S05.E13: Storm-y Weather

[Helena Dax]

Ugh., I hated the ending. I knew we weren't going to get a happy ending, of course, but I wasn't expecting this either. I feel a bit disappointed.  The riot was a mess in every way, writing included, and I'm not sure what was the message here. Usually, I think they manage to get the dramedy tone well, but this time, it didn't work. I felt the writers were cheating somehow, trying to make fun of things that weren't funny themselves. Like the forced fingering, for example. And then, what? The show wants to be too realistic and serious to give these women a small victory at least?

I liked that final shot, though, with Piper, Taystee and the others staying together. And the fact that Linda is still being treated as a prisoner. It can't last, but she totally deserves it. And bye, Piscatella!

The season had excellent scenes, but as a whole it's my least favourite. 

[uoflfan]

3 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I liked that final shot, though, with Piper, Taystee and the others staying together. And the fact that Linda is still being treated as a prisoner

I liked that Linda was still being treated as a prisoner.  Letting her sorority sister freeze to death in the snow, then lying to the cops is probably a bigger crime than some of the women who are in that prison committed.  It's certainly worse that possession of narcotics or petty theft.  I laughed that Linda actually seemed to be enjoying prison life and Big Boo for a while.  Has the nun left the show or might she be returning next season?  I really liked the nun and felt bad that Sophia went back to Solitary for her and she was gone.

[SeanC]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:08 PM, pootlus said:

It looked like they were literally - as well as figuratively - shipping some characters off to parts unknown.  The cast has got so big that I lose track - I wonder if next season will see a reduced core cast.  TBH I'd be happy if they kept to the ones in the basement plus Maria, Lorna and a couple of others.

The logic of "they won't let anybody return to the prison" would apply to the bunker crew too, though.

Really, I'm quite interested to see what the status quo of the show is in Season 6, based on how they ended things here.

4 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

If Caputo doesn't tell them about Linda, I wonder how long she'll be stuck in a prison, especially since the records are burnt. The count is going to be one short if they don't find Tiffany and the older lady who walked through the fence. If they find one of them, it'll be a while before they even realize the other is missing until Linda is discovered to not belong there.

I wouldn't think very long; her situation could be sorted out with one phone call to somebody who knows who she is.

[chitowngirl]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The logic of "they won't let anybody return to the prison" would apply to the bunker crew too, though.

Really, I'm quite interested to see what the status quo of the show is in Season 6, based on how they ended things here.

I wouldn't think very long; her situation could be sorted out with one phone call to somebody who knows who she is.

Since this season took place over just 3 days, that could take all of season 6! ?

[plurie]

I'm pretty sure they'll check Linda's fingerprints and find out she's not a prisoner.

 

The announcer at the bus station mispronounced "Albany." It's ALLbany not ALbany.

[Ziz]

They mentioned that Sister Ingalls was released on compassionate release. 

[tivofanatic]

I expected Coates to reach for the gun while cuddling.  Remember, Tiffany will not be disrespected.  I'm more scared for him than her.

Poor Daya.  She'll probably be charged with murder now that they discovered the body. 

Realistically, Suzanne's ex probably would have been found dead in bed. I was shocked when she moved.

Overall, I loved this season.  Used prison panties for sale will always be the low point for me.  

In a way, this reminds me of when high school shows do a graduation episode.  Have they all graduated to max now?  

[ExplainItAgain]

On 6/10/2017 at 6:52 PM, Armchair Critic said:

They said they were 10 prisoners short but it was actually 11 because they counted Linda. I wonder if the Asian woman will get away, I love how she notices everything that goes on but she just blends into the background. How long can Pennsatucky play house with her boyfriend the guard? If she is in the guard's house it's just a matter of time before more of them come back.

 

On 6/12/2017 at 11:42 AM, Absurda said:

Agree with the poster up thread who noted the count should have been 11 missing. There were the 10 in the pool and the 2 that escaped (twelve missing) then Linda made up 1. I don’t know why, but that really bugged me.

I paused while watching because I was literally counting them off on my fingers! I was like 10??...wait, there's 12 people still unaccounted for (Chang, Tucky, Red, Frieda, Piper, Alex, Blanca, Nicky, Black Cindy, Taystee, Suzanne and Gloria). Then I remembered Linda...so that makes 11. It's been bugging me all day. Did they find Chang? I didn't see her out on the lawn.

Damn, how many times this season did Dwight break her nose?!

I've hated the meth heads all season but it was just a tiny bit endearing that they thought they were helping by burning the files.

I binged this whole series over the last month or so. Overall, I think I enjoyed this season more than 3 or 4, but not as much as 1 and 2.

[Armchair Critic]

On 6/13/2017 at 7:23 AM, nosleepforme said:

Do we actually know whether his prison lover survived the beat-down?

A scene that got cut was that after his lover was beaten Piscatella reached down and touched him and the "tattoo" on his wrist smeared. So sounds like his prison lover was conning him. 
 

[possibilities]

On 6/11/2017 at 9:10 PM, Sentient Meat said:

The barista was able to work along side the Latinas and they only lashed out at each other because they ran out of coffee and all the old wounds reopened as soon as one of them made a rude comment.

I think the meth heads stole their coffee (we saw them take jugs of it away when no one was looking), so it wasn't only that they ran out of coffee, it's that each suspected the other of stealing the missing supply. Your main point stands, regardless, but I think this is a significant plot point because many times this season, the chaotic obnoxiousness of Angie and Leanne was the trigger that set off problems that the two of them weren't even aware of. It's one of the things I liked about the writing; they kept showing how misunderstandings, distrust, fear, cynicism, suspicion, and third party actions had ripple effects and unintended consequences for people who were not directly responsible for setting them off. I thought that was one of the more interesting statements the show was making, and I liked that it was woven throughout, somewhat subtly and without the usual anvils.

[August79]

A young inexperienced officer with lack of proper training kills Poussey brings about the start of this season

A young inexperienced officer with lack of proper training kills Piscatella to end the season.   

 

A scene that was a small moment but is still with me is when Ouija's son (?) is watching Maritza and Flaca’s video and sees his Mom threatening the officers.   The look on his face was heart breaking

[ExplainItAgain]

@August79 - even worse because Oujia had just told Maria to be a role model and someone her kid could look up to...and then there's Oujia in the background of the video terrifying the hostages...

[August79]

@ExplainItAgain right.   There's all these other families wanting to know their loved one is okay.  He witnessed his mother being part of the problem 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2017-6-12 at 0:23 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm just curious about what next season is going to look like. Like are we actually going to lose some of the cast, because that's what it looked like. I mean if so, we're more than likely going to keep all the people in the basement  on the show.  But that group was missing Boo and Lorna and Pennstucky. And Boo and Lorna are big characters on the show.

I wonder what it will be like too. When i first heard about the whole season taking place over a few days i figured it would be so that they could extend how long Piper is part of the show. But now it seems like if anyone goes back to Litchfield it will be months before that place is ready to house prisoners again. And I really wonder how many of the current cast makes it back. And i really can't see Caputo being allowed back inside.

On 2017-6-12 at 11:42 AM, Absurda said:

 

I really hope the group in the pool doesn’t get hurt when the SWAT team gets there. Was I the only one thinking Frieda should probably put down Piscatella’s utility belt?

That's what i was thinking. If you want to be captured peacefully probably a good  idea to put down the gun. That said i loved how the second Piscatella was cut free by Red, Freida had the gun pointed at him ready to shoot.

[Bubbles1967]

I didn't really like this season. Too chaotic and all over the place.

i know this is strange to say but it was kind of endearing to see all the groups come together. They formed a united front.

Although I understood her reasoning, Tasty shouldn't have taken it upon herself to be the sole decision maker. Yes what happened to Poussey was horrible. But what they said was reasonable.  They had to investigate.   Otherwise all their other demands would have been met.   Truth be told, justice for Poussey meant more to her than to anyone else.

Brook annoyed me . Nuff said

[ExplainItAgain]

Regarding next season, I think it's obvious the Bunker 10 will be the main focus. I think Tucky and Sophia will still be around. Unsure about Maria, Janae, Allison, Maritza and Flaca.

If they are going to retool the cast and drop people, I could see them dropping: Lorna (she's married, pregnant, Vinnie came back for her, sort of a nice wrap up), Big Boo (not much of a continuing storyline with her), Soso (got to create the memorial for some closure on Poussey's death), Healy (MIA all season), Daya & Aleida, most of the new guards, and maybe some of Red's old gang (Yoga, Anita, Norma, Gina, etc).

I actually like most of those characters, I personally would lose the meth heads, the Nazis, Oujia and her gang.

What do you all think? Are they going for a cast retool? For the riot, it makes sense there were a lot of characters and a lot of chaos, but how will they focus season 6? It will be interesting to hear what direction they are taking for season 6 (6 months later...back at Litchfield, or following people around different prisons, or moving to max? or...?)

[Thrifty]

On 6/11/2017 at 11:00 AM, Fairlily26 said:

I agree with everything you've said, and I do think somehow Linda will get released because even though she's being counted now, most likely when they get to the new prison her info will get looked up and she'll be released. The annoying ass meth heads burning everyone's file was stupid because duh, computers, finger prints, and ssn#s.

Yeah it was stupid, but they're stupid.   So it seemed like a good idea to them.

 

On 6/11/2017 at 8:47 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Agreed. Pennsatucky became so empowered last season when she realized that Coates wasn't worth it and she got to say her peace. And then this season, they...double down on the romance? I'm not sure what they're trying to accomplish here. I hope we're supposed to find it creepy and we're not supposed to root for it at all. And I truly hope nobody is rooting for the romance either, because damn, I got creeped out by the domestic vibe in their last scene, although it also ended in a questionable form. Does Coates really want a future with her? Are things really going to work out, or will they both realize sooner rather than later that domestic bliss and a normal relationship isn't for them? Plus, Caputo will realize that Pennsatucky wasn't accounted for, right? They'll still have to take their names in their new prisons and then cross check them with the prisoners from Litchfield. Even with Linda counted as an inmate right now, I can't imagine she'd actually stay in prison, right? But her questioning that at the end makes it seem like they'll do exactly that.

I think this is what the writers are going for.  That relationship is just so weird and wrong.  I like it.  It's something new and original and interesting.

[rho]

5 hours ago, Thrifty said:

Quote

I agree with everything you've said, and I do think somehow Linda will get released because even though she's being counted now, most likely when they get to the new prison her info will get looked up and she'll be released. The annoying ass meth heads burning everyone's file was stupid because duh, computers, finger prints, and ssn#s.

Yeah it was stupid, but they're stupid.   So it seemed like a good idea to them.

But they did establish back in S3 that it's not hard to fool the system. They let Angie out by mistake and if not for the real Sara Rice chiming in, they probably wouldn't have noticed. 

I'm thinking next season will either throw everyone in max or a lot of them will be arbitrarily let off early because the prison system can't recover from 400 displaced prisoners. Kind of like when a kid throws a tantrum and the parents give them a treat because they don't want to deal with it. 

So yeah, the meth heads are idiots but they could benefit from a convoluted system. Or at least everyone else will, and their sentence will get extended for arson. For my sake I'm hoping we never see them again, imprisoned or otherwise.

[possibilities]

How would TPTB determine who was responsible for which activities during the takeover? Most of what went on was either not witnesssed at all (the fire), or they'd have to interview all the inmates individually and then cross-check their stories, and then try to make it all add up, and I just don't see them taking the time or having the resources or giving that much of a damn about figuring it out, especially with people being dispersed to different facilities while Litchfield is either closed or renovated and re-staffed.

The guards will testify about some things, but many of the things we saw, they did not, including some of the things they'll want to punish (like the fire).

Of the Bunker 10, Gloria would be in big trouble for locking the guards in the poo, even if she did it as part of a plan to free them-- they might not realize or believe that was what she was doing. The guy from MCC who promised to release her probably doesn't know who she is or care, and would believe it was Maria. Caputo could possibly back up her story, but he's also in trouble for "letting this situation happen" and might not have leverage to save her even if he wanted to.

The video of Piscatella torturing the others will help them gain credibility that they were afraid and hiding in the bunker, but the existence of a fully stocked bunker itself is going to get them into trouble.

And Judy might testify against Yoga and the others for their role in hauling Judy to the roof, etc. I don't think Yoga was in the Bunker at the end, but it's still possible that her involvement in the Judy hostage situation will come out.

I don't know what I think the show will do. I suppose it depends on whether they decide to pick up right where they left us, or if they plan to gloss over all of that and just pick up somewhere after the dust settles.

I imagine they will take into account the feedback they get on this season, too.

I didn't mind that there wasn't a lot of "forward motion" and we got to spend time with the characters and see how each of them coped with the same situation. I agree the meth heads were annoying and unpleasant to watch, but I also found them realistic; I have known plenty of people who had no common sense or self-awareness and sowed chaos and destruction and were totally annoying and considered themselves freespirited delights. It's extremely draining, and I hope we aren't asked to keep watching that in future, but the way they managed to fuck things up for so many people along the way I thought was worth showing. It's not always about intent or even intelligence. Sometimes the careless and uncalculated can be just as bad. The meth heads were both.

I wasn't bored by the show overall. I don't think they meant to be saying everything the prisoners did was good, or to glorify the bad stuff. I think it was meant to be more of a look at the kinds of things that might happen, period. Not everything is about rooting for a team or endorsing or condeming or taking a side. Sometimes things are just an exploration of what is, and it's up to viewers to stew in that and come to our own conclusions. The situation is complex, and the show not trying to make it simple is, I think, one of the best things about it.

I also don't care that the show isn't a comedy. A comedy about prison strikes me as a very exploitative and wrong-headed concept to begin with. There can be amusing moments, but overall it's more appropriate for the setting that the show be a drama.

Edited June 20, 2017 by possibilities

[Thrifty]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I also don't care that the show isn't a comedy. A comedy about prison strikes me as a very exploitative and wrong-headed concept to begin with. There can be amusing moments, but overall it's more appropriate for the setting that the show be a drama.

That reminds me; I really need to go find some episodes of Hogan's Heroes.  I have been morbidly curious about how someone does a sitcom about prisoners of war in a Nazi camp.  I never got around to checking it out though.

[Mattipoo]

I enjoyed this season and thought the last episode was pretty moving especially when we see the inmates being separated outside the prison. Best performances this season are from Taystee, Gloria and Maria. I also loved the flashbacks to Red's past in Russia and Freida's childhood as a Girl Scout, some of the others not so much. Looking forward to next season and hoping most of my favorite characters will be back.

[Chyna]

On 6/18/2017 at 0:36 AM, Armchair Critic said:

A scene that got cut was that after his lover was beaten Piscatella reached down and touched him and the "tattoo" on his wrist smeared. So sounds like his prison lover was conning him. 

Cut scenes what? Where did you find this?

On 6/13/2017 at 7:53 PM, uoflfan said:

I liked that Linda was still being treated a prisoner

Me too. She's such an opportunist -- I loved seeing Boo and the others use a convenient opportunity (in that funny "I am Spartacus" moment outside) to punish her in their own little way.

[Armchair Critic]

41 minutes ago, Chyna said:

Cut scenes what? Where did you find this?

Vulture article mentions Piscatella's deleted scene

Edited June 21, 2017 by Armchair Critic

[Clanstarling]

On 6/10/2017 at 10:07 PM, Sentient Meat said:

The acting was amazing, but the storyline was all over the place.  For every time I was moved, there was another scene that took me completely out of the plot.

That's been my reaction as well. There have been some powerful moments, but interspersed with a lot of nonsense that didn't particularly add to the narrative. Perhaps some of them were just to give some of the extended tertiary cast members a line or two.

On 6/11/2017 at 8:00 AM, Fairlily26 said:

I agree with everything you've said, and I do think somehow Linda will get released because even though she's being counted now, most likely when they get to the new prison her info will get looked up and she'll be released. The annoying ass meth heads burning everyone's file was stupid because duh, computers, finger prints, and ssn#s.

Joe hates her, but I would still think he'd, at some point, say, "Hey, Linda from MCC is in with those women." 

On 6/11/2017 at 4:59 PM, leighroda said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I would rather see Angie and Leanne gone, than Flaca and Maritza... I think both were kinda pointless filler this season... 

I'd have to agree with you on that one. Flaca and Maritza are at least amusing - and Martiza had some good will left over from the horrible Humps mouse thing last season. But Angie and Leanne were never anything but annoying, imo.

On 6/13/2017 at 4:23 AM, nosleepforme said:

I liked that Red regained her humanity and let Piscatella go. That was a really great moment. I thought Piscatella was a great repulsive villain for both seasons, but he was a little bit too one-dimensional and his little speech to Taystee in the end did very little of making a person out of him.

This was a stand-out season for Danielle Brooks and Selenis Leyva. If I had any cloud, I'd give them some major Awards recognition for this season.  I know, Taystee was a breakout character in the first two seasons, but I was honestly never that impressed by her. However, this season she gave probably the finest performance on the entire show.

I agree about Brooks and Leyva, but I also include Lea DeLaria as a stand out. Big Boo touched me more this season than ever before. I'd hate to see her go, and would like her to have a significant storyline.

The writing was really uneven, I thought, at least in this episode. Piscatella was a case in point - they hit some beats they wanted, but failed to connect anything together to make him particularly human. His last minute conversion made little sense given his last tirade with Red. 

While Angie's wondering if they might be the bad guys seemed fairly well written, a similar statement about "mixed morality" (or something like that) from...was it Ouija?...seemed too on the nose and writerly, rather than something she would say.

I also thought it strange that these guards, who did not know these women, specifically split Flaca and Maritza - and so far as I could tell, didn't do that with anyone else. Some weren't with their people, but that was mostly because they were still hiding out, if I remember correctly. (Lorna looking for Nikki, Abdullah and Janae looking for Taystee, Cindy and Suzanne).

[Tesla]

I just find it hard to believe that the cops and governor's people didn't assume the missing prisoners escaped out of THE GIANT HOLE IN THE FENCE, especially since the guards did it too!  Strange to me that they checked and rechecked inside the prison instead of what would be the obvious conclusion.  

[Mrs OldManBalls]

On 2017-06-12 at 11:42 AM, Absurda said:

Was I the only one thinking Frieda should probably put down Piscatella’s utility belt?

Come sit by me. I'm worried about her too. 

[poppy-]

On 6/20/2017 at 8:13 AM, Thrifty said:

That reminds me; I really need to go find some episodes of Hogan's Heroes.  I have been morbidly curious about how someone does a sitcom about prisoners of war in a Nazi camp.  I never got around to checking it out though.

I'll save you the trouble.  The prison is run by career German Army officers, not Nazis. The German Army officers are foolish bumblers. 'Dukes of Hazard police force' level of stupid.  There is one Nazi character, a member of the Gestapo. He is shown to be cunning and evil.  He exist to be the only one smart enough to see through the American's secret codes and tricks and escape plans.   But the Germans don't like him, he is a political rival. Plus creepy. So the Germans don't believe him  and actively work against him.    And round and round they go.

[Thrifty]

7 minutes ago, poppy- said:

I'll save you the trouble.  The prison is run by career German Army officers, not Nazis. The German Army officers are foolish bumblers. 'Dukes of Hazard police force' level of stupid.  There is one Nazi character, a member of the Gestapo. He is shown to be cunning and evil.  He exist to be the only one smart enough to see through the American's secret codes and tricks and escape plans.   But the Germans don't like him, he is a political rival. Plus creepy. So the Germans don't believe him  and actively work against him.    And round and round they go.

That's right.  I keep forgetting that German army and Nazi were different groups, although there was overlap.  I heard a story once from a Holocaust survivor who said that, while in Auchwitz, he befriended a German army officer who did what he could do help the prisoners.

[April Bloodgate]

I'm surprised Joe didn't go look at the inmates outside and try to get a sense of who was missing. If he realized that it was Chapman, Red, Taystee, etc. he might have had some insight on what was going on/that they weren't likely to be planning a physical attack. He would have noticed that one of the missing people is Suzanne, and her history/mental status would be good to know going into the situation. Hell, I kind of thought he might offer to go back in himself before he allowed them to go in with bullets/allow for casualties.

[PsychoDrone]

Not sure why the prisoners were fighting once the riot cops came in.  Sure fire way to be "mistakenly" killed.  They're prisoners and know the drill.  Alarms went off and they immediately laid down on the floor.  You w would think seeing riot cops storming the prison would have them do the same thing in order to reduce/eliminate injury.  For the bunker 10, what good is dignity if you're dead?  They should have been face down, assuming a non-threatening position so the cops wouldn't attack them.  Standing there in solidarity would be almost a guaranteed beatdown and lead to all kinds of "accidents".  No love for Pescatella, but him walking out like the cops knew he was one of them was monumentally stupid too.

This season had some interesting points, since I do want to see how some of them wound up in prison.  But mostly, it was a chore to get through.  Having less episodes for this a single event would have made better storytelling.  Stretching it out over 13 episodes introduced so much filler.

[WatchrTina]

On 6/13/2017 at 6:23 AM, nosleepforme said:

In an interview Jenji Kohan said she is still making up her mind on whether the show will end with season seven or not

But we just saw season FIVE.  They're going to drag this out for two more seasons?  With all the characters being herded on to separate buses I just assumed THIS was the end for the show.  Oh well, it could make for some interesting opportunties next season.  We just had one season that took place over 3 days.  I'll be the next season will be a big jump forward in time where -- despite what that one guard said -- we find a bunch of the cast returning to a re-opened Litchfield.  And I'm guessing the flashbacks in THAT season may cover what happened to the characters before they were returned to Litchfield.

One moment of realism for me was when the Muslim prisoner pulled down her head-scarf as soon as the guards broke in.  She knew better than to give them one more reason to target her.

Edited June 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[ExplainItAgain]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'll be the next season will be a big jump forward in time where -- despite what that one guard said -- we find a bunch of the cast returning to a re-opened Litchfield.  And I'm guessing the flashbacks in THAT season may cover what happened to the characters before they were returned to Litchfield.

This is a great idea and I would love to see that.

[possibilities]

I'm not bored with the show, so if they it keep going a few more seasons, I'd still watch.

[Dobian]

This whole season was very disjointed, with a lot of half-baked plots, a confusing message. and plot holes all over the place.  What happened to Burset at the end, did I miss something?  She seemed to just disappear.  Bayley was heading back to Litchfield on a bus an episode ago.  I figured in the finale he was going to show up and talk to the media or something, maybe create a moment of lucidity about what had been going on at Litchfield.  We had the whole theme about this riot happening because of the abuse of these women by the private guards, so it ends with a siege, and more abuse by state troopers?  It just seemed really heavy-handed.  The abuse point had been made, I was looking for a finale to address that in a more reflective way.  Instead they just piled on more gratuitous abuse and a "darkest hour" cliffhanger that was unnecessary.  I'm sure they'll come up with a quick resolve next season.  The governor, embarrassed by these events compounded by all the footage getting leaked on social media (and probably in an election year), will want to make right by it.  But this story deserved better than a bunch of plot-servicing, and should have been concluded in this episode.

[April Bloodgate]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

Bayley was heading back to Litchfield on a bus an episode ago.

It was unclear to me whether he actually went or not. He seemed to be wavering, and we didn't see him actually board a bus, so...

[Desperately Random]

30 minutes ago, April Bloodgate said:

It was unclear to me whether he actually went or not. He seemed to be wavering, and we didn't see him actually board a bus, so...

That's the way I remember it too. He was trying to decide what to do.  It looked to me like he decided not to get on the bus back to Litchfield but it was left ambiguous. I wonder if we'll find out next season or that is the last we see of Bayley.

[knaankos]

On 6/13/2017 at 3:03 PM, chitowngirl said:

Bailey, Poussey's dad is not going to give you any sort of forgiveness 4 days after his daughter's death. There probably hasn't even been a funeral yet.

 

Honestly I think the writers forgot about the time lapse for this scene. It felt more like months later, maybe even a year. Poussey's dad already appeared to be in the "trying to go on with life" phase. Like it took him a while to register who Bailey was. Oversight I think, hard to keep track of everything 

[iMonrey]

Overall I felt it was a pretty strong season that mostly worked. Mostly - not all of it - it seems like they had to employ a bit of filler to stretch this story out over thirteen episodes. The talent show, in particular, sort of crossed a line into parody. But I think it worked better than the panty selling storyline, at any rate. It probably would have worked better if she had

I do agree with those who are sort of over Suzanne at this point. I finally reached that point when she was in the bathroom washing off her face. There was entirely too much time spent on her, by herself, just babbling gibberish. We get it - the show thinks the world of the actress and she won an Emmy. But unless she's interacting with other characters and moving the story somewhere, she's just "on" for the sake of entertainment, and it's tiresome.

Somewhere upthread somebody pointed out that the show has trouble writing around the actors' availability and I agree that does seem to be the case. I don't mind Leann and Angie in small doses - it was very meta of them to consider themselves the "Flounder and Sebastian sidekick characters" - but there was definitely and over-reliance on them this season. Same goes for Flaca and Maritza. If those characters became more prominent simply because some of the other actors weren't available, the show's got a problem.

Has anyone heard if the show has been renewed for certain?

[ExplainItAgain]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Has anyone heard if the show has been renewed for certain?

It's been renewed for 2 more seasons - through season 7.

[Guest]

On 6/25/2017 at 7:33 PM, Desperately Random said:

That's the way I remember it too. He was trying to decide what to do.  It looked to me like he decided not to get on the bus back to Litchfield but it was left ambiguous. I wonder if we'll find out next season or that is the last we see of Bayley.

He left the platform and went back up the escalator to leave the station is how I took it.  So he didn't go back to Litchfield.  

On 6/25/2017 at 4:33 PM, Dobian said:

This whole season was very disjointed, with a lot of half-baked plots, a confusing message. and plot holes all over the place.  What happened to Burset at the end, did I miss something?  She seemed to just disappear.  

Bursett left the prison early on and surrendered to guards.  I think it was said or implied they took her to max?

I'm not a fan of this season.  Too much violence, too little funny.  Though it said some excellent moments, too.

As warden, Caputo should've insisted on leading those riot fools into the cellar so he could help avoid violence, not walk away from it.   

I can't imagine anyone in the cellar will die because killing off lead characters is not something wise to keep doing, in my opinion. 

So over the Poussey grief and Suzanne's crazy.   It probably doesn't help that I watched Wiley in The Handmaid's Tale.  I feel like with the gravity given her death you'd think she died for real, like Cory Monteith in mid-Glee.  It was a writing choice.  Get over it.  

I'm kind of baffled at the wide reaction of disgust to the Doggett and Coates story.  In the Big Little Lies forum, you couldn't even voice displeasure at Nicole Kidman's character letting her husband beat her daily without being accused of being totally tone deaf to the plight of the battered women.  Why is Doggett any different and deserving of less sympathy?  Because she's not 5'11", married, rich and gorgeous?   Why is it disgusting for writers to present a woman settling for an abuser on this show, but totally lauded on that one?   

Oh, and, it annoys me that Netflix used Laverne Cox's image as the 'cover' for this season.  How much time was she on screen, a minute or two?  

Edited June 27, 2017 by Guest

[gunderda]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:06 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah I remembered that he killed an inmate and I realized the guy who hurt his prison lover was the one who killed but what I meant was.. were we supposed to take something from that? I mean he didn't get any sympathy from me from that flashback. 

I think we were suppose to learn why he became who he now was.  He started out kind and light hearted.  After the incident he become uncaring and cruel.  He saw inmates as something unhuman that didn't deserve respect. 

On 6/13/2017 at 2:44 AM, mattie0808 said:

-- Amazing that the SWAT team (or whatever) got EVERYONE OUT WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE but Piscatella. It's weird, it's like, even in a crazy, violent, dangerous situation, the folks with the guns don't, you know, have to...accidentally...kill anyone. They even got Team Latte out alive when they were really trying to take dudes out. It was refreshing, lol.

What was the deal with the young swat member that was so anxious to use deadly force!?!?!

On 6/25/2017 at 9:33 PM, Desperately Random said:

That's the way I remember it too. He was trying to decide what to do.  It looked to me like he decided not to get on the bus back to Litchfield but it was left ambiguous. I wonder if we'll find out next season or that is the last we see of Bayley.

He didn't get on the bus.  He stood at the door and then he went up the stairs - maybe to exchange his ticket? 

[Desperately Random]

16 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

He left the platform and went back up the escalator to leave the station is how I took it.  So he didn't go back to Litchfield.  

 

1 hour ago, gunderda said:

He didn't get on the bus.  He stood at the door and then he went up the stairs - maybe to exchange his ticket? 

It did look like he changed his mind and was not going back to Litchfield which was what I thought when watching the episode. However, we see him leaving the bus station but he hasn't actually left it yet. And they don't show him getting on a bus to go somewhere else. They could still have him change his mind again and turn around to catch the bus to Litchfield after all.  We really won't know what he decided to do until next season.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Desperately Random

[Guest]

He walked up to the Litchfield bus gate then turned and walked away and got on an escalator marked as going to 'street level'.  Then that was it.  I don't know why they would bother showing that if the story is going to be that he turned around.   

I figured that was closure to the Bayley story.  Unless he's prosecuted, which he probably won't be since it was an accident, he's going to go live his life.  I figured that was the message from the woman on the bus taking her baby back.  Bayley realized he can't go through life self-identifying as a killer, at least not expecting others to understand and absolve him somehow.   There was no absolution in the suicide attempt, at Poussey's dad's house, on the bus and there wouldn't be at Litchfield.  

Edited June 27, 2017 by Guest
not elevator

[Diane12251]

Wow, this was a very intense season - and I thought most of the acting was very good.  Pescatella's back story was very insightful about his character.  Although the scene when he was torturing Red was hard to watch, it was very good.  Knowing what Piscatella had done to her, it was amazing to see her let him go - and how he got gunned down in the hall was great.  He definitely needed to go - what a horrible man!!  Since I watched the last two episodes back-to-back, I don't remember the division.  But I think it was in E13 that Bailey went to Poussey's father's house - that whole scene was heart-breaking.  Bailey was just a product of the system, and he never should have been a prison guard - too kind-hearted.  I thought Tastee got carried away with "wanting everything," and should have made the concession to get everything else but justice for Poussey - but then, once the authorities found out that Humps was dead, the whole thing would probably have been scraped anyway so it all was probably futile from the beginning.  I actually liked Figueroa this season - and the interactions between her and Caputo were great.  I loved that Suzanne's mother and Piper's mother were both there at the prison.  In some other threads, people have said they don't like Crazy Eyes anymore, but I think Uzo does an amazing acting job.  To me, Suzanne's character is very sad and compelling.

About the group that remained in the pool - it makes sense to me that they would stay there until the end because at the point where they realized what was happening in the main prison, it was too late for them to go out peacefully.  Standing there, arm-in-arm, was their best bet for staying uninjured and alive.  And since Pescatella had just left that area and gotten shot in the hallway, it makes sense that they would think he was forcibly holding them there.

To me, the very end where they are putting everyone on different buses doesn't mean that they are writing out a bunch of people - but it does mean a re-boot for next season.  As some have said, the cast has gotten very bloated so a cleansing is probably best.  But overall, I thought the whole season was very good.

[jade.black]

I was also thrown off by the comment that only 10 prisoners were missing. I'm glad you guys have pointed out that Linda was there making up for one, but then it should still be 11.

This season may have taken awhile, but this show always delivers on the finale episodes. I bawled my freaking eyes out (AGAIN) through most of this- Flaritza seeing their fan club outside, Leanne seeing her mother, the bunker group holding hands in solidarity, Nicky leaving Lorna, Taystee realizing how badly she messed up, Maria seeing her baby, even the stupid Nazis and latinas banding together to attack the guards. But especially them carrying Soso out of her book memorial and her sticking to her pacifist protests- I know she's not a popular character, but she's really resonated with me the past three seasons and kind of breaks my heart. 

I also hope they get rid of some of the filler characters. I definitely would like to lose the meth heads, Ouija and her friends (especially the bad teeth girl who kidnapped my poor Luschek), and most of the white power/nazi group- except the barista. She is intriguing for some reason, maybe because she actually seems like she has a brain. We can also drop rapist Coates stat. But please can we keep the stripper guard? Mmm.

I love that Caputo has real genuine concern for the inmates. I also love watching him with Fig. I'd like to see more of Boo and Linda too!

My favorite line this episode (and possibly the entire season) was when Doggett was watching the meth heads get taken outside on TV and laughed, "Leanne, dumb bitch. She's such a dumb bitch." Her delivery was amazing.

I have been over Suzanne since she basically killed Poussey. There's no reason that character shouldn't be in psych. And while Uzo is good, I don't see how she's better than some of the other talent in the cast. I find Yael Stone and Danielle Brooks more impressive, as two examples.

My main concern that we'd lose Nicky in the finale here, so I'm glad to see the cliffhanger knowing they won't let any main characters die offscreen. I have such a crush on Natasha Lyonne.

[Slovenly Muse]

On 2017-06-27 at 11:05 AM, gunderda said:

On 2017-06-11 at 8:06 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah I remembered that he killed an inmate and I realized the guy who hurt his prison lover was the one who killed but what I meant was.. were we supposed to take something from that? I mean he didn't get any sympathy from me from that flashback. 

I think we were suppose to learn why he became who he now was.  He started out kind and light hearted.  After the incident he become uncaring and cruel.  He saw inmates as something unhuman that didn't deserve respect. 

I wonder if that was the intended purpose. For me, I didn't achieve this AT ALL. Deleted scene or no, I thought it was pretty obvious that inmate was conning him all along. The way he WAS with Piscatella, the way he said "It's always candy with you," like he was masking his frustration at not being able to squeeze his guard bf for better benefits, and was a bit sick of Piscatella comparing him to foodstuffs, but put up with it to secure Piscatella's protection and gifts. I thought that whole backstory just made it clear that Piscatella went into his career as a prison guard as a gullible, pathetic, rule-breaking incompetent who has violent overreactions to personal slights, and hasn't changed a bit since then. I think we're going to have to go a LOT further back in Piscatella's history to find out "why" he is the way he is.

On 2017-06-13 at 2:03 PM, chitowngirl said:

Bailey, Poussey's dad is not going to give you any sort of forgiveness 4 days after his daughter's death. There probably hasn't even been a funeral yet.

Except Bayley didn't go there for forgiveness. He went there for punishment. Something he was much more likely to find from a grieving father, after the cops wouldn't arrest him and he failed at taking his own life.

On 2017-06-26 at 8:04 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm kind of baffled at the wide reaction of disgust to the Doggett and Coates story.  In the Big Little Lies forum, you couldn't even voice displeasure at Nicole Kidman's character letting her husband beat her daily without being accused of being totally tone deaf to the plight of the battered women.  Why is Doggett any different and deserving of less sympathy?  Because she's not 5'11", married, rich and gorgeous?   Why is it disgusting for writers to present a woman settling for an abuser on this show, but totally lauded on that one?

I've also been thinking about this. It is not AT ALL unrealistic for a woman to continue to have romantic feelings for a man even after he beats or rapes her. In fact, it's extremely common. And while Doggett's situation is not dissimilar to Celeste's from Big Little Lies, the factor that is different, I think, is the way the abusers themselves are portrayed. If people believed that Perry from BLL really DID love Celeste and could change and be a better husband, that would be one thing, but I don't think that is the case (I haven't spent too much time on the BLL forums, so correct me if I'm wrong). Perry is a pretty straightforward villain, and while we're supposed to see why Celeste is reluctant to leave him, I don't believe we're expected to see him as anything other than a sadistic abuser. In THIS case, the way Coates is portrayed is very ambiguous. Did he absolutely abuse his power and deliberately rape Doggett? Yes. No question. Does it make him a monster that he was able to hold her life in his hands, claim to love her, and choose to violently assault her anyway? Yes. Now the question becomes, is it possible for people to change? Is rehabilitation possible? If so, why not for Coates? And if not, why bother treating inmates like people at all?

One of the themes of the series is the ways in which power corrupts. The way guards are given so much power over the inmates (with so little accountability) that they can get away with doing ANYTHING to the inmates, even killing them, and experience no consequences besides perhaps a relocation to a new facility. In those situations, guards are more or less encouraged to abuse their power, and when Coates had that power, he certainly abused it. But he seems to acknowledge that what he did was wrong, and genuinely regrets it (note: this does NOT mean I think he is absolved or should face no consequences, or that everything is okay now. I'm with Boo on this. It speaks to something very dark in his character that he was able to do that at all). His speech to Doggett was quite poignant, about realizing that the prisoners are there because they HAVE to be, and the guards are there because they CHOOSE to be, and he is taking control of his choices. He seems to acknowledge that getting caught up in the violent prison mindset is harmful, and wants to make different choices and be a better person. Could he be successful? Could he quit his job as a guard and be a decent partner to Doggett from here on out and never abuse her again? I guess it's possible, but I sincerely doubt it (that part of him that led him to rape her in the first place is still a part of him, after all), but the show seems to be playing up the genuine ambiguity of the situation, and I think that is what is making us dislike the plot. Viewers like clear-cut villains, but this situation is full of messy humanity and hard to nail down. Is it really fair to deny Doggett the agency to choose her own partner just because we don't like her choices? For all we know, he truly does feel repulsed by his actions, and if given the opportunity would never treat her unfairly again. It's not likely, but I accept that it is possible.

What I wonder is, if Coates DID get convicted and go to prison for rape, get out after serving his time, and THEN expressed his sincere regret and commitment to being a better person and never hurting a woman again... would people feel the same way? Would we be more likely to believe that he could change if he experienced consequences for his actions and served a prison sentence? Probably, most would be at least SLIGHTLY more open to the idea. But if we accept that the prison system does more harm than good in rehabilitating people, then what's the point? And why couldn't he change for the better WITHOUT that prison experience?

Certainly, this story is a mess of humanity, and Jenji Kohan has never shied away from bringing real human complexity into situations we generally think of as being fairly black and white (and typically generates some controversy in the process). But in a series about crime and rehabilitation, I think the complexity is appropriate here. Why DO people hurt others, abuse others, assert power over others? Does each day bring new choices, or are we who we are forever? I'm certainly interested to see where things go next season! As others have stated, I doubt these two have a lot of domestic bliss to look forward to. But I am looking forward to seeing it all unfold!

Edited July 4, 2017 by Slovenly Muse
Misread the OP, wanted to clarify. Sorry!

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Perry is a pretty straightforward villain, and while we're supposed to see why Celeste is reluctant to leave him, I don't believe we're expected to see him as anything other than a sadistic abuser. In THIS case, the way Coates is portrayed is very ambiguous. Did he absolutely abuse his power and deliberately rape Doggett? Yes. No question. Does it make him a monster that he was able to hold her life in his hands, claim to love her, and choose to violently assault her anyway? Yes. Now the question becomes, is it possible for people to change? Is rehabilitation possible? If so, why not for Coates? And if not, why bother treating inmates like people at all?

I do agree-- Perry got the villain treatment heavily in most eps and that's probably behind the different reactions.  I agree to that Coates is more ambiguous.   I felt the writers were suggesting Coates had no idea what he did was rape.  I googled it to see if others felt the same, and found this reviewer who did.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/167886-pennsatuckys-sympathy-for-her-rapist-in-orange-is-the-new-black-was-an-uncomfortable-reminder-of

Or maybe everyone did, I'm not sure.  I don't feel being ignorant of what is rape is any defense of his actions.  Though it is somewhat less violent than Perry, who raped in order to hurt, explicitly.  Coates didn't even realize he was hurting Doggett until she told him later.  I don't mind seeing where they go from here.  Not because I believe Coates deserves that chance, but because it's not a dynamic you see on many shows.  Usually the rapist is Perry-- an evil, unrepentant monster virtually from the comics.  

I do however dislike how nearly everyone in law enforcement or corrections is depicted as being a total idiot and/or sadist.  

[Guest]

And speaking of rapists portrayed in a sympathetic light later... Pornstache is now getting to play daddy to Daya's baby, which was presented as if it's some happy ending.  I guess the suggestion is anything is better than the foster system.  I don't think all foster situations are bad any more than I think all corrections officers are idiot rapists and sadists.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I can't say I'm sorry to see Piscatella killed. He was unredeemable to me because he enjoyed abusing his power to harass, pick on, and hurt the inmates. I found his meekness at the end unbelievable. After everything he has done to so many of the prisoners, he finally sees Taystee's pain and sympathizes with her enough to give her heartfelt advice about how killing him won't make her feel better? Riiiight. There is definitely a range of goodness/evil in the guards, but Piscatella thought he was better than the inmates and that somehow entitled him to treat them like shit, despite the fact that he was a murderer and therefore worse than most of the women in Litchfield.

For me, the difference between Angie/Leanne and Flaritza is that the meth heads have been shown to be deliberately cruel and spiteful. Flaritza can be petty and insulting to people they don't like, but for the most part they are harmless and their mischief doesn't result in other people getting hurt or in trouble. They tend to contain their projects to themselves, and when they extend outside of that it's because they think they're helping (like giving makeovers to fix other people's bustedness). Angie and Leanne are much more malicious.

Coates can't really be considering keeping Pennsatucky in his guard cottage at the prison, can he? Isn't that harboring a fugitive? If they close Litchfield, he will be out of a job and even if they don't find her, she can't legally work.

On 6/26/2017 at 8:04 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Bursett left the prison early on and surrendered to guards.  I think it was said or implied they took her to max?

When she surrendered to the authorities outside of the prison, they said they were taking her to max. She was then shown at max intake talking to a prisoner who had been in the cell next to her when they were in solitary. Sophia asked if she'd heard anything about Sister Ingalls and was told she'd gotten compassionate release.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I can't say I'm sorry to see Piscatella killed. He was unredeemable to me because he enjoyed abusing his power to harass, pick on, and hurt the inmates. I found his meekness at the end unbelievable. After everything he has done to so many of the prisoners, he finally sees Taystee's pain and sympathizes with her enough to give her heartfelt advice about how killing him won't make her feel better? Riiiight. There is definitely a range of goodness/evil in the guards, but Piscatella thought he was better than the inmates and that somehow entitled him to treat them like shit, despite the fact that he was a murderer and therefore worse than most of the women in Litchfield.

For me, the difference between Angie/Leanne and Flaritza is that the meth heads have been shown to be deliberately cruel and spiteful. Flaritza can be petty and insulting to people they don't like, but for the most part they are harmless and their mischief doesn't result in other people getting hurt or in trouble. They tend to contain their projects to themselves, and when they extend outside of that it's because they think they're helping (like giving makeovers to fix other people's bustedness). Angie and Leanne are much more malicious.

Piscatella's "redemption" was unearned. He's nothing but evil for two seasons - a single flashback where he jumps from naive to a killer (again, unearned) - then he's supposed to be a human being and feel compassion for others? Not likely.

I agree completely with your take on Angie/Leanne vs Flaritza. Flaritza are thoughtless and self-involved, but not cruel.