Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Jextella said:

Bran is the logical choice to rule given his skill set.  

How?  I don’t disagree that it would be useful for a ruler to see and know everything, but Bran seems almost completely detached from human affairs.  I’d want him around, but I struggle to see why anybody would put him in charge.

Though with the Night King defeated, I’m not sure what Bran is meant to be spending his time on now.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I thought that, but Harry Strickland's filming time was in December (interior scenes with Cersei in the throne room, I think), May and June, which sounds like KL-only stuff. WIth that said, 8x04 did have a violence warning, so it's not going to be all toasts and speeches. Isaac also made it sound as if the last four episodes are a big rollercoaster ride, so any reflecting, ruminating and speechifying in 8x04 will be of short duration.

I find it hard to believe that D&D would pass up the opportunity for one last confrontation between Sansa and Cersei, but it really doesn't make any sense for Sansa to leave Winterfell. I think 8x05 is the KL equivalent of the 8x03 Winterfell battle--more or less nonstop action--so it seems possible that Sansa will skip 8x05 and appear again in the epilogue. I'm still waiting on that scale dress, which didn't appear in the 8x04 promo.

Strickland is also in only two episodes, per the casting notice, so if he’s in the 805 battle we won’t see him making any big surprise moves.

God knows that this wouldn’t stop the writers from shoving two characters into a scene together, but I don’t really see what a Sansa/Cersei confrontation would even amount to, narratively, at this point.

This is usually postulated as a means of showing that Sansa now has the upper hand or whatever, but the resolution of the Cersei plot line is fundamentally a military question at this point, not a political/diplomatic one (this being Sansa’s alleged if seldom-seen skillset).  The notional contribution a character like Sansa could make would be undermining Cersei’s political support/alliances, but TV Cersei doesn’t really have any of those, and there’s no real “neutral” setting where they could play the game against each other (ie, they’re in different camps, not jostling for power in the same camp).  Cersei’s only supporters at this point are some paid mercenaries and an evil pirate.  The endgame is storming King’s Landing to oust Cersei.

I imagine that whatever role Sansa has in the remaining episodes is focused on the internal dynamics of the Stargaryen camp.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SeanC

[cambridgeguy]

24 minutes ago, SeanC said:

This is usually postulated as a means of showing that Sansa now has the upper hand or whatever, but the resolution of the Cersei plot line is fundamentally a military question at this point, not a political/diplomatic one (this being Sansa’s alleged if seldom-seen skillset).  The notional contribution a character like Sansa could make would be undermining Cersei’s political support/alliances, but TV Cersei doesn’t really have any of those, and there’s no real “neutral” setting where they could play the game against each other (ie, they’re in different camps, not jostling for power in the same camp).  Cersei’s only supporters at this point are some paid mercenaries and an evil pirate.  The endgame is storming King’s Landing to oust Cersei.

Which begs the (likely ignored) question of what's left.  Most of the Northern army and a decent chunk of the Vale army are dead.  What happened to the troops in the Riverlands after Arya killed the Freys? How much of the Lannister army is left?  How about the Reach, or the Stormlands, or Dorne?  Have all of them been wiped out?

Regardless, I do think Dany's forces are down to some of the Unsullied and two dragons.  I don't think there are enough Unsullied left to take KL by themselves, especially with the GC around.  The dragons are an all or nothing weapon (it'd be like arming your soldiers with nothing but grenades) so without reinforcements she won't be able to take KL without deploying them - cue burning, mass destruction, etc.

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

He was. He admitted as much to Cersei - that the only reason she was still alive was because of him holding back Dany.

You think Cersei is not going to fuck with the North?

Jon bend the knee to Dany. He is allied with her. Dany saved Jon's life last season and loves him. I doubt she sees him as a threat that needs to be taken out.

Arya now thinks that Sansa is the smartest ever and warned Jon in episode one that it's all about the Starks now and he better remember that or else!

He admitted to stopping danny from killing her for that particular battle, not the whole battle.

Maybe eventually, but it's not on her current priorities.

She also just found out he's the rightful heir to the throne and he's been acting weird to her for the past two episodes. Politically, that's a nightmare if it gets out.  Now the obvious choice would be to marry him, but I don't believe she wants to be forced into such things anymore. 

If Jon and Sansa went to war ( which I doubt but for the sake of argument), Arya would almost certainly back Jon. Jon's motives are clear as glass at all times. Sansa's? not so much

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

How?  I don’t disagree that it would be useful for a ruler to see and know everything, but Bran seems almost completely detached from human affairs.  I’d want him around, but I struggle to see why anybody would put him in charge.

Though with the Night King defeated, I’m not sure what Bran is meant to be spending his time on now.

Strickland is also in only two episodes, per the casting notice, so if he’s in the 805 battle we won’t see him making any big surprise moves.

God knows that this wouldn’t stop the writers from shoving two characters into a scene together, but I don’t really see what a Sansa/Cersei confrontation would even amount to, narratively, at this point.

This is usually postulated as a means of showing that Sansa now has the upper hand or whatever, but the resolution of the Cersei plot line is fundamentally a military question at this point, not a political/diplomatic one (this being Sansa’s alleged if seldom-seen skillset).  The notional contribution a character like Sansa could make would be undermining Cersei’s political support/alliances, but TV Cersei doesn’t really have any of those, and there’s no real “neutral” setting where they could play the game against each other (ie, they’re in different camps, not jostling for power in the same camp).  Cersei’s only supporters at this point are some paid mercenaries and an evil pirate.  The endgame is storming King’s Landing to oust Cersei.

I imagine that whatever role Sansa has in the remaining episodes is focused on the internal dynamics of the Stargaryen camp.

Bran by himself, nah. King Bran as an absentee king that uses his powers to help with Sansa as the one actually ruling though, that would work. 

[MarySNJ]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

He admitted to stopping danny from killing her for that particular battle, not the whole battle.

Maybe eventually, but it's not on her current priorities.

She also just found out he's the rightful heir to the throne and he's been acting weird to her for the past two episodes. Politically, that's a nightmare if it gets out.  Now the obvious choice would be to marry him, but I don't believe she wants to be forced into such things anymore. 

If Jon and Sansa went to war ( which I doubt but for the sake of argument), Arya would almost certainly back Jon. Jon's motives are clear as glass at all times. Sansa's? not so much

I’m not so sure that Daenerys would object to a “political” marriage to Jon, whether the truth of his parentage becomes public knowledge (beyond the family and close associates) or not. She left Daario behind because she knew she’d need to make a marriage alliance in Westeros. Jon would be the best candidate left, even if the general populous believes he’s Ned’s bastard, because he was elected the leader of the North by acclamation and he’s not a frigging pirate who allied himself with Cersei when he couldn’t get to Dany. The fact that Jon and Dany happen to love each other is the cherry on the sundae. 

I can’t see why Jon would go to war against Sansa either but I do think family relations will be strained for a while and I think the question is, what will Arya do? My guess is, now that the North is safe, she’ll put her skills to work against the last couple names on her list. 

[Eyes High]

Speaking of weddings, at Freefolk someone spotted some flowers on one of the tables in the hall scene where a toasting Dany is being cheered by the Northerners and noted that there were also flowers on the tables at Joffrey and Margaery weddings. (Westerosi: they're just like us!) Maybe the Dany scene is a wedding? And if so, who's getting married?

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

“Bran is the logical choice to rule given his skill set.”

Actually Bran is the last logical choice because he is a crippled and most likely can’t have children. And if he cannot have an heir and secure a lineage then they are just waiting for the next ambitious lord to start his own claim of the thins (FWIW, only 10% of men with an spinal cord injury can have an erection and only a very small part of those have viable sperm). 

I’m absolutely pissed of with those spoilers. So this is it? Jon and Dany, who have always tried to do what is right, end like that? He kills her and exiles himself in the far North (this is my interpretation of the Night Watch stuff). Dany goes mad but cannot  snap out of it? She, from all people, cannot see her mistakes or how she is repeating her father’s path?? Jon has to live knowing he killed the woman he loves? Two of the best people in this show - arguably the best - end like this? Fuck this. Fuck this a billion times.

Also, I cannot be the only one thinking that if this is true, then Bran is the real villain there and planned it all along? That would explain why he would keep Tyrion in his council, since he planned it all?

ETA: Edited because I fucked up using quotes and then fucked up again trying to fix it.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Raachel2008

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I’m absolutely pissed of with those spoilers. So this is it? Jon and Dany, who have always tried to do what is right, end like that? He kills her and exiles himself in the far North (this is my interpretation of the Night Watch stuff). Dany goes mad but cannot  snap out of it? She, from all people, cannot see her mistakes or how she is repeating her father’s path?? Jon has to live knowing he killed the woman he loves? Two of the best people in this show - arguably the best - end like this? Fuck this. Fuck this a billion times.

Well, you know sacrifice everything for the greater good, get rewarded with a sword to the gut, permanent exile and mental torture forever.

What a twist! No one will expect it!

The last episode has gone down so badly for me, and coupled with these spoilers, I've actually pulled the plug on HBO.

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Well, you know sacrifice everything for the greater good, get rewarded with a sword to the gut, permanent exile and mental torture forever.

What a twist! No one will expect it!

The last episode has gone down so badly for me, and coupled with these spoilers, I've actually pulled the plug on HBO.

So so so pissed.

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I’m absolutely pissed of with those spoilers. So this is it? Jon and Dany, who have always tried to do what is right, end like that? He kills her and exiles himself in the far North (this is my interpretation of the Night Watch stuff). Dany goes mad but cannot  snap out of it? She, from all people, cannot see her mistakes or how she is repeating her father’s path?? Jon has to live knowing he killed the woman he loves? Two of the best people in this show - arguably the best - end like this? Fuck this. Fuck this a billion times.

Well we don't know for sure. There are a few leaks and hints that say Jon kills Dany but they could be fake or misleading or inaccurate. Nothing has been confirmed yet. 

Does anyone know if we have pictures for 8x04 yet?

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well we don't know for sure. There are a few leaks and hints that say Jon kills Dany but they could be fake or misleading or inaccurate. Nothing has been confirmed yet. 

Does anyone know if we have pictures for 8x04 yet?

Correct I’m wrong but didn’t people found old posts in reddit where people spoiled correctly that Arya would kill the Night King and the same person said Jon kills Dany? How would they spoil one true fact and lie about other?

[Minneapple]

4 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Correct I’m wrong but didn’t people found old posts in reddit where people spoiled correctly that Arya would kill the Night King and the same person said Jon kills Dany? How would they spoil one true fact and lie about other?

The person did indeed correctly spoil that Arya would kill the Night King. But their information about Jon killing Dany is shaky. It comes secondhand from a friend of theirs who was filming on the King's Landing set, and the person said first that Jon kills Cersei, then changed it to Dany.

ETA -- on the last page I posted a link to Freefolk that rounds up all the information about Jon possibly killing Dany into one post. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Minneapple

[nikma]

Tbh I think Dany's death could be really popular among casuals. I feel they really hate her. Sometimes even more than Cersei.

I met only one person in real life that likes her.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

I still don't believe it and think that it was at best any of the fake endings they talked about. But the only reason I can give is that IMO the storyline isn't leading to it and that if it happens, they would do it as secretly as possible with as few people in the knowledge as possible and not shoot it around a bunch of extras.

[dirtypop90]

I don't think there's a chance in hell Jon turns against Sansa. I also think, if Sansa goes against Dany, Arya would be on Sansa's side. For all we know, Arya doesn't like Dany either or is just indifferent and therefore doesn't care whether she becomes Queen or not. During her convo with Jon, I noticed she referred to Dany as "Your Queen" and not "The Queen."  Even saying her name would've indicated more respect than "Your Queen"  There's simply no way Jon, especially after finding out how Ned put his own kids and wife in jeopardy by raising him, wouldn't continue to try to protect Sansa and Arya.

[glowbug]

54 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Does anyone know if we have pictures for 8x04 yet?

Never mind. I was looking at May not April. I thought they came out earlier than two days before. The current images don’t tell us anything. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by glowbug

[dirtypop90]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

Tbh I think Dany's death could be really popular among casuals. I feel they really hate her. Sometimes even more than Cersei.

I met only one person in real life that likes her.

All the casuals I know expect her to survive and rule.  I did too before joining the online community. 

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, nikma said:

Tbh I think Dany's death could be really popular among casuals. I feel they really hate her. Sometimes even more than Cersei.

I met only one person in real life that likes her.

Casual fans are the ones with the Mother of Dragons t-shirts.  Obviously not everybody likes her, same as any character, but intense dislike is much more a characteristic of certain portions of the very involved fans.

The first images from episode 804.  Mainly funeral-centric. SanSan fans rejoice at them being in the same shot for the first time, heh.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SeanC

[Minneapple]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The first images from episode 804.  Mainly funeral-centric. SanSan fans rejoice at them being in the same shot for the first time, heh.

No Jon in any of the photos? Unless my eyes are deceiving me.

[nikma]

I'm speaking from my own experience. People around me hate her. And they are all casual fans.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

No Jon in any of the photos? Unless my eyes are deceiving me.

If you’re looking at the WOTW link, I edited it to have EW instead, as they have a closeup of Jon that WOTW didn’t post for whatever reason.  You can also see him in the shot of everybody going to light the pyres.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We'll have to see about Sansa/Tyrion. My opinion is that the writing for the TV version of the relationship has always been shippy as fuck, the whole crypt moment hand kiss was shippy as fuck, and that introducing such scenes this late in the game is usually a sign of an endgame pairing. Also, anyone who claims that the hand kiss was platonic or a sign of deep friendship and respect is being willfully blind at this point. There's nothing platonic whatsoever about that shit.

A book quote from ASOS: "The septon raised his crystal high, so the rainbow light fell down upon them. "Here in the sight of gods and men," he said, "I do solemnly proclaim Tyrion of House Lannister and Sansa of House Stark to be man and wife, one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever, and cursed be the one who comes between them."

The last words - cursed etc - seem to apply to Littlefinger, who "came between them" with the purple wedding and with his own designs for Sansa. I wonder if it would also apply to other (book) suitors in the Vale.

OTOH, book-Sansa would need a pressing political motive to agree with a continued (non-sham) marriage, as it's clear book-Tyrion is far from a dream husband. In the books, Tyrion has two different eyes, his nose is cut off and he didn't warn Sansa about the Lannisters marriage plot beforehand. In turn, Sansa didn't kneel for him as she did in the show.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Wouter

[andipandi]

Jon does not want to be king. Some might say that makes him ideal then...

[Bannon]

I am curious as to whether some of those who survived The Long Night at Winterfell will come away fundamentally changed, by way of having such an existential experience, in the manner that some Holocaust survivors did, or some of those soldiers who experience the worst of extended combat in our world. If so, how will they change? I mean, even people like The Hound, who has lived with death for years and years, even encountering the wights previously, reached a new level of intimacy with death during that battle. At least some of these people need to have changed priorities, or face severe emotional trauma, after this experience, if the complexity of the human reaction to horror is to be given the justice it is due. Hope the writers are up to it.

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If you’re looking at the WOTW link, I edited it to have EW instead, as they have a closeup of Jon that WOTW didn’t post for whatever reason.  You can also see him in the shot of everybody going to light the pyres.

Thanks. I see him in the funeral pyre shot now.

Sansa's hair is resembling Cersei's roughly about season four.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

Bran is the logical choice to rule given his skill set.  

How?  I don’t disagree that it would be useful for a ruler to see and know everything, but Bran seems almost completely detached from human affairs.  I’d want him around, but I struggle to see why anybody would put him in charge.

Though with the Night King defeated, I’m not sure what Bran is meant to be spending his time on now. 

That's exactly WHY Bran is a logical and actually brilliant choice to be the head of a counsel ruling Westeros.  He's detached from "human affairs" which are mostly petty and self serving frankly.  He isn't going to be "King" according to that spoiler, he's going to lead a counsel (a really good group IMO) of humans, and I think because of who Bran is, that doesn't mean making pronouncements and ordering them around.  That means mostly guiding them if they go astray, and being a facilitator who helps them get along and make decisions, but stops them from normal human excesses.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

God knows that this wouldn’t stop the writers from shoving two characters into a scene together, but I don’t really see what a Sansa/Cersei confrontation would even amount to, narratively, at this point.

I think they will allow Sansa a scene savoring Cersei's death, or perhaps even having a role in it from afar, but that's it.  Payoff is a TV must, and the character deserves at least a smile or tear about it.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

She also just found out he's the rightful heir to the throne and he's been acting weird to her for the past two episodes. Politically, that's a nightmare if it gets out.  Now the obvious choice would be to marry him, but I don't believe she wants to be forced into such things anymore. 

If Jon and Sansa went to war ( which I doubt but for the sake of argument), Arya would almost certainly back Jon. Jon's motives are clear as glass at all times. Sansa's? not so much

Which is why I think "pay attention to the face" could be important. 

It may be that Jon at some point realizes Dany must die for any one of a dozen reasons, but can't do it.  It COULD be that Arya "takes his face" (after all he did already die) and kills Dany herself, for Jon.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Yeah, pretty much. Show Sansa is being written as someone who wants to be the top dog of the North. How would getting together with Tyrion make that happen? And she currently does not think too highly of Tyrion's intelligence, plus he is working for her enemy.

Whether they become enemies working against each other as Friki suggests or together against Dany as some other leaks suggest, I think they have separate endgames.

I think show Tyrion still wants Casterly Rock if I am not wrong.

With Bran leading a counsel (again, NOT as King) and the people on that counsel including Tyrion and the others?  Sansa would almost certainly be left alone to rule the North.  Frankly, something could evolve where Westeros sections all rule themselves, but are also aligned with one another.  Something like the British Coalition or the USA with it's states (governors, senators, etc.)

Tyrion could still have Casterly Rock, but also be a part of the overall governance of the coalition as well.  Frankly, it's Sansa's best chance to rule the North.

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

I agree that religion seems to be something that needs to be addressed in the remaining episodes. I'm starting to suspect that Bran's purpose is, at it's core, theological. We see all the characters of different religious backgrounds having redemptive or fulfillment arcs. Lord of Light followers like The Red Woman, or Beric. Theon was born in a society that worshipped The Drowned God, then raised in the religion of The North. Brienne is Knighted with the rhetoric of southern Westeros' religion. The Hound, in an interesting manner, made his near death comeback first with a group that worshipped as southern Westerosi (I've always thought the Ian McShane episode is very interesting), then of course he has most closely fought with devotees of the Lord of Light.

Then we have how the fundamental corruption (via love of power) of The High Sparrow shaped this story. It just makes me think that Bran, the repository of all knowledge of the history of Westeros, is to play a role in uniting all these different religious groups, and that is why the NK, who is Death personified, had, as his top priority, the destruction of the 3 Eyed Raven.

Then again, maybe I'm clueless. Just hoping for some good writing to end this story.

I don't think you are clueless.  The show may go about all of this quite awkwardly, but if it's true that GRRM told them the eventual outcome, it will at least come close to what actually sounds like a very satisfying conclusion to the books.  Whether or not the shortened version on the TV show will be satisfying to anyone is another story.

I'm beginning to think the spoilers COULD be true, or someone has simply written a pretty wonderful conclusion via fan fiction and understanding GRRM and the books at least.  None of it may happen, but I am starting to really like it.

A ruler like Dany is not only much too obvious for GRRM, it also, in the long run would not be a very good end for the "small folk" that GRRM cares so much about.  That coalition?  Could be.  Common goals such as peace and defense, but no one "taking the knee" to a single human.

3 hours ago, Jextella said:

Going against the grain, but the spoilers add up for me. 

Jaimie and Tyrion are family-first (now that the NK is dead anyway).  Likely neither wants Cersei ruling, but they don't want her dead either.  Especially not her unborn child.  Through Brienne, Jamie found humanity and is reminded of what it means to be a knight.  But his heart will always be with Cersei.  You can't help who you love.

Dany has lost a ton and she's not going to sit down and take it.  The Iron Throne is all she has left to live for and she'll fight for it. 

I think the Hound is spent and could care less about who rules what, etc. He has one thing to live for - and that's exacting revenge on his brother.  Even if it means his own death - and perhaps he's ready for that now.

Arya only has Jon and Sansa and she's not meant for a ruler's life.  She's been gone so long, too, that she doesn't have the same experiences or the deep loyalty Sansa does.  

Sansa rules the north on behalf of all that came before, especially Ned and her brothers, and maybe even Theon.

Bran is the logical choice to rule given his skill set.  

I guess the one thing that is unclear is why Jon would go back to the wall since the NK is dead.  Maybe "just in case" or maybe Bran foreshadows things to come.

The spoilers leave Grayworm, Tormund, Brienne/Podrick, and Theon's sister, Yara, unaccounted for.  I suppose Brienne sticks with her oath to protect the Stark girls and heads north.  Tormund likely follows.  Yara probably rules the Iron Islands. 

I hope the practice of making men eunichs is abandonded.  It'll mean Grayworm needs a job, though.  Perhaps he die fighting Dany in retaliation for Misandei's death.

I agree.

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Someone at Freefolk posted a roundup of all the "will Jon kill Dany" theories, leaks and interviews. Both pro and con.

People have posted additional links in the thread, so browse away.

Thanks, looking forward to reading all of that.

52 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Bran by himself, nah. King Bran as an absentee king that uses his powers to help with Sansa as the one actually ruling though, that would work. 

The word King wasn't used, and I think that is hugely significant, and frankly, the reason I would like it as a conclusion.  It also fits well with the throne being destroyed by dragons.  No more throne.  No more King or Queen.

40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Speaking of weddings, at Freefolk someone spotted some flowers on one of the tables in the hall scene where a toasting Dany is being cheered by the Northerners and noted that there were also flowers on the tables at Joffrey and Margaery weddings. (Westerosi: they're just like us!) Maybe the Dany scene is a wedding? And if so, who's getting married?

Holy shit.  I think that would be wild, one last wedding, and this time Dany dies (via Arya posing as Jon?)  Still, I have a very hard time thinking that would remain unspoiled.  What an idea though, and it certainly makes a wonderful symmetry.  Especially if Jon killing Dany is correct.  Weddings are always bad news.

37 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

“Bran is the logical choice to rule given his skill set.”

Actually Bran is the last logical choice because he is a crippled and most likely can’t have children. And if he cannot have an heir and secure a lineage then they are just waiting for the next ambitious lord to start his own claim of the thins (FWIW, only 10% of men with an spinal cord injury can have an erection and only a very small part of those have viable sperm). 

I’m absolutely pissed of with those spoilers. So this is it? Jon and Dany, who have always tried to do what is right, end like that? He kills her and exiles himself in the far North (this is my interpretation of the Night Watch stuff). Dany goes mad but cannot  snap out of it? She, from all people, cannot see her mistakes or how she is repeating her father’s path?? Jon has to live knowing he killed the woman he loves? Two of the best people in this show - arguably the best - end like this? Fuck this. Fuck this a billion times.

Also, I cannot be the only one thinking that if this is true, then Bran is the real villain there and planned it all along? That would explain why he would keep Tyrion in his council, since he planned it all?

ETA: Edited because I fucked up using quotes and then fucked up again trying to fix it.

Why villain?  Bran wouldn't need to have kids, because, there is no more KING or Queen.  Westeros evolves.

14 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

The person did indeed correctly spoil that Arya would kill the Night King. But their information about Jon killing Dany is shaky. It comes secondhand from a friend of theirs who was filming on the King's Landing set, and the person said first that Jon kills Cersei, then changed it to Dany.

ETA -- on the last page I posted a link to Freefolk that rounds up all the information about Jon possibly killing Dany into one post. 

Holy cow, the quoting function is screwed up today, already answered this one. ????

2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

All the casuals I know expect her to survive and rule.  I did too before joining the online community. 

Yeah, pretty much everyone seems to be cheering for Dany, but honestly, I think she would be a horrible way for this saga to end.  Westeros without a King or Queen anymore is seriously growing on me as a ending.  It, because of Bran, could also solve or at least mitigate all the religions as well.

[MadameKillerB]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I am curious as to whether some of those who survived The Long Night at Winterfell will come away fundamentally changed, by way of having such an existential experience, in the manner that some Holocaust survivors did, or some of those soldiers who experience the worst of extended combat in our world. If so, how will they change? I mean, even people like The Hound, who has lived with death for years and years, even encountering the wights previously, reached a new level of intimacy with death during that battle. At least some of these people need to have changed priorities, or face severe emotional trauma, after this experience, if the complexity of the human reaction to horror is to be given the justice it is due. Hope the writers are up to it.

Oh I absolutely agree. Esp about The Hound. He definitely looked like he was suffering PTSD. And not just about the fire.

I don't want this episode's events just glossed over, like they ticked a box and moved on. I'd like it to have some consequences. And again agree: hope the writers are up to it.

[YaddaYadda]

Not for nothing, but that shot of Cersei, I find that she does look pregnant. Her clothes are always more adjusted. 

[Kate47]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 Hope the writers are up to it.

They're really not.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

This is usually postulated as a means of showing that Sansa now has the upper hand or whatever, but the resolution of the Cersei plot line is fundamentally a military question at this point, not a political/diplomatic one (this being Sansa’s alleged if seldom-seen skillset).  The notional contribution a character like Sansa could make would be undermining Cersei’s political support/alliances, but TV Cersei doesn’t really have any of those, and there’s no real “neutral” setting where they could play the game against each other (ie, they’re in different camps, not jostling for power in the same camp).  Cersei’s only supporters at this point are some paid mercenaries and an evil pirate.  The endgame is storming King’s Landing to oust Cersei.

I imagine that whatever role Sansa has in the remaining episodes is focused on the internal dynamics of the Stargaryen camp.

We know, though, that the actor who plays SR is going to appear. While the Vale has lost a good chunk of soldiers, it's fairly certain that the Vale didn't send all its men North - there had to be enough men at home to protect the lord. So the Vale will get to be a player with both men and the food Dany and the North will still need. What will be on the table? Will Sansa's hand be requested, or offered by the person with the authority to command it?

[ShellsandCheese]

Let’s say the series ends with some sort of council, Bran is still arguably their worst choice to be head of said council. If you’re head of a council you need to have a certain set of diplomatic skills and be able to and want to communicate clearly. Bran doesn’t do that. Also, the person would need to be as unbiased and fair as possible. That pretty much rules out most of the main cast because they all have an agenda, bias, and would want to secure special status for their interests. 

[GrailKing]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:28 AM, Eyes High said:

I think the leaker also posted on another account under a throwaway (not sure if it's the same leaker) that Sansa and Tyrion scheme together against Dany, that Sansa strings Tyrion along with promises of ruling together and then doublecrosses him to claim it all.

I mentioned this sometime back, not to rule it all, but to remove Tywin's line.

I don't think she would feel safe and by  extension her family; as long as one of Tywin's cubs are alive.

Leave one Lion alive and the Wolves are never safe.

[MarySNJ]

53 minutes ago, nikma said:

Tbh I think Dany's death could be really popular among casuals. I feel they really hate her. Sometimes even more than Cersei.

I met only one person in real life that likes her.

My experience is completely the opposite. Almost everyone I know loves Dany and hates Cersei.  A few would kill off Jon for a being “boring”. 

[Bannon]

33 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Oh I absolutely agree. Esp about The Hound. He definitely looked like he was suffering PTSD. And not just about the fire.

I don't want this episode's events just glossed over, like they ticked a box and moved on. I'd like it to have some consequences. And again agree: hope the writers are up to it.

It would be interesting if The Hound no longer was spoiling for a death match with his brother. I mean, he'll fight him to the death if the circumstances force the issue, but it is no longer something he relishes, and actually doing it sickens him.

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I mentioned this sometime back, not to rule it all, but to remove Tywin's line.

I don't think she would feel safe and by  extension her family; as long as one of Tywin's cubs are alive.

Leave one Lion alive and the Wolves are never safe.

Apparently the leaker said that the Sansa/Tyrion doublecross stuff was not from him, so it was a fleaker trying to piggyback off the other leaks to attempt to legitimize them. Nothing to see here.

Sansa's new hairstyle in the mass funeral 8x04 stills looks like Cersei's in S4 with a side of Catelyn (pinned braids in a big whorl with a long braid down the back). Relevant?

The new stills only show scenes from the 8x04 promo. Very interesting. I guess they really don't want to give anything away at this point. This episode is going to be extremely juicy.

We're really in the plot endgame now. 8x06 is epilogue, 8x05 is going to be focused on shit hitting the fan in KL with lots of action and chaos and such, so 8x04 really is the last chance for any important character development or of any of the key relationships. It also seems from the 8x04 promo that a number of characters do in fact head south, leaving some characters (for example Sansa, Tormund, and Gilly) behind. I'm not even sure if Brienne accompanies Jaime to KL. So it's really crunch time on a plot level.

If Jaime and Brienne are going to consummate their attraction, it has to happen in this episode. If Jon and Dany are going to reconcile or drift even further apart, it has to happen in this episode. If Sam is going to bust out the news about Jon's parentage, it has to happen in this episode. If Gendry and Arya are going to have a substantial conversation that isn't just flirting and makeouts, it has to happen in this episode. If the various characters heading south have shit they need to work out with the people staying behind, they need to work it out in this episode, and if they don't work it out, it's not going to get worked out. By the time 8x06 rolls around, all the endgame relationships will already be in place.

So going back to my speculation, if Sansa and Tyrion don't say two words to each other for the entire span of 8x04, we can write off 8x03 as a nice bit of closure for that relationship and move on. If there is going to be movement on that front, it has to happen in 8x04. 

I really hope there's a lot of deep emotional reflection about the whole near miss with the death and losing loved ones, but even in a supersized episode, I don't know how much time will be devoted to that, especially if they have to cram in Cersei and Team Jon/Dany ends up leaving Winterfell in the same episode to head south. A regular episode has 30+ scenes, so I guess a supersized episode would be closer to 45 scenes. They can do a lot in 45 scenes, but will they?

Outstanding preseason promo scenes still remaining:

1. Sansa on the Winterfell battlements looking out at something disapprovingly (the dragons, it seems from the 8x04 promo).

2. Tyrion looking up sadly at something. (He's wearing the same costume as he seems to be wearing in 8x04, so maybe it's from this episode.)

3. Dany wearing a dark costume with a big battle braid with her back to Jon as Jon retreats out of the frame. (From Dragonstone?)

I think the full reds and blacks will come out when Dany fully commits to the assault on KL: the red outfit when she's toasting, and the dark outfit she's wearing with Jon. The shift from the grey and white colours to full red and black may not bode well for their relationship.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

It would be interesting if The Hound no longer was spoiling for a death match with his brother. I mean, he'll fight him to the death if the circumstances force the issue, but it is no longer something he relishes, and actually doing it sickens him.

It would be interesting if Sandor ends up killing the Mountain out of mercy. 

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Let’s say the series ends with some sort of council, Bran is still arguably their worst choice to be head of said council. If you’re head of a council you need to have a certain set of diplomatic skills and be able to and want to communicate clearly. Bran doesn’t do that. Also, the person would need to be as unbiased and fair as possible. That pretty much rules out most of the main cast because they all have an agenda, bias, and would want to secure special status for their interests. 

That's the thing though, Bran probably IS the most unbiased and fair of anyone on screen.  Also, as I said above, as head of a counsel, he probably doesn't need to butt in much (that is an amazing and balanced group!)  He only needs to guide when needed, and he has more skills than anyone else at being able to wisely do that.  He wouldn't be a nanny, he'd be a facilitator when absolutely needed.  At least that is how I see it.

For example, if after the brief glow of peace or at least the end of most battles, human greed or jealously or whatever pop up, which could lead to something disastrous for Westeros? Then he steps in with wise counsel, not orders.  No one being issues orders anymore, no one is King or Queen, and whatever brats are sired do not automatically believe that by the chance of birth they are due to inherit anything, let alone power.

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It would be interesting if The Hound no longer was spoiling for a death match with his brother. I mean, he'll fight him to the death if the circumstances force the issue, but it is no longer something he relishes, and actually doing it sickens him.

That's the one spoiler in this group that makes me sad.  The Hound is very close to the top of my favorite characters, I love his story and his journey.  I hope, at least, that when  he kills his brother it's because he has to, he's saving someone else, not for revenge.  I really wish he could just live and find happiness.  Maybe in the books that will happen, but on TV?  It's a trope that I doubt they will ignore.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

It would be interesting if Sandor ends up killing the Mountain out of mercy. 

Jaimie really ought to change further yet, in what way I'm not sure. Most of the spoilers I read pertaining to him are vaguely unsatisfying to me. Yes, even before the battle he was not the same man who shoved Bran out the window, but he was still the man who would say he'd do it again to protect his family. Is he still that man? Or has the deeply existential nature of this battle caused him to reevaluate even more fundamentally? There were some things I didn't like about this episode (although I liked it a lot more upon rewatch), and generally I dislike zombie plot devices, but everybody involved did such a good job of capturing the existential horror of it that they really set the stage for an interesting finish to the story. The next 3 episodes could really be terrific, if the writers exploit the opportunity they have provided themselves.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The first images from episode 804.  Mainly funeral-centric...

Interesting that they burn the bodies even though there's no need now that the Night King is dead.

Old habits die hard

[Umbelina]

If they fit one last wedding in, my guess would be Dany and Jon. 

We've had the red wedding and the purple wedding, what color do you guys guess for this one?  (I'm guessing from the spoilers that at some point Arya takes Jon's face and kills Dany, that is, IF the spoilers are true.)  Or maybe Jon does have to kill her after all, and does it himself?

Or, more likely, there is no wedding, but you have to admit, it would be great.  What color though?

[MarySNJ]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jaimie really ought to change further yet, in what way I'm not sure. Most of the spoilers I read pertaining to him are vaguely unsatisfying to me. Yes, even before the battle he was not the same man who shoved Bran out the window, but he was still the man who would say he'd do it again to protect his family. Is he still that man? Or has the deeply existential nature of this battle caused him to reevaluate even more fundamentally? There were some things I didn't like about this episode (although I liked it a lot more upon rewatch), and generally I dislike zombie plot devices, but everybody involved did such a good job of capturing the existential horror of it that they really set the stage for an interesting finish to the story. The next 3 episodes could really be terrific, if the writers exploit the opportunity they have provided themselves.

My thought on Jaime is that he will never go against his sister and the mother of his child. He took an oath to fight for the living and he did that. He’s not going to fight on Daenerys’s side against Cersei. That puts him in a very precarious situation. 

I completely agree with you about the existential horror that they captured in the filming. I had all the lights turned off in my TV room so I could see it in the dark but those storm scenes were chaotic. Also, the scene where the Dothraki ride off with their flaming swords which are snuffed out in an instant reminded me of the scene in Hardhome where the dead are tumbling over the cliff to attack a the Freefolk outside the gate and there’s a panic as the gate is closed, and then dead silence. Terrifying. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Interesting that they burn the bodies even though there's no need now that the Night King is dead.

Old habits die hard

Or do they think or know that just because the NK is dead, doesn't mean there will never be another NK or "winter?"  Maybe that's why Jon heads north at the end "taking the black" again, or maybe it's the PTWP thing somehow, and Jon is a new NK? 

I don't know, my head hurts.

It's more likely that it's easier to burn that huge number of dead than to try to dig graves in the frozen earth.

[MarySNJ]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Or do they think or know that just because the NK is dead, doesn't mean there will never be another NK or "winter?"  Maybe that's why Jon heads north at the end "taking the black" again, or maybe it's the PTWP thing somehow, and Jon is a new NK? 

I don't know, my head hurts.

It's more likely that it's easier to burn that huge number of dead than to try to dig graves in the frozen earth.

Exactly. It’s just practical. How many people are there left to dig graves for thousands of the stinking, rotting bodies?

[Morrigan2575]

47 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Let’s say the series ends with some sort of council, Bran is still arguably their worst choice to be head of said council. If you’re head of a council you need to have a certain set of diplomatic skills and be able to and want to communicate clearly. Bran doesn’t do that. Also, the person would need to be as unbiased and fair as possible. That pretty much rules out most of the main cast because they all have an agenda, bias, and would want to secure special status for their interests. 

They'd also need to make decisions/hard choices. Plus a total lack of humanity is the worst thing in a leader. If anything Bran would make a good advisor not a leader.

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If they fit one last wedding in, my guess would be Dany and Jon. 

We've had the red wedding and the purple wedding, what color do you guys guess for this one?  (I'm guessing from the spoilers that at some point Arya takes Jon's face and kills Dany, that is, IF the spoilers are true.)  Or maybe Jon does have to kill her after all, and does it himself?

Or, more likely, there is no wedding, but you have to admit, it would be great.  What color though?

Weddings on this show are associated with disaster, as you pointed out, so maybe no weddings are best.

I don't know who would be getting married at this point, unless Jon and Dany smooth things over. There was speculation that they filmed a secret wedding in Iceland for 8x04, since I remember them saying they used local extras, and no extras appeared in the 8x01 scene. Dany's hairstyle is a bit softer in the Drogon clips. On the other hand, Jon and Dany don't seem to be in any state of mind to be getting married. They haven't sorted out the Aegon issue yet, and I expect that to be dealt with in 8x04. Maybe the whole thing is sorted out in 8x04 and by the end of the episode, Jon and Dany are on the same page. They head south to face Cersei together as far as I can tell, so they must reach some kind of understanding.

I also don't know that if the big hall meeting is a wedding celebration that it's Dany's, because the 8x04 promo has a shot of her stalking out of what looks like that same hall looking upset. Maybe she makes a big speech and while it starts off well, her other comments are less well received...? The outfit she's wearing might be the same as the one she's wearing in the battle braid shot from one of the S8 preseason promos. 

I'm wondering about Emilia's speech in a "lot of languages" that we heard about. English (well, "Common") and High Valyrian (for the Unsullied) are two languages. Are there even any Dothraki left? Because it sure looks like they were wiped out to a man.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The new stills only show scenes from the 8x04 promo. Very interesting. I guess they really don't want to give anything away at this point. This episode is going to be extremely juicy.

I think it will be better than 8x03. Battle of the Bastards was way hyped up in season 6, but that season had better episodes. I'm hoping the same is true here. Most of all I'm looking forward to an actual conversation between Jon and Dany, and I'm eager to see Sansa and Arya's reactions to Jon's parentage. 

One point I've been thinking about. It strikes me a bit strange that Dany would decide like right now to march on King's Landing. Obviously I don't know if that's exactly what's happening, but it seems like it. I mean they're injured and tired, they've suffered casualties, even the dragons were injured. And they're probably all not in the best mental place right now. So "hey let's get Cersei now!" doesn't seem like the best of plans. It makes more sense to plan a defensive position if they get information that Cersei is planning a strike against the North, but again -- that doesn't make sense. Cersei is sitting pretty in King's Landing with her paid for army. She doesn't have to do anything except sit there and wait for them to come to her.

[MadameKillerB]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

One point I've been thinking about. It strikes me a bit strange that Dany would decide like right now to march on King's Landing. Obviously I don't know if that's exactly what's happening, but it seems like it. I mean they're injured and tired, they've suffered casualties, even the dragons were injured. And they're probably all not in the best mental place right now. So "hey let's get Cersei now!" doesn't seem like the best of plans. It makes more sense to plan a defensive position if they get information that Cersei is planning a strike against the North, but again -- that doesn't make sense. 

Agreed. I posted about this but can't remember if it was this thread or not. I think they need some time to regroup, lick their wounds, get more support.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They'd also need to make decisions/hard choices. Plus a total lack of humanity is the worst thing in a leader. If anything Bran would make a good advisor not a leader.

The spoiler doesn't say he's the leader though, it says:  In the epilogue, Jon takes the black again for killing Dany. Arya leaves. Sansa rules the North. Bran oversees his council of Tyrion, Davos, Sam, and Bronn. 

As an overseer, he seems just about perfect.

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Weddings on this show are associated with disaster, as you pointed out, so maybe no weddings are best.

I don't know who would be getting married at this point, unless Jon and Dany smooth things over. There was speculation that they filmed a secret wedding in Iceland for 8x04, since I remember them saying they used local extras, and no extras appeared in the 8x01 scene. Dany's hairstyle is a bit softer in the Drogon clips. On the other hand, Jon and Dany don't seem to be in any state of mind to be getting married. They haven't sorted out the Aegon issue yet, and I expect that to be dealt with in 8x04. 

I also don't know that if the big hall meeting is a wedding celebration that it's Dany's, because the 8x04 promo has a shot of her stalking out of what looks like that same hall looking upset. Maybe she makes a big speech and while it starts off well, her other comments are less well received...? The outfit she's wearing might be the same as the one she's wearing in the battle braid shot from one of the S8 preseason promos. 

Yeah, I was just spitballing in case the spoilers are true that "Jon" (Arya in his face or really Jon?) kills Dany.

Maybe something at the "wedding" changes.  Maybe Jon's true parents are revealed and it makes Dany blow her top and get all "kill them all-y" again, etc.  Maybe Jon just leaves the whole mess, but Arya (as Jon) kills Dany?

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I think it will be better than 8x03. Battle of the Bastards was way hyped up in season 6, but that season had better episodes. I'm hoping the same is true here. Most of all I'm looking forward to an actual conversation between Jon and Dany, and I'm eager to see Sansa and Arya's reactions to Jon's parentage. 

One point I've been thinking about. It strikes me a bit strange that Dany would decide like right now to march on King's Landing. Obviously I don't know if that's exactly what's happening, but it seems like it. I mean they're injured and tired, they've suffered casualties, even the dragons were injured. And they're probably all not in the best mental place right now. So "hey let's get Cersei now!" doesn't seem like the best of plans. It makes more sense to plan a defensive position if they get information that Cersei is planning a strike against the North, but again -- that doesn't make sense. Cersei is sitting pretty in King's Landing with her paid for army. She doesn't have to do anything except sit there and wait for them to come to her.

True, but dragons.

Also it will take a while to get there, and those photos show her ships on the way as well.  ??

[BadAssRobinArryn]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's more likely that it's easier to burn that huge number of dead than to try to dig graves in the frozen earth.

This. Especially because they don't have that much time but Need to prepare for Cersei possibly striking. And I assume the Dead include every Wight who came With the Night King from North and Beyond the Wall. So it must be a lot of them. Only the White Walkers shattered, right?

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I think it will be better than 8x03. Battle of the Bastards was way hyped up in season 6, but that season had better episodes. I'm hoping the same is true here. Most of all I'm looking forward to an actual conversation between Jon and Dany, and I'm eager to see Sansa and Arya's reactions to Jon's parentage. 

Me, too. I'm here for the drama and the angst, no question. It's going to be messy as hell. I can't wait.

Quote

One point I've been thinking about. It strikes me a bit strange that Dany would decide like right now to march on King's Landing. Obviously I don't know if that's exactly what's happening, but it seems like it. I mean they're injured and tired, they've suffered casualties, even the dragons were injured. And they're probably all not in the best mental place right now. So "hey let's get Cersei now!" doesn't seem like the best of plans. It makes more sense to plan a defensive position if they get information that Cersei is planning a strike against the North, but again -- that doesn't make sense. Cersei is sitting pretty in King's Landing with her paid for army. She doesn't have to do anything except sit there and wait for them to come to her.

I agree. Dany's probably itching for revenge against Cersei, hurting from the loss of her Dothraki and Unsullied (as well as Jorah), and looking for a fresh target. She's also probably glad to have gotten a big win and to return to her real goal: the Iron Throne. So from Dany's perspective, I understand why she wants to rush, and I also understand why her allies might be less than thrilled at the prospect. Either way, it seems like Dany gets her wish, since we see Targaryen ships sailing in the 8x04 promo.

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe something at the "wedding" changes.  Maybe Jon's true parents are revealed and it makes Dany blow her top and get all "kill them all-y" again, etc.  

I think for reasons of storytelling economy, there will probably be one scene where pretty much everyone is told about Jon's parentage, rather than a series of individual scenes as the news gets out. Maybe Sam is fed up with Dany's talk of her plans as queen, blurts out the truth at one of these big great hall meetings and all hell breaks loose. I thought Sophie or Maisie said that Sansa and Arya wouldn't wait very long to find out Jon's parentage, either.