S02.E13: Somewhere Else

[CofCinci]

On rewatch, I think Janet snuck off to help Jason while Michael was with Eleanor. She looks very quiet and suspicious when Michael returns. 

Also, has anyone looked at any of the TV screens or magazines for additional clues? This is such a rich multilayer series, like Arrested Development, that the small background details are sometimes features episodes later. At the bar, it looks like there was a news ticker on the TV screens. The game was on all the screens too. I can’t take a screenshot but maybe someone else could. 

[BobH]

Don't seem to be any clues, but I want to subscribe to CELEBRITY BABY PLASTIC SURGERY DISASTERS. "Elbow Botox: Totally Worth It!"

(edited to add, apparently "Jean-Ralphio" is a Parks&Rec reference. I guess I can do worse things than catch up on that show for the next eight months. Is the model anyone familiar?)

The screens in the bar that weren't a basketball game seemed to be a business news channel. The clearest thing I could read had "Hope is in the air" and "The deal machine keeps humming along, but investors may get scathed when the private equity party ends", which I'm not sure I can twist into a clue...

Edited February 3, 2018 by BobH

[OtterMommy]

I've been ruminating on what I thought about this episode and I think I've realized that I've come to a point where I simultaneously loved it and while being fundamentally disappointed by it.

The four going back to "Earth" was not unexpected, but I do think that it was effective.  I "enjoyed" (??) seeing Eleanor try to be good and the return of Sam Malone was simply perfection.  

While I was disappointed not to see Tahani and Jason in this Earth (mostly because I was really curious how they were going to save Jason from locking himself into a safe, my biggest disappointment was the introduction of Chidi.  I was actually fine with it being just Eleanor, but then re-introducing just Chidi made the show...shift...for me.  Up until this point, I saw this show as a retelling of The Wizard of Oz (I may be wrong on the writers intention, but that is at least how the show plays for me), but then it ended as a Eleanor/Chidi (er, Dorothy/Cowardly Lion) story which just seems off-balance for me.  

Now, it may very well correct itself in season 3--in fact, I would be surprised if it didn't do so.  However, it left sort of a strange taste in my mouth for the end of this season.

[DrScottie]

I also saw: 

The Bendanav Financial Network has Spot Prices for Copper and Silver with the trading indexes for the NYST and NASD.  

"Video game publisher looks to revive itself after two lackluster years" 

"Company's much anticipated wireless entertainment won't begin shipping for several more weeks" 

The basketball game might be from the FIBA Europe Cup, but I can't make out the teams or the venue. 

13 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I was actually fine with it being just Eleanor, but then re-introducing just Chidi made the show...shift...for me. Up until this point, I saw this show as a retelling of The Wizard of Oz (I may be wrong on the writers intention, but that is at least how the show plays for me), but then it ended as a Eleanor/Chidi (er, Dorothy/Cowardly Lion) story which just seems off-balance for me.  

Now, it may very well correct itself in season 3--in fact, I would be surprised if it didn't do so.  However, it left sort of a strange taste in my mouth for the end of this season.

I would think they will correct it, and I thought it was cute that they met the way Chidi thought normal people meet. Eleanor showed up at his office asking for help about philosophy. We'll find out how he and the other two avoided their demises next season, I'm sure.

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, DrScottie said:

I thought it was cute that they met the way Chidi thought normal people meet.

OMG I totally missed that. I love how layered this show is. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

but then it ended as a Eleanor/Chidi (er, Dorothy/Cowardly Lion) story which just seems off-balance for me.  

While the Show does a good job of focussing on all the charatcers, in essence Eleanor is the main protagonist. And yes--it would've been nice to see what Jason and Tahini were up to as well, but I didn't mind that they left it to be told in Season 3. I feel that Eleanor finding Chidi was only partly a shippery moment. It was mainly to signal that once again, Eleanor had found Chidi in a reboot situation, and things were back on track for Team Cockroach.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Rumsy4

[bethy]

1 hour ago, DrScottie said:

I thought it was cute that they met the way Chidi thought normal people meet. Eleanor showed up at his office asking for help about philosophy.

I totally missed this, too! I love it!!

[OtterMommy]

25 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

While the Show does a good job of focussing on all the charatcers, in essence Eleanor is the main protagonist. And yes--it would've been nice to see what Jason and Tahini were up to as well, but I didn't mind that they left it to be told in Season 3. I feel that Eleanor finding Chidi was only partly a shippery moment. It was mainly to signal that once again, Eleanor had found Chidi in a reboot situation, and things were back on track for Team Cockroach.

I think it would not have bothered me at all if this episode were not the season finale.  In my mind (a scary place, to be sure!) just seeing Eleanor would have worked, or seeing all 4.  But, by showing Eleanor and just Chidi and having the *season* end that way, felt off balance to me.  

[BobH]

Holy crap the background details on this show.  There are a dozen jokes just in the autocompletes for Eleanor's search for "what do we owe each other".  Her top searches just from the letter "w" are

wedding fail bride farts
wedding fail nip slip
wing place has liquor licence phoenix

[whiporee]

I just rewatched and found it so far beyond charming I can't even explain it. That's the thing about this show -- it's just amazingly well tempered and charming. I usually sort of detest Mya Rudolph, and in this context she was as good as she could be. The moments with Eleanor and Tahani -- just curled up on the couch like girlfriends, and then Chidi and Jason BSing about "one of the craziest years" -- then Jason and Janet talking, and Janet's sort of aggrieved "you're not a part of this" and Eleanor (and Michael's) giddiness over the kiss. And that was in the first ten minutes.  Once Eleanor got back to Earth -- all off it, from her attempts to be better to her disappointments in being better, to Sam Malone again (and the total ease at which Michael was able to have that conversation) to the look of understanding on Eleanor's face when she listened to Chidi. It was just all perfectly charming to see, and inviting and pleasant. 

I honestly don't know if I've liked 26 episodes of any show this much. It never misses -- it's been well thought out and crafted all the way through, and I'm very grateful for it. 

[wingster55]

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I doubt Tahani was ever really in love--either in real life or the afterlife. In S1, it was more about her thinking Chidi was in love with her, and in S2, she could barely admit to sleeping with Jason. 

I don't think all is lost for her however. If Team Cockroach manages to change the Afterlife judging system, she may find her soulmate eventually.

It's not fully about her finding love, but also about her being boxed into a corner. Like, fine she and Chidi aren't soulmates or romantically connected..but that means they can't interact one on one at all? Actually same with him and Jason. We saw both last season..why take those away? 

It's a pet peeve of mine when writers don't explore different combinations of characters in a scene. 

[Kromm]

I FINALLY got to see this episode, a few days late.

 

Damn. I called it. I knew this was the most likely route forward. But it's gratifying nonetheless to see that aside from my guess being right, that it was also really well done.

[arc]

16 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I am literally being the devil's advocate when saying  this, its not just a euphemism this time. 

I do have to wonder if they change and learn all these things AFTER they die, what is the point in terms of determining their fate?  Is it not too late then?  None of their newfound morals and ethics can be applied after they die to benefit those on earth, so does it not make zero difference in the system they have set up.   

I am sure Chidi could give me a 3 hour lecture on that question. 

The whole premise of the system is that people get an eternal good or bad afterlife based on their life score. But Michael is claiming that dead people can improve in the afterlife if given a chance rather than being punished/tortured forever.

Now that I put it like that, it seems to me like the obvious parallel is in prison, whether it’s for punishment or rehabilitation or both. Different societies give different weights to the two priorities. The show’s universe has so far weighted prison (the Bad Place) as only for punishment.

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

OMG I totally missed that. I love how layered this show is. 

I just realized this: season one ended with a huge twist and the next step for a rebooted Eleanor as the season finale ended was to find Chidi. Well, season two doesn’t upend the viewers the same way but it does vastly flip the status quo, and… the next step for a rebooted Eleanor as the season finale ended is that she’s found Chidi!

[marny]

The note from the Season 1 finale where Eleanor wrote "Eleanor- Find Chidi" was on the cover page of the book "What We Are to Each Other" (the clue from Michael and the title of Chidi's speech).  So basically they ended S2 with her doing exactly what she told herself to do at the end of S1.  These writers do a great job planning this stuff out.

[Mabinogia]

8 hours ago, arc said:

I just realized this: season one ended with a huge twist and the next step for a rebooted Eleanor as the season finale ended was to find Chidi. Well, season two doesn’t upend the viewers the same way but it does vastly flip the status quo, and… the next step for a rebooted Eleanor as the season finale ended is that she’s found Chidi!

It will always be the first step in them becoming better people, Eleanor will find Chidi. I loved this season ending that way because it felt like such a hopeful ending. It left me feeling like "OMG, it's happening, it's starting again." I can't wait to see what's next. Of course, I have to. :( 

[DrSpaceman73]

Quote

The whole premise of the system is that people get an eternal good or bad afterlife based on their life score. But Michael is claiming that dead people can improve in the afterlife if given a chance rather than being punished/tortured forever.

Yes I realize that, but my point is, if the whole reason for the "point" system is to keep track of what good you do on earth and for mankind, even if you change after death, that has no residual influence whatsoever on life on earth and has no effect on anyone or anything on earth. 

So it comes down to the question of what is the point of being "good"? 

If its just the inherent goal of achieving personal improvement and becoming a "good person", however that is defined, then sure, they are showing that can be done

But if the goal of being a good person is because of the effect it has on others and on earth itself, as some sort of net benefit to mankind, then anything they achieve in the afterlife, while a nice personal achievement, doesn't really do anything.  They are dead.  There have no benefit anymore to earth or mankind.

So is the "point" system just a way to keep score as a rating in terms of being a good/bad person or is the point system a true tally of what you influence you have in earth, good or bad, with that being the ultimate goal? 

Is the goal of all this just personal improvement, and that is all that matters, or is it a net effect on mankind and the future of the earth that matters?

[auntiemel]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Is the goal of all this just personal improvement, and that is all that matters, or is it a net effect on mankind and the future of the earth that matters?

I think it's a balance between the two in this world, but more heavily weighted toward the internal than the external. After all, none of Tahani's fundraising accomplishments were enough because they were done with selfish motivation. So that shows that the internal is key. However, Mindy St. Claire's one small moment of selflessness was enough to earn her a medium place precisely because its effects were so far-reaching. Therefore, the ripples that the internal motivations inspire on earth does have some consequence. It's just not that main factor.

[arc]

3 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

But if the goal of being a good person is because of the effect it has on others and on earth itself, as some sort of net benefit to mankind, then anything they achieve in the afterlife, while a nice personal achievement, doesn't really do anything.  They are dead.  There have no benefit anymore to earth or mankind.

Oh, I see.

But we still exist in the afterlife, so why shouldn't we still owe each other and thus be good?

[Anela]

I guess I was the only one who'd totally forgotten about Sam Malone. I haven't watched the show for years, because it depresses me now, for some reason. 

I liked this, but I missed the others, once it was all on Eleanor. I was hoping my DVR had missed recording a second episode. 

Elenor gettting crapped on for doing the right thing, was too close to home. That happens too often. When Eleanor was alive, in flashbacks, they made it look like she was the only selfish one (in the past), I thought. All of her "friends" were awful here. I wonder if they were really like that, or if it's just part of the simulation. 

[rab01]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:18 PM, amaranta said:

Hell, there's an episode of Cheers where Sam and Carla are exchanging deep, dark secrets and Sam's is that he flips off the partial toupee covering his bald spot. Filming that before a live studio audience (who went nuts) and then for broadcast to millions is the definition of taking it with grace.  And good humor, perspective, etc.  I love Ted Danson.

HE even furthered joke in a later interview show saying that he used to make fun of how long it took for Shelley Long to go through hair and make-up and now it took him twice as long to get his his hair done.

I liked this episode but it was more about the feels than about the jokes.  Eleanor's second-life was a little too predictable until she stopped by Cheers for a drink. 

[secnarf]

7 minutes ago, Anela said:

Elenor gettting crapped on for doing the right thing, was too close to home. That happens too often. When Eleanor was alive, in flashbacks, they made it look like she was the only selfish one (in the past), I thought. All of her "friends" were awful here. I wonder if they were really like that, or if it's just part of the simulation. 

Her friends were awful in the flashbacks too. Her coworkers (at Thursday night drinks) didn't seem to be, neither was the person whose dog/house she was supposed to watch. But, her friends and roommates were all awful.

[AnnaRose]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:34 AM, Mabinogia said:

I LOVED the first part of this ep, when they were still with the Judge. I found it lagging once it was all Eleanor. Not because I don't care for Eleanor, I love her, but because 1) I missed her interacting with the others and 2) I hate her "friends" and felt there was way too much of them.

When I watched again, I had to skip over most everything with her roommates.  A little of them goes a long way!

[SomeTameGazelle]

6 hours ago, Anela said:

I liked this, but I missed the others, once it was all on Eleanor. I was hoping my DVR had missed recording a second episode. 

 

I missed the others too, but I felt it was necessary to leave their stories in the dark and keep them open in order to set up the anticipation for the next season. It felt right to watch Eleanor struggling on her own, improving, and backsliding -- finding Chidi was also a critical step. They could have left it with her finding his lecture online, but having her actually seek him out takes us to a much more optimistic point, so even though rationally I expect more ups and downs next season, at least I get to enjoy the up for an extended period. Tahani and Jason may still be struggling, but I get to imagine that they are also making some kind of progress on earth.

[theatremouse]

On 2/1/2018 at 7:14 PM, BBG said:

I don't think they're back on Earth, but on 'Earth', essentially a neighbourhood that's basically the world at the time they died.  This could be the reason that Chidi speaks unaccented English.  

Okay, so it's a reach.

I don't think it's a reach at all. (Although I think the English is because he was in Australia. I know enough people who speak English, their second language, who learned English from Americans and speak it in a fairly neutral American sounding accent.) I thought it was pretty telegraphed that it wasn't "real Earth" but a simulation. First because they used the eye-open-wake-up motif from not only the first episode but also the reboots. That said to me "what is happening now is part of what Michael/the other beings were doing to them". Second, because puns in the background, including the bar a bunch of people mentioned. They're in a thought-experiment basically. Michael said to the judge "what if?" So that's what they're running through now. It made sense to me that first-focus was Eleanor-centric. Not that I think I'm nearly smart enough to know where these writers are going with this, but I pretty much assume the first episode of the next season will be similar to this one, but focused on the other characters in a "what if they got a 'push' in the right direction before dying" scenario.

On 2/3/2018 at 7:13 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

I am literally being the devil's advocate when saying  this, its not just a euphemism this time. 

I do have to wonder if they change and learn all these things AFTER they die, what is the point in terms of determining their fate?  Is it not too late then?  None of their newfound morals and ethics can be applied after they die to benefit those on earth, so does it not make zero difference in the system they have set up.  

Didn't Michael basically pose that question? That's how I took his point to the Judge that led to this experiment. Sort of "we're too late now, but what if what we should've been doing instead were X before they died to see what'd happen?"

 

Even though I get that this year's "find Chidi" was sort of a remix on last year's "find Chidi", and even though I do enjoy Chidi and Eleanor and all their feels, it kinda bugged me that in this go round, given the recent goings on with the her loving him and the kiss and whatnot, her needing the nudge from Michael to find Chidi this time felt a little ucky to me in a "she can't possibly do it without the guy she's in love with" way. I don't love the subtext of that, even though a basic premise of the show was these four were designed to torture each other but they do specifically need each other to get through this. It's not enough to put me off the show, not by a long shot, but it did give me cringey pause.

[DrScottie]

51 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Even though I get that this year's "find Chidi" was sort of a remix on last year's "find Chidi", and even though I do enjoy Chidi and Eleanor and all their feels, it kinda bugged me that in this go round, given the recent goings on with the her loving him and the kiss and whatnot, her needing the nudge from Michael to find Chidi this time felt a little ucky to me in a "she can't possibly do it without the guy she's in love with" way. I don't love the subtext of that, even though a basic premise of the show was these four were designed to torture each other but they do specifically need each other to get through this. It's not enough to put me off the show, not by a long shot, but it did give me cringey pause.

I certainly see your point, but I'm not sure it's that related to admitting their love for each other. I think it has more to do with the conversation that Michael and Eleanor had about Chidi, being the type of person he is, always helping Eleanor to become a better person when she asked. Clearly, Eleanor wants a guide for becoming someone better and she didn't have that in Arizona. Very few people would commit to that and I imagine that will be a struggle between the two of them next season, but they will help each other to become better people.

Edited February 5, 2018 by DrScottie

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, Anela said:

I guess I was the only one who'd totally forgotten about Sam Malone. I haven't watched the show for years, because it depresses me now, for some reason. 

I liked this, but I missed the others, once it was all on Eleanor. I was hoping my DVR had missed recording a second episode. 

Elenor gettting crapped on for doing the right thing, was too close to home. That happens too often. When Eleanor was alive, in flashbacks, they made it look like she was the only selfish one (in the past), I thought. All of her "friends" were awful here. I wonder if they were really like that, or if it's just part of the simulation. 

I remember her friends as  veering a little to the left of being good. She did do the t shirt scam with one of them. Some of the others, her coworkers, werent as bad. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Affogato

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, arc said:

Oh, I see.

But we still exist in the afterlife, so why shouldn't we still owe each other and thus be good?

There is getting your just deserts, if I am good I will dwell I the house of the lord forever. Then there is making the world a better place, the moral equivalent of always putting the toilet seat down and using deodorant. 

I think the third option is being good because it is the right thing to do and maybe the rest follows. 

[Chaos Theory]

13 hours ago, theatremouse said:

 

 

Even though I get that this year's "find Chidi" was sort of a remix on last year's "find Chidi", and even though I do enjoy Chidi and Eleanor and all their feels, it kinda bugged me that in this go round, given the recent goings on with the her loving him and the kiss and whatnot, her needing the nudge from Michael to find Chidi this time felt a little ucky to me in a "she can't possibly do it without the guy she's in love with" way. I don't love the subtext of that, even though a basic premise of the show was these four were designed to torture each other but they do specifically need each other to get through this. It's not enough to put me off the show, not by a long shot, but it did give me cringey pause.

I didn’t get that at all and I am still struggling to see that point of view.   He has always been the best friend she ever had and the only person who has never let her down.  In every reboot he helped her just because she asked.  It makes sense that she would go to him this “reboot” as well but this time is different because the scenario is slightly different.  She isn’t a bad person mistakenly In the Good Place with friends trying to support her she is a bad person attempting to be good with bad friends doing nothing to support her.   The fact that Eleanor and Chidi are possibly probably soulmates is inconsequential.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Omeletsmom]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:02 PM, Roaster said:

Sam Malone!

I literally squealed when I saw Michael behind that bar!

[theatremouse]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I didn’t get that at all and I am still struggling to see that point of view.   He has always been the best friend she ever had and the only person who has never let her down.  In every reboot he helped her just because she asked.  It makes sense that she would go to him this “reboot as well” but this time is different because the scenario is slightly different.  She isn’t a bad person mistakenly In the Good Place with friends trying to support her she is a bad person attempting to be good with bad friends doing nothing to support her.   The fact that Eleanor and Chidi are possibly probably soulmates is inconsequential.

I'm not saying the show was trying to present the thing I found cringey intentionally. I'm saying, despite the specifics of their relationship (which I do not find cringey), an unfortunate side-effect-thing-it-made-me-think-of is the not-so-great trope of super smart chick who has literally been presented as the first to always figure everything out, cannot do Big Giant Important Task without A Man. Again: not the message I think the show was intending to send, and with the context of these characters not really the point. But if I were making a bullet list, oh hey oops, this episode does tick that box. And that mildly bummed me out.

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

I don't know of another language that so casually drops women from humanity.

Spanish does, with some frequency.  The term for describing something that's really good is "bien padre", and the level above that is "bien padrisimo". 

[Mockingbird]

14 hours ago, DrScottie said:

I certainly see your point, but I'm not sure it's that related to admitting their love for each other. I think it has more to do with the conversation that Michael and Eleanor had about Chidi, being the type of person he is, always helping Eleanor to become a better person when she asked. Clearly, Eleanor wants a guide for becoming someone better and she didn't have that in Arizona. Very few people would commit to that and I imagine that will be a struggle between the two of them next season, but they will help each other to become better people.

 

Agreed. It also ties back into Eleanor's comment in the first season that if she had known Chidi, Tahani, and Real Eleanor when she was alive, she might have gotten into the Good Place for real. (Well, not Real Eleanor, but she couldn't have known that then.) And it's not just Eleanor that needs help. They all do. Tahani's counter doesn't seem to be moving at all, which I think is really indicative of the truth in her telling Eleanor that any progress she's made has stemmed from the two of them becoming mates. And almost every instance of Chidi showing any decisiveness has stemmed from his relationship with Eleanor as well. All four members of Team Cockroach needed Eleanor to get that push in Chidi's direction so that they could all begin the process of making each other better people all over again. Eleanor might have been the one to get the push because she's not so secretly Michael's favorite, but it probably had a lot more to do with the fact that Team Cockroach's improvement always starts with Eleanor asking Chidi for help and Chidi always agreeing to help her. Eleanor showing up in Chidi's office was, to me, an incredibly hopeful ending to the season because we, like Michael, know how this scenario has played out 802 times before and how it will play out this time. 

I forget which article it was that contrasted Michael's diabolical season 1 grin/laugh with his smile that accompanied the final, "Okay. Here we go," but the whole thing was just lovely. That final sequence, the affection this demon now has for these humans, and the affection I have for this demon, this not-really-a-Janet anymore, and these humans just gave me all of the warm, fuzzy feelings. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Mockingbird

[AnnaRose]

13 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I don't think it's a reach at all. (Although I think the English is because he was in Australia. I know enough people who speak English, their second language, who learned English from Americans and speak it in a fairly neutral American sounding accent.) I thought it was pretty telegraphed that it wasn't "real Earth" but a simulation. First because they used the eye-open-wake-up motif from not only the first episode but also the reboots. That said to me "what is happening now is part of what Michael/the other beings were doing to them". Second, because puns in the background, including the bar a bunch of people mentioned. They're in a thought-experiment basically.

I think that is an excellent point.

[CherithCutestory]

12 hours ago, DrScottie said:

I certainly see your point, but I'm not sure it's that related to admitting their love for each other. I think it has more to do with the conversation that Michael and Eleanor had about Chidi, being the type of person he is, always helping Eleanor to become a better person when she asked. Clearly, Eleanor wants a guide for becoming someone better and she didn't have that in Arizona. Very few people would commit to that and I imagine that will be a struggle between the two of them next season, but they will help each other to become better people.

I agree that this is what they are going for. But it doesn't entirely work for me. Something that I find a little frustrating about the narrative is Chidi actually chose not to help her in the first version. He came around because she did a kind thing with no potential of reward and he happened to witness it. But he had chosen to not help her.

I was a little put off when Michael said there was no version where he said no. There has to be versions where Eleanor didn't do a nice thing.

And even then part of the reason why he didn't rat her out is that would have involved making a decision to do so. Which he is incapable of doing.

I do think the overall point is they need each other. Eleanor is more open and honest about needing him. But she also makes him be more decisive and to get out of his own head. But I don't think the narrative entirely 100% fits with what we saw in season 1. I don't think Chidi is some who will always help. And I think Eleanor is capable of self-improvement without him. Since she actually out paced him in morality in season 1.

But those are minor points. The only real issue I have with this reboot (or rebirth, whatever) is I hate for them to forget everything forever again.

Edited February 5, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Kromm]

20 hours ago, Anela said:

Elenor gettting crapped on for doing the right thing, was too close to home. That happens too often. When Eleanor was alive, in flashbacks, they made it look like she was the only selfish one (in the past), I thought. All of her "friends" were awful here. I wonder if they were really like that, or if it's just part of the simulation. 

I don't think there's any agreement that it really is a simulation vs. a continuation of her actual life (other than how people are interpreting Chidi's "real world" accent), but even if it is I'd guess the friends are being shown accurately. Eleanor is a product of her environment, and I think that cycle perpetuated itself beyond her childhood. For example, she seems genuinely happy, for example, in the do-gooder environment, when she's mostly surrounded by other do-gooders, until external forces bring other unhappiness into her life, so she clearly does take her emotional direction from those around her. Which ultimately I'd argue isn't healthy, even if the show is now sort of arguing a bit of the opposite. Or rather, you can make yourself better because of what surrounds you, but ultimately you can't make yourself happy unless you like yourself. That subtlety has to be explored a little more, even if they are sticking with the theme that interacting with the others makes Eleanor better. 

51 minutes ago, CherithCutestory said:

I agree that this is what they are going for. But it doesn't entirely work for me. Something that I find a little frustrating about the narrative is Chidi actually chose not to help her in the first version. He came around because she did a kind thing with no potential of reward and he happened to witness it. But he had chosen to not help her.

I was a little put off when Michael said there was no version where he said no. There has to be versions where Eleanor didn't do a nice thing.

Does there? Maybe the point is that there always is that, because she's ultimately a nice person if given a chance to be,.

Also, on Earth, be it a sim or real, he's not meeting an Eleanor who's acting selfish. He's meeting one from the onset who wants to be a better person without any promoting or ulterior motive.

Remember she may tell him about her selfish past, and even her backslide, but the moment of their meeting is about her being an earnest student. This is a new pattern for them.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Or rather, you can make yourself better because of what surrounds you, but ultimately you can't make yourself happy unless you like yourself. That subtlety has to be explored a little more, even if they are sticking with the theme that interacting with the others makes Eleanor better. 

I think Tahani is the example of not being happy until you are happy with yourself. She is the one who's validation always came from outside. With Eleanor I think it's more an exploration of nature vs nurture. She is a good person but she has spent her life around bad influences. If she'd had better parents I doubt she would have been friends with those two vapid bitches. It's not so much that she doesn't like who she is, I think she doesn't know who she is. It's normal to become what you know when you're whole life you have known crap. I think Eleanor's journey is showing that it is never too late to overcome a terrible past.

I had a pretty shitty childhood and I find inspiration in knowing that the people I choose to surround myself with now are a good influence on me and are changing my life. Actually, I just "broke up" with a friend I realized was bringing out my worst tendencies. She fed into every insecurity I had. It's only been a few days and while it was hard, we knew each other for 7 years, I feel so much better. So Eleanor's story speaks to me a lot, in the idea that you can improve yourself and your life by being around the right people.

[Big Mother]

I'm a rabid fan of this show and have dutifully suspended disbelief every episode, since this after all a 'fantasy' show. But this episode made me very skeptical. It's relying way too much on coincidence. WHY would Eleanor want to change, if all they did was rewind the time? Unless they put her back on earth, or in a simulation, with no memories of her time in heaven, but with the changes to her soul bc of all the ethics she had learned. WHY would someone as thoroughly used to being self centered as Eleanor suddenly decide to change, just bc she had a near death experience? It's not realistic.

Also: Is no one coming after Michael and Janet in the judge's void? The bad place people know what happened by now. Is the portal sealed and that's why they are protected?

Last but not least, HOW did Michael insert himself into Eleanor's 'simulation'? I guess he went from demon to guardian angel?

[OtterMommy]

47 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

I'm a rabid fan of this show and have dutifully suspended disbelief every episode, since this after all a 'fantasy' show. But this episode made me very skeptical. It's relying way too much on coincidence. WHY would Eleanor want to change, if all they did was rewind the time? Unless they put her back on earth, or in a simulation, with no memories of her time in heaven, but with the changes to her soul bc of all the ethics she had learned. WHY would someone as thoroughly used to being self centered as Eleanor suddenly decide to change, just bc she had a near death experience? It's not realistic.

Also: Is no one coming after Michael and Janet in the judge's void? The bad place people know what happened by now. Is the portal sealed and that's why they are protected?

Last but not least, HOW did Michael insert himself into Eleanor's 'simulation'? I guess he went from demon to guardian angel?

I really don't think they just rewound time.  I'm of the camp that she's in some sort of simulation where her free will (as well as Chidi's and Tahani's and Jason's) can be tested against fixed variables.  Also, I don't think she went into the simulation (if that is what it is) in the same state she was in when she died.  I liken it to Janet--each time Janet is rebooted, she retains at least something of her last version.  And I sort of remember there being something about Eleanor and company remembering or retaining with each of their reboots (it was early this season and I might be imagining that...).  

I don't think the test is to see if the Eleanor would have changed enough "in real life" to get into the Good Place, but instead to see if she changed enough in the after life that it would have made a difference in the real world.

Also, if it were a simulation, I see no logical reason why Michael couldn't insert himself (I do see how it might not have been "legal" for him to do so, but I can buy that he was able to do so).

[Big Mother]

ahhh, that makes sense. He did simply pop through the door to go back to the room where he and Janet were monitoring the tickers.

I wonder how they got angels to play the parts of her friends, so perfectly. :D

[DrScottie]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

Also, I don't think she went into the simulation (if that is what it is) in the same state she was in when she died.  I liken it to Janet--each time Janet is rebooted, she retains at least something of her last version.  And I sort of remember there being something about Eleanor and company remembering or retaining with each of their reboots (it was early this season and I might be imagining that...).  

You might be referring to the situation surrounding the note Eleanor wrote to herself about finding Chidi in the first episode of this season. After she told Chidi about the note and later Tahani drunkenly started the fire, Chidi told Eleanor that he had never seen her before in his life yet somehow he knew her. I don't recall anything else related to the humans retaining information through reboots, but there could be 1200 clues that I've missed as I can't perceive all the dimensions Michael can.

[AnnaRose]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:38 PM, Big Mother said:

Also: Is no one coming after Michael and Janet in the judge's void? The bad place people know what happened by now. Is the portal sealed and that's why they are protected?

I guess the portal is probably sealed again, until the judge makes her decision.  Also, Shawn was going to lock Michael in that room for eternity, but I presume he ended up being locked in there instead... so maybe nobody in the bad place knows that Michael escaped to see the judge?

Edited February 7, 2018 by AnnaRose
typo

[arc]

3 hours ago, Big Mother said:

WHY would Eleanor want to change, if all they did was rewind the time? Unless they put her back on earth, or in a simulation, with no memories of her time in heaven, but with the changes to her soul bc of all the ethics she had learned. WHY would someone as thoroughly used to being self centered as Eleanor suddenly decide to change, just bc she had a near death experience? It's not realistic.

Well, her introspective mood immediately following her near-death experience is plausible, right? And what immediately followed her near-death experience was talking about it with her super awful roommates. So she was suddenly in the right frame of mind to realize her roommates—and she herself—were awful people.

[Rumsy4]

12 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I liken it to Janet--each time Janet is rebooted, she retains at least something of her last version.  And I sort of remember there being something about Eleanor and company remembering or retaining with each of their reboots (it was early this season and I might be imagining that...).  

Ooh... I LOVE this explanation! It makes sense. Just like Janet, each time the four are rebooted, they retain something. That's why they're able to always "find" each other, and somehow start trying to improve themselves.

12 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I wonder how they got angels to play the parts of her friends, so perfectly. :D

I don't think this is an actual scenario like the Bad Place with demons playing people. This may be more of a virtual reality simulation where the only real "beings" are Team Cockroach. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Chaos Theory]

13 hours ago, Big Mother said:

I'm a rabid fan of this show and have dutifully suspended disbelief every episode, since this after all a 'fantasy' show. But this episode made me very skeptical. It's relying way too much on coincidence. WHY would Eleanor want to change, if all they did was rewind the time? Unless they put her back on earth, or in a simulation, with no memories of her time in heaven, but with the changes to her soul bc of all the ethics she had learned. WHY would someone as thoroughly used to being self centered as Eleanor suddenly decide to change, just bc she had a near death experience? It's not realistic.

Also: Is no one coming after Michael and Janet in the judge's void? The bad place people know what happened by now. Is the portal sealed and that's why they are protected?

Last but not least, HOW did Michael insert himself into Eleanor's 'simulation'? I guess he went from demon to guardian angel?

It’s the whole “if I knew then what I know now” scenario with the added mind wipe.      Would you make the same choices then if you were the person you are. now even if someone wiped your mind?   

Give Eleanor the sudden insight that she is a horrible person but because she lacks the tools to be a better one long term she will fall back into old traps.  People need people.  People build people.  We are each other’s Good Place and bad place.  

[scarynikki12]

Discussion of etymology is off topic.  If you want to discuss this you may head to Small Talk.

[CalamityBoPeep]

On 2/1/2018 at 9:37 PM, CofCinci said:

Buddies, what did you all think of the comment Janet made that she’s not a Janet anymore....  they’ll definitely come back to that again. 

 

My pet theory is that Janet is a God, and she's getting more and more powerful in her ability to create. She can create entire worlds, now even with simulations of people (like Derek) to populate them. As the judge's and Michael's plans began to formulate, (while the Cockroaches were off to the side, wondering what was going on), Janet moved over to Michael, which indicated to me her readiness to put the new plan into motion. The moment the idea is visualized, the new reality exists. Because Janet sees it all, knows it all, and creates it all. After all the reboots, she may no longer even need Michael to state the specifics. It could be that they're so in tune with each other, that the moment he imagines the reality, she is creating it.

So, yeah, I believe this new Earth-realm is a larger, more elaborate, Janet-created simulation, and that she's made the transition from being a Janet to being a God. She is experiencing all realities through her creations, discovering her emotions and senses through her interactions with humans, and is always benevolently loving, to the point where she must allow or force herself to experience being "evil" (Bad Janet), in order to attain the highest Good.

 

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't think this is an actual scenario like the Bad Place with demons playing people. This may be more of a virtual reality simulation where the only real "beings" are Team Cockroach. 

 

I don't think Bad Place demons are playing people either. The people populating the new Earth-realm could be Janet-created-virtual people, more finely tuned creations than her Derek was.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I don't think Bad Place demons are playing people either. The people populating the new Earth-realm could be Janet-created-virtual people, more finely tuned creations than her Derek was.

Yeah, I agree with this.  The non-Eleanor people are all very static.  In the Good Place, the demons would react to the actions of Team Cockroach, and we don't really see that here.  Instead, we see these very static "characters" that would set up Eleanor for situations and then sort of just leave her there.

[ByTor]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:26 PM, DrScottie said:

Eleanor's demise didn't have a truck in the background with a billboard for "Kamilah: Perfect" with 5 stars and a review quote underneath it in the original one from the Mindy St. Claire episode.

And in the pilot, didn't Michael say that she was hit by a truck for an erectile dysfunction drug called "Engorgulate?" 

[ByTor]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Discussion of etymology is off topic.

I read this quickly and thought it said "entomology" LOL.  I thought maybe there were some moderator-deleted comments about cockroaches :)

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

It's not so much that she doesn't like who she is, I think she doesn't know who she is.

I think she knows exactly who she is, someone who had to struggle her whole life to take care of herself (and her parents until she was emancipated), which made her bitter, mistrusting, and resentful.  I think she does know that she's a good person underneath all that, but just says screw it since life keeps knocking her down.

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:38 PM, secnarf said:

Her friends were awful in the flashbacks too. Her coworkers (at Thursday night drinks) didn't seem to be, neither was the person whose dog/house she was supposed to watch. But, her friends and roommates were all awful.

Well, her co-workers were also paid to scare the elderly into getting them to buy fake medicine, so they weren't so great either :)

15 hours ago, AnnaRose said:

I guess the portal is probably sealed again

Speaking of the portal, I clicked on Hulu to watch the latest episode, forgetting that I missed the prior week's one.  I was like huh?  How is Michael there?  Did he get through the portal offscreen? How did he get away from Shawn? What's this about Tahani and Cheetos???

[DrScottie]

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

And in the pilot, didn't Michael say that she was hit by a truck for an erectile dysfunction drug called "Engorgulate?" 

She was indeed hit by the Engorgulate truck, but the Kamilah truck wasn't present in the first vision of her death. Compare the two images. It's just a red truck in the background in the Mindy St. Claire episode. 

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

Speaking of the portal, I clicked on Hulu to watch the latest episode, forgetting that I missed the prior week's one.  I was like huh?  How is Michael there?  Did he get through the portal offscreen? How did he get away from Shawn? What's this about Tahani and Cheetos???

Watch the previous episode "The Burrito" and it will answer all of those questions.