S03.E21: Cause and Effect

[tricknasty]

What is a time remnant?

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

What I don't fully understand is why Flashpoint was necessary for this to happen?  Is it that there are an infinite number of ways for Savitar to be created and Flashpoint created THIS particular origin story for Savitar?  If so - how did Savitar come to be in the pre-Flashpoint storyline?  And was that Savitar still TimeRemnant Barry?

I THINK (watch me be proven wrong in the finale or something) the idea is not that Flashpoint was necessary for it to happen, but that it was Flashpoint which freed Savitar from the Speed Force. Barry creating Flashpoint essentially caused a tear in the fabric of space/time through which Savitar escaped, and once he was free he set about using Alchemy to create other metas and killed Iris in order to put Barry on the path to becoming him.

6 minutes ago, tricknasty said:

What is a time remnant?

Whatever the writers want it to be. It's sort of a deus ex machina. But, essentially, it's when a speedster like Barry, Zoom or Thawne goes back in time and recruits their past self, or a copy of their past self, or something, and uses them for some purpose. If you really want to hurt yourself thinking about it, watch the 2nd season finale of Legends of Tomorrow. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by KirkB
Spelling is my friend

[Lovecat]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Despite that, I still liked the episode a lot. I really did laugh at Amnesiac Barry. His reaction to Wally's "We're brothers" had me cackling when he looked down at his hand. I have to believe that it was a Grant Gustin improv moment. 

I loved Wally's big-ass cheesy grin as he watched Barry try to puzzle that one out :)

10 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

My eye roll moment was when Barritar's suit got up on it's own. Come on!

Well, that moment did give us the "Oh, I forgot...my suit is cooler than yours" line, so I'm willing to let it slide.

[phoenics]

That whole Savitar - Suit thing just felt like the writers ripped off Iron Man.  It even had a "sentry mode" and everything.

Barritar jumping into the suit mid-run was sick though.  That was a better special effect to me than Iron Man jumping into his suit.

Back to Barritar's comment about needing 2 things, Iris' death and something else... He also mentioned wanting to have control of all of time... that reminded me of a Justice League episode where Kronos tries to use a time belt to go to the beginning of time and recreate time and make himself a god.  Does Barritar need something like that?

And I wonder if KF's deal with Barritar is that he bring back Ronnie for her and give her a happy ending. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by phoenics

[Grace19]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

And I wonder if KF's deal with Barritar is that he bring back Ronnie for her and give her a happy ending. 

I thought of this too

[Grace19]

This is a filler episode, but I loved it so much, The flash is so much fun when it is lighthearted.

Grant and Candice were just wonderful this episode. The way Grant played these three characters, (savitar, Barry and amnesia Barry) was great. I feel that he enjoyed playing these characters this episode, they were so different. Candice is so great when the show let's her, I fell in love with these two characters allover again. Westallen really have one of the most natural chemistry on screen.

I knew the savitar would be the time remnant future Barry mentioned, its kind of confusing but I will go along with it because Grant is killing those savitar scenes. I know most don't like it, but I like time remnant Barry being savitar. At least, its better than our Barry being the one who kills Iris.

See show, you can actually use other sets. It makes the show so much better and central city bigger. I loved all the scenes we got outside starlabs.

This was a great episode, one of the best this season and one of the funniest episode the show has ever done. I'm hopeful that since they mentioned Barry being happier without all the dark memories, that after they defeat savitar this season, the show will go back to being more fun.

[tennisgurl]

This episode really reminds me of how much I love WestAllen when they are just allowed to be a couple, and what great chemistry Grant and Candice have. They really just light up when they're together, especially when they're allowed to just hang out and laugh together, and not just angst all of the time. I don't like that Iris still gets stuck as Barry's cheerleader so often, but at least in this episode she was allowed to take something of a leadership role in the group, and it focused on HER feelings for Barry and HER desire to take care of the person she loves, instead of all the focus being on Barry and how much he loves Iris and will be lost without her. You could tell Grant and Candice were having fun this episode being happy and light together. I know that we cant keep amnesiac Barry, but he was so cute, I miss him already.

The actual plot was rather meh, and so much of this makes zero sense from a time travel or practical standpoint, but the episode was actually pretty fun and let the characters actually HAVE fun, I can excuse it a bit more than other episodes. I loved the Cisco and Julian double act, especially in the court scene where Julian is writing emoji's into Barry's testimony, and than when Julian was laughing at the pyro guys name, and the guy glared at him, and Cisco was like "I think its a GREAT name". This show is just so much better when its fun than when its angsty. Arrow is good at angst. This show isn't. 

Also laughed super hard at amnesiac Barry's reaction when Wally told him they were brothers, and Barry looked at his hand! That was hilarious. I would have loved a conversation where he questioned why Wally is his brother and Joe is basically his dad, but Iris, their respective sister and daughter, is his fiancé.

Killer Frost...I still don't get it, I complain about this nonsense constantly, so why bother bringing it up again. I will say, the continuity fairy seemed to be making an appearance this week, with references to original Fake Wells, Hartley, Ronnie, and Mick, plus memories of incidents in the shows past.

Speaking of, this new Pyro loser is clearly a poor mans Mick Rory. Sir, I know Mick Rory. Mick Rory is a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Mick Rory.

Basically, you could describe this episode as fun, but pointless. It was basically the McFlurry of the season.

[Aeryn13]

This was a fun episode and I didn`t think the comedy aspect was overdone or out of place with what`s going on. Amnesiac!Barry was really cute and the scene between him and Iris at Jitters was very sweet. When they give them good material Candice and Grant have a very cute and charming chemistry. I think it works nicely with their past relationship as quasi-siblings/best friends. If they were one of the animalistic-sex-vibes-couples, it would kinda weird me out.

Though, Barry went awfully fast from "you crazy mofos won`t get my kidney" to "hey, smoking hot babe, we`re an item? cool", though. Hee. Grant did a great job with three different Barry`s.

Barry looking at his hand in confusion before putting it in his pocket was great but Wally`s reaction shot was even better, I felt.

The comedy duo of Julian and Cisco was gold. I fear we`re gonna lose Tom Felton after the Season which would make me really sad because I believe he has done a wonderful job throughout the entire Season.

I truly felt bad for Savibarry when he explained how the team shunned him. Considering that time remnants basically ARE the person in question, just from a certain point in time, it sends a really ugly message that they are basically treated like say the genetic clones in that movie "The Island", just created to be used as organ donors and than disposed of. Equally, future!Barry created time remnants aka time-cloned himself to help in the fight against Savitar and expected them to what? Evaporate after a job well done? And when one survives, they are tossed aside like garbage? Behold the irony, Team Flash. Especially since he is now by nature hellbent on killing the only person who didn`t do anything to him. Sigh.

[Rachel RSL]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Equally, future!Barry created time remnants aka time-cloned himself to help in the fight against Savitar and expected them to what? Evaporate after a job well done?

Probably because isn't that what time remnants are supposed to do? Until the writers changed their minds and decided they were clones. (I'm still so confused.)

[mac123x]

This is absolutely silly, but I really loved when Iris said "That's when you came to live with Joe and me."  The writers got the grammar correct.  "...with X and I" goes through my head like a nail.

[BkWurm1]

50 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Probably because isn't that what time remnants are supposed to do? Until the writers changed their minds and decided they were clones. (I'm still so confused.)

But time remnants never just faded away. They could go back to the point in time from which they came (continuing the timeline that would then be the current Barry's past) they could die (Again that one doesn't make sense), or get destroyed by time wraiths ( or the zombie Zoom) but one has never just faded away.  

Edited May 10, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Rachel RSL]

I assumed that poster was speaking figuratively. I was anyway, time remnants don't stick around.

[ElleMo]

23 hours ago, KirkB said:

To be fair to the show, I'm pretty sure Savitar already knows about the speed trap since Barry was already part of the group who approached the woman to build it for them, the same woman who Savitar sent Killer Frost after to try and stop her from building it. What they need to do is come up with a plan and not let Barry in on it, but since they'll need him to execute whatever they come up with that could be a problem.

Danielle P seems to enjoy playing Killer Frost. Though I don't imagine all that makeup is any fun.

I can follow most of the time travel stuff, but I'm not sure why Barry not remembering who he is took away Wally's powers. I think the idea was because he didn't remember who he was he never tried to recreate Flashpoint metas (which I still don't even understand, did they ever explain why he wanted that?) and so Wally never got his powers?

It also all happened way too fast, much faster than the stuff that happens on legends.  

[Maverick]

On 5/9/2017 at 9:03 PM, Jediknight said:

I guess Hartley's back to being a villain, judging by what Cisco said.  The one good thing Barry's time traveling adventures caused, has been undone.

Snart being back next week is good, he better return next season with the Rogues as the main villains and bring back fun.

 Not necessarily.  Cisco just said he was kind of dick.  He could have had a bit of an attitude and a rivalry with Cisco without turning into Pied Piper.  

On 5/9/2017 at 9:10 PM, bettername2come said:

Wait, wouldn't Savitar not creating Wally cause he didn't remember it also mean he wouldn't have created Killer Frost? Wasn't it him and not just a ripple from Flashpoint?

 No, the Flashpoint after-effect gave her the metagene and she became Killer Frost 'normally'.   She didn't have any powers in Flashpoint for Alchemy to give her.

On 5/9/2017 at 9:45 PM, CletusMusashi said:

So... If Barry loses his memories, then Savitar will also have amnesia... yet he will still build a supervillain suit and become Savitar? Interesting title choice, because "cause and effect" is obviously the last thing these writers are interested in. In which case, maybe they should drop their obsession with time travel stories.

Definitely an 'interesting' choice since 15 minutes earlier they said Barry killing himself wouldn't erase Savitar but wiping Barry's memory wiped Savitar.  No point in trying to figure it out, so I decided instead to ponder how Killer Frost calmed Amnesia!Savitar down and, more importantly, what the hell did she do with him while she was at Star Labs?  Did she put in a Singin in the Rain DVD and  plop him in front of the TV with a bag of speedster energy bars?

 

On 5/9/2017 at 10:05 PM, quarks said:

1. Cisco doesn't like spinoffs.  In related news, do you know how hard I can roll my eyes? Very hard.

2. Loved the way Iris just stepped into a leadership role while everyone else was just running around panicking. More of this from Iris, please. 

3. So, how do you afford that loft apartment, Barry and Iris? Don't leave us hanging!

4. So, Team Flash starts the episode realizing that they have to keep Barry from finding out their plans in order to keep Savitar from stopping them....and ends the episode by showing Barry the almost-finished time trap thingie. Did you learn NOTHING from your own episode, Team Flash?

 And of course their own Star Trek is Voyager.  Could be worse.  Coulda been Enterprise.  I'm guessing Genevieve Boujold is Janeway on his Earth.

 I groaned so hard when Tracy starts debriefing the team on the next plan to trap Savitar--with Barry standing right there!  You just tried to erase his memory and proven it will effect Savitar.  Let the 10 other people now on Team Flash handle this, dumbass.

 

 So Killer Frost immediately went to work for Savitar because she saw a face she trusted.  Um, Killer Frost doesn't trust anyone on Team Flash.  Her default assumption upon seeing Barry in the suit was that it was some of trick to trap her.  She wouldn't kneel before him and pledge her allegiance without a second thought.  I also wish they'd stop teasing what Savitar promised her.  Obviously he's promised to go back in time and save Ronnie for her.  

[ElleMo]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But time remnants never just faded away. They could go back to the point in time from which they came (continuing the timeline that would then be the current Barry's past) they could die (Again that one doesn't make sense), or get destroyed by time wraiths ( or the zombie Zoom) but one has never just faded away.  

They did in

Spoiler

this seasons final episode of Legends of Tomorrow.  Or at least Sarah did.

Edited May 11, 2017 by ElleMo

[KirkB]

4 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I groaned so hard when Tracy starts debriefing the team on the next plan to trap Savitar--with Barry standing right there!  You just tried to erase his memory and proven it will effect Savitar.  Let the 10 other people now on Team Flash handle this, dumbass.

While it was stupid to have Barry around to hear their plans, in this case I'm not sure it would make much of a difference. Savitar already knows about the speed trap, since he was trapped in it and escaped. The only difference is it's happening now, instead of years later. If they want to succeed they really need to come up with something they haven't already done and don't tell Barry about it. Trying to do what they already know succeeds but eventually stops working isn't going to accomplish anything.

[sarthaz]

23 hours ago, phoenics said:

I did like the light tone of the episode and I loved Iris the entire episode.  CP is just too good for this show honestly.

She really did knock this episode out of the park.  I enjoyed it, even though the plot doesn't stand up to any logical scrutiny.

[Cthulhudrew]

Was there a time this show was more than just a sequence of short quips and action scenes loosely stringing together several long dramatic monologues? I want to say it wasn't quite like this during season 1, but I just don't recall.

[RobertDeSneero]

I suspect that the Speed Force plays a role in the existence of time remnants.  They function as patches that a sentient Speed Force uses to hold the timeline together, the glue that binds the pieces of the cracked teacup.

I'm guessing that the other thing that Savitar besides killing Iris is for the Speed Force trap to be built.  Why else would Future Barry tell Current Barry about Tracy?

It would be interesting if Caitlyn was able to resist the Killer Frost persona long enough to leave Team Flash with info that could be used to perfect the memory shield.

[AudienceofOne]

On 10/05/2017 at 11:45 AM, CletusMusashi said:

So... If Barry loses his memories, then Savitar will also have amnesia... yet he will still build a supervillain suit and become Savitar? Interesting title choice, because "cause and effect" is obviously the last thing these writers are interested in. In which case, maybe they should drop their obsession with time travel stories.

Ah, but they told us that when you time travel a lot the rules no longer apply! So, you see, it's totally fine that this plotline makes no sense. This episode made it clear the writers are going for a closed universe time loop. Which is fine, except [insert last week's rant here].

Apropos of nothing, I went to see Swan Lake last night. Haven't seen it for ages. Great dancing, lovely music. But the plot makes absolutely no sense and you're not supposed to care because !dancing!, !love!, !good vs evil! They die in the end. I'm supposed to be happy about this, I think, because they "foiled the sorcerer" but since I don't know why the sorcerer turned the heroine into a swan in the first place I have no clue. Maybe their deaths were a part of his plan and the sorcerer actually won in the end. 

So you have a bad guy running around going, "I am a bad guy, mwahahaha" and things that happen just because somebody thinks it looks cool. But we're not supposed to care because it's all just so pretty. Well, that makes good ballet. It makes terrible TV. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 11:19 PM, doram said:

I loved this episode. I guess it's an established tradition now that the show waits until Episode 21 to finally treat Iris like their leading lady. Because she got the leading lady treatment in this episode and she sold it. She was brilliant in every beat she played and I really, really wish that episodes like this were the rule, not the exception. 

From the little that made sense in this story --- "This" Savitar can only exist by Barry creating a time remnant. That is one of the events in this time loop. So maybe Barry should ... not create a time remnant? Or any time remnants? The solution is so simple, I don't understand why no one brought it up. 

I was happy that he suggested killing himself, Eddie-style, to take care of the problem and a reason was given why it won't work. (The reason didn't make much sense but at least that was put on the table. It would have been so jarring if it hadn't). 

This was killing me. Oh, you are a time remnant, then I guess I shouldn't use them as part of my plan.

Otherwise a fun episode. I agreed with Iris. This is the fun goofy Barry we knew from S1 and we do miss him.

[johntfs]

12 hours ago, Maverick said:

Not necessarily.  Cisco just said he was kind of dick.  He could have had a bit of an attitude and a rivalry with Cisco without turning into Pied Piper.

Also, Hartley was pretty clearly a dick/Pied Piper during Barry's time travel.  The result of the time travel undicked Hartley to the point that he saved Barry from the Time Wraith when he got to the present.  Still, during the Cisco/Caitlin/Ronnie era, Hartley was apparently quite dickish.

[DearEvette]

The time travel stuff this season has gotten so laboriously murky that is makes that part of the storyline hard to follow.  But man, I enjoyed this episode just because it was light.  What a low bar!  But Grant Gustin does comedy and delight so damn well.  The suspicion about them stealing his kidney and looking at his hands after Wally said they were brothers were delivered with just the right comedic timing. 

Also it was a great showcase for Barry and Iris' chemistry to shine through.  I struggled with them as a couple in S1 because I thought she sparked with Eddie so much better.  But then came the Earth-2 episode in Season 2 where I really saw what was possible between Barry and Iris and I was finally hooked on WestAllen.  I wanted that for E-1 Barry & Iris!  Funny enough Bart Allen seemed a lot like E-2 Barry. 

I remember when some people were commenting about the chemistry between Barry and Kara during the musical episode.  And I remember thinking to myself, it is easy to see chemistry when two people are smiling and sparkling at each other.  This episode kinda speaks to that a bit, because it is harder to feel love when it is angsting and glooming and dooming over the couple all over the place. And I fell in love with Barry and Iris all over again. It was just so nice to see the look of happiness on her face as she looked at light-Barry.  Candace really did sell that so well.

[RobertDeSneero]

10 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

This was killing me. Oh, you are a time remnant, then I guess I shouldn't use them as part of my plan.

That might not erase Savitar.  If Barry changes the timeline by not creating time remnants, then Savitar will be a remnant of the timeline that included time remnants, who would still have to exist to make sure that certain things happen in this timeline. 

I've thought about the idea of Barry creating a time remnant of Iris who would willingly die in the place of the real Iris, but I think that might not be possible.  It might be that only a speedster with a connection to the Speed Force can be a time remnant.

10 hours ago, doram said:

Also, what was the point of wiping Barry's memories if they were going to show him the bazooka? 

The speed force bazooka looks nothing like the weapon that HR had on the rooftop  in the future.  Flash and the burning building occurs at night.  We see daylight after that, so there is time for Team Flash to come up with a plan without Barry's knowledge that involves showing him the bazooka.

[johntfs]

44 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

The speed force bazooka looks nothing like the weapon that HR had on the rooftop  in the future.  Flash and the burning building occurs at night.  We see daylight after that, so there is time for Team Flash to come up with a plan without Barry's knowledge that involves showing him the bazooka.

That assume a level of forethought and planning that kind of have yet to see from Team Flash.  I think Joe's discussion with Cecile pretty well summed it up.

Cecile:  Did a supervillain do this to him?

Joe:  Um, no, we did this to him ourselves.

Cecile:  Why?

Joe: (unspoken "Because sometimes we're stoooopid.") Never mind why.

Meanwhile given the reveal about Savitar's identity, who else has had this song in their heads?

Edited May 11, 2017 by johntfs

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

That might not erase Savitar.  If Barry changes the timeline by not creating time remnants, then Savitar will be a remnant of the timeline that included time remnants, who would still have to exist to make sure that certain things happen in this timeline. 

No, he wouldn't. See previous rants. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[immortalfrieza]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:48 PM, phoenics said:

It looks like I was right in that this is a paradox - a closed loop - a causal loop... Savitar exists, but to exist he has to kill Iris so Barry creates him.  Ugh.  Headache.

 

On 5/9/2017 at 11:57 PM, tofutan said:

I don't even try to understand the time loop stuff anymore, I just assume it's actually bullshit if you ever thought about it seriously. 

The worst thing is as I said in the previous episode's thread that time loops can easily make sense, if there's an actual starting point. All it needs is events that results in the time traveller going back in time, then whoever involved deliberately making sure the events still roughly happen anyway. As I put it before:

Quote

It just as easy that the first time around in this loop, Iris ended up being killed by some supervillain, probably one that didn't exist before Flashpoint, Barry eventually went mad from the grief and self-loathing, became Savitar, then when back in time to kill the supervillain but once he did, realized that he just did something that will wipe himself and all this NEW GLORIOUS POWER!!! away, so he went and killed Iris himself to ensure his own existence, which is really when the cycle started and without the other supervillain in play at all.

The problem is that once the loop actually starts, all the characters involved have no way of knowing when and how the loop actually began, so it's easy for the logic behind it to be buried in ignorance.

On 5/9/2017 at 11:19 PM, doram said:

From the little that made sense in this story --- "This" Savitar can only exist by Barry creating a time remnant. That is one of the events in this time loop. So maybe Barry should ... not create a time remnant? Or any time remnants? The solution is so simple, I don't understand why no one brought it up. 

I was happy that he suggested killing himself, Eddie-style, to take care of the problem and a reason was given why it won't work. (The reason didn't make much sense but at least that was put on the table. It would have been so jarring if it hadn't). 

It even contradicts itself in this same episode. If Barry losing his memories results in Savitar losing his, then that's proof that anything that happens to current Barry will affect him. Naturally the writers would never allow Barry to actually kill himself, but they could have come up with a better explanation than this, like for instance Savitar being from another universe and is simply trying to turn as many Flashpoint universe Barrys into Savitars as he can. In fact, Savitar being from another universe would handily clean up most if not all of the inconsistencies with this whole storyline.

[ACW]

On 5/10/2017 at 1:43 AM, doram said:

 

Of course, we shouldn't think too much about the fact that STAR Labs doesn't generate income, and Barry has to pay living wages to Cisco, Caitlin, HR - and maybe Julian as part-time? - as well as heat, electricity, the latest tech and materials for their inventions, stock a medical bay that can treat human and metas both, and cover repairs from meta human attacks and breaches between worlds. 

Well, they have saved money by never repairing the roof.  Plus, they probably got a fair chunk of change when they (I must assume) sold all of the security system and door locks.

[RobertDeSneero]

3 hours ago, doram said:

"Cause and Effect" established that there's a direct link between the actions Barry takes in the present and Savitar's past actions - like giving Wally his speed. When Barry got amnesia, Savitar also 'forgot' to give Wally his speed retroactively. 

LOL. None of this makes sense but I'm pretty sure that at this point in time, Barry isn't going to even consider making a time remnant of himself ever again. 

I wonder if Savitar will force Barry to make one...

Changes can be made, but if Wally doesn't have speed, then he never frees Savitar from the Speed Force, so Savitar becomes a time remnant from a timeline where he was freed from the Speed Force.

Even if Barry killing himself would erase Savitar from the timeline like Eddie did with Eobard, I hypothesize that it might create an even bigger singularity than the one caused by Eddie's heroic suicide because it would be a speedster killing himself.

Maybe Barry creates time remnants to stop Savitar, then he kills his time remnants.  Or Savitar kills all but one time remnant, the last one has a scarred face, and Joe shoots him.

Anyways, here's one theory of how time travel might work.  So, a speedster travels in time.  His presence in the past or future changes events.  This creates two parallel timelines, but eventually, they collapse into each other.  The new timeline overwrites the old timeline.  The speedster, protected by the Speed Force, remembers the old timeline, but exists in the new single timeline.  He is a remnant of the old timeline, a time remnant.  However, if the change is too crazy, the new timeline causes a singularity as it overwrites the old one, threatening to destroy everything.

[scarynikki12]

Reminder: this thread is for episode discussion.  If you want to know and discuss spoilers, head to the Spoiler thread.  If you don't want to know spoilers but still want to discuss the next episode, head to the Unspoiled thread. 

CatFlash thanks you.

 

[Grace19]

Its just not as simple as not creating time remnants, Iris was already dead before Barry created the time remnants. So they have to save Iris first before Barry can then go ahead with defeating savitar. It's a time loop, savitar already exists, so save iris first, defeat savitar and don't creat time remnants so that savitar ceases to exist this will then break the time loop.

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, doram said:

The time remnants were created before she died.  2024!Barry stated this during the conversation in the time vault.

Yep, Barry created the time remnants to try to save Iris and most them got killed.  The one who survived was disfigured and then abandoned by Barry and company as they dealt with their own grief and loss.  He went on to become Savitar.

Edited May 12, 2017 by johntfs

[KirkB]

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

Yep, Barry created the time remnants to try to save Iris and most them got killed.  The one who survived was disfigured and then abandoned by Barry and company as they dealt with their own grief and loss.  He went on to become Savitar.

Doesn't that mean all Barry would have to do is NOT create any time remnants then? If there are no time remnants to become Savitar then there would be no Savitar. I know it won't be that easy but it seems like it should be.

[johntfs]

2 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Doesn't that mean all Barry would have to do is NOT create any time remnants then? If there are no time remnants to become Savitar then there would be no Savitar. I know it won't be that easy but it seems like it should be.

There's a thousand different easy ways for Team Flash to shitcan the Savitar threat long before Dead Iris Day but none of them will be allowed to work because then there'd be no story.  Probably one problem with the time remnants is that Savitar is also (a) Barry, so he could create time remnants as well, and then kill all but one of them and still kill Iris.  One thing I agree with Savitar about is the more we get into all the timey-wimey bullshit, the harder it is to sort out cause and effect.  Maybe Barry will end up accidentally traveling to the 1800s, have sex with someone played by Danielle Panabaker (perhaps while Iris is dead or evil or whatever) and become Caitlin's great-whatever grand-dad or something.

[Spaceman Spiff]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:31 AM, doram said:

Also, what was the point of wiping Barry's memories if they were going to show him the bazooka? 

IIRC when Cisco vibed Barry to his visit to the future where Savitar kills Iris, he mentioned something was different "this time" and he saw HR on the rooftop with the bazooka.

[KaveDweller]

On 5/12/2017 at 9:04 PM, KirkB said:

Doesn't that mean all Barry would have to do is NOT create any time remnants then? If there are no time remnants to become Savitar then there would be no Savitar. I know it won't be that easy but it seems like it should be.

Or everyone could NOT shun the remnant so that it doesn't get all bitter and evil.

[VCRTracking]

Thinking about this whole thing with Barry creating time remnants just so they could be killed made me remember one of my favorite films of the 2000s. I won't say the title of it because I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it(let's just say it is underrated compared to the director's more popular films), but that idea of creating duplicates of yourself, each of them having the same memories as you and perhaps each also having a soul just to coldly sacrifce them was horrifying and messed up in that movie and it is a little unsettling  on The Flash.

Edited May 14, 2017 by VCRTracking

[KirkB]

Let's face it. Is there ANYTHING about this plot that makes sense?

[TV Anonymous]

40 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Thinking about this whole thing with Barry creating time remnants just so they could be killed made me remember one of my favorite films of the 2000s. I won't say the title of it because I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it(let's just say it is underrated compared to the director's more popular films), but that idea of creating duplicates of yourself, each of them having the same memories as you and perhaps each also having a soul just to coldly sacrifce them was horrifying and messed up in that movie and it is a little unsettling  on The Flash.

The Sixth Day?

[VCRTracking]

No, I'm talking about a GOOD movie. Also it's not a spoiler that The Sixth Day has clones in it. The movie I'm talking about it's a twist.

Anyway, sucks that Barry made a pledge to Iris that he would always protect her and it took such a bad turn.

Edited May 14, 2017 by VCRTracking

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Thinking about this whole thing with Barry creating time remnants just so they could be killed made me remember one of my favorite films of the 2000s. I won't say the title of it because I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it(let's just say it is underrated compared to the director's more popular films), but that idea of creating duplicates of yourself, each of them having the same memories as you and perhaps each also having a soul just to coldly sacrifce them was horrifying and messed up in that movie and it is a little unsettling  on The Flash.

I'm guessing

Spoiler

The Prestige. 

[LisaM]

Time Travel gives me a headache. 

I like that Cecile now knows about Team Flash. 

I like HR and Tracy together - much more than HR by himself. 

Getting bored with the Savitar storyline.

[VCRTracking]

6 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm guessing

  Reveal hidden contents

Yep!

[Trini]

Bless you all who have tried to unravel everything with the time loop and time remnants, which the show has been WILDLY inconsistent about. I don’t even wanna try; but I will say that the loop can’t be as closed as they say. And not just for TV plot reasons, but because I think they’ve shown that things are different this time around — Future Barry hadn’t traveled to the future previously, and I don’t think amnesia happened previously either. I think the future IS changing with the new information the Team has.

----------------

So should I expect episode 4.21 to be a key WestAllen episode too? Start planning now, writers! I did appreciate that we had a light, filler-y episode when most of the episodes in this back half have been kinda sad and gloomy. But it did have some exposition about Savitar. ...

…However, that was a mistake. Savitar’s origin is one of those things I think they needed to show, not tell, in a few minutes/lines of dialog.  Especially when he’s this season’s ‘big bad’, AND it’s a version of Barry. That easily should have been an entire episode.

We needed more (any??!) reactions from the team about Savitar being a version of Barry. Especially when it’s been this big mystery for months. Only Barry got to voice his feelings about it. I get that it’s his show, but this affects the whole team.

If they do another VFX reel, I want to see how they did that shot of Barry holding Barry/Savitar in a choke hold. Good job, Armen!

Cisco + Julian comedy team! See, we don’t need HR for comic relief.

Even though Barry had Very Convenient TV Amnesia, in which he only forgets what the writers want him to forget, I did really like that we got to see a happier, comedic Barry Allen. And fluffy, happy WestAllen. I’m glad they fleshed out some more of Barry & Iris’ backstory, because I don’t think they’ve told us nearly enough about them growing up.

Amnesia!Barry: *knows nothing about his life* “I don’t trust any of you!"
Iris: “We’re engaged.”
Amnesia!Barry: “… Sounds legit. So how’s our wedding planning going?"

I also think that Grant was having fun playing the lighter version of Barry that he signed up for.

Bart! More references to future speedsters - hee! One of them has to show up next season, right?

So, OF COURSE the time they actually show Barry's job, he literally can’t do it.

Speaking of jobs, I’m glad we got more Iris screen time in this one; and it would have been okay that they didn’t show her job in this particular episode IF they had been consistent in showing her job/investigation skills in the episodes prior. ::SIGH:: Glad they showed again that she’s the key to getting through to Barry. Hopefully that comes back around to being used to defeat SaviBar, but I know I can’t get my hopes up with these writers.

Optimistic Me hopes that Team Flash actually did make a plan that Barry doesn’t know about.

Even more problems with the writing for Caitlin/Killer Frost, just from this episode:

• Setting up her redemption arc — because they just can’t commit to making her villain. (And we still don’t know her motivations.)
•  …In the same episode where she’s all “Oh well,” about Iris dying. So she and Iris are supposed to be friends*/friendly after that?
• Describing Killer Frost/the cold powers as something that can just be fixed/cured. By the men in her life. (But then again, the only woman in her life (who’s actually NOT in her life) they’ve shown is her mother; in one episode.)

*(Then there’s the larger issue of almost never showing Iris and Caitlin interacting or being friends)

I just don’t think they realize how badly this storyline is coming across. On ALL levels.

Cisco’s hair continues to be great. Did Carlos get a new stylist? Can Candice get a new stylist? She has about 3 hairstyles.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Trini

[Princess Lucky]

I love how I came in this thread to refresh my memory about time remnants and to answer my questions on "aberrations" (at least as compared to LoT) and to maybe sort out the timeline, and now I'm even more confused. This entire storyline makes no sense. The only thing that made sense to me in the episode was Cisco saying this was a closed time loop. That's always been what I figured, so I was glad to see it confirmed. The rest? I have no idea and I don't think the writers do, either.

Question: couldn't Killer Frost save all those people? Couldn't she extinguish the fire easily? Couldn't they ask her to help Barry, at least? Couldn't Cisco say "help Barry or else I'm kicking you out of STAR labs and Savitar will never get his memories back"? True, they both needed to "fix" Barry's memories so he'd be bluffing, but so what?

Julian and Cisco together = comedy gold. This entire episode was very funny, without being over the top. I really liked it.

Candice Patton is so talented. She got some more screentime this week and she shone.

I still don't like or care about HR and I skip his scenes with Tracy because I don't care. I hope he's gone by the end of the season. And I hope Julian stays. Stays alive, at least, if not on the actual show. But I would settle for losing him (with pain in my heart) if we could get Harry back. Julian/Cisco is great, but Harry/Cisco was amazing.

[legaleagle53]

10 minutes ago, Princess Lucky said:

I still don't like or care about HR and I skip his scenes with Tracy because I don't care. I hope he's gone by the end of the season. And I hope Julian stays. Stays alive, at least, if not on the actual show. But I would settle for losing him (with pain in my heart) if we could get Harry back. Julian/Cisco is great, but Harry/Cisco was amazing.

Won't happen, and you can thank (or blame) Tom Cavanagh for that.  His contract specifically allows him to play a new and different version of Wells each season to keep him from getting bored with the part.  That's why Harry went back to Earth-2 and HR came to replace him on the team.  I just wonder how HR is going to exit, especially since he's apparently found his soulmate in Tracy and the two have very obviously fallen for each other, although neither of them is ready to admit it even to themselves just yet.  I also wonder what new version of Wells we're going to get next season.

Edited May 14, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Princess Lucky]

9 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Won't happen, and you can thank (or blame) Tom Cavanagh for that.  His contract specifically allows him to play a new and different version of Wells each season to keep him from getting bored with the part.  That's why Harry went back to Earth-2 and HR came to replace him on the team.  I just wonder how HR is going to exit, especially since he's apparently found his soulmate in Tracy and the two have very obviously fallen for each other, although neither of them is ready to admit it even to themselves just yet.  I also wonder what new version of Wells we're going to get next season.

Oh! Well, then they should have killed Harry, frankly. I don't like knowing we could be seeing him every week, but we're not, for reasons unrelated to the story.

That said, that also pleases me, because it means we'll definitely get rid of HR. I can only imagine the "new" Wells will be better than HR (but also probably worse than Harry, sadly).

I love Tom Cavanagh, but not enough to automatically love every character he plays, no matter how well he plays them. Eobard was great, Harry was amazing, but HR was a dud, for me. Hopefully the new version will be a lot better.

[Princess Lucky]

14 minutes ago, doram said:

But it's not a closed loop - the fact that they can break out of it, already makes it not a closed one. 

And what makes it worse for them to give us this quasi-closed-loop explanation is that they set it up so badly.  For a closed loop to be effective, there has to be a eureka! moment for the audience (and not the characters who exist in this loop and don't realise they can't break out of it) where all the pieces fall into place.

That's what happens at the end of The Terminator (first movie) when Sarah takes the photo at the end and we realise that it's the same photo that Kyle was looking at in the future and we (the audience) see the answer to the question he asked - "what was she thinking about" was "him." (This is an even bigger mind-fuck than realising Kyle is the baby's father because you suddenly realise that he fell in love with a picture of her as she thought of the man she loved - him.) You see that in Misfits when we finally realise what motivated Superhoodie to meet his fate unflinchingly. Same for 12 Monkeys. 

There is no eureka moment for the audience in this story. Apart from Future-Flash's throwaway line of "Savitar killed the time remnants mostly", which occurred one episode before the reveal - the only clues we had about Savitar's identity were foreshadowing clues that aren't particular to this being a time loop. 

If they had done as they ought to have - and established Barry creating time remnants earlier - not only would it have been a eureka moment for the audience, it would make sense why Savitar would reveal his identity now. He has nothing to lose. The time remnant already exists and is already on the path to becoming him. At this point, why would Barry make time remnants knowing what he knows? By revealing his origin story before that story has happened - Savitar has already ended the cycle, Iris's death making no difference.

Whoa, I actually didn't consider the idea that this episode itself was about them breaking (and then unbreaking) the loop. They've definitely failed to set up the elements required to "create" (or facilitate) the loop, the time remnants especially, but yeah, I guess they did break the loop. Or did they?

I imagine Savitar would remember it, if the team had erased his memories in a prior iteration of the loop? So that was an original idea? Is it safe to assume that Cisco comes up with that idea in every loop? Therefore the loop is, indeed, closed and never broken? Is Barry's/Savitar's amnesia part of the loop? Hell, is Tracy part of the loop? Or Barry's trip to the future, which led to her?

The end result is Barry turning into Savitar (and Iris's death seems important for no reason that we've established, other than Barry's angst) but this iteration of the loop that we're in, is it just like all the others? Savitar is always one step ahead, so I'd imagine yes. But up to which point? Again, does it include Tracy? And her Speed Force trap? If that's new, I guess the loop is not closed, after all.

And I agree, the ever-murky time remnants are such a terrible plot device. As others (and) you have said, why would Barry start making them now that he knows about Savitar?

[GHScorpiosRule]

17 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm guessing

  Reveal hidden contents

The Prestige. 

And I was thinking

 

Multiplicity with Michael Keaton

Edited May 15, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, doram said:

Here are even more questions: why get Barry's memories back if it incapacitated Savitar? Why not take advantage of KF in Star Labs, to find Savitar and take him on while he had amnesia, and no knowledge of his powers? At that point he was just an angry version of amnesia!Barry with a cool suit. They could have taken advantage of the instant bond Barry had with Iris, and used her to trick him out of that suit and then taken him down. They definitely should have tried to knock out KF and lock her up in the pipeline.. 

Because 1) Barry still has a day job as a forensic CSI and was needed in that capacity immediately in order to testify at the release hearing and 2) Wally also lost his powers because amnesiac Savitar never remembered to execute his plan to give Wally those powers in the first place, so the serial arsonist who walked because amnesiac Barry was incompetent to testify at the hearing was able to set a fire that would have killed who knows how many people, and while amnesiac Barry did still have his powers, he didn't know how to use them to put out the fire or save anyone trapped in the building, and Wally couldn't do it because he no longer had any powers.  So there was no option to keep Barry amnesiac until Savitar could be destroyed because there simply wasn't time.  Barry's memories had to be restored at once, and Savitar's along with them so that Wally's powers could also be restored.

Edited May 15, 2017 by legaleagle53