S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Notwisconsin]

17 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I know Bran's visions are supposed to be true, but it did occur to me that the charge of Littlefinger  betraying Ned was based on spectral evidence, the same sort of evidence used in the Salem Witch Trials.

This is a different planet. Plus LF admitted the charges to some extent while they never mentioned Bran's visions at all.

[anamika]

Just now, Francie said:

The point is to be more intelligent -- and not see things as simple black and white. I tell all the truth or I tell an outright lie. there are ties when presented with a demand like Cersei's, and you respond in a way that isn't a lie but doesn't instantly antagonize or alienate the other person.  Call it bargaining, if will. Or negotiating or influencing.  It's not a dirty thing.

Okay, so what should have Jon said when Cersei asked him to swear to remain neutral? How should he be more tactful? Cersei asked him a straightforward, black and white question and there was only one straightforward answer to that.

He had already pledged to Dany and if Dany asks him to fight for her, he would have to do so. If he gave his word to Cersei to remain neutral, then he would be going back on his word. So what is the answer?

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

This reminds me of Arya and Sansa's showdown after Sansa let the lords down gently.  Arya thought Sansa should have been more forceful, and Sansa responded by saying she needs to be tactful.

Are you seriously comparing Cersei to those useless weather vane Lords up North? One word from Lyanna Mormont and they will all probably shut up.

By the way, as Arya pointed out, Sansa was shoring up her own support with the Northern lords in case Jon did not make it back by slyly talking about how Jon was doing what Jon thinks is best and absolving herself of any fault.  So of course, tact was required there.

But I don't see how that compares to having Jon lying to Cersei and going back on any deals he makes with her.

[mikal768]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If your actions causes the death of thousands of people that you're supposed to protect,  you lose the moral high ground. 

Even if you believe those actions will not only save millions of people, but also keep the human race from being extinct in the Long Night?

[bluestocking]

10 hours ago, Kanner said:

I'm confused about Bran making it a point to call Jon a Sand. I know it is the bastard name in Dorne. But everyone knew Jon was not born in the North. Were they ok with Snow because they didn't know where in the South he was born? Or the writers just needed a lead in for the true Targ reveal?

I actually squeed at this.  I'm certain GRRM is using the basic outline of alchemy to tell his story and you have to have the lead couple represent the four elements--fire and air, earth and water--so when they unite you get a Chemical Wedding and the philosopher's stone.  Jon SNOW gets you water, but where does earth come from?  So yay--his other potential name, Sand.  Dany is obviously fire and air.  Plus she wears the cerulean blue of the quitessence, a symbol of the philosopher's stone, a lot.  

[DarkRaichu]

29 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Emilia Clarke is simply glowing, I want what she's having.

We all should have a little boat rocking action....  ;)

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I find it really hilarious how Cersi calls every woman she meets a whore when she's the one having bastard babies with her twin brother and cheating on twin brother with her cousin. Also, I love how people who are bitching that Jon didn't lie seem to overlooking the fact that Cersei is the liar here. She orchestrated that whole thing and stabbed them all in the back immediately. Not one thing she said was true...so if Jon had lied and agreed to her terms and then she went on did she did anyway, Jon would be called an idiot again for giving up his oath and lying to a madwoman. It would have gained him nothing but looking like someone who also can't be trusted.

What is that saying about 1 finger pointing at others and 4 pointing at yourself ?  

[Hana Chan]

Raising a glass to Ned, the man that everyone thought was a fool but managed to pull the biggest con in the history of the kingdoms. Hiding the true heir to the Iron Throne with no one - not Varys or Littlefinger or all the clever, smart movers and shakers - having the least clue. Way to go, Eddard.

[Amerilla]

It's a small thing, but one of my favorite moments last night was the look on Jaime's face when Brienne says: "Fuck honor!" It's the same look most kids have the first time they hear their mothers swear. 

48 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Where is Jaime going? Shouldn't he send a raven to Dany/Jon with the truth of Cersei's deception?

 

Maybe Jaime doesn't know where Jaime is going. My immediate thought was that he might be going to find Tyrion or Brienne, but Cersei turning him out after almost having him killed is quite a lot to process. He may have to have a moment at the crossroads in S8 to decide which road he's going to take. 

RE: Tyrion creeping about during #boatsex. I read a relatively plausible theory this morning that it was jealousy, pure and simple, that he has come to love her in the same destined-to-be-friendzoned way Jorah has and has that same resigned-but-still-kinda-butthurt aura as Jorah. Since he first made it to her court, he's used his position has her Hand to push Jorah and Dariio out of her inner circle and made himself her chief advisor. But Jon is a real threat to Tyrion's role in Dany's life, since she's consistently been listening to him pretty much from the start PLUS the possibility of Sexy Playtime Babymaking.  (Not that listening to either Tyrion or Jon has been particularly profitable for her this season, and getting knocked up may not be much benefit to her in the long run, either.) 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I want to say she's delusional, but she's not wrong. Not even Tyrion could argue that.

Tommen was on Cersei.  If she hadn't insisted on keeping control over him, she wouldn't have talked him into arming the Faith Militant to ruin the Tyrell's and she wouldn't have ended up blowing up his wife and causing his suicide.

Joffrey was Olenna and Little Finger and he deserved it.

Myrcella was killed out of revenge over Cersei's champion killing Oberyn Martell during Tyrion's trial by combat.  You could put that on some combination of Cersei, Tywin, Olenna and LF.  

[Kanner]

44 minutes ago, anamika said:

Placating does not mean lying. Lying makes things worse.  A person who lies and breaks deals would be the worst diplomat. No one would ever go negotiate with him because they know he can go back on his word.

A good ruler would be someone who does their best to keep his/her promises.

No, sorry. It's not about having a 'I will never lie' policy. It's that once you agree on a deal, you have to stick to it. Or your word is worthless and the next time no one is going to believe you when you want to make a deal. Which means, no more deals or bargains. Which means Westeros gets royally fucked.

The fact that no one but Jon gets this is baffling. Especially the likes of Tyrion. Again, you don't see the hypocrisy of Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his deal with Dany and then thinking that Cersei will hold true to her word? If every person is like Cersei in Westeros, how would day to day life even work? How would kingdoms deal with each other, bargain and negotiate if no deal is sacred, everyone lies and there is no trust anymore? 

If Jon as king on the Iron Throne tries to negotiate with Yara Greyjoy why would she believe anything he says if he can just go back on his word?

Sticking to deals, oaths, vows, guest right etc. is the very fabric of Westeros - it's people like Tywin, Roose and now Cersei who don't hold true to these values. And they are reviled in Westeros for that. I don't expect Jon to be like them nor would I want him to be.

Agreed.  We know Jon can and has lied when he needs to (see Season 3).  So it wasn't that he couldn't lie he made a choice not to lie. As he said to Sam before the Lord Commander vote about Stannis' offer - why would people follow him if he can't keep his oaths. It was on Cersei to think of the people of Westeros and the threat coming for them all. Of course, we later find out that it would not have mattered what Jon said because she had already planned with Euron to betray them.  So he would have lied for nothing anyway.

[screamin]

10 hours ago, that one guy said:

 

He didn't do that, because he was a paranoid lunatic. That wasn't Rhaegar's fault, in fact that's probably why Rhaegar was hiding out in Dorne at the time, to avoid dear old dad.

Cravenly leaving his EX-wife by one-sided divorce and his two children in the hands of paranoid lunatic dear old Dad while he banged his new teen wife for months instead of publically announcing what he had done and taking responsibility. No excuse for that.

Edited August 28, 2017 by screamin

[mrspidey]

I don't know why everyone is so worried about the Undead. It took them seven seasons to get to the Wall, so it's gonna take them at least four more seasons to get to Winterfell. 

[MrWhyt]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sorry I have to do this but....*spools up the book quotes*

this is not the books. Jon Snow is Ned Stark's son, that was reinforced in this episode in the dragon pit with the reveal that he had already sworn to Daenarys, and with his conversation with Theon.

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

It's a small thing, but one of my favorite moments last night was the look on Jaime's face when Brienne says: "Fuck honor!" It's the same look most kids have the first time they hear their mothers swear. 

Maybe Jaime doesn't know where Jaime is going. My immediate thought was that he might be going to find Tyrion or Brienne, but Cersei turning him out after almost having him killed is quite a lot to process. He may have to have a moment at the crossroads in S8 to decide which road he's going to take. 

RE: Tyrion creeping about during #boatsex. I read a relatively plausible theory this morning that it was jealousy, pure and simple, that he has come to love her in the same destined-to-be-friendzoned way Jorah has and has that same resigned-but-still-kinda-butthurt aura as Jorah. Since he first made it to her court, he's used his position has her Hand to push Jorah and Dariio out of her inner circle and made himself her chief advisor. But Jon is a real threat to Tyrion's role in Dany's life, since she's consistently been listening to him pretty much from the start PLUS the possibility of Sexy Playtime Babymaking.  (Not that listening to either Tyrion or Jon has been particularly profitable for her this season, and getting knocked up may not be much benefit to her in the long run, either.) 

I was thinking Tyrion was jealous too.  That was my initial thought.  My second thought is that he's worried that these two will get caught up in a "romance" and not be focused on the real problem at hand anymore.

[MarySNJ]

31 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

The issue also is, at least for me, is that Dany and Cersei are still operating as if the fight for the Iron Throne is still the big endgame and that the war against the White Walkers is something that's just going to delay its eventual determination. Cersei has made it pretty abundantly clear that even though she may buy the idea that there is a massive army of ice zombies really to invade that it's not something that's going to affect the south so much. And if it is, so long as she and hers are protected and come out on top, then it doesn't matter how many die in the interim. Dany accepts that the NK army is the bigger immediate threat to the kingdom, but still is hedging her bets and wants to make sure that afterwards she can pick up where she left off and continue her quest for the throne. Knowing that, I can't quite blame Cersei for not going along with them since she's screwed whether she helps them or not - the best that she can hope for is that Dany dies during the war in the North.

Jon is not playing that game. He never has. His alliance with Dany is solely based on the fact that she pledged to help him against the immediate danger. Revealing to Cersei that he and Dany were allied and that he'd "bent the knee" wasn't going to change Cersei's response. She was playing them and I was telling my mom (who was watching with me) that it wasn't Cersei that they really needed to convince. It was Jamie, because he was the one who not only lead the Lannister forces but had some degree of influence on Cersei. And in that... mission accomplished. Jamie was so convinced that when he saw that Cersei was so selfish that she was not only willing to let everyone in the North die, but even the citizens of Kings Landing as well that it was his breaking point with her. So long as she came out on top, nothing else mattered. She's said it before and has certianly acted on that before, but now it was really slammed in his face and it was more than he could take. Cersei was confident that Jamie would stay with her no matter what and was proven wrong.

And Sansa... stop gripping that Jon made an alliance without consulting with you first. What, he was supposed to send home a raven to ask permission of his little sister to do what he, as king, needs to do, and then hang around waiting for a response? What did she think he'd gone south for in the first place? To make an alliance to help fight the Night King, you silly twit! Not because he wanted a change in scenery. And yes, marrying Dany would make a whole lot of sense - the two most powerful people in Westeros uniting the kingdoms against a common threat. And seriously... Jon always does things like this? For all your lives, how do you know what Jon would and wouldn't do? You barely spoke to him before now.

Man... seeing Littlefinger on his knees, begging for his life is never going to get old. We've had some satisfying deaths before, but this one I particularly enjoyed.

I'm okay with Rhaegar looking like an older version of Viserys since he is Viserys's older brother - it makes sense that they would look something alike. And as for the big reveal about Jon's parentage being anticlimactic, I honestly don't think it could have been made climatic. It's something pretty much the whole audience figured out and this is just confirmation that 1) Rhaegar is Jon's father and 2) that Jon is legitimate. The big thing will come later on when Jon learns this.

This hits a lot of bases for me. 

I don't have a problem with the progression of Jon and Dany's relationship. I think it worked well with the story arc the show has given us, and I suspect it is meant to tie into the end result that GRRM planned even if it gets there in a different way. I find it completely believable that two people with disparate goals could find common ground, build mutual trust and respect and work together to fight a common enemy. They don't know they are closely related yet. Why shouldn't they consider marriage when an alliance would be in both their interests?  I have no doubt that there will be emotional pain at least for Jon when the truth is revealed about his parentage but there's a larger purpose at stake in their partnership, and that is simply to save the lives of their people from the the army of the dead. Also, I happen to think Jon and Dany have palpable chemistry together and I think it's easy to believe they would fall for each other. Your mileage may vary, of course. 

I think Sansa has done an admirable job of running things at Winterfell in Jon's absence and I applaud her actions to sentence Littlefinger for his many crimes against her family and the North (it's about damn time someone took him down). But Jon is still the King and has to make executive decisions based on what he thinks will be in the best interests of the people of the North. He trusts her to secure the home front while he focuses on the external threats.  

Much has been made of the stupidity of the wight hunt and it came at a great cost - the loss of Viserion to the NK. I still think trying to persuade Cersei to at least agree to a truce while they deal with the Real Threat was worth a try. Jon and Daenerys were trusting Tyrion's judgment regarding Cersei by bringing the evidence to the dragon pit. Are we to believe that they should have second guessed him when he knows her better than anyone but Jaime? If they had, then what? They would still be faced with aggression from the South, while dealing with the threat from the North. The problem is, Cersei is power-mad and putting her own interests in clinging to the Iron Throne ahead of everyone else. I think its selfish and short-sighted because she underestimates the threat from the North. At least Jaime can see that.

Other thoughts...

IIn the books, a lot of what eventually happens was prophesied.  It's much less obvious in the show. We know about the PTWP on the show but not that it was specifically descendant(s) of Aerys and Rhaella that are key to this prophesy. That's why some of these decisions that the characters take may seem stupid or selfish, but have a purpose... I do think (hope) it will make more sense in the books than it has on the show. 

I love the Starks and their sense of honor, even when it's to a fault. I understand the down side to that in the game of thrones where almost everyone else is duplicitous, but it's what makes them shine in this crap sack world. If Cersei had just demanded a promise to maintain the truce I suppose Jon could have weaseled out a bit with compromising his honor, with something like "I plan to stay in the North for now." But Cersei was demanding fealty and what was he supposed to say, if he's a man of his word? 

Littlefinger underestimated Sansa badly. For a man who orchestrated many of the actions that led to the war of the 5 kings, he couldn't anticipate Bran filling in the blanks for Sansa to confirm her suspicions about LF's involvement in virtually everything bad that happened. Littlefinger was outsmarted by the Starks whose intelligence he underestimated.

Where was Gendry? I would have thought that Davos would take him back to wherever they went, but they were headed to Kings Landing first, so maybe not? Maybe he will find his way to the Winterfell forges after all.

I don't want to venture a guess about the status of Tormund and Beric. Would Beric die like that after being brought back by the LoL for some purpose? Will Tormund's plot armor save him again or will he be the fan-favorite casualty of this season? 

Viserion got a massive power up. I was literally horrified watching the scene at the Wall, even though I knew it was coming. I hope the Jon/Dany contingent makes back to Winterfell before those things make it that far south, but I have a feeling their return will be diverted by news of the White Walkers' breach of the Wall. 

We now know that it takes a fortnight to go from KL to White Harbor on horseback at Dothraki speed, or at least that's what I got when Jon said they would meet up with the Dothraki on the Kings Road. Does that mean it will take the same amount of time to sail from Dragonstone to White Harbor? Can we assume the passage of time this season based on that? Assume at least 2 weeks for travel from White Harbor to Dragonstone, and at least 2 weeks from Dragonstone to Eastwatch, probably more since its considerably North of White Harbor. How many days did they spend in the caves mining dragon glass enough to make thousands of weapons?  

Did Jorah really think that Daenerys showing up in the North on her dragon would be a better strategy to put the Northerner's minds at ease with her coming?  Jorah just got finished saying that someone might shoot at her for what happened in Robert's Rebellion, and he's suggesting she fly in like a conqueror on her own rather than show up with a united force? Or is he just trying to separate Dany from Jon? 

What was up with Tyrion's expression outside Dany's bedroom? Is he in love with her too? 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

Oh, you might be on to something there.  I hope not.  Tyrion might have even come up with the plan for Cersei lying about helping with her armies.  All along I've been thinking Varys was the traitor in Dany's camp, I hadn't considered Tyrion.  And Tyrion was drinking, we haven't seen that from him for awhile, have we?  I hope you're wrong.

Tyrion knows about the dead, but maybe he thinks that Jon and Dany's forces can defeat them, but there won't be enough left over to threaten Cersei.

As well as he knows her, I have a very, hard time believing Tyrion would ever join up with Cersei.  I could possibly see him betraying Dany to follow someone else, but not Cersei.  

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Are you forgetting Astapor? 

I did forget Astapor. I am giving Daenerys a pass for that one. It was a shrewd negotiation with slavers and child abusers.

53 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Emilia Clarke is simply glowing, I want what she's having.

She is, isn't she. 

[YaddaYadda]

20 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Raising a glass to Ned, the man that everyone thought was a fool but managed to pull the biggest con in the history of the kingdoms. Hiding the true heir to the Iron Throne with no one - not Varys or Littlefinger or all the clever, smart movers and shakers - having the least clue. Way to go, Eddard.

I laugh everytime I think about it. Poor dumb Ned! As far as I'm concerned, he won the game of thrones without even trying to win at anything.

There's something to be said about the loyalty people have for Ned, even after he died in the books. Good guys aren't always idiots like the show wants us to believe. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Hana Chan]

11 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Nothing screams serious romance than one that is between an Aunt and her Nephew.

With a dwarf listening in. Sounds like a PornHub entry.

[MarySNJ]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Tommen was on Cersei.  If she hadn't insisted on keeping control over him, she wouldn't have talked him into arming the Faith Militant to ruin the Tyrell's and she wouldn't have ended up blowing up his wife and causing his suicide.

Joffrey was Olenna and Little Finger and he deserved it.

Myrcella was killed out of revenge over Cersei's champion killing Oberyn Martell during Tyrion's trial by combat.  You could put that on some combination of Cersei, Tywin, Olenna and LF.  

I agree with most of this, but it was Tyrion who arranged Myrcella's marriage to Trystane Martell for reasons that made sense at the time. He's not responsible for the rest of what happened, but I can see Cersei blaming Tyrion for "selling" Myrcella to the family that eventually killed her. That being said, if Tyrion had not been falsely accused of Joff's murder, Tywin, Oberyn, Myrcella, Trystane, Doran and three Sand Snakes would still be alive presumably. 

[FnkyChkn34]

So I finally have time that I can make a longer post with more of my thoughts.

Sansa was very, very good.  I bought what she was selling - I actually thought she was going after Arya and not Littlefinger.  But that twist?  That was spectacular.  To see Littlefinger begging was the best.  

Cersei... well, of course Cersei lied.  Why wouldn't she?  She needs to die.  Also, I read a spoiler about her that definitely did not happen last night, so that was interesting as well.  I guess she really is pregnant?  Great, another demon spawn.

I was very happy to see Jamie FINALLY wake up.  Now, let's just hope he stays woke and does NOT go back to her.  Yes, he's done his own awful things, but for some reason I still root for him.  Guess he's the villain you hate to love.

And now for the remainder of the story - I really liked that juxtaposition of the slow start with the walk to the dragon pit and the conversations with the quick rapid fire of events at the end of the episode.  It was a satisfying buildup that way, IMO.  But Tormund better not be dead.  He (and Beric) better have run fast and escaped!!  Also, was that ice fire?  Blue fire? Zombie dragons with frickin' laser beams???

And, well, the pièce de résistance... I wasn't looking forward to the incest, but that was hot.  I'll give them credit for that.  I also kind of liked that it was interspersed with the telling of his parents.  We all knew it was creepy, so it's not like it made it any more creepy for me.  At least we know who "Jon Snow" is now.

59 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Emilia Clarke is simply glowing, I want what she's having.

As Twitter has put it... "8 inches of Snow."  Yeah, I do too...

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh yeah, speaking of Greyworm......

Who did the throat slashing better?  Arya, or Greyworm in Mereen with those two miserable slavers?

I'm thinking Arya.......stupid Peter never even saw her coming.  That was awesome!  Greyworm got a twofer, but I'm voting Arya.

Be honest, those two in Mereen never saw that coming, style points GW, satisfaction points; Team STARK.

[Enigma X]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The catch a wight plan was Tyrion's idea, so he does deserve blame as do Jon and the rest of the team for poor execution.

You could argue Dany is really responsible for the Wall being breached.  Tyrion urged her not to go on her rescue mission.

In the end, I think the NK would have eventually found a way to get his army past the Wall, anyway.

Thank you. I said this before, but I keep seeing people say it was Jon's or Jorah's idea. Although, I count Jon, Jorah, Dany, and Davos among my favorites, they were all pretty stupid with going along with Tyrion's plan.

[magpye29]

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

What the heck does the dragon have three heads mean, then? 

Jon, Dany, and baby.

[Edith]

11 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I did forget Astapor. I am giving Daenerys a pass for that one. It was a shrewd negotiation with slavers and child abusers.

I'm giving her a pass too. Sometimes you have to play/lie for the greater good, something that Jon should've learned by now. 

[GrailKing]

Just now, magpye29 said:

Jon, Dany, and baby.

FYI, what you quoted was someone else.

[Juliegirlj]

Jon/ Aegon : Boat sex, my Queen /Auntie? ..... Dany: if you incest!!!! 

I wanted Littlefinger dead for so long, and damn if I didn't regret it when he made his last gurgle. I guess I wanted him to suffer longer. 

Where is Ghost? Did Sansa's reference to the wolf pack indicate perhaps the dire wolves will band together? 

How the Hell do you defeat a blue flame special dragon?! 

[screamin]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

At no point was there anybody at the tower not working for Rhaegar. If he said not to bring her upsetting news, they likely didn't do it.

Lyanna knew very well that her son needed Ned's protection if he were to live - ergo, she was very aware that the Targaryens had fallen, and almost certainly also knew what had happened to other baby Targaryens recently, and knew her own child would likely suffer the same fate without Ned's protection, hence her extracting the promise from Ned. So, yeah, she knew the upsetting news.

Besides, Ned said Lyanna was like Arya. Do you think that Arya would allow herself to be soothed into ignorance with 'hush, hush, m'lady, everything's fine,' if she saw everyone around her was extremely upset about SOMETHING a few weeks after Rhaegar went off to battle with her own family?

[cambridgeguy]

Aside from drama, is there any reason why Jon HAS to know he's Aegon Targaryean?  This does not improve his situation in any way.  Dany's not going to just step aside because he's higher in the line of succession, Jon himself will probably be dismayed at having slept with his aunt, and he 's never expressed an interest in ruling in the first place.  He's already committed to fighting the NK.  He was chosen to be KITN because he's Ned's kid - once the Northerners find out he's actually a Targaryean then all bets are off.  This episode also proved he's far too honest (and dumb!) to keep this sort of thing quiet regardless of the consequences. 

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, mac123x said:

It was really hard to tell.  It looked like a blue laser beam of some sort, though it was pulverizing the Wall rather than melting it.  We'll probably get a better idea of what it is next season.

 

Rhaegar and Viserys looked disturbingly too much alike.  I think if they'd used a better wig it would have looked more plausible that he was a dream-boat that everyone lurved.

The blue white inner is the hottest part of a flame, soooooo Dany could be screwed in a 1 on 1 battle.

[Edith]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The catch a wight plan was Tyrion's idea, so he does deserve blame as do Jon and the rest of the team for poor execution.

You could argue Dany is really responsible for the Wall being breached.  Tyrion urged her not to go on her rescue mission.

In the end, I think the NK would have eventually found a way to get his army past the Wall, anyway.

It was Tyrion idea because Dany refused to go north and help Jon to fight the WW if that meant leaving Cersei in the Throne, taking back the lands Dany had conquered already. 

That's why Jon agreed to this stupid plan, to convince both queens.

[that one guy]

45 minutes ago, screamin said:

Cravenly leaving his EX-wife by one-sided divorce and his two children in the hands of paranoid lunatic dear old Dad while he banged his new teen wife for months instead of publically announcing what he had done and taking responsibility. No excse for that.

It's not nice, but people behave like this all the time. Divorce sucks, particularly when you have kids and your spouse runs off with somebody s/he was cheating on you with. Typically, though, the grandparents don't respond by lighting people on fire. That's why he's called "the Mad King." Aerys II was an angry, evil, paranoid son of a bitch who was unfortunately King. His belief that everyone was conspiring against him became self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not Rhaegar's responsibility to manage, regulate or control the behavior of his abusive father who is also an absolute monarch. You can just as well blame Jaime for not stabbing the guy earlier, or Barristan for rescuing him when he was held hostage and Tywin seemed content to let his old friend the King rot or be killed.

On another note, realizing this morning the historical precedent behind the summit. In 1936, one of his allies kidnapped Chiang Kai-Shek, to force a summit with the Communists, and the Chinese civil war was put on hold so that everybody could fight the Japanese invaders together. Revolutionary forces became the Fourth Army or whatever, for the duration of WWII. So the idea that Cersei would drop hostilities and join the fight was not actually crazy, or at least not in the real world. (That would have been an interesting story too - having Jaime kidnap Cersei to force a deal.) And she wouldn't have been crazy to accept, the PR would have been valuable. This "somebody will win in the North, and then we'll fight the winner" thing was her plan with Littlefinger, the Boltons and Stannis and results were . . . mixed I guess.

"To hell with the North, let's build another wall at Moat Cailin," might make sense, if they had the resources to do so.

Gotta pull back on something I said before. I said there was a history of difficult pregnancies/births when Targaryens tried to have kids with non-Valyrians. Actually Daenery's mother died in childbirth just like Jon's, didn't she? And she was Aerys' sister. So, the line of Targs was in danger of dying out just like the dragons did. It was either because of the inbreeding itself, or alternatively the polar opposite - the unions  with the Martells and Blackwoods diluted the blood of the dragon. So Elia nearly died, Dany and Jon's moms did die, Dany  (magically) miscarried. I'm not sure Mirri Maz Dur was telling the truth, but Dany's conclusion that she can't have children and the line of Targaryens is ending isn't actually totally out there. In her head this is magic, fate or karma, but "the genetic consequences of multigenerational inbreeding" can't be ruled out.

Edited August 28, 2017 by that one guy

[leopardprint]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Aside from drama, is there any reason why Jon HAS to know he's Aegon Targaryean?  This does not improve his situation in any way.  Dany's not going to just step aside because he's higher in the line of succession, Jon himself will probably be dismayed at having slept with his aunt, and he 's never expressed an interest in ruling in the first place.  He's already committed to fighting the NK.  He was chosen to be KITN because he's Ned's kid - once the Northerners find out he's actually a Targaryean then all bets are off.  This episode also proved he's far too honest (and dumb!) to keep this sort of thing quiet regardless of the consequences. 

As of right now, it just seems like a cool Easter egg. I don't understand why it matters that Jon is the legitimate heir. Perhaps it's better explained in the books. There isn't a Targaryean army parked somewhere that wants to support the rightful heir. Dany still has the greater forces. I don't really see Jon as presented caring about the Iron Throne and who would back him? Does the prophecy have a morality clause like "bastards need not apply"? 

Edited August 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I agree with most of this, but it was Tyrion who arranged Myrcella's marriage to Trystane Martell for reasons that made sense at the time. He's not responsible for the rest of what happened, but I can see Cersei blaming Tyrion for "selling" Myrcella to the family that eventually killed her. That being said, if Tyrion had not been falsely accused of Joff's murder, Tywin, Oberyn, Myrcella, Trystane, Doran and three Sand Snakes would still be alive presumably. 

Yes, I can understand Cersei for blaming Tyrion for sending Myrcella to Dorne in the first place (she hated him for it from the start).  But, there were a series of things done by people other than Tyrion (Cersei, Tywin, The Mountain, Olenna and Little Finger) that actually put Myrcella's life in danger and caused her to be murdered.  She was in no danger by merely being in Dorne.  She and the prince were in love with each other, and Oberyn would not take out his grudge with Tywin on her, as he made it a point that they don't kill little girls in Dorne.  

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Thank you. I said this before, but I keep seeing people say it was Jon's or Jorah's idea. Although, I count Jon, Jorah, Dany, and Davos among my favorites, they were all pretty stupid with going along with Tyrion's plan.

Tyrion's plan only was developed so far as to capture a wight and bring it to Cersei. 

Jorah came up with the "let me go beyond the wall and track and capture one! Pick me! Love me! I mean, pick me!"

It was Jon who then was all "No, let ME go beyond the wall and track one and capture one!"  

I can't say Tyrion would have had a different idea as to how to get one, but the testosterone in the room settled on sneaking up to the entire army and picking one off before Tyrion could consider alternatives or weigh options. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[Francie]

 Cravenly leaving his EX-wife by one-sided divorce and his two children in the hands of paranoid lunatic dear old Dad while he banged his new teen wife for months instead of publically announcing what he had done and taking responsibility. No excse for that.

It's not nice, but people behave like this all the time

And when they do, I judge them. I judge them as selfish. I judge them as irresponsible. I judge them as bad parents for bringing children into this world and not making a better commitment to them. I judge them for the damage they do to those children. I judge them for breaking the trust and faith that their spouse had in them. I judge them for taking the support, physical, economic, mental, and not living up to their part of the bargain.  I judge them for not taking action to make sure their children are cared for once they do leave them. 

[jeansheridan]

If the writing was more subtle, I would say Tyrion's face during boatsex was a combo of worry about the consequences and a little envy. In his lifetime he has only seen love cause damage. Jaime and Cersei,  Robb Stark and his "foreign" bride, his own relationship with Shae.  I mean love between important people. Commoners have less baggage clearly. Jon and Dany together causes complications. Will Jon's people just think he is besotted? Will Dany be seen as just his woman and not an independent leader? And will Jon have more influence over her? Can Tyrion influence Jon? So yeah, he has questions. 

Tyrion also loves her and admires Jon and they are going into battle. This may end badly for them. Tyrion cares for her happiness too. He felt for her when she abandoned Daario. So falling deeply in love with a potentionally soon to be dead man...heartbreaking. 

Hey! Varys beat Littleginger. The realm over personal ambition. 

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Sending myrcella to Dorne wasn't the problem, it was actually pretty smart. It was his pride and refusal to be belittled which led to Oberon being his arrogant champion and eventually led to her death.

Pride and refusal to be belittled?   He was trying to avoid death.

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, I can understand Cersei for blaming Tyrion for sending Myrcella to Dorne in the first place (she hated him for it from the start).  But, there were a series of things done by people other than Tyrion (Cersei, Tywin, The Mountain, Olenna and Little Finger) that actually put Myrcella's life in danger and caused her to be murdered.  She was in no danger by merely being in Dorne.  She and the prince were in love with each other, and Oberyn would not take out his grudge with Tywin on her, as he made it a point that they don't kill little girls in Dorne.  

I disagree wholly. Sending Myrcella to Dorne was putting her life in jeopardy from the beginning. As Bronn told Jaime, "I don't think you realize just how much the Dornish hate your family." It was, essentially, a death sentence. Oberyn living or not, and his toothless promise (he is a man who fostered Lannister hate and armed his own daugthers with weapons, by the way), I have no doubt Myrcella was not coming back to King's Landing.  Cersei knew it, which is why she was so furious with Tyrion for sending her there in the first place.

Second, with the talk of Lyanna and what limited options she had, it kills me a bit that Tyrion decided to play games with Myrcella's life by sending her away.  Sure, it was a bit safer during the siege, but he -- the woman's uncle, and not even her parent -- made a decision as to whom this girl would marry and where she would live for the rest of her life.  To me, because he took on that entitlement, he bears responsibility for whatever followed. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[stillshimpy]

13 hours ago, stagmania said:

Please spare us the moralizing about a show that has featured all manner of physical and sexual violence and depravity from the very beginning.

Apologizing upfront again for being unable to quote properly, I have to go page by page or lose what I'm quoting, so for anyone who might care: I am actually reading the thread in full, I just can't respond in a way that reflects that very well. 

On the one hand, true but on the other hand, not really true.  The characters have no idea that they are related.  None whatsoever.  They truly aren't doing anything wrong in their minds or in the nature of their relationship.  Incest is wrong on multiple levels but one of them has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for people with an existing relationship.   Knowing it is taboo and results in emotional damage that can last a lifetime is something that audience possesses knowledge on but the characters do not. 

However, the show decided to voice over about the Aunt and nephew thing while they were doing the do specifically to send the audience a message that it is going to be a giant issue once they hit land.  Once they learn what they have done, it's going to trouble them both, if for no other reason than to illustrate that Dany and Jon as potential ruling entities have nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime who have been all "Yay, incest!"  

The Voice Over over sex that didn't include any warm-up or kissing about being way too closely related for that to be a good idea seems to indicate that Dany and Jon will be of the "No! Incest! YIKES!" once in possession of that knowledge.   So it seems that the show threw out a clue as to the direction they are taking this in and that it promises to be a source of emotional pain for both characters when they learn what they have accidentally done. 

13 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

<snipped>

Not going to mourn Littlefinger. His death was very, very overdue. Was highly entertaining to see him begging for his life and then bleeding out on the floor.

<snip to isolate a point>

Glad that we now have firm confirmation on 1) that Jon is legitimate and 2) his real name. I liked the flashback to Reaghar's and Lyanna's wedding (and am ok with his appearance). Jon's going to come home to some very interesting news.

 

1

I can't help but wonder if we may have Arya as Littlefinger next year, to gain access to the King's Landing and kill Cersei.  So we might not be done with Aiden Gillen yet (and I agree, he's been pretty weak in this role) but I was still glad to see him bested by the remaining Stark siblings.   I also really appreciated that Sansa and Arya had a moment of acknowledging that they both went through mountains of hell and that Arya is incredibly brave while Sansa has been also, simply to still be functional. 

13 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Jamie finally leaving Cersei is too little too late for this viewer. 

 

 

Yeah, that was beyond hollow to me, but in the better late than never category, I will happily take it. 

12 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Usually incest won't need such warning, but I guess they felt it was warranted in this case. 

I understand the point you are making but really disagree with the manner in which it is being made.  It isn't just the characters on this show that have no emotional framework to make this anything than an emotional trial for them both.  They've done nothing wrong, it isn't incest to them.   They are committing incest on a technicality because they've been lied to their entire lives.  This isn't touched on anywhere but I'm assuming that Viserys may have actually been privy to the fact that Lyanna Stark was not a captive (she just kind of sucked because her romance ended with her family being killed in rather large numbers and that's continuing to this day) but there's something kind of important about that annullment.  

It invalidates Dany's claim because Jon would be in the succession before she would.  The succession would pass to Jon before it would Dany. That was the big issue when Henry VIII had his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled (all of his marriages were annulled, he was never divorced, it nullifies legitimacy also) and it invalidated Mary Tudor's claim.  So his annullment would invalidate the two children that were killed but it also puts Dany in a different position.  Mary's line in the succession was restored after her younger half-brother Edward ruled and died before her and it only happened because they were essentially out of heirs.  There's that whole Lady Jane Grey and her nine day rule rebellion in there too.  

That's part of the point, or should be, about revealing that Rhaegar had the marriage annulled.  It invalidates the children of his first marriage but it also changes Dany's place in the line. 

But the show isn't "Yay, incest!" and scolding fans who also completely lack the emotional construct for the characters that it is wrong is carrying the ball too far over the goal line, I think.  

As a for instance, I think incest is reprehensible but on the rare occasion I've read about someone accidentally marrying their half-brother (which you'd think would be rarer than it is) without any knowledge of it, I have to admit, I think they should just be left alone.  The genetic implications are far overstated and the true problem because that it is a form of emotional abuse and damage.  

That exists with Jaime and Cersei.  It doesn't exist as a factor with Dany and Jon.  I don't ship them even a tiny bit but I understand why other people aren't horrified because they aren't breaking any rules knowingly.  It's actually freaking tragic and I think meant to be so.   The scene didn't personally do anything for me but I think people are well within bounds to think pretty people having sex is something fun.  Intellectual knowledge and emotional response being separate things is actually the point of what they are doing with Dany and Jon. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Pride and refusal to be belittled?   He was trying to avoid death.

I don't mean to speak for Oscirus, but I think that's in reference to Tyrion not holding his tongue after Shae's testimony. Instead of taking the plea deal, he decided to unleash on his father, sister, and the entire court.  Had he swallowed his hurt pride, he would have been sent to the wall. Where he would have met up with John, and been on the side of fighting WW. So, same end spot he wound up in. 

7 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Hey! Varys beat Littleginger. The realm over personal ambition. 

Or did mermen win over the humans .... hmmmmm...

sorry, I couldn't resist.

36 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Aside from drama, is there any reason why Jon HAS to know he's Aegon Targaryean? 

Are you channeling Ned? 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance. Because yeah, any sex scene with a freaking VOICEOVER about INCEST is sooooooo hot.

But one thing I really have on my wishlist for S8 is NO INCEST BABY - GRRM has made it clear that incest caused the downfall of the Targaryens. This show is about the STARKS not the Targs - a Targ incest baby would very much detract from that. And for me, the reason why they keep mentioning Dany can't have kids is to give Jon a little bit of leeway so he knows he won't father a bastard. Also sometimes when a woman says she cant have kids, that means SHE CANT HAVE KIDS (speaking as an infertile myself).

But why does he even have sex with her? I can't see it anything more than a power move. Tyrion lurking in the background of the scene "you need to learn how to lie" - Um, he's using sex to win power over her. Or, maybe it is all just about cocks in the end (great line Jaime)

ALSO Maybe I'm a Jon Snow fan but I don't even believe his "Northern Fool" act. I feel like he is aware of that trope - why would he fulfill it? Theon even noticed how weird it was that Jon would do that. Also we KNOW he can lie - he's done it before with Mance and the wildlings. 

Perhaps in the dragon pit he put on a show to hide his own manipulation of Dany.

Jon isn't here to repeat the Ned/Robb Stark story line.

My husband and I were debating about the ice dragon - will it breathe blue fire or ice? I won that bet with the former, because how else are you going to melt that Wall down? As fantasy nerd I am VERY pleased with that last sequence. It was so reminiscent of the Nazgul and Sauron's armies, just give me that LOTR shit from here on out.

Also it was fun to point at the screen when the Wall was falling and yell, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR AUNT.

Marriage between Aunt/Nephew or Uncle/Niece have historically not been that uncommon.   In fact, a ruling by the highest court in NYS legalized it in NY a few years ago.  I'm not a fan of it, but by GOT and Targaryen standards, it is pretty normal.  Given that Targaryen brothers and sisters were commonly wed, I don't think the fact that Jon and Dany are related necessarily prevents it from being a "end game" relationship.  

The fact that Dany and Jon were not raised as relatives and did not know eachother and have very little age difference would probably make their relationship a bit less icky than a typical one between an Aunt and Nephew.  

I don't think Jon is dishonest enough or smart enough to pull off such a long con on Dany.  Ygritte knew he was still loyal to the Crows, she just didn't care. 

I think the Ice Dragon breathes liquefied calcium chloride snow melt. :)  I thought it seemed a bit off that an Ice Dragon would melt ice, rather than turn things to ice.   I wonder what effect wildfire might have on an Ice Dragon.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

12 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Poor Viserion.  He's got holes in his wings and he's being ridden by pointy head.

Looks like Jaime has finally had enough.

I fucking hate Cersei.

I'm glad Sansa doesn't have to be fed to Drogon, but I still don't like her.

Jon and Dany....well, alrighty then.

I guess Undead Magik trumps the physics of aerodynamics. This is the problem I have with the entire genre; the writers just have way too many wild cards, that they can use to plot the story any which way. It really encourages sloppy, lazy writing. Toss in the tendency for the genre to have boring Ultimate Villains, be it Sauron, The Night King, etc., who have no complexity, just EEEEEEEVVVVVVVILLLLLLLL! pouring out of every orifice, and I can enjoy a show like this, but I'll never be fully engaged with it.

I liked the scenes with the Lannister and Stark siblings a lot, although I think it's really an error in writing to have so much of Sansa's and Arya's reunification and growth of mutual respect via their uncovering of Littlefinger happen off screen. Also, Theon's fight scene was very poorly executed, it seemed to me, and that surprised me, because it didn't seem all that difficult to do well.

I'll be interested next season to see how quickly the writers get to their major battle with the Army of the Dead. Frankly, that aspect of the story (and  really, the aunt and nephew love story; hopefully at least one gets killed off) is a lot less interesting to me than how the Lannister/Stark/Greyjoy conflict gets resolved. It'd kinda' be interesting to have Arya asassinate Euron or Cersei.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bannon

[DigitalCount]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

I don't mean to speak for Oscirus, but I think that's in reference to Tyrion not holding his tongue after Shae's testimony. Instead of taking the plea deal, he decided to unleash on his father, sister, and the entire court.  Had he swallowed his hurt pride, he would have been sent to the wall. Where he would have met up with John, and been on the side of fighting WW. So, same end spot he wound up in. 

While potentially true, I think he was right to conclude that the trial wasn't concerned with justice, and that Cersei would never allow him to live in any capacity. Ned was promised the Wall by these people.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

I disagree wholly. Sending Myrcella to Dorne was putting her life in jeopardy from the beginning. As Bronn told Jaime, "I don't think you realize just how much the Dornish hate your family." It was, essentially, a death sentence. Oberyn living or not, and his toothless promise (he is a man who fostered Lannister hate and armed his own daugthers with weapons, by the way), I have no doubt Myrcella was not coming back to King's Landing.  Cersei knew it, which is why she was so furious with Tyrion for sending her there in the first place.

Second, with the talk of Lyanna and what limited options she had, it kills me a bit that Tyrion decided to play games with Myrcella's life by sending her away.  Sure, it was a bit safer during the siege, but he -- the woman's uncle, and not even her parent -- made a decision as to whom this girl would marry and where she would live for the rest of her life.  To me, because he took on that entitlement, he bears responsibility for whatever followed. 

Myrcellla lived happily in Dorne for quite some time.  It wasn't until after Oberyn was killed that the threats started.  

[GraceK]

Why should he have shut up? He was INNOCENT, why should he just accept the black and skulk off for something he didn't do?  Not to mention all the blood he gave for a family who except for Jaime hated him. He was a good hand to Joffrey, he might good decisions and tried his best to temper a sadistic king. He was largely responsible for saving Kings Landing from Stannis and got his face carved up for the trouble. His father tried to have him executed and his sister has been vicious to him since he was born. And he still in this season tries to minimize the damage to his family. But sure, lets blame Tyrion and the patriarchy for all of Cersis evil actions. Everything she has done as been for the betterment of herself, not her family. She's a narcissistic sociopath and I am sick of people laying the blame for  what she is on everyone else and raking actual DECENT people over the coals for every bad decision they make. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by GraceK

[domina89]

So I've had some time to process the episode a little more and just wanted to add a few thoughts.

I think the best scene for me was Tyrion and Cersei.  Her barely controlled rage made me flash back to last week's episode when Arya was telling Sansa that anger was a great motivator.  Cersei is so blinded by power and her need for revenge that she can't see what she really needs to be afraid of, even when it was literally staring her in the face.  So glad Jaime finally grew a brain and got away from her.

I also loved the Jon and Theon scene.  That was powerful.  Two outsiders in the Stark family who both desperately wanted to belong, but couldn't, discussing the choices they have made.  I am very glad Jon offered what forgiveness he could to Theon.  It seemed to give Theon the courage he needed to face the ironborn men on Yara's behalf.  I have a feeling he will come to a heroic, but fatal end on this endeavor, but at least he is trying to redeem himself in a way.  Also Jon telling Theon he doesn't have to choose between being a Stark and a Targaryen... ahem... I mean Greyjoy.  Yeah, not very subtle writing but it gives me some hope that maybe Jon won't have a complete meltdown next season.

Oh Tyrion, why do you make me so nervous?!? I really don't have a good feeling about where his loyalties lie.  I think Tyrion is looking more and more like Dany's betrayal for love.  Tyrion feels immense guilt over the things he has done both directly and indirectly to his family and I'm not sure he can reconcile that within himself.  I think we have seen Tyrion's plans blow up in his face this season because he is conflicted and isn't giving Dany the best advice.  Couple that with Dany openly seeking advice from Jon (and listening to him) and you create a situation where Tyrion starts to feel more and more underappreciated.  That is so dangerous because Tyrion sought out Dany specifically because he believes in her and she made him feel wanted and important- something he has always craved but has never really had until now.  If he starts to feel pushed aside, then I question whether or not he will stay true to her.  If it comes down to a choice, I think he will choose his family, and that makes me fear for Dany and Jon, too, by extension.  

I am in agreement with those who said it is refreshing that Jon didn't lie to Cersei.  I'm glad we have at least one character on this show who leads by example.

Ok...boatsex.  Sigh.  What can really be said?  I mean, if D&D are going to take us there, at least make the trip worthwhile for us.  I really wish the director had consulted with the team over at "Outlander" on how to do amazing love scenes beforehand because those guys know what they are doing.  It was pretty boring, but maybe that was the point.  We didn't even get Jon's hair out of the manbun, which is actually what I am most upset about...

Not surprised or sad about Littlefinger.  I just hope they burn his body... we don't need him back in ANY form.

This was not, overall, my favorite season by any stretch, but I did appreciate all the callbacks/parallels to season one and especially, to Ned.  He really has had a deep presence on this entire series, even though he hasn't been onscreen for the majority of it.

Edited August 28, 2017 by domina89

[GraceK]

Marcella was a princess, she was never going to have a choice in any marriage. If it wasn't Tyrion, it would have been Tywin selling her to the highest bidder. At least she was gonna marry someone she loved and who loved her back . It can't be laid at Tyrions feet that she was poisoned by her MOTHERS enemy.

Edited August 28, 2017 by GraceK

[that one guy]

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

Quote

It's not nice, but people behave like this all the time

 

And when they do, I judge them. I judge them as selfish. I judge them as irresponsible. I judge them as bad parents for bringing children into this world and not making a better commitment to them. I judge them for the damage they do to those children. I judge them for breaking the trust and faith that their spouse had in them. I judge them for taking the support, physical, economic, mental, and not living up to their part of the bargain.  I judge them for not taking action to make sure their children are cared for once they do leave them. 

Oh, I totally agree. I've been on the receiving end. But this didn't actually start the war. Arys was Rickard Stark's liege lord, a relationship with mutual responsibilities, built on the principle of reciprocity. When his the Starks came to him and asked, "where is our sister/daughter, we haven't seen her in months, she was last seen with Rhaegar," the response he was duty-bound to give was the truth - "I have no idea what that boy is up to, haven't seen him in months, think he's in Dorne, but I will find out." 

The fact that he was in Dorne, and Lyanna was guarded by Arthur Dayne, a Dornish Kingsguard, implies that his Dornish wife actually knew what was going on. It's even possible the marriage was annulled because she refused to give him another child, and told him, "I can't go through that again, go find another woman to die in childbirth for her prince, it ain't me. I've got two kids to take care of already, and I can't risk dying on them just because you want to have another girl so you can name her after Aegon's other sister." Which is totally what he wanted. He would have been disappointed anyway!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, DigitalCount said:

While potentially true, I think he was right to conclude that the trial wasn't concerned with justice, and that Cersei would never allow him to live in any capacity. Ned was promised the Wall by these people.

Exactly, Tywin had told Tyrion more than once that he wished he was dead and Cersei had tried to kill him.  If the plea bargain was in place, and going to be honored, there would be no need for Shea to lie on the witness stand about Tyrion.  Tywin might have kept the deal, but Tyrion had no reason to trust he would.

Besides that, why should an innocent man go along with a kangaroo court railroading him for a crime he did not commit?  

[Helena Dax]

I was wrong about Arya and Sansa and being wrong has never felt so damn good! I thought Sansa was going to make a mistake until she talked about murdering and then... "lord Baelish" and you almost could hear Littlefinger's balls climbing up his throat. He totally had it coming. Very satisfying. Loved the following conversation between the girls, that't the kind of relationship they need to have right now. They have to take care of each other. However I'm starting to think that they're like Athenea and they were born from Ned's head, given their lack of words for their mother. 

It might be because I cut my teeth on incest with "Flowers in the attic", but I'm totally okay with Jon and Dany together. I mean, the incest doesn't bother me. I don't think that's how it's going to end, though. Maybe because the characters are going to be upset about the incest part, maybe because one of them is going to die...  My bet right now would be Jon dead, Dany pregnant. 

Is Jaime planning to tell the others about Cersei's bertrayal? He should, if he really wants to be helpful. Cersei's the worst, as usual, but she's unable to kill her brothers, I'll give her that. A bit of humanity left. 

Loved Sandor and Brienne talking about Arya, 

When Qyburn saw the wight, there were little hearts in his eyes.