S03.E02: Surrender

[Athena]

Quote

Hiding in an isolated cave, Jamie leads a lonely life until Lallybroch is threatened by redcoats pursuing the elusive Jacobite traitor known as “Red Jamie.” Back in Boston, Claire and Frank struggle to coexist in a marriage haunted by the ghost of Jamie’s love.

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[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Fergus, you sweetly loyal dumbass! I totally understand his anger at seeing the English soldiers harassing the only real family he's ever known, but he was so reckless mouthing off at them almost every chance he got. Sometimes you have to know when to hold your tongue.

But I suppose we needed a catalyst to finally snap Jamie out of his silent caveman phase, and seeing Fergus get his hand chopped off was what finally pushed him over the edge.

Since he slept with Mary, should I assume there's another redheaded baby on the way? I did find the parallel interesting with Mary and Claire trying to find someone to satisfy their sexual needs. The difference is that Mary was honest about it with Jamie whereas Claire was just using Frank to scratch an itch. If she were having the same problem now, I'd tell her to just get a vibrator. Although to be fair, before Claire instigated sex with Frank the first time, she did say she missed her husband. She just didn't specify which one!

Poor Jenny. It obviously broke her heart to let Jamie go through with his decision to be arrested. Loved how Ian willingly got dragged off again to protect Jamie earlier.

How is Jenny going to explain the presence of a baby now that she's told the soldiers that her baby died?

Very touching to see Fergus put a brave face on losing his hand by saying he's become a man of leisure.

I can't imagine the conversation that occurred before Claire and Frank got their twin beds. "Hey, remember when we started to have sex and it all went terribly awry because you were obviously fantasizing about the other guy you love? Well, as much as I love you and as much as I enjoy having sex, it's not enough for me to be your human dildo so I won't be servicing you any longer. To that end, I have installed two tiny beds in our room. We can still hang out and parent Brianna, but we're just going to be roommates who just happened to be married for the rest of our lives."

Heh, on a practical level, I thought if you're going to have separate beds, why bother sharing a room? Just have your own bedrooms and then you won't have to worry about who is staying up later and keeping the light on while the other person tries to go to sleep. If you're going to insist on staying in one room because you think that will fool your child into thinking you have a normal relationship with each other, at least get bigger beds so you can comfortably roll over!

Edited September 17, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[nara]

I liked the slowish pace of this episode, because we got to see more characterization.  However, the difference in time passing between Jamie's and Claire's segments was a little strange.  I guess I expected to see them both 1 year after separation or 6 years.

Poor Fergus!  It's not enough that they had him be raped--now he has to have his hand cut off? I really wonder if he would have been better off living in the brothel and never having met Jamie and Claire.  On the other hand, his reckless and stubborn behavior makes him truly the child of Jamie and Claire!  He is just like them! 

Also, he seemed a little nonchalant about having his hand cut off...  I wonder if they will CGI him for the rest of the series or if they will come up with a way to get around it like the Golden Hand on Game of Thrones.

I do think it's interesting that the English Redcoats were fairly decent, but it was the Scottish Redcoat who was more hostile and violent--perhaps resulting from his guilt in joining the English?  It would be interesting to explore the POV of Scots who worked with the Brits, but it's unlikely to happen on this show.

Is it just me, or has Fergus's accent changed?  Perhaps that was meant to convey the passing of 6 years since leaving France.  In that case, I wonder if it might have been better to get a new actor.  As much as I love this one, he looks too young to play a 17 year old.  

BTW, Jenny had another child.  I wish they had shown her (I think it was a girl.) in the background somewhere.

Although I think it was the right thing for Jenny to do to turn in Jamie, I felt awful that she was forced to play the bad guy.   She knows about the scourging and the rape.  She'll spend the foreseeable future terrified for her little brother's safety.  The actress is really excellent.  I think she could be lead on her own show.

While I don't think it's out of character for Jenny to arrange for sex for Jamie (she seems a little bossy), wouldn't it be super awkward if Mary got pregnant?  Nowadays, out of wedlock pregnancies are a dime a dozen, but surely that would have been a huge risk.  

I am totally digging Mary McNabb.  She seems kind and she restored hot Jamie to us.  I'd be okay with Jamie marrying her.  We know that for at least 20 years (based on Briana's age) he won't see Claire again.  I  think he deserves a normalish life, even if she isn't his soulmate.  I think he would be a good father and it would be a pity if he didn't get to raise children.

I do like Claire and Frank having a fairly normal life (including sex) but I was just as annoyed as Frank that she was basically trying to use him.  I was really sorry to see it end in separate beds--even though we already knew that they were not a happy couple.

Claire's voiceover annoyed me a little--not as a device, but the content.  "I had been able to love a man and be part of something bigger than myself." Excuse me, but you've done that TWICE.  You loved Frank before going back in time AND you helped defeat the Nazis!  It pisses me off that she has forgotten that.  I get Jamie's behavior--she has been his only love.  But she should know that you can love more than once in a lifetime, even if only one of them is your soulmate.

Like @ElectricBoogaloo, the separate beds made no sense to me.  You can sleep in a bed with someone and not have sex,.  But twin beds seems to be 1) a waste of money since you already had a bed and 2) not fooling anyone.

I like that Claire started attending medical school and had a fellow outcast like Joe Abernathy.  She literally looked brighter (more luminous) in that class because she's the sort of person who thrives on learning and working.  I wonder what was considered worse by their fellow students, a black man or a woman?  I'm guessing, a woman.  I laughed when Joe walked into class and was visibly surprised that no one was staring at him because they were busy staring at Claire!  I did get an immediate reminder of Ellis Grey and Richard Webber from Grey's Anatomy, who I believe were in a similar position of being the only woman and black man in their med school.  I hope they won't have an affair, though, because it would annoy me if she could fall for another guy, but not Frank.

I do think it's cool that despite being a slower episode, I clearly had a lot to think about and express here....

Edited September 17, 2017 by nara

[Ziggy]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

How is Jenny going to explain the presence of a baby now that she's told the soldiers that her baby died?

I was wondering about this, too.  Do you think she could say that the baby suddenly started breathing as Mary was taking him away to be buried?  She did have the foresight to tell someone to dig a grave.

[leighdear]

The soldiers were there to capture Jamie, they had no reason to go back in the house & see that there was a baby there.  And they could always say that it was Mary's baby.  She's just a housemaid, they'd have no reason to question her more about the baby, it's age or it's father. 

I'm glad they pulled back on showing a 3rd sex scene, the episode between Jamie & Mary.  Two in a single episode is enough.  I'm not looking to watch "50 Shades of Outlander".  

I thought it was a good episode overall.  But when the teacher said about his class composition "A woman and a negro", my first thought was "Claire doesn't look like a negro".   Poorly constructed line. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Was this episode an hour long?  I didn't look at the runtime.  It seemed to go by pretty fast, despite the fact that I wasn't very interested in it.  I mean, let's face it, until the inevitable reunion (since we saw at the end of S2, Claire say she had to go back) these episodes are pretty much filler,  Some interesting filler, but filler nonetheless.

Hey, was that the buck from the opening sequence that Jamie killed?  Bad luck- that guy had survived two seasons already.  

I always heard that killing a raven was bad luck, not just seeing one.  And, as it turns out, I was right.  

I'm amazed that Brianna could move at all in that huge diaper.  I did like that pram, though.  

"I missed my husband."  I don't think Claire missed 'her' husband so much as she just missed having 'a' husband.  Seems any one will do.  In the past (Past past) she moved on from Frank pretty quickly.  At least she seems to be having a harder time moving on from Jamie.  I suppose that's to show us that she and Jamie really are Twu Luv.  

Meanwhile in the Past, Fergus probably would have actually bled out and died from having his hand cut off, even with Jamie applying a makeshift tourniquet.  Especially since "I saw Milady do it once" doesn't mean he knows how to do it properly.  

Jenny is way too interested in Jamie's sex life.  Geez.  The man's in hiding and wanted by the law, but sure he needs to get remarried and have kids.  Put that right on his to-do list.  

Of course Joe and Claire would bond - that's not really the word I want, but for lack of a better one right now- both as outcasts.  Still, Joe seems nice.  He's got a nice smile.  

The voice over was startling.  Was there a voice over at all last episode?  I'd gotten so used to not hearing one, it was weird to have it start up again.  This episode was very much more from Claire's POV, even with the Lallybroch scenes.  There was much less focus on Frank and making him as sympathetic as the first episode, it seemed.  

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, leighdear said:

But when the teacher said about his class composition "A woman and a negro", my first thought was "Claire doesn't look like a negro".

Ha. I actually was hoping the African-American student was someone historically important. I'm assuming the Claire and Jamie reunion isn't until the season finale, so in the meantime, it would be interesting if Claire was involved with some historical events. 

59 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 I mean, let's face it, until the inevitable reunion (since we saw at the end of S2, Claire say she had to go back) these episodes are pretty much filler,  Some interesting filler, but filler nonetheless.

I don't get the narrative direction this season. I mean, I'm not so much that Claire/Jamie are OTP because I would be interested in a character study of how a woman could be in love with two men, and how one of them is accepting of that. But its doesn't seem like that's what this show is about. In last season finale, Claire was like, "I'M GOING BACK". Ok, you have a daughter, and you've clearly lived with Frank for 20 years, and he's seemingly raised your child from another man, but that was completely wiped out in the finale. 

Frank saying, "could you at least look at me?" was tough. I don't want this season to also paint Claire in a poor light either. It's ok to love two men, and I think Frank wanted to make that work. 

I don't know what kind of monster chops off a teen boy's hand for being a teen boy, but I hope he gets his. Obviously, we're all aware that Jamie makes it to "1968" when Claire comes back, but what kind of hollowed out man is he going to be having to go through this? I'm not really seeing how 10 more hours of show of Jamie being beat down is going to be particularly entertaining. If you're in prison, you escape. So how is that different from what was going on in this episode? If you don't escape, then you're just in prison. What's he going to be doing for the next 8 episodes?

I did like how Mary was like, "let's just fuck." "It's been a while." "So?" 

[HunterHunted]

Claire missed her husband alright, her husband Jamie.

Fergus is so dumb and reckless. Even if he hadn't lost his hand, his taunting was only going to escalate tensions between the English and the people he thinks he's protecting.

[NorthstarATL]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Of course Joe and Claire would bond - that's not really the word I want, but for lack of a better one right now- both as outcasts.  Still, Joe seems nice.  He's got a nice smile.  

It was so obvious, and then I thought back to what I have read about the history of that period, and I thought it was extremely foolish. They SHOULD bond, especially if they are ostracized as the course progresses, but initially they both should have kept their distances. Joe doesn't know enough about Claire to know that she was as enlightened as she was, but he would probably know that, sadly, appearing to be "hitting on", for that period, a white woman (who happens to be married, though he couldn't know that as yet) is something that society did not look approvingly upon. I recall reminding my fellow gays, during the push for gay marriage, that it was insulting to interracial marrieds of the past to compare our "struggle" with theirs. They COULD be jailed, or worse, for intermarrying, where ours were just not recognized by the Government (which has its perks).

  Sad to see Jamie turn himself in, but it was noble, and hopefully the redcoats will lay off the 'brook now.

 Jamie, BTW, was lit beautifully in that scene with Mary.

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Heh, on a practical level, I thought if you're going to have separate beds, why bother sharing a room? Just have your own bedrooms and then you won't have to worry about who is staying up later and keeping the light on while the other person tries to go to sleep. If you're going to insist on staying in one room because you think that will fool your child into thinking you have a normal relationship with each other, at least get bigger beds so you can comfortably roll over!

I actually knew people whose parents had single beds! The way I understood it, it had to do with space, and not being able to have separate bedrooms, but that every now and again the beds would be pushed together. I still don't get it, because in college we did the pushing together of the single beds, and it's dangerous, unless you somehow lash them together so that nothing separates them! Then, again, these were not particularly athletic looking people.

Edited September 18, 2017 by NorthstarATL
I cant type.

[WInterfalls]

1 hour ago, NorthstarATL said:

I actually knew people whose parents had single beds! The way I understood it, it had to do with space, and not being able to have separate bedrooms, but that every now and again the beds would be pushed together.

My dad told me his parents had twin beds when he was a kid and they didn't seem to have a loveless marriage. It was just the fashion of the time. He said after he went away to military school in the early 60s they got a double and he was absolutely scandalized. 

[Daisy]

Scotland Bits:
Nooooo. Fergus's hand! (also. okay. what? like what the hell is that thought process. this little kid insults me so i'm going to like chop his hand off and leave him to die?). Honestly though i was more thinking there was going to be another rape (which would have been just as bad). or that Jamie would snap out of his somewhat fugue state and save Fergus. 

Where was Margaret? No mention of her at all. 

so Jamie becomes basically a hermit/mountain man barely coming out to talk or anything and acting like he's dead. the Mary scene was really heart breaking because he's craving the intimacy that we all need but he's still very committed to Claire mentally. A huge part of it too  and we see it with the baby - He lost both Claire and the baby. He has nothing of his family at all that he created (and - it wouldn't surprise me there's a little Faith mourning in there too, because we didn't really see him mourn for Faith in Season 2). For Jamie  - he's basically tortured with not knowing what happened period to Claire + Baby.. at least Claire at the core of her being knows that Jamie is "dead" She just grieves that she was taken away from him too soon. 

 

Jenny is awesome. That is all. 

And still no Murtgah. (he didn't die, did he?)

 

Boston Parts:
I couldn't tell with the first scene, was Claire pleasuring herself or just giving herself mental orgasms with visions of Jamie's naked bottom dancing in her head? I do have to say when Frank walked down in a towel, and she touched him and Frank was all like "okay. don't move.. don't breathe... if I acknowledge it, it might even fly away." regarding Claire's hand - it makes me wonder at that point - how old Briana is at that point - and how often Claire actively touched Frank (though you always get the sense that she was letting Frank touch her more). 

But I wonder if the first time in bed, was the first time since basically Inverness for Frank + Claire. Frank still had this whole. "wait. What?!" reaction to Claire climbing on him. And I can't even tell a lie - both times, I legitimately thought Claire was going to end up screaming Jamie's name or something and that's when/where Frank would lose it. but the subtleness of it being Frank realising that Claire had her eyes closed and why she had her eyes closed was so much more heartbreaking and better than an "Ohh Jamie" ever could have portrayed. 

 

wasn't two beds a product of that time period?  (I mean I get they were going for the visual and it pretty much broke down that whatever Frank felt for Claire sexually - is like pretty much over after that night, even though they are clearly still respectful to one another) - but the two beds bit didn't confuse me though (probably more how/when they got to that point. it would have been nice to just have seen that conversation). 

 

[riverheightsnancy]

6 hours ago, WInterfalls said:

My dad told me his parents had twin beds when he was a kid and they didn't seem to have a loveless marriage. It was just the fashion of the time. He said after he went away to military school in the early 60s they got a double and he was absolutely scandalized. 

Yes, the twin beds were common during this time period. The movie A Christmas Story is set during this period, and they show twin beds. If memory serves there was a depiction of that (or away from that) on the Lucy show as well.  It had to do with the burgeoning acceptance of science! See this salon article:  http://www.salon.com/2012/08/14/separate_beds_are_liberating/  The 6 year leap was jarring and if Bree was born at the beginning of that stretch, than the baby's development is WAY off.  I wish that there had been more of a lead-in to the time jump. 

[Pallas]

20 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

The 6 year leap was jarring and if Bree was born at the beginning of that stretch, than the baby's development is WAY off.  I wish that there had been more of a lead-in to the time jump. 

The two stories -- Claire's and Jamie's -- seem to have independent timeframes. Last week, Jamie's narrative took place almost entirely within 24 hours of the battle, while Claire's took place over about half a year, judging by her state of pregnancy. In this episode, Jamie's story started six years later -- six years he and his family lived on a tapeloop -- while Claire's story picked up shortly after Brianna's birth. We don't know how long the gap was between then, Claire's decision to go to medical school, and her then applying for/acceptance into Harvard Med. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 hours ago, nara said:

Is it just me, or has Fergus's accent changed?  Perhaps that was meant to convey the passing of 6 years since leaving France.  In that case, I wonder if it might have been better to get a new actor.  As much as I love this one, he looks too young to play a 17 year old.  

I thought it had changed as well - gotten a little more Scottish, although I could still hear the French strongly at times also.  That makes sense to me, since as a young boy, he would have been more likely to pick up the Scots pronunciations and colloquialisms being fully immersed in the culture the way he's been.  I didn't realize he was supposed to be 17 in this episode though.  I guess I didn't really think about his age.  

21 hours ago, nara said:

I do like Claire and Frank having a fairly normal life (including sex) but I was just as annoyed as Frank that she was basically trying to use him.  I was really sorry to see it end in separate beds--even though we already knew that they were not a happy couple.

Something that I hadn't thought about too much until after this episode: when Claire first came back to her Present, she was only, what?  3-4 months pregnant?  At which time she agreed to try to make the marriage with Frank work.  So she spent 5-6 months pregnant (with crazy libido pregnancy hormones) 'married' to Frank, but they haven't had sex, not once, until several months after Brianna was born?  Damn - Frank really is practically a martyr here.  Add on top, that he apparently didn't get involved with anyone during her three year absence - and it makes me wonder if he actually was unfaithful during the war as was speculated during S1.   Maybe that line back in the first or second ep, about forgiving Claire if she'd been unfaithful was because he knows how she is.  

That is, from what I've seen of Claire and Frank's relationship, it seems like Claire is pretty much in charge of their sex life.  That could be for many reasons: maybe she has a stronger libido than he does or he's just happy to let her take the reigns.  But in S1, in the hotel, Claire initiates sex.  When they are touring the ruins and Claire sits on the table, she initiates sex.  And now in this episode, both times, it's Claire who initiates sex.  

21 hours ago, nara said:

Claire's voiceover annoyed me a little--not as a device, but the content.  "I had been able to love a man and be part of something bigger than myself." Excuse me, but you've done that TWICE.  You loved Frank before going back in time AND you helped defeat the Nazis!  It pisses me off that she has forgotten that.

Thank you for pointing this out!  I knew there was something else about that voice over that bothered me, but couldn't figure out what it was.  This is it.  That, 'being a part of something bigger than myself' completely ignores her time as a combat nurse in WWII, I think, since it seems like it was made to remind us of her time with Jamie and Culloden and that be the reason for her to go to Med school at the end.  

Also, given the times, and the patriarchy/misogyny the show has already demonstrated - as a married woman, would Claire have had to get her husband's permission to enroll in Med school?  I think Frank deserves some credit for going along with it - especially back then when women of her station (professor's wife!) were expected to all be stay at home mothers/wives.  

21 hours ago, nara said:

Like @ElectricBoogaloo, the separate beds made no sense to me.  You can sleep in a bed with someone and not have sex,.  But twin beds seems to be 1) a waste of money since you already had a bed and 2) not fooling anyone.

I think they were Frank's idea.  Maybe he just couldn't stand sleeping next to her anymore, knowing she kept thinking of Jamie.  And to that end: it was pretty inconsiderate of Claire to masturbate to Jamie's memory while lying right next to Frank in bed - when they haven't had sex since she got back.  Geez.  She's home alone all day - could she have not satisfied her urges when he wasn't in the house?

As for not fooling anyone - well, I don't guess most people would see their bed room.  As for Brianna - well, she'll still be young enough for several years to be fool.  And from watching I Love Lucy reruns, Lucy and Ricky had separate twin beds, so maybe she would think that was just normal?

Just realized several other people have already posted about the twin beds, so sorry for any redundancy!

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

Obviously, we're all aware that Jamie makes it to "1968" when Claire comes back, but what kind of hollowed out man is he going to be having to go through this? I'm not really seeing how 10 more hours of show of Jamie being beat down is going to be particularly entertaining. If you're in prison, you escape. So how is that different from what was going on in this episode? If you don't escape, then you're just in prison. What's he going to be doing for the next 8 episodes?

I don't think they're going to wait until the season finale for the reunion.  I don't think they can.   Surely, there's not enough filler there.  But maybe they will.  It just seems like an odd choice to me after last season's ending to make the viewer wait all season for the spoilered reunion.  And to be honest, it will tick me off if they do that.  

8 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

It was so obvious, and then I thought back to what I have read about the history of that period, and I thought it was extremely foolish. They SHOULD bond, especially if they are ostracized as the course progresses, but initially they both should have kept their distances. Joe doesn't know enough about Claire to know that she was as enlightened as she was, but he would probably know that, sadly, appearing to be "hitting on", for that period, a white woman (who happens to be married, though he couldn't know that as yet) is something that society did not look approvingly upon.

This is a very good point about a black man befriending an upper class white woman - especially a married woman - during that time period.  Even Claire should have probably been more distant.  I mean, yes, England outlawed slavery before the US, but it's not like there weren't racial tensions and divides over there either.  

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think they're going to wait until the season finale for the reunion.  I don't think they can.

No, in hindsight, I don't think they will either. However, Jamie will still have lived what kind of life up until then? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

for not fooling anyone - well, I don't guess most people would see their bed room.  As for Brianna - well, she'll still be young enough for several years to be fool.  And from watching I Love Lucy reruns, Lucy and Ricky had separate twin beds, so maybe she would think that was just normal?

Lucy and Ricky slept in separate beds as a result of the Hays Code bleeding into television's morality police. Until that conservative bullshit was finally ditched, there were very strict rules in the production code about things like married couples having separate beds onscreen. Kisses could last only three seconds and a couple had to keep at least two (of the four total) feet on the ground. 

For the record, what people do in their bedrooms is their business so if separate beds work for some people, more power to them. My bigger issue is that even if I decided to have my own bed, it would be bigger than a twin! Ha, the hilarious thing is that even though I say I want a huge bed, Mr. EB said I always end up taking up the same tiny amount of space no matter what size bed we're in when we travel. 

10 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

every now and again the beds would be pushed together. I still don't get it, because in college we did the pushing together of the single beds, and it's dangerous, unless you somehow lash them together so that nothing separates them!

I would be afraid that I'd roll over into the crack and my body weight would push the two beds apart and I'd end up falling through the crack and hitting the floor!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Lucy and Ricky slept in separate beds as a result of the Hays Code bleeding into television's morality police. Until that conservative bullshit was finally ditched, there were very strict rules in the production code about things like married couples having separate beds onscreen. Kisses could last only three seconds and a couple had to keep at least two (of the four total) feet on the ground.

My point was that Brianna likely wouldn't know about any television codes or standards growing up.  I certainly didn't.  And if this is what she watched on television as 'normal' then likely she would not think anything odd about there being twin beds in her parents' bedroom either.  

9 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I would be afraid that I'd roll over into the crack and my body weight would push the two beds apart and I'd end up falling through the crack and hitting the floor!

This!  Lol.  Especially if they were on casters.  (I seem to remember having a twin bed frame growing up that had casters.  It wasn't easy to roll, but then I had it pushed up against a corner wall too.)

31 minutes ago, ganesh said:

No, in hindsight, I don't think they will either. However, Jamie will still have lived what kind of life up until then? 

True.  I guess we get to see a lot of his life in prison since that's where he's headed.  Yay!  That should be fun and entertaining television! //snark.  

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Lucy and Ricky slept in separate beds as a result of the Hays Code bleeding into television's morality police. Until that conservative bullshit was finally ditched, there were very strict rules in the production code about things like married couples having separate beds onscreen. Kisses could last only three seconds and a couple had to keep at least two (of the four total) feet on the ground. 

Of course it changed when it was picked up and aired, but the opening shot of the original pilot of I Love Lucy is Lucy and Ricky sleeping in the same bed.

[TaurusRose]

On 9/17/2017 at 4:04 PM, leighdear said:

I thought it was a good episode overall.  But when the teacher said about his class composition "A woman and a negro", my first thought was "Claire doesn't look like a negro".   Poorly constructed line. 

There wasn't anything wrong with the way the sentence was constructed. I understood he was talking about two different people. 

[jcin617]

12 hours ago, ganesh said:

No, in hindsight, I don't think they will either. However, Jamie will still have lived what kind of life up until then? 

That's assuming of course the same amount of time passes for Jamie as has passed for Claire.   (Boy, it's hard to pick the right tenses to use when you're talking about time passing in separate time lines!)  

[BusyOctober]

I'm starting to really dislike Claire.  Maybe it's because I'm not a hopeless romantic?  I just don't get the "one true love" and all other loves will never compare.  As someone stated, when we first meet Frank & Claire, they seemed very much in love & attracted to each other.  OK, she goes back in time, meets Jamie & falls in love.  But she seems to hate Frank for not being Jamie.  Not his fault!  And if the theory is that Claire can't look at Frank without thinking of his cruel ancestor, Black Jack, then that is too small minded (IMO).  When she got back to Frank she should have told him she couldn't be with him anymore and gone their separate ways.

[abbey]

34 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

I'm starting to really dislike Claire.  Maybe it's because I'm not a hopeless romantic?  I just don't get the "one true love" and all other loves will never compare.  As someone stated, when we first meet Frank & Claire, they seemed very much in love & attracted to each other.  OK, she goes back in time, meets Jamie & falls in love.  But she seems to hate Frank for not being Jamie.  Not his fault!  And if the theory is that Claire can't look at Frank without thinking of his cruel ancestor, Black Jack, then that is too small minded (IMO).  When she got back to Frank she should have told him she couldn't be with him anymore and gone their separate ways.

As far as as the two of them going their separate ways I can understand why Clarie did not do that.  My understanding is that divorce was somewhat scandalous back then, and perhaps she wanted to avoid that for Brianna's sake.  She also knew that Jamie was sending her back with the understanding that Frank would look after her and the child.  So by staying with Frank she was respecting Jamie's wishes.  imho of course.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

53 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

I'm starting to really dislike Claire.  Maybe it's because I'm not a hopeless romantic?  I just don't get the "one true love" and all other loves will never compare.  As someone stated, when we first meet Frank & Claire, they seemed very much in love & attracted to each other.  OK, she goes back in time, meets Jamie & falls in love.  But she seems to hate Frank for not being Jamie.  Not his fault!  And if the theory is that Claire can't look at Frank without thinking of his cruel ancestor, Black Jack, then that is too small minded (IMO).  When she got back to Frank she should have told him she couldn't be with him anymore and gone their separate ways.

I'm all for 'one true love'.  It's just that, after Season 2, Jamie and Claire don't embody that for me anymore.  After Season 1, yes.  But not now.  They didn't seem particularly close most of last season so....  

I have to wonder how much Claire ever really loved Frank.  She didn't seem to think about him much after she married Jamie - except for wanting to make sure he was born.  But that doesn't say "I really loved Frank" to me.  It's more that Frank isn't a hot, buff, kinda wild, young highlander with a libido to match her own that she seems to hold against her first husband.  

I don't know if it was really so scandalous to divorce back in those times or not.  To an extent, yes, I think it was.  But I think it also depended upon one's social status and how one comported themselves after the divorce.  As long as Claire wasn't out swinging all the time, she would have been perfectly fine.  I know I've watched old movies from the 30's and 40's where the socialites were divorced and no one particularly thought less of them.  Promise to Jamie or not, Claire could have hired a nanny for the baby and gone back to work as a nurse and made a fine living.  

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, BusyOctober said:

Maybe it's because I'm not a hopeless romantic?  I just don't get the "one true love" and all other loves will never compare.

I'm not either. I think it's far more interesting if Claire were genuinely in love with both of them. It's not Frank's fault that he looks like BJR, but he also doesn't know that either. It's not really Claire's fault either, but I think she does bear somewhat of the burden to get over that. If she never does, that's not her fault either, but using your current husband as a human dildo isn't going to be helping anyone either. 

My concern is that the show is going to make Frank "bad" at the expense of promoting Jamie so that by the time he dies, we're all rooting for Claire to reunite. 

To Claire's credit, she doesn't think about going back to the stones until after Frank died, so there is that. On the other hand, she was completely gleeful at the end of S2 about going back. I would think it might be a harder decision than that.

[BusyOctober]

I guess I meant by "going their separate ways" I was thinking Frank could move on with his career (prof @ Harvard) and Claire could have raised the child on her own in the England or France or wherever. She could have moped along the moors, pining for Jamie in Scotland.   If divorce was too shameful/scandalous, she could have easily said she was a war widow, and her husband died...just update the story she created for herself as Claire Beecham in the 1740's.

  In any case, I am still vested enough in the scenery and the other characters to keep watching.  I just am not a Claire fan so far this season.

[ganesh]

To be fair, at the time of her return, Claire was way messed up, and Frank was offering to remain married and raise a child not his own. That security is a big draw. 

At this point though, she is taking advantage of his feelings for her, and that's not fair. 

[toolazy]

9 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

I'm starting to really dislike Claire.  Maybe it's because I'm not a hopeless romantic?  I just don't get the "one true love" and all other loves will never compare.  As someone stated, when we first meet Frank & Claire, they seemed very much in love & attracted to each other.  OK, she goes back in time, meets Jamie & falls in love.  But she seems to hate Frank for not being Jamie.  Not his fault!  And if the theory is that Claire can't look at Frank without thinking of his cruel ancestor, Black Jack, then that is too small minded (IMO).  When she got back to Frank she should have told him she couldn't be with him anymore and gone their separate ways.

 

Keep in mind that she isn't simply recovering from leaving someone she loves.  She left that someone to die in a war! A war that she had participated in and had probably cost the lives of a lot of other people that she cared for.  Then boom! she's back in the 20th century.  It's natural that she would have a certain amount of whiplash and PTSD.  

That said, she is nastier to Frank than she needs to be.

[thesparkinside]

To jump is a little late on this, I note that upthread someone said the actor for Young Fergus was too young to play 16/17, but actually the actor, Romann Berrux, turned 16 this year (according to IMBD)!

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, thesparkinside said:

To jump is a little late on this, I note that upthread someone said the actor for Young Fergus was too young to play 16/17, but actually the actor, Romann Berrux, turned 16 this year (according to IMBD)!

Yes, but I believe he was 14 when they were filming those sequences. 

[Juliegirlj]

Rewatched season three last night. I hate to nitpick, but, it is obvious the writers have never been pregnant, nor has Catriona.... Claire's pregnancy is portrayed over the top. Real pregnant woman do not walk around holding their back and wiping their brow.... 

i did enjoy the season so far as a whole. Love the sixties fashion, makeup, decor, etc...

[bettername2come]

Look, show, I'm going to need horrible things to stop happening to Fergus. Although, I was happy to see the same actor, even if he doesn't look six years older. With the time jump, I thought they would recast.

[kwnyc]

And, I have to ask, what where is Jenny's SECOND child, young Maggie? The one Claire helped her birth? No girl around anywhere? Easier to have a bunch of boys running around? Though Jenny said SHE used to follow Willie and Jamie everywhere.

[Camera One]

I know Fergus wants to help, but boy, it sure was frustrating to see him making everything worse.  Does there need to be something traumatizing to watch in every episode?  I did not enjoy seeing his hand cut off.

I agree with the above comment that it was strange they did a 6-year jump in the 1700s but just continued on in the 1940s.  It was a strange choice since the actor who played Fergus was clearly not 6 years older.  I know they wanted us to know that Jaime couldn't move on sexually from Claire for years, but it was a bit much.  And yet they didn't feel they needed to give Claire as much time?  

Plus that beret hardly hid his red hair.  Every heard of cutting it?  Couldn't they bring the ledgers to his cave, instead of having him walk in and out of the estate?  He could do farmwork at night or something.

I am interested to see Claire and the African American in medical school.  I hope every guy in med school isn't sexist and racist.

I agree with one of the above points that it would have been more interesting if Claire did have more feeling towards Frank.  I know she is still adjusting, but there's this coldness and indifference that I don't think existed in the first half of Season 1 before she married Jaime.  

I'm not looking forward to a few episodes of "Prison Break", which is likely what will happen.  I'm assuming we will get to see Murtagh soon.  In the season finale, they mentioned a few Frasers were imprisoned in the Tower of London but one escaped before execution and it was implied that might be Jaime.  But it's been 6 years, so I am assuming that happened already...

[gingerella]

Wow, that was the saddest hour of television I've watched in a very long time. Jamie was just a shell of a man, six years since he vanquished the evil from his life, but six years since the love of his life went away, and seemingly forever. But before I say more I have to say something, the HAIR & MAKEUP people should be fired because Jamie's hair and makeup was ATROCIOUSLY bad. Like, Monty Python's version of a destitute Highlander living in the woods of Scotland. It was so bad that I felt taken out of the moment every time I looked at him. Gah!

SCOTLAND:

Okay, it was nice to see Fergus with the other boys there, so we know he's safe, but you can tell that he's missing Claire and Jamie too since he's basically checked out, living in Better Caves and Forests. Jamie's non verbal thing felt more like PTSD and deep, deep grief, the sort you never get over. He doesn't just not look like our Jamie, he doesn't FEEL like our Jamie, and that was damn sad to watch.

When Ian is talking to Jamie about Fergus losing his hand, but Jamie lost his heart/Claire, that was like a FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT moment. I wonder if that was the first time in the books that someone acknowledged that or if they'd been trying to talk him through his pain all those six years. But it felt like that talk and Fergus's run in with the redcoats finally jolted Jamie back into himself again, at least what little there was of him in that moment. When he said to Fergus, "You remind me I have something to live for", it was both heartening and sad as hell, his voice was back to the voice we know, but you could tell he was nearly empty inside. His talk with Fergus was sweet and sad at the same time, and Fergus is always trying to help him in his own Fergus way....but when he was taunting the redcoats I couldn't help but think he's got a bit of Claire in him, what with shooting his mouth off at the wrong times and getting himself into trouble. I did love how Jamie sprung into action putting Fergus's arm into a tourniquet, he learned that from Claire, so she is sort of with him in that moment and I liked that, it felt comforting in that moment. And when Mary went to bring him food in his cave and offered herself to him, I was thinking, DON'T DO IT, but I did appreciate her saying how she saw how it was between him and Claire and that wasn't what she was trying to offer...it was the saddest sex scene/prelude that I think I have ever seen, like ever. The tears falling down his face when he was struggling to kiss her, it felt like he didn't want to in his heart, but he was trying to connect with another human being and maybe remember what it felt like to be with Claire even though this could never be that. It was human connection on such a basic and primal level, and it was just sad sad sad. But unlike creepy Leery, Mary was trying to be humane to both Jamie and herself and I can appreciate her for her sensitivity to him and the moment. On the one hand I wish we'd seen a bit more of the after, and on the other hand I'm glad we didn't because it wasn't about sex or love, it was just simply about human survival of the spirit. And old Jamie was back when he cooked up the plan to give himself up, but the money reward money shouldn't go to waste. Poor Jenny, she's got a lot to handle and way too many bairns to boot. Those two need some birth control!

BOSTON:

It was jarring how Claire seemed positively happy with Brianna when Frank wasn't home, but as soon as he was there it was...awkward. Claire dreams of Jamie, it's the only place she can be with him now, and she's definitely not going to get over him if she's still in this state. The looks between Claire and Frank make it seem like they haven't had sex yet since she got back. And I have to say, Frank is being more gentlemanly and understanding that most men would be. I have not been quiet about my Frank dislike, but in this episode I felt for him, finally. When Claire initiates sex with him after their guests leave, and as they fell to the floor in front of the fire, I couldn't help but think of the scene at Castle Leoch, where they are on the floor by the fire after they make up from the riverside fight, and I kept expecting Claire to say 'Oh Jamie!' but she didn't, she didn't have to though because Frank knows that she's imagining Jamie when she's with Frank. When he says, 'When I'm with you, I'm with you, but you're with him", I finally felt bad for him. He cannot win. Every time Claire seems like she's gravitating towards him, she pulls herself back, she can't let go with Frank because that would mean admitting Jamie is gone. And since she doesn't say goodbye to her soldier until she goes to Culloden in 1968, she's still holding on to Jamie's memory, even though she promised him she wouldn't  - and he's doing the same thing in his own time. Sad sad sad.

I was happy to see Claire going to medical school though, she looked happy and she said exactly what I thought - that she had had a purpose in her life with Jamie beyond being his wife, she was a great healer, and becoming a doctor would be a way to keep that part of her life with Jamie still alive in her own time. It is a way to honor their life together in a way that she doesn't have to explain to anyone, not even Frank, she - and we - know why she's becoming a doctor, and it will give her something to throw herself into now, beyond being a mother.

Sad as hell episode though, all around. Even the happier bits were bittersweet.

ETA: Another thought about Jamie...it’s as if he wanted to die at Culloden and now that he hasn’t, he doesn’t know what to do because he assumed he would die that day. When he’s laying on the battlefield looking around it’s as if he’s trying to figure out if he is dead or alive. Then when he’s bright home to Lallybroch, the first thing he asks Jenny is “am I dead?” He can not fathom that he survived Culloden. After all the build up to it, and assuming he would die on that battlefield, he has no game plan now for “what next?” He is a broken man without Claire to heal him, and he cannot kill himself because we know from his reaction to Colum’s death, he believes taking ones life is a mortal sin, so he is right and truly stuck with no place to go so he’s just allowing himself to whither away...until the Fergus incident, which jolts him into at  least giving himself up so he can stop running from the one thing he can control, his surrender. He can’t get to Claire and assumes he will never see his beloved again, but at least he can free his family from persecution by taking his punishment, whatever it may be.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

What I loved in these episodes(301-304) was the common theme, instead of a same timeline. I will say that the first time I watched this one I too thought it was the most depressing  hour of tv, but on rewatch I have come to appreciate it more. Jamie is physically strong but not emotionally strong without Claire! And Claire throws herself into work instead of family, I don’t think they knew how hard it would be? 

[Anothermi]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

Another thought about Jamie...it’s as if he wanted to die at Culloden and now thwt he hasn’t, he doesn’t know what to do because he assumed he would die that day. When he’s laying on the battlefield looking around it’s as if he’s trying to figure out if he is dead or alive. Then when he’s bright home to Lallybroch, the first thing he asks Jenny is “am I dead?” He can not fathom that he survived Culloden. After all the build up to it, and assuming he would die on that battlefield, he has no game plan now for “what next?” He is a broken man without Claire to heal him, and he cannot kill himself becasue we know from his reaction to Colum’s death, he believes taking ones life is a mortal sin, so he is right and truly stuck with no place to go so he’s just allowing himself to whither away...until the Fergus incident, which jolts him into at  least giving himself up so he can stop running from the one thing he can control, his surrender. He can’t get to Claire and assumes he will never see his beloved again, but at least he can free his family from persecution by taking his punishment, whatever it may be.

Yes to this! Surviving Culloden wasn't on his "To Do" list. It was clear last episode that he wanted to die. He volunteered to face the firing squad right after Rupert did. That pesky John Grey's Debt of Honour couldn't have come at a worse time as far as Jamie was concerned. 

He has no plan to take him forward after Culloden—and no one to make a new plan with. 

On 3/22/2021 at 1:51 PM, Camera One said:

I know Fergus wants to help, but boy, it sure was frustrating to see him making everything worse.  Does there need to be something traumatizing to watch in every episode?  I did not enjoy seeing his hand cut off.

Arg! I was initially happy to see Fergus but he didn't know what to do with himself—except be dangerously cocky. He wanted to be loyal to Jamie, but was still too young to understand he was creating suspicion. I had to stop watching  when he headed out of Lallybroch so soon after the Red Coats left  because  I thought he was going to end up leading  them right to Jamie.

So I slept on it. The actual story was not much better, but at least it brought Jamie out of himself. Finally Jamie paid attention to Fergus—which is all that he really wanted. 

On 3/22/2021 at 1:51 PM, Camera One said:

It was a strange choice since the actor who played Fergus was clearly not 6 years older.

That was truly a head scratcher.  I was able to do a bunch of hand waving to get over it, but... ???

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Ian is talking to Jamie about Fergus losing his hand, but Jamie lost his heart/Claire, that was like a FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT moment.

Ian! That man is a gem. Never says too much, never too little... Just what needs to be said. He's this show's unsung hero. He was the one who let us know that the British were no longer executing the Jacobites. THAT was good to know. 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

And old Jamie was back when he cooked up the plan to give himself up, but the money reward money shouldn't go to waste. Poor Jenny, she's got a lot to handle and way too many bairns to boot.

Truly what happened to Fergus was the jolt Jamie needed to plan for a future for his remaining loved ones—even if it was one that put him back into the solitude from whence he'd just emerged.  Jenny, on the other hand, certainly wasn't acting when they took Jamie away. Poor dear. This was not HER idea of doing-the-right-thing. 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

When he says, 'When I'm with you, I'm with you, but you're with him", I finally felt bad for him. He cannot win.

Frank really can.not.win! Before Claire disappeared they did connect on a physical level, so he knows the difference. So sad.

ETA: Camera One wrote

Quote

I'm assuming we will get to see Murtagh soon.  In the season finale, they mentioned a few Frasers were imprisoned in the Tower of London but one escaped before execution and it was implied that might be Jaime.  But it's been 6 years, so I am assuming that happened already...

Thank YOU. It clearly wasn't Jamie so perhaps it WAS Murtagh. You've giving me something to look forward to.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

But before I say more I have to say something, the HAIR & MAKEUP people should be fired because Jamie's hair and makeup was ATROCIOUSLY bad.

It WAS pretty shameful.  Especially given the whole "Dun Bonnet" reference, where the brown hat was supposed to hide his hair to disguise him, and yet he had scraggy hair hanging out everywhere.  No good.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

When he said to Fergus, "You remind me I have something to live for", it was both heartening and sad as hell, his voice was back to the voice we know, but you could tell he was nearly empty inside.

 

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

He can not fathom that he survived Culloden. After all the build up to it, and assuming he would die on that battlefield, he has no game plan now for “what next?”

 

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

He has no plan to take him forward after Culloden—and no one to make a new plan with. 

I think we see here that Jamie isn't physically dead, but he is lost.  It hurts for him to remember and feel, so he shuts it off.  Throughout the episode, we see him continue to take these hits - Holding baby Ian, Jenny mentioning Claire and moving on, what happens to Fergus, deciding to turn himself in - and it is a constant reminder of just how much he has lost.  

I think your bolded section above is spot-on.  He didn't exactly have a solid life plan pre-Claire, so what is he going to do post-Claire?

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was happy to see Claire going to medical school though, she looked happy and she said exactly what I thought - that she had had a purpose in her life with Jamie beyond being his wife, she was a great healer, and becoming a doctor would be a way to keep that part of her life with Jamie still alive in her own time. It is a way to honor their life together in a way that she doesn't have to explain to anyone, not even Frank, she - and we - know why she's becoming a doctor, and it will give her something to throw herself into now, beyond being a mother.

I love Claire as a doctor, and I love that she threw herself into this to keep a part of her life with Jamie.  And I do honestly think she enjoys being a mother, and that her devoting herself to medicine isn't done so that she can not be a mother.  The scenes we see with her and younger Brianna, she is clearly dotes on her daughter.

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I will say that the first time I watched this one I too thought it was the most depressing  hour of tv, but on rewatch I have come to appreciate it more. Jamie is physically strong but not emotionally strong without Claire! And Claire throws herself into work instead of family, I don’t think they knew how hard it would be? 

I always appreciate how you do this with each episode.  I'll ponder aimlessly on about something, trying to get my point across, and then you just summarize what I intend to say so perfectly.  And then I read it and I'm like, "Well, duh Sass.  What she said." 

[Beeyago]

Just popping in to agree that Jenny and Ian are AWESOME! Great writing for those two, and brilliant casting. 

That is all, carry on...

[Cdh20]

6 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

It WAS pretty shameful.  Especially given the whole "Dun Bonnet" reference, where the brown hat was supposed to hide his hair to disguise him, and yet he had scraggy hair hanging out everywhere.  No good.  

 

 

I think we see here that Jamie isn't physically dead, but he is lost.  It hurts for him to remember and feel, so he shuts it off.  Throughout the episode, we see him continue to take these hits - Holding baby Ian, Jenny mentioning Claire and moving on, what happens to Fergus, deciding to turn himself in - and it is a constant reminder of just how much he has lost.  

I think your bolded section above is spot-on.  He didn't exactly have a solid life plan pre-Claire, so what is he going to do post-Claire?

I love Claire as a doctor, and I love that she threw herself into this to keep a part of her life with Jamie.  And I do honestly think she enjoys being a mother, and that her devoting herself to medicine isn't done so that she can not be a mother.  The scenes we see with her and younger Brianna, she is clearly dotes on her daughter.

I always appreciate how you do this with each episode.  I'll ponder aimlessly on about something, trying to get my point across, and then you just summarize what I intend to say so perfectly.  And then I read it and I'm like, "Well, duh Sass.  What she said." 

I think Jamie’s beard was better than in 207- that one was the worst.
 

I will say that the way Sam uses his whole body, & not many words to convey his depression was impressive! 

 

I don’t think Claire hated being a mother either, she was just ahead of her time, having a career & a family. I love that she became a surgeon, (she already was one in the 1740’s).
 

I love when everyone has these eloquent essays, and makes so many interesting interpretations, & predictions.  Since it’s not my first time though, I just do summary( I  joined this forum before season 4). 

[Cdh20]

22 hours ago, Beeyago said:

Just popping in to agree that Jenny and Ian are AWESOME! Great writing for those two, and brilliant casting. 

That is all, carry on...

Ian is so wise! 

[gingerella]

I get the feeling my post was misconstrued - I wasn't saying that Claire didn't like being a mother, I meant that her becoming a surgeon meant she could carry forth the job she had during her life with Jamie and thus, it gave her a meaning in life beyond just being a mother only. It also feels, from what Brianna has said, that Claire was distant as a mother, which makes sense if she's going through life wishing she was living in another lifetime altogether. So not that she didn't love being a mother, but was perhaps emotionally not as present as she might have been had she never gone through the Stones OR if she'd never left Jamie.

On 5/13/2021 at 6:52 AM, Cdh20 said:

Jamie is physically strong but not emotionally strong without Claire! And Claire throws herself into work instead of family, I don’t think they knew how hard it would be? 

I never really thought about it this way but you're so right, Jamie is physically strong but emotionally a wreck, again, because he had no game plan beyond Culloden, and a Anothermi said, he had also had nobody to make a plan with now. I don't think Jamie thought about how hard it would be precisely because he assumed he was going to die in about an hour or so after he left Claire so no biggie for him. But I think Claire knew, and that's why she was panicking when he was taking her to the Stones and she was trying to talk him out of it the whole way there. She knew how difficult it would be. She'd already made her decision to stay with him and never go back to Frank. She was willing to die with him there, in his time. She knew it would be impossible to forget, which is why she woke up on the other side of the Stones screaming in despair. But poor Jamie, he had no clue. I wonder if he knew he'd survive the battle, if he'd have sent Claire to safety in Lallybroch instead of sending her back to Frank. I think if he had done so, she'd have been arrested and harassed by the red coats to, and likely would have been raped and tortured to give them Jamie's whereabouts so I guess even if he knew he'd live, her being there was not safe at all, and especially not for a wee bairn.

Ian is a fucking PRINCE amongst men, for sure! That guy is always right on the money and Jamie should be lucky that Jenny married him. He's helped Jamie out of a few pickles in his lifetime.

I find myself dreading the coming episodes too, because so many dear characters are now dead. One thing that was bothering me today thinking about this story was that when Dougal was banished and Jamie sent to accompany him back to his lands, someone, I assume it was Ned, sent word to Jamie so he could ride back and rescue Claire from the witch trial. But where the hell was Dougal and why didn't he come, or send one of his men to rescue Geillis. He knew at that point that she was carrying his child, and Jamie was with him at the time so how could he not have known what was happening and why wouldn't he at least try to save Geillis since he would know her trial would result in her death. That's a weird hitch...

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I never really thought about it this way but you're so right, Jamie is physically strong but emotionally a wreck, again, because he had no game plan beyond Culloden, and a Anothermi said, he had also had nobody to make a plan with now.

Claire was very similar in her dejectedness and hopelessness when she first came back to the future.  Claire was more motivated to pick herself back up because she had a baby to think about.  One difference between Claire and Jaime is that Claire was always much more goal-oriented and had concrete ideas about what she wanted to do.  Thus, her pursuing medical school (though of course it was also partly an escape from the awkward situation with Frank and to occupy herself so she could forget what she lost).  Even in the past, she needed to keep busy (for example, in Paris, working at the hospital with the nun).  Whereas Jaime was often on the run or getting out of dodgy situations.  His actions were often driven by Claire's goals or Claire's welfare - his whole trip to France was to try to stop Culloden.  He didn't often seem to have goals of his own.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Camera One