S05.E05: Sing it, White Effie

[Cranberry]

When the inmates' antics make the morning news, Flaca and Maritza soak up the spotlight. Brandy and her crew auction off Judy to the highest bidder.

[Chairperson Meow]

The one with Watson's childhood back story.  

[Lady Calypso]

Gotta love the irony with the Nazi inmates being mistaken for Muslim terrorists. It helps that I pretty much have disliked them and don't see me liking them in the near future.

At least Pennsatucky acknowledges that she shouldn't be wanting Coates. But as much as I understand her wanting to protect Coates...man, I wish I cared. If it was a better guard that she was into, then I'd feel sympathy for her love. Sadly, I just don't, especially when she gives Coates the gun.

I know the whole Stratman thing was supposed to be comedic relief, but in reality, I just felt bad for the guy and hated that nobody was helping the poor guy. Much like the other guy having his insulin shot being taken away, this decision is just poor that could very well lead to someone's death, a death that they don't want as part of their amnesty clause.

It's kind of funny to see Josh the PR Guy still doing his job while being held hostage, and seemingly being a willing participant to help. He sounds almost excited to be doing his job, which makes him seem way too calm about the situation, but maybe he's just prioritizing.

I'm a little critical of the flashbacks this season, but at least this one with Janae somewhat connected with the present day story. 

[timeywimey]

Taystee's moment in front of the cameras was magical. 

[tivofanatic]

They finally turned some focus to Janae again.  Nice.  Did she do anything last season?

Overall, this season connects nicely with season 4, but it's too many characters.  I just counted on IMDB. At least 50 actors make up the inmates and guards this season.  Wow.  No wonder Piper feels like a supporting character now.  But I am loving this show, and encouraging friends that it improves vastly from the season 3 Norma cult.  Where's Norma?  I remember seeing her once.

[Helena Dax]

Tayste's speech was so touching... And she's completely right. Watson was right too and I'm glad they didn't let Judi talk for them. 

Poor guard... I didn't find it funny either.

Why were Watson and her schoolmates visiting that posh school for rich kids? What could possibly be the purpose? No wonder she was depressed later, I would have been, too.

[Blue Plastic]

5 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Why were Watson and her schoolmates visiting that posh school for rich kids? What could possibly be the purpose? No wonder she was depressed later, I would have been, too.

Yeah, I missed the point of that, too.  If they weren't going to get to at least take some classes there or something, I don't get the point of showing poor students some posh school they'll never get to attend.  It's good if the public knows about the inequity and maybe change can be brought about, but I don't get why Jenae's teacher seemed to want her to go on a tour at a school full of amenities and programs that she herself would never have.

[Lillith]

Ha they filmed part of this in my neighborhood. I recognize that Associated Supermarket it's about 4 blocks away from my apt. I guess they film at SilverCup and Astoria Kauffman Studios. 

[WhosThatGirl]

2 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

Yeah, I missed the point of that, too.  If they weren't going to get to at least take some classes there or something, I don't get the point of showing poor students some posh school they'll never get to attend.  It's good if the public knows about the inequity and maybe change can be brought about, but I don't get why Jenae's teacher seemed to want her to go on a tour at a school full of amenities and programs that she herself would never have.

Yeah.. I didn't get it? I thought maybe Jenae was getting some sort of program to attend this school but otherwise.. you were having all these kids who attend a badly non funded public school with only one computer go and be walked around a private school by kids who get to have their own laptops the entire school year? I mean yes what is the point of that? It really didn't make sense.

[Joimiaroxeu]

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Why were Watson and her schoolmates visiting that posh school for rich kids? What could possibly be the purpose? No wonder she was depressed later, I would have been, too.

It's probably in reference to the 2016 HBO documentary, Class Divide. This New York Times article explains the basic issues but you really should watch it, especially since it's now free on YouTube.

The whiteface Dreamgirl performance with the afro wig has to one of the worst things I've seen on this show. Surely that can't be based on something that actually happened in one of those kinds of private schools. I wouldn't even call it cultural appropriation because there's nothing resembling any kind of culture there.

[snowwhyte]

I thought the teacher wanted to show Watson that there was more out there than what she was used to and exposure her to a different educational environment. It may have been ill-advised since instead of inspiring her it just made her lose all motivation. We saw in Watson's earlier flashbacks that she tends to focus on the negatives instead of the positives of her situation. She was doing well in school, had a teacher that took an interest in her and discovered a talent for track. It sounds harsh but she threw her opportunities away. I think that's why I never warmed to Watson.

[junemeatcleaver]

Quote

At least Pennsatucky acknowledges that she shouldn't be wanting Coates. But as much as I understand her wanting to protect Coates...man, I wish I cared. If it was a better guard that she was into, then I'd feel sympathy for her love.

I think it's kind of timely they're showing Penn's conflicted, fucked up feelings for her rapist in light of the Cosby trial.  I also like it because so much media romanticize relationships between rapists and their victims, it's nice to see a show acknowledge the complexity of feelings while not forgetting that the shit between Penn and Coates is totally fucked up.

I was thinking the white Effie at the private school may have been inspired by this garbage. 

[ExplainItAgain]

I really like Ruiz for some reason. I think it's just maybe the actress really selling her anger and showing how far off the rails things have gotten.

At least the gun is out of the prison. I was afraid it was becoming a game of hot potato with everyone getting a turn with it.

I'm interested to see what happens to Linda...I thought the Who Am I? game might be leading somewhere with regard to her. Or maybe Red is going to ask her to forge something related to Piscatella? (Who, by the way, looks even creepier without the facial hair.) Has Red met Linda yet? Can't remember.

Edited June 12, 2017 by ExplainItAgain

[Thrifty]

The show has been getting a lot darker.  I have a hard time sympathizing with the inmates.  I think they were being poorly treated and I'm in favor of prisoners' rights.  While some people in prison are truly human garbage, a lot are just people who made mistakes.  Prisoners of course are supposed to be denied certain rights that people on the outside get.  The existence of for-profit private prisons troubles me, because it's always trouble when you incentivize cutting corners on human needs.

 

Still, the inmates here complain that they are being treated like animals.  But they ARE  animals.  Not before, but certainly during the riot.  Tying up prison staff, denying bathroom rights, imprisoning one in a porta-potty, withholding insulin from a diabetic.  I'm glad that Alex was brave enough to stand up to it, and I'm glad that not all the prisoners are on board with this savagery.

 

I really despise Tasha Jefferson.  She's lying through her teeth to the media.  Calling it a peaceful demonstration when they are rioting and torturing guards.  Calling Poussey's accidental death a murder.  I really hope something bad happens to her.

[sweetcookieface]

I'm not a super-emotional person, but I had tears streaming down my face during Taystee's speech.

Quote

Why were Watson and her schoolmates visiting that posh school for rich kids? What could possibly be the purpose? No wonder she was depressed later, I would have been, too.

This plot/backstory was straight out of an NPR "This American Life" story from a couple of years ago called Three Miles. It was about students from a poor, overwhelmingly black/brown H.S. in the South Bronx visiting Fieldston, a mostly white, 43K a year private school just  three miles away (they don't name the school on the show, but they say it's in Riverdale, which is where Fieldston is located). Anyway, I think the idea of the visit was to expose students to another life (and perhaps to give the students from the poor school a sense of what sort of opportunities might be out there), but some of the students had the same reaction to the experience as Janae; it ended up being more demoralizing than motivating. It's a really interesting, heartbreaking story - i highly recommend it.

[kissedbyarose]

I get where Janae is coming from. I had some experiences like that growing up in the South Bronx. (Once in a summer camp, a kid from Riverdale was getting mail from his mom and the address was Riverdale, NY as opposed to Bronx, NY. He kept apologizing for about two days straight.)

Everyone was always interested in showing me that life was better outside the Bronx but I kept wondering why the Bronx couldn't be just like these other places. I get her anger but I had a support system that made me channel that energy into doing great but I could've easily gone the other way. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

This plot/backstory was straight out of an NPR "This American Life" story from a couple of years ago called Three Miles.

Oh yes, I remember that episode and how much it bothered me. They had these poor kids jumping through several layers of hoops to compete for a scholarship (which only paid room & board; pricey textbooks not included). Then when the selection was made the rest of the semifinalists were left hanging, often with no other options. It seemed so needlessly cruel to get these kids hopes up when most of them would end up possibly worse off financially and emotionally just for having tried to reach for the opportunity of an exclusive education. I imagine the OITNB writers drew inspiration from both the TAS episode and the HBO documentary I referenced above.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[junemeatcleaver]

Quote

Still, the inmates here complain that they are being treated like animals.  But they ARE  animals.  Not before, but certainly during the riot.  Tying up prison staff, denying bathroom rights, imprisoning one in a porta-potty, withholding insulin from a diabetic. 

I suspect the writers are somewhat drawing on the Stanford experiment with how some of the inmates are treating the hostages.  It sure seemed like they were inspired by the same experiment last season with guards becoming more and more heavy handed and power mad.

Quote

I really despise Tasha Jefferson.  She's lying through her teeth to the media.  Calling it a peaceful demonstration when they are rioting and torturing guards.  Calling Poussey's accidental death a murder. 

How is she lying by saying Poussey's death was a murder when she honestly believes Poussey was murdered?  I get where the Black inmates are coming from, besides Poussey being their friend and an important part of their clique, how many Black folks have to die before it's more than just "unfortunate accidents"?

[JoBeth70]

On 6/14/2017 at 10:55 AM, junemeatcleaver said:

I suspect the writers are somewhat drawing on the Stanford experiment with how some of the inmates are treating the hostages.  It sure seemed like they were inspired by the same experiment last season with guards becoming more and more heavy handed and power mad.

Holy crap, I just googled the Stanford experiment and that is all sorts of screwed up. But fascinating. I now see it as more plausible that the inmates at Litchfield would act like animals.

[Dobian]

Tasha's speech was moving and important, though I did disagree strongly with a few very key parts.  Judy King, for one, is not representative of white prisoners.  There are plenty of white inmates at Litchfield who aren't treated differently from anyone else. Judy King is rich and a celebrity, so she got the star treatment.  If Rihanna was in there it would have been the same thing.  And you can't call the prison takeover "peaceful" when a guard was shot and made to have a stroke.  Another denied insulin.  Rape.  Public humiliation.  Bathroom rights revoked.  And locking people in porta-potties in the hot sun all day could easily result in death.  Children and pets die being locked in cars in the hot sun all day.  If there are no consequences for anyone for this and everything is just back to normal again, then the show is being disingenuous.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2017-6-13 at 7:14 AM, Thrifty said:

Calling Poussey's accidental death a murder.  I really hope something bad happens to her.

As much as i have been enjoying what they have been doing with Taystee, that kind of bugs. It wasn't murder, at best it was manslaughter, and even then if Bayley went on trial for manslaughter he probably wouldn't be convinced (if i was on a jury that had all the facts i am not sure i would vote guilt).

Now a wrongful death civil suit against MCC and the federal government, absolutely.

[PsychoDrone]

I can see their points about conditions at the prison, but retaliating against the guards isn't helping their cause.  If even one guards dies from their actions, then their cause is lost.  The guard that was shot in the leg, which appeared to be in the femoral artery, should have died.  Denying the one his insulin or locking them in porta-potties in the hot sun could lead to someone's death too.  Peaceful protest this isn't and, once the stories are revealed, the public won't sympathize with the prisoners.

I can't with Watson.  She opens her mouth and stupidity ("why do you think they call it Black Friday") comes pouring out.  The visit to the rich school was demoralizing, but she must have gotten over it and channeled her energy into track.  She screwed herself and now everything is "whitey's" fault or because of slavery.  She has some good moments, by convincing Tasha to speak, but she needs to get the chip off her shoulder.

Edited June 18, 2017 by PsychoDrone

[Thrifty]

On 6/17/2017 at 3:28 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

As much as i have been enjoying what they have been doing with Taystee, that kind of bugs. It wasn't murder, at best it was manslaughter, and even then if Bayley went on trial for manslaughter he probably wouldn't be convinced (if i was on a jury that had all the facts i am not sure i would vote guilt).

Now a wrongful death civil suit against MCC and the federal government, absolutely.

Yes, exactly.  Murder is a very specific term, and I always thought it was clear that murder was intentional, in a moral sense as well as a legal sense.  What Bayley did was 2nd degree (involuntary) manslaugter at worst.  Involuntary because the victim didn't provoke him; she was just kinda in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Things were getting chaotic in the prison, and in the course of trying to contain it he caused an inmate to die. 

 

I can forgive Taystee for being a bit irrational, since a close friend just died only a few days prior.  It bothers me that nobody says anything different at any point though.  It also bothers me that this is similar to real life cases where people who should be much more cool headed (didn't know the victim), make the same false accusation.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Thrifty

[Thrifty]

On 6/14/2017 at 10:55 AM, junemeatcleaver said:

How is she lying by saying Poussey's death was a murder when she honestly believes Poussey was murdered?  I get where the Black inmates are coming from, besides Poussey being their friend and an important part of their clique, how many Black folks have to die before it's more than just "unfortunate accidents"?

You take it on a case by case basis. Poussey's death very clearly WAS an accident.

I think you are right that she is not lying, but is instead just mistaken, which I can understand.

[knaankos]

I personally believe this was one of the worst episodes of the series. A huge swing and miss on an attempt to hit a grand slam. And the reason why is how disingenuous the show is being while trying to make big political points, points that do not fit with the characters or the story. Judy King being dragged around like slave... again is that supposed to make us applaud the inmates doing it? If so it's really  complete fail. They try and turn certain characters like Cindy into heroes, a character shown to have not an ounce of care for anyone else, even in her backstory she did everything for herself one of the few characters with our redeeming qualities actually.

 

They have completely messed up the character of the Track girl (I forget her name). So I am to assume that after giving up on school she went on to pursue a successful track career (which btw she landed herself in prison completely, she was on her way in Track. The "system" did not land her in prison like maybe some of the other inmates). Compared to many of her fellow inmates she was fairly well off. A star student, star track runner etc. And that's compared to the white inmates too. Was Pennsatucky more privileged than her? Of course not. The show intentionally tried to divide the white and black inmates in this episode, undoing seasons worth of humanizing all of them. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I had forgotten about Janees backstory, so thanks for this:

22 minutes ago, knaankos said:

I personally believe this was one of the worst episodes of the series. A huge swing and miss on an attempt to hit a grand slam. And the reason why is how disingenuous the show is being while trying to make big political points, points that do not fit with the characters or the story. Judy King being dragged around like slave... again is that supposed to make us applaud the inmates doing it? If so it's really  complete fail. They try and turn certain characters like Cindy into heroes, a character shown to have not an ounce of care for anyone else, even in her backstory she did everything for herself one of the few characters with our redeeming qualities actually.

 

They have completely messed up the character of the Track girl (I forget her name). So I am to assume that after giving up on school she went on to pursue a successful track career (which btw she landed herself in prison completely, she was on her way in Track. The "system" did not land her in prison like maybe some of the other inmates). Compared to many of her fellow inmates she was fairly well off. A star student, star track runner etc. And that's compared to the white inmates too. Was Pennsatucky more privileged than her? Of course not. The show intentionally tried to divide the white and black inmates in this episode, undoing seasons worth of humanizing all of them. 

 Perhaps they should have given this backstory to Cindys childhood and not Janees, considering the previous backstory she was given or I don't know.. changed the story?

And I mentioned this before Halfway through this episode, I thought little Janee was going to be offered some sort of way into the school and then Janee would have turned it down because maybe it was a race quota issue and she wasn't here for that. It would have fit in with what was going on in present time having Judy  King speak for the prisoners when she wasn't a real one.

Although again.. the race issue isn't the issue with Judy or any of the inmates. Like someone else said if Rihanna had ended up in jail, she would be getting star treatment as well. 

 

Its eaiser for me to speak more about my issues on the season as a whole based on how I watched them all, but the more these episodes play out, the harder it is to root for the inmates. 

[knaankos]

On June 13, 2017 at 11:58 AM, kissedbyarose said:

I get where Janae is coming from. I had some experiences like that growing up in the South Bronx. (Once in a summer camp, a kid from Riverdale was getting mail from his mom and the address was Riverdale, NY as opposed to Bronx, NY. He kept apologizing for about two days straight.)

Everyone was always interested in showing me that life was better outside the Bronx but I kept wondering why the Bronx couldn't be just like these other places. I get her anger but I had a support system that made me channel that energy into doing great but I could've easily gone the other way. 

What Janae didn't realize and what her teacher didn't tell her is that what she saw in that academy is not the norm. She probably went away from it thinking that that is how all white kids get educated, when really thats the 1% even for white people. The school she was in didn't seem that terrible, the teacher should have sent her on a trip to a very impoverished school to see the other side as well to help her realize that there are inequalities in the world. Failed opportunity for a lesson and instead it just gave Janae a lot of pent up frustrations and anger

[Guest]

I didn't like Janae's story.  It's almost like the white skinheads and meth heads are the only ones being presented as dumb criminals, and Piper and Alex, while the black and Hispanic inmates are just victims of poverty and lack.  I understand the social commentary.  And I guess Frieda (is that the Nature Scout?) was shown as being a product of a looney home.  But it's feeling a little heavy handed lately.  

[Mindthinkr]

My favorite part is when Alex was setting up the reading nook for Piper. Piper was complaining about the clutter. Alex thought it was chotchiequien (the best spelling for that word that I could come up with. Feel free to correct me!) 

[Paloma]

On 6/20/2017 at 10:01 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I didn't like Janae's story.  It's almost like the white skinheads and meth heads are the only ones being presented as dumb criminals, and Piper and Alex, while the black and Hispanic inmates are just victims of poverty and lack.  I understand the social commentary.  And I guess Frieda (is that the Nature Scout?) was shown as being a product of a looney home.  But it's feeling a little heavy handed lately.  

The message seems both heavy-handed and confusing in this season. In earlier seasons, when they focused on fewer prisoners, the social commentary was more effective and made me sympathetic to most of the black and Hispanic inmates because they were shown as victims of poverty and the system, while most of the white inmates were there because of stupidity, intentional bad acts committed by privileged people, or "good" reasons such as social protest. I'm still sympathetic to those whose lives are shaped by poverty and unequal opportunity and get caught in the system because they see no other choice, but not every black and Hispanic person who ends up in prison had no other choice (for example, Cindy). I'm also not sympathetic to someone like Aleida who feels entitled to a job and curses out the employer in front of customers for not giving her the job based on nothing but Aleida having nice nails. If this is how she behaves with all potential employers, no wonder she can't get a job.  I'm not sure if we are supposed to be sympathetic to her.

 

On 6/20/2017 at 0:28 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

Judy King being dragged around like slave... again is that supposed to make us applaud the inmates doing it? If so it's really  complete fail. They try and turn certain characters like Cindy into heroes, a character shown to have not an ounce of care for anyone else, even in her backstory she did everything for herself one of the few characters with our redeeming qualities actually.

This is part of the confusion in this season's message. I never liked the Judy King character, but having her treated like a martyr (Nazis forcing her to walk with a cross on her shoulders) and then a slave on a leash was just over the top. Similarly, having the inmates treat the imprisoned guards and warden (most of whom have not been shown to be evil) like animals may be understandable if you think of the Stanford experiment, but it has the effect of making those inmates unsympathetic. It wasn't until near the end of this episode that I remembered that Maria was the one who had her baby taken away, which made me more sympathetic again to her...until she left Caputo and the guard to suffer in the port-a-potties. 

[tennisgurl]

I'm increasingly not that into the flashbacks, but I did like this one, and I think it actually does explain one of the reasons Janae is so bitter. She was a bright student who suddenly saw how different things are for the one percent, and felt like the game was rigged and gave up. Its sad, especially when, between this flashback and her first season one, she had lots of opportunities to get ahead, and had people in her corner trying to help her, but she never seemed to have gotten over this one day of heartbreak. She had a teacher rooting for her, and in her first season flashback she had plenty of people in her community trying to help her get a track scholarship, but she threw it away for a guy. Who turned out to be an asshole.  Actually, this adds to her story a bit. This was a real thing people did to underprivileged kids? I guess they were trying to show them how the other half lives so they would aspire to more, but holy SHIT was that poorly thought out. Give them options as to HOW to get to that point, don't just wave it in their faces.

I mean, if you had taken middle school me to that school, I would have been miserable too, and I'm just about the whitest person you'll meet, I cant imagine how awful it would be for little Janae. My rural, Midwestern public school actually sounds a little bit like her school. Crappy technology, massive teen pregnancy numbers, and text books that still listed the Soviet Union in all our world maps. I was class of 2008! Plus SO much meth. So much.  At least she had teachers who seemed to care, which is more than a lot of kids can say. That Dreamgirls thing was all kinds of ridiculous, but I think I get the point. But, come on, rich school! NO ONE saw an issue there? If there not one black kid at this school?

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

But, come on, rich school! NO ONE saw an issue there? If there not one black kid at this school?

Probably not - both in that no one saw an issue, and the likelihood of a black student at that school. 

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 This was a real thing people did to underprivileged kids? I guess they were trying to show them how the other half lives so they would aspire to more, but holy SHIT was that poorly thought out. Give them options as to HOW to get to that point, don't just wave it in their faces.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why they would just visit a rich school - at first I thought it was a select group were taken because they were scholarship worthy. But that's not what it looked like, eventually. If they meant to inspire, well, from my experience what's inspirational to some causes others to completely give up. As it did for Janae. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The girl in the afro wig in Dreamgirls just had me with my mouth hanging open. I mean, seriously, WHAT THE FUCK? Just...wow.

I did enjoy Flaritza taking advantage of their access to the internet to parlay their 15 minutes of fame into something more. Just imagine how much money they'd be making if they were on the outside posting makeover videos!

Edited July 5, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[kieyra]

Due to a rewatch of the whole series, I saw an important piece of Janae's backstory that I'd forgotten. This is during the third season, I think, which examined faith and religion for a lot of the inmates. Janae is shown as having a strict Muslim father who refuses to let her seriously compete in track because of the amount of skin she'd have to show while running. Even when her mother points out she'd be able to get a scholarship for college, her father says something like "money is not my God", and he ends up hitting Janae when she pushes back verbally.

I know she still made the choice to "break bad" with the robberies, but it's another piece of the puzzle of why she's so angry and why she gave up. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by kieyra

[ryebread]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:18 AM, timeywimey said:

Taystee's moment in front of the cameras was magical. 

I'm binge watching this season.  But it started jumping the shark for me somewhere around epi 3. 

I watched 4 last night and, begrudgingly, moved on to 5 - right up to the point of Taystee's presser.   Then my husband came home.  In fact, I paused the screen right on Taystee's face as she came out to meet the press.  Instead of being bummed that I had to get up and actually do something other than binge watch OITNB as I would have been in Season 1 - 4, I was relieved . Like, "Okay, I'm done. I think I can quit this show now."

But because of your comment and a couple others after it, I'll go back and finish. At least this episode.  I'm hoping, like you say, Taystee's moment is 'magical'.  I need some magic in this series, again. 

All the poop talk and the riot has burned me out. 

Even the duos that used to make me laugh - Flaca/Maritza, Leanne/Angie - have gone too dark.   Show has lost it's mojo.

Big Boo and Crazy Eyes are my favorites.

[NYCFree]

On 6/11/2017 at 1:40 PM, Lillith said:

Ha they filmed part of this in my neighborhood. I recognize that Associated Supermarket it's about 4 blocks away from my apt. I guess they film at SilverCup and Astoria Kauffman Studios. 

Ha, they filmed in my neighborhood as well, I live in Riverdale. I keep trying to get my husband to photograph our house so I can list it with location scouts. Elementary and Law and Order SVU both film here a lot.

I loved Tastee's speech! 

New York City has very, very uneven public schools. I used to both live and teach in District 3 in Manhattan. I lived on the upper west side and my son started public school at PS 87, it's one of those schools that is included in real estate listings. The Parent Association raises more than a MILLION dollars a year to provide enrichment. I taught in Harlem, at the northern edge of the district. The school received Title I funds for having such a large percentage of students below the poverty line. Although Janae's backstory seems to have been based on a real event, I think it would have been more interesting to show the difference between public schools, rather than public and private.

Edited September 3, 2017 by NYCFree