a stereotype, most people will assume you are straight and monogamous, period.

The show having people who don't fit that description is only seen as making a statement because most shows don't represent the full spectrum of people and relationships, and lean heavily into a very small range of options. Getting to finally see a few people who don't fit the stereotypes is fun and interesting to some of us because it represents what we experience as real life more than the bland, repetitive fare usually provided on TV, which (at least to some of us) got boring decades ago and leaves out so much of what the real world has to offer.

I think the fact that some people find it distracting or boring or annoying to see a wider range of people, and others have the opposite reaction says more about the viewers than it says about the show.

Edited February 4, 2018 by possibilities

[DianeDobbler]

After Rebecca and Valencia got back from their day at Burning Man, or whatever that was, they were hanging at Home Base. Valencia scanned the bar and settled on a guy she wanted to pick up and take home, and she told Rebecca good night. So Josh was not her only sexual experience.

[tennisgurl]

Can I just say that I am pretty much over time jumps? Its gone from "unique and creative way to shake up the show" to "lazy way to move along plotlines without actually doing any work" from overuse. I mean, it isn't a show killer or anything, but it lost its excitement several TV seasons ago. 

I would have liked to have seen more of Valencia starting a new relationship with a woman, but I guess it doesn't bother me that much. We dont know that Valencia wasn't always bisexual, but she has mostly been with Josh, so who knows? Maybe it just never came up? I do wish they would give her more to do soon, she has been extremely underused, and has tons of potential as a character. 

I wasn't really a fan of Paula's story either mainly because I thought that also had potential that never went anywhere. Why is Paula being such a jerk? Just because? I wish they could have set up more about why she was being so weirdly demanding about minor details in a rude way. Is it because shes a woman who feels like she needs to overcompensate to be taken seriously? Is she unleashing some pent up aggression for her co-workers? Something else? There had to be something else.

I like Nathaniel and Rebecca, even if I dont think they are super healthy even on a good day. They have good chemistry, and even though Nathaniel is a rather cliche character (asshole WASP with a heart of gold and daddy issues) I still like him well enough. I kind of just want Rebecca to not have a love interesting for awhile, and then get to the romance later. 

I feel like the last few episodes have been skimping on the songs. 

[LisaM]

Who is doing the competent legal work at Bunch, Whitefeather (love it) to keep the firm afloat? Presumably Rebecca, Nathaniel and Darryl (?) are decent attorneys who can produce good work product. Tim, Maya and the other guy (whose name I cannot remember) have been shown to be complete idiots; I can't recall ever hearing of them producing good legal work. Now we have Sunil and Paula - did we know that they both actually graduated and became full-fledged attorneys? It's not such a huge firm that they can afford to carry a number of incompetent morons who can't do sufficient work to contribute to the bottom line. Also - where is George?

[Bruinsfan]

On 2/3/2018 at 7:37 AM, seacliffsal said:

I was really surprised that Rebecca's therapist told her that she was much more stable.  I really don't see the growth that both Rebecca and the therapist were referencing.  I think Rebecca is still really dependent on validating herself through other people rather than from herself.  She has also continued to act out in inappropriate ways.  Maybe I'm supposed to think it's cute that they have sex in the supply closet, but I don't.  Highly impulsive and inappropriate.  Save it until after work...

Yeah, this is the first time I've thought Dr. Akopian was way off base in her assessment of and advice to Rebecca. Rebecca's recognition of her own patterns and her concern about what re-enacting them would mean for her safety seemed fairly healthy to me. In the long run, Dr. Akopian is right about her deserving love and and a loving relationship being a big life goal, but I'm not seeing enough control of her impulsiveness to say that pooh-poohing her reservations in the present is the right course. Not to mention that the guy she's being encouraged to open up and make herself vulnerable to is clearly fine with cheating on another woman who's only thought they were in a serious monogamous relationship for the better part of a year. That should be a huge red flag to a therapist—he's objectively a less healthy choice than Josh or Greg, even if Rebecca herself in in a healthier mental state than she was during her relationships with those two.

 

Just as an aside, I share Rebecca's opinion of Sunil and really would like him to GTFO my TV as quickly as possible. My skin just crawls whenever he's around.

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

The show having people who don't fit that description is only seen as making a statement because most shows don't represent the full spectrum of people and relationships, and lean heavily into a very small range of options. Getting to finally see a few people who don't fit the stereotypes is fun and interesting to some of us because it represents what we experience as real life more than the bland, repetitive fare usually provided on TV, which (at least to some of us) got boring decades ago and leaves out so much of what the real world has to offer.

I've really been wondering if the baby is going to be an opportunity for the show to really discuss Darryl's bad appropriation habit and digging into why he does this. He heard that he might have a Native American ancestor which had him sporting bolo ties and filling his office with pseudo-Native American crap. Now he has a baby with a Jewish egg donor and an a Black surrogate. That's got to be a minefield for someone like Darryl.

[DianeDobbler]

Quote

Rebecca's gut instinct after her suicide attempt was to jump right into bed with Nathaniel and that has turned into an impulsive on/off-relationship, but let's be real here, before Rebecca can be with anyone, she has to learn to be by herself, deal with her borderline personality and then slowly accept that she deserves love too and NOT impulsively jump into the next best thing. 

The writing has been so sloppy. They showed Rebecca obsessing over Nathaniel as she did w/Josh - not precisely trusting us to "get" it, but hitting us over the head with the parallels. So she recognized it and broke up with him. Then she and he gave into their sexual tension, but she rationalized that it was ok because it wasn't romance, just sex? And now eight months later her therapist and the show are encouraging us to understand this is love and she should find the courage to realize she's made enough progress to take a chance on love and even be hurt? They should stop the games (such as Nathaniel's relationship with his girlfriend) and face up to the emotional truth of their bond.  Where and when did all of this progress occur? WTF happened to him being just another Josh?

Her therapy, to my surprise, has taken place off camera. We've seen sort of outlines of stuff - her getting a bit manic with taking over the shares of Darryl's ex-wife - her therapist wasn't even involved. She hid it from her therapist, and then started sleeping with Nathaniel. They never came back to the fact that she was hiding stuff from her therapist. FF eight months! She has now made a ton of progress that none of us have actually seen her make, and the dynamic with Nathaniel has morphed from being Josh Redux to the guy she needs to be vulnerable to if she's ever going to have a healthy relationship. When the hell did all of this happen? CEG is underwritten and overwritten at the same time.

There's so much I don't know - like, if Paula is still in law school.  Twice now I've taken something Paula has done as a sign she's coming into her own, only to realize it's actually a slam at her character.

Valencia and Heather were B characters, but I've been surprised at how much material Heather has gotten this season. 

Who else has done a time leap? Jane the Virgin did. I think all Jane's time leap accomplished was to bring Jane's age closer to Gina Rodriguez's. Otherwise it didn't do much, IMO, that a normal between season's time leap would have done. For CEG, it allowed CEG to skip over her damn therapy that she spent 2 and a half seasons needing, and we're supposed to figure out how evolved she is and what we're supposed to know about her and Nathaniel. There's disagreement, and I think that comes from the confusion about the writing, short cuts, skimping on music, on character development, and decent script writing.  I was never confused about who Josh and Greg represented in her life, and what was actually going on there. I know there were fans who were hoping one or the other relationship would become something else, but I always thought the show was very clear. Now, it's not. In fact it has staked out opposite positions on the same relationship.

Edited February 6, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[huahaha]

I'm not sure if the Rebecca-Nathaniel story line can have a good ending. The show has set out to subvert tropes, but at this point, it's ridiculous for the characters not to be together.

Only on film do two attractive, nonmarried, in love people having great sex not give it a go. Those chances don't keep coming indefinitely, and many people never get a chance to be with a gorgeous intellectual equal who's gaga about them and accepts them mental illness and all.

The show will more than likely go another direction, but if they do, it will be as forced as any other will-they-or-won't-they plot from an 80s TV show.

Edited February 4, 2018 by huahaha

[Eeksquire]

The biggest disappointment of this episode, for me, was that they went with 900 pregnancy tropes with Heather instead of the fact that she can't quit the pregnancy, especially since Hector pointed that out!  To me, that's both true to the character and a more interesting direction to take the storyline in than her desire to skateboard in a fat suit.  (Which: no. You can't have the character complain about pain and the assorted discomforts associated with pregnancy AND ALSO have her want to engage in extreme sports. No person that's not a TV character says to themselves, "Hey! I'm in pain and discomfort, NOW is the moment to take up a sport where I'm likely to fall on my ass repeatedly!")

Also: I loved Dr. Akopian's "I do not wish to be called 'Akopes'."

I don't know how I feel about Rebecca and Nathaniel - I was kind of over it, but I think they may have won me over again with the reprise of Face Your Fears.

[Irlandesa]

20 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I don't think Nathaniel's ethnic background makes Rebecca's relationship with him either healthy or unhealthy depending on what that background is.

I don't think him being a straight white guy makes it unhealthy either. I don't recall reading that here.  There are many reasons why it's not healthy or why Nathaniel isn't a good person that have nothing to do with his ethnicity. 

But when it comes to his ethnicity or his "straight white guyness," the disappointment that I think so many of us feel (or at least I feel) is that this show is driving towards being what it explicitly called itself out as not wanting to be.  Last season, when Nathaniel was introduced, they had a whole song basically saying "yeah yeah, he's another straight white dude--we get it."  It sounded like a way to say "don't worry, this show won't become about him" only that this season, the show has become so much about him.

Even in Season 1, when we had Greg, Josh was still the main guy.  There were episodes where Greg disappeared a bit or wasn't even in all the episodes.  (And for the record, I vastly prefer Greg to Nathaniel and Josh but I was okay with that ratio.)  Lately, however, neither Josh or Valencia get much screen time.  Heather is slightly better. But it feels like they are always making room for Rebecca and Nathaniel and probably Paula and Darryl while Valencia, Heather, Josh and White Josh have to fight for what's left.

I thought Crazy Ex would be the last show to be taken over-ish (since Rebecca is still the lead) by a mediocre white man and yet here we are.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree that Valencia is WRITTEN as a one or two note character when there is no reason for it. Why keep her? She was supposed to be a 2 episode character and the show made her a regular. All the characters are what is written for them. 

I think for me, the bigger complaint is that there are too many characters, and not enough episodes per season to give them all something meaningful to do, so some get sidetracked while others get too much focus. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by txhorns79

[huahaha]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I thought Crazy Ex would be the last show to be taken over-ish (since Rebecca is still the lead) by a mediocre white man and yet here we are.

To me, the mediocre white man who's taken over the show is Daryl, not Nathaniel. The actor is much loved and apparently very talented, but I don't think his potential translates on the show.

I never cared about Daryl's unlikely relationship with WhiJo, and I certainly don't want to watch a fifty year old man have a second baby. Just, why? Josh and Valencia deserved a lot of that time instead.

[Yeah No]

At the risk of repeating myself, I still don't understand what being a straight white guy has to do with anything and I'm beginning to feel like his race is being looked at as something negative about him.  Why shouldn't there be a story line about a straight white guy on this show whether or not he's "mediocre"?  As it is, I'm finding Nathaniel anything but mediocre.  I think he has more depth than most of the other guys on the show, except for perhaps White Josh.  Already he's proving himself to be more than skin deep and appearances don't define him.  So many of the guys on the show seem like not much more than caricatures of themselves while Nathaniel seems to want to break out of that mold right now.  I think that's the point the show is trying to make, actually, that he is going to defy and rise above expectations.  And personally, I'm rooting for him!

[Irlandesa]

10 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I still don't understand what being a straight white guy has to do with anything and I'm beginning to feel like his race is being looked at as something negative about him.  Why shouldn't there be a story line about a straight white guy on this show whether or not he's "mediocre"?

I don't inherently have a problem with white male characters but Rachel Bloom knows that if you're a white male, you're more likely to have a part on TV. You're more likely to have a name and a speaking role.  You're more likely to have a job and be shown working at that job.

So when she knows that and seemingly wants to break that pattern, it's disappointing when this happens:

14 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 I think he has more depth than most of the other guys on the show, except for perhaps White Josh.

When you're a white male, you get written for.  The fact that, after about 15 episodes, he's seen as having more depth than the Filipino male lead who has been here for 44 episodes, is kind of the "problem" in a nutshell. 

With Nathaniel, all the attempts haven't really succeeded with me so I end up analyzing what he represents more than how I feel about the character.  Because when it works, I know I have not been above getting sucked into the character arc even if part of me realizes the writers should have done better with their characters of color--and women.