S01.E13: Seven Reasons

[SnarkyTart]

Dr. Shaun Murphy suspects his patient is lying about the reason for her injury and makes a controversial assumption about her motives.  Meanwhile, Dr. Neil Melendez's personal life could be affecting his work and, unltimately, his patients lives.

[statsgirl]

This episode brought to you by David "Everybody lies" Shore.

As well as Shaun constantly accusing the woman of being a terrorist, which is Shore's heavy-handed way or mocking, I disliked Claire and Dr. Lim's interactions with the mother.  They could take her to court, but they couldn't prove that she had said that the only reason she was refusing him the surgery was because he was abusive and not because it was his wish.  That's hearsay.

I also have a hard time believing that the kid not only hid his distress about what his father was doing from his mother, but that the distress was so great he thought about switching his father's pills with fakes.  Far too heavy-handed.

I liked Shaun saying Melendez that he should go home because he's suffered a trauma; and Glassman's inability to say anything after Shaun asked him to be his friend.

[Annber03]

Good to see Claire so determined to deal with this Coyle guy once and for all. I'm looking forward to seeing how her efforts play out. Her storyline with the woman and her husband was good as well.

I liked her and Shaun eating breakfast together, too, and trying to talk about the issue of lying. I'd love to see them eat breakfast together more often.

The whole storyline with the Muslim patient was good in terms of the mystery surrounding just what was wrong with her, but I could've done without the whole "terrorism" thing, given how out of left field that assumption was. I liked her trying to explain to Shaun how painful it is for her to deal with assumptions like his, though, as well as other types of prejudice. 

And Shaun with the pine ornament at the end was a sweet touch. Curious how this new neighbor of his will fare, too. 

[possibilities]

I was really looking forward to this, but I thought it was kind of meh.

You're supposed to recuse yourself if you have a conflict of interest, Melendez. And... Jessica? I forget the ex-fiancee's name. It's not an insult, it's just regular procedure.

Glassman doesn't love Shaun. He was just enjoying the power and control. So now I have to hate him, fullstop.

If the mom and her kid just left because they're abandoning the abuser, I'm OK with that. But if they fled because they are going to be prosecuted for tampering with the meds, I think it's a cop out to drop the story. Also, I thought doctors were mandatory reporters for domestic violence. Not doing anything to protect the kid, at least, is unacceptable.

How convenient that Dr. Harassment is the most skilled surgeon! And they can't hire another one to replace him! Big problem with medicine if we have a shortage of doctors who aren't abusers. And no investigation? Did they look for witnesses to the harassment? Claire actually had one, in that patient who was in the room.

Jared still doesn't get why he is in trouble. He can't redeem himself with an unrelated good behavior, any more than Dr. Harassment can get a pass because he's a decent surgeon. I'm also pissed off that they are focusing on the lawsuit when they talk about people being mad at him, and acting like they've forgotten about the assault.

Shaun should have gone in and had a beer with new neighbor. I wish they'd hired a different actor, though, because dude gives me the flesh creeps.

The burn patient was incredibly patient, but it's also true that lying to the doctors almost cost her her life. Could doctor-patient confidentiality have protected her brother if she'd told them the truth?

I wanted to hear all of Shaun's reasons people lie.

I was angry that he kept insisting she was a terrorist, though. His list of ways to get exposed to the chemical should have been more comprehensive. Also, just deciding she was a terrorist was editorializing, not medicine. All he should have done was identify the toxin, and maybe question the patient about whether and/or how she might have been exposed, explaining why they needed to know. Also, couldn't they check her for infection or toxicity? Is it really a guessing game? Flip a coin, 50% chance of death, instead of questioning the patient or doing further tests.

[Annber03]

9 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If the mom and her kid just left because they're abandoning the abuser, I'm OK with that. But if they fled because they are going to be prosecuted for tampering with the meds, I think it's a cop out to drop the story. Also, I thought doctors were mandatory reporters for domestic violence. Not doing anything to protect the kid, at least, is unacceptable.

YES! I felt that part of the story ended rather abruptly, and I would've liked to get a hint of what direction they were going with that. I'm guessing it was the former, but yeah, either way, the issues you note should be dealt with.

Quote

Shaun should have gone in and had a beer with new neighbor. I wish they'd hired a different actor, though, because dude gives me the flesh creeps.

The burn patient was incredibly patient, but it's also true that lying to the doctors almost cost her her life. Could doctor-patient confidentiality have protected her brother if she'd told them the truth?

I wanted to hear all of Shaun's reasons people lie.

I was angry that he kept insisting she was a terrorist, though. His list of ways to get exposed to the chemical should have been more comprehensive. Also, just deciding she was a terrorist was editorializing, not medicine. All he should have done was identify the toxin, and maybe question the patient about whether and/or how she might have been exposed, explaining why they needed to know. Also, couldn't they check her for infection or toxicity? Is it really a guessing game? Flip a coin, 50% chance of death, instead of questioning the patient or doing further tests.

Agreed on all of this in particular, too. And not only would I like to know Shaun's entire list of reasons, but I'd also like to know why he ranked them as he did. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Annber03

[Bobbin]

58 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Shaun should have gone in and had a beer with new neighbor. I wish they'd hired a different actor, though, because dude gives me the flesh creeps.

I like the new neighbor. He has a sense of humor, just smiling at Shaun's odd behavior instead of being annoyed. I think he'll prove to be a good male role model for Shaun, his rock.

[tennisgurl]

Very interesting episode this week, a lot going on. I thought that the Shaun vs Melendez riff would be a lot bigger of a thing, and while they did fight, it stayed pretty civil, and they ended about where they started, maybe a bit better. Also nice to see Jared get a win, after so much crap that has gone on. I do hope he realizes what he did was wrong, and admits that soon though. 

I dont think Shaun has any kind of prejudice, I think he is totally fact based, to the point that he doesn't really "get" why saying a Muslim women might be a terrorist might be a really big deal. He basically said that in the episode. That people will see the facts, and make up their minds correct, while Jared and Melendez said  correctly) that the facts dont matter to some people, and they come up with their own facts. He might have gotten a but stuck on the terrorist theory, but, again, that was what the facts were telling him. As soon as he found another explanation, he went with that one instead because it lined up better. That being said, I wasn't really thrilled with the story, because it seems like jumping to terrorist was a pretty big leap. It almost seemed out of character. The mystery surrounding her illness was good though.

I also loved how much he seemed to enjoy smelling her perfume. And him smelling the air freshener. And I liked when the patient talked about how much prejudice has hurt her.  

It looks like Claire will be fighting against Dr. Harassment. I hope she gets to take a few personal days soon, she has had a REALLY eventful (and mostly crappy) few weeks. 

I am cautiously optimistic about the new neighbor. He seems like a cool guy, and Shaun having just a straight up friend without any romantic tension would be nice to see. Plus, I've liked the actor in other things. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by tennisgurl

[statsgirl]

Shaun thinking that the Muslim woman was building a chemical bomb was without bias in terms of her religion but it was also badly based because he never questioned her to truly eliminate the other possibilities, he just assumed. It's also biased in terms of information because statistically it's about four times more likely that an attack will come from a right wing male than a left wing or Islamic one and it's rare that the terrorist is a women.  I doubt Shaun would have made the same assumption about a white man who actually would be much more likely to be building a chemical bomb than a Muslim woman would be.

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

If the mom and her kid just left because they're abandoning the abuser, I'm OK with that. But if they fled because they are going to be prosecuted for tampering with the meds, I think it's a cop out to drop the story. Also, I thought doctors were mandatory reporters for domestic violence. Not doing anything to protect the kid, at least, is unacceptable.

Where I live, it's only child abuse that is mandatory reporting, not domestic abuse.

I assumed that they disappeared because it really was the  child who substituted the pills and his mother was afraid he would get into trouble from the father if not the law. I hope she cleaned out the joint bank accounts before she disappeared with her son.

[bybrandy]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Glassman doesn't love Shaun. He was just enjoying the power and control.

I don't know that I agree with this.   There certainly is a problem with how Gassman interacts with Shaun but I'm not certain it is about power and control.  I think this is a guy who lost his child before the part where you have to step back and let them be an adult so he's having a particularly hard time stepping back and letting Shaun be an adult.  He hurts Shaun by not immediately accepting the friend request but I really felt he was being ernest when he said he didn't know another way to interact.  I suspect he'll come around.

[thuganomics85]

Yikes, even for this show, this episode got pretty heavy-handed at times.  Saw that David Shore himself cowrote it, and it was really giving me those old House vibes for better and worse.

On one hand, I do think that Shaun would have accused anyone of making chemical weapons, no matter what their race or religion was, with the facts he was given (which still felt kind of flimsy, but whatever.)  I don't get the sense that it was a "Oh, she's Muslim, so she's clearly making bombs" thing from him.  That said, I have my suspicions over if he actually would have used the word terrorist had the patient been white or another race, so I do think there might be some prejudices in him.  Either way, definitely not his best look this go around.

That said, I did like seeing him and Jared paired up again.  I find their relationship kind of refreshing, because it isn't the normal television-type one.  They aren't friends, but they do respect one another as co-workers.  They are also rivals trying to one-up another, but there isn't a sense of hostility or malice because of it.  In a lot of ways, they're kind of like co-workers in real life.

Claire being Claire naturally leads her to another complicated and painful case, where she finds out that her patient was actually an abusive husband, and not only did his wife want him to die, but it was the son who caused his aneurysm by fucking with his medicine.  At least that case is behind her and now she has time to... take on Dr. Harassment.  I'm glad she's not going to let him get away with it, but you just know this is going to be easier said then done.  Claire just can't catch a break.

No surprise that neither Melendez or Jessica are on good terms at the moment.

Glassman's kind of being a dick now.  I'm all for giving Shaun space, but to not even eat breakfast with him anymore?  Damn, he takes rejection way too personally.  Shaun/Freddie Highmore's face when Glassman refused to "be his friend" was brutal.

I'm guessing new neighbor is here so Shaun can have a platonic friend to let loose with.  I've seen the actor in a few things, so he's definitely sticking around.

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

.Shaun/Freddie Highmore's face when Glassman refused to "be his friend" was brutal.

The tears in his eyes in that scene... Highmore sure knows how to break your heart, he does. 

[Evagirl]

5 hours ago, Annber03 said:

The tears in his eyes in that scene... Highmore sure knows how to break your heart, he does. 

Highmore is killing it on this show.  However, IMO, I wish he'd get rid of the bangs.  They make him look so young.  It was fine for Norman Bates because Norman was a teenager, but for Dr. Murphy - I don't think so even though they have been trimmed and feathered a little bit - ha!

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Shaun thinking that the Muslim woman was building a chemical bomb was without bias in terms of her religion but it was also badly based because he never questioned her to truly eliminate the other possibilities, he just assumed. It's also biased in terms of information because statistically it's about four times more likely that an attack will come from a right wing male than a left wing or Islamic one and it's rare that the terrorist is a women.  I doubt Shaun would have made the same assumption about a white man who actually would be much more likely to be building a chemical bomb than a Muslim woman would be.

I have to politely disagree.

Shaun would have accused anyone with the facts that were given.  The missing piece of information was that her brother worked with that particular chemical and that he stole some for her to use in the perfume she was making.  Shaun didn't know that a) she had a brother who worked with chemicals or b) that she was into making perfume.  If either one of these two pieces of information were given to Shaun (even just the minor one that she has a side job of making perfume or making her own perfume) he wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she was constructing a bomb.

Shaun would have made the same assumption given the facts (or lack there of) even if it was a white female. 

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Glassman's kind of being a dick now.  I'm all for giving Shaun space, but to not even eat breakfast with him anymore?  Damn, he takes rejection way too personally.  Shaun/Freddie Highmore's face when Glassman refused to "be his friend" was brutal.

I didn't get a chance to watch the last ten minutes so I will have to go back to watch, but Glassman not eating breakfast with Shaun? I get needing to create boundaries now that their relationship has shifted and Glassman is trying to remain partial, to give Shaun space so that he can grow as an individual, but going from having breakfast and being overprotective to total rejection? I felt really bad for Shaun. It's not making me like Glassman all that much. He's approaching the situation all wrong, and it seems like he's not even thinking about Shaun. That's a lot for Shaun to handle. He just lost Lea, and now he's lost Glassman. I'm glad Claire ate breakfast with Shaun; at least he still has her. 

Claire/Shaun's scene was very well done. I'm glad Claire didn't get a totally horrible week and she managed to turn it around, although I feel a bit uncomfortable with her threatening the wife to turn over the information in order to do what Claire wanted. I get the purpose, but it felt like a move that would be done by any other main character but Claire. Not that the wife and son choosing to kill the husband was morally right, but he was an abuser and I can't really blame either of them for thinking emotionally and wanting to get away from him. 

Also, poor Claire with Dr. Harrassment Coyle still needing to be there because I guess he's some excellent doctor? I did enjoy Claire and Tamlyn Tomita's character (whose name I have no clue of) getting to share a storyline together. For a main character, Tamlyn hasn't gotten much screentime. 

Of course Melendez is losing it and unable to deal with his breakup. I am disappointed that it took him so long to fess up, and he couldn't even really talk to Jessica, although that's understandable. 

I didn't mind the case with Shaun/Jared. I think Shaun is shortsighted when it comes to emotions and social issues. He jumped the gun on terrorism based on fact, but didn't seem to quite grasp how he should have approached the situation. However, the patient should have been somewhat honest to begin with. I am happy that the case didn't end with her being a terrorist, though. It was nice to see that Shaun was both right and wrong. 

Again, I didn't get the chance to see the new neighbour but I recognize the actor's name from things I've watched. Hopefully, he's a good neighbour to Shaun. At this point, Shaun really needs it. 

[DearEvette]

29 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Shaun would have accused anyone with the facts that were given.  The missing piece of information was that her brother worked with that particular chemical and that he stole some for her to use in the perfume she was making.  Shaun didn't know that a) she had a brother who worked with chemicals or b) that she was into making perfume.  If either one of these two pieces of information were given to Shaun (even just the minor one that she has a side job of making perfume or making her own perfume) he wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she was constructing a bomb.

But why go straight to bomb making when the chemical is used for things other than making a bomb?  And why go straight to the term 'Terrorist'?  Factually the definition of terrorism has to do with creating widespread fear in order to further a political, ideological or religious agenda.    Terrorist has connotations that is almost always based on people being brown and foreign looking.   But Shaun didn't know anything about the woman politically or ideologically only that she didn't want to be touched and they all decided it was for religious reasons. So in essence by continuing to refer to her as a terrorist he did draw a conclusion not based on solely on fact. 

I did not like the Claire story line, even though I think Anotnia Thomas gives a great performance every time.  And I love that doctor she was working with on this,  I know this is a drama, but the situation with the father felt like such an overreach.  Also if you are not going to actually abide by consent then why even ask for it in the first place?  If you think there is malfeasance then do what you need to do legally anyway, but there were no real clues that the mother was trying to kill him.  Heck she is right, if she wanted him dead they could have just let him die at home, not rush him to the hospital.

I do like her continued pursuit of justice though. 

Glassman is coming off as petulant.  this is not a good look for him.

I like the new neighbor, for now.  I wonder what sort of influence he'll be on Shaun. 

[displayname]

Glassman might just be afraid that if he gets too involved again, there will be nothing but pain for the two of them. I think it's a fairly accurate portrayal of a kinda-sorta falling out of a friendship, when people just don't know what to do anymore. Hope it gets worked out soon.

[Efzee]

I'm confused as to why the patient who was pretending to be asleep while Claire got harassed (the second time) isn't mentioned at all? I mean, she'd probably come forward to tell what she overheard if her conversation with Claire in that episode is anything to go on. Why go looking for other women who worked with him and got harassed when you've got an eye (ear) witness?

[orza]

1 hour ago, Efzee said:

I'm confused as to why the patient who was pretending to be asleep while Claire got harassed (the second time) isn't mentioned at all? I mean, she'd probably come forward to tell what she overheard if her conversation with Claire in that episode is anything to go on. Why go looking for other women who worked with him and got harassed when you've got an eye (ear) witness?

Because Claire would just get into more trouble by dragging the patient into it. It would be unprofessional and probably a breach of ethics and hospital policy to involve a patient in an internal personnel matter. That confrontation should never have taken place in front of a patient, regardless of whether they thought she was asleep or not. Both doctors were in the wrong. It is also potentially a lawsuit waiting to happen. Both doctors were on duty and supposed to be giving the patient their full attention. If for any reason the patient does not make a full recovery she could blame it on mistakes made because the doctors were distracted with their personal strife, and the hospital would settle with her for a nice sum to prevent the case from going to court.

[Fable]

4 hours ago, fan94 said:

Glassman might just be afraid that if he gets too involved again, there will be nothing but pain for the two of them. I think it's a fairly accurate portrayal of a kinda-sorta falling out of a friendship, when people just don't know what to do anymore. Hope it gets worked out soon.

Agreed.  

I think Dr. Glassman is reacting out of hurt.  He was Shaun’s parental figure for a long time and he is now realizing Shaun doesn’t need or want him in that way, and he doesn’t know how else to relate to him.  I don’t doubt for a minute that Glassman cares for him, or he would have just let Shaun run off to Pennsylvania.  I hope they find their footing because it’s clear they both are fond of each other. 

[possibilities]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Claire being Claire naturally leads her to another complicated and painful case, where she finds out that her patient was actually an abusive husband

Shaun was the one who put the idea in her head, though, which I thought was interesting.

 

6 hours ago, DearEvette said:

But why go straight to bomb making when the chemical is used for things other than making a bomb?  And why go straight to the term 'Terrorist'?  Factually the definition of terrorism has to do with creating widespread fear in order to further a political, ideological or religious agenda.    Terrorist has connotations that is almost always based on people being brown and foreign looking.   But Shaun didn't know anything about the woman politically or ideologically only that she didn't want to be touched and they all decided it was for religious reasons. So in essence by continuing to refer to her as a terrorist he did draw a conclusion not based on solely on fact. 

This! Times 1000!

If he detected the chemical and couldn't find a source, he should have investigated further, not jumped to an extremely bad conclusion.

 

1 hour ago, Fable said:

I think Dr. Glassman is reacting out of hurt.  He was Shaun’s parental figure for a long time and he is now realizing Shaun doesn’t need or want him in that way, and he doesn’t know how else to relate to him.

If an actual parent totally rejected their child because that child was now an adult and didn't want to be micro managed, it would be considered shitty parenting by a person with the maturity of a toddler. So, I don't give Glassman a pass on this at all.

 

5 hours ago, fan94 said:

Glassman might just be afraid that if he gets too involved again, there will be nothing but pain for the two of them. I think it's a fairly accurate portrayal of a kinda-sorta falling out of a friendship, when people just don't know what to do anymore.

Well he should grow up. Shaun told him what he wanted-- a friend, someone to have breakfast with, etc. If Glassman has no idea how to behave as a friend, he should be the one going to therapy, instead of all that pressuring of Shaun he had been doing.

I liked when Shaun pointed out that Glassman had said he believed in Shaun, that Shaun could change, but apparently doesn't hold himself to the same standard. When you care about someone, you try. And Glassman should be PROUD of Shaun for taking responsibility for his own life, not hurt that he's able to do it. It's incredibly undermining to make it all about Glassman feeling rejected, when Shaun clearly said he wasn't rejecting him, he wanted to continue the relationship, not out of dependency but as an equal.

[displayname]

36 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Well he should grow up.

It's not that easy, and it's not that simple. People who are hurt shouldn't just "grow up". They need time to adjust to what happened. Heck, they need time even to "grow up". Theirs was a dynamic that held true for a long time. You need a break from people sometimes, and it might even be because you realise that you're wrong. 

 

Shaun is right in wanting an equal relationship now, and might be right in saying that Glassman isn't holding himself to the same standard. I don't think there shouldn't be any time given to Glassman, however.

Edited January 23, 2018 by fan94

[elle]

8 hours ago, greekmom said:

Shaun would have made the same assumption given the facts (or lack there of) even if it was a white female. 

It bothered me that when the patient asked not to be touched except for medical related reasons, the assumption was made that it was because of religious reasons.  There are plenty of other reasons for someone not to want to be touched, which might have been explored had this been a different patient.  She was correct, a doctor should not be touching a patient except for medical related reasons.  

It also bothered me that along with the "every Muslim is a terrorist" sterotype, there is the assumption that every person of Arab descent is Muslim or even the "brown person" is  Arab.  There were so many other assumptions going on than Shaun's heavy handed bomb making comments.

2 hours ago, orza said:

Because Claire would just get into more trouble by dragging the patient into it. It would be unprofessional and probably a breach of ethics and hospital policy to involve a patient in an internal personnel matter. That confrontation should never have taken place in front of a patient, regardless of whether they thought she was asleep or not. Both doctors were in the wrong. It is also potentially a lawsuit waiting to happen. Both doctors were on duty and supposed to be giving the patient their full attention. If for any reason the patient does not make a full recovery she could blame it on mistakes made because the doctors were distracted with their personal strife, and the hospital would settle with her for a nice sum to prevent the case from going to court.

It would seem that the fact that the assault took place in front of a sleeping patient would come out in the report, i.e, where and when it happened.  That should be even more evidence at the unprofessional actions of the doctor in question.  Claire should mention that the patient was indeed awake and witnessed everything.  It would be up to legal to follow up with the patient.  Since Claire seems to be pursuing this case further by finding more victims of the doctor, and bolstering her own case by doing so,  I would hope she has some legal adviser of her own.  The patient volunteered to be a witness for Claire.  A good lawyer would find her and get a statement.  What we do not know is whether or not this was the first time he dared do something in front of a supposed unconscious patient, though based on his arrogance, it probably was not the first or last.

[auntiemel]

Damn, Glassman. It's possible to be a friend-slash-advisor without going full-on Beverly Goldberg! That's all Shaun's asking for!

[TwistedandBored]

I like Claire's story and I really like that they got the drama between Melendez and his fiance out of the way. I did not however like Shaun accusing that Muslim girl of being a terrorist. I thought it was going to be a teaching moment for him at the end of the episode like, you can't keep accusing people or reporting them without gathering all the facts but nothing happened. 

Shaun might be "fact-based" but accusing that girl of terrorism activity had a lot of biased involved. Just saying. 

[Fable]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

If an actual parent totally rejected their child because that child was now an adult and didn't want to be micro managed, it would be considered shitty parenting by a person with the maturity of a toddler. So, I don't give Glassman a pass on this at all.

He gets  a pass from me.  Both Shaun and Glassman have emotions to deal with.  I don’t think Shaun hitting Glassman was a great move either, and Shaun is not exactly a child either.  As I said, I hope they work it out because I feel sure they care about each other. 

[mary2013]

Shaun researched how the chemical is used - pharmaceuticals, water treatment, industrial pesticides and chemical weapons.  She's a schoolteacher, so she wouldn't be exposed through the first 3.  That leaves chemical weapons.  These are the facts as Shaun sees them. I don't see Shaun showing bias.

 

Also, from a few weeks back, if that racist patient of Claire's had the same chemical burns, no one would question him being involved with chemical weapons.

[Fable]

15 minutes ago, mary2013 said:

Shaun researched how the chemical is used - pharmaceuticals, water treatment, industrial pesticides and chemical weapons.  She's a schoolteacher, so she wouldn't be exposed through the first 3.  That leaves chemical weapons.  These are the facts as Shaun sees them. I don't see Shaun showing bias.

I don’t follow the logic.  How, as a school teacher, would she have been exposed to that particular chemical?  I thought Shaun was reaching. 

I’m not a dog catcher or a nurse, therefore my exposure to bacteria must be related to being a secretary?  Alrighty then! 

[statsgirl]

I got the feeling that Glassman didn't know how to be a friend.  He would have said yes to being Shaun's friend and he wished he could have but he didn't know how to be.

12 hours ago, greekmom said:

I have to politely disagree.

Shaun would have accused anyone with the facts that were given.  The missing piece of information was that her brother worked with that particular chemical and that he stole some for her to use in the perfume she was making.  Shaun didn't know that a) she had a brother who worked with chemicals or b) that she was into making perfume.  If either one of these two pieces of information were given to Shaun (even just the minor one that she has a side job of making perfume or making her own perfume) he wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that she was constructing a bomb.

Shaun would have made the same assumption given the facts (or lack there of) even if it was a white female. 

Shaun:  "It's used in the pharmaceutical industry (She's a school teacher) it's also used in water treatment and industrial pesticides and chemical weapons. She has no reason to be involved with water treatment or industrial pesticides but she could be a school teacher and a terrorist."

Shaun several times said that she was Muslim and while he didn't give that as a reason for thinking she was making a chemical bomb, would he have jumped to the same conclusion if she were white, or would he have questioned her as to how she could have got the chemical in her system.  Does she work part time with water treatment  Does she belong to  group that is trying to wipe out industrial pesticides? Could she be moonlighting in the pharmaceutical industry and didn't want to say?

If she were white, would he have worked harder to find a non-terrorist explanation or jumped to the same conclusion that he did?

I'm not saying that Shaun is racist, just that he has an internal attribution bias and that's why he didn't look for more information to test his assumptions before concluding that she is a terrorist when statistically the odds of that are astronomically low.

Edited January 24, 2018 by statsgirl
grammar matters

[DearEvette]

23 minutes ago, mary2013 said:

Shaun researched how the chemical is used - pharmaceuticals, water treatment, industrial pesticides and chemical weapons.  She's a schoolteacher, so she wouldn't be exposed through the first 3.  That leaves chemical weapons.  These are the facts as Shaun sees them. I don't see Shaun showing bias.

But what led him to definitively rule out the first three?  Why settle on weapons therefore terrorist?  What fact based evidence did he have that connected her to that specific use?   Why is it easier to believe a schoolteacher is a bomb making terrorist rather than she may have been exposed to it accidentally or in any other benign way.

It makes me wonder what the writers wanted us to take away from that scene.  It could be plausible that Shaun was showing no bias and he would have gone straight to bomb making terrorist no matter the color of the patient and her presumed religion.  But the show didn't make the character white, they made her brown.  So to me it almost feels like the show was trying to make a point that Shaun isn't as free of biases as he thinks.

[vibeology]

Terrorist was a ridiculous jump and totally one based on race. Even if you rule out accidental exposure because of her lies, it's a chemical used in pharmaceuticals. Making drugs is way more common than making bombs. It bugs me that Shaun was so awful to her and faced no real consequences. 

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, mary2013 said:

Shaun researched how the chemical is used - pharmaceuticals, water treatment, industrial pesticides and chemical weapons. 

And perfume making, apparently. What you do is question the patient, not decide on the most terrible explanation for no reason.

And actually, their jobs as doctors is to help her, not to figure out whether she's a criminal. When people come in with drugs in their systems, or gunshot wounds, they are not in the business of judging them, they are supposed to give them medical care.

They should have given her care and told her what the problem was and advised her to avoid re-exposure. They could have asked her if she knew how it happened, and explained that lying to them is making it harder for them to help her. But that's it.

If it had been some other chemical she had no obvious reason to be exposed to, they would have tried to find out what had happened. If she had fertilizer on her, would they have concluded that because she doesn't work in agriculture, she must be planning to blow up the Oklahoma Federal Building?

Also, when she said not to touch her, I immediately thought it was about sexual harassment. It never even occurred to me that it was a religious thing. They were making assumptions about this patient from start to finish.

Contrast this with how Claire investigated the wife who wouldn't give consent. She realized there might be another explanation than what she'd been told, and she asked probing questions until the situation becamse clear. She did not walk around announcing to everyone that the man must be an abuser because otherwise no way would the woman be willing to let him go. Also, I was glad that in that story it was not true that they were hoping he'd die so he wouldn't live disabled. I was very offended by that implication. Him being a batterer was, weirdly (from a storytelling perspective) a huge relief. But it still bothered me that the hospital wasn't willing to take it to court on the grounds that the wife was trying to kill him so he wouldn't survive with some possible blindness, if they were willing to take it to court to stop her from letting him die because he was apparently battering her. That whole thing is totally fucked up in so many ways that it's hard to even know where to start cataloguing them all.

Edited January 24, 2018 by possibilities

[TwistedandBored]

27 minutes ago, vibeology said:

Terrorist was a ridiculous jump and totally one based on race. Even if you rule out accidental exposure because of her lies, it's a chemical used in pharmaceuticals. Making drugs is way more common than making bombs. It bugs me that Shaun was so awful to her and faced no real consequences. 

I think this irritated the most. Like, I was waiting for someone to sit him down and say, he can’t accuse his co-cowers or patients of doing something that could ruin their lives without actually thinking through. 

He should have apologized to that girl but I guessed that was too much to do for the writers.

 

My little cousin is Austistic and we always teach him to think things through and to apologize if he is wrong. So, this was a missed opportunity for the show. 

[bybrandy]

5 hours ago, auntiemel said:

Damn, Glassman. It's possible to be a friend-slash-advisor without going full-on Beverly Goldberg! That's all Shaun's asking for!

Yes, but when your kids start asking for space it happens bit by bit over a course of a lifetime.   With Shaun it has happened over the course of a few weeks/months.   If Gassman never adjusts it will be one thing.  But Gassman's had minutes to respond to a request it has taken Shaun weeks to work out how to make.   

[UsernameFatigue]

22 hours ago, Annber03 said:

The tears in his eyes in that scene... Highmore sure knows how to break your heart, he does. 

I didn't care for either of the medical stories in this episode, but that scene, and the one with Shaun smelling the pine air freshener just broke my heart. I had never watched Bates Motel, and hubby and I started watching the series because of Highmore. We are about half way through, and find it absolutely riveting due to Highmore and Farmiga. 

[Annber03]

Oh, wonderful :)! So glad you're enjoying the show-and if you like what you've seen so far, you'll be glad to know it just keeps getting better and better as the seasons go on, too. 

3 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

find it absolutely riveting due to Highmore and Farmiga. 

They were brilliant together. Such great chemistry.

[Babalooie]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:48 AM, Annber03 said:

Highmore sure knows how to break your heart, he does. 

Yes, even as a child, he played "pitiful" better than anyone.

[aemom]

I cracked up over the autistic individual making sure that Melendez remembered his manners and thanked Jared for saving the non-terrorist woman's life. 

I'm wondering if Glassman might be dying and that's another reason why he's pulling back so hard? This is just sheer speculation based on little things I've seen over the course of the series. Especially when he said that last "Shaun," as Shaun was leaving the office - it was almost as if he wanted to call him back and tell him.

[Ohmo]

On 1/24/2018 at 0:37 AM, bybrandy said:

Yes, but when your kids start asking for space it happens bit by bit over a course of a lifetime.   With Shaun it has happened over the course of a few weeks/months.   If Gassman never adjusts it will be one thing.  But Gassman's had minutes to respond to a request it has taken Shaun weeks to work out how to make.   

In this case, though, Shaun's simply asking to have breakfast.  That's it.  Glassman is being unnecessarily spiteful.  Earlier in the season, Glassman had breakfast with Andrews, and I think he might have also shared a meal with Melendez.  Colleagues often share meals together.  Now, if Glassman had a policy where he would not choose to eat with Claire or Jared because he would not want to appear to be favoring a particular resident in any way, that I would understand.  That scenario would also apply to Shaun, but Glassman should explain that to Shaun.  As it stands, Glassman looks stupid for over-blowing the simple act of sharing a meal with another person.

I agree with those who think Glassman has a terminal illness.  His behavioral choices and the extremeness of his reactions toward Shaun make very little sense otherwise.

Quote

Glassman doesn't love Shaun. He was just enjoying the power and control. So now I have to hate him, fullstop.

I may not be a fan of how Glassman is handling things with Shaun right now, but I completely disagree with this.  I believe Glassman dearly loves Shaun.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Ohmo

[sigmaforce86]

23 hours ago, Ohmo said:

 I agree with those who think Glassman has a terminal illness.  His behavioral choices and the extremeness of his reactions toward Shaun make very little sense otherwise.

I agree.  Going back to the little hints that made some of us think Glassman is sick (other less likely choices he's retiring or has something wrong in his personal life).   So I thought him pulling back on his relationship with Shaun went with that.  That he couldn't get Shaun the helper but that also for some reason he knows he's not going to be there for Shaun either.  I also read that into Glassman's faint "Shaun" as he was leaving Glassman's office - I didn't think it was Glassman about to apologize or say he'd be a friend like Shaun asked....... I thought Glassman was thisclose to telling Shaun whatever it is that's wrong but lost his nerve at the last minute.

Shaun was right about the girl but for the wrong reasons, he does need help and guidance in not blurting out all his accusations and thoughts especially in front of patients.  He'd make a good House - a diagnostician who doesn't really "treat" patients but hears all the info and test results and sees through to the real problem (if this were real life, fora a show of course they can't do that since it would just make the show the new House).  I did like how the girl asked Jared not to touch her - not rude, not accusatory, very calm, very polite AND very succinct like she'd practiced what phrase to use.  It got her needs across without drama (wish I could do that in real life sometimes).

[Pink-n-Green]

1 hour ago, sigmaforce86 said:

He'd make a good House - a diagnostician who doesn't really "treat" patients but hears all the info and test results and sees through to the real problem.

I think Shaun would be a brilliant radiologist or pathologist; both specialties where you can go without face to face contact with a patient!  But I guess an entire hour of Shaun interpreting ultrasounds and CAT scans would be a snoozefest. :)

[SnarkyTart]

For me, this episode was much better than Islands Part 1 and 2, but still lacking in the joy I got from some of the earlier episodes. I'm not feeling as though Shaun has learned anything from his disappearing without notice from work, how inappropriate it was for him to strike Dr. Glassman, or the utter inexcusability of him making remarks in front of the patient about her being a terrorist, or even confronting Dr. Melendez in front of patients and coworkers about his "trauma" or making mistakes.  I thought these issues were being well-addressed in earlier episodes, and showed a lot of potential for Shawn to learn more about interpersonal relationships.  I hope the show returns to more of that.

I also had trouble with the decision not to have Dr. Creepy do the surgical procedure on the aneurysm patient.  The doctor who peformed the surgery readily acknowledged that it wasn't her area of expertise and that Dr. Creepy was much more qualified to do the procedure than she.  It was her decision to do the surgery herself and not ask Dr. Creepy to do it because, well, he's so creepy.  Which he is.  But, were I the patient undergoing a risky lifesaving procedure, I'd want the most qualified and experienced surgeon to perform my operation.   

Edited January 26, 2018 by SnarkyTart
clarity

[jhlipton]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:15 PM, mary2013 said:

Shaun researched how the chemical is used - pharmaceuticals, water treatment, industrial pesticides and chemical weapons. 

Since he didn't find out it was used in the manufacture of perfumes, he obviously didn't research it as thoroughly as he thought he did.  (Of course that was left out for PLOT!!!!)

[Efzee]

On 27-1-2018 at 12:59 AM, jhlipton said:

Since he didn't find out it was used in the manufacture of perfumes, he obviously didn't research it as thoroughly as he thought he did.  (Of course that was left out for PLOT!!!!)

Maybe it's not supposed to be used to make perfume and that's why the patient got sick?

[possibilities]

All the more reason to consider the possibility that it was used in perfume-making, since the patient was sick.

It's not supposed to be used for terrorism, either, but Shaun considered that. As a doctor, he should be considering the options thoroughly, and not eliminating possible avenues of exposure due to failure to thoroughly research it or bais-based assumptions about the most likely routes of exposure.

Really, all he had to do was ask the patient if she could have been exposed to the chemical, since it would explain her symptoms. He never bothered to do that because he was assuming she would continue to lie. But it's still his job to ask, not to assume.

[Court]

They did ask the patient. She said she had never even heard of the chemical when she obviously had.

 Shaun was wrong, but so was she. She lied and almost died for it.

[Efzee]

20 hours ago, possibilities said:

All the more reason to consider the possibility that it was used in perfume-making, since the patient was sick.

It's not supposed to be used for terrorism, either, but Shaun considered that. As a doctor, he should be considering the options thoroughly, and not eliminating possible avenues of exposure due to failure to thoroughly research it or bais-based assumptions about the most likely routes of exposure.

Really, all he had to do was ask the patient if she could have been exposed to the chemical, since it would explain her symptoms. He never bothered to do that because he was assuming she would continue to lie. But it's still his job to ask, not to assume.

That makes no sense. It's like saying he should have considered the possibility that she regularly took a cup of the chemical for breakfast. If it's not supposed to be used in perfume making, then why should  someone consider they used it to make perfume! She only told them she was a schoolteacher (not a chemistry teacher or anything like that), didn't think to mention that she made perfume as a hobby/side business and denied ever hearing of the chemical when she was asked. 

I won't deny her withholding the truth (for fear of her brother getting fired) is a ridiculous plot device, but she was asked about the chemical and denied knowing about it and/or coming into contact with it.  The doctors made  it clear there were 2 courses of treatment and that one would kill her if the cause wasn't what they thought it was.  No one would think she'd put her own life at risk just to conceal the fact she's been making perfume.

[vibeology]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:50 PM, TwistedandBored said:

I think this irritated the most. Like, I was waiting for someone to sit him down and say, he can’t accuse his co-cowers or patients of doing something that could ruin their lives without actually thinking through. 

He should have apologized to that girl but I guessed that was too much to do for the writers.

Yep. it's not like Shaun doesn't understand apologies since he forced one out of Melendez in this very episode. Shaun went all around that hospital talking about the patient being a terrorist and there was nothing. Which is wrong. Shaun being a bit of a dick is actually good writing and interesting. He's someone who suffered a trauma as a young person and has since shut himself off from many close relationships. And until recently, his only close relationship was Glassman who coddled him. Shaun knows he's usually the smartest one in the room so arrogance and being a dick fit his experience. And it's nice to see someone with autism not being portrayed as perfectly good. But for that characterization to work, the show needs to make clear that it knows Shaun is a dick sometimes and when he is that it isn't okay.

[ForReal]

I got a lot of mixed messages in this episode.

I had a problem with Claire not wanting the better surgeon called in just because he's a creep. The other surgeon said their first duty was to their patient, and I agree, so I was surprised that Claire argued otherwise and was willing to let the patient be collateral damage in her battle against the creep. I lost a lot of respect for Claire and a little for the other surgeon who acquiesced. 

I liked when Melendez opened up to his ex at the end. I thought it was decent of him the way he handled her suggestion that maybe they had made a mistake breaking up, but I was a little put off by his statement that his arrogance makes him a good surgeon but would make him a bad husband. Wonder how he thinks that arrogance will work for him as a father.

[candall]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:10 PM, possibilities said:

Claire actually had one, in that patient who was in the room.

Exactly.  I thought I was the only one who remembered the patient playing possum, that she was savvy and quite sympathetic to Claire.

 

--Dr. Glassman?  You're totally incapable of adapting and adjusting your behavior?  Even with this kid you've nurtured his whole life standing there with big tears welling up in his puppydog eyes?  No?

 

--"I love you too much to let you live your life without experiencing parenthood."  Puhleeze.

 

--I'm thinking the mother & son are on a Greyhound bus to another state with a quickly packed duffel bag and brand new names.  Why would the woman trust those doctors not to announce, "So sorry, but we felt compelled to call the police and report your whole spousal abuse and attempted homicide situation.  Be strong."?

 

The writing was a little sketch this week.

On the plus side, I like the actor playing the new next-door neighbor and it was really time for Leah to move along.