Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

So, hilariously, Jon apparently kills Dany like 3/4 of the way through the finale, then they have like 30 mins for Jon to take the black and have a council to elect King Bran or whatever, and truly wrap things up.

This suggests that Jon does NOT kill her in the heat of the moment because she's killing everyone after KL surrenders.  It might even mean the bells are to trigger the wildfire.  So this probably means Dany is the one who puts Tyrion on trial (who else would?).  I'm thinking she probably goes on such a rant there, threatening further executions, that Jon Snow finally puts her down.  

1 hour ago, Stallion12 said:

The big thing about Danny making it to episode 6 is her contest with the fan, she wouldn't invite a fan to watch with her if she wasn't in the finale episode.

She has a contest with a fan to watch the final episode?  Whoever wins is probably going to unleash a load of complaints when she gets killed.  Of course, from Emilia Clarke's reactions that we've seen, she'll probably be saying "I know, right!?".  Still, that seems like an odd choice of episode for a contest winner.

When this is over, somebody owes me a better, or happier, ending!

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, Portia4844 said:

Arya killing the NK while Jon was foreshadowed as the possible Prince that was Promised seem to end.  And I'm not opposed to her being the one who killed him.

Did the Red Woman say that the PTWP killed the NK?  Maybe the PTWP is about the throne, the end to war, or something else.  

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, Stallion12 said:

Some sources say against John, but nothing is confirmed yet.

To me, he's already dead. When they killed Missandei, Grey Worm died with her. His reaction tore my heart to shreds. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by spaceghostess

[rmontro]

32 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Did the Red Woman say that the PTWP killed the NK?  Maybe the PTWP is about the throne, the end to war, or something else.  

Jon was instrumental in setting up the defenses at Winterfell, and in gathering the troops together, even if he didn't deliver the killing blow.  Melisandre seemed satisfied the mission was over also, because she left and disintegrated after the battle.

[Portia4844]

49 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Did the Red Woman say that the PTWP killed the NK?  Maybe the PTWP is about the throne, the end to war, or something else.  

No, not the NK.  It was about ending the darkness which may have been represented in the form of the NK in the show.   So you maybe be correct. 

[Portia4844]

23 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Jon was instrumental in setting up the defenses at Winterfell, and in gathering the troops together, even if he didn't deliver the killing blow.  Melisandre seemed satisfied the mission was over also, because she left and disintegrated after the battle.

Then it's good she finally figured out why she brought him back from the dead.  🙂   

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

This suggests that Jon does NOT kill her in the heat of the moment because she's killing everyone after KL surrenders.  It might even mean the bells are to trigger the wildfire.  So this probably means Dany is the one who puts Tyrion on trial (who else would?).  I'm thinking she probably goes on such a rant there, threatening further executions, that Jon Snow finally puts her down.  

She has a contest with a fan to watch the final episode?  Whoever wins is probably going to unleash a load of complaints when she gets killed.  Of course, from Emilia Clarke's reactions that we've seen, she'll probably be saying "I know, right!?".  Still, that seems like an odd choice of episode for a contest winner.

When this is over, somebody owes me a better, or happier, ending!

Yea , you got flown to London with a free hotel room to watch it with her, it was for charity. I almost went for it, I brought it up only to say it's clear she makes it to episode 6.

[glowbug]

The Prince That Was Promised is supposed to save the world from darkness. Who sits on the Iron Throne or if an Iron Throne even exists doesn’t have that much of an affect on Essos. Also, the Others are associated with night and darkness. I don’t think there’s really a way to twist the conflict with Cersei or even Mad Queen Dany into fitting that prophecy. 

[rmontro]

24 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

There are as many conflicting and nonsense-making leaks/spoilers as Dem presidential candidates, so I'm not up for believing or disbelieving very much, at this point, other than Drogon's probably going to go down.

Some spoilers say that Drogon flies off with Daenerys' body.

But some say he gets killed in the attack on King's Landing.  If Drogon does die, I could see that as being what pushes Dany over the edge.

[QuinnM]

21 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

No, not the NK.  It was about ending the darkness which may have been represented in the form of the NK in the show.   So you maybe be correct.

A lot of the criticism has talked about that point. Arya was never the PTWP so how could you just have her kill the NK?  Now after a week or two I’m thinking. We haven’t seen the PTWP yet.  We have yet to see the person or the path for the prophecy.

If that’s true then it’s too soon to criticize the path to the end game.  We don’t know the end game yet.  And I plan to watch the final episodes thinking that.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Spending 55 days shooting one battle scene will probably get them an emmy, or at least some of them.  It was freezing, it was night shoots. 

The saddest parts of all that effort? 

1. You could not see most of it, because woo!  Dramatic dark scenes, with Messy getting to light it all up for a second.
2. COMPLETELY idiot battle plans.  I mean, there is no way they could have been more stupid.  From leaving the castle (hello!  fortress!  built for this shit!) to not using the dragons properly, let's hide in the dungeons...the whole thing was for visual effect, while making the characters looks beyond incompetent and frankly, like fools.
3. The big bad they have used for promotion for ten years WINTER IS COMING lasted all of one evening.
4. Why would the rest of Westeros even believe them?  It only happened to Winterfell.  The Vale has been preparing for decades, and previous winters (NK) lasted years.
5. It's obvious they just wanted magic out of the way, so they could focus on Cersei.  Oh, and keep the dragons because they are cool.  Screw Direwolves, or explaining Bran, drop the whole religious prophesy stuff...on to CERSEI!

1. I've been in the business for almost 50 years, I can confirm a good portion of the population, never read the damn manual, many won't take it out of showroom mode, they'l call the local cable or Sat guy ( and that's not their job, legal reasons. ) do I agree with the Camera director, no, not 100 % ( because a little processing could help a lot ), but I had 2 LED's and a plasma, ( I have an LCD, but I don't use it for TV watching )and except for the distance view, I saw the giant and the swarm, library etc. fine. Do I disagree with all the viewers, not 100% I'm just stating what you usually find in the public domain.

2 & 3. The tactics were faulty, they sped to they got overwhelmed and only a miracle saved them, and it lasted almost twelve hours, dusk to dawn.The people were fighting for their lives, and if they wanted to go full depressing, that battle be over in under 3 hours, instead they lasted till dawn. 

4. Well the Queen should had summon the maesters, and others, blame her, Jon and company did their part, Cersei didn't care, and that was her plan.

5. Like wolves, Ghost was done dirty, instead of leaving him with Tormond, Jon should of kept him in Winterfell, I'm sure Sansa would had taken care of him, she's more wolf then Jon is at the moment.

Dragons, I never cared about dragons, it's what kept me SOoooo neutral on Dani, and locking them up, doesn't keep her fro falling back on them.

Finally, I'm not letting my ass get into an uproar because they went with a bullet train, I thought E4 was good, not all the writing, but a good portion of the episode. From all the reactors I saw they were crying, laughing, sighing, angered, and confused all the emotions you would expect.

There's not much D & D can do( well they better airbrush out the coffee cup from DVD release ), except score big on the last two.

I'm just going to finish the ride and hope the books come out; or as I said before GRRM not getting through the Pearly Gates due to mortal sinning.

[Umbelina]

Coffee cup disappeared already.

Wish I could say the same thing about Cersei, but alas, she's the new "big bad" which is laughable.  Anything for Lena.

[Snowball II]

45 minutes ago, glowbug said:

The Prince That Was Promised is supposed to save the world from darkness. Who sits on the Iron Throne or if an Iron Throne even exists doesn’t have that much of an affect on Essos. Also, the Others are associated with night and darkness. I don’t think there’s really a way to twist the conflict with Cersei or even Mad Queen Dany into fitting that prophecy. 

A thousand times YES.  What a weak-ass retcon they're trying to pull.  I hate it.

[Portia4844]

40 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

A lot of the criticism has talked about that point. Arya was never the PTWP so how could you just have her kill the NK?  Now after a week or two I’m thinking. We haven’t seen the PTWP yet.  We have yet to see the person or the path for the prophecy.

If that’s true then it’s too soon to criticize the path to the end game.  We don’t know the end game yet.  And I plan to watch the final episodes thinking that.

It's going to be interesting to see if this is addressed before it's over.  Maybe Bran will become more vocal on what he knows. 

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Two, JAIME DID NOT RAPE CERSEI!  He would never, not ever do that.  But, it gave Lena great scenes to play, and it gave Cersei sympathy, which honestly, she does not deserve in any fashion whatsoever.

He did. It was on screen.

[ShellsandCheese]

I believe they were referring to changes made on the show vs. the book. Book Jaime never rapes Cersei. Show Jaime did, I’m guessing to make Cersei more sympathetic or perhaps because the writers really liked to use rape as a plot device. That’s actually my biggest disappoint with some of the spoilers I’ve heard related to the Dothraki going on a raping spree in one of the last two episodes. Ugh. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[WindyNights]

17 hours ago, Leila6 said:

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason.

I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

GRRM has an interesting fascination with humans becoming gods in his stories.

That said, GRRM is really just replicating what the Targaryens had with their dragons with Bran and his powers.  The dragons were what kept people in line for the Targaryens.

Bran's powers are Hobbes' Leviathan that keeps the people in line.

Yezenirl's Weirwood Leviathan got pretty close to King Bran and only didn't go that far because he admittedly wasn't sure if GRRM was bold enough to park Bran on the throne. This is what  he said:

So there is this book by the 16th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes called ‘Leviathan’. As one of the earliest and most influential examples of social contract theory, Leviathan is at its most basic level an attempt at answering the grand old sociopolitical question; “What holds society together?” What holds people together? Why aren’t we all killing each other right now?

Now in the book, Hobbes, having lived through a bunch of civil wars himself, asserts that humankind’s ‘state of nature’ is one of all-out war, of every man for themselves. All against all. He posits that while small communities can function, larger societies cannot exist peacefully unless mankind relinquishes a degree of control or self-governance to a Leviathan. In mythology, a Leviathan (Hebrew for ‘whale’), is a large sea monster or dragon, a demon often associated with envy. But in this metaphor it’s any sovereign power which promises security from the chaos of all-out war in exchange for submission to its will. Hobbes characterizes the Leviathan as the ‘killer of the children of pride.’ And the children of pride are all of the other smaller factions who think they can be leviathans by establish control themselves, and consequently end up killing one another and creating all out chaos in the process. Of course Hobbes does not consider the children of pride an anomaly, but an inevitability of mankind’s natural desire for power. Essentially the leviathan is a big fish in a small pond that makes all the other fish stop fighting, and though that sounds like a big bully, once that big fish is gone everyone starts killing each other, trying to take its place. It’s like a big game of King of the Castle…. with sea monsters.

.......

Once Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest set up a friendly regime to stabilize Westeros, complete with a Philosopher’s Throne to reflect the Greenseer, Bran will effectively be able to....oversee the realm, and maintain fail safe control over the most powerful weapons in the realm. When spring comes, power would ultimately reside with a boy taught to transcend the petty pride and violence of mankind and use his sight to see all sides of a conflict and truly act for the greater good. Effectively, a god on earth. Not literally the one from the stories of the fabled Great Empire of the Dawn, but rather a reflection of that ideal of a society at it’s highest, ruled by a god.

But we need to dispense with the idealistic utopian version of this and see this arrangement realistically. What makes for the “right” decision, or the “ideal” society is subjective and imperfect and has been discussed and debated by philosophers and societies for ages. What we really need to acknowledge here is the bias. Bloodraven was an absolutist who’s notion of an ideal society was always one where power resided with a central sovereign who looked beyond strict customs or what was popular, and acted for the greater good, and for him this is his best option to deal with the conflicting interests of humanity. In fact it’s rather fitting that all of this is happening now on Brynden River’s watch, as he seems willing to break several of the central customs typically associated with the Old Gods.

Edited May 12, 2019 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

16 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

He might not have, it's again all assumed bran will be king. It could be just a council with him on it.

The books are foreshadowing a god-king

15 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I am not thrilled by the development either and have written so several times. The problem lies IMO in the excution and I'm blaming both D and D (for using to many shorcuts to come to the point) and GRR Martin (for not coming to the point at all).

But I assume GRR Martin planned this ending because he had something to say about both Jon and Dany and that this isn't "women rulers are bad". To change it because some fans don't like it were artistically a disappointment.

Preston Jacobs had this to say about Dany, Jon and Bran using another story that involved a human becoming a god and providing a solution in one of GRRM's stories.

"The question is what is good in the long term and what will last. Now many people read Ice and Fire and hope for Jon and Dany to sit on the Iron throne at the end but that is not a lasting answer. The problems facing Westeros are incredibly complicated and I would say they too require a god-like intervention. This would point us more toward an ending involving Bran or the weirwood net."

Looks like Preston Jacobs actually got it.

[Andromeda]

This post is a good one assessing the changes and what season 8 has to overcome to tell a satisfying story.

The Key to ‘Game of Thrones’ Season 8 Isn’t Dragons or Swords or White Walkers or Even Incest. It’s Consequence.

I also love this one, because I don't think GRRM himself can stick the landing. There are too many tentacles.

Want to know why Game of Thrones *feels* so different now? I think I can explain. Without spoilers

Both make essentially the same point -- the lack of consequences in the drive to the end. 

Quote

Well, GRRM is one of the most epic pantsers around. He talks about writing like cultivating a garden. He plants character seeds and carefully lets them grow and grow.

That’s why every plot point and fair-in-hindsight surprise landed with such devastating weight: everything that happened to these characters happened because of their past choices. But it’s also the reason why the narrative momentum of the books slowed over time.....

So with only two seasons to work with, they started asking themselves what was left to do. What could they build with the pieces left in the box? What beats did they just have to include? 

What big moments did they want to deliver? Where should the characters end up? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to see on screen before the show came to an end? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list. 

And once they had that list, it was time to connect the dots to make it all happen. So they started maneuvering the characters into the emotional and literal places they needed to be for all those dots to connect up in the right way. 

That’s why Game of Thrones feels different now. A show that had been about the weight of the past became about the spectacle of the present. Characters with incredible depth and agency - all the more rope with which to hang themselves - became pieces on a giant war map....

Where once the characters authored their own, terrible destinies, now they were forced to take uncharacteristic actions and make uncharacteristically bad decisions so the necessary plot points could happen and the appropriate stakes could be felt....

Edited May 12, 2019 by Andromeda
added quotes

[Indi]

For me, one of the most disappointing parts about this season has been, how Varys has been written. Even though I've always enjoyed his dynamic with Tyrion, Varys has always worked best as a counterpoint to Littlefinger, so last season he had already lost some of his luster. This season, however, they've given the excellent Conleth Hill such subpar material to work with! The more I think about his scenes in the last episode, the less I like them. I think Varys was very out of character, turning against Dany so quickly for such a flimsy reason as Jon having the right genitals for the throne.

If the spoilers are right, he'll be executed early next episode for being clumsy and stupid, something he has never been and I couldn't be more annoyed.

[Stallion12]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

1. I've been in the business for almost 50 years, I can confirm a good portion of the population, never read the damn manual, many won't take it out of showroom mode, they'l call the local cable or Sat guy ( and that's not their job, legal reasons. ) do I agree with the Camera director, no, not 100 % ( because a little processing could help a lot ), but I had 2 LED's and a plasma, ( I have an LCD, but I don't use it for TV watching )and except for the distance view, I saw the giant and the swarm, library etc. fine. Do I disagree with all the viewers, not 100% I'm just stating what you usually find in the public domain.

2 & 3. The tactics were faulty, they sped to they got overwhelmed and only a miracle saved them, and it lasted almost twelve hours, dusk to dawn.The people were fighting for their lives, and if they wanted to go full depressing, that battle be over in under 3 hours, instead they lasted till dawn. 

4. Well the Queen should had summon the maesters, and others, blame her, Jon and company did their part, Cersei didn't care, and that was her plan.

5. Like wolves, Ghost was done dirty, instead of leaving him with Tormond, Jon should of kept him in Winterfell, I'm sure Sansa would had taken care of him, she's more wolf then Jon is at the moment.

Dragons, I never cared about dragons, it's what kept me SOoooo neutral on Dani, and locking them up, doesn't keep her fro falling back on them.

Finally, I'm not letting my ass get into an uproar because they went with a bullet train, I thought E4 was good, not all the writing, but a good portion of the episode. From all the reactors I saw they were crying, laughing, sighing, angered, and confused all the emotions you would expect.

There's not much D & D can do( well they better airbrush out the coffee cup from DVD release ), except score big on the last two.

I'm just going to finish the ride and hope the books come out; or as I said before GRRM not getting through the Pearly Gates due to mortal sinning.

The episode was dark, glad you saw it just fine, but not many of us did. It was a bad move making it that dark.

[Stallion12]

46 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM has an interesting fascination with humans becoming gods in his stories.

That said, GRRM is really just replicating what the Targaryens had with their dragons with Bran and his powers.  The dragons were what kept people in line for the Targaryens.

Bran's powers are Hobbes' Leviathan that keeps the people in line.

Yezenirl's Weirwood Leviathan got pretty close to King Bran and only didn't go that far because he admittedly wasn't sure if GRRM was bold enough to park Bran on the throne. This is what  he said:

So there is this book by the 16th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes called ‘Leviathan’. As one of the earliest and most influential examples of social contract theory, Leviathan is at its most basic level an attempt at answering the grand old sociopolitical question; “What holds society together?” What holds people together? Why aren’t we all killing each other right now?

Now in the book, Hobbes, having lived through a bunch of civil wars himself, asserts that humankind’s ‘state of nature’ is one of all-out war, of every man for themselves. All against all. He posits that while small communities can function, larger societies cannot exist peacefully unless mankind relinquishes a degree of control or self-governance to a Leviathan. In mythology, a Leviathan (Hebrew for ‘whale’), is a large sea monster or dragon, a demon often associated with envy. But in this metaphor it’s any sovereign power which promises security from the chaos of all-out war in exchange for submission to its will. Hobbes characterizes the Leviathan as the ‘killer of the children of pride.’ And the children of pride are all of the other smaller factions who think they can be leviathans by establish control themselves, and consequently end up killing one another and creating all out chaos in the process. Of course Hobbes does not consider the children of pride an anomaly, but an inevitability of mankind’s natural desire for power. Essentially the leviathan is a big fish in a small pond that makes all the other fish stop fighting, and though that sounds like a big bully, once that big fish is gone everyone starts killing each other, trying to take its place. It’s like a big game of King of the Castle…. with sea monsters.

.......

Once Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest set up a friendly regime to stabilize Westeros, complete with a Philosopher’s Throne to reflect the Greenseer, Bran will effectively be able to....oversee the realm, and maintain fail safe control over the most powerful weapons in the realm. When spring comes, power would ultimately reside with a boy taught to transcend the petty pride and violence of mankind and use his sight to see all sides of a conflict and truly act for the greater good. Effectively, a god on earth. Not literally the one from the stories of the fabled Great Empire of the Dawn, but rather a reflection of that ideal of a society at it’s highest, ruled by a god.

But we need to dispense with the idealistic utopian version of this and see this arrangement realistically. What makes for the “right” decision, or the “ideal” society is subjective and imperfect and has been discussed and debated by philosophers and societies for ages. What we really need to acknowledge here is the bias. Bloodraven was an absolutist who’s notion of an ideal society was always one where power resided with a central sovereign who looked beyond strict customs or what was popular, and acted for the greater good, and for him this is his best option to deal with the conflicting interests of humanity. In fact it’s rather fitting that all of this is happening now on Brynden River’s watch, as he seems willing to break several of the central customs typically associated with the Old Gods.

Problem is the show built none of  that up.

40 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

The books are foreshadowing a god-king

Preston Jacobs had this to say about Dany, Jon and Bran using another story that involved a human becoming a god and providing a solution in one of GRRM's stories.

"The question is what is good in the long term and what will last. Now many people read Ice and Fire and hope for Jon and Dany to sit on the Iron throne at the end but that is not a lasting answer. The problems facing Westeros are incredibly complicated and I would say they too require a god-like intervention. This would point us more toward an ending involving Bran or the weirwood net."

Looks like Preston Jacobs actually got it.

Perhaps, but the show doesn't. They should have spent more time with bran if that's the endgame .

[bijoux]

20 minutes ago, Indi said:

For me, one of the most disappointing parts about this season has been, how Varys has been written. Even though I've always enjoyed his dynamic with Tyrion, Varys has always worked best as a counterpoint to Littlefinger, so last season he had already lost some of his luster. This season, however, they've given the excellent Conleth Hill such subpar material to work with! The more I think about his scenes in the last episode, the less I like them. I think Varys was very out of character, turning against Dany so quickly for such a flimsy reason as Jon having the right genitals for the throne.

If the spoilers are right, he'll be executed early next episode for being clumsy and stupid, something he has never been and I couldn't be more annoyed.

Thinking it over, I don't think Varys scheming is out of character, but perfectly IN character. He schemed to bring Aerys down and I'm willing to bet he started scheming against Robert before he was crowned. Or doing his due dilligence at least. So it actually makes sense that he's suspicious and keeping his eyes open. I just think the drive to get Dany out, yo, bitch crazy, took too sharp a turn. It would be more in line to have him watchful and suspicious, and being on the lookout for a possible replacement should the need for one arise. 

[loki567]

A couple things I wonder about Bran, God Emperor of Westeros:

1. Does GRRM have plans for a post-ASOIAF Westeros story? I'm wondering if he might go full Dune with it and try some sort of far-flung story about a rebellion against 3ER a couple hundred years in Westero's future. 

2. Did GRRM tell D&D that Bran would lose his personality when he took the persona of 3ER? How would he plan to write Bran's PoV if he'll know everything?

I've heard it speculated that we might lose Jon's PoV due to his murder and the reason why we got Melisandre's is because GRRM wanted a PoV at the wall. It would be extremely messed up if something similar happens with Bran and we keep losing our connections with the Starks. 

[sunflower]

6 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I've heard it speculated that we might lose Jon's PoV due to his murder and the reason why we got Melisandre's is because GRRM wanted a PoV at the wall. It would be extremely messed up if something similar happens with Bran and we keep losing our connections with the Starks. 

I've always hated what happened to Bran w/this whole 3Raven, losing his personality and losing his POV in the book? I think actually Bran will be the last POV in the books w/maybe an epilogue after? To reflect how the story began. Maybe it will be though a "Tree-God's view" POV. Which I find depressing AF. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Indi said:

For me, one of the most disappointing parts about this season has been, how Varys has been written. Even though I've always enjoyed his dynamic with Tyrion, Varys has always worked best as a counterpoint to Littlefinger, so last season he had already lost some of his luster. This season, however, they've given the excellent Conleth Hill such subpar material to work with! The more I think about his scenes in the last episode, the less I like them. I think Varys was very out of character, turning against Dany so quickly for such a flimsy reason as Jon having the right genitals for the throne.

If the spoilers are right, he'll be executed early next episode for being clumsy and stupid, something he has never been and I couldn't be more annoyed.

It makes a lot of sense to me. TV Varys’ loyalty has always been first and foremost to the realm, not the Targs. He only supported Dany because he thought she might bring long-term peace and prosperity to Westeros. The moment he started to doubt that, he would turn on her as he turned on others. Varys was also horrified by Dany burning the Tarlys in S7 and warned Tyrion that he needed to find a way to make her listen. He clearly carries a lot of guilt about all the atrocities he enabled as Aerys’ advisor, as he told Tyrion in 7x05 that he would tell himself that he was merely a purveyor of information. Varys jumping ship the minute a better option appeared is completely in character to me. I have issues with S8, but that isn’t one of them.

It does seem that Varys will be dispatched pretty early in the episode to make way for the KL craziness, which seems like a shitty end for such a great character.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Eyes High

[Morrigan2575]

I have not read the books just reading theories and explanations of prophecies from the books.

If 805 and 806 go down as spoiled, I'm guessing it's the answer to Azor Ahai, with Dany as Nissa Nissa.  So if Jon goes back to the Wall or The Watch it's because the "real" fight with the others is just beginning.

Maybe that's what some of the actors meant when they talked of an open/non ending for characters? It could also explain how/why Bran is made King. He will lead/tell them how to prepare for the "real" Long Night?

[paigow]

The finale title should be: The Desolation of Drogon

[sunflower]

Quote

The finale title should be: The Desolation of Drogon

Tonight's Episode should be called "The Last Dragon" re: Dany/Drogon and a little Jon. But, really Dany if she goes Mad Queen. They already did "Fire and Blood" in first season, unless they try to pull a Lannistereque title. Last episode, should be "A Time for Wolves", alternate title for "A Dream of Spring." 

[Indi]

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

Thinking it over, I don't think Varys scheming is out of character, but perfectly IN character. He schemed to bring Aerys down and I'm willing to bet he started scheming against Robert before he was crowned. Or doing his due dilligence at least. So it actually makes sense that he's suspicious and keeping his eyes open. I just think the drive to get Dany out, yo, bitch crazy, took too sharp a turn. It would be more in line to have him watchful and suspicious, and being on the lookout for a possible replacement should the need for one arise. 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It makes a lot of sense to me. TV Varys’ loyalty has always been first and foremost to the realm, not the Targs. He only supported Dany because he thought she might bring long-term peace and prosperity to Westeros. The moment he started to doubt that, he would turn on her as he turned on others. Varys was also horrified by Dany burning the Tarlys in S7 and warned Tyrion that he needed to find a way to make her listen. He clearly carries a lot of guilt about all the atrocities he enabled as Aerys’ advisor, as he told Tyrion in 7x05 that he would tell himself that he was merely a purveyor of information. Varys jumping ship the minute a better option appeared is completely in character to me. I have issues with S8, but that isn’t one of them.

It does seem that Varys will be dispatched pretty early in the episode to make way for the KL craziness, which seems like a shitty end for such a great character.

You two make very good points. It's no so much that he's scheming, but the sloppy rushed way it's been written, but that is an issue with almost every character and plot this season.

[galaxygirl76]

8 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I believe they were referring to changes made on the show vs. the book. Book Jaime never rapes Cersei. Show Jaime did, I’m guessing to make Cersei more sympathetic or perhaps because the writers really liked to use rape as a plot device. That’s actually my biggest disappoint with some of the spoilers I’ve heard related to the Dothraki going on a raping spree in one of the last two episodes. Ugh. 

It's been forever since I watched the first season but didn't Drogo rape Dany on their wedding night on the show? Definitely did not happen in the book either. 

[Stallion12]

4 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

It's been forever since I watched the first season but didn't Drogo rape Dany on their wedding night on the show? Definitely did not happen in the book either. 

Yes.

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, sunflower said:

Tonight's Episode should be called "The Last Dragon" re: Dany/Drogon and a little Jon. But, really Dany if she goes Mad Queen. They already did "Fire and Blood" in first season, unless they try to pull a Lannistereque title. Last episode, should be "A Time for Wolves", alternate title for "A Dream of Spring." 

I don't know why they're releasing episode titles after the episode airs (something I've never seen before), since none of them have been spoilery; it's not as if it was a secret that the third episode was the big NK battle episode, after all. Maybe the last two episodes have spoilery titles.

[sunflower]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe the last two episodes have spoilery titles.

Really, if tonight's episode is called "Mad Queen on a Ledge" or something, I might hurt a D. 

[Dobian]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

This post is a good one assessing the changes and what season 8 has to overcome to tell a satisfying story.

The Key to ‘Game of Thrones’ Season 8 Isn’t Dragons or Swords or White Walkers or Even Incest. It’s Consequence.

I also love this one, because I don't think GRRM himself can stick the landing. There are too many tentacles.

Want to know why Game of Thrones *feels* so different now? I think I can explain. Without spoilers

Both make essentially the same point -- the lack of consequences in the drive to the end. 

If you want to look at the difference between a plotter and a pantser, you could compare Martin to J.K. Rowling, a meticulous plotter who story boarded the whole Harry Potter saga.  Each has its strengths and weaknesses, as the article points out.  In the case of GoT, I don't think the plot-driven focus of the writers in the past three seasons synced up well with the pantser focus of the earlier seasons when the show was based off the books.  It made the show feel different, especially in seasons 7 and 8.

[sunflower]

8 minutes ago, Dobian said:

don't think the plot-driven focus of the writers in the past three seasons synced up well with the pantser focus of the earlier seasons when the show was based off the books.  It made the show feel different, especially in seasons 7 and 8.

An example which is crucial is how long it took to get places was part of the plot w/Martin and now they're jet packing, which makes the earlier seasons' long travels as problematic to reach people as weird. Arya is key here, think of her going to the Wall, getting stuck at Harrenhal, not making to the Twins by time of Red Wedding (which probably saved her life). Wanting to go to the Wall, but having to go to Bravos instead because that's where the ship captain was going. Getting to the Eyrie too late, when her aunt was dead. Bran! long Travels to the wall, and beyond the wall. All of Season 3 was just traveling from Winterfell to get to go beyond the Wall. 

[Maximum Taco]

20 minutes ago, sunflower said:

An example which is crucial is how long it took to get places was part of the plot w/Martin and now they're jet packing, which makes the earlier seasons' long travels as problematic to reach people as weird. Arya is key here, think of her going to the Wall, getting stuck at Harrenhal, not making to the Twins by time of Red Wedding (which probably saved her life). Wanting to go to the Wall, but having to go to Bravos instead because that's where the ship captain was going. Getting to the Eyrie too late, when her aunt was dead. Bran! long Travels to the wall, and beyond the wall. All of Season 3 was just traveling from Winterfell to get to go beyond the Wall. 

This is the same thing with the Battle of Meereen.

In the books

Quentyn Martell needs to reach a chaotic Meereen one Dany might be willing to abandon when the Son of Dorne comes to tempt her with Westeros. He needs to die with her out of the city.

Tyrion needs to reach a peaceful Meereen when the fighting pits have reopened, so she can save him from the fighting pits.

Victarion needs to reach a Meereen embroiled in war. So he can prove himself to Dany.

All the while Dany needs to slowly gain a grip on the city in time for it to light a powder keg in the final act.

All these actions are going to have consequences later on. 

Quentyn's death will likely push Dorne further into support of fAegon who will probably entertain the match to Arianne Martell

Tyrion will become Hand of the Queen, just like the show, because he's a main character and they can't alter too much. 

Victarion will provide Daenerys with ships, (and maybe give her a destructive method by which she can control her dragons, but will also kill them or breed resentment towards her?)

But in the show there is no Quentyn or Victarion, so the story of Dany as a Mary Sue just kind of perpetuates itself. 

Dorne falls in behind her because there is no Quentyn, or Arianne or fAegon. And the Tyrells too, because why the fuck not? And then when the show can't figure out what to do with them, they die without any impact because again, why the fuck not?

No ships? No problem, Yara and Theon show up as Deus ex Machina and immediately pledge themselves to her cause, and she excepts their widely ridiculous terms of independence. 

Can't control her dragons? Fuck that, it's too hard, now she can magically control them with no explanation.  

Edited May 12, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Portia4844]

Unless Bran is immune to anyone but the NK killing him, making him the King with a council is a strange way to go.  It wouldn't suddenly make those on his council (now or in the future) so full of goodwill there would never be any disagreement with Bran's decisions.  

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Coffee cup disappeared already.

not joking, did they ?

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Unless Bran is immune to anyone but the NK killing him, making him the King with a council is a strange way to go.  It wouldn't suddenly make those on his council (now or in the future) so full of goodwill there would never be any disagreement with Bran's decisions.  

If Bran is shown more or less emotion free i.e neutral, then there's still room for bickering, he lets them bicker now.

Assuming, he and Sansa, Arya not actually planning something in the Godswood.

[galaxygirl76]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

not joking, did they ?

I read HBO took care of it.

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

I read HBO took care of it.

Just not in a timely manner LOL.

[BitterApple]

24 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Unless Bran is immune to anyone but the NK killing him, making him the King with a council is a strange way to go.  It wouldn't suddenly make those on his council (now or in the future) so full of goodwill there would never be any disagreement with Bran's decisions.  

Precisely why I loathe this endgame. We've had to assume Bran only gets slices of the past, present and future; otherwise it's impossible to excuse how useless he's been in providing his family with information to help defeat the NK and Cersei. So if that's the case, how can he make fair decisions with no context? Is he going to be a puppet with the real decision making going to Tyrion, a la Tywin/Joffrey? He says he doesn't "want anymore," but is that a good thing? What about wanting equality, peace and justice? From what moral compass does he base his rule? What's his lifespan? What happens if/when he dies and has no heirs to take over? Sorry for the rant, but the whole thing is shit. Complete shit. 

[Detective005]

I can say that: i don’t want to believe  

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

What happens if/when he dies and has no heirs to take over?

Presumably the next Three-Eyed Raven would take over, just like Bran took over for Max von Sydow.

Basically, this would be an eternal monarchy.

[Affogato]

23 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

not joking, did they ?

They should have left it and done an outtake where everyone is at a starbucks for inclusion on the dvd. Cersei and tyrion will get wine frappuchinos. 

[Minneapple]

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

He did. It was on screen.

Well, the writers and or Directors said it, wasn't to come off like that, but it was consensual in books.

So, some one doesn't know how to put it on film.

[ShellsandCheese]

I wonder if The Last War will be the episode title. 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I wonder if The Last War will be the episode title. 

I thought that's what it inferred my self.