S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Hana Chan]

33 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Unlike Cersei, Daenerys herself has never lied or deceived to get what she wants so why is she expecting Jon to do so? I don't even understand what would be the benefit of lying to Cersei. Cersei's request was ridiculous. The north has chosen a side, time to stick with it.

The issue also is, at least for me, is that Dany and Cersei are still operating as if the fight for the Iron Throne is still the big endgame and that the war against the White Walkers is something that's just going to delay its eventual determination. Cersei has made it pretty abundantly clear that even though she may buy the idea that there is a massive army of ice zombies really to invade that it's not something that's going to affect the south so much. And if it is, so long as she and hers are protected and come out on top, then it doesn't matter how many die in the interim. Dany accepts that the NK army is the bigger immediate threat to the kingdom, but still is hedging her bets and wants to make sure that afterwards she can pick up where she left off and continue her quest for the throne. Knowing that, I can't quite blame Cersei for not going along with them since she's screwed whether she helps them or not - the best that she can hope for is that Dany dies during the war in the North.

Jon is not playing that game. He never has. His alliance with Dany is solely based on the fact that she pledged to help him against the immediate danger. Revealing to Cersei that he and Dany were allied and that he'd "bent the knee" wasn't going to change Cersei's response. She was playing them and I was telling my mom (who was watching with me) that it wasn't Cersei that they really needed to convince. It was Jamie, because he was the one who not only lead the Lannister forces but had some degree of influence on Cersei. And in that... mission accomplished. Jamie was so convinced that when he saw that Cersei was so selfish that she was not only willing to let everyone in the North die, but even the citizens of Kings Landing as well that it was his breaking point with her. So long as she came out on top, nothing else mattered. She's said it before and has certianly acted on that before, but now it was really slammed in his face and it was more than he could take. Cersei was confident that Jamie would stay with her no matter what and was proven wrong.

And Sansa... stop gripping that Jon made an alliance without consulting with you first. What, he was supposed to send home a raven to ask permission of his little sister to do what he, as king, needs to do, and then hang around waiting for a response? What did she think he'd gone south for in the first place? To make an alliance to help fight the Night King, you silly twit! Not because he wanted a change in scenery. And yes, marrying Dany would make a whole lot of sense - the two most powerful people in Westeros uniting the kingdoms against a common threat. And seriously... Jon always does things like this? For all your lives, how do you know what Jon would and wouldn't do? You barely spoke to him before now.

Man... seeing Littlefinger on his knees, begging for his life is never going to get old. We've had some satisfying deaths before, but this one I particularly enjoyed.

I'm okay with Rhaegar looking like an older version of Viserys since he is Viserys's older brother - it makes sense that they would look something alike. And as for the big reveal about Jon's parentage being anticlimactic, I honestly don't think it could have been made climatic. It's something pretty much the whole audience figured out and this is just confirmation that 1) Rhaegar is Jon's father and 2) that Jon is legitimate. The big thing will come later on when Jon learns this.

[TobinAlbers]

46 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I loved the way Qyburn reacted to the wight.  While everyone else was petrified with fear, he moved forward to get a closer look and then picked up the still living, severed hand after The Hound chopped it off.

Wouldn't it be something if Qyburn used his ghoulish curiosity for good and find a way to kill the wights without losing large forces of the living (a magical biological warfare poison/potion) instead of evil?  I could see Cersei telling him to figure out a way to protect King's Landing that doesn't involve sacrificing troops.

Dany having to fight one of her own children is ironic. She's always relied on the intimidation factor of her dragons and now it's being turned right back on her with an enemy that is her mirror image.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

So, did the slob kicking Theon’s ass just tire himself out mostly?

actually-- it appeared that now he is a eunuch, kicking Theon where his nuts used to be, actually makes him stronger! Unintentional funny moment of the episode-- Theon smiling as that guy tried to kick him there repeatedly. (because, doesn't it still hurt to get kicked?)

[Constantinople]

Nice exposition dump between Sam & Bran, but it was amusing when Bran said he was the Three-Eyed Raven and Sam responded, "Oh!... I don't know what that means"

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I want to say she's delusional, but she's not wrong. Not even Tyrion could argue that.

She does have a point with Myrcella. Tommen's on her and her alone, and Joffery, well he formed his own casket, should have went sooner. 

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Also can we marvel at Jon's stupidity?  Yea, Cersei wouldn't have sent her army anyway, but holy shit dude, learn to lie for crying out loud.

If Sansa was there she BITCH SLAP him so bad, it make Cersei proud.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

 

True to form, the plot that sent him off was really dumb.  How and when did Sansa figure all this out?  What prompted this sudden revisiting of things like Littlefinger’s dealings with Ned Stark?  There’s not even a hint of an explanation.  It would tend to indicate that (assuming GRRM ever publishes the next book(s)) we’ll eventually get a more narratively satisfying story of Sansa outwitting Littlefinger, though.

 

I don't really get how we are supposed to believe Little Finger holding a knife to Ned's throat was some huge secret that none of the Starks would have heard about before.  Varys, Selmy, and The Hound all witnessed it.  Besides, that, those Kings Guard and City Watch guys are like a sewing circle the way they gossip.  I would think that what LF did would be well know throughout Westeros, or at least widely rumored.    

[Constantinople]

After the Loot Train attack in Episode 4,  I don't find it credible that the Bank of Braavos would lend Cersei sufficient funds to hire the Golden Company, or that the Golden Company would even be willing to be hired.

Still, leave it to Cersei to complain about Daenerys's "foreign scum" and then hire foreign mercenaries.

[Bryce Lynch]

55 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

As soon as I learned that Jon and I'm with stupid company decided to catch a wight to bring down south, my fear was that Qyburn was going to study a wight, see how they work, and replicate the process.

I could see that, or I could see Qyburn coming up with better ways to kill the wights.  I'm not really sure if he is purely on the side of evil or if he just wants to be able to do his experiments without any constraints.  

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Second, it's important to note that he did NOT bend the knee. He just promised her he would. He has no "oath" to uphold to her, even though he said he does in the dragon pit. That clued me in that something was up. Why say you swore an oath to her - it's not like it's your NW vows!  

So, Jon didn't really promise anything to her. And if that's the case, then she might also fake out on her promise as well. Especially when she learns that Jon's the rightful heir. He doesn't know this, of course, but he's smart to hedge his bets.

Wait, this is not correct. Jon did swear an oath to her, as the show has reiterated multiple times-in their scene on the boat, in his letter to Sansa, and again in front of all the rulers of Westeros. Just because they didn't do a scene with a formal ceremony doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's called exposition and it's a tool used to avoid repetitive or unnecessary scenes. 

6 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I need to hear your theories for what he's doing in this episode. Why does he have sex with her if this isn't a love story? Is it just to get his dick wet? 

Theories about where the overarching narrative is going (i.e. epic love story vs tragedy vs awkward incest baby pickle) have nothing to do with Jon's motivations as a character. He is clearly falling for Daenerys. 

6 hours ago, skiracing12 said:

does anyone else get a sense that the whole mess with the golden company is a way to introduce (book) Aegon? The idea of the dragon having three heads seems important and i cant see any way an army that recently defeated the Night King being able to also beat cersei and 20,000 mercenaries and i also cant see cersei on the iron throne in the end. I hope this isnt where D and D are going there just isnt enough time ( and aegon is born before Aegon-jon(wtf guys be more original)

There is absolutely no time for this, so nope. I don't think anyone new will be introduced in the final six episodes (except probably a whole bunch of redshirts to die in battle scenes).

3 hours ago, Vella said:

You know what would have been nice? Instead of the Stark sisters endlessly remembering Ned Stark, they remembered their MOTHER, Catelyn, for once.

I am honestly torn between amusement and anger at the writers' obsession with having all the characters talk of nothing but their fathers. They had other family members that mattered! The Starks especially should be talking about their dead siblings, but instead it's all Ned all the time.

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Martin has grossly overwritten the side parts of the story, which is part of the reason it's been taking him forever to finish.

3 hours ago, loki567 said:

I don't want to get too overwhelmingly negative but the sub-par plotting desperately makes me want the remaining books even more now. I do not want this show to have final say on GRRM's legacy.  

I truly believe he will never finish the books, and watching this season has made me really sad about that. I grew incredibly frustrated with his last two books, but the show is bungling the story badly, and it shouldn't be the final/only word on how it all ends for these characters. 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I actually thought that was obvious in how they shot the reveal. They were going for the drama. I don't see how some people concluded from that they aren't going to end up together.  

I haven't really concluded anything one way or the other. But if they are intending for Jon/Daenerys to be a big romance, that sex scene was a joke.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

After the Loot Train attack in Episode 4,  I don't find it credible that the Bank of Braavos would lend Cersei sufficient funds to hire the Golden Company, or that the Golden Company would even be willing to be hired.

Still, leave it to Cersei to complain about Daenerys's "foreign scum" and then hire foreign mercenaries.

Cersei's army was able to deliver all the gold from Highgarden to KL before the the Loot Train was destroyed.  

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I enjoyed this episode for what it was, but this episode proved that something could be cool and bad at the same time. (Usually when you thought about it for a few minutes). Littlefinger thinking that he had gotten rid of Arya, only to be put on "trial" and executed by Arya. Cool. Sansa and Arya stringing him along all season, including arguing when no one else was around. Just bad writing, and it would only have taken a line or two about needing to get Royce on board with the idea.

Nah, I think all the arguing was real, only after the GOF and Sansa questioning Arya on the faces, did they each know the other could be trusted and then off screen Sansa returns the dagger to Arya and they see Bran.

To make it more real, they should have removed Needle and the dagger in the great hall, then once they had him, hold him down and Arya executes him, making it a colder kill.

[BooBear]

10 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Dany having to fight one of her own children is ironic. She's always relied on the intimidation factor of her dragons and now it's being turned right back on her with an enemy that is her mirror image.

I was wondering about that. Will Dany and Jon have any sway over "alt-dragon" - it is still a dragon. And Targs have controlled them for centuries.  I was wondering if that could be the key to the night king losing... dani could control him just enough to give them all a shot. 

Quote

But he was right. If everyone lies, then what is the point of even asking for deals and promises from people?

That is an over simplification. Everyone lies to exist in this world. You want to have an "I will never lie" policy -- great, but not when you are the leader of thousands. You do what is best for them. And in that circumstance... what was best for them, was to lie.  If Jon can't or won't lie ever he is a liability not a leader.  His goal should be to lie as little as possible or be vague. John clearly doesn't have those chops to be tactful or vague.  He really has lost his brains this year. He used to understand that you had to do what was best for the people not you. Maybe he lost that when he was killed. 

[Bryce Lynch]

39 minutes ago, loki567 said:

And that's about the fifth most stupid thing of this entire storyline, the fact that a wight would absolutely shock and terrify everyone in King's Landing when hello, they were already sharing a pavilion with a zombie in FrankenGregor. 

FrankenGregor is a little different.  He is hidden under the armor, so nobody, except Qyburn, knows exactly what he is.  Plus, he seems to have some sort of real consciousness, as opposed to being a mindless killing machine, like the wight.  

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't really get how we are supposed to believe Little Finger holding a knife to Ned's throat was some huge secret that none of the Starks would have heard about before.  Varys, Selmy, and The Hound all witnessed it.  Besides, that, those Kings Guard and City Watch guys are like a sewing circle the way they gossip.  I would think that what LF did would be well know throughout Westeros, or at least widely rumored.    

People have queried the plausibility of this, but it isn't widely known.  The Valemen don't know, for instance, or the Northmen.  Sansa doesn't know despite being in KL at the time.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I think the North will be fine, once they see what the Dragons can do.

They be stupid not to, Sansa and Arya just may have to take another head or two if those vanes keep shifting.

[Ottis]

GoT has gone all TV wonky now, with emotional payoffs that don't quite make sense. The largest being Bran's selectively used powers. if Bran was able to see all the details around LF, why not have him see Cersei's true plan, or what the Night Army is up to ("they have a dragon!), or geez, the future?  And yet he could see all Sansa and Arya described, but not Jon's heritage?  For a guy who sits around being mystical, he doesn't see as much as you would think.

I wonder if marching all the way around the end of the wall was a longer trip for the white walkers. than just taking it down wherever, now that they have a dragon.  Maybe their navigation is faulty. "Recalculating ..."

BTW, wasn't the wall strong not only because of its size, but because it was bound with magic? What happened to the magic?

As for Jon's big ethical dilemma, wouldn't that have been solved by Dany simply asking him to do what Cersei had asked? if the issue was that he already had a queen, wouldn't that have fixed it and avoided the drama?

Where is Jaime going? Shouldn't he send a raven to Dany/Jon with the truth of Cersei's deception? Also, I cannot believe Tyrion doesn't see through it.

Also, it would have been way better for Jorah to have walked in for the sex than Tyrion. Unless the point is that everyone loves Dany, and everyone wants to LOVE Dany. Which seems like an odd thing to emphasize.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Ottis

[Constantinople]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Cersei's army was able to deliver all the gold from Highgarden to KL before the the Loot Train was destroyed.

Banks make new loans on the likelihood of future repayment.

What's the likelihood of Cersei being able to repay a new loan when the Loot Train attack demonstrated that Daenerys could destroy Cersei at any moment?

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She does have a point with Myrcella. Tommen's on her and her alone, and Joffery, well he formed his own casket, should have went sooner. 

If Sansa was there she BITCH SLAP him so bad, it make Cersei proud.

If Cersei hadn't falsely accused Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, forcing the trial by combat in which The Mountain killed Oberyn Martell, Myrcela would have been safe in Dorne.  

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Cersei hadn't falsely accused Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, forcing the trial by combat in which The Mountain killed Oberyn Martell, Myrcela would have been safe in Dorne.  

May haps, or better yet keep her there but away from Cersei, send her to uncle Kevin.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

The largest being Bran's selectively used powers. if Bran was able to see all the details around LF, why not have him see Cersei's true plan, or what the Night Army is up to ("they have a dragon!), or geez, the future?  And yet he could see all Sansa and Arya described, but not Jon's heritage?  For a guy who sits around being mystical, he doesn't see as much as you would think.

 

well,  I interpret it as he's not omniscient-- seeing and knowing everything at once. Sometimes he needs to be prodded-- like when you're trying to remember the name of that actor in that show that you like. You know the information is in your brain-- but you don't have immediate access to it. 

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I think they will be terrified of her and said dragons and begin to see Jon as other. I wonder how soon Sansa, Arya, and the Northern lords will find out Jon is Targaryan.  I wonder if Jon finds out first but then decides to keep it form them, and then shit hits the fan when they find out.

I don't think it make sense if Sansa or Arya not to know before Jon they need the lords. It be a decision to wait after the battle then play it out.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Banks make new loans on the likelihood of future repayment.

What's the likelihood of Cersei being able to repay a new loan when the Loot Train attack demonstrated that Daenerys could destroy Cersei at any moment?

That doesn't matter. The Lannister's have a FICO score of 850. :)

Actually, I don't think Cersei made any mention of a new loan from the Iron Bank.  She said that that Highgarden bought them the Golden Company.   I think there may have been enough gold from HG to pay off their debts to the IB and buy the Golden Company.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Constantinople]

3 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The largest being Bran's selectively used powers. if Bran was able to see all the details around LF, why not have him see Cersei's true plan, or what the Night Army is up to ("they have a dragon!), or geez, the future?  And yet he could see all Sansa and Arya described, but not Jon's heritage?  For a guy who sits around being mystical, he doesn't see as much as you would think.

To be fair, when you see everything it takes a little time to filter out the less important stuff.  In the 2nd year of the reign of the Mad King, a bird took a dump through the Moon Door; a tavern keeper in the Riverlands had a bad case of gas; the stewards at Castle Black made halfway decent ale for once.

[Straycat80]

I liked this season and finale episode. One thing I was disappointed about was that they never showed us what happened to Yara or the two surviving sand snakes. 

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Rhaegar was long dead when Jon was born. I think naming him Aegon was Lyanna's idea. I like to think maybe she felt kind of sorry about the way Elia's Aegon died as a result of Rhaegar and her irresponsibility and named him so in penance.

This is what I've been trying to remember from the show. Did they ever name Rhaenys and Aegon or were they just two nameless children on the show that were murdered during the Sack of King's Landing. 

9 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Theon: you know, I have a hard time believing that we have this character who's made it all the way to here, had his schvantz cut off, lost a finger or two, gets the shit beat out of himself, turns tail from cowardice, etc., etc ... is still alive in the game just so he can go rescue his sister and beat Euron on Season 8 and return for a pat on the back. I think the Drowned God or some god has bigger plans for Theon.

Theon is an expert bowman. I hope they don't forget that. I can imagine him standing somewhere high with his bow and dragonglass arrows hitting the bull's eye every time. 

9 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

I'm still confused.  So Jon is the product of silver haired Raegar and light brown haired Lyanna.  Ned, her brother, and Arya, her niece, both have light brown hair.  And we had that whole "the seed is strong" theme in Season 1 about Baratheons having black hair and Lannisters having blonde hair and Tully's having red hair, which is how Ned realized that Joffrey and sibs were not Robert's children.  So how did Jon end up with black hair?  Does that mean he's not a "true" Targaryeon like Dany?    Ugh.

If Cersei's children had been Robert's, then they would have had the Baratheon look because Baratheon genes are like Robert, they'll beat the shit out of the other genes.

The Targaryen genes tend to be a toss up when they care to get out of marrying their own family members or a Velaryon. Baelor Breakspear looked like his Dornish mother, but his brother Maekar had the silver blond hair and the purple eyes. Rhaenys looked like Elia, but Aegon looked like Rhaegar. 

Jon looks like his mother. He has her dark hair and grey eyes. 

The thing with all of this is is that until people started digging around Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen, people just assumed they looked like Cersei, never thinking that Jaime is the father. The same thing will happen with Jon. 

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually, I loved the Jon/Theon scene - one of the few scenes this show has done with nuance, I thought.

Yes, Theon was a child hostage and what Ned did was wrong. Yes, we understood Theon's POV and why he betrayed the Starks.  But it still does not excuse his betrayal of Robb's trust, what he did to Bran/Rickon and all his terrible actions (Killing innocent children) afterwards. From Jon's POV (Someone who sees Ned as the best person ever) Ned and the Starks treated Theon well and like one of the family and for Theon himself, his biggest regret was betraying Robb:

Towards the end of the books, this is Theon regretting his actions:

 GRRM said of Jon and Theon:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

And that's pretty much what we saw tonight. Theon pointing out that Jon can still stick to his  principles even when everything is at stake and it's the hardest thing to do and that Theon had been unable to do that.  Theon has always been conflicted about his identity because of Ned taking him as an hostage - he's neither Stark or Greyjoy. He does not belong anywhere and that inner conflict is what drives most of his actions - a need to find acceptance somewhere.

Jon telling him that he is both a Stark and a Greyjoy even if it was not his place to offer Theon forgiveness - that gives him some peace and acceptance, I think - it helps him move forward.

Anyways, Jon is always going to think that Ned is the greatest (He has a diary full of ' My father always said..' quotes) and he grew up with Theon and Robb as brothers, so that betrayal would have hit him hard. And Theon's arc has always been about reconciling with his past actions and I think this conversation with Jon helped. I don't know, I loved the Theon scenes the best this episode. Best character and Alfie's portrayal helps.

I really loved this scene. I thought it hit the right emotional notes and Theon was essentially raised by Ned. And the show touched on this back in season 3, I think? When Theon thinks he escaped Ramsay but is talking to him, he says that his true father lost his head in King's Landing, which for me was about the saddest thing he could have said. So I think the dialogue was very much on par with that scene and we got some continuity. 

8 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Brandon Stark was arrested for treason after protesting that Rhaegar had abducted his sister.  Rickard was summoned and made the mistake of being a Stark who went south.  Then, we had some dead Starks and a war.  So, their relationship set things in motion.  If they hadn't conducted it in a way that could be construed a a kidnapping, then things would have been different.

The biggest problem is that we have a massive blank between the end of the tourney at Harrenhal and when Lyanna and Rhaegar vanished in the riverlands. That's what? 9 months to a year worth of information we don't have access to?

What I can speak to are the strategic mistakes Rhaegar made after he got back to King's Landing and left his father in power, when he decided to leave Jaime behind and when he tried to cross the Trident. All those decisions were pretty idiotic and cost him dearly.

8 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I'm wondering what Dany will think when (I'm assuming it's a when and not an if) she learns not only of Jon's parentage but also his name.  Remember her dream/vision of Rhaeger appearing to her and saying that this is his son, Aegon, and he is the PwwP?  She probably dismissed it since she believed Aegon was dead.  This is now changed.

They cut that from the show. 

8 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Although that was baffling. Jon was a Snow because he was a bastard son of a northern lord (Ned).  It did not have anything to do with where he was born.  If Jon was a bastard son of a Targaryen (Rhaegar), shouldn't his last name be Storm???  

No, he would be Waters if he was raised in the Crownlands. Jon's last name is Snow because that's where Ned raised him. If he was raised in Dorne, he would have been Sand. 

Also, and this is not directed at you, it's just something that really bothers me. If Jon was a Targaryen bastard, he would not be a Blackfyre. Everyone needs to stop saying that. The Blackfyre line descends from Daemon Blackfyre. And Jon does not descend from that line.

7 hours ago, ulkis said:

Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret once they got married? 

Maybe marriage implies the possibility of a rightful heir? I question how much of a secret it was. I think the people that know the whole story are loyal AF, be it to Ned/Lyanna or Rhaegar.  

Also, Bran said that he's the only person who knows the truth, so the writers clearly forgot that Howland Reed was at the ToJ, that they placed him there, that he survived and that he stabbed Arthur Dayne in the back. 

6 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Where's Gendry?

Running to Winterfell.

3 hours ago, arjumand said:

Crap, I keep forgetting about that. Maybe Bran is so super-three-eyed-raveny now that some of his memories have been erased to make up for new downloads.

Re. Jon's "real name" - I'm getting really annoyed at people on Tumblr going on about it being ridiculous that Rhaegar chose the same name of his dead son for his new son. Why is everyone assuming that only the dad gets to name the baby, rather than the woman whose body the kid just came out of? Sure, she's northern, but she seems to have drunk Rhaegar's 'Prince that was promised' Kool-Aid, and what better name for a boy with a DESTINY than to be named after Aegon the Conqueror? Ugh.

Unfollow liberally. 

 

46 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I loved the way Qyburn reacted to the wight.  While everyone else was petrified with fear, he moved forward to get a closer look and then picked up the still living, severed hand after The Hound chopped it off.

Qyburn: How do I make more of these?

[Paradigm14]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

While I'm glad LF is finally gone, I was a bit annoyed that his whole trial's evidence against him consisted of 'Bran says so." If that was all that was needed to convince the Northern and the Vale lords of LF's guilt, they could have done this the day Bran rolled into Winterfell. That annoyed me, as well as the when and the how of Arya turning against Sansa and Sansa (offscreen) winning her over. Was it all fake? And if it was, why was it necessary?

Sansa won her over, when she didn't back down or get squirelly when she was being accused of things in Arya's room.  She'd won her over when she received the dagger.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

To be fair, when you see everything it takes a little time to filter out the less important stuff.  In the 2nd year of the reign of the Mad King, a bird took a dump through the Moon Door; a tavern keeper in the Riverlands had a bad case of gas; the stewards at Castle Black made halfway decent ale for once.

Exactly.  Just because Bran apparently has access to the all that knowledge, doesn't mean he could access it all at once, or the most important piece of data at any given time.  I think his conversation with Sam helped him know where to look.  

[Paradigm14]

10 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I guess we have to assume she played him and talked to Bran and talked to Arya and most likely Royce, as there were no Northern Lords there .

I'll be back, want to see inside the episode, see what they say, they should had Sansa meet Royce or Bran, I think Sansa's and Arya's spot was enough to let me know that they trusted the other. I was hoping when LF pleaded for defense , that Sansa would send him running a let Ghost in the game; didn't happen. : [

Just a quick cut of Royce seeing Sansa privately would have been more than enough exposition. They misused Royce again.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

My Season 8 predictions are that Dany is preggers with Jon's kid and Jon dies defeating the Night King. He was resurrected with the destiny of killing NK and extending the Targ line. Gendry will be legitimized and marry Sansa for the Baratheon line returning. The only sad thing I'm seeing is that the Stark name will die out unless Bran has a kid. Robb and Rickon's deaths wiped them out. 

Her children would be 1/2 Stark, and so anyone of them could take the Stark name and be Lord or Lady of Winterfell, Lord or Lady of Storms End.

 King, Queen of the realm  ( in line after Jon's child )

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I think the real point of the moment was to show that Jon is no diplomat. He can rule on a small scale, but he would be ineffectual as ruler of a kingdom, where one has to placate in order to not cause dissension, or worse. 

I thought it interesting that he compared himself to Ned in that regard.

Placating does not mean lying. Lying makes things worse.  A person who lies and breaks deals would be the worst diplomat. No one would ever go negotiate with him because they know he can go back on his word.

A good ruler would be someone who does their best to keep his/her promises.

33 minutes ago, BooBear said:

That is an over simplification. Everyone lies to exist in this world. You want to have an "I will never lie" policy -- great, but not when you are the leader of thousands. You do what is best for them. And in that circumstance... what was best for them, was to lie.  If Jon can't or won't lie ever he is a liability not a leader.  His goal should be to lie as little as possible or be vague. John clearly doesn't have those chops to be tactful or vague.  He really has lost his brains this year. He used to understand that you had to do what was best for the people not you. Maybe he lost that when he was killed. 

No, sorry. It's not about having a 'I will never lie' policy. It's that once you agree on a deal, you have to stick to it. Or your word is worthless and the next time no one is going to believe you when you want to make a deal. Which means, no more deals or bargains. Which means Westeros gets royally fucked.

The fact that no one but Jon gets this is baffling. Especially the likes of Tyrion. Again, you don't see the hypocrisy of Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his deal with Dany and then thinking that Cersei will hold true to her word? If every person is like Cersei in Westeros, how would day to day life even work? How would kingdoms deal with each other, bargain and negotiate if no deal is sacred, everyone lies and there is no trust anymore? 

If Jon as king on the Iron Throne tries to negotiate with Yara Greyjoy why would she believe anything he says if he can just go back on his word?

Sticking to deals, oaths, vows, guest right etc. is the very fabric of Westeros - it's people like Tywin, Roose and now Cersei who don't hold true to these values. And they are reviled in Westeros for that. I don't expect Jon to be like them nor would I want him to be.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[Francie]

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Cersei hadn't falsely accused Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, forcing the trial by combat in which The Mountain killed Oberyn Martell, Myrcela would have been safe in Dorne.  

Most of Cersei's evidence against Tyrion was truly legit, and she truly believed he had murdered Joffrey. Tyrion had taken over Pycelle's lab, he had stolen poison (in the books, he used some on Cersei to make her seriously ill for several days), Trent was telling the truth about the threats issued by Tyrion in the throne room; Cersei recited word for word, accurately, the threat Tyrion issued to her.  Tyrion knew he had himself to blame for the words he used. 

Even half of Shae's testimony was true, and the look on Cersei's face when Shae starts to lie, and Cersei knows it, is interesting. Also keep in mind that Shae was Tywin's prisoner at the time (she had been taken to his room his the purple wedding), and thus likely testifiying under his direction.  

And that doesn't even take into the fact that Tyrion didn't have to go back and kill his father. He was freed.  And by enacting his revenge, he sent his siblings' lives, and her children's lives, into a tailspin.  All so Tyrion could have that moment of satisfaction. That's mainly what she's berating him for in this episode. He had put himself ahead of the family. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, GrailKing said:

Her children would be 1/2 Stark, and so anyone of them could take the Stark name and be Lord or Lady of Winterfell, Lord or Lady of Storms End.

 King, Queen of the realm  ( in line after Jon's child )

Wouldn't Ned's line (Bran, Sansa, Arya) be ahead of Lyanna's line (Jon Snow/Aegon Targeryn) for Lord/Lady of Winterfell?  

[Francie]

24 minutes ago, Ottis said:

It would have been way better for Jorah to have walked in for the sex than Tyrion. 

Mark me, I think they did it so that Tyrion will later play the Ned role when Dany dies giving birth to Baby Ice and Fire. She'll have never revealed that Jon was the father, and he'll be dead as well. Only Tyrion will know the importance of this baby. 

[Hana Chan]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Placating does not mean lying. A person who lies and breaks deals would be the worst diplomat. No one would go negotiate with him because they know he can go back on his word.

Not to mention that swearing allegiance to Cersei would seriously weaken Jon's position. Whatever mistrust the North may have for Dany is nothing compared to the absolute hatred of Cersei. And swearing loyalty to Cersei when he'd already allied with Dany... Jon's name would have been toast.

I liked that Jon stood in direct contrast to Cersei (who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit her in the ass) and Dany (who is more honorable but will lie when she believes it to be necessary). With so many duplicitous figures around, having an actual honest man who isn't afraid to stand up for what he believes is right and on occasion is proven right is kind of refreshing. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Hana Chan

[Shimmergloom]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

As for Lyanna this comes down to a case of her being a victim or a perpetrator. If you insert this century's mindset into that one where it doesn't belong then sure, she's a victim.  However I choose to believe her independence only went as far as telling off a few punks and not giving up her name and all that it entails to show how independent she really is.  She's definitely a perpetrator.  As great at killing off her family as Tyrion is.

Let's put this idea toward Arya then.  Let's say Robb does marry a Frey daughter.  But Arya was promised to a Frey as well.  Let's say she objects toward being given/sold to a Frey the way Lyanna objects to being given/sold to Robert.  She runs off and that causes the Red Wedding(cause Walder is going to be offended by any slight).  Are we going to blame Arya for not wanting to be  sold off?  One thing I believe is that just cause the times are different, it doesn't mean that a woman can't understand how she's being treated.  For prime example, Cersei, Lyssa, Dany and Sansa have all talked about being raped by their husbands.  However marriage rape is not illegal in Westeros and it would be thought of as being her duty and not rape by the populace.  But it doesn't have to be illegal for a woman to know she's being raped.

So Lyanna does not need to be a 21st century woman to know when she's being sold against her will.  She's not a perpetrator, her father and older brother are.  Robert is, for thinking of her as a possession and not a living person.

She also doesn't tell/make her family show up in KL calling Rhaegar a liar and getting themselves killed.  Especially if she's left word(which we can assume) that she wasn't really kidnapped.

Lyanna is a victim of a society that likes to sell their children for alliances.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

Most of Cersei's evidence against Tyrion was truly legit, and she truly believed he had murdered Joffrey. Tyrion had taken over Pycelle's lab, he had stolen poison (in the books, he used some on Cersei to make her seriously ill for several days), Trent was telling the truth about the threats issued by Tyrion in the throne room; Cersei recited word for word, accurately, the threat Tyrion issued to her.  Tyrion knew he had himself to blame for the words he used. 

Even half of Shae's testimony was true, and the look on Cersei's face when Shae starts to lie, and Cersei knows it, is interesting. Also keep in mind that Shae was Tywin's prisoner at the time (she had been taken to his room his the purple wedding), and thus likely testifiying under his direction.  

And that doesn't even take into the fact that Tyrion didn't have to go back and kill his father. He was freed.  And by enacting his revenge, he sent his siblings' lives, and her children's lives, into a tailspin.  All so Tyrion could have that moment of satisfaction. That's mainly what she's berating him for in this episode. He had put himself ahead of the family. 

You could blame Tywin more than Tyrion.  Tywin knew Tyrion was innocent, but did everything he could to get him convicted and executed.  Plus, Tywin was ultimately responsible for the original grudge from Dorne, because of what The Mountain did to Elia Martell and her children.  In the books, do they say whether Tywin ordered The Mountain to rape and kill her, or did he just like raping and killing?

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Wouldn't Ned's line (Bran, Sansa, Arya) be ahead of Lyanna's line (Jon Snow/Aegon Targeryn) for Lord/Lady of Winterfell?  

She is Ned's line so her children get Winterfell, not Jon's, they get IT, ahead of Ned's line  and Sansa's child with Gendry  get Storms end and Winterfell.

So in essence Sansa is the Mother, Aunt and Grandmother of any future King / Queen.

Also through her mother's side add the RL and Eyrie, and Harrenhal.

ETA : Throw Cousin in there also Jon, and SR.

Edited August 28, 2017 by GrailKing

[Lady Iris]

I was spoiled for this ep but I still loved it. Loved the little catch ups between The Hound/Brienne and Pod/Tyrion/Bronn. I'm a sucker for these little reunions.

Emilia Clarke is simply glowing, I want what she's having.

Theon's conversation with Jon was everything. Give Alfie Allen an Emmy for gods sake. His tortured face killed me. Who'd have thought that Ramsey Bolton would actually serve a purpose for the good? Theon's face when he was getting kicked was awesome. He finally caught a break!

NCW's face was absolutely heartbreaking during that final scene with Cersei. So glad he's finally moving on. Give us a Bran/Jamie reunion next year pleeeeeeeease!

Bye bye Littlefinger. Long overdue for that man to get his comeuppance. Color me happy that Sansa and Arya are good. I needed that.

DeadViserion was spectacular and horrible. I just don't know. I have faith that Tormund and Beric are ok. Just how? I don't know but they need to be.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lady Iris

[Haleth]

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

"For Yara" = the feels. Go save your sister, Theon, and please kill off that annoying buffoon uncle of yours. Best pleasant surprise this season is how little he was on. The Theon/Jon scene was one of my favorite in this episode and Theon's redemption arc has been great.

I just realized this was a call back to the scene after the fall of Winterfell when Theon tried to rally his men for the Greyjoys and they were all like, "Um, nope" and hit him over the head.  This time the beating came first and then he was able to stir up some enthusiasm for rescuing his sister.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You could blame Tywin more than Tyrion.  Tywin knew Tyrion was innocent, but did everything he could to get him convicted and executed.  Plus, Tywin was ultimately responsible for the original grudge from Dorne, because of what The Mountain did to Elia Martell and her children.  In the books, do they say whether Tywin ordered The Mountain to rape and kill her, or did he just like raping and killing?

Tywin's plan worked almost perfectly. He didn't want Tyrion executed -- he wanted Jaime to do just what he did -- trade himself for Tyrion and leave the kingsguard, become lord of Casterly rock, marry, and have children named Lannister.

Tywin ordered Amory Leach (sp?) to kill the two children, and said nothing of Elia. Tywin didn't intend for her to be killed, and certainly to raped, but it never occurred to him to tell his hoodlums to not harm her. Elia was insignificant to Tywin.  He did want the two children murdered, but ciriticized them for being too brutal about it.  

There's some behind the scenes footage with both Kit and Emilia and they are making gagging faces and noises at the idea of having to play out boatsex. No idea whether that impacted on how short the scene wound up being. My guess is no -- that it's deliberately not being written as a love story.  But take it for what you will. 

[TobinAlbers]

21 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Cersei's children had been Robert's, then they would have had the Baratheon look because Baratheon genes are like Robert, they'll beat the shit out of the other genes.

The Targaryen genes tend to be a toss up when they care to get out of marrying their own family members or a Velaryon. Baelor Breakspear looked like his Dornish mother, but his brother Maekar had the silver blond hair and the purple eyes. Rhaenys looked like Elia, but Aegon looked like Rhaegar. 

Jon looks like his mother. He has her dark hair and grey eyes. 

I always wonder what Ned would've done if Jon had taken on Rhaegar's looks. There's no way to hide that hair unless you had a wicked hair dye schedule. He and Jon were lucky that those Stark genes dominated.

[Constantinople]

I know Bran's visions are supposed to be true, but it did occur to me that the charge of Littlefinger  betraying Ned was based on spectral evidence, the same sort of evidence used in the Salem Witch Trials.

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

.  Especially if she's left word(which we can assume) that she wasn't really kidnapped.

That's the big question now isn't it?  I get your point about how Lyanna had little manueverability or choice here. She was engaged to Robert, and she knew that he was a womanizing lout, and that she'd be miserable. And she had no say in the matter.

On the other hand, Rhaegar wants her out of some idea that she'll bear him a magic child. And the dude has a wife, a toddler, and a baby at home.  

Lyanna may have had the right idea, but the wrong guy.  

And to show them all smiley like they were devil may care was just all sorts of wrong. Either the characters were in the wrong or the writers on that one. 

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, littlemommy said:

So, of all the things to get hung up on, I got hung up on this:

Jaime says "Kill me". Cersei nods at Zombie Gregor to kill him. Gregor doesn't. Jaime walks away. Gregor continues to not kill him.

What the hell did I miss? I mean, I shouted "Noooo!" in dismay, because I love Jaime. Zombie Gregor always follows orders. Unless he inexplicably doesn't.

I wondered about this too.  Did Clegane follow Jaime out?  I was half expecting The Mountain to follow Jaime on horseback and try to kill Jaime, and have The Hound come by, creating Clegane Bowl.

Maybe the nod wasn't a kill him nod, but a "it's OK to let him go" nod?

[Francie]

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

Placating does not mean lying. Lying makes things worse.  A person who lies and breaks deals would be the worst diplomat. No one would ever go negotiate with him because they know he can go back on his word.

A good ruler would be someone who does their best to keep his/her promises.

No, sorry. It's not about having a 'I will never lie' policy. It's that once you agree on a deal, you have to stick to it. Or your word is worthless and the next time no one is going to believe you when you want to make a deal. Which means, no more deals or bargains. Which means Westeros gets royally fucked.

The fact that no one but Jon gets this is baffling. Especially the likes of Tyrion. Again, you don't see the hypocrisy of Tyrion asking Jon to lie about his deal with Dany and then thinking that Cersei will hold true to her word? If every person is like Cersei in Westeros, how would day to day life even work? How would kingdoms deal with each other, bargain and negotiate if no deal is sacred, everyone lies and there is no trust anymore? 

If Jon as king on the Iron Throne tries to negotiate with Yara Greyjoy why would she believe anything he says if he can just go back on his word?

Sticking to deals, oaths, vows, guest right etc. is the very fabric of Westeros - it's people like Tywin, Roose and now Cersei who don't hold true to these values. And they are reviled in Westeros for that. I don't expect Jon to be like them nor would I want him to be.

The point is to be more intelligent -- and not see things as simple black and white. There are times when presented with a demand like Cersei's, and you respond in a way that isn't a lie but doesn't instantly antagonize or alienate the other person.  Call it bargaining, if will. Or negotiating or influencing.  It's not a dirty thing. 

This reminds me of Arya and Sansa's showdown after Sansa let the lords down gently.  Arya thought Sansa should have been more forceful, and Sansa responded by saying she needs to be tactful.

That's the word! Jon needed to have been tactful at that moment. And what he did was stir the pot. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Francie

[Constantinople]

Wondering how the Army of the Dead would have gotten beyond the Wall if the Night King didn't have Viserion.

Also wondering how much of that army wasn't crushed by the collapsing wall

[Notwisconsin]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

Where was Gendry?

Probably on his way to Winterfell with all that obsidion/dragonglass. SOMEONE has to go and start up the upgrading of the smithy there before all the armies show up.

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Especially if she's left word(which we can assume) that she wasn't really kidnapped.

Can we?  There's no evidence of that.

[GraceK]

I find it really hilarious how Cersi calls every woman she meets a whore when she's the one having bastard babies with her twin brother and cheating on twin brother with her cousin. Also, I love how people who are bitching that Jon didn't lie seem to overlooking the fact that Cersei is the liar here. She orchestrated that whole thing and stabbed them all in the back immediately. Not one thing she said was true...so if Jon had lied and agreed to her terms and then she went on did she did anyway, Jon would be called an idiot again for giving up his oath and lying to a madwoman. It would have gained him nothing but looking like someone who also can't be trusted.

[YaddaYadda]

16 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

I always wonder what Ned would've done if Jon had taken on Rhaegar's looks. There's no way to hide that hair unless you had a wicked hair dye schedule. He and Jon were lucky that those Stark genes dominated.

I think that's the whole reason Ashara's name was planted as a possible mother. She had dark hair and purple eyes. Gerold Dayne has silver hair (with a black streak in it) and the purple eyes, Edric Dayne light blond hair with blue eyes that look purple. We have no description of Arthur, but I'm assuming he looks much like his family. If Jon had inherited some of those recognizable Targaryen genes, then Ashara Dayne was going to be a really good cover for that.