The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[GeeGolly]

7 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I get what you're saying. And to some degree I agree with it! 

But to me there's also a huge and crucial difference between the Duggarlings and the boomerangers. 

The boomerangers are back. And they're back after having first had the nerve, the sense of autonomy, the sense that they could to some extent navigate the wider world, in many cases an ambition or hope about what they could do there.....

And their parents believed their kids were free to grow up into full-fledged adults, adults who could make their own decisions and choices, and they supported the kids in at least some of those decisions and showed and, in most cases, still show faith that the kids will eventually navigate the world and that the world is navigable, even though sometimes there are problems.

And now that the boomerangers are back -- Yes, they're bruised and confused at this point -- but they've learned something from the experience, they'll continue to learn from it, and almost all of them will still have enough nerve and sense that they're free autonomous individuals to go out again.  And eventually most of them will have a good experience on their own. 

The Duggars,  by contrast, have now produced 12 adult kids -- 7 of them males -- and not a single one has felt free enough, autonomous enough, ambitious enough, comfortable with people other than their parents, or brave enough to go out on their own -- even to take a single class at community college or take a job with someone who isn't their father.

 And -- flip side of this -- it's quite plain that their parents -- in many many ways -- actively and persistently discouraged their kids from feeling like autonomous individuals, from having any hope that they'll ever be autonomous individuals, from feeling they have any right to make plans of their own or have hopes and ambitions of their own choosing, from having any trust that they could live among the wider population and not be contaminated and even possibly attacked by the people in the world, and MORE. 

And something is coming, eventually, that's going to make it all even worse for the Duggarlings, in my opinion.

The Duggarlings too are going to have to grapple with economic realities eventually. At some point the show will end, and JB and M either will be unable or unwilling or both to support the then-dozens of Duggarlings and Duggarlings Two who've been living in the sheltered compound in fear of the world and unaware of their own potential autonomy all this time. 

The money will run out. And the Duggarlings will have to grapple with the same boomeranging effect that a lot of other people are and will be grappling with.

However, as the Duggarlings try to grapple with it, most of them are likely to have children -- even several children -- be in one-earner-at-most couples, have had NO experience of dealing with something like this when they were single and young and fancy-free so they could learn how to cope with it....and they'll have no education and no job experience except for working for Jim Bob and Meeechelle, no trust or hope for the fellow humans outside the compound and among whom they'll then be forced to make a living.

And, worst of all, to me, they won't have any backing of a sense of autonomy that they won for themselves as they grew up, no close knowledge of the wider community that could possibly make them feel comfortable in it and not fear it as a devilish hell-hole bent on destroying them, no sense that their parents have ever had faith in them as adult individuals who could make their own decisions. Etc. 

To me, it's inexcusable abuse of your children to "raise them" at the same time as you're utterly discouraging them from becoming their own people and trying your best to scare them off any close encounters with the real world of people.

And I think that'll come back to bite at least some and maybe many of the Duggarlings in the ass, hard, as time goes on. 

I totally agree.

An area not too far from me, often referred to as the Mill Towns, lost their mills years ago. The mentality of the families was slow to catch up with the fact that there were no mills to hire the next generation. These beautiful, once thriving hilly towns became depressed with many folks relying on entitlements to make ends meet.

Finally some politicians partnered with area colleges and offered attractive deals to get kids on the college track and expose them to the many other options of supporting themselves. Funny thing is, while this opportunity worked for some, many of the females who took the offers eventually returned to the area, got married and stayed at home to raise their kids. While improved some, the communities remain relatively poor.

A family culture isn't always intentional even using the theory - when you know better, you do better - because knowing better isn't always obvious. Sometimes there's kind of a generational acceptance of this is what it is.

JB & M have certainly handicapped their children, however I don't think it's been intentional. Just like I don't believe the parents of the kids in the mill towns have been intentionally handicapping their children.

It will be interesting to see when the TLC money stops and the kidults are strapped for cash, who will accept living crammed into tiny homes on love offerings and who will strive for more. 

I'm guessing Jeremy will try for more, Austin won't be affected, Jessa will be pissed but do nothing and the rest will accept their situations and keep on just keeping on.

Most of us on these boards have similar 'white picket fence' ideals and many other folks don't.

As a therapist I see this first hand all the time, JB & M are not unique in keeping their family culture status quo, even when the status quo is less than ideal.

[bigskygirl]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

So, Smuggar's ego got the best of him? I've always thought that pre-Joshgate he supposed himself impervious to any criticism. I think his sudden downfall came out of left field in his mind.

It all started with JB and Michelle's ego getting in the way. The famewhore bug move on to Smugs also. They thought no one would find out the nasty family secrets, but their bigot, narcissistic, narrow minded views were their downfall.

Edited April 27, 2019 by bigskygirl

[JoanArc]

18 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

So, Smuggar's ego got the best of him? I've always thought that pre-Joshgate he supposed himself impervious to any criticism. I think his sudden downfall came out of left field in his mind.

 I’m sure he internalized the narrative of him just being curious and the whole situation being something minor,  Plus if you read his testimony that he gave prior to the scandal coming out, you can see that he was discussing it in public, he just didn’t realize no one else would see it that way. They’re all ego monsters.

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

JB & M have certainly handicapped their children, however I don't think it's been intentional. Just like I don't believe the parents of the kids in the mill towns have been intentionally handicapping their children.

I think I will disagree and say that if you review enough of the ATI materials, and their whole paradigm culture in May, an I think I will disagree and say that if you review enough of the ATI materials, and their  parenting culture as a whole, you will see that the intent is definitely to suppress and handicap children.  Children are extensions of yourself, trophies, and certainly not independent beings.  To them, it’s like worrying about the kind of culture your pets are growing up in. Who cares?  I did enjoy your example of the milltowns, and would point out  that it goes the other way too, with affluent or successful families breeding successful people who never really had to try in life and coast on the hard work of others.

 Jim Bob was third generation real estate with a family that was gradually building wealth and power in his area, which he has continued to do with very degrees of success.  The locals are currently worried that he is trying to buy out the town.  Michelle’s family seems to be nobodies, but she is doing better than the rest of them.  Meanwhile, they produce 19 stunted ignoramuses who will have a hard time making above minimum-wage unless they do something drastic. You can’t tell me that’s not intentional hobbling. 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

 I’m sure he internalized the narrative of him just being curious and the whole situation being something minor,  Plus if you read his testimony that he gave prior to the scandal coming out, you can see that he was discussing it in public, he just didn’t realize no one else would see it that way. They’re all ego monsters.

I think I will disagree and say that if you review enough of the ATI materials, and their whole paradigm culture in May, an I think I will disagree and say that if you review enough of the ATI materials, and their  parenting culture as a whole, you will see that the intent is definitely to suppress and handicap children.  Children are extensions of yourself, trophies, and certainly not independent beings.  To them, it’s like worrying about the kind of culture your pets are growing up in. Who cares?  I did enjoy your example of the milltowns, and would point out  that it goes the other way too, with affluent or successful families breeding successful people who never really had to try in life and coast on the hard work of others.

 Jim Bob was third generation real estate with a family that was gradually building wealth and power in his area, which he has continued to do with very degrees of success.  The locals are currently worried that he is trying to buy out the town.  Michelle’s family seems to be nobodies, but she is doing better than the rest of them.  Meanwhile, they produce 19 stunted ignoramuses who will have a hard time making above minimum-wage unless they do something drastic. You can’t tell me that’s not intentional hobbling. 

I would note that the people in my family who did what I and several other people  who saw it close up are 99 percent sure was intentional hobbling went to their graves insisting they were the sweetest, nicest, kindest, most virtuous people who never did one tiny thing in error or out of malice or meanness or power-tripping in their entire lives.

I don't know whether they actually believed that or not. But it's certainly what they claimed throughout and to the end. 

It was quite clear from observing them, however, that they got a big gleeful charge out of treating their family members like absolute crap and watching their misery, while being sweet as honey pie to everybody outside of the doomed circle to cover their damned tracks.

And the gleefulness of it reminds me a lot of Jim Bob's gleefulness. Which is part of why I'm so down on him. 

I do believe that at least some people can do something rotten intentionally while at the same time keeping themselves blissfully unconscious that they're doing any such thing.

I'm not sure that someone's facility in telling him or herself self-serving lies makes their actions any less intentional, though. Maybe it does. Maybe not. 

And since I've only seen Jim Bob on video, I could be reading him completely wrong. And I do know that some people keep whole households in a state of suspended animation in a sort of passive, unintentional way or even in a way that they full intend and think to be protective. But, as you say, reading all the Gothard stuff and then looking at what seems to be a very odd and extreme outcome for the children in this situation, I'm suspicious. 

Obviously, we'll never know what's going on inside JB and M. Benign or malign disasters? Could go either way. 

But I'll go to my grave 100 percent convinced that at least some people hobble their families on purpose, no matter what they claim. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Albanyguy]

20 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

But I'll go to my grave 100 percent convinced that at least some people hobble their families on purpose, no matter what they claim. 

ITA. And I think that in Jim Bob's case, it's only partly because of Gothard's strictures. A strong component is his determination that none of his children will ever outshine him. He will do whatever it takes to keep any of them from surpassing him financially, politically or socially.

[jcbrown]

3 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

ITA. And I think that in Jim Bob's case, it's only partly because of Gothard's strictures. A strong component is his determination that none of his children will ever outshine him. He will do whatever it takes to keep any of them from surpassing him financially, politically or socially.

Exactly this. I think Boob is profoundly insecure (and rightly so, I might add) and takes it out on his family by ensuring none of them is ever able to challenge his incredibly fragile ego.

[bigskygirl]

10 hours ago, jcbrown said:

Exactly this. I think Boob is profoundly insecure (and rightly so, I might add) and takes it out on his family by ensuring none of them is ever able to challenge his incredibly fragile ego.

Not enough likes in the world for this post. I also put Deredick in the same category.

[xwordfanatik]

The man in charge of the place I thankfully retired from, promoted to supervisor, some of the dumbest, laziest people on earth.  He never wanted anyone as smart as he believed he was, to be in management.  That way, he could manipulate everyone and pat himself on the back, as just the cleverest little guy God ever created.

Oh, and he claimed to be Christian.  He was anything but, by his actions.

I see a similarity there in the persona of grand poobah Mr. Boob.

[ginger90]

[fonfereksglen]

As well as children, now they are hoarding pianos!  Singalongs.  Please.......

[DangerousMinds]

Is she wearing a Bump it in her hair?😆😆😆

[babyhouseman]

Those singalongs must be a snooze, probably only religious songs. The Howlers and Lost Girls can probably rock out to "Jesus Loves Me". 

[BitterApple]

26 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Is she wearing a Bump it in her hair?😆😆😆

The higher the hair, the closer to God.

[bigskygirl]

3 minutes ago, babyhouseman said:

Those singalongs must be a snooze, probably only religious songs. The Howlers and Lost Girls can probably rock out to "Jesus Loves Me". 

Reminds me of the one episode of 7th Heaven when Sam and David kept singing "Jesus Loves Me" to Eric.

I take Which is More Obnoxious: Duggar Sing-a-long or Instrument Playing for $200.00 Alex.

[louannems]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Is she wearing a Bump it in her hair?😆😆😆

Jana has always styled her hair with a Mormon bump!

[JoanArc]

Renovating a church? Where is this going?

[MsJamieDornan]

8 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Is she wearing a Bump it in her hair?😆😆😆

Probably too cheap to buy one. She just used and old sponge.

Maybe rolled up toilet paper.

Edited May 5, 2019 by MsJamieDornan

[Barb23]

On 4/25/2019 at 6:10 PM, Jeeves said:

Oops ^^^

I wonder why they can't donate the newer piano to a church or a school (God forbid) that needs one.

[jcbrown]

7 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Oops ^^^

I wonder why they can't donate the newer piano to a church or a school (God forbid) that needs one.

I'm sure it never occurs to them. The Church of Boob is where possessions and children go to moulder and have the life snuffed out of them. Jesus first, Others second, Yourself last, my ass.

[FizzyPuff]

5 hours ago, jcbrown said:

I'm sure it never occurs to them. The Church of Boob is where possessions and children go to moulder and have the life snuffed out of them. Jesus first, Others second, Yourself last, my ass.

I would love it if JB & Michelle could list the times they put Jesus first and them self's last. 

[Gweilo]

I'm betting that the church/schoolhouse/whatever is being renovated so the next married Duggar can live there. 'Cos it will be free housing, doncha know?

[MargeGunderson]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:11 PM, Albanyguy said:

And he was going to a job where he would be surrounded by people who believed exactly the same things he was raised to believe; who hated all the same people he was taught to hate; who would reinforce his sense of superiority (he's a white, male "Christian", therefore he's better than just about everybody in the world) and who would coddle and protect him (at least until his dirty little secret was revealed and brought scandal down upon them). Taking the FRC job didn't represent any kind of challenge or growth for Josh. He just traded one cozy little bubble for another.

And look how that turned out for him! His experience is a huge cautionary tale for all of the others - if he couldn't be safe among people like that, how can any of them go out into the big bad world and not succumb to Satan? 

[Lunera]

I cackled at that first picture.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Lunera

[bigskygirl]

Darn it! I already had a headache before reading the above post and now my blasted bull crap meter is ringing like there is no tomorrow. Darn Duggars.

[xwordfanatik]

🤮

Cute little animal.  Mama, not so much.  Does Meeeechelle ever look away from a camera? What a load.  Laughed at 'sacrificing money.'

[JoanArc]

Jana, she dumped her kids off on you to raise. She wouldn't exist as a mother without enslaved 7 year old you (and your sisters). 

She aint all that. Let perfect mom go.

[babyhouseman]

6 hours ago, Lunera said:

I cackled at that first picture.

 I think Michelle wrote this.

[MargeGunderson]

6 hours ago, Lunera said:

Is that what’s been nesting in her hair all this time?

[jcbrown]

18 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Is that what’s been nesting in her hair all this time?

It looks better cared for than her hair.

[lulu69]

Is it evil that I wished the raccoon suddenly went rabid and ripped Ma Kettle's face off?

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, lulu69 said:

Is it evil that I wished the raccoon suddenly went rabid and ripped Ma Kettle's face off?

I might consider that the wrath of God. 

[MargeGunderson]

7 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I might consider that the wrath of God. 

If that happens, it’s clearly a sign that Satan has built a fortress  in that raccoon’s heart. 

[floridamom]

In what dilusional world is Jana living in? Michelle has never sacrificed anything for her children. It seems that this post should have been written for Jana by the younger kids.

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, floridamom said:

In what dilusional world is Jana living in? Michelle has never sacrificed anything for her children. It seems that this post should have been written for Jana by the younger kids.

Yeah, but Meeechelle and JB (and the people in Gothardland, too,  no doubt, as well as the entities that have awarded Meeechelle multiple MOTY trophies) have told them over and over and over again that she's the very very bestest mother in the whole universe and if they had some other mother they'd soon realize how incredibly, amazingly lucky  blessed they are to have her. 

It's pretty easy to brainwash people when you have them from birth, surround them with other people you're brainwashing, don't let them near outsiders and actively discourage any of them from thinking because thinking threatens they'll be swallowed up eternally by the flames of hell. 

Notice that even Jer is spouting this crap. In his Mother's Day message he includes Meeechelle among the handful of people who would be the ones he'd super-duper-schmooper-mega-trust to protect his little daughter. Meeechelle protect his adored kid! When Meeechelle's the one who utterly and repeatedly failed -- and essentially refused --  to protect his wife! 

And, yeah, he may have said it largely to suck up. Nevertheless, he said it. And he didn't have to. He could just have skipped it. So the brainwashing echo chamber just keeps getting bigger. Why, my goodness, new people who come into the family are just as super-duper-schmooper-mega-impressed with our godly Mama as we are! She is so godly! 

Jana's never had an another mother. She's never had an actual friend outside her family's and Gothard's purview. She's almost certainly never been to many other people's houses where she could see actual mothers in action. She's read few books and none that weren't pre-approved by her crap parents and the crap Gothard enterprise. 

In other words, she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about. 

And Meechelle's an irrational little mean crazy person.  So Jana's almost certainly quietly learned over the years that it's important to give Meechelle repeated tongue baths to prevent her -- and God -- from going ballistic on your ass. A lot of ancient gods made you throw your firstborn child into a volcano. But everybody went around praising those gods and telling everybody how marvelous they were. 

When you're the one in power, mistreating those without power often wins you even more adulation. Because without them realizing it you've made them fearful and you've made them feel that they're crap and not worthy to stand tall in the light of your magnificence. Hence the adoration of JB and M by their deeply deluded children, in my opinion. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Barb23]

Jana left out the part that Mechelle could have died while giving birth to each one of them.  I know Mechelle reminds the kids of this on their birthdays, but I'm sure she likes to gloat about this on Mother's Day too.

[JoanArc]

6 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

Jana left out the part that Mechelle could have died while giving birth to each one of them.  I know Mechelle reminds the kids of this on their birthdays, but I'm sure she likes to gloat about this on Mother's Day too.

'I wish I had!"

[drafan]

22 hours ago, Lunera said:

I cackled at that first picture.

Meechelle looks insanely happy in a deranged way. Did JB tell her she gave birth to this critter?  #20blessingsandcounting  #getoutthemybreastfriend

[Vaysh]

4 hours ago, drafan said:

Meechelle looks insanely happy in a deranged way. Did JB tell her she gave birth to this critter?  #20blessingsandcounting  #getoutthemybreastfriend

Mechelle should've become a crazy cat lady, not a crazy baby lady as she genuinely seems to like animals. She hasn't got a clue how to treat them right but I've never seen her look happier or more animated than when she's cuddling, handling, or even talking about animals. Like her pet tarantula she had as a kid. Whose leg fell off. Because of reasons. And she looked very cheerful when she was stuffing that orphan kitten into a jug for the night.

...

You know, nevermind. Forget I said anything.

[toodles]

On 5/5/2019 at 7:52 AM, Barb23 said:

Oops ^^^

I wonder why they can't donate the newer piano to a church or a school (God forbid) that needs one.

Well that's just crazy talk😅😅

[GeeGolly]

I think Jana's Mother's Day post is a combination of truth and self-preservation. We posters all glom onto a theory or piece of fact and snark it up into gigantic proportions. I do believe Michelle has given more time to her children than we give her credit for and believe that Jana hasn't been nearly as involved in the kids' upbringing as we make her out to be. I'm guessing much of what she says has a ring of truth to it. For the parts that don't ring true Jana needs to believe they are true.

Even healthy families sometimes have difficulty separating loved ones' faults and weaknesses from themselves and tend to own them. In overly enmeshed families the line of self and others is even blurrier. So when Jana and Jessa reinvent history by defending their parents, they're also defending themselves. 

Also a love for a parent runs deep. Many adults of less than stellar parents feel confused and sometimes tortured by their mixed emotions of deeply loving and hating a parent who abused, neglected, etc, them.

I imagine the Duggar 19, who don't recognize any abuse from their parents, mostly believe JB & M are pretty good parents. And when a doubt creeps in they quickly stuff it down or rationalize it because they're overly enmeshed.

[lookeyloo]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Jana's Mother's Day post is a combination of truth and self-preservation. We posters all glom onto a theory or piece of fact and snark it up into gigantic proportions. I do believe Michelle has given more time to her children than we give her credit for and believe that Jana hasn't been nearly as involved in the kids' upbringing as we make her out to be. I'm guessing much of what she says has a ring of truth to it. For the parts that don't ring true Jana needs to believe they are true.

Even healthy families sometimes have difficulty separating loved ones' faults and weaknesses from themselves and tend to own them. In overly enmeshed families the line of self and others is even blurrier. So when Jana and Jessa reinvent history by defending their parents, they're also defending themselves. 

Also a love for a parent runs deep. Many adults of less than stellar parents feel confused and sometimes tortured by their mixed emotions of deeply loving and hating a parent who abused, neglected, etc, them.

I imagine the Duggar 19, who don't recognize any abuse from their parents, mostly believe JB & M are pretty good parents. And when a doubt creeps in they quickly stuff it down or rationalize it because they're overly enmeshed.

thank you for saying this.  I agree with you.  We only see snippets, edited, and there is a lot more time in the day/week/year/lifetime that we don't see.  And I still think their beliefs are abhorrent.

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And when a doubt creeps in they quickly stuff it down or rationalize it because they're overly enmeshed.

No kidding!    ;  )

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

thank you for saying this.  I agree with you.  We only see snippets, edited, and there is a lot more time in the day/week/year/lifetime that we don't see.  And I still think their beliefs are abhorrent.

I think Michelle was a poor mother for a variety of reasons but I don’t doubt that Jana actually loves her and means many of the things she says. The first set of kids (Josh-Jinger) were ACTUALLY raised by JB & Michelle and probably got the most “typical” amount of parental attention (outside of Josie). As the eldest girl Jana was Michelle’s “assistant” and likely she got self esteem from that. 

[Churchhoney]

27 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

And when a doubt creeps in they quickly stuff it down or rationalize it because they're overly enmeshed.

No kidding!  ;  )

Have you watched up close while people you care about keep doing this and drive themselves quietly crazy with guilt and torment and self-questioning and the struggle to pretend that everything's okay for them despite how squelched and squashed they are  for years and years? Because I have. Watched one do it all the way to her deathbed. 

So when I see people who were thoughtless and nuts enough to overly enmesh 19 (only they wish it were 21) kids just for the sake of their own egos, I don't think it's forgivable any more!

What kind of adults do this to so many kids without either one noticing, while they just keep churning them out and enmeshing them for their own ego gratification? 

Minimizing their taking this to absolutely absurd and cruel limits just because they're doing something that, yes, is similar to and arises from some common human behaviors and impulses makes no sense to me.  And, in fact, I consider it dangerous. Because isn't every human behavior, no matter how extreme and terrible, really the acting out of some typical human impulse taken to a crazy limit? But that doesn't make every behavior-taken-to-the-limit right. Or make the people damaged by those actions any less damaged. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Michelle was a poor mother for a variety of reasons but I don’t doubt that Jana actually loves her and means many of the things she says. The first set of kids (Josh-Jinger) were ACTUALLY raised by JB & Michelle and probably got the most “typical” amount of parental attention (outside of Josie). As the eldest girl Jana was Michelle’s “assistant” and likely she got self esteem from that. 

How many women of Jana's age who have self esteem are still their parents' little full-time house servants and full-time caregivers for a dozen-plus more kids the mother spat out? 

I've seen people go on "loving" forever a mother who treated them like absolute shit. And yet they're the ones who feel guilty for occasionally doubting that their mother is the queen of virtue. 

Of course Jana does love Meechelle. She's been utterly isolated and this is what daughters are programmed to do and what she, specifically, was programmed to do in their Gothard-infected household. 

But I guarantee that a kid truly loving a parent means nothing about whether that parent actually merits that love in any way. I'm aware that pretty much no one who hasn't lived this actually comprehends it, however. 

I'm just noting that I have a fringe perspective on this that is nevertheless experience-based. 

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

No kidding!  ;  )

Have you watched up close while people you care about keep doing this and drive themselves quietly crazy with guilt and torment and self-questioning and the struggle to pretend that everything's okay for them despite how squelched and squashed they are  for years and years? Because I have. Watched one do it all the way to her deathbed. 

So when I see people who were thoughtless and nuts enough to overly enmesh 19 (only they wish it were 21) kids just for the sake of their own egos, I don't think it's forgivable any more!

What kind of adults do this to so many kids without either one noticing, while they just keep churning them out and enmeshing them for their own ego gratification? 

Minimizing their taking this to absolutely absurd and cruel limits just because they're doing something that, yes, is similar to and arises from some common human behaviors and impulses makes no sense to me.  And, in fact, I consider it dangerous. Because isn't every human behavior, no matter how extreme and terrible, really the acting out of some typical human impulse taken to a crazy limit? But that doesn't make every behavior-taken-to-the-limit right. Or make the people damaged by those actions any less damaged. 

Am I missing something? I was commenting on Jana's post not JB's and M's parenting. What did I minimize?

[Churchhoney]

18 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Am I missing something? I was commenting on Jana's post not JB's and M's parenting. What did I minimize?

I'm sure you didn't intend to minimize anything.

But, to me, it seems you could easily be understood as completely poo-pooing the idea that some of those kids may be way more damaged by the level of enmeshment that their situation has forced on them than we'll ever see or realize from the outside.  

For me, virtually all of the audience spends all its time normalizing the Duggars (and the Rodriguezes and others). Looking at them as people who are eccentric and annoying but fun to watch and not giving any thought to the fact that being made part of a slime mold the way Jana has been can be extremely damaging to some people, even though it may not be to others. 

So I just heard you giving people a reason to think that the Duggars aren't really dangerous to their offspring because Jana's doing something explainable. 

Whereas I feel about JB and M the way JB and M feel about abortionists. 

Sorry if I was insulting. I agree with what you say she was doing. But I can't freak out when I hear any of it described in a way that anybody could take as normal because I'm so sure it isn't. Maybe they're nothing like my family, but the vibe the kids give off when they praise them is so similar that it enrages me. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

But I guarantee that a kid truly loving a parent means nothing about whether that parent actually merits that love in any way. I'm aware that pretty much no one who hasn't lived this actually comprehends it, however. 

I agree with your entire post, although I’m just quoting this part. 

I never said or meant to insinuate that Michelle was DESERVING of such love, only that Jana actually loved her. I don’t think Jana is being insincere when she laments that she loves her mother. 

Yes, people often go on loving people that have abused them horribly and feel BADLY for looking out for themselves; if they ever grow that much. 

Of course I respect your opinion and value your insight as someone who’s lived through a similar upbringing and came out the other side an emotionally healthy adult. 

[Churchhoney]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree with your entire post, although I’m just quoting this part. 

I never said or meant to insinuate that Michelle was DESERVING of such love, only that Jana actually loved her. I don’t think Jana is being insincere when she laments that she loves her mother. 

Yes, people often go on loving people that have abused them horribly and feel BADLY for looking out for themselves; if they ever grow that much. 

You're right! Sorry I'm going off like a bomb right now.

I know you didn't say that. For some reason, I'm just scared to death today that everything that's said will be taken to mean that JB and M are just eccentric but regular, fine people. 

Don't know why I'm so oversensitive to this today. Do know that I probably shouldn't be around any discussions of these people as a tv show, because sometimes -- like now -- the fear that their behavior and beliefs will get normalized and seen as entertainment just makes me explode like a crazy person. Sorry about that!

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

thank you for saying this.  I agree with you.  We only see snippets, edited, and there is a lot more time in the day/week/year/lifetime that we don't see.  And I still think their beliefs are abhorrent.

The snippets that we say are edited, but that could go either way.  I tend to think TLC shows the "best" moments of their lives. TLC seems to give these people edits that make them look good and this was even more true before the Joshgates. Of all the Duggars, TLC seems to particularly try to show JB and Michelle in a good way.