S19.E39: Finale, Winner Revealed

[Callaphera]

3 minutes ago, lasu said:

Y'all can't be really telling me Paul went into the Big Brother house not once but TWICE without doing his homework?  Nah.  No one is that stupid.  He's in there telling people I'M A VET, I KNOW THIS GAME, and a motherfucker doesn't even know the damn jury can talk to each other?  Nah.  Listen, I've watched this show since the jump, and if I got accidentally cast on this show with no way out, I would be OBSESSING over every minute detail of every episode.  I would be reading every board to make sure I knew how to act correct to make you all love me the most.  I would be studying juries like a man person, and reading follow up interviews. I would be taking videos of myself to learn voice control in the diary room.  I would be getting my eyebrows microplaned because I wake up looking like Pink Floyd. I would be outside running eggs up a chain link fence and putting crisco on taped together garbage bags.  I would be practicing how to say I HAD TO GET YOU OUT BECAUSE YOU ARE SO STRONG I WAS A SCARED LITTLE GIRL WITH YOU IN THE HOUSE without laughing.  I would learn how to change clothes and pick my nose under the blankets. I would not be playing around, I would be writing my doctoral thesis on how to win Big Brother.  

So if you are telling me this fool spent SIX MONTHS of his stupid life on a game and never learned how to play, then I am telling you that fool DESERVED TO LOSE.

No lie. In post game interviews, Paul has said that he didn't watch last season (when he was on) and he probably won't watch this season (when he was on) and he's never been to jury so he might have underestimated what happens there. Also, he's more than willing to come back for a third go. Which no. No thank you. He still doesn't understand why he didn't win. Either that, or he's playing the best confused long con I've ever seen. 

[Nashville]

10 minutes ago, lasu said:

Y'all can't be really telling me Paul went into the Big Brother house not once but TWICE without doing his homework?  Nah.  No one is that stupid.  

Paul is - but that's according to Paul, so you might want to double-check the source.  :D

[Guest]

I don't watch post-game interviews but that "I don't even watch it" sounds like sour grapes to me.  And even if you don't, how could you not know the jurors talk?  It's a key element of the game.  One of very few.  And in all those hours in that house, don't the people in the house talk about the show itself?  

Question-- Do they usually show DR footage to the jury before they vote showing pretty important, damaging (to Paul) things like Paul calling himself the puppet master?   I would think if any DR footage is going to be shared to the jurors, people would know to be nice and humble and lie their asses off in there.  

[Rough Draft]

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Matt won a Veto (which Paul dictated him to use on Jason, so they could backdoor Cody), and both of "Maven" were left standing with Paul at the end of the "Inked and Evicted" questions HoH, before they threw the last question to Paul.  (Raven did it without a second thought; Matt clearly hesitates before deciding to follow suit.)  With proper motivation, they could have been as useful to Paul as Rosh HaShanah, who only won when people threw shit to her, and Josh, whom Paul controlled through their "mutual goat" pact.

If Paul had used Jason's second (and final) HoH to get Christmas out (on the theory she'd be too sympathetic if she got too far), saying that Matt's using the Veto on Jason had proved they could trust him for a while longer, and then set up the next HoH to bamboozle Jason (as actually happened), I think he would have been fine.  But I think he knew he couldn't get Maven to turn on each other at the F3, the way he could with Joshmas, so he took the easier route to F2, not understanding that his "I would vote for me, why didn't you?" jury-management non-skills say more about him than the 10 Jurors he's misread over the past two seasons.

There was at least one time when Paul actually took ownership of the abuse; the Pots'n'Pans/Raven cawing/backyard screamathon he unleashed on Cody and Jessica the week of my namesake.  He'd been all "what do you mean, I treat them like dogs?  I don't control anything!" to Cody and Jessica in the HoH just hours before.  (The same convo where he tried to "shhh!" Jessica and when Cody objected, Paul was "I can tell her to be quiet!"  No, dipshit, you can ask her.  You don't own Jessica, asshat.)  And then he was downstairs, with the "All my dogs are barking now!", although he made sure to tell Josh to "turn it up to a '30'" when Cody and Jessica couldn't hear him.

What I really don't understand, though, is what was the point of all the abuse? Jessica and Cody were already isolated; if they didn't win the comps, they were doomed.  Was it really worth pissing away not one, not two, but three Jury votes just to possibly discourage Mark/Elena from taking a shot at your seven allies, if they had won HoH, which they didn't, anyway?  (Neither of Marlena would have put Paul himself up.)  Paul put himself in position to lose if he didn't handle any two of the necessary six ally-trims he had to negotiate down the road properly; that's just foolish.

Instead he relied on theatrical productions to keep the evictees "in the dark", as if they wouldn't be able to compare notes in jury, anyway.  When there's a certain amount of betrayal that you know you're going to have to do, it might make sense to be able to cultivate your enemies' potential votes on a "no hard feelings, it was just game, right?" basis.  But he threw away Cody/Elena/Mark's votes right off the top, and then was buried because he could only toss the fairy dust in four of his six sheep's eyes.  Baaaaa-d jury management, TinyDick!  Baaaa-d!

This is an exemplary post.

[Callaphera]

17 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Question-- Do they usually show DR footage to the jury before they vote showing pretty important, damaging (to Paul) things like Paul calling himself the puppet master?   I would think if any DR footage is going to be shared to the jurors, people would know to be nice and humble and lie their asses off in there.  

DR footage is never shown to the jury until after the vote is cast. The Diary Room is supposed to be - at least in theory - the place where you can go to rant, rave, speculate, bitch, whine, moan, go through the whole gamut of emotions and drop all the info about what your strategy is. But it's so scripted now that there's no way to tell what's genuine and what's not (Mark has since made a comment about how the production staff can get him to any emotion they need to in the DR to get footage of it, no doubt meaning his cry sessions in there). 

They've been scripted and producer driven for awhile but I honestly blame Derrick from BB16 for how DR sessions go now. He was so tight lipped about his strategy and true feelings in there that they seem to have gone overboard in making sure they have good footage. Because he was afraid that if he did say anything, production might get into another HG's ear in the DR and drop some clues and ruin his tightly controlled game. The DR has gotten in ears before with pointed yet vague comments about how they might "feel" about a certain scenario and it's been enough to tip off the HGs as to what someone's strategy is that week. It was a smart move for Derrick but it leaves us with the DR sessions we get now. 

In this case, the DR footage was shown after the vote was cast but before it was revealed. Which is how it usually goes. It's not like anyone could have jumped up and told Julie they wanted to change their vote. They're stuck at that point.

[Guest]

Oh thanks.   I thought for sure that was before the votes were cast, so I was really confused. 

[Pixel]

I think if Paul had said, "Yes, I aligned with everyone. It was the smart thing to do. I had to adjust my game and alliances constantly depending on how it looked like the wind was going to blow. I regret that I couldn't come clean and tell you all what I was doing, but it would have blown my game. But...while I manipulated you all, I didn't force you to do anything. You made those choices on your own. I'm happy they benefited me, of course, and I was amazed that you all did what I told you to do, but you made your own decisions to do those things and stick with me. Lying and manipulating is how this game works.", I think maybe he could have swayed enough votes to win. 

 

I think he deserved to win, but I'm so, so happy he didn't. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Pixel

[Hanahope]

So when they showed the montage of Josh's goodbye messages, I thought that on TV, we had only seen one of them (for Jason), yet Julie seemed to suggest that the jury, or at least the other evicted HGs, had seen the other messages.  Thus, apparently even if its not shown on TV, the evicted HG sees his or her goodbye messages (or at least those that CBS chooses to show to the evicted HG).

I thought it was great for Josh to reveal his game to the evicted HG with the message, since the evicted HG was no longer listening to Paul or at least couldn't be convinced otherwise by talking to Paul after the fact.

[laurakaye]

19 hours ago, green said:

To me the season is about Josh growing.  Maybe not growing up totally but growing enough -- just enough, but that is all we needed -- to be able to take Paul down by figuring out Paul was totally blowing his jury management game at the same time Josh was regretting his past actions more and more.  Josh saw the opening and started leaving the necessary jury exit video breadcrumbs for them.

Your whole post was fantastic but I loved this paragraph so much that I wanted to quote it.  Josh says that he's an intelligent player, and I thought - yeah, not so much but nice try, Meatball.  But you worded this really well.  I didn't give him near enough credit for those GBM's where he came clean and apologized.  If he truly saw through Lil' Gnome's gameplay and countered with his own private moves, that's pretty intelligent.  And all those times when he called himself "Your Boy" in the DR's and I quietly gritted my teeth because he was stealing Paul's spiel?  Hahahaha...turns out Josh was right about that too.

 

18 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I totally noticed that and thought: Poor Kevin, all he wants in life is to get his arm back.

Quoting this because I laughed out loud at work and had to cover it by pretending to cough.  :)

 

As for Hirsute Tiny Person saying he's not going to watch this season?  I think he's going to buy several binders, one color per houseguest (green for Raven), watch and dissect every moment of the past 92 days, write copious notes, drench his beard in tears, call his momma to bring him another grilled cheese, wonder where it all went so terribly wrong, and wait for BB to call again.

Edited September 22, 2017 by laurakaye

[gunderda]

18 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So when they showed the montage of Josh's goodbye messages, I thought that on TV, we had only seen one of them (for Jason), yet Julie seemed to suggest that the jury, or at least the other evicted HGs, had seen the other messages.  Thus, apparently even if its not shown on TV, the evicted HG sees his or her goodbye messages (or at least those that CBS chooses to show to the evicted HG).

I thought it was great for Josh to reveal his game to the evicted HG with the message, since the evicted HG was no longer listening to Paul or at least couldn't be convinced otherwise by talking to Paul after the fact.

Yea I think Grodner(?) confirmed that they see all of their goodbye messages, even those who get evicted by a surprised eviction like DE.

[jumper sage]

50 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So when they showed the montage of Josh's goodbye messages, I thought that on TV, we had only seen one of them (for Jason), yet Julie seemed to suggest that the jury, or at least the other evicted HGs, had seen the other messages

Maybe when Julie says, "Sit right there", she means more videos are coming.

[Rachel RSL]

Ok, even though I think Paul played the best game and "deserved" to win, I went back and rewatched the last part of the finale (several times actually) because watching Paul dissolve into a pouty bearded mess is absolutely hysterical, even to those of us who were rooting for him.  Honestly, after they play Josh's goodbye messages, watching his face go from shock to horror to the knowledge he is well and truly fucked is a thing of beauty. And, when they got down to reading the final vote, was he crying and muttering over and over "Not again!"?  Because that? Is HILARIOUS!

Edited September 25, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[seacliffsal]

I don't buy that Paul doesn't watch himself on Big Brother after the season ends.  He just seems so enthralled with himself that I don't see him missing an opportunity to watch himself on t.v.  Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true.

[nkotb]

44 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Ok, even though I think Paul played the best game and "deserved" to win, I went back and rewatched the last part of the finale (several times actually) because watching Paul dissolve into a pouty bearded mess is absolutely hysterical, even to those of us who were rooting for him.  Honestly, after they play Josh's goodbye messages, watching his face go from shock to horror to the knowledge he is well and truly fucked is a thing of beauty. And, when they got down to reading the final vote, was he was crying and muttering over and over "Not again!"?  Because that? Is HILARIOUS!

I seriously rewatched the finale yesterday, & I saw Paul muttering "not again!". It was quite the thing of beauty. The fact that Julie read them backwards should have been his first clue. To the best of my knowledge, & my BB memory ain't what it used to be since I've had kids, but she usually reads them in actual order, unless it's a situation like this, a 5-4 vote, where Josh would have won before the final vote. Milk it, Julie!

I started out this post planning to reply to some of the posters about Paul's jury-handling, then, as I read your posts, I changed my thoughts on that. My original thought was that Paul likely assumed that production would give him an assist, by not showing any good-bye messages that reflected negatively on him, should there be any, just like how they gave him the assist with he miraculously won 3 weeks of safety at the beginning. Then, as I read your posts & remembered that Paul didn't watch last season, & no seasons before that, I realized that he probably didn't know much about the good-bye messages, beyond what he said in his, because he'd never actually seen them, so he didn't put much thought into them. Advantage: Josh. I'll never forgive Josh for the pots & pans & the way he treated Mark (I know Mark behaved badly with the hot sauce-throwing, but Josh was just a menace throughout, & Mark is just a great guy who blew up at an asshole once, then he was treated like crap for weeks on end, & ultimately had to vote for one of those d-bags to win $500,000; side note, I think Mark's vote was partially because he saw some good in Josh, & thinks he might be redeemable, whereas Paul is the same asshole this year he was last year, & likely won't change), but his good-bye messages where a stroke of genius. I really think that production showing Josh's honest good-bye messages right before Paul's lying ones, were productions way of saying a big "F you!" to Paul. Well-played, for once.

Having said all of that, I personally think Paul played the best game, or best most of the game, but his social skills sank him. Yet again. Josh's win wasn't a happy one for our house, because he's awful, too, but at least he's a little less awful, & like I think Mark thinks, I do think Josh is redeemable, & I'd love to see a follow-up on him, because I do think he'll do some good with his winnings. #BridesmaidAgain

Finally, I have egg on my face. I said repeatedly that production wouldn't let rape-joke Jason anywhere near AFP, but I was way wrong. As shocked as I was about Paul losing, via Cody's vote, no less, I was probably more surprised that Jason was in the top 3 & Mark wasn't. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by nkotb

[backformore]

18 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I don't buy that Paul doesn't watch himself on Big Brother after the season ends.  He just seems so enthralled with himself that I don't see him missing an opportunity to watch himself on t.v.  Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true.

Oh yeah - he has already watched the entire season on DVR, I'm sure of it.  And I'm sure he's swearing and yelling about certain HG's, looking, not for "where did I go wrong?",  But for "who screwed me over?" 

[MrHufflepuff]

3 minutes ago, backformore said:

Oh yeah - he has already watched the entire season on DVR, I'm sure of it.  And I'm sure he's swearing and yelling about certain HG's, looking, not for "where did I go wrong?",  But for "who screwed me over?" 

And the answer to that, Paul, is "You played yourself, you gumpy fool!"

ETA:  I don't even know what gumpy is supposed to mean.  I just put it in there.

Edited September 22, 2017 by MrHufflepuff

[le bordel chaud]

Yes @nkotb. I believe she read the votes backwards last year as well!

Edited September 22, 2017 by Victim Noises

[Nashville]

37 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I don't buy that Paul doesn't watch himself on Big Brother after the season ends.  He just seems so enthralled with himself that I don't see him missing an opportunity to watch himself on t.v.  Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true.

This thought had also crossed my mind as well, that Paul was too much in love with himself to miss seeing how he was being portrayed on the little screen – but then I figured he just fast-forwarded through any scenes which didn't include him, so he probably missed a lot.  ;>

[gunderda]

But how would they know for Julie to read it backwards or not?? They don't tell BB who they're voting for beforehand.  

I think it was just dumb luck the vote came down to Cody. 

[Callaphera]

34 minutes ago, nkotb said:

Finally, I have egg on my face. I said repeatedly that production wouldn't let rape-joke Jason anywhere near AFP, but I was way wrong. As shocked as I was about Paul losing, via Cody's vote, no less, I was probably more surprised that Jason was in the top 3 & Mark wasn't. 

This. A million times this. Word. Co-sign. All of the above. 

Unfortunately the broadcast didn't show what the feed watchers saw: Mark being verbally harassed for weeks by Josh, by Christmas, by Alex, Mark being harassed for not standing up for the person who bullied him and heaped the most abuse on him, and poor Mark, just looking dumsquizzled and trying to walk away while they continued to shout. They also didn't see the rape comments Jason made (multiple, at least three occasions: the nursing home "joke", the claim that the worst thing he would never say - but said anyway - was that he was going to have sex with Kevin's wife while his kids were tied up and watching, and the comment about holding Raven down while everyone else took their turn) unless they read the TMZ articles. 

So it makes sense in one way that Jason was in top 3 and Mark wasn't but damn it, I truly believe Mark deserved AFP more than anyone. Not because he was a great game player, but because he took that all, took it calmly, and handled his eviction with grace. AFP is more popularity contest than a "deserving" prize unfortunately. 

(And yes, there was the hot sauce/pickle juice moment. Which he apologized for, said that he regretted, and moved on. I don't even blame him for trying to take the pots and pans away from Josh during the infamous tutu incident. The guy had been harassed for hours at that point and just lost. his. shit. It could happen to the nicest person.)

[backformore]

2 minutes ago, gunderda said:

But how would they know for Julie to read it backwards or not?? They don't tell BB who they're voting for beforehand.  

I think it was just dumb luck the vote came down to Cody. 

I think Julie or someone knew how everyone voted, so it could come down to a tie vote with one person breaking the tie.  They weren't going to chance having the winner be known without EVERY vote being read. 

[Nashville]

2 minutes ago, gunderda said:

But how would they know for Julie to read it backwards or not?? They don't tell BB who they're voting for beforehand.  

I think it was just dumb luck the vote came down to Cody. 

If I'm not mistaken, the reverse-order reading has been SOP for the last few seasons.

[green]

13 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't watch post-game interviews but that "I don't even watch it" sounds like sour grapes to me.  And even if you don't, how could you not know the jurors talk?  It's a key element of the game.  One of very few.  And in all those hours in that house, don't the people in the house talk about the show itself?  

Question-- Do they usually show DR footage to the jury before they vote showing pretty important, damaging (to Paul) things like Paul calling himself the puppet master?   I would think if any DR footage is going to be shared to the jurors, people would know to be nice and humble and lie their asses off in there.  

This was explained above in detail but just wanted to add the history behind all of this.

They did show diary room stuff in Season 3 and it cost Danielle the game.  Danielle was one of the most likeable and popular players of all time so the fact that the jury got upset since she was hilariously snarking in her diary room musings and it and it alone cost her the game left fans a bitter taste.  And it did definitely decided the game against her.  That was confirmed by the jury.  Otherwise she would have won.  Period.

So from Season 4 onward the rule was "what is said in the diary room stays in the diary room" as far as regarding other players ever seeing it before the final vote.  Like stated above the producers needed the hamsters to give them good diary room stuff and after Season 3 no one was going to say anything remotely interesting in the diary room without that new rule in place.

Edited September 23, 2017 by green

[Eolivet]

1 hour ago, backformore said:

I think Julie or someone knew how everyone voted, so it could come down to a tie vote with one person breaking the tie.  They weren't going to chance having the winner be known without EVERY vote being read. 

This. Sure, it worked out that they could read them backwards, but I don't think there have ever been seasons where all the votes aren't read/keys aren't pulled, including 8-1, 7-2 and 6-3 seasons. It's like Survivor -- they must "tally" the ... keys, I guess.

[Thalia]

6 hours ago, lasu said:

So if you are telling me this fool spent SIX MONTHS of his stupid life on a game and never learned how to play, then I am telling you that fool DESERVED TO LOSE.

I say this every time I watch The Amazing Race and see someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick shift.  

ETA:  I have a memory of seeing someone winning with only 5 or 6 keys drawn, going to commercial break and then having Julie tell us the other votes.  But it could be something I saw on Survivor, and not BB.  This time I found myself wondering if the keys had some kind of chip in them, and that production would know the result of a vote once a key was inserted.  It probably wouldn't be difficult to come up with that kind of technology.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by Thalia

[Jesse]

5 hours ago, Pixel said:

I think if Paul had said, "Yes, I aligned with everyone. It was the smart thing to do. I had to adjust my game and alliances constantly depending on how it looked like the wind was going to blow. I regret that I couldn't come clean and tell you all what I was doing, but it would have blown my game. But...while I manipulated you all, I didn't force you to do anything. You made those choices on your own. I'm happy they benefited me, of course, and I was amazed that you all did what I told you to do, but you made your own decisions to do those things and stick with me. Lying and manipulating is how this game works.", I think maybe he could have swayed enough votes to win. 

 

I think he deserved to win, but I'm so, so happy he didn't. 

Isn't that the original Dr. Will playbook? Tell everyone you're going to lie to them and tell them what they want to hear, then do exactly that -- to everyone's shock! and surprise! And eventual respect.

 

Speaking of Dr. Will, I think he got a proper facelift instead of relying on fillers, and it worked out pretty well. (Not that people his/my age need or should get facelifts.)

[LoneHaranguer]

3 hours ago, gunderda said:

But how would they know for Julie to read it backwards or not?? They don't tell BB who they're voting for beforehand.

The weekly eviction voting shows that they're pretty good about predicting how each HG will go, letting them set a voting order that stretches out the result. Same principle here, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in each slot that told the producers what the votes were so that they could shake up the reveal if the wrong juror surprised them.

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, Christina said:

This is making the rounds on social media, and it is about Paul telling the others how to behave. Paul told them that he had won AFP last year, but since he was in final 2 he couldn't receive it. I think he is lying about that because every poll I saw had Victor in first place for a long time. So, when he is telling them this behavior is what America likes, and America gave him three weeks safety upon entering the house, they were a bit conditioned to think that he knew what he was talking about.

You've got to be kidding me.  When Jessica had my namesake and Paul was HoH and they had all those awkward conversations with her asking if he had any questions for her, I read (not on a feeds thread; I don't read those in real-time) that the reason was because she didn't want to show her entire hand, but she couldn't just make up a story because she was not allowed to lie about the Temptation.  She couldn't just go "it allows me to take over the HoH and the previous HoH is not safe from my nominations", or anything like that.

But they let Paul tell this lie about the AFP for game advantage?  Yeah, that's fair.

7 hours ago, lasu said:

Y'all can't be really telling me Paul went into the Big Brother house not once but TWICE without doing his homework?  Nah.  No one is that stupid.

Or that lazy.  Remember, both seasons Paul (like the other HGs) spent a week in pre-sequester, not allowed to communicate with anyone, no access to the internet, and virtually no media provided…except for DVDs of previous seasons.  14 days of being locked in a hotel room with old Big Brother episodes as virtually his only entertainment, and he never bothered to learn the game he was going to play?  What a buffoon.

5 hours ago, gunderda said:

Yea I think Grodner(?) confirmed that they see all of their goodbye messages, even those who get evicted by a surprised eviction like DE.

 

5 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Maybe when Julie says, "Sit right there", she means more videos are coming.

I don't know if they have time to play all the vids during the ad break (particularly early, when there are 10 or so videos to go through), especially as they have to prep Julie for the next segment.  I think the HGs see all of their goodbye messages either before or after they do the extended interview that follows the live episode, whether it was with Julie (in past seasons) or Big Jeff or just answering questions from a screen, as they did this season.  But I believe that all the evictees see all of their goodbye messages (to avoid giving anyone still in the House an advantage) but these are not on the DVD that they take to Jury, as they are personal communications.  (I could be wrong about this, though.)

[K-9]

Julie's "sit right there" probably is to prevent the evicted HG from walking in front of Julie's camera shot while making the show announcements to viewers.  

[Eolivet]

2 hours ago, Thalia said:

I have a memory of seeing someone winning with only 5 or 6 keys drawn, going to commercial break and then having Julie tell us the other votes.  But it could be something I saw on Survivor, and not BB.

No, you're probably right, now that I think about it. I think what I mean is BB will always show all the "loser's" votes. So, if someone wins 8-1, it won't just be 5 keys drawn for the winner. Same with 7-2 and 6-3. But you're right -- they can't show all 8/7/6 keys for the winner because the winner only needs 5 to win. But I believe the losers will always have all their keys/votes shown. Same with Survivor.

(the unanimous wins on Survivor and the one time on BB10 are always interesting, because it's 5 or 6 of the same person in a row, it gets to be anticlimactic and really sinks in for the losers "you did not get one single vote." Heh.)

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Eolivet said:

This. Sure, it worked out that they could read them backwards, but I don't think there have ever been seasons where all the votes aren't read/keys aren't pulled, including 8-1, 7-2 and 6-3 seasons. It's like Survivor -- they must "tally" the ... keys, I guess.

Every key is pulled, every year.  IIRC what's different with landslides is when Julie pulls the fifth (definitive win) vote key for a HG:

1. Chenbot engages Victory Announcement Mode.
2. Immediate celebration ensues, winner exits House to a shower of confetti, etc.
3. After the initial brouhaha subsides, Julie continues with a relatively abbreviated reveal of any remaining keys.

 

2 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The weekly eviction voting shows that they're pretty good about predicting how each HG will go, letting them set a voting order that stretches out the result. Same principle here, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in each slot that told the producers what the votes were so that they could shake up the reveal if the wrong juror surprised them.

Er... the voting order was "set" - as usual - by this season's order of evictions: the first evicted Juror (Cody) casts the first vote, 2nd evicted (Elena) votes next, etc.  

Votes were then revealed in reverse of the voting order - also as usual.

 

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

You've got to be kidding me.  When Jessica had my namesake and Paul was HoH and they had all those awkward conversations with her asking if he had any questions for her, I read (not on a feeds thread; I don't read those in real-time) that the reason was because she didn't want to show her entire hand, but she couldn't just make up a story because she was not allowed to lie about the Temptation.  She couldn't just go "it allows me to take over the HoH and the previous HoH is not safe from my nominations", or anything like that.

But they let Paul tell this lie about the AFP for game advantage?  Yeah, that's fair.

Much as I dislike Paul, that's apples and oranges.  Paul was lying not about an active BB game factor, but about his past game history - and HGs can lie about their backgrounds all they want, so long as they're prepared to deal with the backlash if their lies are found out.  

And yes, Paul was definitely lying; that, or definitely delusional.  No way in hell did he get more votes than either Vic The UneVICtable, or that season's America's Favorite Couple James & Natalie - the three HGs who were named as the Top 3 in BB18's AFHG vote.

[Halting Hex]

4 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Paul was lying not about an active BB game factor, but about his past game history - and HGs can lie about their backgrounds all they want

But Paul wasn't lying about his rock band or his Mom's Bentley or his "success" in marketing tee-shirts online…he was claiming to have exclusive information from Production that none of the other HGs had access to.  That's pretty close to Jessica (hypothetically) making up stories about the Temptation, I'd think.  He used the fact that none of the HGs would be able to check the veracity of his story to his advantage, whereas Jessica was not allowed to do the same thing.

"Secret" game information, whether about your past result or your current status, would seem to be something that Production doesn't want you to traffic in; they don't want to be used as your accomplices, since they can't get on the mic and say "Oh, bullshit!  Paul's totally lying about this!" without then exposing every lie they're privy to, if they want to be fair.  I'd assume this is one of the reasons for the "You are not allowed to talk about the contents of your Diary Room sessions with other Houseguests" rule.  But JMO.

[green]

About the hamsters seeing all their goodbye messages.  Julie confirmed they do in an interview. 

She said the reason Alex wasn't shown any on the live TV show was because she was the second person out on a double elimination night and they didn't pre-record messages in advance for that one because only goodbye messages are recorded for those nominated.  So if the hamsters started recording goodbye messages for the people not on the block for the first eviction it would give away the surprise of the second eviction that night to them in advance.

She said after the eviction and the live TV show ended the remaining hamsters were then instructed to go to the diary room one by one to record after the fact goodbye messages for Alex which were shown to her later.  So that was how Josh got his "telling it like it is" message to Alex though we never got to see it on TV at the time.  It was great we got to see it on the finale though, haha.

Edited September 23, 2017 by green

[Pondlass1]

I never watched live feeds, just watched the clip in the above post.  I'm no prude and I do swear at least once pretty much most days.... but so many F bombs in just general conversation!  It all seemed so juvenile.  

And strutting about with tutus and rubber duckies... cursing and swearing and yelling trying to win a point.  I dunno?  Is this what we become when cut off from normal daily life?  Have some self awareness people!  The cameras are 24/7.

[MisterBluxom]

IMO, someone needs to write a small booklet that discusses how to try to win at this game and it should be given to all new players when they enter the house.

So many people claim to be "super fans" or some such nonsense when they really have no idea how to win at this game. They all claim they intend to win. But they really don't. Many say they would be happy to finish in 2nd place. That's just so incredibly despicable. The viewers do not want to watch people who are not trying to win. Complete stupidity!

Most anyone who has watched a few seasons could easily write a brief booklet that would explain what these people need to know. It is incredibly obnoxious to watch people play this game when they really don't understand how at all how it works.

AAMOF, seems to me it is time to cancel this POS. At the very least, I think they should get a new host. I know many people will disagree with me. But I have always found Julie to be an awful host. I have watched most all the seasons and I always fast forward past her appearances on the camera. Nothing she says seems to be important for the viewer to hear. So much of what is said or what matters is repeated many times and it's just gets to be nauseating after a while. This show has run its course and it is no longer very entertaining. There are many things wrong with this show. I could probably write a very long list if I took some time to think about it. But, off the top of my head:

 

. The prize money is far too small.

. The way players describe the competitions seriously detracts from the audience's enjoyment of the competitions.

. The producers downright "CHEAT" the audience members by preventing us from seeing so much of the interesting aspects of what goes on in the House as well as the Jury House. It's ridiculous to pay money for live feeds when so much of the very best parts of the live feeds are blocked and we can't see them.

. So much of what the host and announcers say is so repetitive and unnecessary and boring and useless and just makes me want to turn off the TV or mute it or kick in the screen. They really need to fix this if they plan to keep showing it and use the same boring format.

. The producers really need to hold a "town hall" type of discussion with the fans and listen to what they say. It's as if they think they know the best way to produce this show and there is no need to pay any attention to what the audience wants or thinks about the current format. That is just a terribly stupid way to operate and if only this show operated in some competetive environment, it would get cancelled right quick by ignoring the desires of the audience.

. There is a huge "disconnect" between the host and the events on the show. IOW, it's as if Julie never even watches the show. Instead, she is given a list of questions and told to ask them of certain players. She is also given a list of comments and told to say these things without really understanding their significance.

. The "live questions" are not really at all live. They are prepared in advance and the jury members are forced to ask certain questions of certain jury members. The entire process just stinks. After all, this is supposedly a free country and people need to be free to say what they want and ask what they want. The kinds of restrictions imposed on the Jury members really kills most of the potential enjoyment of this show.

 

I guess it's an important lesson to learn. If the producer of a TV show gets decent rating, it doesn't matter what the audience wants. The network bosses are happy to let the producer do whatever they want. As long as the ratings meet or exceed some artificial level, the audience is expected to eat shit and pretend to enjoy it. Bottom line? It makes me want to give a giant "Fuck You" to the producers of this shit show.

Edited September 23, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

IMO, someone needs to write a small booklet that discusses the kinds of strategy and tactics that good players use to try and win this game. I think something like that should be given to all of the players when they enter the house.

So many people claim to be "super fans" when they really have no idea how this game works or how to best try to win the game. During the opening segments on the very first episode, all the players state they will win. But they really don't seem to have any idea just how they will do that. Many say they would be happy to finish in 2nd place. But, that is just incredibly silly. The viewers do not want to watch people who are not trying to win. How ridiculous!

Most anyone who has watched a few seasons could easily write a brief booklet that would explain what these people need to know. It is incredibly obnoxious to watch people play this game when they really don't understand just how it works.

AAMOF, seems to me it is time to cancel this POS. At the very least, I think they should get a new host. I know many people will disagree with me. But I have always found Julie to be an awful host. I have watched most all the seasons and I always fast forward past her appearances on the camera. Nothing she says seems to be important for the viewer to hear. So much of what is said or what matters is repeated many times and it's just gets to be nauseating after a while. This show has run its course and it is no longer very entertaining. There are many things wrong with this show. I could probably write a very long list if I took some time to think about it. But, off the top of my head:

 

. The prize money is far too small.

. The way players describe the competitions seriously detracts from the viewers' enjoyment of the competitions.

. The producers downright "CHEAT" the audience members by preventing us from seeing so much of the interesting aspects of what goes on in the House as well as the Jury House. It's ridiculous to pay money for live feeds when so much of the very best parts of the live feeds are blocked and we can't see them. I can't tell you how often I was interested in seeing just what was going on in the house - only to find the feeds were down yet again. And why can't they show us what is going on in the jury house? Seems to me, that is often more interesting - much more interesting - then what is going on in the BB house. If they want us to pay for the feeds, they should give us feeds - almost all the time and in both the BB house and the Jury House. During this season, I would guess the feeds were down almost half the time. That is just  not fair. Not worth paying for feeds  under those circumstances. We pay for the feeds because we want to see what is going on during the most interesting times but that is often when they turn off the feeds. WTH??

. So much of what the host and announcers say is so repetitive and unnecessary and boring and useless and just makes me want to turn off the TV or mute it or kick in the screen. They really need to fix this if they plan to keep showing it and use the same boring format.

. The producers really need to hold a "town hall" type of discussion with the fans and listen to what they say. It's as if they think they know the best way to produce this show and there is no need to pay any attention to what the audience wants or thinks about the current format. That is just a terribly stupid way to operate and if only this show operated in some competetive environment, it would get cancelled right quick by ignoring the desires of the audience.

. There is a huge "disconnect" between the host and the events on the show. IOW, it's as if Julie never even watches the show. Instead, she is given a list of questions and told to ask them of certain players. She is also given a list of comments and told to say these things without really understanding their significance.

. The "live questions" are not really at all live. They are prepared in advance and the jury members are forced to ask certain questions of certain jury members. The entire process just stinks. After all, this is supposedly a free country and people need to be free to say what they want and ask what they want. The kinds of restrictions imposed on the Jury members really kills most of the potential enjoyment of this show.

 

I guess it's an important lesson to learn. If the producer of a TV show gets decent rating, it doesn't matter what the audience wants. The network bosses are happy to let the producer do whatever they want. As long as the ratings meet or exceed some artificial level, the audience is expected to eat shit and pretend to enjoy it. Bottom line? It makes me want to give a giant "Fuck You" to the producers of this shit show.

Edited September 23, 2017 by MissBluxom

[LoneHaranguer]

18 hours ago, Nashville said:

Er... the voting order was "set" - as usual - by this season's order of evictions: the first evicted Juror (Cody) casts the first vote, 2nd evicted (Elena) votes next, etc.  

Votes were then revealed in reverse of the voting order - also as usual.

I guess I could have been clearer. I was just suggesting that the producers knew to a great extent (or possibly with certainty) the vote. If that meant that they could just go with what they've been doing for a reveal, great, but nothing says they had to if the voting were different (but the jury management process has some influence there).

[UniqBlue69]

1 hour ago, LoneHaranguer said:

I guess I could have been clearer. I was just suggesting that the producers knew to a great extent (or possibly with certainty) the vote. If that meant that they could just go with what they've been doing for a reveal, great, but nothing says they had to if the voting were different (but the jury management process has some influence there).

Of course the producers know how the vote turns out before the big reveal and I can't believe people would even question that. This is a television show, first and foremost, and their first priority will always be to make good tv, and what's better than wringing out the suspense in a 5-4 vote. Plus, Julie confirmed as much in an interview yesterday (I watched a lot of interviews yesterday so I don't remember which interview specifically). The jurors get two keys in their pouch and then return the unused key to the producers, which is how they determine who won before the votes are revealed.

Also, Julie will read out the votes that will lead to the most suspense. It just so happened that revealing the votes backwards in terms of elimination these past couple of seasons yielded the suspense they wanted. However, season 6 is my favorite season ever so I remember quite vividly that the vote for the winner came down to Howie. He was neither the first juror or the last so obviously the producers knew beforehand how the vote turned out and knew having Howie's key pulled last would create the most suspense and entertainment.

[Wings]

12 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I never watched live feeds, just watched the clip in the above post.  I'm no prude and I do swear at least once pretty much most days.... but so many F bombs in just general conversation!  It all seemed so juvenile.  

And strutting about with tutus and rubber duckies... cursing and swearing and yelling trying to win a point.  I dunno?  Is this what we become when cut off from normal daily life?  Have some self awareness people!  The cameras are 24/7.

Nah, we are like that in the live feed thread, too!  Lol. Probably not the place for you.  We get a contact high. 

[Pixel]

On 9/22/2017 at 4:23 PM, gunderda said:

But how would they know for Julie to read it backwards or not?? They don't tell BB who they're voting for beforehand.  

I think it was just dumb luck the vote came down to Cody. 

I'm sure there's  way Julie can tell what the votes are. They probably have a sensor in the box and production tells her in her ear what to do. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Pixel

[Porterest]

On 9/21/2017 at 4:49 AM, Cutty said:

The guy who lied in his goodbye messages because he was too scared to own his game called someone else cowardly. Paul really is a delusional little toad. 

Cody saying "I'm keeping my word" when he voted. Wonder what that was in reference to. Maybe a pact he made with Mark and Elena to not vote for Paul? 

An excellent finale for an otherwise dreadful season. 

Bring on Celebrity BB. 

I read an interview a while back where Julie had said that Cody would just randomly put one of the keys in the box because he didn’t care who won. So that’s what I thought he meant when he put his key in, which made it extra funny. I guess the promise to the jury shown in the interviews makes more sense, but it made watching those last few minutes so much more fun for me. 

[Tammee]

17 hours ago, UniqBlue69 said:

Of course the producers know how the vote turns out before the big reveal and I can't believe people would even question that. This is a television show, first and foremost, and their first priority will always be to make good tv, and what's better than wringing out the suspense in a 5-4 vote. Plus, Julie confirmed as much in an interview yesterday (I watched a lot of interviews yesterday so I don't remember which interview specifically). The jurors get two keys in their pouch and then return the unused key to the producers, which is how they determine who won before the votes are revealed.

Also, Julie will read out the votes that will lead to the most suspense. It just so happened that revealing the votes backwards in terms of elimination these past couple of seasons yielded the suspense they wanted. However, season 6 is my favorite season ever so I remember quite vividly that the vote for the winner came down to Howie. He was neither the first juror or the last so obviously the producers knew beforehand how the vote turned out and knew having Howie's key pulled last would create the most suspense and entertainment.

Same thing on Survivor.  Jeff always says 'I'll tally the votes'  code for suspensefully arranged hah

[Callaphera]

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

I'm sure there's  way Julie can tell what the votes are. They probably have a sensor in the box and production tells her in her ear what to do. 

Even more simple. The jury gets a zippered bag that contains two keys, one with Josh's name, one with Paul's. They put one in the box. After the vote is cast, the bags are handed off to production staff. All the staff has to do is open the bag, look to see which key remains, and make a tally. Julie either wears an earpiece or someone comes to whisper in her ear when she's not on camera. 

Don't forget, there's a fair amount of time between votes being cast and votes being shown. It doesn't take that long to wrangle that many zippered pouches and to count the keys. 

[Tammee]

On 9/22/2017 at 6:27 PM, Thalia said:

I say this every time I watch The Amazing Race and see someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick 

Or survivor, and didn't learn to swim

[Tammee]

20 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

This is the first time ever that I only watched BBAD once. (?) Wow was that worded poorly. What Im trying to say is that I watched the first night of BBAD and didnt bother to tune in again the whole rest of the season.  Never happened before.  I want a new house.  A new setting.

[Jel]

Clearly Paul played the "best game", but what he fails to understand is there is more to the game than just playing it.  You really need to factor in personalities -- that's where jury management comes in.  Each season you get a mix of people -- some will be bitter and some won't. Some of those bitter people will be influential, some won't. So, if you're running the game, you need to send people to jury in the right order, as some will need some time to process it and then come around to rewarding game play, and some will stay bitter.  He completely messed that up.

Paul thinks votes should be placed solely on "game play". That's a rather entitled position in my opinion -- it's a social game, and a part of winning (some years worse than others) is recognizing that people are people and adapting your game play to that.  Potential bitter jurors need to be sent out pre jury of at the very end, while they are still in shock.  But as a player, you need to take time to get to know people to assess how they will react.  Paul, like Dan in season 14, just expected people would vote for game play only. The fact that some juries do that does not mean that all juries will -- and knowing that and adapting your strategy to that is every bit as much of the game as is the puppet strings component.  

In another season, with a different jury, he may have won. But that's not at all relevant because he had this jury to sway.  His entitlement and arrogance earned him every bit of his loss.

Good day, Sir, and may you never darken the BB game again. You played yourself.

[jumper sage]

10 hours ago, Jel said:

In another season, with a different jury, he may have won. But that's not at all relevant because he had this jury to sway.  His entitlement and arrogance earned him every bit of his loss.

Good day, Sir, and may you never darken the BB game again. You played yourself.

I agree.  Just watched the ending again and caught a few things you all have been discussing.  Paul was very rude while Josh was giving his final speech.  Raven looked like an idiot at the end and I can't believe Paul let her hang on him and grope him like that.  YUCK!  She really is delusional, I mean really, really, delusional.  Had to laugh when Christmas was hanging all over Josh because he won.  Transparent much?

Just read a good recap here, the comments are pretty good too.

Edited September 25, 2017 by jumper sage

[mertensia]

Part of the whole thing with Paul, the snake and the racism is that his personality contributes to it. If, say, someone notably non-prejudiced (here I am thinking of Jimmy Carter) said or did something that, depending on how you look at it, could be construed as racist you'd take a step back and think "dude, it's X. Must have said/did it inadvertently without realizing how it'd sound". But with Paul, yeah. Not so much. Ugliness is a major part of his personality.

[Artsda]

13 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Even more simple. The jury gets a zippered bag that contains two keys, one with Josh's name, one with Paul's. They put one in the box. After the vote is cast, the bags are handed off to production staff. All the staff has to do is open the bag, look to see which key remains, and make a tally. Julie either wears an earpiece or someone comes to whisper in her ear when she's not on camera. 

Don't forget, there's a fair amount of time between votes being cast and votes being shown. It doesn't take that long to wrangle that many zippered pouches and to count the keys. 

This is it exactly.

Julie said in one of the finale interviews she & Production knew at commercial break after they voted who won, They got the bags of keys back and counted them over the break. She just didn't know who voted for who.

[Nashville]

21 hours ago, Jel said:

Clearly Paul played the "best game", but what he fails to understand is there is more to the game than just playing it.  You really need to factor in personalities -- that's where jury management comes in.  Each season you get a mix of people -- some will be bitter and some won't. Some of those bitter people will be influential, some won't. So, if you're running the game, you need to send people to jury in the right order, as some will need some time to process it and then come around to rewarding game play, and some will stay bitter.  He completely messed that up.

Clearly Paul didn't play the "best game" - yaknow, considering he LOST and all. ;>

No, I get what you're saying; Paul did play the best in-House strategic game this season of anybody.  Paul's social game was seriously lacking, though, and hIs Jury management (with all its attendant strategic/social ramifications) sucked rotten eggs to the point of being an active negative.

And I'm kinda surprised to discover the frequent "Paul played the best game" comments are turning into a really serious pet peeve for me - but that's my problem, not yours.  :)

 

21 hours ago, Jel said:

Paul thinks votes should be placed solely on "game play". That's a rather entitled position in my opinion -- it's a social game, and a part of winning (some years worse than others) is recognizing that people are people and adapting your game play to that.  Potential bitter jurors need to be sent out pre jury of at the very end, while they are still in shock.  But as a player, you need to take time to get to know people to assess how they will react.  Paul, like Dan in season 14, just expected people would vote for game play only. The fact that some juries do that does not mean that all juries will -- and knowing that and adapting your strategy to that is every bit as much of the game as is the puppet strings component.  

In another season, with a different jury, he may have won. But that's not at all relevant because he had this jury to sway.  His entitlement and arrogance earned him every bit of his loss.

Good day, Sir, and may you never darken the BB game again. You played yourself.

I agree 100% with this assessment.  What makes this doubly hilarious is Paul is asserting the exact same position as Russell Hantz.  After his second loss, Russell averred it was somehow "wrong" for Jurors to allow personal feelings to enter into their choice, and opined Juror votes should be based solely on appreciation for the strategic components of the player games in question.  To which Probst made a surprisingly astute (for Peachy, anyway) off-the-cuff observation which stuck with me, and which I will attempt to paraphrase here: the game Paul describes would be an interesting game indeed - but it wouldn't be Big Brother.

Maybe if Paul hadn't let his "returning vet" ego swell to the point of thinking he understood every possible ramification of BB despite having never watched a single season of the show,  he would have understood that.