S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[mommalib]

4 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

But Kevin was an outsider not just from his own perspective but from what the show is telling us and even Rebecca is acknowledging it. No one is disputing that Randall was a fish out of water in his environment but in his house he was deeply included and overly worried about by Rebecca for the exact reasons you state. 

You might feel that Kevin could have used more attention but he was not an outsider.

[nexxie]

What this episode showed so well is how important it is for kids to be allowed/encouraged to talk about what’s not working for them in the family, and for their complaints to be taken seriously - because what’s not working becomes the baggage we all carry through our lives (until we find a way to set it down and leave it behind). Great episode!

[Runningwild]

22 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

But Kevin was an outsider not just from his own perspective but from what the show is telling us and even Rebecca is acknowledging it. No one is disputing that Randall was a fish out of water in his environment but in his house he was deeply included and overly worried about by Rebecca for the exact reasons you state. 

Yes. Every time they show the family, Kevin is by himself. Jack is always with Kate and Rebecca is always with Randall. Even when they were in court. Kevin was the one not being held. 

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I keep seeing the therapist blamed for expecting Rebecca to have known about addiction running in families.  This isn't new knowledge. Two widely seen movies, which were best selling books first, "The Lost Weekend," in 1945, and "Days of Wine and Roses," in 1962, explain  and illustrate most aspects of alcoholism.  They make clear that addiction is not just a weakness but a disease and that certain people are more likely to become addicted based on genetics and personality types.  I remember the doctor in, "Days of Wine and Roses," telling the woman that her obsession with chocolate had been a warning sign.  Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was first described  in the United States in 1973 and widely discussed in all the women's magazines.  Rebecca, the reader, would have known and Jack would have heard  it discussed at his AA meetings.  The kids should have been warned.

It definitely would have been smart for Rebecca (or Jack) to give the kids a warning about the possibility that they'd be addicts.

That said - so far as we know, Kevin didn't develop a substance abuse problem until he was 37. By that point, shouldn't he have known that there's a genetic component to addiction? If he didn't know at that point, isn't it possible that Rebecca didn't know 20 years earlier?

I get that the issue speaks to the larger issue of Rebecca ignoring Jack's flaws. But to her credit, she and Jack never kept it from the kids that he had a drinking problem. That's the one flaw that she's willing to acknowledge.

[nexxie]

38 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

Yes. Every time they show the family, Kevin is by himself. Jack is always with Kate and Rebecca is always with Randall. Even when they were in court. Kevin was the one not being held. 

Good catch about the court scene - & the writers/directors/editors are awesome the way they layer it all together!

Edited January 12, 2018 by nexxie

[MissLucas]

10 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

That said - so far as we know, Kevin didn't develop a substance abuse problem until he was 37.

I think the show's been pretty coy about this question - there have been hints that maybe he got into trouble with painkillers after his first knee injury but that was never confirmed. I guess we'll have to wait for the flashback.

[moonorchid]

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

You might feel that Kevin could have used more attention but he was not an outsider.

That’s fair.

No one disputes that a black kid being adopted by a white family and living in a predominantly white environment doesn’t automatically make Randall stick out like a sore thumb and he definitely felt that isolation. I’m just saying that for Rebecca and jack, knowing this and never wanting Randall to feel anything less than their son, they nurtured him more than Kevin. “Attention” is almost a trivial way to put it, maybe nurture is more what Kevin was missing. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by moonorchid

[NeverLate]

This episodes shows, no one family gets it all right. We didnt have instruction Manuel's, and Rebecca had three the same age. 

[moonorchid]

2 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

This episodes shows, no one family gets it all right. We didnt have instruction Manuel's, and Rebecca had three the same age. 

This is what I love about how the show is doing this. Kevin is right to feel the way he feels, jack and Rebecca dropped the ball with him but I don’t hate her or even blame her. It’s hard being a parent and that’s to just one child of an age group, I couldn’t imagine have three children all the same age and all with different individual concerns and worries. Compounded with the fact they adopted one of them and the added worry over that. It’s almost understandable how they assigned Kevin as the one they didn’t have to worry about and then things snowballed from there. 

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I think the show's been pretty coy about this question - there have been hints that maybe he got into trouble with painkillers after his first knee injury but that was never confirmed. I guess we'll have to wait for the flashback.

That's why I phrased it as, "so far as we know."

I don't trust the writers not to pull out a shocking twist, even when it doesn't make sense.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, moonorchid said:

That’s fair.

No one disputes that a black kid being adopted by a white family and living in a predominantly white environment doesn’t automatically make Randall stick out like a sore thumb and he definitely felt that isolation. I’m just saying that for Rebecca and jack, knowing this and never wanting Randall to feel anything less than their son, they nurtured him more than Kevin. “Attention” is almost a trivial way to put it, maybe nurture is more what Kevin was missing. 

I agree that nurturing is better word.

As I was reading posts today the thought came to me that Kevin wanted affirmation from his parents. I think the football scene demonstrates that. Rebecca taking few moments to look up from her book to see what Kevin was excited to show her would have affirmed him.

Edited January 12, 2018 by GodsBeloved

[Drumpf1737]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It definitely would have been smart for Rebecca (or Jack) to give the kids a warning about the possibility that they'd be addicts.

This is a curious position since parents rarely have the difficult conversations with their kids. Aren't we always bemoaning parents not talking to their kids about sex? Unless Jack was a falling down, urinating on the Christmas tree kind of alcoholic I can see them thinking it's not something they need to talk to the kids about. However, the big 3 are grown ass adults and have been for 17 years at this point. Wouldn't an intelligent person be more careful with narcotics and alcohol knowing the family history? 

As a child of abuse, I'm finding it difficult to take Kevin seriously. 

[justmythoughts]

It is a useless discussion (although very interesting to know so much different point of views). 

Because when we dismiss Kevin's troubles by saying that he has privileges and of the Big Three he is the one with less reasonsto have problems and he should feel better because he is not Kate nor Randall.. it is the same as saying that you can only be unhappy or have issues if you are - with all proofs - the most troubled and least privileged person in the world. Which means that even people in really bad situation should not complain because usually you will find someone in a worse situation.

It doesn't work like that. As human beings I guess it is impossible to be always 100% happy. Probably the fact that we are not always happy is what makes us enjoy being happy. So, when we don't have much money we tend to value it as a means to happiness, when we don't have a passionate career that is our goal and so on... in Kevin's case he has many things, specially material things, which makes him value more the things that he doesn't have: he was never the favourite. Loved, cared, for sure. But never the favourite. And he will never have his father back. 

As I said, I guess it is just human and I understand that he has all the right to, although being very privileged, have his weaknesses and his needs. 

[nexxie]

Anyone remember if Kevin’s divorce had something to do with substance abuse?

[BunnyFooFoo]

I'm new to this forum but I've been watching the show from the first episode.

 

I want to address the alcohol/addiction issue. My father was an alcoholic. I didn't know it, or I didn't think it. As a kid I knew that come the holidays my dad would drink, start fights, and break furniture. However, it wasn't until I saw a therapist as an adult that I found out he was an alcoholic. I thought, mistakenly, that an alcoholic drinks every day, and my father didn't. I learned that if a person drinks occasionally, but their drinking is out of control during those occasions, they're also an alcoholic.

Many of the men in my family had a drinking problem, so it's probably genetic, but it didn't stop me from drinking. I suppose I could easily fall into that addiction, besides my smoking, but so far I've kept an eye on myself and made sure I don't follow my family in that regard.

No one ever sat me down and had a discussion about the family history, but we didn't put my father on a pedestal either. I think though, that when children love their family, and love their life, they tend to hold onto the good memories and overlook the bad. Just my 2 cents.

[movingtargetgal]

On 1/11/2018 at 9:27 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Also, I do feel bad for Tess and I can't even blame her for wanting to leave with Kevin. I do think what Randall did with William and then with Deja was on him and he was so involved in himself that he didn't see the problems forming around him. 

Randall was so selfish in rushing into becoming a foster parent so soon after his girls lost William.  Beth is just as bad for enabling him.  Those girls suddenly had their new grandfather living with them and within a few months he died.  Randall rushed into becoming a foster parent to fill the void after losing William.  He did not consider the fact that his girls were still grieving and needed time to heal.  He just dragged them into another emotional minefield.  Beth should have put on the brakes for the sake of her girls but she was too worried about Randall having another breakdown so she did not stop the insanity.  This was really bad parenting on both of their parts. 

[DebbieM4]

6 hours ago, mommalib said:

Kevin was the outsider form his own perspective because of the extra attention that he felt he didn't get. The real fish out of water was Randall for obvious reasons, and the way Kevin treated him didn't make things any better.

I've never seen any indication that he wanted "extra" attention.  He just wanted attention that didn't so drastically pale in comparison to what the others got.  Rebecca was focused on Randall, and Jack was focused on Kate. 

Kevin wasn't totally neglected, but it's obvious he wasn't the favorite of either of his parents, and he fell by the wayside much too often.  He had to have felt that at an early age, long before he was capable of giving Randall a hard time.  He may have been able to justify Kate being a Daddy's Girl, but Randall was real and true competition in his eyes, and that's understandable, IMO, based on what we've seen.  It's no wonder that he acted out against Randall when he was old enough to do so.  That's what kids do when they feel threatened and jealous, and at that point it had probably been clear to him for some time that Randall consistently and effortlessly received a disproportionate amount of attention.  "The way Kevin treated him" was likely a direct result of Kevin's hurt, anger, and confusion as to why things were so off-balance (as well as feelings of insecurity based on perceiving himself as less loved by his parents).  I'm not saying they didn't love him, just that it makes perfect sense it would seem that way when viewed through a child's eyes.

[Runningwild]

26 minutes ago, movingtargetgal said:

Randall was so selfish in rushing into becoming a foster parent so soon after his girls lost William.  Beth is just as bad for enabling him.  Those girls suddenly had their new grandfather living with them and within a few months he died.  Randall rushed into becoming a foster parent to fill the void after losing William.  He did not consider the fact that his girls were still grieving and needed time to heal.  He just dragged them into another emotional minefield.  Beth should have put on the brakes for the sake of her girls but she was too worried about Randall having another breakdown so she did not stop the insanity.  This was really bad parenting on both of their parts. 

Randall has always been pretty self-absorbed. He had to do Halloween his way. He had to study in his and Kevin’s bedroom while Kevin was trying to sleep. 

But Beth was also selfish here. Randall wanted to adopt. Beth pushed him to foster instead. So they knew they would all have to deal with more loss without properly grieving for the first loss. 

[Drumpf1737]

Quote

Anyone remember if Kevin’s divorce had something to do with substance abuse?

He cheated.

Wouldnt Sophie have been around for high school drug abuse?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Drumpf1737

[justmythoughts]

3 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

We can always find someone who has a harder life, but that doesn't mean our own problems aren't real.

Amem  to that! Perfectly explained! That is why I try to relate with all of them because I can't sanely say that because someone has some good things in their life they can't complain about anything else... otherwise I could not complain about anything as well... in such case we all should not complain about some of the low points of the show, as it has many great stuff... 

Anyways, Kevin has a valid point because either we consider his childhood as a little problematic or not, that doesn't matter... his perspective matter, we and his family should respect that as well as we respect Randall and Kate's perspective of their problems. 

[GSMHvisitor]

11 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

However, the big 3 are grown ass adults and have been for 17 years at this point. Wouldn't an intelligent person be more careful with narcotics and alcohol knowing the family history? 

But he was careful with pain meds at first. He took them after he hurt his knee, but then stopped, explaining to his doctor he didn't like how they made him feel. But then later he got revised script pages from the Stallone movie and they had changed his lines, diminishing his role just a little bit, because obviously he couldn't be on set for a while. And Kevin being Kevin and having felt like he wasn't enough all his childhood, couldn't have that, couldn't bear it, and that's when he started taking pills to get back on set asap - welcomed side effect: that nasty voice got drowned out too.

[debraran]

It would be odd if the pain pills years ago didn't have some effect on him, but that time was not shown yet because it was too close to when Jack died. He had a pretty bad break and maybe the "didn't make me feel good" line was that he knew what happened. I also thought that was why Kate was telling him to be careful but in a way that could be taken 2 ways. The writers like to do that to keep options open.

There are addictive personalities and genes can be a reason but not always. Working at an ortho office I see so much of it, some weren't on that long, some were, but it's not an easy fix.

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, justmythoughts said:

It is a useless discussion (although very interesting to know so much different point of views). 

Because when we dismiss Kevin's troubles by saying that he has privileges and of the Big Three he is the one with less reasonsto have problems and he should feel better because he is not Kate nor Randall.. it is the same as saying that you can only be unhappy or have issues if you are - with all proofs - the most troubled and least privileged person in the world. Which means that even people in really bad situation should not complain because usually you will find someone in a worse situation.

It doesn't work like that. As human beings I guess it is impossible to be always 100% happy. Probably the fact that we are not always happy is what makes us enjoy being happy. So, when we don't have much money we tend to value it as a means to happiness, when we don't have a passionate career that is our goal and so on... in Kevin's case he has many things, specially material things, which makes him value more the things that he doesn't have: he was never the favourite. Loved, cared, for sure. But never the favourite. And he will never have his father back. 

As I said, I guess it is just human and I understand that he has all the right to, although being very privileged, have his weaknesses and his needs. 

I agree with this totally. I have always disliked people saying "think of how much better you have it than xyz."  It's usually meant as well intended encouragement, but it doesn't stop the pain,  doesn't even particularly mitigate it, and often makes it just a little bit worse. It's dismissive and the subtext is that your feelings are not valid and you're not allowed to struggle. 

On a slightly related topic, I recently watched Donald Sutherland in an interview (60 Minutes, I think). He related how he felt ugly all his life, partly because his mother hedged when he asked her as a young man if he was good looking. He struggled during that part of the interview, tearing up. I was very moved and teared up right along with him. As someone who has beaten herself up over not getting over some childhood issues, it was kind of a relief to see someone in his 80's still struggling. It was the opposite of "get over it" it was "it's okay to feel your pain, no matter how old you are."

[MissLucas]

Yes, 'get over it' and 'others have it much worse' are some of the most toxic statements being tossed around. There are moments when they can actually help but those are very rare and more often than not they're being used as a quick fix for a problem that requires anything but. Kevin's problems go back to the childhood experience that both his siblings got more attention (or nurture) than he did. There's no easy fix for that, you can't go back in time and tell 7 years old Kevin: 'Stop whining - you're a specimen of the most privileged class on this planet: white, male with perfect Caucasian bone structure' (or however Toby put that). You have no Tardis and Kevin wouldn't understand what you're saying. And it doesn't help telling that to adult Kevin either because that won't erase the childhood experience and the feelings attached to that experience - and in this sense feelings are indeed facts. Once you acknowledge that you might be able to move on and 'get over it' but it entails a lot more than someone yelling at you to 'get over it'.

Edited January 13, 2018 by MissLucas

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree - there is always someone who had it worse than you, but that’s no reason to swallow your pain in silence. Minimizing or dismissing one person’s problems or suffering in comparison to someone else’s is essentially telling the first person to STFU. It’s not a competition to see who had more pain or privilege or luck. Regardless of your circumstances, what you feel is what you feel, and that’s still valid even if you weren’t born in a war torn country, sold into prostitution by your own parents, etc. You’re still allowed to feel angry, hurt, disappointed, or whatever. 

[TwoGrayTabbies]

11 hours ago, Runningwild said:

Randall has always been pretty self-absorbed. He had to do Halloween his way. He had to study in his and Kevin’s bedroom while Kevin was trying to sleep. 

But Beth was also selfish here. Randall wanted to adopt. Beth pushed him to foster instead. So they knew they would all have to deal with more loss without properly grieving for the first loss. 

This is a good example of how Beth sometimes endorses Randall’s well-intended, but misplaced righteousness when she’s in the best position to point out the adverse effects of going overboard.  I know it sucks to pull out the wet blanket when someone gets overheated with charitible urges, but Beth should have been more attentive to her daughters’ needs.

This is why I strongly want more development of Tess’s story.  I hope her stowing away in Kevin’s car wasn’t just a plot device to make Kevin’s DUI as bad as can be without actually having him crash.

[TwoGrayTabbies]

3 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree - there is always someone who had it worse than you, but that’s no reason to swallow your pain in silence. Minimizing or dismissing one person’s problems or suffering in comparison to someone else’s is essentially telling the first person to STFU. It’s not a competition to see who had more pain or privilege or luck. Regardless of your circumstances, what you feel is what you feel, and that’s still valid even if you weren’t born in a war torn country, sold into prostitution by your own parents, etc. You’re still allowed to feel angry, hurt, disappointed, or whatever. 

Absolutely!  I’m a postpartum depression survivor.  If I had a dollar for every time some judgmental jerk tells a mom with PPD that she should compare herself to women struggling with fertility, or to moms with unhealthy kids, I could make a nice donation to my favorite PPD charity.  

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

This is why I strongly want more development of Tess’s story.  I hope her stowing away in Kevin’s car wasn’t just a plot device to make Kevin’s DUI as bad as can be without actually having him crash.

I hope so too. Tess being in the car didn't add to the story. Kevin still could have gotten pulled over for speeding and the therapy session could have gone as it did.

[ShadowFacts]

25 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree - there is always someone who had it worse than you, but that’s no reason to swallow your pain in silence. Minimizing or dismissing one person’s problems or suffering in comparison to someone else’s is essentially telling the first person to STFU. It’s not a competition to see who had more pain or privilege or luck. Regardless of your circumstances, what you feel is what you feel, and that’s still valid even if you weren’t born in a war torn country, sold into prostitution by your own parents, etc. You’re still allowed to feel angry, hurt, disappointed, or whatever. 

Yes, feelings are valid and shouldn't be diminished or silenced.  That's why Kevin's unloading about his fifth-wheel status is a good thing.  Finally.  Rebecca's reactions are equally valid.  What they do next will be interesting.  I do think, however, that in general there is such a thing as whining about inconsequential things that is habitual for some people, and I put that in a whole different category.  If every kid in a kindergarten class had every passing negative feeling attended to, have mercy.  In order to learn to weather storms, people have to weather storms.  Kevin wasn't ignored all of the time, just as Rebecca didn't comment on every single thing Kate ever ate, and didn't jump to attention for Randall's every hiccup.  They have all suffered the slings and arrows of being human.  As someone said earlier in the thread, there's baggage, and there's learning to leave it behind when we're ready.  Some memories will never be extinguished.  Hopefully Kevin is on track to keep moving forward. 

[justmythoughts]

41 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

As someone said earlier in the thread, there's baggage, and there's learning to leave it behind when we're ready.  Some memories will never be extinguished.  Hopefully Kevin is on track to keep moving forward. 

Agreed again, valid point. 

But I guess the problem is people - in general life, not necessarily here on this forum - want to decide for you when it is time to deal with your baggage. Just because I had a similar situation and learned from it or haven't felt the same pain or struggled that much it doens't mean other people will deal with it in the same way. 

People tend to say things like: I have problems but I don't lash out eating all the food in my house because I know it is no good for me, and I have struggled with my weight as a teen, so Kate should be able to overcome that, she is almost 40! (Just an example to diverge from Kevin)

Well, good for you! It doens't mean Kate will have the same strength or motivation or psychologycal ground you had. Each person is unique and is going to deal with similar baggage on their own way and time.

[catrox14]

MO, they are all still dealing with Jack's death and alcoholism. And if alcohol was involved in his death, that's a whole other level of stuff that keeps people living in resentment even if they don't know that is what is happening.

Just my musings on things that came out of this episode.

Kevin may never be able to switch off that part of his brain that is attached to feeling ignored and unimportant to Beth because that moment was formed when he was so young. It might be that the best he can do is forgive her if he can and keep trying to have a relationship. I think Kevin has found a way to live with his grief or maybe not if he's drinking because he modeled something he saw when he saw Jack drinking. Maybe it's a genetic thing. Maybe Kevin just had a moment of such deep sorrow and emotional pain that he was burying it with drinking. Maybe the best he can do is forgive Jack for drinking and hope the others will forgive him for his behavior.

Kate may never get over Jack's death. She may have to just cope with the loss as a traumatic aspect of her life forever and find possibly other, healthier coping method. She tries though that's for sure. I think she is burying her anger at Jack for dying at all especially if it's tied to his alcoholism which I don't know if that's been clarified or not. She may resent Beth for being so hard on her about her weight and being a weird source of conflict between Beth and Jack over her weight. Maybe she's carrying unnecessary guilt for that because she just wanted her family to be happy. IMO the best Kate might be able to do is forgive Jack for dying and forgive herself for resenting Jack for dying and to try and forgive Beth for being hard on her about her weight.

Beth can't change what she did as a young who didn't understand that she was hurting Kate, and Kevin, in her worry over Randall, and Kate, respectively. Randall was hurt because of her worry over him because now his sibling is hurt by it. Maybe the best Beth can do is ask for forgiveness and to forgive herself.

Randall may never be able to give up his need for control, which IMO is how he limits his anxiety and panic attacks vs just being an asshole. I think he is projecting a lot onto Kevin about his daughter being in the car because she might not have gotten into the car if Randall had pinged that she was kind of unhappy and she just wanted to be with Uncle Kevin.   IMO Randall was trying to have some kind of control  over his father's death because Jack's death was sudden and threw his life out of balance. The best Randall can do is try to forgive Kevin for his actions and forgive himself for not seeing what has going on with his daughter.

Jack's drinking problem threw everyone off and keeps things out of balance because they don't know what to expect from Jack be it good or bad. And IMO part of Randall's controlling behavior came out of both of those things because he doesn't trust that the world won't screw him over again. 

The problem for all of them is that forgiveness is really hard and takes a long time. To quote another fictional character who I won't name for fear of spoilers: "It's not my place to forgive you for all of it, but what I can forgive, I do.” And keep trying to forgive and love. It's harder than hell though because old resentments still come up and trigger stuff. Basically life is hard and it comes down to whether one is willing to try and whether you believe the other parties are willing to try.

Edited January 13, 2018 by catrox14

[ChicksDigScars]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:02 AM, Jaclyn88 said:

Just because he was a cute jock he can't have problems or feel upset about things? Not all  people fit into just one category. Sometimes the people you think have the least problems really have the most.

And that's not even what I said.  These people had three children AT THE SAME TIME. It is impossible to give all three equal attention at the same times that they need it. They're playing zone defense right off the bat, not man to man. Jack and Rebecca never had the eldest baby alone to pamper and dote over. Then, they never had a second child, where there was a parent for each child. They had three at once.  They were at a disadvantage from the get go. 

Kevin was Number One. He was called Number One. He was christened the leader, who did everything first. In their eyes, he was the one who was the most well adjusted, the most well off. He didn't need them as much.  Whether that is right or wrong, that is typical of parents put into an overwhelming situation of a multiple birth that outnumbers them. And as we've seen in this thread, even real life parents who did NOT have all their children at once are guilty of this. That said, he got plenty of attention. Football camps cost MONEY. Taping your child at games and keeping a collection of videos to send to recruiters takes time, attention and effort.  Most children would be jealous of the attention that their sibling gets in that situation. Many times, Jack was shown talking to Kevin about how he treated other children, and Kevin blew him off and kept acting like a bratty teenage jock that everyone worships. Jack's comment about "I'm certainly glad you're taking that talk we had seriously," proves that Jack DID spend time with Kevin, and did ATTEMPT to teach him right from wrong, which Kevin blew off. He had Kate at his beck and call as an adult. She put his needs ahead of her relationship with Toby plenty of times. Kevin is shown as dropping in on his siblings, uninvited, whenever he wants. "Oh, sorry, is it a bad time?" He selfishly cheated on his wife and destroyed his marriage. The marriage that Rebecca was crucified for NOT including when she talked about "milestones that Jack missed." Maybe she didn't mention Kevin's wedding because that marriage was unsuccessful and over?  Because of Kevin's infidelity? Bringing it up would have just brought another one of Kevin's shortcomings up in the session.  But no. Damned if she did and damned if she didn't, which explains Rebecca's experience with motherhood for both Kevin AND Kate. 

Kevin simply needs to take some responsibility for his own actions, is all I'm saying. He was not neglected. He grew up in a two parent household with parents that loved him and siblings who tried to, despite the way he treated them. Now he complains? Now he reduces his mother to tears and makes her feel like she was a failure as a parent?  It's a two way street.  Even though this is fiction, I'd have loved to be "neglected" the way Kevin was. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Kevin simply needs to take some responsibility for his own actions, is all I'm saying. He was not neglected. He grew up in a two parent household with parents that loved him and siblings who tried to, despite the way he treated them. Now he complains? Now he reduces his mother to tears and makes her feel like she was a failure as a parent?  It's a two way street.  Even though this is fiction, I'd have loved to be "neglected" the way Kevin was. 

Kevin is taking responsibility for his actions by going to rehab and he'll be facing charges of some kind. He didn't say she was a terrible parent. He said he felt alone and ignored. If Beth is taking it in that she's a terrible parent that's how she's receiving the message. Not what he's saying necessarily. 

A child can be emotionally neglected even they are fed and clothed and have two parents in the household. Especially a household with alcoholism. Because that is what rules the house. Everyone is worrying about whether Jack will drink, or not. Can he be relied upon or not? Will he come home drunk? Will he come home at all? Do his moods  affect everyone around him? Trust is hard to come by at times in a home with alcoholism.

[HeyThere83]

1 hour ago, ChicksDigScars said:

And that's not even what I said.  These people had three children AT THE SAME TIME. It is impossible to give all three equal attention at the same times that they need it. They're playing zone defense right off the bat, not man to man. Jack and Rebecca never had the eldest baby alone to pamper and dote over. Then, they never had a second child, where there was a parent for each child. They had three at once.  They were at a disadvantage from the get go. 

Kevin was Number One. He was called Number One. He was christened the leader, who did everything first. In their eyes, he was the one who was the most well adjusted, the most well off. He didn't need them as much.  Whether that is right or wrong, that is typical of parents put into an overwhelming situation of a multiple birth that outnumbers them. And as we've seen in this thread, even real life parents who did NOT have all their children at once are guilty of this. That said, he got plenty of attention. Football camps cost MONEY. Taping your child at games and keeping a collection of videos to send to recruiters takes time, attention and effort.  Most children would be jealous of the attention that their sibling gets in that situation. Many times, Jack was shown talking to Kevin about how he treated other children, and Kevin blew him off and kept acting like a bratty teenage jock that everyone worships. Jack's comment about "I'm certainly glad you're taking that talk we had seriously," proves that Jack DID spend time with Kevin, and did ATTEMPT to teach him right from wrong, which Kevin blew off. He had Kate at his beck and call as an adult. She put his needs ahead of her relationship with Toby plenty of times. Kevin is shown as dropping in on his siblings, uninvited, whenever he wants. "Oh, sorry, is it a bad time?" He selfishly cheated on his wife and destroyed his marriage. The marriage that Rebecca was crucified for NOT including when she talked about "milestones that Jack missed." Maybe she didn't mention Kevin's wedding because that marriage was unsuccessful and over?  Because of Kevin's infidelity? Bringing it up would have just brought another one of Kevin's shortcomings up in the session.  But no. Damned if she did and damned if she didn't, which explains Rebecca's experience with motherhood for both Kevin AND Kate. 

Kevin simply needs to take some responsibility for his own actions, is all I'm saying. He was not neglected. He grew up in a two parent household with parents that loved him and siblings who tried to, despite the way he treated them. Now he complains? Now he reduces his mother to tears and makes her feel like she was a failure as a parent?  It's a two way street.  Even though this is fiction, I'd have loved to be "neglected" the way Kevin was. 

This story and character is not well written at all. They decided this season I guess that they really needed to drive home some point that Kevin was a neglected child and use more extreme examples that don't fit well with the way this story was presented last season. They also had to make him an addict even though there were no signs last season that I can remember. But part of that is probably because Justin and Dan probably had some meeting about ways to get him some acting nominations.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

This story and character is not well written at all. They decided this season I guess that they really needed to drive home some point that Kevin was a neglected child and use more extreme examples that don't fit well with the way this story was presented last season. They also had to make him an addict even though there were no signs last season that I can remember. But part of that is probably because Justin and Dan probably had some meeting about ways to get him some acting nominations.

I buy it because I think they planted the seeds for it happening all along. He picked wrong partners, not that that were bad people but not right for him or more that he wasn't ready to be in a relationship. He tried to reconcile with his ex for the wrong reasons.

I think it comes across that he's a weasily douchebag but I really think on some level he was seeking emotional connection that he didn't get from Beth and that was why his relationships don't work. Because they can't fill the hole that is missing in him from that nor could it be filled by success in school, football, acting or relationships. He turns to Kate because she is always there for him.

And finally after he broke up with his ex again and went back to his school IMO, that just triggered a lot of shit for him and he buried the pain in alcohol because IMO, he didn't want to feel like he was betraying Beth by admitting how he felt as a child.

That is the wound IMO he was trying to fill with everything under the sun leading up to his drinking binge.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, HeyThere83 said:

They decided this season I guess that they really needed to drive home some point that Kevin was a neglected child and use more extreme examples that don't fit well with the way this story was presented last season

I think all the "neglect" has been subtle.  there hasn't been anything more extreme than them ignoring him at the pool, IMO, and that was last season.

 

1 hour ago, HeyThere83 said:

They also had to make him an addict even though there were no signs last season that I can remember.

He doesn't have to be an addict all his life to get addicted to pain pills.  It can happen to anyone.

[Blakeston]

22 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

This is a curious position since parents rarely have the difficult conversations with their kids. Aren't we always bemoaning parents not talking to their kids about sex? Unless Jack was a falling down, urinating on the Christmas tree kind of alcoholic I can see them thinking it's not something they need to talk to the kids about. However, the big 3 are grown ass adults and have been for 17 years at this point. Wouldn't an intelligent person be more careful with narcotics and alcohol knowing the family history?

That was my point - that Kevin, as a 37-year-old, should have figured out for himself that he was at risk for addiction.

But I think anyone who's going to be open with their kids about their addiction problems would be wise to mention that it's genetic. There are alcoholics out there who could have avoided a lot of pain if they'd known from the beginning that it was especially risky for them to experiment with alcohol.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think all the "neglect" has been subtle.  there hasn't been anything more extreme than them ignoring him at the pool, IMO, and that was last season.

 

He doesn't have to be an addict all his life to get addicted to pain pills.  It can happen to anyone.

That's true, but they had kevin get addicted with one Rx. He wanted another and didn't want to go for checkup which you need to do usually. His drinking was more to replace the pills, I'm sure Kevin drank the last 20 years without spiraling, he was trying to compensate for not having the pills.

I think they will touch on his anger with Jack too, the destroying the airplanes, etc. Sometimes people are angry with the person for dying but in his case, there might be multiple reasons, not making peace for something, feeling cheated, feeling pressures.

You never hear anyone though blame Kate, although she does, and has said numerous times that the fans will dislike her, at least initially but I think a lot of that is in her head as guilt.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

This story and character is not well written at all. They decided this season I guess that they really needed to drive home some point that Kevin was a neglected child and use more extreme examples that don't fit well with the way this story was presented last season. They also had to make him an addict even though there were no signs last season that I can remember. But part of that is probably because Justin and Dan probably had some meeting about ways to get him some acting nominations.

No, the show established that Kevin was not as important to Rebecca as Randall in the first season.  Through flashbacks to the trip to the pool where Kevin almost drowned, and in the 2017 timeline.   Kevin comments that she had never gone to a taping of his show.  The family has enough money for a plane ticket.  I think one of the excuses was Miguel's gout.  This has been an issue for Kevin since the beginning.

[CheezyXpressed]

On 1/11/2018 at 10:32 PM, mommalib said:

Like she said he was and is the easiest to love. He never pushed her away or abandoned her or blamed her for any of his problems. And unlike Kevin and Kate, Randall was always respectful to her and I think they share common interest. With Kevin it was always a push and pull not mention he was kind of ass even as a kid. And Kate always made her the villain and Jack the hero.

I'm glad  the show is adding more layers to Rebecca, since last season she was depicted as a horrible person and Jack as a saint. But I was especially glad to see Randall defend during the therapy session. Rebecca had to take care of three kids without much help from Jack. Jack is perfect, sure, but Rebecca had to be the parent 100% while he could be a friend. That makes her look worse since she had to  bare that responsibility.

With Kate, Rebecca will always be the villain. Even when Rebecca tries, Kate will take it the wrong way. Kevin is very much push and pull, but with Randall he's there. Even after the whole William thing, he's still there and that's was a huge thing that she hid from him. The fact that he's still respectful, still cares for her, and doesn't attack her is the reason why she's closer to him than the others.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, CheezyXpressed said:

 

With Kate, Rebecca will always be the villain. Even when Rebecca tries, Kate will take it the wrong way. Kevin is very much push and pull, but with Randall he's there. Even after the whole William thing, he's still there and that's was a huge thing that she hid from him. The fact that he's still respectful, still cares for her, and doesn't attack her is the reason why she's closer to him than the others.

But it’s very much a case of the chicken or the egg- is he better to her because he’s always been her favorite or is he her favorite because he treats her better.

[CheezyXpressed]

Just now, deaja said:

But it’s very much a case of the chicken or the egg- is he better to her because he’s always been her favorite or is he her favorite because he treats her better.

I don't think she had a favourite, but Randall was someone who had more special needs with his anxiety, school and his blackness. When parents have multiple kids, it's easy to feel you're ignored and forgotten, but from the outside it's just that the parent is prioritizing who needs more attention. (I'm not a parent, so this is me just assuming things. Parents please feel free to dismiss this or not)

I sympathized with Kevin, but at the same time I kind of don't. In my family, we joke that I get ignored most of the time. I don't have any commonality with my parents and I know that I'm not the favourite. Does it suck to know this? I don't think so. Just like you are your own person, your parents are people too. Sometimes I feel like the show's romantic view of Jack made the kids view Rebecca as a less than ideal mom. So even though there are clear flaws in Jack's character, the kids won't realize it but they'll be quick to lay the blame with Rebecca since she was their full time parent.

A great example of this is Kate. She viewed food with love due to Jack. When Rebecca set up boundaries, which is what all parents do, Jack undermined her and rewarded Kate with more food. This is probably what triggered her massive weight gain after he died, because she used food to comfort her and food = Jack. However, she might view it as Rebecca's fault since she was on her case a few times about food.

We've seen Jack ignore Kevin multiple times already, but Rebecca is getting most of the blame because she's alive.

[DebbieM4]

On 1/12/2018 at 3:56 PM, mommalib said:

You might feel that Kevin could have used more attention but he was not an outsider.

He felt like an outsider.  That's the point.  No one did it on purpose, but assuming that the good-looking, Caucasian, athletic kid was not in need of attention was a mistake.  He sought their attention many times, was disregarded, and he noticed.  From the time he was young all the way up until adulthood.  EVERY child needs attention, even the ones who may not seem to.  A child who apparently has everything is still a child, and needs to feel security from his parents and within his family.  Beautiful people with everything going for them rarely view themselves that way, and insecurity can actually run deeper for them and be more damaging because more is expected of them (often by themselves).

(On a side note, I worked in the mental health field for many years in a very high-end, privileged area.  We treated lots of celebrities, beautiful people with money and fame who seemingly had it all, the kind of people everyone envies.  I learned pretty quickly not to envy anyone.  Even with the odds seemingly stacked way high in someone's favor, they are fighting problems and demons and insecurities and worse.  And many of them grew up as "golden children", who seemed to have the world on a string but actually were struggling quite a bit.)

On 1/12/2018 at 4:18 PM, Runningwild said:

Yes. Every time they show the family, Kevin is by himself. Jack is always with Kate and Rebecca is always with Randall. Even when they were in court. Kevin was the one not being held. 

Interesting observation!  I hadn't noticed that.  I'd be interested in looking back at past episodes to see how many other examples there were before viewers were alerted to look for them.  I'm sure there are many that went unnoticed by most of us.

[kili]

Quote

That said - so far as we know, Kevin didn't develop a substance abuse problem until he was 37. By that point, shouldn't he have known that there's a genetic component to addiction? If he didn't know at that point, isn't it possible that Rebecca didn't know 20 years earlier?

I think what the counsellor was getting at was that Jack's addiction is a taboo subject in the family. Rebecca didn't want to discuss how Jack was an addict in the session. She didn't even want to discuss it even if it might save her children from the same fate (having the discussion about how addiction runs in the family). She just buried it.

Kate doesn't even seem to admit there was a problem with Jack (her blaming all the marital problems on her mom as a teen and her "We are not a family of addicts" during the session). 

A problem that is ignored is really hard to solve. They have to be dragged into the light. Jack hid his drinking and didn't want to come home. Kevin hid his addiction in a hotel room and isolated himself from everybody). Kate hid her eating at the bottom of a garbage can.  Until they are acknowledged and worked on, they can't be solved. By treating Jack's addiction as a taboo subject, they are all saying that addiction is something that we just subsume and try to solve on our own.

When we first see Kevin in this episode, he's being his normal fake-charming actorly self (Beth even calls it at the bar). That's because he spends most of his life subsuming his issues and giving an "I'm fine" face to the world. He is always playing a character. He starts out the session as a character and his counsellor tells him that he needs to be real. Until he starts facing his issues and being honest with people, he cannot solve his problems and he will continue to have problems with addiction. The rest of the family would be well-advised to start unpacking their issues as well. 

Admitting that Jack was an addict can help Kevin heal. It can help them all heal.

[memememe76]

The Pool episode was the first big episode where Kevin's neglect was spotlighted. And the three birthday parties episode also showed why the parents weren't necessarily wrong to focus on Randall (who had only two people show up to his party) and Kate (where people preferred to hang out with Kevin--including Sophie, which I still haven't forgiven her about). And not have as much concern for Kevin, who at a young age knew how to charm people. There was also the funeral scene where he explained his fascination with model planes.

And in the present day scenes, without it stating it outright, it always appeared that Kate had a much closer relationship with Randall. Her relationship with Kate was more clearly strained.

Edited January 14, 2018 by memememe76

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, memememe76 said:

The Pool episode was the first big episode where Kevin's neglect was spotlighted. And the three birthday parties episode also showed why the parents weren't necessarily wrong to focus on Randall (who had only two people show up to his party) and Kate (where people preferred to hang out with Kevin--including Sophie, which I still haven't forgiven her about). And not have as much concern for Kevin, who at a young age knew how to charm people. There was also the funeral scene where he explained his fascination with model planes.

And the ironic thing is Randall didn't care that he only had 2 friends at his party. He preferred quality friends over quantity of acquaintances. This is something Rebecca finds out because she is attuned to Randall and then she asks him about it. So in that situation Randall didn't need Rebecca's focus. She assumed that he was troubled when he wasn't, as opposed to her and Jack seeming to more times than not assume that Kevin was fine because he had "everything"/didn't have issues to deal with compared to Randall and Kate.

If I'm not mistaken, Jack went to Kate again because he was attuned to her.

At the pool, one or both of his parents should have been attuned to Kevin because in that setting they both knew it was Kevin who they needed to be aware of the most. He was the only child who didn't know how to swim and this was literally a life and death situation.

Edited January 14, 2018 by GodsBeloved

[Clanstarling]

When I was a young mother, I saw another woman at a mall who was pushing her triplets in a stroller. I watched her, thinking that I couldn't imagine how difficult it would be to tend to three children all at once. I was having enough trouble tending to the needs of one. My second one came along four years later, and it was a struggle to meet each of their needs - because kids don't get easier as they get older, the things that get difficult change. Three is a tricky number in any human dynamic, someone is always left out at some point.

Even when we parent a single child, we make mistakes - which may or may not be held against us by our children. Our own parents made mistakes, and some of us are still clearly dealing with those (I know I am). We're all human, we don't have scripts, training manuals, or users guides, and we don't know how it's all going to come out in the end.

Kevin had reasons to feel the way he felt, and for that matter, as annoying as I find Kate (even though I struggle with similar issues), so did she. But to be fair to Rebecca and Jack, it is beyond difficult to give everyone the attention they need when doing everything you have to do to make sure they're clothed, fed, and healthy, and on top of that, being a spouse. 

So while I find the dynamics very interesting, and I'm not particularly fond of Rebecca (and frankly, less so of Jack), I can't fault them for being human. And I can't fault the kids for having issues. That's life. It is a messy business. 

Which is, of course, why this show is so fun to watch. None of us want to watch Leave it to Beaver, or Father Knows Best, right?

Edited January 14, 2018 by Clanstarling

[ShadowFacts]

46 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

When I was a young mother, I saw another woman at a mall who was pushing her triplets in a stroller. I watched her, thinking that I couldn't imagine how difficult it would be to tend to three children all at once. I was having enough trouble tending to the needs of one. My second one came along four years later, and it was a struggle to meet each of their needs - because kids don't get easier as they get older, the things that get difficult change. Three is a tricky number in any human dynamic, someone is always left out at some point.

Even when we parent a single child, we make mistakes - which may or may not be held against us by our children. Our own parents made mistakes, and some of us are still clearly dealing with those (I know I am). We're all human, we don't have scripts, training manuals, or users guides, and we don't know how it's all going to come out in the end.

Kevin had reasons to feel the way he felt, and for that matter, as annoying as I find Kate (even though I struggle with similar issues), so did she. But to be fair to Rebecca and Jack, it is beyond difficult to give everyone the attention they need when doing everything you have to do to make sure they're clothed, fed, and healthy, and on top of that, being a spouse. 

So while I find the dynamics very interesting, and I'm not particularly fond of Rebecca (and frankly, less so of Jack), I can't fault them for being human. And I can't fault the kids for having issues. That's life. It is a messy business. 

Which is, of course, why this show is so fun to watch. None of us want to watch Leave it to Beaver, or Father Knows Best, right?

Right!  We're not into it for that kind of saccharine (the kind of saccharine here where people are sainted is a big negative for me).  And you're so right about the three same age kiddos.  How exhausting that must be in the early years. 

At some point forgiveness comes in, even if it isn't directly expressed.  Things my parents did that bothered me over the years really lost their power over me once I had raised my own family -- you understand the challenges and pitfalls and impossibility of being perfect.  I feel like Kevin is heading in that direction now, with verbalizing his pain, and telling his mother he didn't have a bad childhood.  I'm sure they'll speed it up and spiff it up for TV, but him being stuck in unexpressed pain has mucked up his life for quite a long time and it would be nice to see him freeing himself of some of that. 

[Quark]

Easily one of the best episodes of the series.

It's also nice that Kate Burton didn't play a nutjob.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

When I was a young mother, I saw another woman at a mall who was pushing her triplets in a stroller. I watched her, thinking that I couldn't imagine how difficult it would be to tend to three children all at once. I was having enough trouble tending to the needs of one. My second one came along four years later, and it was a struggle to meet each of their needs - because kids don't get easier as they get older, the things that get difficult change. Three is a tricky number in any human dynamic, someone is always left out at some point.

Even when we parent a single child, we make mistakes - which may or may not be held against us by our children. Our own parents made mistakes, and some of us are still clearly dealing with those (I know I am). We're all human, we don't have scripts, training manuals, or users guides, and we don't know how it's all going to come out in the end.

Kevin had reasons to feel the way he felt, and for that matter, as annoying as I find Kate (even though I struggle with similar issues), so did she. But to be fair to Rebecca and Jack, it is beyond difficult to give everyone the attention they need when doing everything you have to do to make sure they're clothed, fed, and healthy, and on top of that, being a spouse. 

So while I find the dynamics very interesting, and I'm not particularly fond of Rebecca (and frankly, less so of Jack), I can't fault them for being human. And I can't fault the kids for having issues. That's life. It is a messy business. 

Which is, of course, why this show is so fun to watch. None of us want to watch Leave it to Beaver, or Father Knows Best, right?

Oh yes, no pearls! No running to get hubby his slippers, lol     I had twins and an older singleton. It was easy and hard, depending on the day and my son was either very friendly with both or sometimes just one, usually because they bonded over something. One daughter will bring up how the older kid got this or that but I told her, I did what I thought was best at the time, being "even" isn't always the best thing but you try.

Seeing only what the writers want you to see, you have to surmise the rest, but it's obvious with Kate, she was very spoiled by her dad. What I would love the writers to do, is show us something from her youth where she is with Rebecca and having fun, those ,moments Kevin was talking about that were vague. The manicure afternoon with Rebecca got side railed by Jack's dad dying, but did they ever sew together or go to hair salon or the movies? I can see clothes shopping not being fun or eating out, but there are lots of other things.  Since there was nothing to do at the cabin, to say she concentrated on food wasn't really fair. She wasn't an outdoor kind of girl and didn't seem to want to read like Mom and Randall. I didn't have a weight issue but thought about food a lot as a kid, that in itself is not a crime, but do fun things to exercise, not football, but something she likes.  That conversation with Jack was odd...let's play ball, when  he was with Kevin, she is out of breath, hates it and he tells her she's putting on weight. What? How about play with Kevin and then go for a walk looking for whatever with Kate? It seemed very awkward. Then he makes it worse taking her out for ice cream.

Edited January 14, 2018 by debraran