Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SimoneS]

29 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Are all of the Children of the Forest dead?

The Craster babies that were left out in the cold - NK touches them and their eyes turn blue. Do these babies "grow" into adulthood? This is a different kind of power as the NK usually brings back a dead person and changes them into zombies. The usual zombies - are moving dead decaying bodies.

All the Children of the Forest are now dead, in the show anyway. Craster's sons grow up to be the White Walkers with the blue eyes who are the NK's generals/lieutenants. How they grow into adult is one of the great mysteries of this story. I don't get it so I try not to think of it too deeply.

[KungFuBunny]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

All the Children of the Forest are now dead, in the show anyway. Craster's sons grow up to be the White Walkers with the blue eyes who are the NK's generals/lieutenants. How they grow into adult is one of the great mysteries of this story. I don't get it so I try not to think of it too deeply.

Was that verified on the show that they are all dead?

[Constantinople]

The Roman Empire once had an Emperor in Rome and another in Constantinople. Perhaps Jon and Dany will do something comparable

I doubt it, but it's a possibility

P.S. - I thought I posted this before, but now I can't seem to find that post, so apologies if I'm repeating myself

[blixie]

Quote

Was that verified on the show that they are all dead?

Yeah where has this every been textually stated? And even if it were I don' t know that I'd take it as true true. I think they showed us a few in the tree and they said something about being the last, then seemingly died but, eh, I bet they were definitely NOT the last and/or are definitely NOT dead. 

[Constantinople]

Has it ever been explained

1. How Rhaegar was able to get an annulment without notifying his wife?

2. What the grounds were for the annulment?

[glowbug]

Just now, Constantinople said:

Has it ever been explained

1. How Rhaegar was able to get an annulment without notifying his wife?

2. What the grounds were for the annulment?

No and I don’t think the show is going to address it. My theory is that in the books Rhaegar takes Lyanna as a second wife but since the show didn’t address the polygamy aspect of the Targaryens they just had Rhaegar annul his first marriage. 

[dirtypop90]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

But this is incorrect. Jon's claim doesn't supersede hers because he's male. It's because he's the last surviving child of the crown prince. If Jon was a woman and Dany a man, Jon still would have a greater claim based on the hierarchy of succession. Dany was only the primary heir when it seemed that all of Rheagar's children were dead. 

Dany is Prince Harry here. Harry may be Will's brother, but Will and all of Will's children are ahead of Harry in the line of succession. Gender has nothing to do with Dany's situation now.

So if the mad king's first child, was a girl, and Jon's mother, and Dany was a boy.  Jon's claim would still supersede hers?  

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

Was that verified on the show that they are all dead?

It wasn't stated expressly either way, but there's no indication there are more of them either, and given that if there were you would expect that to play into the story, I think it can be safely presumed that as far as the writers are concerned that was all of them.

15 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Has it ever been explained

1. How Rhaegar was able to get an annulment without notifying his wife?

2. What the grounds were for the annulment?

Details of no interest as far as the show is concerned.  Everybody accepts that the annulment was valid, and that's all that needs to be said.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

So if the mad king's first child, was a girl, and Jon's mother, and Dany was a boy.  Jon's claim would still supersede hers?  

No, in that case Dany would come first on the basis of being the king's son, even though she was younger. 

But in this case Daenerys is younger, so she'd be behind Rhaegar and Rhaegar's offspring even if she was male.

[KungFuBunny]

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Has it ever been explained

1. How Rhaegar was able to get an annulment without notifying his wife?

2. What the grounds were for the annulment?

I don't think it was ever explained but I could see it easily happening as it seems in this world and the 7 kingdoms historically has been ruled by MEN. I don't even know if he would have to give any "grounds" for divorce.

I also think when the romance began to bud between Lyanna/Rhaegar - many of the families knew and saw. The wheels started turning for all of them - some to set things into motion to keep their positions and some to try to use this information to move up in the ranks of the houses.

Ned hated the Mad King for killing some of his family members - but I don't think he particularly hated Rhaegar.

Robert used Ned's hatred of the Mad King and tried to convince Ned that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. This he used to justify killing Rhaegar to take the crown.

Rhaegar's first wife and children - weren't protected enough. There were probably parties in their household that helped the enemies come in to slaughter them. They were killed by the Lannisters - sending in The Mountain. 

I think an agreement was made beforehand between the Baratheons and the Lannisters so that when Robert became king he would marry Cersei. I don't think Robert ever really "loved" Lyanna - he just claimed it to justify his actions and to get Ned on his side.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I don't think it was ever explained but I could see it easily happening as it seems in this world and the 7 kingdoms historically has been ruled by MEN. I don't even know if he would have to give any "grounds" for divorce.

I also think when the romance began to bud between Lyanna/Rhaegar - many of the families knew and saw. The wheels started turning for all of them - some to set things into motion to keep their positions and some to try to use this information to move up in the ranks of the houses.

 Ned hated the Mad King for killing some of his family members - but I don't think he particularly hated Rhaegar.

Robert used Ned's hatred of the Mad King and tried to convince Ned that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. This he used to justify killing Rhaegar to take the crown.

 Rhaegar's first wife and children - weren't protected enough. There were probably parties in their household that helped the enemies come in to slaughter them. They were killed by the Lannisters - sending in The Mountain. 

I think an agreement was made beforehand between the Baratheons and the Lannisters so that when Robert became king he would marry Cersei. I don't think Robert ever really "loved" Lyanna - he just claimed it to justify his actions and to get Ned on his side.

In a world where marriages are a cornerstone of alliances (in a traditional sense, most marriages were effectively a deal between the groom and the bride's father), annulment being that easy allows the groom to break faith with his wife's family and send her back really easily, which would be a major source of outrage for said family.  That's the biggest reason why, in the real world, such actions were extremely controversial in European history.  The reason Henry VIII had such a hard time dissolving his marriage with Catherine of Aragon was that the Pope did not want to offend Catherine's nephew, the Habsburg King-Emperor Charles V.

Lyanna and Rhaegar's romance was completely secret; nobody knew about it beforehand.

Robert was not some master manipulator trying to make himself king.  If you look at book canon, he even tried to decline the crown.  And the rebellion started after the Mad King executed a bunch of nobles and called for Robert and Ned's deaths -- they had no choice but to defend themselves.

[GraceK]

Not really of any relevance but it made me laugh so hard 

[LadyChaos]

What if Tyrion's treason, was telling Cersei to walk out and lie about joining in the fight.  Tyrion knowing this needs to be done though Cersei won't mean it, but he knows that Dany won't go north without hearing that Cersei will agree to the truce.

[Hana Chan]

42 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

So if the mad king's first child, was a girl, and Jon's mother, and Dany was a boy.  Jon's claim would still supersede hers?  

Going strictly by birth order in a gender-neutral manner, yes. Dany was Rhaegar's youngest sibling and in the normal order of succession, she would be behind Rheagar and Viserys. Once Rhaegar had any children, his siblings would drop in the order of succession behind the children. That's why you get the "heir and the spare" adage. Viserys and Dany were the spares in case Rhaegar died before he had children to continue the linage. 

Of course, many royal houses did give a clear preference to male heirs over girls and some have outright prohibitions against women ascending the throne (such as the Japanese royal family - the current crown prince has no sons and the title of Emperor will pass down to his younger brother's son after his death because his daughter cannot be Empress). 

When I reviewed the Targaryen family tree, there were no queens that ruled in a superior position over their husbands (as far as I can tell - please correct me if I'm wrong), so there there is a preference for male heirs the odds are that Dany would never be considered as a potential heir for the throne unless she was the absolute last option. 

[Raachel2008]

11 hours ago, Friendly kitty said:

And why does she need her? Arya solves problems as they come. Now the most important thing is to defeat the army of the dead. And then it will be necessary to find out who will be the king of the north, who will rule 7 kingdoms ...

It is not that she needs her, but that Arya has always been written, both in the books and the show, as tirsty for adventure and very very curious. It is kinda of baffling that she has no interest whatsoever in a woman who rides a dragon and commands an army. 

16 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I think she emphasized that he's male more for the audience, to explain why he's a head of her in line for the throne.  She is the mad king's child; jon is his grandchild; but because Jon is male, he jumps over her in line.  Seems too late to introduce a pregnancy.

But that is not true. He's a head of her in line for the throne because he is Raegar's son. He is the heir of the Crown Prince. Jon is Prince William here, while Danaerys is Princess Anne. Now I'm not saying that the fact he is a male doesn't matter in this world, but that is not why he is the first in the line to that crown.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Raachel2008

[onyxrose81]

11 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Going strictly by birth order in a gender-neutral manner, yes. Dany was Rhaegar's youngest sibling and in the normal order of succession, she would be behind Rheagar and Viserys. Once Rhaegar had any children, his siblings would drop in the order of succession behind the children. That's why you get the "heir and the spare" adage. Viserys and Dany were the spares in case Rhaegar died before he had children to continue the linage. 

Of course, many royal houses did give a clear preference to male heirs over girls and some have outright prohibitions against women ascending the throne (such as the Japanese royal family - the current crown prince has no sons and the title of Emperor will pass down to his younger brother's son after his death because his daughter cannot be Empress). 

When I reviewed the Targaryen family tree, there were no queens that ruled in a superior position over their husbands (as far as I can tell - please correct me if I'm wrong), so there there is a preference for male heirs the odds are that Dany would never be considered as a potential heir for the throne unless she was the absolute last option. 

After the Dance, the Targs put in a clause that said absolutely no woman could be Queen if there's a viable male heir anywhere.  So if the King had a son and a daughter, and the son had just daughters and the daughter had a son, then the throne would go to the grandson.  Dany was only the "heir" because she was the last Targ left.  If Jon and Dany were both women, it would get trickier.  I would think a counsel would be called and honestly, the people would choose Jon.  The daughter of beloved Rhaegar and raised by honorable Ned Stark versus the daughter of the Mad King.  Optics.

Edited April 22, 2019 by onyxrose81

[Kate47]

I thought the party line about Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna was the widely accepted one. I'm positive it was Robert's point of view, and the reason Jon was able to hide for so long. 

I don't remember there being an announced annulment (tho correct me if I'm wrong). I imagine Rhaegar's wife had a solid idea of his desire for the Prince who was Promised; I doubt she knew about him hedging his bets with two Aegons.

The supreme tragedy of these events, to me, is that given time they may all have ironed themselves out but nobody actually gave them the chance to.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Kate47
Clarifying statements

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But that is not true. He's a head of her in line for the throne because he is Raegar'son. He is the heir of the Crown Prince. Jon is Prince William here, while Danaerys is baby Sussex. 

Strictly speaking, if Jon is Prince William, Dany is the Duke of York, heh.

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

Strictly speaking, if Jon is Prince William, Dany is the Duke of York, heh.

Yup, I had already edited my post; Jon is Prince William, Dany is Princess Anne.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

But this is incorrect. Jon's claim doesn't supersede hers because he's male. It's because he's the last surviving child of the crown prince. If Jon was a woman and Dany a man, Jon still would have a greater claim based on the hierarchy of succession. Dany was only the primary heir when it seemed that all of Rheagar's children were dead. 

Dany is Prince Harry here. Harry may be Will's brother, but Will and all of Will's children are ahead of Harry in the line of succession. Gender has nothing to do with Dany's situation now.

Actually if the show is following the royal succession outlined in the books Jon's claim would take precedence over Dany's both because he's a male and because he's the son of Aerys' firstborn.

The books gave all the male heirs of house Targaryen precedent over the females.

After the death of Jaehaerys I's 2nd son Aemon, he passed over Aemon's daughter Rhaenys (The Queen Who Never Was) entirely in favor of his next son Baelon (much to the displeasure of his Queen, Alysanne, who saw no reason for a female to be passed over in favor of a male) 

After Baelon died, Rhaenys claim was again dismissed, and more so, the claims of HER children were dismissed because the council of 101 decided that the male line should take precedence and they installed Baelon's eldest son Viserys as Prince of Dragonstone. 

If all of Aerys' children and grandchildren lived the line of succession would have been 

Rhaegar

Aegon (the first Aegon who was killed by Gregor Clegane) 

Jon/Aegon (Jon may have come before original Aegon if Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was in fact annulled and not just set aside)

Viserys (the next eldest male who would supercede Rhaenys, even though she is the daughter of the first born)

Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter, who would supercede Dany based on premogeniture)

Daenerys (who is the last Dragon standing)

Edited April 22, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

I thought the party line about Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna was the widely accepted one. I'm positive it was Robert's point of view, and the reason Jon was able to hide for so long. 

The victor gets to write the story. And that's certainly the story that's been told at Winterfell. But a line that Robert speaks in AGoT seems to indicate that he knew there was more going on, and I remember that was when I started questioning the whole kidnapping/rape narrative we had been given. 

It doesn't seem like a lot of people buy into it the narrative. 

5 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

 I don't remember there being an announced annulment (tho correct me if I'm wrong) but I imagine Rhaegar's wife had a solid idea. 

In the show they had Oberyn tell Tyrion that Rhaegar left his sister for another woman. 

[Bannon]

I keep expecting Meera Reed to reappear. Not much time left.

[Kate47]

33 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

In the show they had Oberyn tell Tyrion that Rhaegar left his sister for another woman. 

I'm def not gonna go back and rewatch to verify what exactly Oberyn says, and Elia was Dornish. It stands to reason that she told her family when Rhaegar started skipping out, but there was nothing like an official statement (and I remember in the books she's not suprised when he names Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, though others are offended for her).

I do think Robert had the idea that maybe Lyanna went willingly, but he favored the rape storyline because it fell in line with what he wanted to see and Robert was always adept at closing his eyes to the truth when he didn't like it.

All this is to say that there may have come an annulment at some point in the future/there may have existed an annulment that was just starting to be drafted, but at the time of their deaths I believe Rhaegar was still very firmly married to Elia. 

Jon's case is interesting because I don't know what type of acknowledgement is needed to preclude bastardy.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Kate47

[KungFuBunny]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

In a world where marriages are a cornerstone of alliances (in a traditional sense, most marriages were effectively a deal between the groom and the bride's father), annulment being that easy allows the groom to break faith with his wife's family and send her back really easily, which would be a major source of outrage for said family.  That's the biggest reason why, in the real world, such actions were extremely controversial in European history.  The reason Henry VIII had such a hard time dissolving his marriage with Catherine of Aragon was that the Pope did not want to offend Catherine's nephew, the Habsburg King-Emperor Charles V.

Lyanna and Rhaegar's romance was completely secret; nobody knew about it beforehand.

Robert was not some master manipulator trying to make himself king.  If you look at book canon, he even tried to decline the crown.  And the rebellion started after the Mad King executed a bunch of nobles and called for Robert and Ned's deaths -- they had no choice but to defend themselves.

Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of roses at the Tourney at Harrendal. He was already married to Elia Martel with 2 kids. It was a scandal as he was married and she was highborn. I don't know if this was the beginning of their romance or if it had already been happening. I also don't know how long after they - disappeared but they had to be in hiding at least 6 months for her to then have Jon.

What was a secret was that she was pregnant.

[Raachel2008]

32 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The victor gets to write the story. And that's certainly the story that's been told at Winterfell. But a line that Robert speaks in AGoT seems to indicate that he knew there was more going on, and I remember that was when I started questioning the whole kidnapping/rape narrative we had been given. 

True, but show Robert - and show Ned, show Dany, show Cersei, show everybody - believed that she was kidnapped and raped. On TV there is no doubt that this is what everybody believes.

[Happy Harpy]

45 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

I'm def not gonna go back and rewatch to verify what exactly Oberyn says,

He said: "my sister loved him. and beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman". (There are some lines that just stick,  and in my head this one plays with Pedro Pascal's delivery).

Edited April 22, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[glowbug]

If we’re going by historical England, Jon would be the rightful heir to the throne regardless of his sex. The children of a crown prince, whether that prince became king or predeceased his father, would be next in line to the throne. However, among Rhaegar’s children, boys would be ahead of their sisters in the line of succession. This was only changed in 2012 or 2013 prior to the birth of Prince George. I think people get confused because often times aristocratic estates in England were entailed away from the female line. Notable fictional examples include Longbourn from Pride and Prejudice and Downton Abbey.

The only argument Dany has in terms of bloodline is that Aerys (at least in the books, I’m not sure if it was mentioned in the show) disinherited Rhaegar’s children after Rhaegar’s death and Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone by his mother. It’s not clear, though, that Aerys had the authority to do this. In England, the King had to seek permission from parliament to make changes to the line of succession. I don’t know how issues like this were handled in other kingdoms like France, which had an absolute monarchy, where the nobility (as opposed to the monarchy) had much less power than in England. 

As for annulments, they actually weren’t that uncommon or hard to get in historical Europe for those who could afford them. Henry VIII in all likelihood would have received an annulment from Catherine of Aragon had her nephew, Charles V, not been holding the Pope captive at the time. However, a dissolution of marriage for a monarch was certainly not secret. The annulment in the show makes no sense without some explanation but I doubt we’re going to get one. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by glowbug

[Moxie Cat]

My spec on ep 3 following ep 2 (which I have spent way too much time today thinking about!):

I think everyone calling the deaths of Theon, Pod, Jorah (my heart will break) are totally right....but no one seems to be mentioning Beric. I think Beric may bite it at Winterfell too - definitely by series end. What makes him interesting to me is that we have been led to believe that Beric's final death will have a big PURPOSE - and when we know that, we'll have insight into why Jon might have been brought back as well. I will miss the actor's awesome voice.

Why was Arya grilling Gendry on what a wight or WW was like? I think she's planning to shift into one, maybe as a secret mission to kill the NK. This isn't something she could actually tell anyone (except maybe Sansa) since no one knows she's a Faceless Man (and it would totally freak out most of them), and even if they did, it would seem like a crazy plan.

I have also been thinking more about what could be scaring Arya so badly that she's racing out of the crypts in the previews. Possibly the slaughter of all the woman and children, as mentioned. Hard to believe Arya would be scared simply by wights/WWs. But what if it was because the Stark family members were reanimated? We know that Rickon is down there, as are Ned (we think) and Lyanna, and maybe even Littlefinger's corpse (what did they do with him?). Wouldn't it be a shock if the GOT crew were able to film scenes with long-departed cast members and keep it a secret?

I've read elsewhere that only those killed by wights or WW can be reanimated - but then why is the NW so intent on burning bodies after their own battles? Is it an open question in the GOT world and/or in our world how wights are created?

And finally: it seems to me that Bran is ignoring his own superpowers in the "bait" plan. We know he can warg into animals and other humans, and influence events in the past. Can he warg/skinwalk into a dead thing, like a wight, WW, or Viserion? (Or heck, the NK's horse?!) I hope we see some of his other abilities in action again. 

[bubble sparkly]

If Beric does survive ep 3, I wonder if all this talk about his last life will end up being Chekhov’s gun and he will give someone the kiss of life in ep 5.

[Azi]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

True, but show Robert - and show Ned, show Dany, show Cersei, show everybody - believed that she was kidnapped and raped. On TV there is no doubt that this is what everybody believes.

I think Ned knew that Rhaegar didn't rape his sister, due to her naming her son Aegon Targaryen. He never uttered a word against him, but also of course never defended him and likely just nodded along when Robert started to rant.

I do wonder if the whole thing will be out to the whole of Westeros in the end or not. Even if Jon doesn't want to be king and would prefer to just not tell people about his claim, he might feel some sort of honor-bound to declare that his bio-dad wasn't a rapist or something like that. I do think he'll forever - rightfully - see Ned Stark as his true father, but he might cringe every time Rhaegar is brought up in that context. Plus, he always wanted to know about his mother and have people talk about her as a rape victim all the time might also not be to his liking?
(Of course they were still the spark that eventually lead to the war, but that's on a whole other paper and I don't think they care all that much tbh.)

[Morrigan2575]

36 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

think everyone calling the deaths of Theon, Pod, Jorah (my heart will break) are totally right....but no one seems to be mentioning Beric. I think Beric may bite it at Winterfell too - definitely by series end. 

Add in Gendry and Lyanna Mormont and you have the list from the Reddit Fleak. Which, after 802 I'm not sure is completely fake.

[Moxie Cat]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Add in Gendry and Lyanna Mormont and you have the list from the Reddit Fleak. Which, after 802 I'm not sure is completely fake.

Hmmm....I was actually thinking I would add Grey Worm and/or Missandei too. I can see Lyanna, possibly (though that seems a little extra on top of Jorah), but I'd be surprised if Gendry bit it....not because of the sex scene, but because he's the last Baratheon that we know of.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

The only argument Dany has in terms of bloodline is that Aerys (at least in the books, I’m not sure if it was mentioned in the show) disinherited Rhaegar’s children after Rhaegar’s death and Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone by his mother.

Exactly. Most people don't know this. By disinheriting Rhaegar and his children i.e. Jon, Aerys made Dany the direct heir to the throne after Viseryn died. Martin deliberately muddied Jon's claim to the Iron Throne so that he and his supporters couldn't simply step on and over Dany's claim because of gender like D&D are doing in the show. I always thought the purpose of this was to ensure that a marriage was the only way to resolve the rival claims.

Edited April 22, 2019 by SimoneS

[Constantinople]

52 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

My spec on ep 3 following ep 2 (which I have spent way too much time today thinking about!):

I think everyone calling the deaths of Theon, Pod, Jorah (my heart will break) are totally right....but no one seems to be mentioning Beric. I think Beric may bite it at Winterfell too - definitely by series end. What makes him interesting to me is that we have been led to believe that Beric's final death will have a big PURPOSE - and when we know that, we'll have insight into why Jon might have been brought back as well. I will miss the actor's awesome voice.

After what I felt was Barristan Selmy's underwhelming death in Season 5, I try not to get my hopes up about characters having a meaningful or purposed filled death. Still, anyone dying this late in the series has a good a chance of any of having a good death

[LadyChaos]

3 hours ago, Kate47 said:

I thought the party line about Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna was the widely accepted one. I'm positive it was Robert's point of view, and the reason Jon was able to hide for so long. 

I don't remember there being an announced annulment (tho correct me if I'm wrong). I imagine Rhaegar's wife had a solid idea of his desire for the Prince who was Promised; I doubt she knew about him hedging his bets with two Aegons.

The supreme tragedy of these events, to me, is that given time they may all have ironed themselves out but nobody actually gave them the chance to.

I think that likely only Robert and maybe Ned (thought his older brother and Father likely knew) that Rhaegar hadn't actually kidnapped and rapped Lyanna.  If 3 people knew, and two of them are dead; the last person I.E Robert....can say whatever he likes and everyone will believe him because Raeger and Lyanna were to busy missing from action to be ably to defend themselves.  We also won't know what Rhaegar told his men, because they all died or most of them did.  My bet is if any of the survivors knew the truth, they probably knew to keep it to themselves.

IMHO, I think Robert absolutely knew the truth, but he chose the narrative that allowed him to wage his war against the Targaeryens.  If he choose the truth, his options were to be a jilted man spurned by Lyanna Stark, and have all of Westeros know that she ran out on him for another man and the Starks broke faith and say or do nothing about it; or go to war with the Starks, his best friends family, over it.   Robert doesn't seem the man to idly sit by why the woman he covets runs away with another man.

We also know, from Gilly reading the diary, that the Maester who annulled his marriage and married him to Lyanna did it in secret.  So no one knows about it.

Edited April 22, 2019 by LadyChaos

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I keep expecting Meera Reed to reappear. Not much time left.

same

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Exactly. Most people don't know this. By disinheriting Rhaegar and his children i.e. Jon, Aerys made Dany the direct heir to the throne after Viseryn died. Martin deliberately muddied Jon claim to the Iron Throne so that he and his supporters couldn't simply step on and over Dany's claim because of gender like D&D are doing in the show. 

But that was not mentioned in the show, was that?

16 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Hmmm....I was actually thinking I would add Grey Worm and/or Missandei too. I can see Lyanna, possibly (though that seems a little extra on top of Jorah), but I'd be surprised if Gendry bit it....not because of the sex scene, but because he's the last Baratheon that we know of.

I'm convinced Lyanna lives, while Jorah dies. I wouldn't be surprised if he dies saving her life - talk about redempetion: banned and disowened for shaming his father's name and house, to saving his cousin and the lady of said house.

I really can't see both Misandei and Grey Worm surviving. Maybe she dies and he leaves with the insullied before Dany going to King's Landing. 

[Happy Harpy]

A poster (don't remember in which thread, I think it was one without spoilers) was speculating that the little girl with a scar could be a Faceless Man. I think it's an interesting idea. After the child assassin in Astapor, the zombie kids in 5x08 and the little birds in 6x10, beware the kiddies on this show.

Faye Marsay was papped in Seville with her hair ready for her wig, which means she could have been filming. So, a reappearance of the FM isn't impossible.

Cersei is in cahoots with the Iron Bank of Braavos. What if her "other plans for the Targaryen girl" involve some FM? Maybe one is even sent to hurt her dragons = her children, not her (at first).

[Moxie Cat]

15 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Faye Marsay was papped in Seville with her hair ready for her wig, which means she could have been filming. So, a reappearance of the FM isn't impossible.

Didn't Arya kill her? She could wear her face, especially if she wanted to kill someone while wearing a face that was unknown to all of Westeros. Using Faye Marsay would make the audience say "wha?" while still making sense (and the added bonus of involving a previous GOT actor for no "actual" reason). 

[DuckyinKy]

1 minute ago, Moxie Cat said:

Didn't Arya kill her? 

Yes she did, and put her face on the wall. 

[Moxie Cat]

38 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I always thought the purpose of this was to ensure that a marriage was the only way to resolve the rival claims.

And again, ties into the ending of the War of the Roses, which ASOIAF was loosely based on.

I doubt they will bring in the disinheritance at this late stage, though. I know people who are still confused as to who Rhaegar actually was, that his first wife was a Martell and that the Mountain had killed her (and thus Dorne's reason for vengeance against the Lannisters)....Yes, it was all mentioned on the show but a few more flashbacks to the sack of King's Landing would have helped some viewers. I just don't think they'll add more in-the-weeds history at this point.

[Happy Harpy]

23 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Didn't Arya kill her? She could wear her face, especially if she wanted to kill someone while wearing a face that was unknown to all of Westeros. Using Faye Marsay would make the audience say "wha?" while still making sense (and the added bonus of involving a previous GOT actor for no "actual" reason). 

Yes, she did, and she cut ther face -without much finesse, so not sure it was wearable.

I don't remember if you were hanging out on this thread when Faye Marsay was papped and Tom Wlaschiha (Jaqen) spotted in Seville last May, but it might have been the biggest WTF of all, at the time. Everybody thought we were done with Arya's Braavos arc -might be, still, and they were only there for the documentary.

[glowbug]

A few characters seem to have been marked for death this episode, though I'm not saying they'll all die.

1. Either Missandei or Grey Worm - If Friki is to be believed then Grey Worm definitely survives since he's at Tyrion's trial and I believe the actor was spotted in Seville so I lean more towards Missandei being the one to die if either of them does next episode.

2. Jorah - It seems like he's met all the necessary characters and reunited with everyone he should have in the last two seasons (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Sam, Lyanna Mormont, etc.) and he's on good terms with all of them. He might have met his narrative end.

3. Gendry - I'd swear he was a goner if the actor hadn't been seen in Seville and mentioned wrapping there. Having sex with Arya seems like a nail in the coffin because it's the classic Hollywood raise the emotional stakes for the person's death before killing them off cliché. Friki also says Gendry wasn't at Tyrion's trial. However, he is the last Baratheon and that does seem to be important, otherwise why would it be mentioned in the pre-coital conversation with Arya, and why have her visibly react to it. 

4. Podric - He's definitely not surviving episode 3. All the moments he and Brienne had, and showing how good he's become at fighting and having Brienne's approval. He also got to be part of the fireside chat just to remind the audience of his presence so the death hurts that much more. He's even featured by singing a song.

5. Theon - I'm as sure as I can be that Theon is dying at the battle of Winterfell. As much as I have come to like Theon, in part due to Alfie Allen's phenomenal acting, and as sad as I'll be when he does die, I will kind of be upset if he doesn't because I feel like it's sort of the perfect end to the character. He gets to die at Winterfell, his true home, protecting one of the Starks, his true family, after rescuing his biological sister, the only member of his biological family worth anything. It would be a beautiful, poetic ending, and I can't think of another end that I would like better. It fits with Friki's leak as well, which has Yara and not Theon at Tyrion's trial. 

I think it could be argued that episode two also foreshadowed Jaime and/or Brienne dying but I think Jaime still has too much unfinished business (Cersei, Brienne, and possibly Jon based entirely on book Jaime's arc, not on anything we've seen on the show). Despite Brienne becoming a knight, something that means a lot to her and something she's wanted for a long time, it didn't really feel like the conclusion to her story. I get the feeling she'll be one of the survivors at the end of the show. Also, if Friki is to be believed, Brienne is present at Tyrion's trial.

[LilaFowler]

I hope Gendry dies next week. That along with Jorah would be two solid, secondary character deaths.

I too was surprised that Meera never appeared but then they've made it a point that Bran is no longer Bran anymore. Meera is safer away from him at least as long as the NK is after him.

[LadyChaos]

39 minutes ago, LilaFowler said:

I hope Gendry dies next week. That along with Jorah would be two solid, secondary character deaths.

I too was surprised that Meera never appeared but then they've made it a point that Bran is no longer Bran anymore. Meera is safer away from him at least as long as the NK is after him.

First of all: HOW DARE YOU!  Gendry dying? Never! 

[Leila6]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

4 hours ago, glowbug said:

The only argument Dany has in terms of bloodline is that Aerys (at least in the books, I’m not sure if it was mentioned in the show) disinherited Rhaegar’s children after Rhaegar’s death and Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone by his mother.

Exactly. Most people don't know this. By disinheriting Rhaegar and his children i.e. Jon, Aerys made Dany the direct heir to the throne after Viseryn died. Martin deliberately muddied Jon's claim to the Iron Throne so that he and his supporters couldn't simply step on and over Dany's claim because of gender like D&D are doing in the show. I always thought the purpose of this was to ensure that a marriage was the only way to resolve the rival claims.

Even if Aerys has the authority to do this (which is highly debatable), you still run into the fact that the council post-Dance decided that male heirs always supersede female heirs. So, if Viserys has lived, he would have a decent argument for claiming the throne over Jon, but Dany’s claim really isn’t strong if you’re looking at it from inheritance rules. Now, if you’re considering the rule of might, her claim is tops.

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, Leila6 said:

Even if Aerys has the authority to do this (which is highly debatable), you still run into the fact that the council post-Dance decided that male heirs always supersede female heirs. So, if Viserys has lived, he would have a decent argument for claiming the throne over Jon, but Dany’s claim really isn’t strong if you’re looking at it from inheritance rules. Now, if you’re considering the rule of might, her claim is tops.

That also depends on if the show will follow book rules on dragon bonding. If it does then Rhaegal has likely bonded with Jon, and may side with him over Daenerys. 

And in that case I'd take Jon's forces over Dany's. 

Dany's Dothraki, Unsullied, a few Iron Islanders and 1 Dragon

vs

Jon's wildlings, Northmen, Valemen, Shape-shifting Assassin, All Knowing Eye of God, 1 Dragon and 1 Direwolf. 

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

First of all: HOW DARE YOU!  Gendry dying? Never! 

He had sex...we all know what happens in horror movies after someone has sex and Arya isn't going out so quickly (if at all) 😄

All I know about next week is a lot of people are going to die. I'm keeping the alcohol and tissues handy...assuming I have any tears left after Endgame. Damn you, HBO! Couldn't you skip a week to give some of us a breather?! 😩

Edited April 23, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[YaddaYadda]

I'm fully prepared for a bunch of characters to do (not I'm not), as long as they don't come back as wights, which I'm certain one or two of them will because why spare anyone's feelings!

[QuinnM]

11 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

First of all: HOW DARE YOU!  Gendry dying? Never! 

Do you think that they would set camera position, focus and Gendry to react to Arya’s scars without it being something that needs to happen for a future episode?