S02.E05: Brothers

[ShadowFacts]

29 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Kate really has become downright unlikeable. She was a real asshole to Madison in the meeting and her behavior is totally unacceptable for any 12-step group or support groups of any kind.  The leader of that group should have stepped in (or other members should have said something). It's called a support group for a reason. Kate is so resentful of thin, pretty women that she acts horribly toward them.  You can never know what pain someone else is going through just by looking at them. I have come to dislike adult Kate immensely and don't care about her pregnancy. Toby is a tool and the scene at the coffee shop was ridiculous.

Randall is so awkward with Deja, and while I feel like that's to be expected, I also feel very little connectivity between the Randall of S1 and the Randall of S2. It's almost like he's a different character. I don't care for this arc at all. And I can't understand why he would smack Deja's hand instead of using his words to advise her not to eat the shrimp tail. WTF? That felt unnatural and convoluted as a plot device to get them to the ladies' room scene, which I also didn't care for. I'm not sure Deja would have confided in Randall at that point. I enjoyed her crush on Kevin, though.

Young Randall's notes to himself about engaging with Kevin were heartbreaking. "When Kevin thinks you're being annoying, try talking about Karate Kid."  "Don't ask to use Kevin's Gameboy." Poor, sweet Randall. I was glad that Young Kevin had enough heart to understand those notes and to try harder with Randall. It's nice to see them together as adults even if they don't seem to have that same connection as in S1. 

As for Kevin, with all the celebrity ODs where multiple docs were filling prescriptions for them, I didn't think it'd be this tough for him to get more Vicodin. Why didn't he stock up before he left LA? All he had to do was go see more than one doctor. I suppose now he will turn to street drugs when alcohol isn't cutting it for self-medication. I don't like this storyline, either.

I didn't care about Jack's father dying. Jack's brother is an interesting twist. I'm pretty sure my dad told me that when he went for his physical to join the Marines, he memorized a few lines of the eye chart when he was waiting in the exam room, so he got around the whole glasses/eyesight thing.

Bottom line is I don't feel engaged by the (disjointed, IMO) S2 storylines as I did in S1, which is incredibly disappointing. 

I agree with everything you wrote.  Kate is very unlikable, so different from kid and teen Kate.  She had no right to rage at Madison, pregnant or not (and we've seen her be nasty toward her pre-pregnancy).  She also had no right to tell Toby not to speak about his dreams for fatherhood until the baby was born.  Then the reversal after the totally unrealistic hugging it out with Madison, and Toby's stupid hijinks in the cafe, none of it made me have any connection whatsoever with her character.  Randall's character, I agree, is unlike last season.  This thing of him being totally tone-deaf with Deja is being overdone.  He never had a dying father come into his life before, either, and he was pretty sensitive to William's needs and let things develop organically.  This all reeks of bad writing.  The one thing I didn't mind is the reveal that Jack had a brother, though little Nicky popping up in the back seat was corny. 

[Phoebe70]

Ok, I'm going to be the Debbie Downer today.  I did not like this episode.  The only part I liked was learning that Jack had a brother.  That's it.  I can't stand Kate anymore.  Yes, she has weight issues but that does not give her the right to go off on Madison.  That was uncalled for.  I don't care if you're pregnant with hormones, or uncomfortable with your weight. that doesn't give you the right to be a b*tch to others.

Toby continues to disgust me.  The knocking everything off the desk when Kate said she wanted to talk to him in his office.  And the restaurant scene...cringe-worthy.  It was so, so fake.  No restaurant owner is going to let him come into the restaurant and dump a bucket of water on his head like he's in Flashdance.  My coworker thought it was cute.  I thought it was ridiculous.  Maybe we're supposed to find Toby's excitement endearing, but I found it creepy.

Randall and Beth continue to be my favorites.  Deja can go back to where she came from.  I find myself bored with that storyline.

Kevin's drug addiction didn't seem realistic either.

[PRgal]

10 hours ago, mmecorday said:

Heck, Janet Jackson had a baby when she was 50. She was really serious about that waiting a while thing.

She could have used a donor (more likely) or used previously frozen eggs (less likely, since freezing technology wasn't as advanced, say, 15-20 years ago).  That's what I always tell people (I don't know well) who tell me that not everyone gets pregnant in their 20s and 30s.  I'm 38, so I'm "old" in that sense too.

On Madison:  Why is she in OA?  She's not even what some people in my circle would call "Asian fat" (i.e. anything above a size 6 or 8 - if you're under 5'6").  

On Jack's brother:  We don't know that he died in combat.  Knowing how the show is, it could be a whole host of things...

[SunnyBeBe]

Maybe, you just have to ignore details when buying into a show, but, this thing about Kevin's bum knee ruining his big chance again....well, when he was staying with Randall, he was out there RUNNING pretty well and keeping up with Randall, who is an avid runner.  No mention of a knee issue then.  This whole thing about the injury, addiction, etc.  this season is just too contrived for my taste.

As annoying as Toby can be, I really hope he considers the REAL Kate.  She's a real witch.  Do you really want to be with a person like her for the rest of your life?  Hmmm........Granted, being her size must produce a lot of depression and insecurity.  I just can't see her REALLY feeling good about herself, while being that size, even if she is pregnant. 

 

................................Just read my post above about Kate's size and think it sounds pretty mean. Sorry about that.  What I meant to say is that she appears to be miserable AND she admits to that.  But, she may have good cause to be miserable.  I don't like her character, but, it's not due to her size. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, Phoebe70 said:

Maybe we're supposed to find Toby's excitement endearing, but I found it creepy.

I found the excitement endearing.  I found the expression of it wrong.  If that makes sense.

 

13 minutes ago, PRgal said:

On Madison:  Why is she in OA?  She's not even what some people in my circle would call "Asian fat" (i.e. anything above a size 6 or 8 - if you're under 5'6").  

I think she has body dysmo

 

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

well, when he was staying with Randall, he was out there RUNNING pretty well and keeping up with Randall, who is an avid runner. 

That's true.  Jogging is about the worst exercise you can engage in for your knees.  If he's had any sort of knee trouble since he was 17, he shouldn't run.

 

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Do you really want to be with a person like her for the rest of your life?

Too late now. They're making a baby together.  They're linked for life.

[rebeccalj]

I think the show missed an opportunity with the Madison thing.  Sure, she's not overweight.  Who cares?  Maybe she needs the support of the support group in order to stay that way.  Losing weight or staying at a healthy weight are a lifestyle choice.  If someone attending an OA meeting, Weight Watchers, etc. even when they meet their "goal weight" helps them stay where they want to stay then why should they be criticized?  Weight Watchers allows people who have met their goal to come to meetings for free (or at least they used to).  It helps reinforce the tactics they learned which helped them lose the weight they wanted to lose in the first place.  

 

All that to say, while I can relate to the feeling of "why is she here?" as it relates to Madison, I also see Madison's side of things.  

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Cardie said:

Randall going into the restroom was one more example showing that Fogelman has no sense of it being necessary for men to respect women's boundaries. Because the women usually reward these transgressions by going all gaga or at least sharing something deeply private and emotional, the show conveys the message that this is totally OK.  It drives me crazy.

Exactly.  What if someone walks in?  I am definitely NOT comfortable with a guy in the bathroom UNLESS I know the bathroom is gender-neutral.  That bathroom is unlikely gender neutral (gender neutral bathrooms tend to be...er...dirtier - even in nice places (in my experience)).  And I would definitely NOT open up to a man like that if I were a foster child who has been abused by men.

I think that's why Deja cut off her braids.  She was hit with fashion magazines.  Fashion magazines = being pretty.  Braids = being pretty.

[SunnyBeBe]

It's as if this season we have a normally sensitive Randall who has no boundaries.  It's just odd, imo.   And not amusing. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, Kira53 said:

 The media doesn't tell women that the chances of getting pregnant at age 40 are very very small even with medical assistance. 

I know that people say this (and actually, I hear it in the media ALL THE TIME) but it's weird that in my immediate circle, off the top of my head I know 3 different people who's mothers were 40 when they were born, including my own father.  And..... he was born a whiiiiiiiiile ago.  LOL.  I doubt there was any medical intervention!  They lived on a farm. He was also the third kid in the family.  

Edited October 25, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am so happy that Toby got a chance to be happy about having a baby. Damn, Kate really can suck the joy out of any situation. 

Even as much as she annoyed me with that - I can understand it. My first pregnancy, which I was elated about, ended abruptly in a miscarriage. That's when I learned not to tell anyone before the 12 week mark. I ended up having to actually console a friend who was pregnant and envisioned us going through the process together. But I never would have asked my husband to shut off his joy.

 

11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Sigh, a ret-conned sibling, how original. Would someone with poor eyesight have even been allowed into combat?

Yes. My blind as a bat  father served in Korea, and my similarly eyesight challenged brother served two tours in Vietnam. 

11 hours ago, hovegeta said:

adult kevin was ok but sophie annoyed me, like how was it your night? kevin is the one being auctioned not you, also was surprised no one sent someone to look for kevin

Well, it was her event, and all of her friends and co-workers were there. Kevin was there because of her.

 

5 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

OA is a 12-step program.  No 12-step programs I'm familiar with allow the type of bitter, over-the-top, inventory-taking cross-talk Kate was flinging at Madison.  If I had been the secretary of that meeting, I would've kicked Kate out about five seconds into her rant.

I don't think they've ever given her program an official name. It seems to be some sort of generic weight loss group. But none of the official groups would ever permit that, I agree.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sign of Jack's ineffectiveness as a parent: repeatedly telling young Kevin not to play with his Gameboy BUT NOT TAKING IT AWAY - especially while he's being punished.. That's like parenting 101.

I don't blame Rebecca for trying to reach Jack while he was camping with the boys, but it always annoys me when significant others/friends think that everyone should reconcile with their parents. People make their choices. Some people choose to be shitty parents and that doesn't mean that they are owed a relationship with their kids. Children are not obligated to forgive their shitty parents for being shitty. I don't think Rebecca was pushing him, but it's just something I've seen a lot (both on tv and in real life). Jack already had closure with his dad so he didn't need to see him on his deathbed.

Agree on all counts. 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Also unrealistic:  Little Jack and Nicky sitting in the car that long. My brothers and I would never have minded that well. We would have been out and playing in the area. What is up with little Kevin not liking Randall?  We fought sometimes, but we played together all day, every day. We were each other's whole world with the parents just  overlords we took for granted, like the grown-ups in Peanuts.

They are the sons of an abusive drunk, so I think they probably would have minded the father given the consequences were severe.

[PRgal]

17 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know that people say this (and actually, I hear it in the media ALL THE TIME) but it's weird that in my immediate circle, off the top of my head I know 3 different people who's mothers were 40 when they were born, including my own father.  And..... he was born a whiiiiiiiiile ago.  LOL.  I doubt there was any medical intervention!  They lived on a farm. He was also the third kid in the family.  

Third kid is different from first kid, I think.  My great-grandmother had her first child around 30 (more than geriatric by standards back then - especially when a girl marries at, say, 16) and her final one in her mid-40s.  My grandmother was kid #3.  My grandmother was born in 1923.   

[Lady Calypso]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I found the excitement endearing.  I found the expression of it wrong.  If that makes sense.

Agreed with this. His excitement came off as very endearing and I like that he's excited about it. But yeah, the whole "going to a coffee shop, asking them to play your happy song and then disrupting everyone else's lives by dancing in their faces, climbing over counters, and pouring water on yourself" was not. It was one of those times where I thought "well this is a TV thing and not a realistic thing", especially since this show thrives off of being realistic. This act was simply not how any normal person in real life would act. 

I can understand why Kate asked Toby not to get excited around her. I wish she had worded it better, but I think she was simply talking about how she didn't want to get her hopes up, and if Toby got excited around her and hopeful, then she would get hopeful so if the baby didn't make it full term, it would be more devastating. So, I'd like to think that she was saying that she wanted Toby to be excited, just not around her. I'd like to think that she was still giving him the chance to be excited anywhere else. And I can totally understand Kate wanting that. 

34 minutes ago, rebeccalj said:

I think the show missed an opportunity with the Madison thing.  Sure, she's not overweight.  Who cares?  Maybe she needs the support of the support group in order to stay that way.  Losing weight or staying at a healthy weight are a lifestyle choice.  If someone attending an OA meeting, Weight Watchers, etc. even when they meet their "goal weight" helps them stay where they want to stay then why should they be criticized?  Weight Watchers allows people who have met their goal to come to meetings for free (or at least they used to).  It helps reinforce the tactics they learned which helped them lose the weight they wanted to lose in the first place.  

 

All that to say, while I can relate to the feeling of "why is she here?" as it relates to Madison, I also see Madison's side of things.  

I agree with this. If she needs a support group, she should absolutely stay. I think the issue becomes: should Madison look for a different support group that has more people going through what she's going through? Because as of the moment, she can't relate to the other people in her group in the way that she needs. She's the outsider, the one being judged, much in the same way that people judge others who are clearly overweight. It's an interesting dynamic for sure to see Madison's more silent struggle compared to everyone else in that group, but Madison is still struggling and Kate jumping to attack Madison while everyone stays silent goes to show that Madison is feeling how everyone in that group might potentially feel out in the real world. It's cruel to Madison, and although she has every right to stay and Kate should absolutely not be allowed to bitch at Madison constantly like that in a group all about support, there are other groups that WOULD be more fitting to Madison's needs and support. As of right now, she might not be getting the support that she needs and unfortunately for her, she may have to find another group that deals with body dysmorphia. 

However, for my own enjoyment, I really do like Madison and I have been hoping for the two to develop some sort of friendship, or frenemy relationship, as Kate really needs more friends. Plus, I LOVED how quickly Madison went from pissed to concerned to excited in about 30 seconds. She could actually be a better influence on Kate in terms of attitude and personality. 

Thinking about the Jack/Nicky and Kevin/Randall brothers parallel and why Jack is so insistent on Kevin/Randall having a good relationship, is it because him and his brother were close before his death, or is it because Jack ended up being the Kevin in the brothers situation and he feels guilty? I know we saw them getting along as children and they served together, but what if they had a big falling out around that time and Jack feels guilty for not getting the chance to be closer to his brother before his death? And he wants better for his boys? 

[Guest]

The Madison stuff made me laugh more than it should.

Randall should not have gone into the ladies' room. I'm glad there seems to be progress in his relationship with Deja, but come on.  Men should not go into women's bathrooms!  He had options.  He could have had Kevin yell at the door if he wanted to check on her. He could have asked Sophie to check on her.  He just barrels through any realistic boundaries so aggressively.

I really like Randall but I think they write him so unrealistically especially as a child.  At least this time they wrote young Kevin with some goodness, because usually we get KEVIN BAD, RANDALL GOOD.  I don't know a single sibling relationship where there isn't a lot more give/take.  

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

She also had no right to tell Toby not to speak about his dreams for fatherhood until the baby was born. 

This.  I don't think anyone mentioned it but she was so lucky to have a man so thrilled with the coming baby, I hated the way she shut him down as if his emotions for his child meant nothing compared to her feelings.

Glasses: My brother was drafted in 1967 and sent  right back home after his eye test.   I guess even the Army has a limit.  There are huge variations in how well people can see without their glasses.  The military doesn't want someone out there who would immediately become helpless the minute they lost their glasses in the jungle.  My eyes are like my bothers only not as bad, but if I knock my glasses off the nightstand my husband has to come and find them for me.

[Jax7917]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sign of Jack's ineffectiveness as a parent: repeatedly telling young Kevin not to play with his Gameboy BUT NOT TAKING IT AWAY - especially while he's being punished.. That's like parenting 101.

Randall, it shouldn't take a 12 year old who's been in and out of foster care to tell you that one of the places she stayed was abusive in order for you to figure out that you shouldn't grab her.

Even if Sophie didn't organize the whole gala, the fact that she is the one who said Kevin would be there to be auctioned off made her look bad when he didn't show up. Even if her only involvement in the whole event was saying that Kevin would be there and he disappeared, of course it would be embarrassing for her. I don't blame her for being upset that he got drunk and disappeared.

Poor Kate - Rebecca promised her a fun girls' weekend together and she got to sit in a nursing home.

I don't blame Rebecca for trying to reach Jack while he was camping with the boys, but it always annoys me when significant others/friends think that everyone should reconcile with their parents. People make their choices. Some people choose to be shitty parents and that doesn't mean that they are owed a relationship with their kids. Children are not obligated to forgive their shitty parents for being shitty. I don't think Rebecca was pushing him, but it's just something I've seen a lot (both on tv and in real life). Jack already had closure with his dad so he didn't need to see him on his deathbed.

A similar situation happened to an old friend of mine. She had no relationship with her father as a teenager and adult. When he was on his deathbed, he contacted her. She refused to see him. A lot of her friends encouraged her to go, citing reasons like "it's your last chance to reconcile with him," "you'll regret it if you don't go," "you can get closure," "give him one more chance," etc. Although their intentions were good, they were misguided (and came from people who had healthy relationships with their own parents so they couldn't possibly understand why my friend had no interest in seeing him). She didn't go see him. She didn't regret it.

My friend was 36 when she had a baby last year so we were both laughing and horrified that the doctor referred to it as a geriatric pregnancy. I know several women who had perfectly healthy babies in their 40s (and all without fertility treatments or any sort of outside assistance to get pregnant).

Yeah, but I feel like she should have at least let him know that his father was dying.. which she did. If she didn't, that would have been really messed up. At the end of the day it's that person's decision to see their dying mother/father if they want to or don't want to, but I do think it would be a good opportunity for closure. 

I cannot stand Kate. She is such a raging bitch to everyone about everything. She's always complaining about something or someone and everything is alwayssss about her.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Kira53 said:

 I totally disagree. It's not about Fogelman, it's about Randall. The episode shows us how little Randall just doesn't have patience for things to get better and for people to like him. He, the adult Randall knows better but he can't stop himself from doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

I don't think Randall went into the bathroom for the right reason.

He knew it was wrong because it was wrong - this was a traumatized child who had just run in fear from his physical touch, and went for refuge in the only place she felt safe. And he's going to intrude on it anyway, because he wants to get some validation now, damn it! Who cares about her needs?

If he'd actually thought about it from her perspective, he would have waited until she was ready to talk.

[Lion18]

10 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

No reputable pharmacy is going to fill an out of state Schedule 2 painkiller. That’s a major red flag. 

That said, I expect it to be a while before Kevin gets help/admits his problem because it’s still pretty easy to get ahold of these medications. 

I go to pain management for physical therapy, injections, procedures and yes sometimes medicine!

my Dr is telling me that only pain management doctors and dentists can prescribe pain pills. Primary care can not prescribe. Also a major chain pharmacy agreed to fill only one weeks worth at a time. So it is getting very difficult to get Pain meds here. It’s from the epidemic of abuse. Sad

[ElectricBoogaloo]

37 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know that people say this (and actually, I hear it in the media ALL THE TIME) but it's weird that in my immediate circle, off the top of my head I know 3 different people who's mothers were 40 when they were born, including my own father.  And..... he was born a whiiiiiiiiile ago.  LOL.  I doubt there was any medical intervention!  They lived on a farm. He was also the third kid in the family.  

A woman I know just had her first kid at the age of 41. She wasn't undergoing fertility treatments or anything either. In fact, it was a surprise pregnancy (she was using birth control). Her pregnancy was normal and her kid is perfectly healthy.

16 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Third kid is different from first kid, I think.  My great-grandmother had her first child around 30 (more than geriatric by standards back then - especially when a girl marries at, say, 16) and her final one in her mid-40s.  My grandmother was kid #3.  My grandmother was born in 1923.   

Although many women married younger in ye olden times, that just meant they had more time to have lots of kids. Elizabeth Schuyler (Alexander Hamilton's wife) got married a few weeks before her 24th birthday and then gave birth to eight children over the next twenty years (and had one known miscarriage). Her last child was born when she was 45. She had kids at pretty regular intervals (every two years at the beginning and then she slowed down to every four or five years).

To me, Kate getting pregnant at 37 isn't all that unusual. I know it's complicated by her weight, but she isn't so old that I find her pregnancy unbelievable.

[NutMeg]

10 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm sick to death of cringeworthy Randall, period. It isn't endearing, it's obnoxious.

Both Randall and Toby are written as often cringeworthy. Last season we had more of that with Toby, this season it's Randall. It's like the show runners think it makes them (the characters) adorable or something.

8 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

At first I thought little Jack was talking to himself when I heard the voice from the backseat.  I must have jumped five feet when I saw a child pop up. Poor Nicky is surely toast--I refuse to let myself get attached to another dead Pearson man. 

At first, I thought Jack had a little imaginary friend.

7 hours ago, Cardie said:

Randall going into the restroom was one more example showing that Fogelman has no sense of it being necessary for men to respect women's boundaries. Because the women usually reward these transgressions by going all gaga or at least sharing something deeply private and emotional, the show conveys the message that this is totally OK.  It drives me crazy.

I know - same thing happened many times with Toby and, to a lesser extent, with Jack last season.

Also, when Randall started his speech to Deja about his first day at his new school, I was struck by how much he often assumes he knows what is in the other person's head and inserts some personal anecdote so that they can bond over it. In reality, Randall is so much in his head that he can't even see a real problem when it's staring him in the face - I'm thinking of Kevin not being in a good space. But then, nobody's paying attention to Kevin the real person (Pearson) and what he feels, they just see whatever label they choose to put on him: actor, the Manny, jerk, good looking, asshole, popular, etc. 

[Madtown]

11 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Are we positive his brother died? I mean, sure, we can assume. But all we know for sure is that Jack had a brother and they were in Vietnam together.

I wondered if his brother actually died too. I know we saw some tags in the drawer, but we don't know if they were his brother's or Jack's. Nicky could've been seriously injured and be taken care of somewhere. Or maybe Nickt became an addict like their dad and Jack wasn't going to be a part of it. When Nicky popped up in the backseat, I was floored, but I'm really looking forward to knowing the story.

Not sure how I'm feeling about the whole Kevin addiction story. I figured if any of them were to get an addiction, it would be him. When Kate mentioned after he hurt his knee that he had to be careful, was it because he was addicted to pain killers when he hurt his knee before or was she telling him he had to be careful for the knee itself? I wonder if it goes back to when he had the cast on when he was in high school or if was something that happened later on.

I also hope, that now Kate seems happier about being pregnant, that she stays that way and isn't a mope fest through it all or it will be a very long 9 months, if nothing happens and she actually has the baby. I'm curious about what Rebecca's reaction will be when they finally tell her.

Next weeks look interesting, I wonder about Kate's "boyfriend" and if he'll play a role in the near future.

[SunnyBeBe]

18 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Both Randall and Toby are written as often cringeworthy. Last season we had more of that with Toby, this season it's Randall. It's like the show runners think it makes them (the characters) adorable or something.

At first, I thought Jack had a little imaginary friend.

I know - same thing happened many times with Toby and, to a lesser extent, with Jack last season.

Also, when Randall started his speech to Deja about his first day at his new school, I was struck by how much he often assumes he knows what is in the other person's head and inserts some personal anecdote so that they can bond over it. In reality, Randall is so much in his head that he can't even see a real problem when it's staring him in the face - I'm thinking of Kevin not being in a good space. But then, nobody's paying attention to Kevin the real person (Pearson) and what he feels, they just see whatever label they choose to put on him: actor, the Manny, jerk, good looking, asshole, popular, etc. 

Yeah, Kevin's acting all odd, even around Kate, his twin, who we have been TOLD is very perceptive of his feelings. Recall how she awoke in the night with this sudden, unsettling sensation when his plane encountered turbulence one time? And when they were kids, he had pain, when she was sick in the hospital? So, they are so in tune for most of their lives.....  Oh well, so much for that garbage.  I suppose that she's distracted now.  I just don't think that it's unreasonable for the writers to keep track of the facts from previous seasons and to be consistent.  Viewers are sophisticated now and expect more from their tv entertainment.  Those writers are well paid and being lazy and careless about things shows laziness, imo. 

[JudyObscure]

37 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Also, when Randall started his speech to Deja about his first day at his new school, I was struck by how much he often assumes he knows what is in the other person's head and inserts some personal anecdote so that they can bond over it.

He does that, plus  over reaches, plus goes where no man should ever go -- but -- I think at some point Deja is going to start loving Randal for just how hard he's trying.  When has she ever had someone in her life like that?  Randal makes me cry with that stuff.

[OtterMommy]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Randall, it shouldn't take a 12 year old who's been in and out of foster care to tell you that one of the places she stayed was abusive in order for you to figure out that you shouldn't grab her.

So much this.  No, you shouldn't grab a 12 year old who's been in and out of foster care.  No, you shouldn't grab a 12 year old.  No, you shouldn't grab a female.  No, you shouldn't grab anyone.  

The Deja line is really conflicting for me because I think it could be good, but it just seems to be another stage to show off Randall.  He's not a dumb man, but he seems completely clueless to anything outside of himself.  In season 1, we had a bit of Beth trying to get him to function, for lack of a better word, more appropriately, but this season it just seems like all she does is enable his behavior.  In season 1, Randall was probably the most compelling character.  This season, he seems to just be a caricature (in other words, his character is falling to the level of pretty much every other character in this show).  It's frustrating because there is so much potential with him, and they have such a great actor playing him, that it all feels like such a waste.

This is also one more hint into how Fogelman sees women.  We have Kate, who has all her problems on the outside, but they rarely, if ever, try to go deep with her; Rebecca, who seems to be little more than something for Jack to coddle and control; and Beth, who we know only in terms of her husband.  (We also have Sophie, who is the equivalent of paste as far as I can tell).  I'm not saying that the male characters are fully developed and complex (because they really aren't), but at least it feels like more effort is at least directed their way.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't think they've ever given her program an official name. It seems to be some sort of generic weight loss group. But none of the official groups would ever permit that, I agree.

It appears to be a fictional cross between Overeaters Anonymous and Weight Watchers. The way they sit and share those particular type of stories makes it seem like OA, but the weigh-ins make it seem like Weight Watchers.

Re: Madison's reasons for being there - from what we've seen, Madison is there because she feels fat when she looks in the mirror, despite being underweight. That sounds like a textbook case of anorexia. Personally, I don't think it's right to allow a person with anorexia to participate in a group where people exchange tips on how to eat less.

There are lots and lots of support groups for people with eating disorders and/or body dysmorphia, and she absolutely deserves a chance to be heard in that kind of an environment. But the fact that she's chosen this group makes me think that she doesn't want help with overcoming her eating disorder. She doesn't want to be around people who will encourage her to eat more - she wants help with her goal of eating less.

The leader of the group should have referred her elsewhere long ago.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

This show has flashbacks for it's flashbacks. Next we'll get a flashback of Jack's grandfather drinking and Jack's father as a kid. Also, we've already got the triplets in 4 stages of their lives; infants, 10 year-olds, teens and present day. And they are about to add them in their 20's! Next it will be a flashback from 5 years ago--see how the triplets were in their early 30's! I can't help but snark even though it's all fairly well done. It's just so much. We've seen flashbacks of Jack as a kid, in war, before he was a father, as a new father and a father of teens. Plus we've got present day and they are adding The Big Three in their 20's. That's a lot, am I wrong?

I'm agreed with everyone on Kate's rudeness, Toby's rudeness and Randall's cluelessness. However, I do see how Sophie even as a nurse might miss Kevin's pill popping. People are often in denial about the ones they love. It seems like she chalked it up to all the drinking he was doing, plus she hasn't spent much time with him recently. I would be royally pissed if I were her and Kevin did that to me. Wow. I would let him have it.

I liked the direction they went with Jack and his father. I liked that Jack declined to go see him. They could have had him have some teary reconciliation with him at the last minute, which I think would have been unrealistic. I can't imagine what it must have been like to be stuck in a car while your father was drinking. And after he got your hopes up about going fishing. I'm kind of glad his brother popped up just so he wasn't stuck there alone!

[Arcadiasw]

4 hours ago, llewis823 said:

Before they left - when she was modeling dresses for him - she even told him to slow down the drinking because they had a long night ahead of them. Him being drunk is not a surprise to her. The sweaty nervous Kevin at the event - and nobody noticing - yeah, right.

Given how kid and adult Kevin are often overlooked, it's not a surprise.

[meep.meep]

Toby has a job!

[roughing it]

10 hours ago, Aileen said:

And this was the second week in a row that Toby didn't totally suck.

I thought he totally sucked, again!  We were right back to the sex stuff being right under the surface with him, what with him grandly swooping everything off his desk because he thinks he's getting some.  Every little gesture from Kate makes him think he's getting some.  Kate makes a comment...oooh it means she wants sex!  Kate looks at her phone....oooh it means she wants sex!  Kate asks to please pass the ketchup...oooh it means she wants sex!  ...in Toby's puny narrow mind anyway.

[Trillian]

I'm already fed up with the Deja and "Randall is stupid" plotline.  You'd think the man had just crawled out of a cave after 30 years or so and doesn't know how to relate to people.

Deja would not have died from trying to eat shrimp tails.  There was no cause to lay hands on her to save her.  And anyway, if Randall had been half-way solicitous of his young charge in the first place, he would have noticed the way she looked at it and would've said  "Ever had shrimp before?  They're lovely, but the tails are tough - don't eat them".

"Sophie (or any woman nearby), would you mind popping [not pooping] into the ladies' room and checking on my foster daughter? " Real simple.

And no grown man should ever that easily put himself in the position of being alone with a female child who is not his daughter, or at least a very close relative. False accusations and misunderstandings happen, and the latter is more likely with a child who is obviously uncomfortable around men (Kevin excepted). If Deja were to allege that Randall assaulted her or that he had acted sexually-inappropriate to her, he's got the worst optics:  bursts into her bedroom and starts ranting about her personal matters and his mental health problems, bursts into the ladies' bathroom after her, bought her a fancy dress and takes her to a grown-up evening event, was alone with her in the car at night.  All innocent acts he did with the best of intentions, but do they ever look bad.  

Edited October 25, 2017 by Trillian
Shrimp don't have legs

[Jax7917]

I actually find Toby's character to act like a caricature . Everything he does in life is a big declaration of how much he loves Kate . His personality just doesn't feel realistic to me . Can't he ever just have a normal conversation ? 

[SunnyBeBe]

58 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

So much this.  No, you shouldn't grab a 12 year old who's been in and out of foster care.  No, you shouldn't grab a 12 year old.  No, you shouldn't grab a female.  No, you shouldn't grab anyone.  

The Deja line is really conflicting for me because I think it could be good, but it just seems to be another stage to show off Randall.  He's not a dumb man, but he seems completely clueless to anything outside of himself.  In season 1, we had a bit of Beth trying to get him to function, for lack of a better word, more appropriately, but this season it just seems like all she does is enable his behavior.  In season 1, Randall was probably the most compelling character.  This season, he seems to just be a caricature (in other words, his character is falling to the level of pretty much every other character in this show).  It's frustrating because there is so much potential with him, and they have such a great actor playing him, that it all feels like such a waste.

This is also one more hint into how Fogelman sees women.  We have Kate, who has all her problems on the outside, but they rarely, if ever, try to go deep with her; Rebecca, who seems to be little more than something for Jack to coddle and control; and Beth, who we know only in terms of her husband.  (We also have Sophie, who is the equivalent of paste as far as I can tell).  I'm not saying that the male characters are fully developed and complex (because they really aren't), but at least it feels like more effort is at least directed their way.

I agree.  In past seasons, Randall was aware though.  He realized that it was best to WAIT to tell the girls that his dad was his bio dad.  And, he was thoughtful about how his bio dad might feel in a lot of situations.  He tried to not push too hard.  He seemed to have some sense of what was appropriate.  But, the new Randall doesn't have those traits, imo.  It's just annoying and odd.  Once again, in my mind it's just a contrivance for the script and not in any way related to who that character truly is.  The young Randall of age 10 displays more tact and better judgment than the one from this season. 

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Kira53 said:

I totally disagree. It's not about Fogelman, it's about Randall.

If it were just Randall, I'd have no problems. But Jack and Toby are like this as well. If it's a pattern among several male characters, not all of whom are Pearsons, I call the showrunner who portrays them this way.

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I actually find Toby's character to act like a caricature . 

He's definitely cartoonish and sometimes I think he's there for comic relief (I personally do not find him funny, or charming). I do have to say I don't understand what he sees in Kate. She isn't shown making any contributions to the relationship. She seems to do a lot of taking and make plenty of demands.  I sorta feel like all the characters are more unlikeable this season.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

 

This is also one more hint into how Fogelman sees women.  We have Kate, who has all her problems on the outside, but they rarely, if ever, try to go deep with her; Rebecca, who seems to be little more than something for Jack to coddle and control; and Beth, who we know only in terms of her husband.  (We also have Sophie, who is the equivalent of paste as far as I can tell).  I'm not saying that the male characters are fully developed and complex (because they really aren't), but at least it feels like more effort is at least directed their way.

It's more like the show not having enough women writers.  It's hard to think about things from an opposite sex's perspective.  I'm trying to write a children's book where the central characters are boy-girl twins.  I was going to have them both narrate, but not only would it be confusing, but I could NOT for the life of me write as a boy.  It would either be a narrator or coming from the girl twin's perspective.  At least for the first attempt.  

[sasha206]

15 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

Small complaint, but an issue for me as a pharmacy tech: Kevin said he was out of refills on his Vicodin.  There would be no refills, as it's a Schedule II drug.  He would need a brand new RX for every fill.  Sorry, it just bugged me.

How about the fact that he seems to be walking beautifully on a leg that is supposedly so mangled that it's going to harm his acting career and hence spiraling into drugs.  Even with Vicodin painkillers, seemingly he would have SOME leg discomfort or walk with a limp right?

[marceline]

This episode really rubbed me the wrong way. The entire show seemed filled with the Pearsons being deliberately obtuse and awful to people. I'm starting to get "Parenthood" flashbacks. Jack Pearson is pretty much Kristina Braverman with a penis.

Kate tells Toby about the pregnancy then proceeds to tell him to keep his hopes and dreams to himself for 7 more months (because THAT's healthy in a relationship). 

Katen proceeds to berate Madison again. (And no, that wouldn't be allowed in a functional 12-step meeting. Those meetings are meant to be places where you are safe from abuse. That would've been shut down with the quickness.)

Randall just keeps doubling down on ignoring Deja's boundaries. All of his interactions with her are about him looking for a win. Grabbing at her? Going into the ladies room after her? I had a guy follow me into the ladies room once. It's not cool or fun because, guess what? Once you're in there: you're trapped. Don't chase the abused child into a room where she can't escape. Especially when she ran in there because you made her feel unsafe. As a matter of fact don't ever go into the ladies room unless its for medical reasons.

Kevin leaving Sophie hanging because of his insta-addiction. It reminds me of how he left Sloane onstage alone. Seriously show, it's not cute for Kevin to publicly humiliate people because he can't seem to table his impulses.

Toby's public...whatever that was. No, it's not charming for him to interrupt other people's meals and then pour water all over himself at a restaurant where he bought nothing. There are other diners there and they deserve to be able to eat in peace. 

The only high point for me was Rebecca and young Kate having some good decent mother/daughter time but overall this will probably go down as one of my least favorite episodes.

Edited October 25, 2017 by marceline

[ChromaKelly]

Did anyone else think Toby looked weird? Like overly made up or something?

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder if the writers are still feeling all gifted and special now?  I suppose they'll get a pass.  IMO, there's no reason they took their top rated show and dropped the ball.  I just don't get it.  I see in above posts that idea about the writers being too predominantly male.  I don't know.....I'm not sure that satisfies me as their excuse.  To me, it's about ignoring common sense and abandoning the true essence of the characters.  Oh and being lazy.  

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Trillian said:

I'm already fed up with the Deja and "Randall is stupid" plotline.  You'd think the man had just crawled out of a cave after 30 years or so and doesn't know how to relate to people.

By making him so horribly awkward and dorky and oblivious, they're making it pretty hard to believe that he was such a hotshot on Wall Street, and that he managed to make partner ridiculously young.

I can believe that he was great with numbers, and that he put in a lot of effort. Making partner in your twenties at that kind of firm takes more than that, though.

(And I'm fully aware that there are plenty of Wall Street bigshots who are unpleasant in social situations. But this kind of doofiness is something else altogether.)

[PRgal]

Question:  Do we know EXACTLY how bad Nicky's eyes are?  Or can people tell by the type of frames he has?  By the time I had to wear glasses in the 80s, frames were, in general, fairly thin - even if your eyesight's not too good (I'm not legally blind).  

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

Third kid is different from first kid, I think.  My great-grandmother had her first child around 30 (more than geriatric by standards back then - especially when a girl marries at, say, 16) and her final one in her mid-40s.  My grandmother was kid #3.  My grandmother was born in 1923.   

Like I said off the top of my head in my inner circle I know 3 people. I still know examples of the first kid being born to a mother of the age of 40.  It happens.  3rd, 1st, whatever.  It happens without medical intervention.

[monakane]

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I actually find Toby's character to act like a caricature . Everything he does in life is a big declaration of how much he loves Kate . His personality just doesn't feel realistic to me . Can't he ever just have a normal conversation ? 

I hope his grand gestures are a set-up for a more interesting, darker  story line.  I find him creepy and controlling.  Kate should get as far away from him as possible.  Maybe that is the direction the story is headed:  Kate getting away from this controlling man.

[PRgal]

Just now, Ms Blue Jay said:

Like I said off the top of my head in my inner circle I know 3 people. I still know examples of the first kid being born to a mother of the age of 40.  It happens.  3rd, 1st, whatever.  It happens without medical intervention.

There are some who can and others who'll need intervention.  Regardless, over 35 typically means higher risk - both for the mother AND baby. 

[methodwriter85]

35 minutes ago, monakane said:

I hope his grand gestures are a set-up for a more interesting, darker  story line.  I find him creepy and controlling.  Kate should get as far away from him as possible.  Maybe that is the direction the story is headed:  Kate getting away from this controlling man.

I'm pretty positive that the writers seem Toby as the romantic comedy hero, who just happens to look like a regular Joe Schmoe instead of Paul Rudd or Matthew McConnuaghey. Everything about his grand gestures scream like something that the writers saw in a romantic comedy and figure the ladies on the show will like because it reminds them of something from a romantic comedy.

Someone's going to be standing on a lawn playing "In Your Eyes" on a boombox before the series is out, I guarantee it. I did like the use of Hootie and the Blowfish, though.

Toby, Kevin, and Jack have all had those "grand gesture" moments. The only one who hasn't done that is Randall, because pretty much the only thing he's secure about is his marriage to Beth. He doesn't have to prove himself in that department.

1 hour ago, marceline said:

Kevin leaving Sophie hanging because of his insta-addiction. It reminds me of how he left Sloane onstage alone. Seriously show, it's not cute for Kevin to publicly humiliate people because he can't seem to table his impulses.

I'm still shocked that Kevin didn't walk off the set of the movie and he actually seemed to complete his part.

I do think Kevin's career should be shredded at this point given his erratic behavior in the past year.

[mcgkgm]

I am having mixed feelings on the Kate storyline (and her character in general).  I also find her kind of horrible, but at the same time, I'm relating so hard.  I'm the same age as the current-day triplets, and currently pregnant with my first child (and yes, over 35 automatically makes it geriatric, or advanced maternal age, whether it's more common now or not).  I was also quite overweight from the start, and that does add some extra risk.  I had two miscarriages over the past two years, so I totally understand trying to rein in the excitement/hope in those really early weeks when anything could happen.  I was pretty much numb about this pregnancy until around 10 weeks.  I hate the way she handled it, and how she expresses herself in general (never thought I'd say poor Toby, but damn that was harsh), but I also understand where she's coming from.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  I have a feeling it is going to be quite emotional for me no matter what.

[LadyNebula]

16 hours ago, elle said:

 

Is there not a rule that a doctor can not prescribe outside of their licensing state. i.e. a CA doctor could not write a prescription to filled in NY?

Well, in PA we can take RXs from other states, even on narcotics.  But they have to be written or e-escribed.  Phone orders for Vicodin is a no-no.

[colorbars]

I wasn't sure I'd be into the Deja storyline, but so far I am. I've liked everything they've addressed with her so far (especially the hair issue last week) and how they've done it. And her crush on Kevin was really cute, too.

I'm really surprised Toby didn't throw a fit when he found out Kate was pregnant and didn't tell him. But maybe he didn't realize she's known for a while? I can't remember if she shared that part.

I hope we don't see too many flashbacks of Jack and his brother. They looked cute, but the acting was bad, especially compared to how well the other kids on the show (in all timelines) are.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

How about the fact that he seems to be walking beautifully on a leg that is supposedly so mangled that it's going to harm his acting career and hence spiraling into drugs.  Even with Vicodin painkillers, seemingly he would have SOME leg discomfort or walk with a limp right?

I had to go back and check, but I think by the end of the episode, he did seem to have somewhat of a limp, once his Vicodin completely wore off. Also, when he was getting up from chairs, I noted that Kevin was struggling a bit. I'm not sure if it was consistent the entire episode, but I do think there was some hints here and there before the very end scene (besides the sweaty forehead and constant phone calls to his doctor). Besides that, Kevin didn't seem that comfortable with his leg. It definitely seem like it bothered him enough to be calling his doctor and snapping at people. 

[chitowngirl]

Kevin might not be in that much pain. He IS coming down from a high and wants that feeling again. He's out of pills and desperate for a fix.

[sasha206]

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I had to go back and check, but I think by the end of the episode, he did seem to have somewhat of a limp, once his Vicodin completely wore off. Also, when he was getting up from chairs, I noted that Kevin was struggling a bit. I'm not sure if it was consistent the entire episode, but I do think there was some hints here and there before the very end scene (besides the sweaty forehead and constant phone calls to his doctor). Besides that, Kevin didn't seem that comfortable with his leg. It definitely seem like it bothered him enough to be calling his doctor and snapping at people. 

Ah thanks.  I probably missed it.  The whole storyline seems so rushed to me in general that it's hard for me to buy it.  

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm pretty positive that the writers seem Toby as the romantic comedy hero, who just happens to look like a regular Joe Schmoe instead of Paul Rudd or Matthew McConnuaghey. Everything about his grand gestures scream like something that the writers saw in a romantic comedy and figure the ladies on the show will like because it reminds them of something from a romantic comedy.

Someone's going to be standing on a lawn playing "In Your Eyes" on a boombox before the series is out, I guarantee it. I did like the use of Hootie and the Blowfish, though.

Toby, Kevin, and Jack have all had those "grand gesture" moments. The only one who hasn't done that is Randall, because pretty much the only thing he's secure about is his marriage to Beth. He doesn't have to prove himself in that department.

I'm still shocked that Kevin didn't walk off the set of the movie and he actually seemed to complete his part.

I do think Kevin's career should be shredded at this point given his erratic behavior in the past year.

Right.  These grand gestures moments are so, so over the top and schmaltzy. 

This show has such a great idea, but they are ruining it in my mind with their constant speeches, big gestures, hero worship of characters.