S05.E11: Dyatkovo

[J-Man]

Was anyone else thinking that Henry might run across the sketches of his parents (in disguise) that we've seen at the FBI? I guess it would have been awfully coincidental, but I considered that they might have gone there.

I thought it was interesting that in the final Oleg-Ruslan conversation in this episode, they made it clear that Oleg, with the status that comes from his father's position in the government, was benefiting from the same access to better shopping opportunities that they're actively trying to combat. And I wonder if Ruslan's refusal of Oleg's offer says something about the outcome of this story line. 

[Ina123]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm totally rooting for them, but ...

I'm certainly not.

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I agree with most of this, except I don't think the "rift" between Henry and his parents is the root cause of him wanting to go away. I'm not even sure rift is the word I'd use for their relationship with him. It implies animosity and resentment. We've seen a little resentment over Paige and his grades, but Henry isn't continuing to harp on it. He's not Paige

I explained myself badly.  I do not think being a spy is what caused Henry to be a little distant and "rift" was not the right word, (though I would bet that Phillip blames it on the spying).  If Phillip had a job where he could take Henry to computer classes and play catch with him in the yard every day, the result would probably be the same.  Most teenagers start developing their own interests and just do not want to hang out with mom and dad as much.  Phillip is realizing that he missed out on his son's childhood and he is not going to ever get that back, mostly due to his job.  Death cheated him out of knowing his father and now the job had cheated him out of Henry's early years.  Henry, himself, is quite happy.  He is going to be going to a fancy boarding school with a girl he likes...he is probably on cloud 9.

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think most people want a miserable ending for P and E. No one I know in the real world does. But, as I've said, I simply wouldn't spend a second of my time on a show where I hated the main characters so much I wished for a miserable ending for them.   For me, if I'm not invested in them, in a positive way, the show isn't worth my time. 

A good hero is nice, but what drives a plot and people's passions are great villains.  I do not think of them this way, but if some people think of P and E as horrible villains that must be stopped, they would happily tune in every week to see that outcome.  They are invested in the characters, but more to see their downfall then their success.

9 hours ago, tpplay said:

With every episode I hate the two leads more and more.  (Not their acting, of course - that's the only reason I watch.)  I'm actively hoping for them both getting killed in the series finale.  They.  Are.  Awful.

And not by comparison to anything.  It's not relative.  They're awful.

I used to waver, but once E killed the old lady who just happened to be at her workplace when they broke in.  I thought, "I'm right. These two horrible people deserve to die and the sooner the better."

The funny thing is that in some ways, to an American, E is just as bad as the older lady.  Actually, you can argue that the scared 16 year old had no choice, while E freely has chose to do everything she has done for her cause.   

[dubbel zout]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Phillip is realizing that he missed out on his son's childhood and he is not going to ever get that back, mostly due to his job.

Cue "Cat's in the Cradle." Heh.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, J-Man said:

Was anyone else thinking that Henry might run across the sketches of his parents (in disguise) that we've seen at the FBI? I guess it would have been awfully coincidental, but I considered that they might have gone there.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out a way they could contrive something like that to happen, but material like that is kept in the vault to preclude exactly that possibility, so the writers would've had to do some pretty fancy bullshitting to bring it across.

When Stan started talking to Henry about the vault itself, I wondered if the reveal would be something subtler -- Henry realizing that certain rooms in his own house are similarly soundproofed, or something like that. But it would be in keeping with this whole season's MO for the whole trip to be about revealing character and theme with no underlying plot significance.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Dev F

[fib]

55 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The funny thing is that in some ways, to an American, E is just as bad as the older lady.  Actually, you can argue that the scared 16 year old had no choice, while E freely has chose to do everything she has done for her cause.   

"To an American" is such an astute qualifier.  

I really dont think that E is as bad as this lady - E  is fighting for a cause she believes in.  She is a warrior.  In war, sometimes innocent people die, but it seems Elizabeth does try to limit the collateral damage, despite the body count piling up of late. (RIP, Hans) Anna, on the other hand, slaughtered war prisoners to save her herself. Yes, she was a child.  Yes, she was in a terrible position.  But what she did, ultimately, was awful.  

YMMV.  But to me, Anna is worse.  Especially as E is coming to realize that the Center may not be on the up and up, and she is beginnning to take measures to stop her continued involvement. Ultimately, soldiers are supposed to refuse orders that are immoral or not in keeping with the rules of war.  And while spying is outside that, I think Elizabeth is moving in that direction. 

[topanga]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Alternately, with all the Russia set ups?  Maybe Phil, Liz, and the kids really will move to Russia?

Wait, the building that Oleg and his cronies searched--wasn't that Gregory's apartment building from season 1? Maybe not, but I swear the low gate and the building facade looked eerily similar.

 

17 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I just can't see Elizabeth's actions as being dutiful or strong. It may be how I view Keri Russell's portrayal, but Elizabeth always strikes me as completely smug with a side of bemused condescension. I have almost a physical reaction to her lecturing another one of her victims. Putting her children in the thick of what she and Phillip do also doesn't do her favor; these kids grew up in American with a stylish mother who makes a point of whipping up food at a moment's notice from a fully stocked refrigerator. Why she thinks Paige or Henry will feel any sort of patriotism towards Russia or that she herself will prosper in her home country is a head scratcher

This is how I've always felt about Elizabeth. But you articulated it better than I ever could. Elizabeth is earnest, yes, but she's the biggest hypocrite. She despises the US for the cruelty it inflicts on its enemies, but she has no problem killing innocent people to further her country's agenda. And by innocent,  I'm not talking about the Russian woman from this episode, but Lisa, the wheat scientist, the man under the car, etc . 

In that way, she and Tuan are a lot alike . Tuan has no problems torturing poor Pasha because it might inspire his father to move them back to the Soviet Union  

[txhorns79]

Quote

Yeah, I was trying to figure out a way they could contrive something like that to happen, but material like that is kept in the vault to preclude exactly that possibility, so the writers would've had to do some pretty fancy bullshitting to bring it across.

Not to mention, from what I remember, the sketches don't really look like either Phillip or Elizabeth, so it would be pretty astonishing if Henry made the connection when someone else who similarly sees his parents nearly every day (Stan) never was able to do so. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

I think we're going to find out the answer to that very soon!

The way this season is going, I bet the next couple of episodes are going to focus on Paige making peace with her eyebrows.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention, from what I remember, the sketches don't really look like either Phillip or Elizabeth, so it would be pretty astonishing if Henry made the connection when someone else who similarly sees his parents nearly every day (Stan) never was able to do so. 

I think that is the kind of thing that you can stare right at and not make a connection to at all. To Henry, his parents are his parents. They make him meals, tell him what to do, play catch and watch tv with him, all the mundane quotidian things you do with family. The sketches would be of "criminals," a category that generally doesn't include parents or at least not for Henry.

On another subject, recently there was a study about happiness and it turned out that people who didn't expect to be happy were actually happier overall than people who had an expectation of happiness. Remember when Paige asked Philip if he was happy as a boy? "We didn't think like that."

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, topanga said:

This is how I've always felt about Elizabeth. But you articulated it better than I ever could. Elizabeth is earnest, yes, but she's the biggest hypocrite. She despises the US for the cruelty it inflicts on its enemies, but she has no problem killing innocent people to further her country's agenda. And by innocent,  I'm not talking about the Russian woman from this episode, but Lisa, the wheat scientist, the man under the car, etc . 

 

But that's so central to her character--I mean, people like her almost can't be any other way. She always thinks she's right, so she's so so blind to the obvious times she's not that different. In season 1 where Elizabeth was all "Have you heard the way the Americans talk about us?" Philip said "Have you heard the way you talk about them?"

Also because she's always so sure she's right, whenever she wants to go against her own code she justifies it to herself in such a way that she doesn't have to extend the same kind of compassion to somebody else. She's all too capable of doing a thing herself that she'd punish someone else for or see as a sign of weakness. It's just always different for her. And she's often incapable of relating to somebody at all unless she sees something she thinks is good about herself reflected in them. Gorp Guy is good because he shares Elizabeth's desire to save the world, Betty was relate-able because her husband fought on the right side in WWII, Paige's church interest was okay once Elizabeth figured out that Paige had inherited her own desire to save the world, Young-Hee was okay because she was an immigrant mom who felt America was ridiculous. 

Would she relate to the sexual abuse of a Nazi collaborator? Probably not. Elizabeth didn't use see abuse as an excuse to kill Soviets. They are nothing alike, in her mind. 

7 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention, from what I remember, the sketches don't really look like either Phillip or Elizabeth, so it would be pretty astonishing if Henry made the connection when someone else who similarly sees his parents nearly every day (Stan) never was able to do so. 

Definitely. Most of the time those sketches don't, I think.

4 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The way this season is going, I bet the next couple of episodes are going to focus on Paige making peace with her eyebrows.

I was thinking today of that Philip/Tuan moment and how Tuan seems so weirdly handled this season. The whole Morozov plot is *great* in terms of the raw material it brings. They're an immigrant Russian couple relating differently to the country. Evgenia even found an American boyfriend like Elizabeth did. They're both parents. Tuan started out with all these extreme views about the Cause, like Elizabeth. But underneath it turned out he was hiding compassion for his foster family, something Philip would relate to. Plus they're set up like an alternate family to parallel their own.

Even more interesting, Elizabeth is dealing with somebody who's like her before she got softer, somebody who would probably think her own kids were soft. And in a season where they planned to have Henry announce he wants to go to a fancy boarding school for the elite and throwing away toast that was insufficiently prepared to his taste, Philip seems to find some relief in talking to Tuan over their own relative poverty as kids. There could have been some parallels with Philip and Tuan and Elizabeth's and Paige's never-ending interest in each other.

And yet it feels like they somehow didn't manage to make this work as a story the way they have so much in the past with characters like Young-Hee or Kimmie or even more minor sources. Philip hangs out with Alexie, but beyond his question about the wheat it's unclear how he's relating to him a lot of the time. And the stuff with Tuan just seemed to peter out and be unimportant. When he ran off to call his brother (if that's what he was doing) it didn't seem like Philip and Elizabeth were all that engaged with him. It didn't hit the way things had with, for instance, Lucia. They never talk about Tuan. He's doesn't command the kind of attention William did. 

Earlier there were these hints about Tuan really wanting them to be around, though we don't really know why since apparently he used their absence to call his brother. Was he that lonely? Is he in some sort of tailspin we don't see for unknown reasons? Philip does seem to still go over to see him just to hang out for appearances sake, like he did in this ep, but the scene wasn't even used to say anything about Tuan. They're sitting there watching somebody sing this Russian war song but they might as well be watching the A-Team. It gives Philip a flashback but there's no explanation of why they're watching it. Did they come across it on TV? Did somebody bring it from the Morozov's? Was it Tuan's idea to watch because it was Russian and he wants to know Philip? Philip never watches things in Russian with Elizabeth, but he agreed to it here. Why? Is it significant?

It seems like Philip might talk to Tuan in ways that brought out his feelings about Henry the way he did before with Kimmie...but he doesn't. It's like the only reason he talked to him was for him to say he lacked food as a kid in case we didn't get that and that was a clue to his father being a guard.

Maybe there's something they're hiding and that's the reason for this, but at this point I can't be as intrigued by the flashbacks and hints as I would have been because I don't trust that they're not just what they appear to me, that there's nothing more to them than "Philip was poor" and yet "Philip had happy memories of his father anyway." I hope the point of Philip's backstory isn't simply that it's "Also Russian but not necessary like Elizabeth's."

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention, from what I remember, the sketches don't really look like either Phillip or Elizabeth, so it would be pretty astonishing if Henry made the connection when someone else who similarly sees his parents nearly every day (Stan) never was able to do so. 

Philip looked like a King of the Hill character. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, I was trying to figure out a way they could contrive something like that to happen, but material like that is kept in the vault to preclude exactly that possibility, so the writers would've had to do some pretty fancy bullshitting to bring it across.

When Stan started talking to Henry about the vault itself, I wondered if the reveal would be something subtler -- Henry realizing that certain rooms in his own house are similarly soundproofed, or something like that. But it would be in keeping with this whole season's MO for the whole trip to be about revealing character and theme with no underlying plot significance.

This is a show that not only found a way to let Martha get out of the US alive, but that kept her from ever realizing that "Clark" was married to someone else with a whole family of his own or having any kind of real confrontation with him about what he did to her. They don't seem particularly interested in contriving ways for the secrets and lies to come full circle and having big revelation moments. If anything, they seem to prefer these little near miss moments where if everything aligned someone could put it together-but then doesn't. I would not be shocked if Henry and Stan never figure out who they really are, at least while the status quo is maintained. Though if they're really going to try to get out, that could change quickly. 

[qtpye]

It  makes you wonder if the Centre asked Elizabeth to strap a bomb to herself and walk into a building (making sure Phillip was also there, since he would be impossible to control once she was gone)...would she do it?  They would assure her to not worry about Paige and Mathew, because after the suicide bombing, the Centre will kidnap them and raise them into the life.

[pavlovsbell]

58 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Earlier there were these hints about Tuan really wanting them to be around, though we don't really know why since apparently he used their absence to call his brother. Was he that lonely? Is he in some sort of tailspin we don't see for unknown reasons? Philip does seem to still go over to see him just to hang out for appearances sake, like he did in this ep, but the scene wasn't even used to say anything about Tuan. They're sitting there watching somebody sing this Russian war song but they might as well be watching the A-Team. It gives Philip a flashback but there's no explanation of why they're watching it. Did they come across it on TV? Did somebody bring it from the Morozov's? Was it Tuan's idea to watch because it was Russian and he wants to know Philip? Philip never watches things in Russian with Elizabeth, but he agreed to it here. Why? Is it significant?

It seems like Philip might talk to Tuan in ways that brought out his feelings about Henry the way he did before with Kimmie...but he doesn't. It's like the only reason he talked to him was for him to say he lacked food as a kid in case we didn't get that and that was a clue to his father being a guard.

Maybe there's something they're hiding and that's the reason for this, but at this point I can't be as intrigued by the flashbacks and hints as I would have been because I don't trust that they're not just what they appear to me, that there's nothing more to them than "Philip was poor" and yet "Philip had happy memories of his father anyway." I hope the point of Philip's backstory isn't simply that it's "Also Russian but not necessary like Elizabeth's."

Tuan and Philip were not watching Cranes (the Russian song). They were watching The Fly (1958). I don't know if the film about a man who turns into a monster triggered Philip's flashback, or if it was the combination of Tim's diary and Philip feeling like he doesn't know his children, especially Henry. The music started when Philip arrived at the Ekert house, so I think it's something that was weighing on him before, hence his detachment with Tuan. But the monster aspect and the idea of change set up the theme of the episode. I thought Philip remembering a happy time with his father played into his reluctance to kill Natalie. His father did horrible things and presumably killed Soviet prisoners, but he loved his family. Philip does terrible things but wants to change. If you can't change and leave the past behind and become a better person, then what's the point? Should you be held accountable for following orders or doing things that you would never do now, is the thing I think Philip was asking Elizabeth, and that's all related to his flashbacks. I'm still super interested in Philip's flashbacks, and I really want to know about his father's death and what happened to his brother.

But I agree with the general sentiment about Tuan. I've been extremely interested in him and his story, but he and the Morozov family have been used almost exclusively as lenses for Philip and Elizabeth. They don't jump off the screen as interesting characters unto themselves like William, which is disappointing.

Edited May 18, 2017 by pavlovsbell

[Ina123]

26 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip looked like a King of the Hill character. 

There's another one that the landlord worked with the artist on. It's of Phillip and it really close. Even got the curly hair.

And then there's my OCD over the mole on Elizabeth's lip. C'mon people...it's right there.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, pavlovsbell said:

Tuan and Philip were not watching Cranes (the Russian song). They were watching The Fly (1958). I don't know if the film about a man who turns into a monster triggered Philip's flashback, or if it was the combination of Tim's diary and Philip feeling like he doesn't know his children, especially Henry.

OMG, I am so in your debt that you noticed that. I heard the song before he walked in and thought that it was just starting before he walked in but was on the TV. I knew they weren't watching the movie Cranes are Flying because it was in color, but didn't recognize the exact movie. Surprising since I'm definitely very familiar with it!

18 minutes ago, pavlovsbell said:

But I agree with the general sentiment about Tuan. I've been extremely interested in him and his story, but he and the Morozov family have been used almost exclusively as lenses for Philip and Elizabeth. They don't jump off the screen as interesting characters unto themselves like William, which is disappointing.

Yes, and even as reflections I can't come up with too many moments that really resonated as giving me something to think about or learn about P&E. 

[Ellaria]

18 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I just can't see Elizabeth's actions as being dutiful or strong. It may be how I view Keri Russell's portrayal, but Elizabeth always strikes me as completely smug with a side of bemused condescension. I have almost a physical reaction to her lecturing another one of her victims. Putting her children in the thick of what she and Phillip do also doesn't do her favor; these kids grew up in American with a stylish mother who makes a point of whipping up food at a moment's notice from a fully stocked refrigerator. Why she thinks Paige or Henry will feel any sort of patriotism towards Russia or that she herself will prosper in her home country is a head scratcher.  

1 hour ago, topanga said:

This is how I've always felt about Elizabeth. But you articulated it better than I ever could. Elizabeth is earnest, yes, but she's the biggest hypocrite. She despises the US for the cruelty it inflicts on its enemies, but she has no problem killing innocent people to further her country's agenda. And by innocent,  I'm not talking about the Russian woman from this episode, but Lisa, the wheat scientist, the man under the car, etc . 

In that way, she and Tuan are a lot alike . Tuan has no problems torturing poor Pasha because it might inspire his father to move them back to the Soviet Union  

These two statements perfectly summarize my conflicted feelings about Elizabeth. She is a fascinating character. I spend most of my time trying to understand her psychologically and emotionally. Unlike others, I can watch shows with characters that I dislike, especially when they are as well-written as Elizabeth. Characters that are not "like me" and that respond differently to situations than I would make for compelling viewing.

Her last comment about "going home" intrigues me. At face value, she means going back to Russia. I wonder if that will take on a different meaning for her eventually. To me, going home has symbolic meaning as well: going to a place that's safe, a place of comfort, a place where you can be yourself without pretense.

How does Phillip define "going home?" My guess is that he has little interest in going back to Russia. If that's what E wanted, would he follow her there? I wonder if his love/loyalty for E would override his instincts about what is best for Paige and Henry.

Perhaps last week's wedding ceremony is a precursor to the eventual end of their union. I don't think that the family unit survives.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

How does Phillip define "going home?" My guess is that he has little interest in going back to Russia. If that's what E wanted, would he follow her there? I wonder if his love/loyalty for E would override his instincts about what is best for Paige and Henry.

Philip was trying to get Elizabeth to go home (meaning Russia) all last season. He would gladly follow her there. When Gabriel offered it he meant it as a gift to them. She wouldn't follow him there last year--she's offering to go there with him for him now. When she asked if he'd go there with Martha if the kids were grown she was acknowledging his desire to retire back home. (Of course he'd rather just stay in the US and retire, but that's not how they do it.)

I don't think either one thinks that Russia is bad for the children. It would be hard for them, of course, but people live there. Philip has never expressed any objection to living in Russia with or without the children. He's spoken of it as a good thing.

I'm not sure how it would work out, but I wonder if them going back to the USSR might not be the best solution for the kids. If they left without being caught they might be able to just say they were moving out of the country. The kids could keep their IDs and their passports and in a few years study or travel wherever they wanted, perhaps. Maybe there's some reason that could never happen, but it seems logical to me.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Not to mention, from what I remember, the sketches don't really look like either Phillip or Elizabeth, so it would be pretty astonishing if Henry made the connection when someone else who similarly sees his parents nearly every day (Stan) never was able to do so. 

I think this one captured him pretty well, they got the eyes, sad with down turned lids.  Sideburns are the same, all they have to do is make the hair black and curly, remove the side sweep.  That apartment super paid attention.  Trying different hair on spies they know use disguises seems like a no brainer to me really.  Anyway, there is something quite "Philip" about this one. 

I was kind of surprised that Henry didn't see them, though that might have been pretty contrived.

[sugarbaker design]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

but I wonder if them going back to the USSR might not be the best solution for the kids.

That would be my favorite ending, E&P bringing the kiddies back to the motherland.  You think Henry's moody now?

Philip:  Henry, I have good news and bad news.

Henry:  Good news first.

Philip:  Your mother and I agree that you should go to a new school

Henry:  And the bad news?

Philip:  The school's in Moscow.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sugarbaker design

[Umbelina]

Anyone want to photo chop that sketch of Phillip by simply adding his real hair and removing those glasses?  I may try, but I think I'd suck at it.

[dubbel zout]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was kind of surprised that Henry didn't see [the sketches of Philip and Elizabeth], though that might have been pretty contrived.

For a while, they were posted in the vault, so Henry wouldn't have seen them.

I'm always amazed that police sketches can lead to someone recognizing the person, because they never seem all that accurate to me. That's probably my lack of spatial awareness, or whatever the neurological term is.

[ahpny]

Quote

Loved that Stan told Henry the truth about what the FBI can do to people- make them have difficulty trusting anyone and ruins relationships. I think that took some of Henry's enthusiasm away. And showed Stan's own burnout too. 

Quote

Stan did the right thing. He saw that Henry had "star spangled eyes" and couldn't let him think about going into the FBI without letting him know about the emotional cost or toll it could take on someone. 

And also, Stan explained it in a way that perfectly understandable and relatable for a 14 year old boy. He knows his audience sometimes.

Quote

This woman was probably the inspiration for Natalie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Makarova

The presumptive real-life inspiration for “Natalie” was born in Smolensk, which I think is the same town where Elizabeth is supposed to have come from. It’s probably not accidental that the writers chose Smolensk as Elizabeth’s home town. It's known for being near the eastern border of Russia and periodically overrun throughout history by various invaliding armies, most notably and recently, the Nazis. Hence, lots of suffering.

[Umbelina]

OK, totally down and dirty, didn't look at a photo of Rhys, just tried to remove the glasses without destroying what eyebrows I could see, and sloppy job on his hair following the hairline exposed on the right.  Honestly, did most of this in Paint, that's how much it sucks...but still, I see a resemblance.  I would have thought they would also have the sketch artist remove the glass and show him with no hair at all, so they could add various styles, since they are well aware he's in disguise.  I had to blow it out a bit with light because I couldn't cover the glasses without leaving the trace in another way.

Lost my better program and haven't learned the new one yet.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Umbelina

[Ina123]

I definitely see Phillip in that sketch.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:17 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree that the story of the young girl who was forced to shoot soldiers was hard to swallow.  I see that from post above, this never happened during that time. That whole story seemed too contrived to me AND I was frustrated by how P & E handled it. If they aren't sure that she is the actual woman, then grill her at a time and location where her husband would not have to be killed too.  And to do it in the home....now their adult children's home has a marred memory of the brutal murder of both their parents.  P & E could have done it elsewhere and made it appear to be an accident.  Their approach was just stupid and needlessly cruel.  I think I've turned the corner and from now on, will root for their take down.  I've been understanding of them to this point, but, naaay.  They need to go down. 

I almost feel sorry for Stan.  Regardless, of his explanation, the fact that he brought a family member of Russian spies into his office........there are no excuses. 

This  episode made it appear that Oleg and his partner aren't very competent. Are they really that ignorant? 

Thanks to everyone with the history lesson - I hadn't realized the WWII story was such garbage.  Lazy writing.  I was not surprised that P couldn't pull the trigger but E did, though I was surprised she now wants to go home.  She can't truly think they can bring the kids to the USSR, can she?

And of course if she did go home she would be severely disappointed in the corruption.

On Oleg and his partner - they can't be that ignorant.....Oleg is aware enough that the store his family shops at is not available to others that he offered to get his partner "in" so he could buy things otherwise unavailable to him.  Or perhaps they can't make the leap to that the very fact the elite have special shops for better food IS corruption, and invites additional corruption?  The secretary facing long hard time but being convinced it wasn't going to happen was sad - I can't decide if she's right, or if she's not bright enough to realize she's a small fish that would be sacrificed.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

'

As I said, I did nothing to it but sloppily add hair and remove the glasses.  The eyebrows were tough because the glasses covered them...but yeah, I think that sketch is damn good.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:58 AM, qtpye said:

This season has been disappointing and a little ridiculous.  Really, a kid from the local school paper is just wondering around the FBI with Stan?  In my work, if anyone comes to visit for one second, I have to clear it with security, who will then issue the person a badge.  Even if it is cleared, there are many places they would never have access.

 

Certainly you'd think the FBI would be different, but let's remember back in the 1980's there wasn't as much - if any - general building security.  The only thing that would have stopped anyone from wandering around my office floor was the receptionist (who was useless at that - I found opposing counsel wandering around past my office one day; apparently she had given him directions to someone's office instead of calling them to come out to get him).  So much of this office building security is post- 9/11 related.  Which makes me question why E needed to stop at a security desk when she went into the psych's office.....

I'm trying to think back - I was a law clerk for Dept of Labor back in the last 1970's - I don't recall any security at all.

[Umbelina]

I wonder.  I kind of feel even the FBI had a type of "bring your kid to work day" and just got permission, gave instructions to make sure nothing secret was out.  It's not like the left Henry alone, or he was opening file cabinets or doors on his own.

Aside from that, anything the KGB wants to know about the layout at their office?  They already know, and the FBI knows they do, because of Martha.  Mail Robot is known, was bugged.  Gaad's office is known, was bugged.  The only room Martha never entered was the Vault, but she discussed the Vault with him several times.

There is nothing new Henry would have been allowed to "pick up on" really.

[TheBride]

There's no way out for them. The only direction the plot can take is the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the KGB breakup. The KGB will NOT let them stay in the US--alive as x-agents. They must "go home" (to Russia).

I don't like Elizabeth--she's crazy. He's not.

[Gurkel]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

These two statements perfectly summarize my conflicted feelings about Elizabeth. She is a fascinating character. I spend most of my time trying to understand her psychologically and emotionally. Unlike others, I can watch shows with characters that I dislike, especially when they are as well-written as Elizabeth. Characters that are not "like me" and that respond differently to situations than I would make for compelling viewing.

Her last comment about "going home" intrigues me. At face value, she means going back to Russia. I wonder if that will take on a different meaning for her eventually. To me, going home has symbolic meaning as well: going to a place that's safe, a place of comfort, a place where you can be yourself without pretense.

How does Phillip define "going home?" My guess is that he has little interest in going back to Russia. If that's what E wanted, would he follow her there? I wonder if his love/loyalty for E would override his instincts about what is best for Paige and Henry.

Perhaps last week's wedding ceremony is a precursor to the eventual end of their union. I don't think that the family unit survives.

I can't even figure out what P & E and the Centre are doing anymore. I get that they're fighting for Soviet ideals, but are those ideals even realistic anymore? I think Oleg is learning the hard way that the USSR is not the place he thought it was--or is supposed to be. And I think Philip has boarded that train, too. 

[TaurusRose]

18 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think most people want a miserable ending for P and E. No one I know in the real world does. But, as I've said, I simply wouldn't spend a second of my time on a show where I hated the main characters so much I wished for a miserable ending for them.   For me, if I'm not invested in them, in a positive way, the show isn't worth my time. 

I disagree. I want an end equal to their deeds.  If they wind up with bullets in the back of their heads, so be it.  The KGB decided Anna needed to die despite circumstances, I want the same for them.  I am not fans of Philip and Elizabeth.  I don't empathize with them and don't care if they get what they truly deserve, but I wouldn't be surprised if they got some kind of happy ending. I can absolutely watch a show with despicable characters, it's not a waste of my time.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/16/2017 at 10:00 PM, PinkRibbons said:

The interrogation of Natalie drove me nuts because the first thing they should have done was make her show them the oldest photos of herself that they could find.

Absolutely. And that is the sort of thing they've done all along - gone through the home first, before taking action. 

On 5/17/2017 at 3:36 AM, Ina123 said:

BTW, was the interrogation of a mentally ill person by the KGB guy possibly Misha?

That's what I thought. Or was it that's what I hoped (in that we'd see him again).

On 5/17/2017 at 7:22 AM, Novel8 said:

There was a long shot of the room showing a pool of blood on the floor...BTW, remember its just a TV show, did you actually expect to see the brains popping out?

I've seen brain splatter on a number of shows. Very convincing splatter. But this one, not so much. 

On 5/17/2017 at 7:58 AM, qtpye said:

This season has been disappointing and a little ridiculous.  Really, a kid from the local school paper is just wondering around the FBI with Stan?  In my work, if anyone comes to visit for one second, I have to clear it with security, who will then issue the person a badge.  Even if it is cleared, there are many places they would never have access.

I'm pretty sure I saw something like a badge attached to Henry's belt. I thought it was a visitor's badge and that he'd been approved. Seems like the FBI would actually be pretty open to a kid from a high school paper (or was it middle school), they do like to present a good image.

On 5/17/2017 at 11:22 AM, Erin9 said:

Maybe they're going somewhere with the plane flashback, but it sure isn't clear yet. And it is frustrating. 

I'm certain they're going somewhere with the flashbacks. Each one has had a little more information in it. This is the first time (I think) we've clearly seen his father.

2 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

Certainly you'd think the FBI would be different, but let's remember back in the 1980's there wasn't as much - if any - general building security.  The only thing that would have stopped anyone from wandering around my office floor was the receptionist (who was useless at that - I found opposing counsel wandering around past my office one day; apparently she had given him directions to someone's office instead of calling them to come out to get him).  So much of this office building security is post- 9/11 related.  Which makes me question why E needed to stop at a security desk when she went into the psych's office.....

Even in the 80's there was plenty of security at places that dealt with classified material. My husband worked for a company that had DoD contracts, and I couldn't go in without being checked out and given a badge at the door. 

[sistermagpie]

57 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm certain they're going somewhere with the flashbacks. Each one has had a little more information in it. This is the first time (I think) we've clearly seen his father.

Nah, the father's face has been clearly shown in close-up. But this is the first time we saw the guy happy, so that was new.

I'm not sure we really have gotten much more information. Though the costume designer posted a picture of the costumes. Those are actual vintage 40s clothes that she distressed even more. I've always liked that you can see how frayed the collars of young Philip's clothes are, and that there's often holes in his shirt.

Though it's also probably good to remember that all of Philip's memories of his father would have to be when he was 6 and under, so maybe that's why they're committed to having them all be wordless and out-of-context. I do wonder about the decision to never include the brother after that first one. Like in this flashback I was looking for him, thinking maybe the father was chasing both the kids around. Even in the one reference Philip made to him it seemed like the brother was a clearer figure in his life, like his mom was. So, like, shouldn't he be in the scene where the father brings home 3 (not 4) hunks of bread? Is there a reason he's not in the scene with the bloody boots? Or these scene where they're playing?

I wonder if the flashbacks would come across differently if we had more context for those two. Because right now it almost seems as if Philip only remembers/thinks about his father because his childhood flashbacks are all about him or Philip himself. If the father is the mystery figure and everyone else is supposed to be familiar, why play it the opposite to the audience? Philip could have dropped in references to the other two when he told the milk story or mentioned the icicles or whatever.

Or maybe there's a story there and there's a reason they've held it back.

Edited May 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[White Sheep]

8 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip looked like a King of the Hill character. 

Elizabeth looks like Peggy Hill 

[Dowel Jones]

So, it is true about the Hills?  Texas won't know what to think.

[Bretton]

Re: what will ultimately happen to P & E, what I find myself wondering about is to what degree the show-runners feel a kind of pressure to let these anti-heroes/ironic protagonists off "easy". Some on this forum say they look forward to justice coming in the form of something like a bullet to the back of the head. I just can't see that happening. At the very least both P&E will survive. I just don't see the show-runners having it any other way. But under what kind of circumstances, that I don't know.

And I'm even more fascinated with this question: how long have the show-runners known how they want this all to land? Does anyone know if they've discussed this in interviews? Now that they're beginning the writing of the final season, I've got to believe they know by now. But I wonder how long ago they came to a resolution about that? Too many shows have ended anti-climactically because the writers just weren't planning ahead adequately. Yes, I'm looking firmly at you Lost! I'm hoping The Americans can buck that trend.

[crgirl412]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

'

As I said, I did nothing to it but sloppily add hair and remove the glasses.  The eyebrows were tough because the glasses covered them...but yeah, I think that sketch is damn good.

The eyes are excellent but the nose is too wide and the upper lip is a tad too full for someone to say that is Philip Jennings.   

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Personally, I don't blame a single war survivor for doing what they had to do to stay alive, especially that particular war, where so many were forced to do things that were horrific, just to live another day.  Whether it was taking gold from corpses teeth, or leading newly arrived children to the Gas Chambers or the creepy medical experiments if they were twins, what choice did any of them really have?  I would have a very hard time judging any concentration camp survivors, or prisoners, as Natalie certainly was. 

My understanding, in terms of who gets punished through the (internationals/war crimes) court system was that concentration camp prisoners could not be charged. However anyone who wore a government or military uniform of the Nazis could be tried. 

14 hours ago, J-Man said:

I thought it was interesting that in the final Oleg-Ruslan conversation in this episode, they made it clear that Oleg, with the status that comes from his father's position in the government, was benefiting from the same access to better shopping opportunities that they're actively trying to combat. And I wonder if Ruslan's refusal of Oleg's offer says something about the outcome of this story line. 

I had a variation on your question. Would Oleg get in trouble for bringing someone into the shop who didn't normally have access? 

[SusanSunflower]

One of the things I learned from the first chapters of Tony Judt's book PostWar was that (iirc) most Nazis in the countryside were not prosecuted and in many cases remained in their local leadership positions post-war (and many had held positions in local government and professions prior to the war and the Nazi party).  There was not a lot of will to utterly disrupt the functioning of both local governance but also generational hierarchies of status and influence. The wealth and influential pre-Nazi, became Nazi party members and usually facilitated the war effort, sometimes engaging in atrocities, and after the war they largely just took off their swastikas and went about their business -- at times, with some individuals, despite the strenuous efforts of their victims to pursue post-war prosecution.  Judgment at Nurenberg used to be one of my favorite movies.  Rather like Vichy France,  "we did what we had to do to survive" shielded a lot of folks from prosecution and allowed them to live out their days, sometimes somewhat covertly but often protected by a wall of polite silence. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Fouts]

We happened to live near Washington, DC in 1984-1985...right around the timeline of this show.  During those years, we got to see the FBI building on a public tour.  I have no idea what the security is like at the FBI now, but I can tell you a little what it was like then.  

To take a tour, all we had to do was show up at a certain time.  There was no need to make advanced reservations or get security checks.  While my husband was a military officer, he wasn't in uniform so that didn't make any difference either way.  The only restriction I recall was that we had to stay closely together as a group and they kept us all moving along at a good pace.  Once I tried to linger for a moment to better see a display they'd just pointed out, but immediately I was told to catch up to the group.  They kept us corralled pretty tightly from front to back.  

While we never toured the White House during those two years, we visited many other DC sites, and the FBI tour had the highest security of anyplace we experienced then.  I've been back to DC a few times since, and each visit I'm struck by the exponential increases in security.  

[Ina123]

I had to laugh when Oleg asked his partner if he wanted to go to the grocery store with him - a store that Oleg would have to sneak him into. They are investigating corruption in the food supply and distribution and Oleg suggests a bit of corruption. That totally explains how stupid it all was.

[whiporee]

On 5/17/2017 at 2:17 PM, Umbelina said:

Maybe Phil, Liz, and the kids really will move to Russia?

I'm starting to think that is the only thing that makes sense for the final season -- that it take place in Russia. It's the only real justification for how much time we've spent there and for all the pieces that are now part of that scene. Otherwise, why bring back Martha or deal with Misha only to send him home? Why would we care about any of this Oleg stuff unless the show is setting up context for its final season.

Then The Americans deals with the other side of the title -- that we have transplanted "Americans" dealing wiht the Soviet Union as it collapses. 

I doubt this is where they are going, but at least it would put a lot of what we've seen this year into perspective insteadof jst killing a lot of time.

Edited May 19, 2017 by whiporee

[qtpye]

52 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I'm starting to think that is the only thing that makes sense for the final season -- that it take place in Russia. It's the only real justification for how much time we've spent there and for all the pieces that are now part of that scene. Otherwise, why bring back Martha or deal with Misha only to send him home? Why would we care about any of this Oleg stuff unless the show is setting up context for its final season.

Then The Americans deals with the other side of the title -- that we have transplanted "Americans" dealing wiht the Soviet Union as it collapses. 

I doubt this is where they are going, but at least it would put a lot of what we've seen this year.  

You just blew my mind.  I had never considered that.  It would put some of the tediousness of this season into perspective.

[Captain Asshat]

On 5/17/2017 at 11:11 AM, sistermagpie said:

Well, really, that makes it a bad idea to make her 16 at all, because she was a minor. The link in the thread above is pretty great as a real-life basis for this character, but that woman seemed to have been a soldier who got separated from her unit. She was still young, but not Paige's age. I think the backstory of that woman would have worked better, and she still could have, all these years later, had a change of heart and wanted to put that past behind her. And they also still could have given her a situation where she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive rather than just killing Soviets for fun, so she could still be sympathetic.

P&E had close relatives fight and die at the hands of the Nazis. As a second-gen Holocaust survivor whose grandmother was betrayed by someone and subsequently sent to Auschwitz and killed, I can tell you with much certainty that collaborators were hated during and after the war. If those collaborators actively killed their own people? No one alive during that time period, or who lost relatives due to collaborator action, would ever pity a collaborator. And, if you fall in that category and are a trained KGB agent, you shoot. Lady never had a chance.

[Hanahope]

I was a bit surprised by Elizabeth's comment that the FBI/Stan wouldn't "get" Henry to join them.  I thought that was the KGB's plan, to place children of spies into more secure positions, like the FBI, where they could pass along documents and information.

I wonder if the Center would even let Philip and Elizabeth return to the USSR, given that they seem to be the only spies they have in the US.  It'll sure be quite a culture shock for Paige and Henry.  Paige, at least with knowledge, might accept it, but I can totally see Henry being a big rebel.

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I was a bit surprised by Elizabeth's comment that the FBI/Stan wouldn't "get" Henry to join them.  I thought that was the KGB's plan, to place children of spies into more secure positions, like the FBI, where they could pass along documents and information.

Excellent point. I didn't think about that. On the other hand, maybe it was just reactive, especially since they had such a struggle with Paige and Pastor Tim in the beginning (who "got" her, but only for a while). 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

I'm starting to think that is the only thing that makes sense for the final season -- that it take place in Russia. It's the only real justification for how much time we've spent there and for all the pieces that are now part of that scene. Otherwise, why bring back Martha or deal with Misha only to send him home? Why would we care about any of this Oleg stuff unless the show is setting up context for its final season.

I don't think any of that requires the Jennings to move to Russia. Mischa's important because he's Philip's son and shows how the system and his job continues to keep actual people apart. Martha is showing basically the same thing. I don't think the show's particularly interested in an American family adjusting to Moscow for a whole season.

31 minutes ago, Captain Asshat said:

P&E had close relatives fight and die at the hands of the Nazis. As a second-gen Holocaust survivor whose grandmother was betrayed by someone and subsequently sent to Auschwitz and killed, I can tell you with much certainty that collaborators were hated during and after the war. If those collaborators actively killed their own people? No one alive during that time period, or who lost relatives due to collaborator action, would ever pity a collaborator. And, if you fall in that category and are a trained KGB agent, you shoot. Lady never had a chance.

Yeah, I agree. I'm surprised at people not getting that she would not be seen as a victim. Even if we're sympathetic about her being raped and her family being killed, she chose to kill for Nazis in order to survive. She survived for 40 years living a good life. Eventually her crimes caught up with her.

Elsewhere someone referred to this missions as "busywork" which I think showed how disconnected many people are today to how people who lived through this felt. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Captain Asshat said:

P&E had close relatives fight and die at the hands of the Nazis. As a second-gen Holocaust survivor whose grandmother was betrayed by someone and subsequently sent to Auschwitz and killed, I can tell you with much certainty that collaborators were hated during and after the war. If those collaborators actively killed their own people? No one alive during that time period, or who lost relatives due to collaborator action, would ever pity a collaborator. And, if you fall in that category and are a trained KGB agent, you shoot. Lady never had a chance.

Thank you for this insight. It does change my view of the scene. The show clearly wanted to present it as a moral quandary for P&E, by making Natalie so sympathetic, so "any-of-us-might-have-done-the-same-thing-in-her-shoes." But you provide a reality check.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Milburn Stone