S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, Miles said:

 

There is also no indication that Bran has some kind of permanent mark on him. He let himself get touched, which burst the little magic bubble he was in, in that very moment. The night king could penetrate that bubble by using Bran as a conduit. There is no indication that they are currently still connected.

I believe  the fact that night king saw him and was able to shoo Bran away from spying on him earlier this season says otherwise. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, herbz said:

The North in the show makes no sense to me. Isn't their whole point that they don't do petty political squabbling like the South? 

Don't even get me started on that. The north on the show is pathetic. 

[Tikichick]

6 hours ago, Francie said:

I disagree wholly. Sending Myrcella to Dorne was putting her life in jeopardy from the beginning. As Bronn told Jaime, "I don't think you realize just how much the Dornish hate your family." It was, essentially, a death sentence. Oberyn living or not, and his toothless promise (he is a man who fostered Lannister hate and armed his own daugthers with weapons, by the way), I have no doubt Myrcella was not coming back to King's Landing.  Cersei knew it, which is why she was so furious with Tyrion for sending her there in the first place.

Second, with the talk of Lyanna and what limited options she had, it kills me a bit that Tyrion decided to play games with Myrcella's life by sending her away.  Sure, it was a bit safer during the siege, but he -- the woman's uncle, and not even her parent -- made a decision as to whom this girl would marry and where she would live for the rest of her life.  To me, because he took on that entitlement, he bears responsibility for whatever followed. 

To give it a bit more context, I believe Bronn's comment to Jamie was in the aftermath of Oberyn's death -- which was admittedly much more heightened than the prior state of affairs. 

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

To give it a bit more context, I believe Bronn's comment to Jamie was in the aftermath of Oberyn's death -- which was admittedly much more heightened than the prior state of affairs. 

Bronn was clearly relaying information he had learned when he was in Dorne himself. 

It wasn't like Bronn could check the pulse of Dorne on Twitter or pick up the Dorne Post.  He knew from experience that the Dornish hated the Lannisters. 

Ellara was the one triggered by Oberyn, even though the idiot only had himself to blame.

[Haleth]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Don't even get me started on that. The north on the show is pathetic. 

I miss Wyman Manderly. 

The North is so remote they've pretty much been left to their own devices in the past. Bend the knee or not, Dany isn't likely to interfere in the business of the Northern lords once the fighting ends. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, Francie said:

Bronn was clearly relaying information he had learned when he was in Dorne himself. 

It wasn't like Bronn could check the pulse of Dorne on Twitter or pick up the Dorne Post.  He knew from experience that the Dornish hated the Lannisters. 

Ellara was the one triggered by Oberyn, even though the idiot only had himself to blame.

Until Oberyn was killed Myrcella was happily in love with Trystane and Prince Doran hadn't a single thought to have her killed, not at all.  If Oberyn had lived Myrcella would have also, despite the Martell hatred of the Lannisters over Elia and her babies.    

[HunterHunted]

20 minutes ago, Miles said:

There is no indication that the enchantments on the wall are the same that protected the three eyed raven. I'd expect the enchantsments on the wall to be made of stronger stuff and be more numerous.

There is also no indication that Bran has some kind of permanent mark on him. He let himself get touched, which burst the little magic bubble he was in, in that very moment.

There is no evidence that what you are contending is true either. You are assuming your argument is true because you want it to be, but we've seen no evidence that the enchantments on the wall are stronger or different from the ones in the cave.

We know that the Children banded together with men to stop the white walkers thanks to the cave paintings on Dragonstone. We know that the wall is enchanted and thousands of years old. The wall is explicitly and primarily meant to stop the army of the dead.  We also know that the cave of the three eyed raven was enchanted and protected by the Children. The three eyed raven is less than 200 years old. What's more likely that the Children would decide 200 years ago to randomly enchant the cave of the three eyed raven with protections that are weaker than the protections they used on the Wall that have worked for 8000 years or that the Children used the same protections on the Wall and the cave?

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Until Oberyn was killed Myrcella was happily in love with Trystane and Prince Doran hadn't a single thought to have her killed, not at all.  If Oberyn had lived Myrcella would have also, despite the Martell hatred of the Lannisters over Elia and her babies.    

You'll get no argument from me that Doran intended no harm to Myrcella (though book Doran kept her hidden away after her disfigurement and did not notify her mother that she had been nearly assassinated).

But it's convenient to hide behind "everything was fine until it wasn't." Tyrion and Cersei spoke about how dangerous it was to send her there. Myrcella would be only as protected as Doran could protect her. And neither in the book or show was she adequately protected.

It was dangerous. 

Tyrion sent her anyway. 

She died. 

The end.

[HunterHunted]

27 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Did they leave out all talk of Maester Aemon until next season because they wanted to get the Jon reveal out of the way and get as much impact out of Jon realizing he had more than Benjen at the Wall?

Yes, I'm a very bitter person that that sweet old man got no mentions at all.

I did love that character and he wasn't wrong. A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I miss Wyman Manderly. 

The North is so remote they've pretty much been left to their own devices in the past. Bend the knee or not, Dany isn't likely to interfere in the business of the Northern lords once the fighting ends. 

Wyman Manderly is ridiculously awesome. They took his plots and spread them around to Arya and Lyanna Mormont and made him look like a faithless douche. And Robett Glover is raising an army to help take Winterfell back, even ahead of trying to take his home back from the ironborn. That's not even mentioning what the other northern lords are up to. 

I doubt Dany would interfere either with the north, especially after she sees that the remaining Starks are more than capable of handling things. They've been doing their own thing for like 300 years and no one but Jaehaerys and Alysanne ever bothered visiting there. It seems that even Rhaegar who believed the long night was coming didn't visit Winterfell or the Wall, which honestly, you'd think he'd wanna assess the situation at the Wall and start fixing the castles and sending people to man them. Basically what his son was doing before he got stabbed repeatedly. 

[CloudySky]

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

True to form, the plot that sent him off was really dumb.  How and when did Sansa figure all this out?  What prompted this sudden revisiting of things like Littlefinger’s dealings with Ned Stark?  There’s not even a hint of an explanation.  It would tend to indicate that (assuming GRRM ever publishes the next book(s)) we’ll eventually get a more narratively satisfying story of Sansa outwitting Littlefinger, though.

I just started pagecatching, so sorry if someone already said this. I figured when her conclusion to the game he led her to was Arya becomes lady of Winterfell...she started second guessing and analyzing again. Because she knows that isn't Arya and Arya even said so when she ''threatened'' her. So she played the question game with LF and obviously had off screen conversations with Bran and Arya to confirm everything. The scene with Sam proved Bran can visit a specific moment in time to search for an answer. Maybe he even knew already and was waiting for Sansa to come to him. But they wanted to mislead the audience, so that entire storyline got told in the worst way possible.

[Blonde Gator]

6 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

A+ for Cersei's short-sleeved coat.

Just finished my rewatch on my wide screen computer, the DETAILS in this episode were outstanding.

Costumes.  OMG!  Cersei's outfit looked like some sort of space-aged wetsuit, except the stays to keep her skirt "out" showed.  Oops.  Both Cersei & Dany changed into new outfits after the Dragon pit, which made me laugh.  The detail on all of the armor was amazing, Lannister, Cersei's Queen's Guard, Unsullied, and the Dothraki looked amazing.  It was apparent to me that there weren't any noticeable Northern Lords in the Great Hall when Little Finger got capped.  That should have been the tell.  It was Vale (Bronze Yohn) and the Vale knights.  I looked hard for any recognizable northerners, and the only out-of-place person was Little Finger propping up a wall.

The walk to the Dragon Pit was AMAZING.  I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be on the crew who scouts locations for this series.  The beaches on "Dragonstone", as well as that castle under-structure, and the ruins of the dragon pit, I couldn't imagine places like that exist.

The production values on this series will never be matched on Television again, and GOT is also setting a high bar for movies.

I know we were all ravenous to reach the last episode, and a bit of a wrap on the story, but I can't recommend highly enough to rewatch, to just pay attention to they myriad tiny details that make this show shine.  Walls/doors/windows of the Red Keep, map floor, layout of Cersei's map room, Dragonstone Throne Room.  I'm going to have to watch it again and again. 

I'd give some of the writing maybe a 7 of 10.  But on the details (oops, I missed close up detail of Drogon as Dany dismounted, whoa!), I'd give it a 35 out of 10. 

[Helena Dax]

I've been thinking about Sansa and Littlefinger because well, I just didn't get what had happened there. I mean, she already knew he was a murderer and a traitor, so why did she choose that moment to act against him? Why did she let him live for weeks? Now I think that she was giving him another chance. He had come to Winterfell with Robin's army to help her and she was honoring that. But when she realized that he was trying to mess with her and Arya, she understood it was time to finish him. 

I also think that LF made a serious mistake when he told her "sometimes I play a little game and I think the worst of someone" or whatever. Because she did exactly that, right there. I'm not sure she understood how much he was trying to use her until then.

[JustCrazy]

20 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Nothing screams serious romance than one that is between an Aunt and her Nephew.

My eyes, my eyes!  What a weird feeling it was watching the two having sex, with Jon's parentage being intercut.  I don't even think there's a word to describe it.  I watched the scene with my stinkface on.  Not.sexy.at.all!  

[Pogojoco]

9 minutes ago, JustCrazy said:

My eyes, my eyes!  What a weird feeling it was watching the two having sex, with Jon's parentage being intercut.  I don't even think there's a word to describe it.  I watched the scene with my stinkface on.  Not.sexy.at.all!  

I was creeped out. At least with Jaime and Cersei, they know what they are to each other. This is creepy. 

 

I think my throwaway favourite part was in the bit with Euron trying to taunt Theon and Theon telling Tyrion Euron's dwarf jokes weren't even good. Also, Jaime's "Believe me, I know." look at Tyrion who was all "What's with this guy?" 

[TobinAlbers]

9 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I've been thinking about Sansa and Littlefinger because well, I just didn't get what had happened there. I mean, she already knew he was a murderer and a traitor, so why did she choose that moment to act against him? Why did she let him live for weeks? Now I think that she was giving him another chance. He had come to Winterfell with Robin's army to help her and she was honoring that. But when she realized that he was trying to mess with her and Arya, she understood it was time to finish him. 

I also think that LF made a serious mistake when he told her "sometimes I play a little game and I think the worst of someone" or whatever. Because she did exactly that, right there. I'm not sure she understood how much he was trying to use her until then.

I think she basically had to keep him close 1) in order to keep the Knights of the Vale and 2) because as slimy as he is, he's been useful until he's not. Once she could keep the Knights pledged to her and House Stark independently of LF, she could drop him. And the way to get them to align with her was not just revealing his killing Lysa but showing he was an accessory to a lot of crimes and murders to the point that the Vale could justify withdrawing their support.

Sansa finally realized that LF had served any useful purpose if he was trying to drive a wedge between her and Jon and her and Arya. Now that she was home. He was undermining Sansa and her family's stability in keeping Winterfell. He had to go.

But she also had to make sure that she didn't alienate the Vale and little Robin who adores his Uncle Petyr. Once she, Bran, and Arya had enough evidence to lead him into publicly giving him enough rope to hang himself, she could be rid of him without any consequences or even worries from Robin as they could now tell him, he killed your mommy and Aunt Catelyn. All of them wanted him gone.

[Heckler52317]

19 hours ago, that one guy said:

Did the White Walkers even have another plan? Or has this been the plan ever since the dragons hatched in Season 1?

Thank you! That's driving me kinda crazy. Because as outlandish as Operation Kidnap a Wight and  Bring it Back (Operation KaWaBiB) was, Operation Knowing what they will do let's lay a trap and that way I get a dragon to burn the wall down with...what might plan B have been?

[ACW]

20 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Add to the list of things that made Littlefinger's execution & the entire Winterfell Stark Sister plot this season so unsatisfyingly fan-ficcy:

Whatever happened to Stark way:

"Rules for *woman* who passes sentence still in committee."

[Minneapple]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

The production values on this series will never be matched on Television again, and GOT is also setting a high bar for movies.

I know we were all ravenous to reach the last episode, and a bit of a wrap on the story, but I can't recommend highly enough to rewatch, to just pay attention to they myriad tiny details that make this show shine.  Walls/doors/windows of the Red Keep, map floor, layout of Cersei's map room, Dragonstone Throne Room.  I'm going to have to watch it again and again. 

I'd give some of the writing maybe a 7 of 10.  But on the details (oops, I missed close up detail of Drogon as Dany dismounted, whoa!), I'd give it a 35 out of 10. 

I agree partly.

All of the production, costumes, sets, CGI -- it's all terrific, all so well thought-out. The settings are gorgeous, the dragons are jaw-dropping, the cinematography is amazing. The Winterfell scenes in the godswood, with Bran and Sansa and Arya earlier this season? Gorgeous. Viserion burning down the wall and the army of the dead marching? Wow.

But I'd give the writing this season a 4. It disappoints me greatly that a show with movie-quality production values can produce such crappy scripts. The Winterfell plot this season made little sense. Bran is completely useless except when the writers decide he needs to be useful for an information dump. If Jon and Dany are some epic love story I missed the epic love part. If they're a tragic romance I missed the romance part. Their romance was filled with awkward dialogue and then suddenly a sex scene. But that's the way things have happened this season. There's little emotional payoff because they're so busy rushing from Point A to Point C that they forgot Point B along the way. 

[Pogojoco]

9 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

Thank you! That's driving me kinda crazy. Because as outlandish as Operation Kidnap a Wight and  Bring it Back (Operation KaWaBiB) was, Operation Knowing what they will do let's lay a trap and that way I get a dragon to burn the wall down with...what might plan B have been?

Yeah, it made me extra annoyed at the KaWaBIB thing. Like, way to give the Night King the one thing he was missing, team. Way to go. 

 

Maybe Sam should hit the books and figure out how the Wall actually works. Part of me just sort of wonder why they didn't build defense weapons of dragons and wildfire to rain down on the wight army. Or something. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Just finished my rewatch on my wide screen computer, the DETAILS in this episode were outstanding.

Costumes.  OMG!  Cersei's outfit looked like some sort of space-aged wetsuit, except the stays to keep her skirt "out" showed.  Oops.  Both Cersei & Dany changed into new outfits after the Dragon pit, which made me laugh.  The detail on all of the armor was amazing, Lannister, Cersei's Queen's Guard, Unsullied, and the Dothraki looked amazing.  It was apparent to me that there weren't any noticeable Northern Lords in the Great Hall when Little Finger got capped.  That should have been the tell.  It was Vale (Bronze Yohn) and the Vale knights.  I looked hard for any recognizable northerners, and the only out-of-place person was Little Finger propping up a wall.

The walk to the Dragon Pit was AMAZING.  I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be on the crew who scouts locations for this series.  The beaches on "Dragonstone", as well as that castle under-structure, and the ruins of the dragon pit, I couldn't imagine places like that exist.

The production values on this series will never be matched on Television again, and GOT is also setting a high bar for movies.

I know we were all ravenous to reach the last episode, and a bit of a wrap on the story, but I can't recommend highly enough to rewatch, to just pay attention to they myriad tiny details that make this show shine.  Walls/doors/windows of the Red Keep, map floor, layout of Cersei's map room, Dragonstone Throne Room.  I'm going to have to watch it again and again. 

I'd give some of the writing maybe a 7 of 10.  But on the details (oops, I missed close up detail of Drogon as Dany dismounted, whoa!), I'd give it a 35 out of 10. 

I agree about the production; the costumes, cinematography, and CGI. The mediocre hairstyles and unattractive cheap wigs cost them points with me.

Edited August 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[Pogojoco]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I agree partly.

All of the production, costumes, sets, CGI -- it's all terrific, all so well thought-out. The settings are gorgeous, the dragons are jaw-dropping, the cinematography is amazing. The Winterfell scenes in the godswood, with Bran and Sansa and Arya earlier this season? Gorgeous. Viserion burning down the wall and the army of the dead marching? Wow.

But I'd give the writing this season a 4. It disappoints me greatly that a show with movie-quality production values can produce such crappy scripts. The Winterfell plot this season made little sense. Bran is completely useless except when the writers decide he needs to be useful for an information dump. If Jon and Dany are some epic love story I missed the epic love part. If they're a tragic romance I missed the romance part. Their romance was filled with awkward dialogue and then suddenly a sex scene. But that's the way things have happened this season. There's little emotional payoff because they're so busy rushing from Point A to Point C that they forgot Point B along the way. 

 

I agree- the show has really never been more beautiful to look at. The "Beyond the Wall" episode was probably the most beautiful, but also the most dumb. And, sure enough, throw Cersei and Tyrion back together, and things get interesting. That felt like classic GOT. 

[Helena Dax]

Cersei looked pretty excited about the elephants, but I don't think they fare well in Antartic environments, which is what Westeros is about to become so...

[Heckler52317]

3 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Maybe Sam should hit the books and figure out how the Wall actually works.

And maybe if the Children of the Forest left a bestiary entry or notes of some kind detailing how to kill the Night King. He's got dragonglass in him, I worry that won't work 

[MissLucas]

Well, I'm impressed: Cersei seems to be the only person in King's Landing who's able to count to three.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

There are a lot of ways this could end, but I don't think an aunt marrying and ruling with her nephew is going to be how this thing is going to end. 

I bet that if there is a baby - and there will be a baby - they will marry. There is no way Jon will allow his child to go through the same thing he did, and there is no way Dany would have her child be a bastard. Even if they don't end together, and I don't think they will, I think they will marry.

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. Only the mediocre hairstyles and unattractive cheap wigs cost them points with me.

Yep.  Even Tryion's hair bothers me.  The only characters with good hair (probably because it's their own) are Jaime, Jon, Arya, Brienne, Missandei, Tormund (wow!), and the rest of the minor male characters. 

Dany's wig is beyond ridiculous.  She has enough hair in those braids alone for 4 other Valyrians.  Sansa' wig looks super wiggy, too, particularly in the early season when she was sitting next to Jon at the table in the Great Hall.  Cersei truly like a Romulan (h/t to whomever mentioned it here a while back!).....can't someone make Cersei wash her damn wighat?

Stray thought.

I wonder if Missandei will be able to read the runes in the North.  They are from the First Men, and Missandei speaks many languages of Essos, many of which must be derived from both the First Men and the Andals.   There were runes on the Stark chopping block (beheading) in the first episode of the series, runes in the Dragon Glass cave, Bronze Yohn Royce has ancient armor covered in runes, and so on.  There may be information to be had in the North, if only someone could read them.

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

And, sure enough, throw Cersei and Tyrion back together, and things get interesting. That felt like classic GOT. 

Yes! That scene was definitely a highlight of the finale. (Other than Littlefinger dying, lol.) That was a beautifully written scene, with really good dialogue -- one of the few great character scenes this season. Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage acted the hell out of it. 

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa actually implicitly offered her consent to Tyrion on their wedding night by starting to undress.  

Sansa was a hostage.  A hostage can't consent.  And Tyrion knew that. 

Here's the scene:

https://youtu.be/eD-eFSQD7Mw

Tyrion says he won't share her bed, until she wants him too.  He knows she doesn't want it.  She even says, what if I never want it.  So she clearly doesn't want to have sex with him now.  She's not consenting.  She knew it, Tyrion knew it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[Macbeth]

I  did love how Drogon was way too big to have a cage match in that arena.  He landed on it and it was crumbling underneath his feet.  But it sad that the dragons just withered away as they were made into slaves. 

I am so glad Bran emphasized that in no way is Jon Snow is a bastard.  He is legitimate.  Load off my mind.  As far as the incest - eh- more important that he is not a bastard.  

When people start calling John  - Aegon - he is going to long for the days when they called him Bastard.

For someone who always wanted to be part of the Stark family - Bran's news will be heartbreaking.

[domina89]

I would have loved an aerial shot of the dragons flying over KL like Bran saw in his vision.  That would have been a nice touch.

[LanceM]

14 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yep.  Even Tryion's hair bothers me.  The only characters with good hair (probably because it's their own) are Jaime, Jon, Arya, Brienne, Missandei, Tormund (wow!), and the rest of the minor male characters. 

Dany's wig is beyond ridiculous.  She has enough hair in those braids alone for 4 other Valyrians.  Sansa' wig looks super wiggy, too, particularly in the early season when she was sitting next to Jon at the table in the Great Hall.  Cersei truly like a Romulan (h/t to whomever mentioned it here a while back!).....can't someone make Cersei wash her damn wighat?

Stray thought.

I wonder if Missandei will be able to read the runes in the North.  They are from the First Men, and Missandei speaks many languages of Essos, many of which must be derived from both the First Men and the Andals.   There were runes on the Stark chopping block (beheading) in the first episode of the series, runes in the Dragon Glass cave, Bronze Yohn Royce has ancient armor covered in runes, and so on.  There may be information to be had in the North, if only someone could read them.

I believe this is on purpose. She is wearing it like Drogo. Just as she does in the books until it gets burned off in ADWD.

 

[Francie]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

So are you suggesting a Jaime/Sansa marriage?

I wouldn't go so far as that. 

Here's where I come from when I watch this show.  I see it based on the York/Lancaster war. Martin has said as much.  And I know how that ends -- with a marriage of a male Lancaster, who identifies as a Tudor, and a pretty, young red head named Elizabeth.  So, from the start, I've had my eye on Sansa.  I'm not pulling the trigger, but I keep that in the back of my mind wherever she's concerned. 

I've had my eye on Tyrion as well.  He's a Lancaster, errr Lannister. It's an oddball, non-obvious fit.  He's also modeled after Richard III, but I know not to be too wedded to anything fitting on all four corners. George RR Martin doesn't have to hamper himself by modeling a character on only one historical figure. 

But that odd matching of both identifying themselves as "slow learners." Like I said,that perked my ears. It's a symmetry that the writers are starting to play with the audience. Who else said that? Oh, that's right! Is it with design that the showrunners want the audience to start connecting the two?  It's too early to say. 

But I wondered what others thought -- if they noted that echo as well. 

That's the long answer to your question. 

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

And he did, so they can just get over it. They named him their king and he acted in what he thought was in the north's best interest. 

In that case, if that's your definition of "forge an alliance,  I'd love to have you forge an alliance of $10 with me.  I'll PM you my address, and I'll expect your complete surrender of your money to me at any time. 

[Andromeda]

22 hours ago, doram said:

She didn't have her menses. She had a miscarriage. 

Yes. A miscarriage for sure. I've known since then she wasn't barren. She ate some unusual berries that were an abortifacent. Then she had bad bleeding and really bad cramps. She was really naive and didn't get it, though.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Andromeda
some berries are not snow berries...

[stillshimpy]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa actually implicitly offered her consent to Tyrion on their wedding night by starting to undress.  She didn't want to do it, but I think she felt it was her duty.  You can consent to things you don't want to do.  You could argue that Tywin was, in a sense, trying to "rape" Tyrion.  He put tremendous pressure on Tyrion to have sex with Sansa, and Tyrion put no pressure on Sansa.  

In most of those arranged, political, marriages, it probably wouldn't be "rape" as much as the women either being fine with it, trying to make the best of it,  or reluctantly doing their "duty".  

Lyanna seemed to be a very free spirited, strong willed woman, so Robert might have actually had to rape her, as she might never have consented.  

Already covered by another poster but that isn't consent.  When you're forced to marry someone, consent is out of the window and it is out of the window and into the stratosphere for a 14-year-old hostage forced to marry the enemy of her family.   But we've all been around this rather gross tree a million times.  

4 hours ago, screamin said:

AFAIK, Elizabeth I never actually went into battle, though she made great speeches to the troops, and history recognizes her as a competent queen. I think Sansa, due to the politician position, single status and red hair, might be intended as a deliberate parallel.

You're correct, Elizabeth I never went into battle.  Henry VIII was the last monarch of England to ride into battle at all. 

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I miss Wyman Manderly. 

The North is so remote they've pretty much been left to their own devices in the past. Bend the knee or not, Dany isn't likely to interfere in the business of the Northern lords once the fighting ends. 

I miss the noble fat man mightily.  I've been so upset that they divvied up his awesomeness between Arya and Lady Mormont.  It would have added a great deal to show someone who took a freaking oath seriously. 

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

I was creeped out. At least with Jaime and Cersei, they know what they are to each other. This is creepy. 

 

I think my throwaway favourite part was in the bit with Euron trying to taunt Theon and Theon telling Tyrion Euron's dwarf jokes weren't even good. Also, Jaime's "Believe me, I know." look at Tyrion who was all "What's with this guy?" 

Yeah, there's an implicit violation of both characters that made me really uncomfortable.  I don't think either of them is going to be all, "Well, what are you going to do?  Get married! Who cares about close blood ties!"  and so having the "close kin! Woot!" voiceover really made me wince. 

Jon has been a greatly improved character since he no longer suffered from the "Who am I? I belong NOWHERE!" angst took a powder.  I wasn't exactly jazzed to see what was likely a return engagement of Jon SnowSandTargs identity crisis.  

I like the character but ...yeah, that's going to be an awkward reunion with Bran. 

"Hi Bran!  I'm so glad to see you, the last time I saw you, you were in a co..." 

"I'm the three eyed Raven." 

"Uh..."

"And a tree." 

"Wuh...." 

"And you're plugging your aunt." 

"Could you maybe go back into a coma, please?" 

[Heckler52317]

26 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I would have loved an aerial shot of the dragons flying over KL like Bran saw in his vision.  That would have been a nice touch.

Makes me think it'll happen next season?

[TaurusRose]

13 minutes ago, Francie said:

In that case, if that's your definition of "forge an alliance,  I'd love to have you forge an alliance of $10 with me.  I'll PM you my address, and I'll expect your complete surrender of your money to me at any time. 

This makes absolutely no sense to me, so I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[ulkis]

If Jon and Dany do have kids, plural, I really hope they add in an epilogue that none of them marry each other lol.

Edited August 29, 2017 by ulkis

[Paradigm14]

15 hours ago, arjumand said:

Crap, I keep forgetting about that. Maybe Bran is so super-three-eyed-raveny now that some of his memories have been erased to make up for new downloads.

Re. Jon's "real name" - I'm getting really annoyed at people on Tumblr going on about it being ridiculous that Rhaegar chose the same name of his dead son for his new son. Why is everyone assuming that only the dad gets to name the baby, rather than the woman whose body the kid just came out of? Sure, she's northern, but she seems to have drunk Rhaegar's 'Prince that was promised' Kool-Aid, and what better name for a boy with a DESTINY than to be named after Aegon the Conqueror? Ugh.

Because none of us believe Lyanna was that stupid. We still don't have the real story of how they got together.  People are still assuming the worst.

[TobinAlbers]

Rewatching the finale it still cracks me up that as *soon* as Jamie hears that dragon roar he is up out of his chair with a quickness looking around like crazy trying to spot it even though he knows he'd be dead meat before he could get anywhere to safety.

Edited August 29, 2017 by TobinAlbers

[guybareli]

A little fan art!

https://www.instagram.com/guybareli/

 

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

I was creeped out. At least with Jaime and Cersei, they know what they are to each other. This is creepy. 

So, because Jaime and Cersei know their relationship is an abomination as far as most of Westeros is concerned you find sex between them less creepy than two people who have never met until recently, and have no idea they have a blood relationship?  We have information that they do not.  So while you may find it creepy, Jon and Dany are not committing any wrong based on the information they have. If you look at the situation in that light, there'd be less "creepy" pearl clutching comments, and more empathy for the people involved and how this will impact them going forward.

[Francie]

5 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Rewatching the finale it still cracks me up that as *soon* as Jamie hears that dragon roar he is up out of his with a quickness looking around like crazy trying to spot it even though he knows he'd be dead meat before he could get anywhere to safety.

Well, at this point, it's personal between them now, isn't it? 

17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

This makes absolutely no sense to me, so I have nothing more to say on the subject.

An alliance is different than complete capitulation is my point.

Jon most certainly was not sent to Dragonstone with the understanding that he would bend the knee is my more specific, show-related point. 

[ulkis]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

So, because Jaime and Cersei know their relationship is an abomination as far as most of Westeros is concerned you find sex between them less creepy than two people who have never met until recently, and have no idea they have a blood relationship?  We have information that they do not.  So while you may find it creepy, Jon and Dany are not committing any wrong based on the information they have. If you look at the situation in that light, there'd be less "creepy" pearl clutching comments, and more empathy for the people involved and how this will impact them going forward.

I was under the impression that that's why the original poster thinks it's creepier (please forgive me if I'm wrong, OP). That it's a creepy thing happening to Jon and Dany, because they don't have all the information, not that they are committing something creepier on purpose than Cersei and Jaime.

[call me ishmael]

21 hours ago, alaynestone said:

Finally, the end scene - damn, we're fucked.  I died a little of the inside seeing the Night King riding Viserion.  And was it just me, or did Viserion seem much stronger in death than he ever was in life? He looked pretty powerful.

I had the same thought.  In fact, it seemed to me that he was breathing blue fire/ice for longer than any of the dragons breathed fire.  Perhaps because since he is undead he doesn't need to breathe?

it made me wonder if that is going to be how he is able to take on 2 dragons.   Cause normally I wouldn't think he could stand up to Drogon.

[peggy06]

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Tyrion has become the dumbest person in Westeros. I am convinced that more than ever that he is subconsciously trying to win over Cersei or at least save her and Jaime. Dany needs to dump his treacherous  ass.

Afraid this might be true. He was always one of my favorite characters, but I don't see how else you can interpret the convo with Cersei that got cut off, and his demeanor outside Dany's room.

[GraceK]

I don't think we should overestimate the truth about Jons parentage. Nothing I have seen so far about Jon Snow is that he is power hungry. He didn't ask to be KITN, and in the end he had no problem bending the knee to Dany for what he feels is the greater good. He considers himself Ned Starks son, and I don't think finding out he's not is going to change him fundamentally. I think his main goal right now is the war with the NK and that's his focus. The idea of him focusing instead on being the heir to the iron throne with the WW and a zombie dragon over the wall seems insane to me. He may have an identity crisis down the line, when it's all over, but until the moment that Dany herself sits on the Iron Throne and starts killing innocent people, I don't see him claiming his "birthright". I think the person who is going to have a real problem is Dany herself. She has believed herself to have a divine right to rule, that she is the last Dragon, everything she has gone through and has done for seven years has been leading to her claiming her throne. To find out that it is in fact her lover, and nephew who is the true heir will be devastating. I don't see her giving up her claim either , she has worked to hard and sacrificed too much to just hand the throne over to Jon. It also depends on who else's finds out this information. If Varys finds out, who will he support? What if the other houses ( whose left alive anyway) decide to back Ned Starks nephew with royal blood instead a foreign woman? Any problems that arise from this revelation I genuinely don't see being instigated by Jon. The easiest would be if she gets pregnant and they get married, uniting the two houses and starting a dynasty of their own. ( I would like that ending!) that also fits the war is the roses theme as well IMO, Danny as Henry Tudor and Jon as Elizabeth of York. 

[Minneapple]

24 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Yeah, there's an implicit violation of both characters that made me really uncomfortable.  I don't think either of them is going to be all, "Well, what are you going to do?  Get married! Who cares about close blood ties!"  and so having the "close kin! Woot!" voiceover really made me wince. 

I think that's what really weirded me out, the voiceover. Look at this beautiful couple having sex, they are aunt and nephew. ISN'T IT ROMANTIC? And yeah, Rhaegar loved Lyanna and Lyanna loved Rhaegar...and their actions led to a war. So good luck with that!

Speaking of, the TV show did a miserable job on Rhaegar and Lyanna. This was a story that GoT fans have been waiting for for years and years. I always found the mystery around their relationship fascinating. I always wanted to see the tournament at Harrenhal, and the Knight of the Laughing Tree and all that. Explain why Rhaegar set aside Elia for Lyanna, why Lyanna was okay being "the other woman" when she didn't want to marry Robert because he would never keep to one bed. But sadly all we got was a voiceover and a brief (but okay, pretty) wedding scene. I suppose next season we could get more but with only six episodes I doubt it.

[Pogojoco]

10 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

So, because Jaime and Cersei know their relationship is an abomination as far as most of Westeros is concerned you find sex between them less creepy than two people who have never met until recently, and have no idea they have a blood relationship?  We have information that they do not.  So while you may find it creepy, Jon and Dany are not committing any wrong based on the information they have. If you look at the situation in that light, there'd be less "creepy" pearl clutching comments, and more empathy for the people involved and how this will impact them going forward.

It's an informed consent thing.  It's dramatic irony, which is often designed to make the audience feel powerless and uncomfortable. And Bran confirming the parentage immediately before that scene tells me they want us to find it creepy and uncomfortable. The showrunners saying "That's his aunt" over that scene in the behind the episode. They could've had the Bran scene to start the episode. Both Jaime and Cersei know what they are doing and the consequences for doing it. 

 

It's not pearl clutching, it's feeling bad for a situation that probably isn't going to end well. 

7 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I was under the impression that that's why the original poster thinks it's creepier (please forgive me if I'm wrong, OP). That it's a creepy thing happening to Jon and Dany, because they don't have all the information, not that they are committing something creepier on purpose than Cersei and Jaime.

Exactly. Cersei and Jaime are effed up and fully aware that they are effed up and why. Pulling the wool over a couple of characters eyes, when characters like Bran already know the information, feels creepy and almost cruel. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yep.  Even Tryion's hair bothers me.  The only characters with good hair (probably because it's their own) are Jaime, Jon, Arya, Brienne, Missandei, Tormund (wow!), and the rest of the minor male characters. 

Dany's wig is beyond ridiculous.  She has enough hair in those braids alone for 4 other Valyrians.  Sansa' wig looks super wiggy, too, particularly in the early season when she was sitting next to Jon at the table in the Great Hall.  Cersei truly like a Romulan (h/t to whomever mentioned it here a while back!).....can't someone make Cersei wash her damn wighat?

Bwah! Cersei's hair really is Romulan cira STNG. It is so damn ugly. It ages her and makes her look masculine with her square chin. Daenerys' hair is over the top. They should have used a thinner and darker blonde wig so her brown eyebrows are less pronounced. I bet the real reason that Kit and Emilia didn't go too wild in that sex scene is because they were terrified the damn wig would come off. Ha. Nepotism is the only explanation for why show's hairstylist is still employed after all these years of dreadful hairstyles and wigs.

Edited August 29, 2017 by SimoneS