Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, Azi said:

Plot twist: Jon dies and his face will be used to kill Dany. Mayhem.

If Jon dies - which I think seems likely - it will be similar to Beric. He will die in a way that directly achieves a very important goal.

Obviously the Lord of Light did not bring him back to stop the NK - there is a different reason.

Who knows, maybe it is just to knock up Dany with the PtwP.

[YaddaYadda]

28 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Who knows, maybe it is just to knock up Dany with the PtwP.

What do they need the PtwP for? The Others are gone, there shouldn't be another Long Night. 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

It really amazes me how hungry people are to see Dany die or be betrayed . Cersei doesn’t even come close to this level of fandom hatred and she has literally had women raped, tortured and Lady killed . I don’t know what else Dany could do to prove that she is not a villain , cause apparently saving Jon multiple times and fighting with Jorah after falling off a dragon against Wights with no training is not enough to prove her worth to people.

I choose not to think it is sexism but rather a trope that many people want to see in their women. Crazy women, done wrong women, sick or dying women.  Also I think GOT set up some foilers that people have speculated over so much they just can't let it go now that the show clearly isn't going there. 

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, Minneapple said:

It only makes sense if the final battle is a true Dance of the Dragons, Jon vs. Dany. Jon needs a big moment because he didn't kill the Night King. Killing Cersei is not a satisfying death for Jon. Like who cares if Jon kills Cersei? That honor should go to Jaime or someone who has a bigger connection to her.

Dany was unable to kill the Night King herself and she lost another person she loves (Jorah). I think these things are going to play heavily on her over the last three episodes. I don't know that she'll go "mad," but obviously if Jon is killing her then she's become dangerous in some way.

Well, they did say 3-5 were a full story, beginning, middle, end. If the show goes Arya/NightKing, Dany/Cersei, Jon/Dany that could be it.

After 803 I can't see Tyrion betraying the Starks unless it's to save Dany. Maybe the point of that Tyrion/Sansa conversation was a hint. 

Assuming the Dany/Jon stuff is right (and I'm iffy). Then maybe Dany goes Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, the Starks/Jon/Alliance plan to put her down to save Kings Landing/Westeros. Tyrion betrays them, informs Dany who kills everyone in Kings Landing?

It's a massive stretch because I just don't see Tyrion of 803 going there. Dany is possible only because she's lost so much (Jorah, the Dothraki, most of the Unsullied) and was very frightened when she fell off Dragon (totally understandable). I can't recall the last time something scared Dany. Maybe she's just shook and goes on a downward spiral.

If that's the case I'm guessing Jon just gives up, goes North of the Wall and lives a solitary existence free from war, violence, fighting, politics, etc.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

(snip)

Ultimately, I think that there is no win-win for TPTB and  the fandom here.  D&D will ultimately put on the throne (if there is one left) who GRRM wants on the throne. I don't think they will deviate on that point, just maybe how they get there. Regardless, no matter who is on the throne people are going to complain.

(snip)

Wait, I've been away for awhile, did GRRM actually TELL them who he plans to be on the throne?  I thought he got pretty snippy about them not waiting for him to finish his book, and clammed up?

10 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I wondered the same about the lack of snow and the bright sun over KL.

Theoretically, Winter is only caused by the NK, or is it that the NK can only appear in Winter?  Either way, at least we should be able to actually see what happens if the sun is out.

That said, I have a very hard time believing that GRRM would have Kings Landing completely safe from "Winter" in the books, but I do believe it's conceivable that he planned, all along, for Arya to be the one to kill the NK.  It certainly explains her endless training.  I love the way the dagger came into, and completed that story as well.

While I'm shocked that the NK is already dead and the main big bad so relatively easily disposed of?  I like the way it was handled, and I think it really fits, in all but the location of Winterfell.

7 hours ago, screamin said:

Well, since Winterfell didn't burn down entirely as expected, the food stores are still there (unless the one building we saw the NK burn down did contain them) and Dany's armies are much less than they were, as well as the general population of the North. However, both dragons improbably survived, and since they eat a herd of cattle every day, which the survivors will have to feed with their stored grain instead of slaughtering them and eating them themselves - yes, there's probably still a time limit on how long they can stay at WF.

Still, the food situation would not require an immediate march south in the winter. I think there would be time for some politicking with the most obvious candidate for the next alliance - the one region untouched by war, with plenty of food - the Vale. So there will be parley with SR, and probably Sansa's hand will be required as the price for aid. Anticlimactic, really.

Damn, the more I think about it, the more annoyed I get at how the showrunners just brushed aside the whole threat from beyond the Wall so early. The whole theme of A Song of Ice and Fire was about selfish aristocrats victimizing each other and the entire population based on their essentially childish greed for possession of power ("A Game of Thrones") while truly serious threats are ignored - like the Others, which can stand for ANY looming disaster that powermongers choose to ignore in their squabbles.

Instead, the showrunners are basically telling us the selfish aristocrats - as personified by Cersei - are right. The squabbles ARE really the most important thing, so we're going to have some more of them and kill some more people for them till someone finally gets the throne. Bleh.

I agree.

I don't know if the show will do it, or even has time to do it, but, although I have issues with GRRM and his writing (and lack of writing) I did think that his writing was at it's best when he showed the devastation of the people, and starvation inevitable from the moment Cersei's daddy burned out the stores of food and left destruction every place he went.

I always felt the Vale would be a huge battle, since they were just about the only area of Westeros who planned ahead, and prepared for Winter, as well as cleverly defended and evaded the whole mess of war and it's costs.  I think we are in fast forward mode now though, so I'll be shocked, but pleased, if it's even mentioned.

20 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I have absolutely NO idea how the rest of the season is going to go down.

There is a battle in KL, and there's a dragon there because it involves a ballista.

That's about it, LOL.

Neither do I. 

I kind of bought into the idea of "prince that was promised" might be Jon, or Dany's baby perhaps, being sacrificed to become the next NK.  Jon seemed the most likely to me, with a sad Dany letting him sacrifice himself.  If this happened, I also thought we'd get more of an answer as to why having a NK was needed, or rather, still needed, in Westeros.

Either way, I'm thrilled that someone is ending this story, because I don't think we will ever get an ending from GRRM, this one will have to do.

I hope we aren't reduced to only the NK, Winterfell, and KL being important though.

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

Killed by Jaime, if we're following the source material.

Though from the sound of it D&D just made up the entire resolution to the White Walker story by themselves.

I always thought Jamie killing her would be too obvious, but now I'm not so sure.  I think the show will do this, but I'm not as sure that GRRM will, if he lives long enough to tell us.

Someone posted the idea that her pregnancy (a son presumably) would kill her.  That works as well, not HER "little brother" but certainly Joffrey's.

In the end I think it will be Jamie, probably when mad Queen Cersei starts to burn Kings Landing, because of the symmetry of the Jamie's story, who killed the last ruler, for the same reason.

Another alternative is Cersei simply getting in the way during a sword fight with Euron and Jamie accidentally killing her.

19 hours ago, nikma said:

Interesting choice, to kill NK now and  to have Arya kill him. Benioff said they thought it would be boring if Jon killed him, so it seems this has nothing to do with GRRM.

Maybe not, but GRRM, in retrospect, certainly set up all the reasons it would be Arya.  I just have a hard time believing it would happen at Winterfell, because I think GRRM will have the NK and his walkers get a lot further south and do a great deal more damage to the already devastated poor and middle class of Westeros.

---

Dany seems to be the only one to actually WANT to sit on the Iron Throne, therefore I will be completely shocked if she does.  She may for a moment, but I can't see her ruling Westeros even though I think she's probably the most qualified.  She makes all of her mistakes elsewhere really, she, kind of like Arya, has been in training for this all along, and would probably be the best option.

I detest Cersei, and pretty much always have, both book and show.  Cersei being on the throne is the worst possible ending, and for that reason, in the books it may actually happen, but I doubt the show will go there.

Sansa has also been groomed, book and show, into possibly being a capable leader for Westeros.  However, she's all about the North.  With Tyrion by her side though, that would be a formidable pair, and quite possibly the best option for the peasants and other non-leader people of Westeros.  I can't see her leaving the North though, but I suppose it's possible Cersei does completely burn down Kings Landing or something, and the new capital of Westeros becomes Winterfell or Casterly Rock.

My most shocking ending, book or show, would be Jon sitting on the Iron Throne, or, if the throne is destroyed, ever leading Westeros.  Although Jon may be my favorite character, I don't think he's the leader type, and I think the fact that he already died once has future implications.

All that said?

I'm so thrilled we will finally have at least one ending to this saga!  I don't even care all that much what the ending will be, I'll try my best to accept it, and be grateful that there is a conclusion, ANY conclusion to all of those hours spent on the books.

Oh wait!  I take that back, if the damn Vikings (Euron etc) end up in charge I will probably be pissed.

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

What do they need the PtwP for? The Others are gone, there shouldn't be another Long Night. 

I really wonder about that as well.  Maybe we don't know all there is to know about the necessity of a NK?

Edited April 29, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[KungFuBunny]

There has been talk here about the dragon having 3 heads.

Danerys, Jon.

Why am I recalling from the books - that Tywin's wife was one of Aerys's lover? Could Tyrion be a Targaryen thereby being the 3rd dragon?

[LadyChaos]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Wait, I've been away for awhile, did GRRM actually TELL them who he plans to be on the throne?  I thought he got pretty snippy about them not waiting for him to finish his book, and clammed up?

From my understanding D&D have said that the ending will be roughly the same, but its how they get there that may or may not be different, and that they wouldn't tell anyone what changes were made. So, IMO, that would indicate that they at least know who will be on the throne, if there is one.

Edited April 29, 2019 by LadyChaos

[Wouter]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah, Tyrion is definitely in love with Sansa. That line about whoremongering no longer being an option was about her, not Dany. If we find out that Tyrion's been celibate this whole time because of Sansa, they are endgame for sure.

In A Dance with Dragons, there is this deliberately ambiguous line where Tyrion thinks that he misses his wife (the context does not make it very clear whether Tysha or Sansa is meant). I've always suspected it is Sansa he misses, and the way the show is going seems to make this more likely.

OTOH, there is also Friki's leaks to consider, we are still not sure if he was fooled by HBO or not. It would be a pity if that scene leads to the trial scene that Friki has described.

In the books, there is also the Tyrion as Aerys' bastard theory as a tantalising possibility, which has been downplayed in the show ever since Tyrion released Viserion and Rhaegal. If the clues in the books are not red herrings, it may yet touch on the outcome of the show, even though Tyrion never came close to riding a dragon in the show.

Winterfell survived. People were way to sure about the burning, just as they were almost sure that the Golden Company would attack at this point. Maybe it does so next episode, or maybe the fighting is all at KL.

Since this version of the NK is a show-only creation (most likely, the books may have something similar but nothing so far hints at that), the killing blow likely is a show-only creation as well.

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Cersei is not a satisfying death for Jon. Like who cares if Jon kills Cersei? That honor should go to Jaime or someone who has a bigger connection to her.

Only Tyrion, Jaime or the Stark sisters, work.

[GraceK]

23 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Dany is possible only because she's lost so much (Jorah, the Dothraki, most of the Unsullied) and was very frightened when she fell off Dragon (totally understandable). I can't recall the last time something scared Dany. Maybe she's just shook and goes on a downward spiral.

She was scared but that didn’t stop her from being willing to fight to the death with Jorah. She faced down death before in season 5, and when we first met her she lost her baby and her husband and walked into a pyre. We see her in the previews making a speech and sailing confidently into what appears to be Kings Landing. One thing she isn’t is a cowardly little wretch who will crumble into insanity with one fall off her dragon. 

At this point though, after all she has been through, and all she has done , if people she loves and trusts start plotting against her and try to murder her then I actually hope she does go fire and blood and show them what a TRUE Mad as hell Targaryen looks like . I hope she goes full villain then and takes out Sansa, Jon and Cersei and conquers Kings Landing and makes Greyworm her Lord Commander and Missendi Hand of the Queen . Why not? That would be a shocking ending .😂

Edited April 29, 2019 by GraceK

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, domina89 said:

I hate this idea, but what worries me are those early pics we got of Jon in King's Landing on that parapet with Cersei.  No one could figure out if they were real or just D & D screwing with the photographers, but both D & D (the writers) and one of the directors (David Nutter, I think, who is directing ep. 4) were there, which gives it legitimacy.

I had totally forgotten about that photo of Jon kneeling before Cersei. I remember we speculated that Sansa or someone was kidnapped and Jon went to bargain for her release or to convince her one last time to ally with them as the NK was heading their way or it was a hoax, especially since one of the crew was grinning in the background. 

I know anything is possible, but the Faceless men killing Jon secretly, taking his face, and then killing Dany sounds out there. How would they get to Jon? Maybe the Faceless men take the face of someone close to Dany. We saw Varys standing next to her in the preview. He is a good candidate. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

While I'm shocked that the NK is already dead and the main big bad so relatively easily disposed of?  I like the way it was handled, and I think it really fits, in all but the location of Winterfell.

Except, GRRM said the main villain will be human, The NK is a threat, but the main conflict will be human Vs human.

[Azi]

32 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

From my understanding D&D have said that the ending will be roughly the same, but its how they get there that may or may not be different, and that they wouldn't tell anyone what changes were made. So, IMO, that would indicate that they at least know who will be on the throne, if there is one.

Jup, he said it quite recently again, too. 

Unless ofc it's an old interview. But, well. He said it. He even calls the series quite faithful to the books (compared to other shows, but hey).

Not looking forward to the future debates he mentions about who did it better to be quite honest, cause the present ones are already unpleasant (not all of them of course)

Edited April 29, 2019 by Azi

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 Well, they did say 3-5 were a full story, beginning, middle, end. If the show goes Arya/NightKing, Dany/Cersei, Jon/Dany that could be it.

After 803 I can't see Tyrion betraying the Starks unless it's to save Dany. Maybe the point of that Tyrion/Sansa conversation was a hint. 

Assuming the Dany/Jon stuff is right (and I'm iffy). Then maybe Dany goes Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, the Starks/Jon/Alliance plan to put her down to save Kings Landing/Westeros. Tyrion betrays them, information Dany who kills everyone in Kings Landing?

It's a massive stretch because I just don't see Tyrion of 803 going there. Dany is possible only because she's lost so much (Jorah, the Dothraki, most of the Unsullied) and was very frightened when she fell off Dragon (totally understandable). I can't recall the last time something scared Dany. Maybe she's just shook and goes on a forward spiral.

If that's the case I'm guessing Jon just gives up, goes North of the Wall and lives a solitary existence free from war, violence, fighting, politics, etc

I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around Tyrion's betrayal. I can't figure out if the leakers just used the wrong word when it comes to what he does. Because whatever else, I think Tyrion and Dany both have good intentions and want to do the right thing. They just sometimes make bad choices. So I'm inclined to think they make some bad choices leading up to this alleged betrayal and the alleged Dance of the Dragons. 

If Dany is a villain, then the storyline reminds me of Buffy season 6, when the Nerds were the season-long fakeout bad guys but the real Big Bad was Willow. 

I was actually eager to move on from the battle, because as I said, duh, it's a battle and the good guys will win with a few losses, blah de blah. This is TV Writing 101. The only thing that makes GoT different is its massive budget. I am more eager to see Jon and Dany have an actual conversation, see how the Stark sisters react to Jon being their cousin, etc. These things are more important to me than battle death fire blood. 

(Now, that said, I really do want to see a daytime battle with Drogon vs. Rhaegal. The dragons were my favorite part of the Winterfell battle, other than Dany's hair not moving, I just love the effects, particularly the dragons flying above the clouds, Viserion's blue fire, the wights hanging off Drogon. It was really fucking cool.)

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Maybe the Faceless men take the face of someone close to Dany. We saw Varys standing next to her in the preview. He is a good candidate.

What if Tyrion was a faceless man all along? Oooo. :: puts on tinfoil hat:: what if after the screen cut in the meeting between Tyrion and Cersei in the season 7 finale a faceless man killed him and he’s been an imposter all along ? And that’s the third WTF moment 🤣🤣🤣

[magdalene]

I was dubious about the episode 3 leaks and my instincts were right as pretty much all those leaks were bull....

I don't believe any of the leaks claiming that Tyrion, Dany and/or Jon die. There is no way Benioff and Weiss will kill those characters.  I think there are people out there who get a perverse pleasure from tormenting fans of certain characters with made up death "spoilers".

Don't let them yank your chain.

The deaths coming are going to be much more predictable - Cersei. Jaime. Not happy about Jaime dying but I have resigned myself to that a long time ago.

Hopefully somebody will wipe that smug smirk from Euron's face before all is said and done.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

anyway, on a speculative point, anyone think Euron will still surprise us? Maybe he will marry Cersei and then take over Kings Landing.

Talking about Euron, what if he has the dragonbinder? It seems farfetched, but I am trying to think outside the box.

Edited April 29, 2019 by SimoneS

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around Tyrion's betrayal. I can't figure out if the leakers just used the wrong word when it comes to what he does. Because whatever else, I think Tyrion and Dany both have good intentions and want to do the right thing. They just sometimes make bad choices. So I'm inclined to think they make some bad choices leading up to this alleged betrayal and the alleged Dance of the Dragons. 

That's why I'm really iffy on all of it because Dany isn't Cersei. She's not awful or malicious or sadistic (for the most part, although, she's a little too quick on the Dracarys trigger, IMO). However, right now I just don't really see anything saying evil villain Dany. Plus we already have a Mad Queen, this would just be gratuitous.

I mean maybe she becomes super focused on the Throne? Maybe people find out about Jon's heritage and want him on the Iron Throne and she's tries to remove a threat?

I'm trying to piece all the spoilers together (Tyrion betrayal, Burnt Kings Landing, Tyrion walking with Jon through the ruins/Dead). It only lines up IMO if they go evil Dany. Yet, there's nothing in 801-803 that sets it up. Same with Tyrion. I don't see it and this show telegraphed alot in 801-802

Edited April 29, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[GraceK]

Two observations:: 

no one found it interesting that Ghost was fighting alongside Dothraki and Jorah and not northerners? Was he following Jon’s lead on that? He wasn’t even protecting Sam or anyone Jon seems tight with, but was fighting alongside Daenerys people . Oversight on the writers or is that a hint? ::cough cough :: Jon loves Dany

Also, when Jon was on Rhaegal fighting the NK who was on Viserion and  Viserion was biting the shit out of Rhaegal, Jon was screaming “ Stop!” And then Dany on Drogon comes in and Drogon attack’s Viserion in defense of his brother, and Dany is defending Jon. 

I bring that up because the Dragons are not only bonded to their mother, but they are also bonded to each other as siblings. Rhaegal is bonding with Jon yes, but what makes people honestly think that Drogon and Rhaegal will possibly fight each other??? Drogon literally came like a vengeful hell demon to help his brother , and as we see in the preview , Rhaegal is nuzzling Daenarys. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by GraceK

[LadyChaos]

10 minutes ago, Azi said:

Jup, he said it quite recently again, too. 

Unless ofc it's an old interview. But, well. He said it. He even calls the series quite faithful to the books (compared to other shows, but hey).

Not looking forward to the future debates he mentions about who did it better to be quite honest, cause the present ones are already unpleasant (not all of them of course)

He probably doesn't care because he makes more money the longer the fandom keeps the series in the front and center.  People will buy books to compare, people will start watching the series if they didn't before, or rewatch... all equals more money for him.

4 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I was dubious about the episode 3 leaks and my instincts were right as pretty much all those leaks were bull....

I don't believe any of the leaks claiming that Tyrion, Dany and/or Jon die. There is no way Benioff and Weiss will kill those characters.  I think there are people out there who get a perverse pleasure from tormenting fans of certain characters with made up death "spoilers".

Don't let them yank your chain.

The deaths coming are going to be much more predictable - Cersei. Jaime. Not happy about Jaime dying but I have resigned myself to that a long time ago.

Hopefully somebody will wipe that smug smirk from Euron's face before all is said and done.

Honestly, my first instinct is that Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, and Dany are safe and that everyone else if fair game; but we will see. 

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Jon was screaming “ Stop!”

Maybe that's when his balls got squished ?  LOL

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Maybe that's when his balls got squished ?  LOL

You win the day 😂

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Two observations:: 

no one found it interesting that Ghost was fighting alongside Dothraki and Jorah and not northerners? Was he following Jon’s lead on that? He wasn’t even protecting Sam or anyone Jon seems tight with, but was fighting alongside Daenerys people . Oversight on the writers or is that hint? 

Also, when Jon was on Rhaegal fighting the NK who was on Viserion and  Viserion was biting the shit out of Rhaegal, Jon was screaming “ Stop!” And then Dany on Drogon comes in and Drogon attack’s Viserion in defense of his brother, and Dany is defending Jon. 

I bring that up because the Dragons are not only bonded to their mother, but they are also bonded to each other as siblings. Rhaegal is bonding with Jon yes, but what makes people honestly think that Drogon and Rhaegal will possibly fight each other??? Drogon literally came like a vengeful hell demon to help his brother , and as we see in the preview , Rhaegal is nuzzling Daenarys. 

Honestly, Im ignoring the Ghost 2 second blip because it was probably just shoved in there by D&D to stop people from complaining about not seeing Ghost, but keeping the CGI budget down.

It will be interesting to see what happens.  Jon is bonding with Rhaegal, and Drogon clearly senses something in Jon......I wonder if we won't get a dance of dragons (more than we already have) but a moment where the dragons have to choose their loyalty, or choose not interfere between a fight between Dany and Jon.... Like Dany or Jon go to use them, and they knock them off.  Although, I honestly think the Dragons will die before a Dany vs Jon scene would happen.  Also, not to be that person, but if Dany's dragons do die, I wonder who much support she might loose?

[Minneapple]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's why I'm really iffy on all of it because Dany isn't Cersei. She's not awful or malicious or sadistic (for the most part, although, she's a little too quick on the Dracarys trigger, IMO). However, right now I just don't really see anything saying evil villain Dany. Plus we already have a Mad Queen, this would just be gratuitous.

 I mean maybe she becomes super focused on the Throne? Maybe people find out about Jon's heritage and want him on the Iron Throne and she's tries to remove a threat?

 I'm trying to piece all the spoilers together (Tyrion betrayal, Burnt Kings Landing, Tyrion walking with Jon through the ruins/Dead).

It only lines up IMO if they go evil Dany. Yet, there's nothing in 801-803 that sets it up. Same with Tyrion. I don't see it and this show telegraphed alot in 801-802

I think it's entirely possible that she starts mentally tallying up her losses and gets hyper-focused on the throne as a way to compensate for those losses. Her child, Drogo, Viserion, Jorah, the entire Dothraki horde. She's finding out her dragons don't make her invincible. Plus, you know, there's the whole thing with Jon being a Targaryen and her nephew (I just really want them to have an actual conversation, is that too much to ask). So her mental state is probably not that great right now.

So this is why it reminds me of Willow in Buffy. Willow went Big Bad, yes, but she was still a protagonist and there was a palpable reason for why she became a villain. 

[tangerine95]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's why I'm really iffy on all of it because Dany isn't Cersei. She's not awful or malicious or sadistic (for the most part, although, she's a little too quick on the Dracarys trigger, IMO). However, right now I just don't really see anything saying evil villain Dany. Plus we already have a Mad Queen, this would just be gratuitous.

I mean maybe she becomes super focused on the Throne? Maybe people find out about Jon's heritage and want him on the Iron Throne and she's tries to remove a threat?

I'm trying to piece all the spoilers together (Tyrion betrayal, Burnt Kings Landing, Tyrion walking with Jon through the ruins/Dead). It only lines up IMO if they go evil Dany. Yet, there's nothing in 801-803 that sets it up. Same with Tyrion. I don't see it and this show telegraphed alot in 801-802

That's my thing as well.I just don't see it.Plus that would very likely mean two mad queens who get killed by their lovers who are related to them lol.Seems a bit much to me I guess.

I do think the show has been teasing Mad Queen Dany in the sense that you have Sam and Sansa doubting and hating her.But her actual actions don't support the narrative tho.With Tyrion I can see hints of possible betrayal mostly in the fact that he still think Cersei is pregnant and Sansa saying that line about his divided loyalties.I think on both we'll get to see where its going next episode when Dany is dealing with Jon's parentage and Tyrion is faced with that Dany is back at war against Cersei.Jaime also may be a factor there imo because despite fighting at WF,I'm not sure he's actually over Cersei and I think he'd want to protect his kid for sure.While Dany seems pretty done with giving Cersei any chances anymore. 

[Umbelina]

I really think Beric's death was an important clue to Jon's fate.

Beric saved Arya twice now (right?) and Arya was the one to kill the NK.  So Beric kept being brought back alive for a reason and it looks like that reason was, at least in part, Arya being able to kill the NK.

The Lord of Light also brought back Jon, presumably for a reason, which makes me think Jon will be alive only until he fulfills his purpose. 

I do think that will happen on screen, Jon will die, after performing some very important thing.

[Morrigan2575]

45 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I think it's entirely possible that she starts mentally tallying up her losses and gets hyper-focused on the throne as a way to compensate for those losses. Her child, Drogo, Viserion, Jorah, the entire Dothraki horde. She's finding out her dragons don't make her invincible. Plus, you know, there's the whole thing with Jon being a Targaryen and her nephew (I just really want them to have an actual conversation, is that too much to ask). So her mental state is probably not that great right now.

So this is why it reminds me of Willow in Buffy. Willow went Big Bad, yes, but she was still a protagonist and there was a palpable reason for why she became a villain. 

By that logic losing another Dragon (especially to Cersei) could send her over the edge

54 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Also, not to be that person, but if Dany's dragons do die, I wonder who much support she might loose?

All of it. She doesn't have anything left. The Dothraki are dead, the Unsullied were massively depleted if not wiped out. Without her Dragons she has whatever the North sends with her (which can't be much) and Yara's ships.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

All of it. She doesn't have anything left. The Dothraki are dead, the Unsullied were massively depleted if not wiped out. Without her Dragons she has whatever the North sends with her (which can't be much) and Yara's ships.

Which would shift to Jon, for the throne, because he is from the North, and they would want a Northerner on the throne....with the hope that they would get their freedom back.

[ShellsandCheese]

From a story and plot perspective, it just doesn’t make sense this late in the game (with less than four hours left) to have Dany turn out to be the big bad. Especially, when it’s clear as day that Cersei is the big bad. If Jon kills Dany it will only be for shock value and I don’t see how it adds to the plot; unless he has to kill Dany (i.e. shove a sword in her to kill someone behind her).

I would be disappointed if that was the ending because it just doesn’t jive with what we’ve seen so far of either Jon or Dany. And it’s consistent with their character development. I still think the scene in 8.1 was foreshadowing and that Jon and Dany go off on their dragons somewhere never to return after installing some sort of council to collectively rule the 7 kingdoms. Actually, I could see something like the commonwealth where their is a figurative head and a standard set of rules / laws and treaties but for the most part, everyone rules themselves. 

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

From a story and plot perspective, it just doesn’t make sense this late in the game (with less than four hours left) to have Dany turn out to be the big bad. Especially, when it’s clear as day that Cersei is the big bad. If Jon kills Dany it will only be for shock value and I don’t see how it adds to the plot;

Exactly. We literally have two villains in Kings Landing already. And also, he couldn’t even bring himself to harm Ygritte, who shot arrows into him, and was actually slaughtering villages and fought with a wildling army against him and killed his “ brothers “. He was still nuts about her. So Jon really doesn’t mind morally compromised Warrior women 😂😂😂😂

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Only Tyrion, Jaime or the Stark sisters, work.

The Starks sisters don’t work because they’ve had their big deaths: Ramsay and The NK. 

But even before that, the Starks as whole didn’t work. It has always been about Jaime and Tyrion.

Now just a few things:

Am I the only one who thinks Cersei is lying and she is not pregnant at all?

I don’t know about all that “people want Dany to fail”. Maybe here or over other boards, but the regular viewer, the one who cannot name the Northern lords apart Lyanna, don’t have that mentality. Normal folks are all “Dany and Jon are he heros. I don’t know a single person who things Cersei is better in any shape or form than Dany.

Tyrion is in love with Sansa? What? How come? 

The last thing I want to see in this show is Jon killing Dany. Sorry but they don’t deserve this. Yes they have faults, but they are very decent people with good intentions. Dany deserves to live and be happy and Jok deserves to not carry this guilty on top of everything else.

This said they’ve been hitting for ages that Dany may go Mad King. Buuuuut, if she is pregnant would they make Jon kill her?

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The Starks sisters don’t work because they’ve had their big deaths: Ramsay and The NK. 

They still work, especially Sansa, she was directly verbally , physically and ( like Arya ) psychologically affected by Cersei.

Doesn't mean they get her, but from a book / show perspective yeah they work, especially Sansa.

But it looks like at least Sansa will be in Winterfell for a while.

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The Starks sisters don’t work because they’ve had their big deaths: Ramsay and The NK. 

I still think Sansa has a meeting with Cersei coming. Maybe the Stark sisters will meet her together.

Am I the only one who thinks Cersei is lying and she is not pregnant at all?

I think she had an offscreen miscarriage. The wine drinking was a giveaway that she's not pregnant. I know, Ye Olde Tyme and all, but a woman drinking on TV in any time period is TV Writing 101 that she's not pregnant.

I don’t know all that “people want Dany to fail”. Maybe here or over other boards, but the regular viewer, the one who cannot name the Northern lords apart Lyanna, don’t have that mentality. Normal folks are all “Dany and Jon are he heros. I don’t know a single person who things Cersei is better in any shape or form than Dany.

Maybe a few crazy people want Dany to fail, but for the most part we don't want her to fail or be evil, we're just discussing it as a possibility. And really...nobody thinks Cersei is better than Dany. 

[anamika]

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Exactly. We literally have two villains in Kings Landing already. And also, he couldn’t even bring himself to harm Ygritte, who shot arrows into him, and was actually slaughtering villages and fought with a wildling army against him and killed his “ brothers “. He was still nuts about her. So Jon really doesn’t mind morally compromised Warrior women 😂😂😂😂

I will let Benioff explain it to you:

" We hope to avoid the expected. Jon Snow has always been the hero. The one who has always been the savior but it just did not sit right with us for this moment"

We will build up this character with this whole AOTD story and several prophecies and all that and in the end use Arya because it's unexpected and felt right to us.

As for why the characters come up with their terrible plans like the one that wipes out Dany's entire Dothraki cavalry?

Benioff:

"We thought it important  that whatever the plan was that it should not just work out. Because that would be kinda dull"

The more I think about episode 3, the more I realize how terribly written it was. No surprise, nothing. I recall feeling more sad at Karsi's death in Hardhome than Lyanna and even Theon and Jorah - because it was so cliche and expected at this point. I think we were more blood thirsty than the show and expected more characters to die.

Jaime fighting off hundreds of wights with one hand while the Dothraki are slaughtered. What a joke.  Like what is even the point of Bran?

I mean, book readers think about this. This threat that has been build up from the first chapter, first scene of the show - and the deaths are Theon and Jorah.

It would have actually given more weight to this threat, if they actually killed Jon here. The Others and Jon kill each other. Finish off Jon's story and show what this threat was. And then focus on Dany Vs Cersei for the latter half.

Watch as we get three episodes of Cersei's smug smile as all her evil plans succeed till the very end and Jon/Dany do stupid things and Dany does a 180 and becomes evil - because it's unexpected - and Jon waves his sword around and kills lots of red shirts and stands around looking gormless, Sansa bitches about Northern independence, Arya takes faces and kills people and Tyrion drinks, smirks and makes witty remarks.

[Raachel2008]

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

They still work, especially Sansa, she was directly verbally , physically and ( like Arya ) psychologically affected by Cersei.

I trully understand wanting a fave to kill the big baddie, but Sansa and Arya had their big kills. There is no way Arya kills both the NK and Cersei. Sansa won’t kill Cersei either. Both in the books and the series it is  clear Cersei is going to be killed by either Jaime or Tyrion, though I could see a talented writer subverting everything and having a nobody killing her.

[glowbug]

Ugh. I hate not having legitimate spoilers. If Dany turns out to be the ultimate antagonist I’d like to know that ahead of time to prepare myself. I’d rather Jon or Dany sacrifice themselves for the other than have them end up on opposite teams. I want to know how Dany’s pregnancy fits into this theory. I still think that’s happening and if it doesn’t it will be Chekov’s gun not being fired. 

I feel like Arya killing the Night King should have been set up better. I actually like the idea of her killing him and how she did it with the slight of hand, but there wasn’t enough foreshadowing before this episode. Plus, I feel like Jon should have played a bigger role in taking down the Night King. The majority of his storyline has been about the White Walker threat, and there needed to be some payoff for those staredowns with the Night King. There’s also the whole PTWP/Azor Ahai stuff. If it ends up not meaning anything (as in they never mention it again when the title of the book series is literally named after the prophecy of the PTWP) that would be bad writing. 

[Raachel2008]

12 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Maybe a few crazy people want Dany to fail, but for the most part we don't want her to fail or be evil, we're just discussing it as a possibility. And really...nobody thinks Cersei is better than Dany

Well, all I read here is that “people hate Dany, they want her to be wrong, they want her to suffer, they want white males to prevail”, or whatever the line of the day, and I just don’t think it is really like there.

[SeanC]

It looks like there are some funereal burnings next week.  Be interested to see if Alfie Allen, Iain Glen or Bella Ramsey get that corpse money, which would also conveniently push any of those that do to the four episode count necessary to count for the SAG ensemble nomination roster.

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

The more I think about episode 3, the more I realize how terribly written it was. No surprise, nothing. I recall feeling more sad at Karsi's death in Hardhome than Lyanna and even Theon and Jorah - because it was so cliche and expected at this point. I think we were more blood thirsty than the show and expected more characters to die.

I think the first 15-20 minutes were some of the best of the show because of all that anticipation, the sense that some were being sent to death and they knew it. The impending doom. Then everything went South with people being surrounded by 20-30 whights and surviving - and you mentioned Jaime but at least he was teaming with Brienne and even with one hand he is a benter swordsman  than most. Now Sam? I was almost throwing things at my TV.

Lyanna’s death really got me though. I really wasn’t expecting it and when the giant started crushing her it was like a punch in the gut. She was so young and had so much potential, the whole what could have been - though it could be argued that she reached her full potential killing the giant. Probably the death I felt the most after Ned and Ygritte.

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It looks like there are some funereal burnings next week.  Be interested to see if Alfie Allen, Iain Glen or Bella Ramsey get that corpse money, which would also conveniently push any of those that do to the four episode count necessary to count for the SAG ensemble nomination roster.

I hope so, because those characters deserve one last praise.

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

I will let Benioff explain it to you:

" We hope to avoid the expected. Jon Snow has always been the hero. The one who has always been the savior but it just did not sit right with us for this moment"

We will build up this character with this whole AOTD story and several prophecies and all that and in the end use Arya because it's unexpected and felt right to us.

As for why the characters come up with their terrible plans like the one that wipes out Dany's entire Dothraki cavalry?

Benioff:

"We thought it important  that whatever the plan was that it should not just work out. Because that would be kinda dull"

The more I think about episode 3, the more I realize how terribly written it was. No surprise, nothing. I recall feeling more sad at Karsi's death in Hardhome than Lyanna and even Theon and Jorah - because it was so cliche and expected at this point. I think we were more blood thirsty than the show and expected more characters to die.

Jaime fighting off hundreds of wights with one hand while the Dothraki are slaughtered. What a joke.  Like what is even the point of Bran?

I mean, book readers think about this. This threat that has been build up from the first chapter, first scene of the show - and the deaths are Theon and Jorah.

It would have actually given more weight to this threat, if they actually killed Jon here. The Others and Jon kill each other. Finish off Jon's story and show what this threat was. And then focus on Dany Vs Cersei for the latter half.

Watch as we get three episodes of Cersei's smug smile as all her evil plans succeed till the very end and Jon/Dany do stupid things and Dany does a 180 and becomes evil - because it's unexpected - and Jon waves his sword around and kills lots of red shirts and stands around looking gormless, Sansa bitches about Northern independence, Arya takes faces and kills people and Tyrion drinks, smirks and makes witty remarks.

This is extremely disheartening 

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I feel like Arya killing the Night King should have been set up better. I actually like the idea of her killing him and how she did it with the slight of hand, but there wasn’t enough foreshadowing before this episode.

They could have had a scene with Jon and Arya discussing the NK and WW and his experiences with them. Tied Arya and this plot a little closer. Bryan Cogman wrote in all these scenes of Jaime and Tyrion walking around WF and chatting/bonding, but he apparently could not spare a couple of minutes for Jon and Arya.

I do think Arya will play a large role in taking out the Others in the books. The original outline and the books hint at this. Jon, Bran and Arya all have large elements of magic in their story and Arya's plot is closely connected to the North.  Jon's - 'Stick them with the pointy end' to Arya is an important line and I think Arya using either an arrow or Valyrian sword to take out the Others will happen in the books as well. In the outline, she uses needle.

Just the way it was done on the show came out of nowhere, but that seems to be what D&D want at this point - unexpected.

13 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Then everything went South with people being surrounded by 20-30 whights and surviving - and you mentioned Jaime but at least he was teaming with Brienne and even with one hand he is a benter swordsman  than most.

Actually, if you watch, it was Jaime who was helping out Brienne most of the time. Brienne got swarmed by wights and Jaime pulls them off and kills them. Same thing inside WF, Jaime kills some wights and saves her.

At this point, they should have let Sansa shank a few wights with her dragon glass dagger.  Would have been as realistic as Jaime and Sam surviving out there.

Edited April 30, 2019 by anamika

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I feel like Arya killing the Night King should have been set up better. I actually like the idea of her killing him and how she did it with the slight of hand, but there wasn’t enough foreshadowing before this episode. Plus, I feel like Jon should have played a bigger role in taking down the Night King. The majority of his storyline has been about the White Walker threat, and there needed to be some payoff for those staredowns with the Night King. There’s also the whole PTWP/Azor Ahai stuff. If it ends up not meaning anything (as in they never mention it again when the title of the book series is literally named after the prophecy of the PTWP) that would be bad writing. 

I DO think it was foreshadowed that Arya would kill the NK, certainly in the books, and in many ways in the show as well.  She's the one with the real killing training and I really don't think she's going to kill Cersei, and the connection with Bran and her fascination with Valerian Steel swords...it all worked for me.

I really think that Beric dying was a huge clue to Jon's death, and yes, I do think he will die, one way or another.  He has another purpose, and once that is fulfilled, he will die, just like Beric.

I can't imagine the PTWP is going to be dropped.  If it is, then I agree, terrible writing, but I don't think they will.

Is it Jon?  Is it Dany's baby from Jon?  Promised to whom?  The country or as a new NK? 

The prophesies are interesting to me too.

Snow on the throne? 

Baby brother killing Cersei?  I think it has to be true, but is it her own baby that kills her?  It could still be Tyrion, especially since he didn't seem to enjoy being left out of the events during this battle.  Jamie makes sense as well, although he is the most obvious choice, especially if the Kingslayer becomes the Queenslayer for the exact same reasons.

PTWP?  Maybe it combines with the prophesy that Dany will never have children: "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, when your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child."  Maybe both of these prophesies combine?  Dany does have a baby, but it's promised in order to become the new NK, so she doesn't have a living child, but one destined to be dead?

Or, the whole Winter threat is now over forever?  If so, I wish they had something to explain the whole reason why the Children created them to begin with.

Lots of ways to go, and hopefully, it's not all battles and battle prep through to the end.

I'm also wondering about all the religions, it would seem that they should probably wrap those up in some ways.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Umbelina
or, not of

[LadyChaos]

Some things that Im hoping for next week:

Gendry and Arya talk about what happened.

Dany and Jon have a convo about him being a Targ

Jon actually giving Ghost some much needed love and attention so it actually appears he gives a shit about him still.

[anamika]

Bran/3ER and the NK looking at each other. Maybe the 3ER's motives in all this is not exactly innocent?

Bran mentioned he needed Jaime to be alive. Surely not to just take down some wights while one handed? If Bran wants Jaime alive to take down Cersei, why is this important to the 3ER?  To destroy the Iron Throne? To put Jon on the Iron Throne? For the victory of the Starks? Why would the 3ER or someone like Bloodraven in the books want that?

15 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Jon actually giving Ghost some much needed love and attention so it actually appears he gives a shit about him still.

I don't think the actors even know that Ghost is around. I think they just CGI him into scenes separately and leave it at that.

On the plus side, he makes it till the end and fans can play a 'where's waldo' sort of game trying to spot him in scenes.

Edited April 30, 2019 by anamika

[DarkRaichu]

Hmm I think I figure out endings that are sweet and full of fan service (blech) ...  These can be its own cutscene a la Lord of the Rings endings

- Somebody kills Cersei (does not matter who)

- Dany is Queen at KL, Tyrion as Hand, and Missandei as advisor, plus Greyworm her general.  From time to time they get to vacation to Missandei's home city, leaving Tyrion in charge of KL

- Sansa is Queen/Warden of the North with Brianne by her side.  Jamie and Tormund are there too to help rebuild the North + continue the love triangle

- The Hound and Mountain kill each other

- Varys and Arya open a spy/assassin network to keep 7 kingdoms at peace behind the scene, with some tips from Tyrion

- Sam becomes the ArchMeister at the Citadel and writes a history book called Song of Ice and Fire

- Bronn takes over as the head of Iron Bank at Braavos

- Pod is knight lord of Highgarden

- Jon and Davos rebuild the wall and Nightwatch with Tormund / wldlings joining. 1 of the dragon is with Jon so he and Dany can meet at that waterfall by the ice mountain

- Upon defeat, Euron flees to Iron islands only to be killed by Yara

- Gendry runs the best armory at KL

- Hot Pie keeps baking pies 

- Somebody (Qyburn?) stabs the dead Cersei with Dragonstone (+old enchantments) turning her to Night Queen.  She escapes north of the wall planning her revenge.  Jon caught wind of this, thus rebuild wall + Nightwatch and keep repeating "Winter is coming" every other sentences

- Bran goes up north of the wall as well, digs a hole, and waits for the next 3ER to challenge the new Night Queen

Did I miss anyone??

[ShellsandCheese]

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Hmm I think I figure out endings that are sweet and full of fan service (blech) ...  These can be its own cutscene a la Lord of the Rings endings

- Somebody kills Cersei (does not matter who)

- Dany is Queen at KL, Tyrion as Hand, and Missandei as advisor, plus Greyworm her general.  From time to time they get to vacation to Missandei's home city, leaving Tyrion in charge of KL

- Sansa is Queen/Warden of the North with Brianne by her side.  Jamie and Tormund are there too to help rebuild the North + continue the love triangle

- The Hound and Mountain kill each other

- Varys and Arya open a spy/assassin network to keep 7 kingdoms at peace behind the scene, with some tips from Tyrion

- Sam becomes the ArchMeister at the Citadel and writes a history book called Song of Ice and Fire

- Bronn takes over as the head of Iron Bank at Braavos

- Pod is knight lord of Highgarden

- Jon and Davos rebuild the wall and Nightwatch with Tormund / wldlings joining. 1 of the dragon is with Jon so he and Dany can meet at that waterfall by the ice mountain

- Upon defeat, Euron flees to Iron islands only to be killed by Yara

- Gendry runs the best armory at KL

- Hot Pie keeps baking pies 

- Somebody (Qyburn?) stabs the dead Cersei with Dragonstone (+old enchantments) turning her to Night Queen.  She escapes north of the wall planning her revenge.  Jon caught wind of this, thus rebuild wall + Nightwatch and keep repeating "Winter is coming" every other sentences

- Bran goes up north of the wall as well, digs a hole, and waits for the next 3ER to challenge the new Night Queen

Did I miss anyone??

LOL. I really hope the ending is not that Pollyanna. But what if we've been misunderstanding the prophecies. What if the AOTD was just a red herring and Cersei was the one who was going to bring an endless night (figuratively) all along. She could be the ice, because that woman is ice cold, lol. 

[nikma]

I don't think that Jaime will kill Cersei. They didn't want Jon to kill the NK, and Jaime killing Cersei is the most popular book theory after r+l=j.

But Sansa killing LF was popular as well and that did happen, so who knows.

I could see Sansa killing Cersei. And Cersei killing Jaime.

Euron will be killed by either Jaime or Cersei IMO. Maaaaybe Yara. Not sure.

[LadyChaos]

24 minutes ago, anamika said:

On the plus side, he makes it till the end and fans can play a 'where's waldo' sort of game trying to spot him in scenes.

New drinking game?

[MarySNJ]

19 minutes ago, nikma said:

I don't think that Jaime will kill Cersei. They didn't want Jon to kill the NK, and Jaime killing Cersei is the most popular book theory after r+l=j.

But Sansa killing LF was popular as well and that did happen, so who knows.

I could see Sansa killing Cersei. And Cersei killing Jaime.

Euron will be killed by either Jaime or Cersei IMO. Maaaaybe Yara. Not sure.

I don't think they've translated valonqar as your little brother - just "little brother", and I note that Euron is a little brother. So are Jon/Aegon, Bran and Sandor in addition to Jaime and Tyrion. What if we learn later that valonqar is not a gendered word in Valyrian (like prince/princess)? Then maybe it could be translated as little sibling, which adds Sansa, Arya and Dany, among others. 

Jaime seems like the most likely candidate, but I doubt he would murder Cersei if she's pregnant with his child. Tyrion seemed to be sincere when he said he loved Myrcella and Tommen and I don't know that he could bring himself to kill pregnant Cersei either. So, either Cersei is not really pregnant, has a miscarriage, is killed by someone who doesn't give a shit that she's pregnant with Jaime's child (Euron?) or the valonqar will not factor into the show. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by MarySNJ

[anamika]

Again, if Jaime does not kill Cersei then what is behind that strange conversation between Bran and him? Bran made it seem like he needed Jaime alive for some higher purpose rather. I can't see what else it can be other than Cersei at this point...

Or maybe it has to do with Bran himself in some way.

NCW saying that it's like some murder mystery that comes together at the end, may have to do Bran.