The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[MunichNark]

I just cannot even begin to stomach that Joy may well be playing a housewife, having sex and having to be grown up within a few months. I just can't.

Don't do it girl, you will rue the day. What kind of parents do this do their kids???

[Minivanessa]

10 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

I just watched part of the Strictest Parents show.  Austin was 14 at that time, and could have passed for a Duggar.  His family is so much like the Duggars, it's as if he could be a brother to Joy.  The first three guys were each different in their own way, but this guy is not different at all, he's a Duggar clone.  That seems like a very unexciting marriage to me.  Poor Joy, wait till the newness wears off of that relationship, and she finds herself in the country cleaning a camp for ever and ever.  Looks like a very boring, dull life to me.

TBH, the only even slightly interesting thing about Joy and her intended, is the discussion right here. Those two seem like the world's most boring fundie nutjobs. Ever. 

[TaxNerd]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

 

My Spidey sense says holiday engagement, early spring wedding (April).

She'll still be 19.  Wow!  It is not entertaining watching a teen wedding, just so sad.

[BitterApple]

The sad thing for Joy is that she's so naive she believes this marriage means freedom, however she doesn't realize she's jumping from the frying pan into the fire. She'll go from being an unpaid slave at the TTH to being an unpaid slave at "family camp." Austin is no different than the Duggar boys in that his well-being is 100% dependent on the generosity and whims of Daddy. And Mr. Forsyth strikes me as being an even bigger loon than Boob. Joy might as well have married into the Maxhells.

Edited November 18, 2016 by BitterApple

[lulu69]

I've been trying to think of motivations , at least in Joy's mind, for courting/marrying Austin:

1. Pressure from Boob to keep the Duggar teevee train rolling (obviously)

2. Freedom from the TTH

3. Excuse from daily TTH chores

4. Social acceptance by married sisters (the divide between the married and unmarried in gothard circles) At this point more of Joy's sister moms are married than not.

5. Attention and 'specialness' for once in Joy's life

6. Blinding approval by her parents 

7. Feeling like a real grown up

8. Fulfilling god's plan for her and filling her quiver

Any others to add?

Edited November 18, 2016 by lulu69

[sometimesy]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

TBH, the only even slightly interesting thing about Joy and her intended, is the discussion right here. Those two seem like the world's most boring fundie nutjobs. Ever. 

She is the least exciting Duggar girl, and having a boring fiancé isn't going to help the season. Expect something like this past season, but worse. Duggar boys will have to go 2 or 3 at a time to spectacular brides.

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The sad thing for Joy is that she's so naive she believes this marriage means freedom, however she doesn't realize she's jumping from the frying pan into the fire. She'll go from being an unpaid slave at the TTH to being an unpaid slave at "family camp." Austin is no different than the Duggar boys in that his well-being is 100% dependent on the generosity and whims of Daddy. And Mr. Forsyth strikes me as being an even bigger loon than Boob. Joy might as well have married into the Maxhells.

I just don't see Joy as naïve. To me Joy is dimwitted, dull and smug, but not naïve. Something tells me Joy isn't really useful to the Duggs. Joy may be very happy to have her 'season of TLC/life' with anyone who was cast to play the groom.

Someone mentioned they haven't created a fake interest for Joy, I think it's tough with what they have to work with.

Snark!!!

[StaceyNotStacie]

Since Jessa and Jinger are probably going to be joined at the hip, maybe this was her way of being able to spend more time with Jill with "couple dates". 

Joy seems a bit more low maintenance than the other girls, so I am curious as to what her wedding would look like, especially with her most likely being a teen bride. Will she go the large wedding route similar to her sisters or will it resemble a backyard shotgun teenage wedding?

[RazzleberryPie]

30 minutes ago, lulu69 said:

I've been trying to think of motivations , at least in Joy's mind, for courting/marrying Austin:

1. Pressure from Boob to keep the Duggar teevee train rolling (obviously)

2. Freedom from the TTH

3. Excuse from daily TTH chores

4. Social acceptance by married sisters (the divide between the married and unmarried in gothard circles) At this point more of Joy's sister moms are married than not.

5. Attention and 'specialness' for once in Joy's life

6. Blinding approval by her parents 

7. Feeling like a real grown up

8. Fulfilling god's plan for her and filling her quiver

Any others to add?

She'all say 8), but 3, 4 & 7 are the most obvious reasons to me. She was very small when the moved into the TTH and TLC showed up. I doubt if she remembers the poorhouse days, so the thought of worrying about money may never cross her mind.

[ginger90]

I don't dislike Joy or anything. Her courtship,  and wedding are just not of interest to me. I don't know if it's because it's one of those been there done that things, or I am just sick of it all.

[BitterApple]

51 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I don't dislike Joy or anything. Her courtship,  and wedding are just not of interest to me. I don't know if it's because it's one of those been there done that things, or I am just sick of it all.

Probably because we're just in for a rehash of the rehash of the rehash. More dull episodes explaining the courtship rules which have already been explained a hundred thousand times. Flashbacks to the Dullard, Seewald and Duggalo romances. The married couples dispensing the same lame advice about "enjoying every moment." A totally "unexpected" proposal where Joy accepts the requisite half-carat solitaire proffered from White's.  Finally, the "All About Joy" episode leading up to what will be an embarrassingly low-rent and classless wedding. Pregnancy announcement to follow within three months. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Edited November 18, 2016 by BitterApple

[Christina87]

6 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The sad thing for Joy is that she's so naive she believes this marriage means freedom, however she doesn't realize she's jumping from the frying pan into the fire. She'll go from being an unpaid slave at the TTH to being an unpaid slave at "family camp." Austin is no different than the Duggar boys in that his well-being is 100% dependent on the generosity and whims of Daddy. And Mr. Forsyth strikes me as being an even bigger loon than Boob. Joy might as well have married into the Maxhells.

I agree about them being just as bad, but I do wonder why they only have two children.  Could it maybe be that they were late converts? If they had become fundie when the kids were young, or even preteens, that could explain why they're so fanatical now  

[RazzleberryPie]

Are they just very conservative Baptists and not fundie or quiverfull? More like Derrick's family?

[kalamac]

11 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The sad thing for Joy is that she's so naive she believes this marriage means freedom, however she doesn't realize she's jumping from the frying pan into the fire. She'll go from being an unpaid slave at the TTH to being an unpaid slave at "family camp." Austin is no different than the Duggar boys in that his well-being is 100% dependent on the generosity and whims of Daddy. And Mr. Forsyth strikes me as being an even bigger loon than Boob. Joy might as well have married into the Maxhells.

I bet JB is thrilled to foist one of his more boring daughters on a boy he won't have to employ because he's already under the control of his own family. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't pushing the boys to court, because he has actually looked at the numbers and realized he can't afford too many more mouths to feed even with the TLC money.

[Micks Picks]

I don't know what Jinger thinks.  Or how she feels.  I got no indication in the little blurb I saw.  I have no audio on this computer now so will go to a tablet and try to get you tube audio if I can find it.  I find it a little odd that she is in a courtship so young with a guy she has known so long.  I'm sure she knows her job will be cleaning the camp, cooking the food,  doing scutwork.  But maybe they have animals she enjoys and sports she can play.  I rather think she has done plenty of work around the ranch for a long time, in exchange for something there, not Austin, that she found fun.  Lord knows she wan't blessed with brains.  This could be good for her and she'll never know she is exploited.  

[MunichNark]

Why do you seem to think that Joy is dim and dull? Obviously I can't watch the show per se, sadly, so I'm a bit uninformed about recent developments.

[becca3891]

On 11/17/2016 at 9:03 AM, Jeeves said:

 

@becca3891 - you're a nicer, or at least more optimistic, person than I am. Because I don't think that Austin's dad and JimBob would have been close friends all this time if they didn't share that fundie world view.

Well, I hadn't done any reading at all on Austin's family. Now that I have, my view isn't optimistic. I think Boob may regret that his daughters haven't been marrying diehard Gothardites, and the Forsythes sound like they probably are. So, heavy on the patriarchy, not that all fundies aren't. Poor Joy.

On 11/17/2016 at 11:52 AM, BitterApple said:

Ditto for Brandon Keilen, Michael Bates' husband. He had no interest in marriage either until he was shoved in Michael's direction. 

That's really interesting. It's definitely true, the way Brandon tells it on his website. He hadn't even considered Michael, or anyone really, until his sister strongly encouraged him to. And it's always been obvious that she's far more in love than he is. 

17 hours ago, sometimesy said:

 

13 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I agree about them being just as bad, but I do wonder why they only have two children.  Could it maybe be that they were late converts? If they had become fundie when the kids were young, or even preteens, that could explain why they're so fanatical now  

Hard to say, but "trusting god with the size of our family" people can still have fertility issues. I knew of a couple that was frustrated for that exact reason -- they avoided birth control but still only wound up with a few kids and a ton of miscarriages. 

3 hours ago, MunichNark said:

Why do you seem to think that Joy is dim and dull? Obviously I can't watch the show per se, sadly, so I'm a bit uninformed about recent developments.

They're all dim and dull, but it may not be low IQs. Anyone is going to be dim and dull when they never do anything to expand and engage their minds. Someone was saying that "interests" have been shown for the four older girls, but as I was thinking about it, what was Jessa's interest supposed to be? I can't think of anything. 

[becca3891]

I'm sorry if someone has already posted this, but here's the link to the episode of World's Strictest Parents featuring the Forsythes! I'm not a fan of that overly scripted variety of reality show, but it's clear that their lifestyle is all real. Then there was the dead giveaway: the "defrauding" reference. At least the older girls were spared having to marry into Gothardism, although the Seewalds are in the same camp with Vision Forum. http://www.cmt.com/videos/misc/398879/worlds-strictest-parents-108-the-forsyth-family-1.jhtml

Edited November 19, 2016 by becca3891

[GeeGolly]

Joy is a tomboy in the sense she liked skateboarding, and playing basketball, but watching the sibling camping trip it became more apparent that she is not the nature loving, hiking, camping kind of girl.

She was the forgotten child much like Jordyn. The only reason we remembered her all these years is because she was the girl that came after the boys. I'm sure JB & M said many a time, "There's a Joy?"

The announcement, the Forsyth website - I hope they know something we don't know because this courtship could be over before they can hashtag tooyoungtomarry.

[Nysha]

I'm in the "Jana and John-David don't want to marry" camp, since if they did, they would be by now. I think that John-David is still a good catch in the Gothard world. He has a job and can fly a plane; he might not get a Gothard royalty bride, but I'm pretty sure if he wanted a wife, there are hundreds of IFB girls who would jump at the chance.

The problem with the rest of the Duggar boys is that they don't have any source of income outside TLC and daddy. While Jim-Bob can probably afford to support his kidults forever, he can't support their spouses and quiverful children, too. 

[lianau]

The thing is , Joy had a personality a few years ago and then she entered puberty and got the full Duggar treatment .

[sometimesy]

Joy says she doesn't need math because she isn't going to be an engineer. Things like that make her sound stupid.

[RazzleberryPie]

14 minutes ago, sometimesy said:

Joy says she doesn't need math because she isn't going to be an engineer. Things like that make her sound stupid.

But....she's going to help run a small family business, and she doesn't need math for that? She'll never do any sort of home construction or repairs? Is she never going to buy groceries or use a recipe? Read a dosage label for medicine for her future brood? She may not need trigonometry, but EVERYBODY needs a good understanding of basic math, geometry, ratios, etc. She sounds stupid, naive, guillable and pitiful. 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 

The announcement, the Forsyth website - I hope they know something we don't know because this courtship could be over before they can hashtag tooyoungtomarry.

Yeah, but they still would have gotten the extra website hits they're getting now from having her in that picture. So there's that.

[Sew Sumi]

11 hours ago, becca3891 said:

Well, I hadn't done any reading at all on Austin's family. Now that I have, my view isn't optimistic. I think Boob may regret that his daughters haven't been marrying diehard Gothardites, and the Forsythes sound like they probably are. So, heavy on the patriarchy, not that all fundies aren't. Poor Joy.

That's really interesting. It's definitely true, the way Brandon tells it on his website. He hadn't even considered Michael, or anyone really, until his sister strongly encouraged him to. And it's always been obvious that she's far more in love than he is. 

Hard to say, but "trusting god with the size of our family" people can still have fertility issues. I knew of a couple that was frustrated for that exact reason -- they avoided birth control but still only wound up with a few kids and a ton of miscarriages. 

They're all dim and dull, but it may not be low IQs. Anyone is going to be dim and dull when they never do anything to expand and engage their minds. Someone was saying that "interests" have been shown for the four older girls, but as I was thinking about it, what was Jessa's interest supposed to be? I can't think of anything. 

Neither Jessa nor Joy have expressed interests in anything, really. However, you can see intelligence in Jessa; she got the salesman hustle from her father. I see aboslutely NO ambition from Joy at all. Not to mention, her talking heads are bottom of the barrel, and I'm not talking about a very high bar of potential intelligence here. She just seems so...vacant, basically parroting what others say rather than injecting ANY original thought of her own.

And they're going to marry this girl off in a few months! That's why I really think that this was an arranged marriage between the parents. Let's not forget that Boob had an arrangement with Jim Holt for Smuggar and Holt's daughter Kayleigh that thankfully (for Kayleigh) fell through. Any or all of these offspring may have known that their parents wanted them paired off. But would Smuggar and/or Austin have had to express some interest to get the ball rolling? (I'm sure Austin got plenty interested once Joy started filling out.) But he was possibly pressured into courthship like David Waller and Brandon Keilen were, and Joy was a "safe" choice. I just don't see any real affection between the two. 

She's just soooo immature, nowhere near ready for marriage. 

[Albanyguy]

6 hours ago, Nysha said:

I'm in the "Jana and John-David don't want to marry" camp, since if they did, they would be by now.

I'm more in the "Jim Bob doesn't want Jana and John David to marry" camp. They, like all their siblings, have been raised to believe that Daddy's word is law. If Jim Bob shoved a prospective mate in front of either of them and said "It's courtin' time!", they'd be married and popping out babies right now.  If either of them expressed a desire to find a spouse and he shut them down with "I'll let you know when it's the proper time for you to be thinking of that.", they'd nod their heads and say "Yes, Daddy."

I think he decided long ago that Jana will be the official stay-at-home spinster daughter. She will continue running the house and raising the young 'uns until Josie gets married and then she will segue into waiting hand and foot on Jim Bob and Michelle in their old age (Michelle has no intention of spending her golden years chained to a washer/dryer like Grandma Duggar).  Of the older girls, Jana was the obvious choice for the sacrificial lamb: Jill is Jim Bob's favorite daughter and Jessa is Michelle's favorite, so they were "rewarded" with husbands, weddings and gift registries. Jana is nobody's favorite and deserves no consideration. Of course, they can't acknowledge that publicly without making themselves look bad, so they foster the notion that Jana is "picky" and that she's  holding out for Prince Charming to arrive.

As for John David, I don't think Jim Bob has any interest in seeing his sons get married. It will have to happen someday, at least for some of them, but he's in no particular hurry for that day to arrive.  Josh was railroaded into an early marriage because he was a ticking time bomb and it was believed that Anna would curb his wayward sexual impulses. But there's nothing to be gained by allowing any of the younger boys to marry. Their weddings won't thrill the leghumpers and generate ratings for TLC like their sisters' weddings, added daughters-in-law and grandchildren will be a huge drain on the Duggar finances and if the boys stay single, Jim Bob can keep them around as unpaid manual laborers (or in John David's case, an unpaid family pilot). It's worth noting that only one of the boys, Josiah, has even come close to an official courtship and that was over as soon as it began (indeed, Jim Bob may have been the one to pull the plug when he realized that there was nothing in it for him).

Edited November 20, 2016 by Albanyguy

[TomServo]

I'm only a few minutes into the World's Strictest Parents episode, and I was surprised that the subjects were American.  I watched the show a few times when it was newish (partly because a family from my hometown was on it--they didn't seem super-strict so much as "we live on a farm, so yes everyone has to do some manual labor because that's how a farm works and you won't have time for shenanigans"), and I had remembered it being about unruly international kids being shipped off to discover how American families operate.

I did giggle a bit when they zoomed in on the flip-flops in the intro.

[cereality]

I tend to agree that JB hasn't married off a son yet bc he's not interested in taking on an additional financial burden.

In these patriarchal cultures, the reason a girl gets married differs from why a guy gets married. A girl HAS TO get married bc she NEEDS TO. Pre-marriage, her father provides for her -- financially; makes her decisions; "protects her." But obviously parents get older, so a girl NEEDS TO marry bc she NEEDS a man who will provide for her after her father can't; she NEEDS a man who will "look out" for her and make her decisions. And she NEEDS something to do and what higher prize in their faith than birthing babies and raising them and keeping house for a man?

A guy -- yeah it's nice if he marries and has a family. But at the end of the day, he can only do that if he is able to financially provide for a wife and kids. That's why in "traditional" cultures (not the Duggars) they put a lot more emphasis on a son's education than a daughters bc they realize a son has to be able support a family, while a daughter doesn't. In this case, JB is getting a string of loser sons in laws that he already has to provide for - so he hasn't even been able to get daughters off his payroll. Then there's the one married son who turned out to be a cheater who can't hold down a job, so he's had to take that daughter in law and those 3 or 4 (can't remember?) grandkids back onto his payroll. Last thing he needs is MORE mouths to feed/houses to provide -- which is exactly what'll happen given that they have never encouraged any of their sons to pursue any kind of college, trade school, or career. Rather when the sons get to be of age, he sets them up with a "business" -- but the reality is that JB knows that buying used cars and selling them out of an open field is not going to support Josh + Anna + their 3-4 kids; plus a wife and 3-4 kids for each of Josiah; Joseph; Jed; and Jeremiah. Selling a used Toyota every now and again can't support 30 people. It seems like JD is the only one of these people who is/can be self supporting, yet I don't think his towing business can take on more than 1 other brother and all the other things he does with construction, police, piloting etc. requires working for other people who won't hire any of his brothers because they have no skills or training and no desire to develop any.

[riverblue22]

Well, at least he will be unloading Joy, as she will be dependent on the camp crew to support her in whatever style that they want to.  Surprise, Joy, no more Starbucks, forget shopping whenever you want, go clean those bathrooms!

P.S.  Maybe your nice new sister-in-law will teach you how to make your own denim skirts and how to cut up a chicken.

Edited November 20, 2016 by riverblue22

[Spencer Hastings]

I've always wondered if there were mates that Jana and JD wanted to pursue a few years back when things were more strict and JB denied them to keep up appearances, so to speak.  Maybe the mates weren't fundie enough or didn't live up to Boob's standards at the time, so now they're just choosing not to get married because the ones they really wanted got away.  

There's no way the riffraff husbands would have passed Boob's approval back in the glory days, when the twins were in prime marrying age. I'd be willing to bet that a few potential matches got away.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Spencer Hastings

[Miss Fabulous]

It never ceases to amaze me how the kids never think for themselves or become their own person or that these kids are never allowed to question their parents.

i would love at least one of them to elope and say could someone please pass the pickles and by the way, so and so and I got married in Las Vegas over the weekend. Wouldn't that piss Pimp-Bob and Pimpchelle off.

[Barb23]

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?  All the Bates son-in-laws & son have decent jobs & aren't dependent on Gil & Kelly. Same thing with David Waller.  Why does he think he still has to support them once they get married?  Why doesn't he insist his older boys hold down a 40 hrs week real job? Is  it a control thing in his case?

Edited November 20, 2016 by Barb23

[becca3891]

4 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

I've always wondered if there were mates that Jana and JD wanted to pursue a few years back when things were more strict and JB denied them to keep up appearances, so to speak.  Maybe the mates weren't fundie enough or didn't live up to Boob's standards at the time, so now they're just choosing not to get married because the ones they really wanted got away.  

There's no way the riffraff husbands would have passed Boob's approval back in the glory days, when the twins were in prime marrying age. I'd be willing to bet that a few potential matches got away.

I wonder that, too. And there's no doubt that when ratings began to fall, Boob magically had a change of heart and approved a couple of non-Gothard family courtships. I agree that he wouldn't have done that back in 2010, so there very well could have been love interests who got away. Jana has frequently seemed wistful and uncomfortable when discussing potential courtships. The pain of a broken heart is bad enough without having to "keep sweet" and pretend it never happened, over and over, on camera, if that is what happened. I hope not, for her sake.

[Nysha]

1 hour ago, Barb23 said:

Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?

Because Boob is a control freak who refuses to let his daughters move from his headship to their husband's headship, plus, this keeps control of the TLC show under his thumb. As long as Derrick and Ben are working on "Duggar Time", they'll always be available for filming whenever and whatever TLC wants, if they had their own jobs, TLC would have to film around that and they'd be limited to specials instead of a series.

[Jynnan tonnix]

11 hours ago, PoshSprinkles said:

This was another aspect of the episode that annoyed me. They tell the girl she has to change clothes because her skirt was too short, but the guy had his underwear hanging out the entire time and was never told to wear a belt or pull up his pants. 

Well, to be fair, the girl did end up wearing jeans for the remainder of the episode, so I suppose it was more a matter of making do with what they had brought with them even though it might not be totally in compliance with their family dress code. The girl's original choice of outfit might very well have been a mite defrauding for young Austin who had probably never seen cleavage in his life...I doubt anyone else there would have had a belt that would fit the guy, but there was nothing all that defrauding about him in any case.

Oddly enough, as I watched this it occurred to me that I had seen it before, and I don't think I ever saw more than one, possibly two episodes of this show. I remember thinking that those parents didn't seem nearly as strict as the previews made them out to be, outside of expecting everyone to actually pitch in and do their share, nor as overtly religious (though I suppose they probably edited some of that out). But since they actually DO run a business, I'm thinking that Joy will likely find herself part of the staff there and have to deal with having to keep things up to health-code requirements. There is likely more work to do there, depending on how many guests are there at any given time, than she is used to, with less people to spread the chores around. At least the parents seem quite involved with their two kids vs. Jim Bob & Michelle with  their brood.

[Churchhoney]

5 hours ago, Miss Fabulous said:

It never ceases to amaze me how the kids never think for themselves or become their own person or that these kids are never allowed to question their parents.

 

They have been brainwashed using all the techniques successfully used in totalitarian situations. Not because their parents are clever but because those techniques come naturally to people and unfortunately emerge front and center in people with personalities like the Duggar parents. And when people have been successfully brainwashed, they need some very particular traits of personality and character and some particular kinds of good luck as well to escape. Apparently the Duggar kids haven't had those things.

[Defrauder]

Joy Anna & Austin, The Foragers

[lianau]

3 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?  All the Bates son-in-laws & son have decent jobs & aren't dependent on Gil & Kelly. Same thing with David Waller.  Why does he think he still has to support them once they get married?  Why doesn't he insist his older boys hold down a 40 hrs week real job? Is  it a control thing in his case?

Control thing . A real job means leaving the compound and he can't fully control them anymore because they 'd have access to their own money .

[Minivanessa]

4 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?  All the Bates son-in-laws & son have decent jobs & aren't dependent on Gil & Kelly. Same thing with David Waller.  Why does he think he still has to support them once they get married?  Why doesn't he insist his older boys hold down a 40 hrs week real job? Is  it a control thing in his case?

My take on it, discussed around here not too long ago, is that JB's desire is for all his children, grandchildren, and descendants down the line, to live in a big compound and be a tribe. He may still subscribe to some personal version of Botkin's 200 Year Plan, and if so, he must maintain control of the family and keep them close. (He also needs to somehow assure that all of them will continue to hold the same religious beliefs that he does, which in light of human nature is IMO a bizarre expectation but must be like candy to a control freak like JB.) Someone noted that Jill made a comment on the show about the Duggars being a "tribe" which makes sense in this context. 

No wonder JB was so obviously threatened by Jeremy. He couldn't fault him on his theology, which is as fundie nutjob as JB's own, and JB must know that he can't actually publicly say he wants everybody living as closely together as possible in Arkansas. Under his watch. Even JB knows that's too far out for most people, and certainly for the TLC viewers.

To those who think that JB doesn't really want to marry off more of his sons, that's a good point. What the franchise loses as fodder for the TV show, it gains by having all that in-house labor and no extra mouths to feed.

These people are not normal. IMO. Just saying.

Edited to add: The discussion of JB's possible long-term plans for his tribe is over at the JB/Michelle topic, and starts here: 

Edited November 20, 2016 by Jeeves
To avoid rehashing the whole discussion over here, I added the link to the discussion in another topic.

[Defrauder]

Plus where the Duggar boys/men are concerned there's a lot of pressure to be sure to marry a Proverbs whatever woman who will be just like Michelle and have dozens of kids while gaze adoring her headship.  I don't know of a lot of women like that and unless they go full fundie they probably won't find any. Which leads to limiting their options to full fundies  and as such some of those families are probably suspicious of the Duggar fame and the Josh scandals and actually want to avoid that.

[Absolom]

Even full on fundies are not all quiverful so their pool is even smaller or JB will have to loosen some of his beliefs to get them all married eventually.  After Josh, none have contracted ATI/IBLP marriages so Jim Bob may be considered "poison" in the circles that they actually inhabit. 

[BitterApple]

5 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  

Control. The one who signs the checks is the one who calls the shots. My sister's gazillionaire boss did the same thing with his three sons-in-law. None of them work and they slink into the office once a month to kiss the ring and hand their bills to the comptroller. All the houses, cars, nannies, private schools and vacations are paid for by Daddy: and he never lets them forget it. They're more well-heeled and educated than the Duggars, but the dynamics are completely the same.

[satrunrose]

7 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?  All the Bates son-in-laws & son have decent jobs & aren't dependent on Gil & Kelly. Same thing with David Waller.  Why does he think he still has to support them once they get married?  Why doesn't he insist his older boys hold down a 40 hrs week real job? Is  it a control thing in his case?

I think if they hadn't had the t.v. show this is exactly what would have happened. The problem is that the Boob got his fame and fortune by dragging a duckling line of cute obedient children everywhere, plunking them on-stage and crowing about how he (implied impressive manliness) fathered all 19. If he took the more "normal" quiverfull track, like David and Priscilla, where the married daughters are supported by the son-in-laws, instead of 29(?) dependents, including "happily married Godly couples" and cute tots to parade, he'd be left with 15 stunned and wild kidults. There's no way Boob's ego would be okay with that. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by satrunrose

[RazzleberryPie]

If he had allowed Jana or JD to court and leave at the same age Joy is now - about the time the show was booming - he wouldn't have been able to brag that he had 18 kids at home and Sister Mom #1 leaving would have disrupted the entire way the household ran. Michelle was still having babies needed someone to raise her children and also not steal her thunder.

Jana probably thought she'd be more useful at home and JB would find her a husband soon, but he then skipped her to focus on he other girls, year after year. 

JD apparently doesn't want to go anywhere either and doesn't look as sad as Jana when discussing future families and courtships. 

Josh was married off ASAP because he is a predator who they wanted out of the house and also though being able to righteously fulfill desires would rehab him. 

You can search my numbered diatribe as tobhow I think Jessa was shoved into marriage so fast. Summary = she was the pretty, bold, and more useful for a story arc than as a Sister Mom. They wanted ratings and forced her to court. Jill's whirlwind came up, but by then stubborn Jessa wouldn't let her thunder be stolen no matter what, so she married Ben. 

[Sew Sumi]

7 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Well, to be fair, the girl did end up wearing jeans for the remainder of the episode, so I suppose it was more a matter of making do with what they had brought with them even though it might not be totally in compliance with their family dress code. The girl's original choice of outfit might very well have been a mite defrauding for young Austin who had probably never seen cleavage in his life...I doubt anyone else there would have had a belt that would fit the guy, but there was nothing all that defrauding about him in any case.

Oddly enough, as I watched this it occurred to me that I had seen it before, and I don't think I ever saw more than one, possibly two episodes of this show. I remember thinking that those parents didn't seem nearly as strict as the previews made them out to be, outside of expecting everyone to actually pitch in and do their share, nor as overtly religious (though I suppose they probably edited some of that out). But since they actually DO run a business, I'm thinking that Joy will likely find herself part of the staff there and have to deal with having to keep things up to health-code requirements. There is likely more work to do there, depending on how many guests are there at any given time, than she is used to, with less people to spread the chores around. At least the parents seem quite involved with their two kids vs. Jim Bob & Michelle with  their brood.

Well, the place seems to welcome volunteers. Joy worked in the kitchen when her parents and the Smuggars were there on that marriage retreat in early October (I'm pretty sure that Boobchelle even posted a picture from there a fee days after the fac).

As I have said before, based on some trees in the background of the video,  I'm pretty sure that is when the courtship began. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

40 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Well, the place seems to welcome volunteers. Joy worked in the kitchen when her parents and the Smuggars were there on that marriage retreat in early October (I'm pretty sure that Boobchelle even posted a picture from there a fee days after the fac).

As I have said before, based on some trees in the background of the video,  I'm pretty sure that is when the courtship began. 

All that actually puzzles me a bit... Going from the video from when the courtship was announced, it appears that Austin took her to a special spot to ask her, and since we have no video, I'm assuming he took her up there alone. Now, I suppose that was a spot where the two of them might have been along with a bunch of other people, and maybe he was allowed to take her up there unchaperoned if the parents knew he would be asking her to court...though it seems to me that if there was any real attraction between them, that would have been the perfect opportunity to show some physical affection unobserved. It just seems off, given what we know about these families, that they would allow these two so much apparent freedom with each other.

I keep thinking of the one scene in Fiddler on the Roof, where Tevye and Golde are discussing Tzeitel and Motel's relationship (bear with me if I don't get it quite right....I haven't seen it in at least 15 years)

"..they play..."

 "They play? What do they play?"

 "Who knows...they're children"

 "From such children come other children"

[Sew Sumi]

I imagine Boobchelle and Anna will be seen in the TLC rendition of the courtship proposal (which I can guarantee you WAS filmed). That video is essentially the aftermath, filmed same-day. As for timing and chaperones, maybe Anna? Or if it happened during couple activity time, maybe the Forsyth sister? Michael Bates had a Keilen sister as a chaperone/accountability partner with her on the scavenger hunt when Brandon proposed. The parents were just there at the end. 

Looking at the clothes they are wearing in the video, it's pretty clear that they were both working at the camp in some capacity. Joy would have dressed up a *little*more if she knew a courtship proposal was coming at that time. Of course, she had to suspect SOMETHING was up when cameras (we'll find out whose soon enough, but TLC's been to Fort Rock several times before) followed them to the "special rock." 

[lilwhitelion]

In the tease after the wedding episode, you see Austin and Joy approaching the summit of the hill and one of the brothers was trailing behind - James maybe?

[Lady Edith]

On 9/20/2016 at 1:01 PM, lianau said:

How can Joy be the new Jana if the the old Jana is still jana'ing around 

And from the looks of it, Jana will be Jana'ing around for many years to come.  Joy got her ticket out, though I feel she is jumping from frying pan into fire.  She has now officially excluded herself from any responsibilities around the compound but is unknowingly prepping for a life working for her inlaws...50 years hard labor at the family business/bible camp.  Jana at least knows the lot in life she chose for herself.  In 20 years it will be her and JD taking care of Michelle and Jim Bob as they start the next "season" of their lives.  The rest will have run off to fulfill JB's vision of 200 grandkids.  But maybe then she can have some peace.  

I can see Jana as a preschool/kindergarten teacher.  She could teach the kids and send them home to their parents.  

She DOES have an eye for design, even if it needs honed a bit.  With some real training she could be good.  But these are all unattainable dreams for her while she is stuck on the compound.

[cereality]

11 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Great post Cereality.  I do have a question.  Why does Boob think he has to come up with jobs & provide for Ben & probably now Derick?  Shouldn't he have said during the courting process that said son-in-law is expected to provide for his bride & kids like a somewhat normal couple?  All the Bates son-in-laws & son have decent jobs & aren't dependent on Gil & Kelly. Same thing with David Waller.  Why does he think he still has to support them once they get married?  Why doesn't he insist his older boys hold down a 40 hrs week real job? Is  it a control thing in his case?

I think the stuff people said about control and making a TV show is right, BUT I think it also has to do with the loser sons in law he is now attracting. Given the family's fall from grace due to all the Josh stuff, they are getting bottom of the barrel candidates for their daughters (and none for their sons). But it's still important for the daughters to marry and have a headship. So while JB is asking the questions re how he'll provide for his wife -- in person and on the 50 pg application -- in reality he can't be all that choosy. He is attracting candidates like Bin and Jer who have no careers and just have vague notions of ministry and are famewhores hoping that being associated with a Duggar launches some kind of revenue generating ministry or he's attracting people like Derick who had a career but then come on board and suddenly realize that a clingy wife who wants them home 24-7 whose daddy can provide a house and a tv show paycheck is an easier life than 40 hrs/wk with a clingy wife who complains that you work too much. So JB feels he MUST take these candidates bc that's all the choice he's got and bc he doesn't want to see his daughters and grandkids starve, he must create a job for them. Right now it's the TV show; when that burns out, I bet he' be doling out revenue from the cell phone towers and warehouses bc he still won't to see his daughters starve.

It's different with the Bates. They haven't been attracted sons in law who are losers or famewhores. They have attracted "traditional" candidates who realize they better be financially able to support a wife and up to a dozen children bc their inlaws (or their parents) aren't going to be in any position to help. Thus far the sons in law have included a minister with an actual paid job with ATI; a finance manager at a metals shop; a guy who owns an HVAC company with his brothers who works from sun up until well past sun down; and a courtship partner who is in college and presumably looking to find himself an occupation that'll support a wife.

Joy and her husband will be the first ones who will be off and stay off JB's payroll (I have a feeling Jer/Jing will bounce back after 1-2 yrs in Laredo) bc his parents have an established business and he is one of 2 kids so he HAS to run that business.

[GeeGolly]

TLC might plant a small crew in TX to film J & J and J & A, which, in a sense, is still an extension of JB and his money.