S03.E05: I Never Want To See Josh Again

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Rebecca goes home to Westchester where she draws closer to her mother and tries to find a way forward. The friends and co-workers she left behind, including Paula and Nathaniel, struggle with their emotions regarding her departure.

Promo:

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[gatopretoNYC]

I'm so looking forward to this. I love Tovah on this show.

[nightowl1989]

Wow. I'm stunned.

[Spartan Girl]

That went even darker than last week. I'm glad they posted that suicide prevention message at the end, but still...

Poor Rebecca. Poor, poor Rebecca. She thought she was finally connecting with her mom, only to find out she was doping her and trying to commit her. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I get that Naomi was concerned and trying to do what she thought was right, but the way she did it was wrong on so many levels. Part of the reason why Rebecca latches herself onto douchebags like Robert and Josh is she's trying to find the unconditional love and acceptance she never got from either of her parents.

And maybe that's why for all her faults, I still empathize with Rebecca. She might be selfish, manipulative, and nuts, but she isn't evil. She's just...lost.

On a lighter note, I loved Paula finally bonding with her boys.

Cornelia is probably the smartest person on this show. Everyone in that office really is crazy. Run far, run fast, and file those HR complaints!

[msani19]

As much as Rebecca has been frustrating me this season, my heart ached for her when she realized that she and her mom weren't connecting after all. I was also really sad for her Mom when she checked Rebecca's laptop and saw the suicide websites, I know she really wished it was porn. But she expressed a genuine love and concern and fear for her daughter in that brief scene. Although her approach left a lot to be desired, her heart was in the right place. There's a lot of healing to do for the Bunch family.

I saw that last scene coming as soon as the pill bottle appeared. Oh, Rebecca....

The funny: Cornelia's total WTF face the whole time she was dealing with those crazy people.

[AmandaPanda]

As soon as Naomi gave Rebecca that milkshake, I knew she was putting medicine in there. I'm so glad that thread is finally coming back. I've been waiting to see the crash that comes with her going cold turkey off her meds back in season 1. I fully believe that Rebecca is bipolar. We saw her in a deep depression at the beginning of the series. As she was coming out of that, she made a rash decision and moved to West Covina. The first 2 1/2 seasons have all been her on a giant manic high and she's coming down from it now. She was feeling great back in season 1, so she decided she didn't need her meds anymore and threw them all out. This is where the series turns, she crashes, and the remainder of the series is her trying to be okay. I don't think Rebecca is meant to be endgame with anyone. I think the endgame is supposed to be Rebecca being happy with herself and getting the help she actually needs.

That last scene completely wrecked me. As soon as the flight attendant suggested merlot, I knew Rebecca was going to overdose. That didn't make it hurt any less to see it play out. This episode was so raw and uncomfortable, but in all the best ways. I want to go back and rewatch it, but I need the wounds to heal a little bit first. 

[crashdown]

This show is so fucking brave--it goes where the characters dictate that it should go, regardless of whether it's nominally a "comedy" or a "drama."  I've never seen anything quite like this in a long lifetime of television. Rachel Bloom is amazing.

[SeanC]

The melody of "Maybe She's Not Such A Heinous Bitch After All" was constantly reminding me of an actual song, but I can't put my finger on which one.

Rebecca's plot has taken a pretty sharp turn into letting Bloom do fairly straight dramatic acting, which, unsurprisingly, she's also really good at.

Ironically given how Rebecca reacts to her mother this episode, this was the first time in the series that I thought her mother was actually sympathetic and reasonably well-intentioned.

[butterbody]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The melody of "Maybe She's Not Such A Heinous Bitch After All" was constantly reminding me of an actual song, but I can't put my finger on which one.

 

I thought so, too! I think it was "Be my baby" by Bea Miller

[dungeonwriter]

I know it's wrong but I honestly felt Naomi was a good mother here, even if she was wrong. Rebecca is suicidal and Naomi was desperate. Rebecca is not rational and therefore, she needed to restore her to some stability but she had intended to get her treatment. 

The Help sign turning to Hope made me cry, it was a beautiful moment. 

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The melody of "Maybe She's Not Such A Heinous Bitch After All" was constantly reminding me of an actual song, but I can't put my finger on which one.

The doo-wop drums at the beginning made me think we'd get a reprise of "Santa Ana Winds." Otherwise, "Be My Baby" springs to mind for me, too.

The sight of Paula and her husband and sons playing that fairy game was hilarious. 

Ugh, Rebecca's plane ride reminded me of one I took. I'd gone home for the weekend because I was so stressed at work, and it was so nice to be away I sobbed the whole way back.

2 minutes ago, dungeonwriter said:

I know it's wrong but I honestly felt Naomi was a good mother here, even if she was wrong. Rebecca is suicidal and Naomi was desperate. Rebecca is not rational and therefore, she needed to restore her to some stability but she had intended to get her treatment. 

Same here. Naomi wasn't drugging Rebecca for kicks or out of spite.

[bilgistic]

I cried at the end when Rebecca was taking the pills. The writing and acting in the last few minutes was very well done and not mauldlin or corny. It felt very authentic and hit me hard.

[dungeonwriter]

The hardest part was how accurately Rebecca portrayed depression. "I'm tired." And the wish to just sleep forever. 

I am glad Rebecca finally finally finally finally finally hit rock bottom. It's done. She's finally landed hard, but she is finally getting help and can start rebuilding her life. 

I love Nathaniel. I know I should be Team Rebecca, but I think he's such a sweetie, his alligator made me so happy. And him crying. 

[possibilities]

Naomi didn't JUST drug Rebecca, she also spent time with her and acted fun and nice. And Rebecca DID respond to that, not only to the drugs. I don't think we're meant to think Naomi was exactly right, but I also don't think we were meant to think she was evil, in this episode.

One thing about Rebecca is, she is relentless. Her dysfunctions feed on that, but it's also what made her notify the flight attendent of her situation, instead of just surrendering to death. She wants care and attention more than she wants to die. She could have gone off by herself to overdose in private , but she didn't. And she was headed back to California-- even though all her stuff was in storage in NY. So at some level, she was still hoping to reconnect.

Like her mother, she doesn't know what to do, but she keeps trying.

I liked Cornelia. Everyone in that office was driving me crazy, and I tend to enjoy people who are just trying to do their fucking job and are doing it well. Competence! Efficiency! No drama! It makes sense that Rebecca fit in there, and also it makes sense that they are a struggling company. It doesn't really make sense that Cornelia was out of work and couldn't get anything better, but maybe she has some other kind of dysfunction that just didn't fit in with the Whitefeather firm's particular style of dysfunction. I mean, a yo yo shop? Not the kind of dream I thought she might have. So clearly she has another side to her beyond the competence and focus on lawyerly tasks.

I love Paula's family. Why is she so bored by them?

I had forgotten how boundariless and needy Darryl is. Ugh.

[bilgistic]

I thought Nathaniel said Cornelia was transferring to their office from the downtown office?

Edited November 11, 2017 by bilgistic

[Zoe]

^ Yeah, Cornelia was just a transfer.

And she has a beautiful voice! I want to talk about how great her song (and Rebecca's) was, but that ending sucked out all the joy :(

[rwlevin]

Having known people who committed suicide and having suffered severe depression and having been suicidal at one point, this episode hit way too close to home. The emotions were so real and raw. I cried at the end.

[NUguy514]

Wow.  That...was intense.

As others have stated, Naomi's heart was completely in the right place, and she was showing Rebecca genuine affection and love; it's just too bad her actions were a bit misguided.

The two songs were fantastic, and I loved competent, no-drama Cornelia.

Tovah Feldshuh is a treasure, but Rachel Bloom just keeps getting better.  That ending was such a gut-punch.  Devastating.

[LeeLeePanda]

6 minutes ago, rwlevin said:

Having known people who committed suicide and having suffered severe depression and having been suicidal at one point, this episode hit way too close to home. The emotions were so real and raw. I cried at the end.

I agree. I’ve dealt with severe depression and anxiety my whole life.  Rebecca lines about being too tired and wanting to sleep forever hit me so hard. I’ve been there. It was too real. 

[dingochick]

Amazing episode. Most folks here have already said what I was thinking/feeling. Heart wrenching...

On a lighter note, I loved Darryl’s “can’t even couldn’t” or whatever it was. Also I cannot stand Millennial Girl. Yeesh. 

[DianeDobbler]

I enjoyed Paula and her family. I know Heather and Valencia said Paula is an inattentive Mom, but her kid are the same way. They all have a snarky sense of humor about family stuff, look out for their own self-interest, and roll their eyes about family bonding, but also got into the boardgame. I think Paula's doing fine. I like the family stuff of the past two episodes not because she's spending time with them and being better, but because her family gets her. Like her, they're grudging when they have to step up, but when they do, they manage to have a good time.

Caveat - Rebecca's mom's house is a substantial size, and I imagine at least three bedrooms. Why was Rebecca sleeping on a pull out sofa?

Love Audra Levine. 

[kitkat343]

Quote

I enjoyed Paula and her family. I know Heather and Valencia said Paula is an inattentive Mom, but her kid are the same way. They all have a snarky sense of humor about family stuff, look out for their own self-interest, and roll their eyes about family bonding, but also got into the boardgame.

They're teenage boys.  No teenage boy wants to be smothered by his mother at this age.  They won me over during the abortion episode when one of them said, "I'll get the door mom because you had an abortion!"  They're funny, and care about her enough to wear pixie wings and play a girlie game for her.  They must really love her, which means she must be in some way a good mother (in between the stalking, inserting trackers into people, faking crimes and god knows what else she's done).

Edited November 11, 2017 by kitkat343

[NUguy514]

56 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

Caveat - Rebecca's mom's house is a substantial size, and I imagine at least three bedrooms. Why was Rebecca sleeping on a pull out sofa?

Yeah, I also found it a liiiiiiittle unbelievable that in Naomi's Scarsdale mansion, there wasn't a second bedroom Rebecca could sleep in.  Maybe, like, for instance, her childhood bedroom.

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Yeah, I also found it a liiiiiiittle unbelievable that in Naomi's Scarsdale mansion, there wasn't a second bedroom Rebecca could sleep in.  Maybe, like, for instance, her childhood bedroom.

It was a little unbelievable, but I can also see Naomi only getting a one bedroom condo to discourage Rebecca from not living her life as Naomi sees fit. Naomi has definite ideas about what Rebecca's life should be like. I don't think a comfortable or extended stay in Naomi's place are anywhere in those ideas.

[Spartan Girl]

For the record, I don't think Naomi is evil. But when she started softening her approach to Rebecca, I honestly thought her finding the suicide website made her realize that her overbearing demeanor/tough love was hurting Rebecca even more. Like Rebecca, I thought she genuinely was trying to connect with her daughter without any ulterior motive. So when Rebecca found the pills, I understood how betrayed and horrified she felt.

I did like, however, Rebecca leaving behind the note that said, "I know you're trying." Naomi is far from perfect but at least she's there, unlike her garbage father.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I want to play Fancy Fairy Funland! Tiaras, wings, and wands will be required. I loved that despite the fact that Scott had to bribe the kids to spend time with their mom (and I agree that teenagers have to be dragged kicking and screaming to spend any time with their parents), they ended up totally getting into the game. I'm the pixie princess, bitches!

Cornelia (Connie from Enlightented!) was awesome. A smart professional person who just wants to go to work to do her job, not play therapist to everyone else in the office. Jim was cracking me up all episode. Loved that Paula complimented him on being ripped at the pool.

When Paula initially spotted Nathaniel at the pool, I thought, don't be stupid by taking off your hat! Keep it on so it hides your face! But of course Paula being the kind person that she is stomped over there to set everyone straight, thus blowing her sick day excuse. I'm glad that Nathaniel let that slide. I think that old Nathaniel would have busted her for it but sad Nathaniel understands.

Rebecca's portrayal of depression was very realistic. I really felt for both her and Naomi. Rebecca is depressed but that is exacerbated by her guilt over what she said to her friends. She is torturing herself by remembering what she said to them and then that reminds her that she has no friends in her life. She has always wanted her parents' love and approval so of course she eagerly accepted Naomi's kindness and attention when it was offered.

While I understand that giving someone drugs without their consent is unethical, I understand why Naomi did it. She was terrified that Rebecca was going to kill herself. She has seen her self-destruct before and she is ill-equipped to handle the situation. She knew that the sad depressed Rebecca lying in bed all day wasn't going to voluntarily check herself in anywhere. I think she truly meant what she told Rebecca, that she gave her the anxiety meds so that she would be in a state of mind where Naomi could talk to her.

The sad thing is that if she had given Rebecca as much affection and positive attention before now, she might not have as many of the issues that she has. I'm not saying that Naomi caused Rebecca's depression by any means, but Rebecca's need for love and attention stems from the shitty way that her parents treated her and that's partially what caused her relationship with her professor which is what led to her first breakdown.

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

The melody of "Maybe She's Not Such A Heinous Bitch After All" was constantly reminding me of an actual song, but I can't put my finger on which one.

 

9 hours ago, butterbody said:

I thought so, too! I think it was "Be my baby" by Bea Miller

Ha, no, that's Be My Baby by the Ronettes who recorded that song 54 years before that shitty Dirty Dancing remake earlier this year. It was used in the opening credits of the original movie in 1987 which is why it was included in the remake soundtrack. The hair, costumes, and some of the choreography used for "Heinous Bitch" were obviously inspired by the Ronettes.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

Maybe She's Not Such a Heinous Bitch After All:

I Feel Like This Isn't About Me:

Edited November 13, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[DianeDobbler]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

It was a little unbelievable, but I can also see Naomi only getting a one bedroom condo to discourage Rebecca from not living her life as Naomi sees fit. Naomi has definite ideas about what Rebecca's life should be like. I don't think a comfortable or extended stay in Naomi's place are anywhere in those ideas.

But we saw the exterior of Naomi's home in several establishing shots. It's a very large Tudor-style home, at least two stories. It's clearly the family home and there is no way that's a one bedroom, or even two. It's at least three. 

Bloom's work on the plane was excellent. I'm glad the episode ended with her reaching out, instead of her being found unconscious in her seat. I, also, enjoyed that Paula went over and yelled at her co-workers instead of ducking and hiding. All the writing fo Paula, AND her family, skirts the expected tropes.

The show is a musical dramedy, but the biggest trope it plays with is the office environment where everyone is just like family. I don't mind. :)

[Rinaldo]

51 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

But we saw the exterior of Naomi's home in several establishing shots. It's a very large Tudor-style home, at least two stories. It's clearly the family home and there is no way that's a one bedroom, or even two. It's at least three. 

Agreed, but the way I resolve it for myself is that Naomi, being a "big" personality, fills up the whole house with her stuff. The second bedroom is her home office, the third bedroom is... I don't know, probably not a sewing room but an exercise room or whatever activities she does. I've known situations where only one or two people own a house and all three bedrooms are filled with their stuff.

Acknowledging (and agreeing with) all the justified tributes to the show's handling of serious issues, I'm going to be shallow and mention my appreciation of (A) the singing-dancing aquatic bartender, and (B) Jim showing up in a most abbreviated bathing suit. I second Paula's admiration of him.

[mrsbagnet]

When I saw Rebecca on the couch, I just figured she never made it upstairs, as though she came in and plopped on the couch and never left it. Plus, in some ways, it's easier to have a sick person downstairs because it closer to the kitchen, bathroom, front door, etc. The couch could have been a device to show how severe her depression was.

I loved that Audra Levine was the person to point out that something was up. I wonder if she and Rebecca could have been real friends if they hadn't been forced to compete by their parents or other circumstances.

Edited November 12, 2017 by mrsbagnet

[DianeDobbler]

I consider Audra and Rebecca to be frenemies, as even the JAP Battle rap described it. Rebecca is the more talented. Audra, though, kept her shit together, and is living the life Rebecca's mother was aiming her towards.  They have so much in common in terms of backgrounds, knowing each other's frames of reference, that Audra serves a purpose in Rebecca's life, and vice versa, nobody else does. Although Rebecca described Audra's husband as "Small dick, rotten lay", he seemed nice enough bonding with Josh at the wedding they all attended, although he may have winced when Josh said something about penis size being the thing that matters. Anyway, I'm glad Audra's victories aren't presented as purely pyrrhic.  Also at the same wedding, Audra and Rebecca acknowledged that their sniping wasn't as fun as it used to be. It's just fun for ME to see another super sharp - in the same WAY - woman talk with Rebecca, because there's a great shorthand.

Good points about the house - both that Rebecca's mother would take over all the bedrooms for her own purposes - exercise room, maybe expanded closet or office, AND that Rebecca would just settle in on the couch because all she's doing is eating and sleeping, and it's closer to the kitchen.

Edited November 11, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Snarklepuss]

I too wondered about the pull-out couch vs. a bedroom, and I knew I wouldn't be the only one wondering that.  And yes to the exterior shot of a quintessential Scarsdale neo-Tudor home.

What I also wonder is why Nathaniel didn't just tell the others to back off Cornelia as they were clearly going OTT in his presence.  I guess he was too far gone in self absorption over losing Rebecca to notice or care.  Plus he has his own boundary issues with personal stuff at work so I guess I get it.

I'm another one that feels her mother's love was genuine if misguided.  Putting myself in her position, fearing that suicide was a real danger she had to act fast to prevent it, and I think she felt this was the most loving way to do it, without Rebecca's knowledge, otherwise she might actually end up upsetting her more.  Unfortunately the plan backfired.

Minor nitpick here but Tovah Feldshuh is much closer to 65 than 59 or 60.  I guess I shouldn't complain because if it makes younger people think that's what 59 looks like then they'll think I'm much younger than I am!  No offense to Tovah, I think she is a very attractive woman and a fantastic actress.  The genuiness of her love for Rebecca really came through and brought a tear to my eye.  She reminds me a lot of my best friend's mother who was very similar.   Their relationship feels very true to life in Jewish culture.  Having grown up around that culture I can say that from first hand experience.  My best friend also turned out to be manic depressive and at one time suicidal.  I agree with the poster above that said Rebecca has been in an extended "manic" phase ever since moving to W. Covina, probably Josh induced, which is one reason she could just "walk away" from her meds and not feel any real consequences until the inevitable crash.  While I think the way the show is handling this new serious turn is commendable and atypical for a TV show like this, it still feels uncomfortable to me in some ways.

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Like [Paula, her family is] grudging when they have to step up, but when they do, they manage to have a good time.

Yeah, I loved that. It might take them a while to get there, but when they are, they're all in.

1 hour ago, mrsbagnet said:

When I saw Rebecca on the couch, I just figured she never made it upstairs, as though she came it and plopped on the couch and never left it. Plus, in some ways, it's easier to have a sick person downstairs because it closer to the kitchen, bathroom, front door, etc. The couch could have been a device to show how severe her depression was.

Same here. And the TV is downstairs.

31 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

I consider Audra and Rebecca to be frenemies, as even the JAP Battle rap described it. Rebecca is the more talented. Audra, though, kept her shit together, and is living the life Rebecca's mother was aiming her towards. 

They're definitely flip sides of the same coin.

[crashdown]

35 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

I consider Audra and Rebecca to be frenemies, as even the JAP Battle rap described it. Rebecca is the more talented. Audra, though, kept her shit together, and is living the life Rebecca's mother was aiming her towards.  They have so much in common in terms of backgrounds, knowing each other's frames of reference, that Audra serves a purpose in Rebecca's life, and vice versa, nobody else does. Although Rebecca described Audra's husband as "Small dick, rotten lay", he seemed nice enough bonding with Josh at the wedding they all attended, although he may have winced when Josh said something about penis size being the thing that matters. Anyway, I'm glad Audra's victories aren't presented as purely pyrrhic.  Also at the same wedding, Audra and Rebecca acknowledged that their sniping wasn't as fun as it used to be. It's just fun for ME to see another super sharp - in the same WAY - woman talk with Rebecca, because there's a great shorthand.

I'm all in for some Rebecca/Audra femslash fanfic!

[alrightokay]

I agree with everyone's points about Naomi's good intentions/problematic execution, how delightful Paula's family was in cheering her up, and Rachel Bloom's powerful acting in the final scene.  I also agree that Audra Levine really "gets" Rebecca, maybe more than anyone else, because they've faced so many of the same influences and pressures.  My favorite parts, though, were the scenes with Cornelia; bringing her in was a brilliant way to show how Rebecca's absence affected the rest of the office.  I was worried that when Paula saw Nathaniel and Cornelia in bathing suits at the pool that she would jump to the wrong conclusion that they were having an affair, but I shouldn't have worried!  I loved how Darryl, Maya, and Jim all showed up in their bathing suits to bring the office back together and confront their feelings (feels, I mean! :) ).

This show is so good at making minor characters feel vivid and fully fleshed out.  We had barely heard from Jim before, but in just a few scenes, we could imagine a whole history where he and Rebecca had their "moments" buying bowling shirts and comparing horoscopes.  Last week, I grumbled that we hadn't seen enough of Rebecca being a good friend to others to warrant their sticking by her after her scathing rant.  But this episode filled in all that backstory: off camera, she's listened to Darryl, been a mentor to Maya, been a "daughter" to Paula, and made Jim feel good about himself (I guess Mrs. Hernandez is the only one left out, and maybe that's why she's so grumpy!).  What Cornelia said about going to HR to file complaints gave me an idea: maybe Rebecca should work in Human Resources; that's where her listening, planning, and problem-solving skills could all make a difference.  And not just in making sure labor laws are followed and employees are treated fairly, but in doing the little things that improve office culture and make colleagues feel valued.  Because what this episode revealed--that she hasn't realized yet--is that Rebecca is a resource who helps others feel human.  

Other great moments--all related to Cornelia, because I love her:

How gingerly she patted Nathaniel's shoulder when he started crying.

How she abruptly stopped heating up her burrito and said it was okay that it was still frozen, because she's "teething."  (And then she immediately dumped the burrito in the trash.)

Her song!  So funny, with the smiley bartender dancing and singing along.

 

Finally, the title of the next episode gives me hope that Rebecca will finally realize that Josh isn't the source of her problems and that she needs to (and can) "Move on, Dude."

[SomeTameGazelle]

13 hours ago, dungeonwriter said:

I love Nathaniel. I know I should be Team Rebecca, but I think he's such a sweetie, his alligator made me so happy. And him crying.

For me his emotional attachment to Rebecca was too easy to interpret as appealing when it should have been clearly dysfunctional and inappropriate. They don't have anything approaching a close relationship (let alone stable or healthy) and his moping over her is largely a fantasy he has created. Although I enjoyed Cornelia and her song I'm wondering if I would rather have seen Nathaniel's story in the context of his terrible relationship with his father making him emotionally needy -- which would have been a nice parallel with Rebecca's relationship with Naomi and frankly would probably have shown that Naomi for all her faults does in fact love Rebecca and was trying to help her -- both when she was nagging her about making decisions and getting a job and when she was secretly dosing her with meds and planning to commit her. (BTW, were we supposed to be seeing one day or multiple days? Because the pill bottle seemed to indicate that the dose was once per day, but Naomi made Rebecca at least 3 shakes.)

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

Naomi didn't JUST drug Rebecca, she also spent time with her and acted fun and nice. And Rebecca DID respond to that, not only to the drugs. I don't think we're meant to think Naomi was exactly right, but I also don't think we were meant to think she was evil, in this episode.

I agree with this. I don't think we are supposed to take Rebecca's view of Naomi (or even Audra Levine's) as unbiased. I did notice though and thought it was an odd choice that we didn't see Naomi's face when she told Rebecca she did love her during the big confrontation scene. Was that because Rebecca's reaction was supposed to be more important, or was it a late change they made to the dialogue that they had to do in editing so we couldn't see Naomi's lips move?

[Snarklepuss]

One more thing - At first when Paula mentioned the game that her family never wanted to play with her, I thought "bad on them", but then when I saw them sitting there with the fairy wings on I thought "I should have known"!!  LOL

[MrsR]

In the episode where Rebecca and Josh go to Scarsdale to attend the bar mitzvah, Rebecca explains they are sleeping on the couch because her mother uses the old bedroom to hoard back issues of Marie Claire magazines.

 

You guys are slipping!!!

[catrox14]

Wow. I did not expect that ending.

[Zoe]

1 hour ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I agree with this. I don't think we are supposed to take Rebecca's view of Naomi (or even Audra Levine's) as unbiased. I did notice though and thought it was an odd choice that we didn't see Naomi's face when she told Rebecca she did love her during the big confrontation scene. Was that because Rebecca's reaction was supposed to be more important, or was it a late change they made to the dialogue that they had to do in editing so we couldn't see Naomi's lips move?

It sounded off to me, must have needed ADR.

[possibilities]

15 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I thought Nathaniel said Cornelia was transferring to their office from the downtown office?

Thanks-- I missed that detail.

[Lebanna]

This show finally went where I've been willing it to go since the first episode. I've said before, this show always seemed to me to be intelligent enough to illustrate that being 'crazy' is never that fun or funny for the person involved. Maybe for other people around them, but even then only ever for a little while before it gets painful and boring and heartbreaking all at once. 'Crazy' hurts everyone.

There's this trope in society that tries to sell us on the idea that mental illness is cute on some level, but it just isn't. Here, we got to see Rebecca, beloved and talented and wonderful in so many ways, try to turn herself into a corpse. Because to her sick brain, that made perfect sense.

This show is fundamentally about a girl suffering from an illness, as if it were about cancer or tuberculosis. Illnesses, especially serious ones, because of all the indignity that comes with them, are often really funny. Until they end up with incapacity and death. This is a battle, between what Rebecca's illness is trying to convince her to want, and what she truly wants as a person. I think they did really well in explaining it. With her mother's misguided help, she was trying to fight death all episode long, but it crept up on her the moment she took her eye off the ball. And next week, I expect we'll see some of the reactions of those who love her, to this illness trying to kill their friend. The blame and anger and betrayal and confusion towards the person they love. Because separating the illness from the person is so hard.

This show is so brave.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Lebanna

[kieyra]

3 hours ago, Zoe said:

It sounded off to me, must have needed ADR.

I noticed the ADR, and it made me think they added the line after the fact because it made the mother seem too heartless without it. "I do love you" is clearly spliced in by itself. 

[Slovenly Muse]

Wow, this was a powerful one. I did some good crying afterward.

While Naomi was wrong to give Rebecca medication without her consent, I actually think she was justified, and that not doing it would have been even worse. She may have saved Rebecca's life. David Foster Wallace wrote that suicide is like trying to jump out the top floor window of a skyscraper: Every instinct you possess will fight and rebel and keep you from doing it... but what happens when that skyscraper is on fire? The same animal instincts that would otherwise save your life will propel you right out that window. Rational thinking is impossible, and promises you made that you'd never jump become meaningless... Naomi saw that Rebecca's skyscraper was on fire, and she used every tool at her disposal to try and put that fire out. She gave Rebecca what she needed: Medication and a loving, supportive environment, to demonstrate that regardless of their differences, she'd always be there when Rebecca was in dire need, and to help bolster Rebecca until she was able to make rational choices about what she needed. And come on, NOBODY would play Twister for someone they didn't really love.

As for the couch, I had no issue with it. I'm glad it makes sense in continuity, though! Even if there were a room available, I agree that it makes sense for Rebecca to make it as far as the couch, and then give up. And from Naomi's point of view (this is not rational, but emotional), once she found that website I can understand her not encouraging Rebecca to move to a bedroom. There's something inherently unsettling about putting a possibly-suicidal person behind a door they can close and lock. If she wasn't sure what Rebecca might do, then at least in the living room, Naomi could keep an eye on her, check on her at any time. It kind of fits her helicopter-parent style.

[Glory]

Wow. This episode was a... an episode. 

I really wanted to punch Darryl, Maya and the other dude. They were just so terrible to that poor woman. But her song was adorable and I loved the fruit hat. Too funny. 

Rebecca's depression was so well done. It was soooo hard to watch at times, but it was so wonderfully acted by Rachel. 

I thought Naomi was doing the only thing she could think to do to help her daughter. What else is there to do really? She perhaps could have called 911 and had Rebecca involuntarily committed but how long does that last? I don't think it's for more than a day or so. People don't always know how to handle these things. Frankly, considering Rebecca's past it's amazing Naomi even let her move to California in the first place. That must have been hard for her. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I know it's wrong but I honestly felt Naomi was a good mother here, even if she was wrong. Rebecca is suicidal and Naomi was desperate. Rebecca is not rational and therefore, she needed to restore her to some stability but she had intended to get her treatment. 

I agree.  Naomi was desperate and did a foolish thing.  It made a bad situation worse, but I don't believe for a moment Naomi did what she did out of anything but love.   I can't even imagine what I would do if I thought my kid was suicidal, particularly with Rebecca's history.  It would be a very helpless feeling for a parent.   

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, no blame from me either, this is one situation where I'm actually onboard with drugging someone without their consent. I think it speaks well of Naomi that the instant she saw that suicide website she leaped into the kid gloves approach and doing whatever she needed to back Rebecca off that ledge.

I am wondering though at anti-anxiety meds having such a positive effect on Rebecca's depression. I know, and have personally experienced, the two being intertwined, but I'd think that you'd want to use an anti-depressant—something with a calming effect doesn't seem like it would perk a person up when their depression is at the flat affect suicidal ideation stage. (In my own case anxiety meds proved worthless, but when I got switched to a working anti-depressant the anxiety improved with my general mood.)

Edited November 12, 2017 by Bruinsfan

[EyewatchTV211]

Maybe that particular anxiety med was an SSRI, which can treat both? I forget if it said the medication name on the bottle, though they probably wouldn't show a specific one on TV. The other problem, though, is anti-anxiety and antidepressant medications take awhile to have any effect since they have to build up in your system. They don't work like ADHD meds where you can notice the effect right away. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by VMepicgrl

[Snarklepuss]

57 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I am wondering though at anti-anxiety meds having such a positive effect on Rebecca's depression. I know, and have personally experienced, the two being intertwined, but I'd think that you'd want to use an anti-depressant—something with a calming effect doesn't seem like it would perk a person up when their depression is at the flat affect suicidal ideation stage. (In my own case anxiety meds proved worthless, but when I got switched to a working anti-depressant the anxiety improved with my general mood.)

Usually anti-anxiety drugs are prescribed with anti-depressants for someone who's depressed, otherwise over the long-term they might end up only making the depression worse.  Although for the short-term, taking an anti-anxiety drug alone might actually help if one of her major symptoms is anxiety and the anxiety is what's causing the depression.  If that's the case the drug may at least calm her down and thus decrease some of the depressive symptoms so she won't want to kill herself.

[holly4755]

anti anxiety meds put me to sleep. fell asleep driving once, hit a median. I had an crazed constantly panicked boss who wanted me in every meeting he was so I could be a sounding board to him at the same time kept me piled up with work    anyway, not all pills work the same way for different people.   

As naomi said though she just wanted to be able to talk to Rebecca and it does take a while for those meds to take effect. But if she had brought in a doctor, Rebecca would have fled.