S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Tikichick]

20 hours ago, Francie said:

Jaime, "Do you trust me?" Tyrion nods. Tywin isn't Joffrey. Tywin only gets what he wants if Jaime gets what he wants -- Tyrion sent to the wall. 

Tywin had Shae testify to twist the life and humiliate Tyrion.  Now, to me, that was unnecessary and actually against Tywin's character, because he would have preferred to not have the Lannister name dragged through any further mud, but that is, quite evidently, the reason. 

Tyrion would go along with it because the alternative was death. And, in his own internal monologue in the books, he realizes that he said and did things that got him to look so guilty.  He chides himself for hanging himself with his own words. 

Surely Cersei would never choose a time when she's so enraged about her brother murdering her son to finally enact her revenge and kill him?  It's not like she's ever murdered anyone at this point.  She also has an impeccable record of honesty and being completely forthright in what she says and does.

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Is there any way for the NK and his army to get to Essos?  The characters keep talking about the "end of the world", but it was stated that the wights can't swim, so they could not threaten the Iron Islands. If they can't reach the Iron Islands,  how would they get to Essos?   If they can't, the real estate that Dany acquired along Slavers Bay and in the Great Grass Sea would skyrocket in value. :)

Nothing says they can't be directed to board ships.

[Notwisconsin]

In the great winter/long night, the polar caps would expand and they could walk over.

[Hana Chan]

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Dany may be okay with the incest; she will probably be more thrown by the "there goes my claim to the Iron Throne" thing, which is a big part of her identity.

It will be interesting to see if she ends up being more focused on the idea of a Targaryen restoration as a whole and not that her ass is planted in the primary seat.  Jon has several advantages over her, not just because he is male. Being born and raised all his life in Westeros (whereas Dany spent her entire life in exile), with a long history of defending the realm. That's going to matter a great deal to some. Dany, fairly or not, is going to have to fight the impression of being a foreigner (despite having been born in Westeros and being driven out as an infant) and leading a foreign army. It's very possible that Jon may seem preferable because he brings the best of both worlds - he's the legitimate direct heir and he's got the history of protecting the kingdom.

In the end, the point may be a bit moot because I see Dany and Jon staying together (since the odds are that he's knocking her up on that long boat trip). Jon will have to do some mental gymnastics to get his brain around the idea that they are closely related but since they weren't raised together as family (the way she was with Visreys which was total ick) and he looks nothing at all like a Targaryen, he'll probably get there at some point. The two of them, if they survive, will be very capable co-rulers.

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Here's an excellent look at "Behind the Scenes" at the Dragon Pit.  Really excellent.  It's so funny to hear Tyrion in Peter Dinklage's real voice and accent while he's dressed up as Tyrion.  After seeing this, I'm really sorry we got such a cartoon Euron character.  I think the actor could really kill some great writing if he had it.  I have become a fan of his, and hope he does more American films. 

Anyway, enjoy!

That was fun!  Great to see the various actors hanging out and chatting.  It must have been a blast to film this giant "family reunion."  I was surprised to see that the wiggling severed arm of the wight was actually attached to a stunt actor in green.  I had just assumed the arm was mechanical.

My 2c on the incest?  Meh, it's a fantasy world with fantasy values.  Jon and Dany might be squicked out at first, but those kids are meant for each other.  I really, really want to see how other characters react to the news that Jon is a Targ.  I want to see Varys's jaw drop.

[Tikichick]

20 hours ago, Francie said:

You're twisting the argument or simply misunderstanding. And I assume you're addressing me because you're quoting me. If not, my apologies and I'm missing of whom you are making that accusation. 

Some have attempted to lay the blame for Myrcella's death on Cersei.  I've been unraveling each of those threads of thought and exposing the bedrock of those thoughts. 

I hold Tyrion responsible for Myrcella because he made the decision to send a lamb into a lion's den (house sigils put aside).  Tyrion needed to own that he set in motion events that led to her death. And, in this episode he did. That's it, pure and simple. 

But Tyrion sent Myrcella to a pleasant climate, to marry a nice young prince, to a land where there was enmity between the Martells and Lannisters -- but yet the controlling members of House Martell had absolutely no intentions of harming Myrcella whatsoever.  Prince Doran, Oberyn and Prince Trystane would never have allowed harm to come to Myrcella.  

Cersei's insistence to use the Mountain to handle the Tyrion issue is the catalyst that triggered Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to stage a coup and murder Myrcella and those of their own house who would protect her. 

[Hana Chan]

2 minutes ago, Haleth said:

 I really, really want to see how other characters react to the news that Jon is a Targ.  I want to see Varys's jaw drop.

This is the moment that I've going to live for. Ned really pulled on over on everyone and I'm looking forward to him being remembered in Westeros not as an honorable fool, but a man clever enough to protect the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne from everyone, including his closest friend and his family. That he was willing to go so far as to lie to his wife and risk his marriage really shows how deeply invested he was in protecting Jon. And no one suspected a damned thing when this man known for his unbending sense of honor brought home a baby that he claimed as his. The only one who suspected in some remote way that Jon wasn't Ned's son was Stannis, who only remarked that it wasn't Ned's way to whore around. Otherwise... nada.

Not that I wasn't more than ready to see Littlefinger meet his end, but it would have been hysterical for him to have learned about Jon's parentage right before he died, just so that he would see how he got played by Ned.

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

But Tyrion sent Myrcella to a pleasant climate, to marry a nice young prince, to a land where there was enmity between the Martells and Lannisters -- but yet the controlling members of House Martell had absolutely no intentions of harming Myrcella whatsoever.  Prince Doran, Oberyn and Prince Trystane would never have allowed harm to come to Myrcella.  

Cercei is blaming Tyrion for not foreseeing every possible consequence while ignoring the fact that she is directly to blame for nearly everything. Want to make nice with the Martells? Execute the bastard that killed Elia and her children. There were certainly more than enough grounds to get rid of The Mountain with little or no cost to the Lannisters and it would have earned the family's gratitude instead of the long line of deaths that followed Oberyn's. Tyrion is not to blame for the ascent of the Sparrows - that was a direct result of years of misrule in Kings Landing, much of which can be laid at Cersei's feet. It's unfortunate that Myrcella and Tommen died, because they were true innocents who had the misfortune of being related to Cersei, but she ultimately holds much of the responsibility for what happened to the Lannisters since her disgusting first born met his very just reward. 

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, ulkis said:

Someone asked why Bran told Sam the truth and not Arya and Sansa. I'm guessing so once he finds out Dany burned his brother and dad he can yell "screw her! Jon's the heir!"

It seems clear it was necessary to place another person on the board who knows all of those facts.  Makes you wonder why?

So sorry not to get the chance to meet you, Howland.  Maybe another time, another page.

[darkestboy]

Brilliant finale. We've had more shocking ones but this was a great way to end the current season and set up the final one, whenever we get that.

Of course Cersei was going to betray both Jon and Dany, so I wasn't shocked by it but I did love Jaime finally getting away from her for once and for all.

Cersei and Tyrion's scene did make me worry if the latter will betray Dany though.

Jon's heritage being revealed during that moment with him and Dany too was a little obvious but effective though.

Sansa and Arya banding together to take out Littlefinger was brilliant. I am so glad that he's finally dead.

Nice moment with Bran and Sam too and I'm still loving the winter imagery throughout the show, especially now it's happening in King's Landing.

Really hoping that Theon kills Euron as quickly as possible next season too, 8/10

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Cersei's insistence to use the Mountain to handle the Tyrion issue is the catalyst that triggered Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to stage a coup and murder Myrcella and those of their own house who would protect her. 

I don't necessarily disagree, but Oberyn was also the architect of his own downfall. I love the character, but he's an impulsive hot head and nothing less than the Mountain naming Tywin as the man who ordered the assassination of his family was going to do. This is something Ellaria and the Sand Snakes don't take into consideration or care about. Doran does and it gets him called weak and murdered. 

It's a blood feud, it was just going to go on until none of them were left standing. 

[MissLucas]

All this talk about the emotional and moral ramifications of the incest takes focus away from the political implications. If we assume that both Jon and Dany come around and take their union as a means to reinstate Targaryen rule complete with babies - then how is this 'breaking the wheel'? Daenerys has always relied on revolutionary rhetoric even when she was talking about regaining the Iron Throne - a bit easier to do away with monarchical rule when you're convinced you're the last of your dynasty. And that's what made Tyrion's lines about succession so intriguing. What exactly were her plans for succession? We never heard about them. And now all we've got is one baby-anvil after the next. (Btw. why is everyone focused on Dany's fertility? Nobody bothered about Jon shooting blinds after that whole 'coming back from death' thing?)

And then there's the foreshadowing with Lord Royce and the other northern Lords: 'You can't trust a Targaryen' said directly to Jon's face. Once the truth is out Jon's position in the North will be shaky at best. Also: house Stark is in trouble since Jon can no longer keep the line intact. Seems to me Bran and Sam should better keep the info-dump to themselves. Which of course is not going to happen. But Bran's suggestion to drop the truth immediately on Jon makes little sense. Dude, let him first deal with the war at hand and don't give everyone in this already shaky alliance weird ideas. You've been less than helpful for almost a whole season - no need to suddenly change now!

Edited August 29, 2017 by MissLucas

[Tikichick]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but Oberyn was also the architect of his own downfall. I love the character, but he's an impulsive hot head and nothing less than the Mountain naming Tywin as the man who ordered the assassination of his family was going to do. This is something Ellaria and the Sand Snakes don't take into consideration or care about. Doran does and it gets him called weak and murdered. 

It's a blood feud, it was just going to go on until none of them were left standing. 

Oberyn absolutely miscalculated, unquestionably.  Words like consideration and care didn't exactly hold a lot of meaning or value with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, not active enough words. 

19 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I think one of my all time favorite moments in all of GoT is going to be the Hound, carefully undoing the box, stepping back...then NOTHING!!! Bwahahaha. I mean obviously that dead effer in there was picking his moment or nose or whatever but that was good!

I thought his orders hadn't been listened to and we were looking at an Al Capone's vault situation there for a moment.

[TobinAlbers]

49 minutes ago, ACW said:

Woolly mammoths FTW!

As soon as she mentioned elephants I was like if we got WightBears we better get Wight!Elephants and Wight!Woolly Mammoths.

[huahaha]

40 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

FDR and Elanor were FIFTH cousins.That's very, very different than say, brother and sister or First cousins. Going back far enough, all ethnic group members are cousins, and humanity has a single common ancestor "The mitocrondrial Eve" dating back a quarter million years ago. When does it stop being incest? I'm not sure, but the Roosevelts aren't it.

Agreed. First cousins share 12.5% of their DNA on average. Fifth cousins are down to 0.05%.

Also, aunt and nephew is a closer relationship than first cousins. Jon and Dany share about 25% of their DNA -- as much as half-siblings. That is pretty squicky. Their case is made worse because their shared DNA is a result of generations of inbreeding and clearly has developed issues already.

[Hana Chan]

28 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

And now all we've got is one baby-anvil after the next. (Btw. why is everyone focused on Dany's fertility? Nobody bothered about Jon shooting blinds after that whole 'coming back from death' thing?)

It never was an issue for Jon. First he was with the NW, which means no family or babies (though I couldn't buy the idea that they were all celibate). He could have possibly gotten Ygritte pregnant, but that just never happened in what little time they had together. And that's it for his sexual history up until now. He's a man who is (assumably) illegitimate, and has had a total of one sexual partner in his entire life! And without titles to pass on, no one was going to be worried if Jon could father children.

Dany, OTOH, is a claimant to the throne of Westeros and (as far as everyone up until now knows) the last of her family line. After the death of Khal Drogo and her son, she's had several sexual partners and was with Daario for a fairly extended period. She has not been pregnant since and her presumed infertility may very well mean the final extinction of the Targaryen line. Not being able to produce an heir is a big deal for a ruler - when Queen Elizabeth died with no natural heir, it was the end of the Tudor line and there was a period of political upheaval in the following decades. If Dany were a man, the last of his family line and unable to father children, it would be as serious a consideration. The inability to father a male heir was a driving force behind Henry VIII's worst abuses.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Hana Chan

[domina89]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have so much blood on their hands because neither had the honor to put their own desires second to the good of the nations and families who relied on them.

Not to mention the casualties who had to live with the results of their elopement- namely their son, Jon, who had to grow up with the stigma of being a bastard and was denied his birthright. Ned, whose reputation was tarnished and whose marriage suffered as a result of the secret he was forced to keep, and Cat, who we know never really got over Ned's "betrayal."   Ironic that despite Rhaegar and Lyanna's lack of honor, their son has an abundance of it.  I'm glad Ned raised him.

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

Not to follow Cersei, to protect his unborn nephew/niece.  He did say that he loved Cersei's other children (although Joffrey would be a stretch).  He was obviously concerned when he realized she was pregnant.  Besides, he had just got done telling Jon Snow it wouldn't hurt to lie once in a while.  He obviously cares for his family.  Not only that, every one of his military suggestions ended unsuccessfully.

I just feel very strongly that Tyrion will be Dany's betrayal for love.  We know from the books that Quaithe warned Dany about a lion ("No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. 
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.")  Now this could be Cersei, of course, but Dany knows to be wary of her.  She trusts Tyrion, however, as does Jon.  Jon only went to Dragonstone because he trusted that Tyrion was not lying to him or trying to lay a trap for him.  It would be very easy for Tyrion, as an insider, to betray both Jon and Dany at this point.  I don't think it will happen until after the NK is dealt with, but, once the fight turns toward Cersei again, I could see Tyrion choosing his family over his honor.  I guess it will depend on what Jaime does.  He may have walked away from Cersei, but they are far from being finished, imo.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

The whole "He's not a Bastard" idea really pisses me off.  It comes off as standard soap opera trope.  And GOT is all about breaking tropes.  Jon and Dany being related, and having no idea, and their blood relationship is being discussed by Bran as they are making love - is brilliant.  Jon and Dany are the couple, people should be shipping in the standard tale, but given their blood relationship, it makes a lot of fans, like me, go "Yeesh,"  So the Jon "Not a Bastard" Snow" is standard trope and pissing me off.

 

I know...it would seem to me a much more powerful conclusion if the savior of the world turns out to be a bastard - a figure everyone holds in contempt, especially when they measure the strength of their all-important claims to power. I always thought it would have been a much better story if all the stupid aristocratic pedigrees with their certificates of matrimony and legitimacy that people have been fighting over because it supposedly gives them claim for power over men turn out to be irrelevant, because the savior of the world will be a bastard far worthier than any of them due to his own efforts and virtues, not a paper trail.

The idea that Jon is worthy because he NOW has a paper trail as good as any of the other petty aristocrats who've ruined things up till now seems much less likable a conclusion to me.

Edited August 29, 2017 by screamin

[Lady Iris]

I rewatched it last night, such a good ep. I have to say I sorta feel bad for Catelyn. Everybody goes on about Ned and how much they miss him and blah blah blah but she never gets any love.

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I rewatched it last night, such a good ep. I have to say I sorta feel bad for Catelyn. Everybody goes on about Ned and how much they miss him and blah blah blah but she never gets any love.

Funny thing, she DID in the episode - from LF.   :P

[MrsR]

I think the real dilemma is one that we haven't considered.  Yeh, they're aunt and nephew. Yep, Jon is legitimate. Yup, he's the heir to the throne. There are multiple dilemmas but one stands out to me based on the way the story is being framed.

So the first dilemma is,  do they continue their relationship?  They aren't just attracted to each other. They aren't just two young pretty people getting off with each other, they are in LOVE. The Big Love. Endless love.  It would be torture to be forced apart. Exquisite torment.

Second, he's a hero. Many people are going to expect him to be on the throne. He's earned it.  But the throne was her life's goal. Not his. His birthright breaks her heart. And probably make her a dangerous resident. She would have to return to Essos.

Third, she's going to get pregnant. Who's going to be her husband?  A loyal Jorah who pretends the kid is his? Jorah would do that, we know he would. Could John accept not being a father to his child, what with his bastard past?

To deny his birthright would Jon go back to Winterfell and take it all away from Sansa?

So the BIG dilemma is, to make all these issues go away, for everyone to be happy and for there to be peace in Westeros, John will have to LIE. Never reveal who he really is. And Bran and Sam will have to go along with this lie. Just like Robert's Rebellion was based on a lie, and Jon's upbringing was a lie, the future of Westeros will hinge on a lie. 

 

Will Jon lie?

[Helena Dax]

I don't trust Tyrion either.

He left King's Landing seething with rage and back then, joining the enemy and destroying his family seemed a wonderful idea. But when he came back, first he saw the Lannister soldiers being burnt alive and he didn't like it at all. When Jaime rushed towards Daenerys, Tyrion was horrified because he didn't want his brother to die. I think now that when he complained about the Tarlys, he was thinking of Jaime too, and what would his brother do if he had to choose between bending the knee to Dany or die. His face when Gendry killed those Lannister soldiers? Somber. And now, he knows Cersei's pregnant. An innocent niece or nephew. Going against his family is way harder than he thought. 

So does he want to bertray Dany and Jon? I don't think so. But he wants to protect Jaime, Cersei and the baby. He wants them to survive and in my opinion, he'll do some questionable things in order to try to save them. 

[Lady Iris]

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

Funny thing, she DID in the episode - from LF.   :P

Hah! Got me there.  But nobody likes him!

[mac123x]

15 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

As much as Qyburn is evil and all that, I'd be willing to let him come up with plans to kill wights and white walkers. He looked very interested in that wight. 

That could be fun.  Science vs Magic, like Ghostbusters.  Qyburn and his little birds could show up at Winterfell sporting proton-packs.  :)

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't trust Tyrion either.

He left King's Landing seething with rage and back then, joining the enemy and destroying his family seemed a wonderful idea. But when he came back, first he saw the Lannister soldiers being burnt alive and he didn't like it at all. When Jaime rushed towards Daenerys, Tyrion was horrified because he didn't want his brother to die. I think now that when he complained about the Tarlys, he was thinking of Jaime too, and what would his brother do if he had to choose between bending the knee to Dany or die. His face when Gendry killed those Lannister soldiers? Somber. And now, he knows Cersei's pregnant. An innocent niece or nephew. Going against his family is way harder than he thought. 

So does he want to bertray Dany and Jon? I don't think so. But he wants to protect Jaime, Cersei and the baby. He wants them to survive and in my opinion, he'll do some questionable things in order to try to save them. 

He already has, IMO. He advised Dany against attacking the Red Keep with dragons, which probably would have been the best way to bring the war to an end quickly, and though he clothed it in fine, perfectly valid reasons about the collateral damage KL would suffer, I think he was also quite sincere when he told Cersei he'd kept Dany from attacking the Red Keep to protect his family (Jaime probably more than Cersei). Olenna saw that Tyrion's strategy would be more dangerous, and she and the Dorne were ultimately sacrificed at least partially to spare his family.

[benteen]

Someone noted that Sansa didn't actually do anything to outmaneuver Littlefinger.  She had to rely on Bran's magic instead.  Perhaps she convinced the Vale Lords behind the scenes (would love to see her explaining her magic brother to them) but that would likely mean admitting that she helped keep Littlefinger in power when questioned about Lysa's death when she didn't have to and hope that they won't be angry at her.  Oof, my head hurts trying to explain that.

[Lady Iris]

What I liked about the Stark takedown of Littlefinger was that they each did their own part but worked together to do it. I loved when Arya said, "My sister asked you a question." That look on her face. Good stuff.

[DarkRaichu]

36 minutes ago, mac123x said:

That could be fun.  Science vs Magic, like Ghostbusters.  Qyburn and his little birds could show up at Winterfell sporting proton-packs.  :)

Lol.  I would not put it pass Qyburn to come up with some kind of medical flamethrower to fight the wights ;)   

Although he seems to be more interested in recreating the magic than actually destroying it :D

 

ETA: flamethrower that shoot GREEN wyldfire :D. That would be awesome visually

Edited August 29, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[qtpye]

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 8:03 AM, DarkRaichu said:

Yep.  Cersei already planned to get Golden Company before the meeting with Dany.  The whole pouting and storming of the negotiation was just a delay tactic. Although she must have anticipated Tyrion to come to her otherwise the tactic would not have worked.  Is Cersei better at anticipating her brother than anyone realize?? All indications point to yes if we want to believe that she handily won Highgarden and defeated Dorne earier.

I actually do not have any problem with this had the writing was not so sloppy, ie. without using teleportation / warp engine for Euron's fleet 

The thing is Cersei understands Tyrion's need for her love.  He loves his family and has always longed for their acceptance.  She knows how to play him, as giving him false hope is the ulimate cruelty.

[Enigma X]

10 hours ago, skiracing12 said:

Reading these threads is making me feel like I'm the other one who likes the Dany and Jon romance (the idea, not the writing). Yeah incest is pretty gross to us but again as people have said it supposed to be a different time. I'm not dedicated enough to scan the genealogies of the houses but I'm sure that if you looked there would be many examples of marriages like this one throughout the houses. Also, GoT has always been a show of grey's, not black and white. One of the things that i felt was missing from this season was some grey in our heroes's arcs. Because we all recognize incest is bad, maybe this is a way to add a little bit more grey to a character like Jon, and present him with choices in the future that can redeem him or add even more grey. Anyways I thought the writing could've used some work, but i like the idea of a Jon Dany romance, not just because its a fan service but because it does exactly what we all love GoT for.

You are not alone with liking the Dany and Jon romance.

[Pogojoco]

Bran's line about Robert's Rebellion being based on a lie isn't correct, though.

Robert Baratheon believed Lyanna was kidnapped against her will. Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark and Ned Stark did, too. And Jon Arryn. And Robert's Rebellion has always sort of been mis-named- it was really more Jon Arryn's Rebellion but that isn't as catchy and he wasn't king at the end.

Bran should have said "My father lied. To everyone." Though that would thrown some water on the various "Ned Stark is the greatest. I miss the hell out of that guy." speeches from his various daughters and "sons." It might've been more interesting and nuanced though.

23 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Lol.  I would not put it pass Qyburn to come up with some kind of medical flamethrower to fight the wights ;)   

Although he seems to be more interested in recreating the magic than actually destroying it :D

 

ETA: flamethrower that shoot GREEN wyldfire :D. That would be awesome visually

The lack of wildfire as an option to be discussed at least is a curious one, especially since it was used by Cersei with the Sept and Tyrion at Blackwater. It's been well established 

[sacrebleu]

Quote

If Jon and Dany do have kids,

they are aunt/nephew and Dany's parents/ Jon's grandparents were siblings, if they have kids, there's a very good possibility that one of them could *literally* be a three headed dragon. (just sayin')

[YaddaYadda]

15 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

Because none of us believe Lyanna was that stupid. We still don't have the real story of how they got together.  People are still assuming the worst.

If D&D come out and say that GRRM told them that Jon's name is Aegon, then I'll accept it and I'll bitch and bitch about it and wonder what kind of fucking crazy pills she was on. As far as I remember, the show never mentioned the names of Rhaenys and Aegon, they were always referred to indirectly as the children that were murdered when Aerys fell. 

As it stands, for me, the front runners for the names are Aemon and Daeron and I've become pretty convinced lately that Daeron could be the name.

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, Nanrad said:

I haven't necessarily seen it here, but I see many people trying to conflate Jaime and Cersei to Dany and Jon, which are two completely different relationships both literally and figuratively. As someone who is STILL grossed out by Cersei and Jaime, but ships Jon and Dany, which wasn't until this last episode, I'll further explain why:

Shipping is totally preferential, but when it comes to literal blood relationship and romance, Jaime and Cersei aren't just brother and sister, they are twins who look alike. They have an incredibly close relationship. These two literally grew up together and take pride in the fact that they're banging each other as well as having kids together. They KNOW and don't care. In their minds, we're actually supposed to understand their romance EVEN more--they've only ever had each other. As a twin myself (we're both females), that's a big fat no from me. My twin and I are super close, especially because we were excluded from a lot of things and only had each other, but...NOPE. Even with my brothers, NO! 

But, something went 'wrong' because, psychologically speaking, they aren't supposed to be attracted to each other because they've literally been around each other their entire life, and so, that intense familiarity is supposed to negate any attraction. Why? As mentioned earlier, the more similar your genes are, the more likely you are to create a child who has no diversity in their genes which offsprings need biologically. The only two type of siblings who resembles each others DNA the most are identical twins, which they don't have that reproduction issue since I believe identical twins are only of the same sex.

Now when it comes to cousins, aunts, etc, there is enough diversity in the genes to the point that they don't have this issue. But, again, unless there is hella inbredding, there isn't a biological component there. As far as their familial relationship dynamic goes, I'm not sure about societal relationships between aunt and nephew perception wise, but I believe until a few decades ago, there wasn't a taboo on marrying your cousin--this is a recent thing. (I couldn't be wrong). But, since this is based upon a different time, there would be less of a taboo, especially because they aren't brother and sister. Dany would be okay with it and I believe it wouldn't be the end of the world for Jon. I've literally read like .5% of the book, but weren't Ned's parents related, hell, isn't most of those who hold houses or fought in the battle of five kings related somehow???

Lastly, Dany and Jon literally had no relationship prior to them meeting in Dragonstone nor were they aware of their bloodties. I doubt it would something that turned them on either like it did with Jamie and Cersei. 

So, because of these reason: lack of relationship, how they're related to each other and what it means for genetics, as well as the fact that ancestral marriages were practiced, but not siblings (just the Targaryens--I think), it's not a thing for me. I think they're great together and I'm excited/anxious to see what's next. lol

ETA: FDR and Elenor Roosevelt were cousins. I believe many cousins married each other in the early 20th century and prior centuries. Again, I know there is a difference between cousins and aunt and nephew, but there isn't an established relationship that acknowledges this and they're like the same age give or take a few years.

In our real world I think it's called the Westermarck Effect - the idea is that people growing up in close domestic proximity from birth to 6 years become desensitized to sexual attraction. Biology is less of a factor than proximity with non-blood related siblings (i.e., adopted). Apparently the opposite is true of blood relations who do not know they are related, as they may be very attracted to each other.  The Targaryen's sometimes had marital dysfunction when brothers married sisters even though they were raised to believe it was normal for their family; see Aerys and Rhaella for example. 

Bottom line- brothers and sisters are not normally attracted to each other sexually, which is why Cersei/Jaime is more unsettling. The other thing about Cersei/Jaime incest is that was partially and deliberately out of spite for Robert. In the book Cersei claimed that she aborted Robert's child and deliberately had Jaime's whom she passed off as Robert's legitimate heirs. Now that she's Queen and there's no Faith to get in the way, I suppose she could marry Jaime as the Targaryens of the past did - except for the fact that he wised up and finally left her. 

The other thing that makes things different from real life, is that the Ice and Fire universe is a fantasy land that has magic and magical creatures. The way the magic manifests depends on the wielder but blood has a lot to do with it. Physics doesn't work quite the same way. The seasons are affected by magic.

Dany uses blood magic to hatch three petrified dragon eggs into live dragons, and to walk through the flames without being burnt. Magic allows Jon and Beric to be resurrected. Magic in the blood of the Starks allows Bran to be a shape-shifter/Warg (as well as all his siblings in the books) and become a green-seer. It allows Dany and her ancestors to control and ride dragons. I wonder if the fact that Stark kids are all wargs in the books has to do with the fact that their grandparents were cousins and both Starks. 

I'm not that weirded out by Jon and Dany falling in love and being attracted to each other, since they have no reason to believe they are related at this point. The incest is in the DNA of the story and may serve some kind of purpose if the prophesies are to be believed. That doesn't mean it won't cause problems in the relationship, emotionally - especially for Jon. I don't expect a "happily ever after" ending for them (however much I would like for them to both live and have some happiness). 

On the political front, I don't think Jon has any interest in the Iron Throne but just the fact that he has a claim will complicate Daenerys' claim and may cause a rift in the alliance once the northern threat is dealt with. A marriage  alliance between Jon and Dany could solve that problem but that Jon can get over the probably angst about Dany being his aunt. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by MarySNJ

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Cercei is blaming Tyrion for not foreseeing every possible consequence while ignoring the fact that she is directly to blame for nearly everything. Want to make nice with the Martells? Execute the bastard that killed Elia and her children. There were certainly more than enough grounds to get rid of The Mountain with little or no cost to the Lannisters and it would have earned the family's gratitude instead of the long line of deaths that followed Oberyn's. Tyrion is not to blame for the ascent of the Sparrows - that was a direct result of years of misrule in Kings Landing, much of which can be laid at Cersei's feet. It's unfortunate that Myrcella and Tommen died, because they were true innocents who had the misfortune of being related to Cersei, but she ultimately holds much of the responsibility for what happened to the Lannisters since her disgusting first born met his very just reward. 

This is shows that Cersei's consistent in her idiocy: if Cersei had the mountain killed or whatever, the Martells wouldn't have had retaliated. They would've honored the deal and showed goodwill. But, no, Cersei wanted to do things HER way, which led to her daughter's death. And it's fucking hypocritical considering all of that shit she pulled with Sansa and allowed to happen, so I'm not understanding her outrage. Myrcella LOVED being in Dorne, where as Sansa was miserable. Tyrion made a strategic move that SHE sabotaged because it's always her family first rather than making nice and actually compromising. Everyone else seems to do it except her.

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

FDR and Elanor were FIFTH cousins.That's very, very different than say, brother and sister or First cousins. Going back far enough, all ethnic group members are cousins, and humanity has a single common ancestor "The mitocrondrial Eve" dating back a quarter million years ago. When does it stop being incest? I'm not sure, but the Roosevelts aren't it.

My point remains outside of the genetic argument. How we see the cousin, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew thing is purely perception. Because, personally, if I found out someone was my fifth cousin, I'm going to still see them as a cousin and it's a big NO for me and I know plenty of people who feel that way. Back then, the aversion is not like it is now and that's really the U.S.. Even then, outside of the US and East Asia, there aren't restrictive laws or (firm) negative impressions on marrying family outside the sibling, parent, and grandparent relationship. I'm not pro-incest, but my point largely centers on cultural norm as well as how much gene diversity exist between the two. It is valid that Dany and Jon are far more related than your average aunt and nephew, at the same time, his Stark genes brings far more diversity to the Targaryen line than most of the other offspring they've had.  

Some people are able to justify fifth cousins marrying even if they find it gross and for other people, family is family and it's a no. But, my point with saying many people in Westeroes are related is because haven't a few of them practiced first cousin marriage? The stigmas in Westeros is sibling incest and massive inbredding, I believe.

[Paradigm14]

14 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

If D&D come out and say that GRRM told them that Jon's name is Aegon, then I'll accept it and I'll bitch and bitch about it and wonder what kind of fucking crazy pills she was on. As far as I remember, the show never mentioned the names of Rhaenys and Aegon, they were always referred to indirectly as the children that were murdered when Aerys fell. 

As it stands, for me, the front runners for the names are Aemon and Daeron and I've become pretty convinced lately that Daeron could be the name.

No, the names of the kids were mentioned on the show.

[Misplaced]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:02 PM, Ottis said:

if Bran was able to see all the details around LF, why not have him see Cersei's true plan, or what the Night Army is up to ("they have a dragon!), or geez, the future?  And yet he could see all Sansa and Arya described, but not Jon's heritage?  For a guy who sits around being mystical, he doesn't see as much as you would think.

To be fair, the dude is surfing randomly through time -- I think he has to focus on something to actually see it.  Once Sam says "hey, can you see that?!", he looks for it.  The way I see (hah - see what I did there?) his character is completely unmoored from his 'real' time unless someone firmly anchors him in it.  And also....he knows they have a dragon now, right?  Wasn't that last scene of Bran plugged into the weirwoodwebs meant to indicate he sees Viserion Ice?  

On 8/28/2017 at 2:02 PM, Ottis said:

BTW, wasn't the wall strong not only because of its size, but because it was bound with magic? What happened to the magic?

Fire Dragon, fire magic (from south of the Wall), turns into Ice Dragon, ice magic, big and bad enough to counter the magic of the Wall, or at least that's what I guessed.   

On 8/28/2017 at 2:02 PM, Ottis said:

As for Jon's big ethical dilemma, wouldn't that have been solved by Dany simply asking him to do what Cersei had asked? if the issue was that he already had a queen, wouldn't that have fixed it and avoided the drama?

I wondered about that, and also wondered if Dany couldn't release him from his oath.  But if Jon swore to be Switzerland, then when (not if) Cersei attacked Dany, he couldn't intervene.  Also Cersei knew he wouldn't be Switzerland against the Lannisters: they killed Ned.  She was lying through her very perfect and pretty teeth at all points in any case.  

[Nanrad]

25 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

they are aunt/nephew and Dany's parents/ Jon's grandparents were siblings, if they have kids, there's a very good possibility that one of them could *literally* be a three headed dragon. (just sayin')

Hmm...it's debated that Dany is bad because of her genes, but I don't know if we've necessarily seen evidence of this. Her brother definitely was or maybe it'll express itself later on. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but I believe the Stark genes will be able to offset potential defects or mutations. That type of mutation was far more likely with her brother than it is her nephew, despite there genes being more similar than your average aunt and nephew. 

[Hana Chan]

35 minutes ago, doram said:

If the genders were reversed and Jane was the Super-Special Love child of 2 magical bloodlines with the potential of having 2 magical creatures who becomes heir to the Throne above Daeron, the exiled Prince who lived through homelessness and slavery and freed slaves and conquered  nation's and has been amassing armies to reclaim his father's throne....

Mary/Gary Sues are highly idealized, perfect characters. Jon is anything but. Jon makes mistakes and has to shoulder pretty significant consequences.  He's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, nor is he an author insert. he's a protagonist, as is Dany, in the bigger storyline.

Both he and Dany both have had supernatural elements in their storylines that place them well outside the norms that everyone else in ASOIAF exist in. Jon gets brought back from the dead. Dany can survive fire. Jon gets a direwolf. Dany hatches and rides on dragons. Jon gets sent to the Wall and in a few years is running the place. Dany gets sold as a trophy bride and in a few years is ruling all Dothraki. I don't get how his storyline is any more outlandish than Dany's. It appears to me that some are annoyed that a male character may have greater claim over a title than a female character, but that's another issue. If the genders were reversed and Jane, the "Super-Special" love child being revealed as the true heir would have a lot of female fans cheering her on. Just like we've got fans who want to see Sansa declared QITN despite the fact that Jon holds that title. I've got no beef with that, but there is an element of hypocrisy in that argument. I can get that some prefer Dany to Jon for many reasons, but that doesn't make Jon a Gary Sue.

On another note - it's a good thing that Jon does take after his mother. Otherwise Ned would have been dying Jon's hair every other day to hide it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Hana Chan

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

No, the names of the kids were mentioned on the show.

Well that's so much better! I think they did it because Aegon is a more recognizable name, and maybe GRRM didn't even tell them what his real name is, or didn't want them to use it. He didn't want them to use Jeyne Westerling's name when they decided that Richard Madden should be shown more as a romantic lead, so maybe it's a similar thing?

(Me hating the name, making myself feel better).

[stillshimpy]

13 hours ago, magdalene said:

I feel bad for Jon.  I just can't imagine him being thrilled at learning that he has been having sex with his aunt. He grew up as a Stark, in the North.  While Dany comes from a totally different culture I am not convinced she will be okay with this either.

That's the thing, poor Jon is set to be handed this information with absolutely no one to give him any context other than Bran and to put it mildly, his empathy machine seems broken at the moment. "You looked so beautiful, being married off to that sadistic rapist, I consider this a compliment now.  Hopefully, I won't feel the urge to compliment anyone again anytime soon."  

So poor freaking Jon, whose first love was part of a con, tried to kill him, then died in front of him as she was trying to kill him some more (or at least faking it fairly well).  Then he gets stabbed to death by his own men.  Now he's going to find out that Ned lied to him his entire life and that basically, his only relationship that hasn't been altered by this will be with Benjen because at least Benjen is still his uncle.

Tad dead to offer any comfort but at least one thing wouldn't be wildly altered.  

Now he's going to find out that because Ned took his secrets to the actual grave, he's boned his aunt.  It's also kind of a big deal to Jon, who's only really had one brief sexual relationship.  

I mean, jeez, somebody better get on inventing the shower in Westerosi because ye olde shower o' shame is his most likely reaction complete with wails, and rending of garments.    Sincerely, who could blame him?    Your whole life is a lie.  Your dad, who this episode made clear is someone you greatly admire, is actually your Uncle.   Then you find out that you've inadvertently gone to the bone zone with your Aunt.   

That alone is a giant mind screw waiting to happen.  

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, I might be rejoicing at the end of Littlefinger, but this episode also confirmed to me what I have long suspected, that this show had a few more master villains this whole time: Rhaegar and Lyana. Granted, we dont know the whole story here, and its possible that this was part of some plot by Rhaegar to create some kind of Fire and Ice Promised One kid to save the world, and that would make this all a little bit better, and they didnt seem as malicious as Littlefinger, BUT from what we see here, these two were self centered, uncaring assholes, especially for characters who the other characters have spoken highly of. 

I mean, just about everyone we have met has talked about how wonderful Lyanna was, how sweet and strong and spunky she was, and her flashbacks as a kid seem to set her up as a kind of sweeter Arya 1.0, but when you look at the facts? She was put together with Robert as a political marriage, and Robert fell for her, but she fell for Rhaegar in all of his stringy haired glory, so what does she do? Why, run off with this stringy haired guy, letting her fiance and her beloved family think that she was kidnapped and raped, to marry a guy who is ALREADY MARRIED to a nice woman with two kids, while consenting to her boyfriend ditching his family and making his kids bastards, and screwing up an entire series of alliances that helps her whole country run. And she couldn't have just, I dont know, sent a freaking LETTER to Robert or her father and let them know what was up? It would have been a pain, considering he was married and she was engaged, but it would have been a better scenario than her dad and brother showing up to "rescue" her, and dying horribly, and starting a giant war that would leave countless people dead and the seeds that would lead to the War of the Five Kings. Granted, something might have happened anyway at some point, given the Mad King, but maybe he just would have died, and the whole thing could have just gone away? If Lyanna was so awesome, why was she ok with this? It sucks that she would have to marry a man she does not love, but its pretty standard for their culture, and if its "marry this frat boy I dont really like that much" or "start a war that leaves half my family and a huge swath of my people dead", I think the right answer is pretty freaking obvious. Did she know what happened to her father and brother at the hands of her father in law, who are new hubbies is still defending? Did she care? 

But you know who was worse? Freaking Rhaegar, who was the asshole who ditched his poor sweet wife, left her and his kids alone with his crazy evil father to run off to marry his piece on the side, IN HIS WIFES HOMELAND, and deliberately annulled their marriage, making his kids bastards and utterly insulting and humiliating poor Elia. And because this wasn't enough, he hid what was really happened, letting his new wife's father and brother be murdered by his evil father, who he still supported despite knowing what a monster he was, and then went to war, which practically tore their country apart and cost the lives of countless innocent people, all because he was thinking with his dick. For a guy everyone (who isn't Robert) talks up as such a great guy, he comes off as a huge asshole in all of this, who didn't care about his responsibilities to his family and country, and just wanted his new, hotter wife. This guy is such a shitty excuse for a monarch, that even Edward VIII is judging him. If anything, all this makes me retroactively feel worse for Robert (who has mourned a woman who cheated on and dumped him for another guy for years) and Ned (who found out that not only is his beloved sister dead, but everything he fought for was a lie, if he knew the implications of what Lyanna said, which I assume he did), and made me think that Lyanna and Rhaegar really deserved each other. What assholes. 

I do think its interesting that they seemed to parallel the wedding flashback with another terrible marital decision involving a Stark, with the wedding of Rob and Talisa, which I`m not sure what they are trying to say. Are they saying these are both romantic, star crossed lovers, or brainless idiots who threw away their responsibilities to their people to get some? Well, I know which side I am on. But, at least Rob was only engaged, and Talisa was single, and they did TRY to do damage control, as half assed as it was. Lyanna and Rhaegar just threw away their responsibilities to their families and people, and went to war, seemingly without caring about the huge cost to their country. Again, what assholes. 

Yeah, this is why I cant say I have too much sympathy for these two selfish creeps. While arranged marriages might offend my modern sensibilities, this is how their culture works, and being a rich and powerful person in their world comes with perks as well as responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is marrying for political gain. This is practical in this society, because it connects these families in time of war or other turbulence, and allows them to come together faster. Its just the way it is here. Granted, some of these matches are clearly awful (Sansa/Ramsey anyone?), but for the most part, this is just what happens, and everyone considers it to be normal. Ned and Cat were arranged, and would have certainly have arranged for marriages for all of their kids. We saw them do it with Sansa and Rob, and they were already promising Arya to some Frey guy to secure their alliance, and they would have done the same with the rest of the kids. If he didn't take the Black, they probably would have even arranged for Jon to marry a second or third daughter of a noble northern house or something, or married Theon to a northern girl to hold up a possible alliance with his people, and everyone knows this, this is just how it is. Everyone else sucks it up, so why couldn't they? They didn't even seem that unhappy with their matches (Elia was apparently perfectly nice, and Robert was apparently a decent guy in his youth), and they knew how important these alliances were. They just didn't care. 

Yeah, I'm in agreement.   It has no impact on Jon's right to be around as a human being nor should he be cursed because of the rather heartless union that produced him.   What Rhaegar and Lyanna did redefined narcissism.  Send.Fucking.Word.  Good god.  Brandon Stark was a complete shit in the books but the manner in which he died was horrific.  The manner in which their father died was fucking horrific.  

The people who died?  Horrific.  The whole thing? Fucking horrific and reprehensible.  Ellia Martell ended up split in fucking two after being raped because of the pair of them.

So there's yet another "Oh man, you'd need seven gods to pray to in order to make peace with your parentage"  aspect to the giant nut punt Jon Snow is about to undergo. 

Dany's not going to be in much better shape.  Look at her life and all she's been through.  Thanks, Bro! Glad you got the girl?  Fucker.   

Also, she's just admitted this season that her father was a madman, she already knew that Viserys was a sadistic lunatic, he was just all she had (thanks to Rhaegar, knowledge to sink in 3...2...1) and now she's primed to find out that her brother got half the kingdom killed on behalf of his dong?  Awesome. 

I don't think she's going to be all "tis the Targ way!" when it's going to turn out that Targ way is the reason that she and Jon are the last of the line except for what he likely just bestowed on her.  People trying to parse the genetics on that baby probably want to stop soon because it's not pretty.  Dany's parents were very closely related and that's after generations of those practices.  Yes, I remember Aegon's desperate quest to introduce new genes and would that he had succeeded better...but even within the story, the good Targs recognized "yeah, this is not a good idea..."  

And Dany knows it leads to potential madness, finding out the Rhaegar is the reason her mother died is not likely to endear her to the idea.   I was honestly kind of relieved to see the actors faux gagging because this is not a pairing that bears up to much romantic scrutiny.   

Jon's existence, the relationship that produced him is the reason everyone he loved prior to this is dead...for the second generation running.  

I really don't think this is a romance.  Yes, it's different than Jaime and Cersei, but on a lot of levels, for the impact to the characters? It has a potential to be much worse because they will understand that Jon's parents are the reason for a lot death and destruction.   I don't think that's going to cause the invention of the sonnet in Westeros. 

10 hours ago, glowbug said:

I'm pretty sure in the books (if they're ever released...not holding my breath) it will be revealed that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife, which Targaryens did historically. The show probably went with the annulment explanation because Targaryen polygamy hasn't been established in the show and they didn't want to waste time explaining it. An annulment wouldn't require any explanation and it wouldn't feel like it came out of no where for non-book readers. 

Yeah, when I started breaking it down, all the damage those two fuckers did, it stopped seeming quite so "Wow, that's ridiculously trite" because it's another trope inversion.   The hidden prince and heir to the throne is likely going to want to peel his skin off when he finds out.  

Poor freaking Jon and also, poor Dany, because if she is knocked up the only reason she wouldn't guzzle a VAT of "moon tea" is she'll know it's her only chance to produce a child...that she'll get to watch with both love and terror as constant companions because her gene pool just got worse.  Wait until she finds out Rhaegar was at fault in that rebellion on a level she's never been told.  

This isn't headed into Greek Tragedy waters, it's paddling there right now.  Jon and Dany didn't do anything wrong, they don't know they are related.  But my gods, did the show just set them up to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's next victims. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Hana Chan]

Hee... according to the TV Tropes site, if Jon ever wanted to list all of his current titles and honorifics (as of this ep's reveal), his introductions would rival Dany's for length.

"Aegon VI Targaryen, Sixth of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, the King in the North and the Vale, King of Winter, the White Wolf, former 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch."

That will be a real mouthful.

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

This is shows that Cersei's consistent in her idiocy: if Cersei had the mountain killed or whatever, the Martells wouldn't have had retaliated. They would've honored the deal and showed goodwill. But, no, Cersei wanted to do things HER way, which led to her daughter's death. And it's fucking hypocritical considering all of that shit she pulled with Sansa and allowed to happen, so I'm not understanding her outrage. Myrcella LOVED being in Dorne, where as Sansa was miserable. Tyrion made a strategic move that SHE sabotaged because it's always her family first rather than making nice and actually compromising. Everyone else seems to do it except her.

My point remains outside of the genetic argument. How we see the cousin, aunt, uncle, niece, nephew thing is purely perception. Because, personally, if I found out someone was my fifth cousin, I'm going to still see them as a cousin and it's a big NO for me and I know plenty of people who feel that way. Back then, the aversion is not like it is now and that's really the U.S.. Even then, outside of the US and East Asia, there aren't restrictive laws or (firm) negative impressions on marrying family outside the sibling, parent, and grandparent relationship. I'm not pro-incest, but my point largely centers on cultural norm as well as how much gene diversity exist between the two. It is valid that Dany and Jon are far more related than your average aunt and nephew, at the same time, his Stark genes brings far more diversity to the Targaryen line than most of the other offspring they've had.  

Some people are able to justify fifth cousins marrying even if they find it gross and for other people, family is family and it's a no. But, my point with saying many people in Westeroes are related is because haven't a few of them practiced first cousin marriage? The stigmas in Westeros is sibling incest and massive inbredding, I believe.

I think the Mountain can be laid at Tywin's door, since he was the one who never wanted to have him handed over to justice even though by his own admission he'd overstepped his orders. It would have cost him nothing to have the Mountain be beheaded and given to Oberyn as a gesture of goodwill, but he didn't want to bend even that much lest it be considered a weakness...but Cersei would never blame Tywin for anything.

As for the whole incest thing, the horror toward it is a question of degrees. I've known first cousins who married and were very nice people. Two of their children died in infancy (which illustrates the trouble with such marriages) but the couple were lovely people and so are their living children and I wouldn't feel any rejection toward another such couple. Aunt and nephew (as well as uncle and niece) is another degree closer to disgust and rejection; there ARE some cases in our society where it has been legal, but only after special dispensation, showing that it is more taboo, but it still doesn't evoke the eye-gouging Oedipal horror of closer degrees of incest.

Funny thing is, our society (and, I think, most societies) have a stronger taboo against violating intergenerational family boundaries (like parent-children) than against sibling or sibling-like incest within a generation. This is true even though there is LESS genetic danger involved in incest with a parent (with whom the child shares only half his genes) than incest with a sibling (with whom ALL the genes are in common). The Egyptians and, I think, other royal dynasties allowed sibling incest but drew the line at parental incest as too much, and I don't think there is even ONE culture in the world that condones it.  Likely the lesser taboo against uncle/niece incest is that it reminds us too much of a parental/child violation of boundaries, due to age and previous relationship. Since neither of these apply to Jon and Dany, while I think it would be upsetting to Jon to find out their relationship, I don't think it would be a dealbreaker. If Jon is told about the examples in his world of avunculate marriage that have undoubtedly taken place in both his and our world (with religious and legal dispensation) even among non-Targaryens, I think he could deal with it.

Another thing that bothered me about Rhaegar and Lyanna - they were married by the Seven, even though Lyanna presumably followed the old religion. One more boundary she was violating to bring this about.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

The lack of wildfire as an option to be discussed at least is a curious one, especially since it was used by Cersei with the Sept and Tyrion at Blackwater. It's been well established 

That is an excellent point!

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

I don't think Cersei or Qyburn will offer it up as an strategic idea to use against the WWs and the Army of the Dead.  But Tyrion knows!  AND....Melisandre and the rest of the servants of R'hollor are still allied on Dany's side, although currently all in Essos.  But surely their magic might include the manufacture of wildfire.   Wildfire is a Targaryan invention, maybe Missandei can discover wildfire's origins in an old Valyrian book or something as well. 

I'm actually kind of shocked that I haven't seen anyone mention it before you have, here.  Not the writers (via our characters), nor any of the fans on various message boards. 

A thousand upvotes for you!  Can't you imagine the Army of the Dead being funneled through a cold, wintry pass and ambushed in a spectacular series of wildfire detonations?   Spare the dragons, nuke the enemy with wildfire.

[MrWhyt]

28 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

To be fair, the dude is surfing randomly through time -- I think he has to focus on something to actually see it.

I don't know if he's surfing randomly but he definitely has to focus on something. It's like the internet, we have a vast wealth of information in front of us but the less we know about something the harder it's going to be for us to find it. There is also the question of time, if Bran "watches" a 5 minute scene from the past does that take 5 minutes of "Real" time? if so he's never going to be able to know everything. There is a lot of "present" and even more "past".

Edited August 29, 2017 by MrWhyt

[Nanrad]

This Lyanna and Rhaegar thing truly bothers me. Someone mentioned that if Arya had done what Lyanna did, people would be cheering (to which was rebutted with an argument I wholeheartedly support), but not only would Arya not hide away in the manner Lyanna did, she also wouldn't run off with a married man who is a father of two. That just wouldn't have happened. And finding ut that her brother and father were killed because she would want to know what's going on with her family, that shit wouldn't have happened. 

It's hard for me to be happy that Lyanna exercised her freewill when it led to so much destruction. I don't give a shit about Rhaegar because he fucked over his other family. I understand that if Lyanna didn't exercise freewill that means that she was most likely kidnapped and raped, but God that, situation is truly fucked. I'm not even sure more backstory would make them sympathetic. 

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 

Dany's not going to be in much better shape.  Look at her life and all she's been through.  Thanks, Bro! Glad you got the girl?  Fucker.   

Also, she's just admitted this season that her father was a madman, she already knew that Viserys was a sadistic lunatic, he was just all she had (thanks to Rhaegar, knowledge to sink in 3...2...1) and now she's primed to find out that her brother got half the kingdom killed on behalf of his dong?  Awesome. 

I don't think she's going to be all "tis the Targ way!" when it's going to turn out that Targ way is the reason that she and Jon are the last of the line except for what he likely just bestowed on her.  People trying to parse the genetics on that baby probably want to stop soon because it's not pretty.  Dany's parents were very closely related and that's after generations of those practices.  Yes, I remember Aegon's desperate quest to introduce new genes and would that he had succeeded better...but even within the story, the good Targs recognized "yeah, this is not a good idea..."  

And Dany knows it leads to potential madness, finding out the Rhaegar is the reason her mother died is not likely to endear her to the idea.   I was honestly kind of relieved to see the actors faux gagging because this is not a pairing that bears up to much romantic scrutiny.   

 

But Dany knew all along (at least in the books) that her mother DID die because of what Rhaegar did - and she still romanticized him. I don't remember her exact words, but she thought that while Rhaegar was conceivably overstepping a few boundaries in seizing the Northern girl, she thought of it as an act of love and IIRC even thought that no woman could have resisted such magnificence swooping down on her. From poor Danaerys' history, it's understandable she'd romanticize rape, to a degree, since her first marriage started that way. And she was always told wonderful things about Rhaegar, so her finding out that he DIDN'T rape Lyanna can only improve her view of Rhaegar.

As an aside, the fact that even DANY thought of Rhaegar's possession of Lyanna as non-consensual shows that Aerys and the Red Keep probably weren't aware of that marriage any more than the Starks were.

[stillshimpy]

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

. The Egyptians and, I think, other royal dynasties allowed sibling incest but drew the line at parental incest as too much, and I don't think there is even ONE culture in the world that condones it. 

The other thing about that is the Targaryens have been practicing incest for hundreds of years (I'm being kind, I know that it is supposed to be thousands) but the Egyptians are the only real world parallel and good grief, you do not want to delve too deeply into what that yielded.  One of the last pharaohs from the "woooo...more incest....we think it makes us godly!" line had, and I'm not shitting you, a club foot, a cleft palate and a curved spine (as well as some incidental madness).  

From what was described with the Targaryens, it's a miracle they weren't just spawning cuttlefish by the end of that crap and Dany is very much from the "Oh good, at least it wasn't a cuttlefish" side of the Targs.  

GRRM sucks at research.  Tryion and his circus antics in the first book are not the only proof of that, he obviously did not look very deeply into what the incestuous practices in the royal Egypt line yielded but they are the reason that incest was so frowned on when he decided to go down this path.  

Thank goodness there are only six episode left and enough action going on that they can't dwell on this but the behind the scenes stuff pretty clearly indicates that the characters involved are unlikely to celebrate this.  

Also, even non-emotive Bran looked like he was in the past, trying not to blow spectral chunks while watching that.  

If Sansa had done what Lyanna did, people would have lost their minds to fury.  That's the part that struck me: Lyanna Stark is a combination of Sansa and Arya.  Not "like Arya" she's just as much like Sansa.  

A dream of pretty romance got her family killed. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Interesting. Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret then? He was the crown prince -- why not declare he wants her for a second wife, regardless of what Robert Baratheon wanted, and make the Starks hand her over? He was in the power position as the future king, after all.

Who says he kept it a secret?  There is still the possibility that certain people acted to keep things quiet for their own purposes that are not understood as of yet.  Everyone is so quick to attack Rhaegar and Lyanna, yet the story isn't really fleshed out yet.

LF appears to be unlikely at this point, but we still have Varys on the screen for quite unknown reasons thus far.  We know Robert Barratheon was quite obsessed with Lyanna, so much that it tormented him all of his days.  We also notably still have Gendry in the mix, quite improbably after quite a long hiatus -- and we stopped for his onscreen introduction to Jon (which the show isn't focused on in this hurry up, we're almost out of here season) and a significant history with the Stark daughter who looks quite like Lyanna.  What kind of details might pop out if someone utters the right search terms in front of google Bran?  What if Howland Reed does show up after all?  

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So about the lannister brothers, I love that Jamie was the first one to defend his brother once Euron started  bullying Tyrion even if I do have to give Dany Jon and the rest of that crew back there the side eye for not saying anything.

Based on Jon's initial meeting of Tyrion back in WF in season one it would make no sense for Jon to say anything to Euron.  Tyrion is the one who gave Jon the primer in never allowing your adversaries' words to get to you.

[blackwing]

It's been a while since I read the books.  I did recently within the last year or so read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" which was about Sir Duncan and his squire named Egg, who turned out to really be Aegon Targaryen.  Someone please kindly remind me who he is in the house.  I'm assuming he's Daenerys' grandfather or great-grandfather?

If Jon's real name is Aegon Targaryen and he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he just slept with his hot aunt.  Although I guess this is a world in which brother and sister sleep with each other, so maybe it's not as icky as I had first thought when I was watching.

Someone also kindly remind me, since it's been years since I read the latest book, I vaguely remember that there was a character named Aegon that claimed to be the son of Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.  I think he was presumed dead but is now an adult?  It seems like this character is absent from the show, at least for now?

[stillshimpy]

32 minutes ago, screamin said:

But Dany knew all along (at least in the books) that her mother DID die because of what Rhaegar did - and she still romanticized him. I don't remember her exact words, but she thought that while Rhaegar was conceivably overstepping a few boundaries in seizing the Northern girl, she thought of it as an act of love and IIRC even thought that no woman could have resisted such magnificence swooping down on her. From poor Danaerys' history, it's understandable she'd romanticize rape, to a degree, since her first marriage started that way. And she was always told wonderful things about Rhaegar, so her finding out that he DIDN'T rape Lyanna can only improve her view of Rhaegar.

 

When the story starts, Dany's little better than a child.  She didn't understand that her father was a madman who needed to die.   We actually don't know much about what Dany was told, but we know that she was told the Targaryen loyalist version.  

Again, Sansa is practically dragged through the streets for being a silly girl with romantic notions.  Dany's worldview has had to expand from the time that she thought about The Usurper's Dogs but her initial view on the matter is ludicrously self-entitled in the manner of a very young adolescent. It was also conveyed to her by someone who was so nuts, watching his brain melt was about the only way to feel safe from him. 

This past season we watched her admit that her father was evil.  She's about to find out Bro wasn't far behind. 

Dany thought that before she was the woman being treated as the bone to be won in a dog contest, so there's that too.  She's had a lot of real world experience with people trying to put her in the position she thought Lyanna Stark was in...she didn't like it.  I can't see that getting better with the knowledge that they loved each other.   Dany has had to sacrifice her own personal happiness for the greater good, her sympathy for Rhaegar is likely to be trumped by the inclusion of what would pass for empathy...only Dany keeps passing the tests Rhaegar failed. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy