S03.E19: The Once and Future Flash

[Trini]

Quote

Barry travels to the future to find out Savitar's still unknown identity in the hopes of saving Iris. Upon his arrival in 2024, Barry encounters future versions of his Team Flash friends, who, following the death of Iris, have become very different people, profoundly impacted by their showdown with Savitar. It will be up to Barry to infuse a sense of hope back into the team, as he proves to be hero his future friends have been waiting for. Meanwhile, back in 2017, the hunt for Killer Frost continues.

Tom Cavanagh directed the episode written by Carina Adly MacKenzie

[Trini]

Clips:

 

[Gregg247]

....and special guest star Clay Aiken as "The future Flash"!

[KirkB]

I was thinking it was mostly a wasted episode, since Barry didn't even accomplish the very thing he was there to do, but that ending makes me think I have a pretty good idea who Savitar is now.

There is only one person I can see Caitlin reacting that way to.

[Jediknight]

Well, Savitar is either futureBarry or Ronnie.

FutureBarry's suit was dope as heck.  He should have brought it back with him.

[SnoGirl]

I wanted to really like this episode, but I was so irratated that there are no females involved in the future in the Team Flash. And I get it, they're not going to introduce a new character, but not even Gypsy? Ugh, it was so glaring and so annoying. They better save Iris so there's at least one lady on Team Flash.

Why couldnt they use Cisco's disrupter on Savitar? It slowed down Flash, why no Savitar? Isnt that the issue, he's too strong and too fast? I thought by them constantly showing it, it was going to be the answer.

[Lantern7]

The future in brief: doom, doom, bionic hands, doom, doom, crappy wig, doom, and Huckster minutes away from a threesome. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Okay episode, but I think we exhausted enough "Horrific Future" tropes. Where were the red skies? Actually, never mind that.

Is there a way for Caitlin to have her mojo and her sanity? I mean the "Killer" can be omitted from "Killer Frost." Unless it turns out E2 Caitlin is possessing her, which never mind then. Sounds dumb, but with this show? It could happen.

[Terrafamilia]

Hmm, future Cisco created a resonance thingy that interfered with Flash's speed. And no lightbulb lit up over Flash's head that maybe, just maybe, it could be adapted to interfere with Savitar's speed instead. When Flash hesitated and decided not to run back to the past I thought it was because he had had that realization, but nooooo.

[KirkB]

I forgot to mention, why is running to the past easier than running to the future? Barry needed help from Wally to get to 2024 but he was able to run back to 2017 on his own no problem.

Edited April 26, 2017 by KirkB
Spelling is my friend

[kirinan]

I knew I'd seen Future Barry someplace before!

[AD35]

26 minutes ago, Gregg247 said:

....and special guest star Clay Aiken as "The future Flash"!

To me, Future Barry's look brought to mind Garth Brooks's "Chris Gaines" phase in the late 90's, minus the soul patch.

Edited April 26, 2017 by AD35

[KirkB]

I didn't realize how dark Barry's suit really was until I saw it next to future Barry's bright red one. I'm kind of partial to the latter.

[catrice2]

50 minutes ago, AD35 said:

To me, Future Barry's look brought to mind Garth Brooks's "Chris Gaines" phase in the late 90's, minus the soul patch.

If I could like this 1000 times I would.....great call! 

I struggled to watch this episode and did not make it through.  I was hoping after a break this episode would be interesting....not so.

[Lady Calypso]

I think the scene of Team Future Flash reuniting shows the glaring female problem with this show. The fact that they turned Caitlin into an evil schizophrenic, they have a dying Iris, and no other main females just illuminates that something needs to change next season. Now, whether or not THEY have finally pieced it together is....probably less than hopeful, seeing as we're in season three. 

Well, obviously Savitar is one of them or someone very close to them. I'm still convinced it's Wally, even though Killer Frost's reaction toward the identity makes it seem like it's Barry or Ronnie or someone she'd feel indebted to. I was kind of hoping for Future Wally to wake up and clue us in on who Savitar is. It's why my number one suspect is Wally, since why else would Future Wally go comatose over Savitar? 

1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

Hmm, future Cisco created a resonance thingy that interfered with Flash's speed. And no lightbulb lit up over Flash's head that maybe, just maybe, it could be adapted to interfere with Savitar's speed instead. When Flash hesitated and decided not to run back to the past I thought it was because he had had that realization, but nooooo.

That really frustrated me. Barry, come on! Take the future tech with you! My god, man! You're stupid! But hey, at least you're not like Emo Barry Allen AKA the new member of My Chemical Romance. 

I really like Future Flash's new suit. It's so bright. Can we have that one instead of Barry's current dark one?

Honestly, they should have revealed Savitar's identity to at least us a couple of episodes ago. I think I prefer it that way because instead of being curious, I'm more annoyed. 

[Primal Slayer]

These kind of episodes are always kind of hard for me to buy into. The hero gets depressed and everything ends up going to hell for no big reason. Savitar didn't seem to be ruling with an iron thumb and the biggest threats seemed to be Top and "Mirror" Master. At least when Buffy died, the scoobies were doing their best and a pretty good job of keeping Sunnydale intact. And this is also a slight problem with having a shared universe since it makes me ask "where are the other superheroes in the world? Just ignoring Central City and the team?"

The future Flash suit was a MAJOR upgrade though, Barry better be wearing that by S4, except he can keep his current cowl since it looks better then the newer one. 

[Rachel RSL]

Yes, Barry. Stick around and reunite the decrepit future Team Flash and risk getting killed instead of going home and making sure this shitty future never happens. Also, start using lozenges regularly because, 8 years from now, something really wonky happens to your voice.

32 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, they should have revealed Savitar's identity to at least us a couple of episodes ago. I think I prefer it that way because instead of being curious, I'm more annoyed. 

Ditto. Plus, after dragging it out all season, we've run through so many theories about who Savitar is, I honestly can't see anybody making our jaws drop, which is clearly what TPTB are hoping for.  Really, I'm so ready for this storyline to be over. All I really care about at this point is Julian making it out unscathed.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh JEEBUS FUCKING CRIPES ON A CRACKER!!!! What the fuck was that?

Shouldn't there have been a time paradox* when Past Barry met Future Eyore Barry? If I had a fucking Twitter account, I would SO get in that LYING LIAR WHO LIES Kreisberg's face and ask how was this episode, plus the past two and a half seasons, anywhere near close to the "fun, light-hearted show" The Flash was supposed to be? From his own FUCKING MOUTH. Douche. Prick.ASSHOLE.

I'll try to have more coherent thoughts once I've calmed down. I think I'll go and watch me some Prison Break and wallow in the hotness that is Michael Scofield and Lincoln Burrows, thankyouverymuch.

I really prefer the  bright red Flash suit from da future.

*Because that's what Doc Brown told Marty would happen if he saw his other past self in Back to the Future II!????

Edited April 26, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[thuganomics85]

The Flash returns!  Or, really, the way this season has been going, it would be more accurate to say "Hello, darkness, my old friend..."

Anyway, Current Sad Barry ends up going into the future, and ends up in a very depressing 2024, with an even Sadder, More Moody Barry, complete with a bad wig and a hilarious raspy, deep voice (I love Grant Gustin, but I just kept thinking somewhere, Stephen Amell was sending him "Dude, quit stealing my act!" texts throughout the entire episode), and more brooding then I ever thought was possible.  Apparently, Barry gets so sad about Iris' death, he not only disbands the team, he doesn't keep his promise to Iris, and just abandons Joe and Wally.  Smooth, Barry.  Talk about taking your ball and going home.  But, hey, at least he's going to get an awesome new suit in the future!

So, basically, the current future is this: Cisco looses his hands, Caitlin goes full Killer Frost and even teams up with Savitar, Wally gets paralyzed, Joe is depressed and has no support system, and H.R.... well, he at least apparently become a successful romantic author, of all things.  But, really, everything sucks for everyone pretty much.  They're making the Framework on Agents of Shield look like a nice vacation spot.

Of all the past metas, Mirror Master and Top somehow being the top dogs seem strange to me.  They wouldn't be my first choices.  Granted, I would have loved it if The Trickster somehow remained supreme, but that would have been too fun.  And while Mirror Master has always been old-school gangster, Grey Damon was one "Bada Bing!" away from sounding like he was a side character from The Sopranos.

At least Future Julian will end sporting an impressive beard and not be evil, which is nice, since usually facial hair on characters means they went bad.

It really was noticeable that there was no women when Barry reassembled Team Flash, because without Iris or Caitlin, they've got nothing. Couldn't even work a Gypsy appearance?

Going to drag out Savitar's identity for another episode, but judging from Caitlin's reaction, I can only really see him being Ronnie or another version of Barry.  I really can't think of anyone else she was close enough to, for her to suddenly drop the posturing and quickly throw in with him.

It feels like years since this was the fun show.  It's like Eobard, Snart, and Mick took all of it with them to Legends of Tomorrow. 

[Primal Slayer]

It continues to make me laugh at how they find any and every possible way to put Julian into the storyline but the females are practically always a 2nd thought.

[Cthulhudrew]

 I really, really, hate that thing tv shows do where characters don't tell other characters important information that they should know before going into a situation like, say, "Oh, Barry- Kaitlyn's gone full Killer Frost and teamed up with Savitar to destroy the city," or, "Before we go see Wally, you should know he's been crippled by his fight with Savitar." 

I get that the writers want to save those dramatic reveals for visuals, rather than dialogue, but holy crap you can actually write those scenes so that it doesn't seem as if the characters that are allies and friends are being complete dicks to one another and withholding valuable information and still keep that info from the audience.

[david gideon]

This was like It's a Wonderful Life except minus the happy ending; enough already. But I'm stuck on figuring out why everyone in the future was surprised to see Barry 2017 show up. They were there when he took that trip back in 2017. Did they all forget it happened? Or is this some other convenient time travel wrinkle that has to be hand waved away?

[Cthulhudrew]

At first I thought Future Barry should be hanging out with Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, but as I watch his dramatic scene with Past Barry, I'm thinking he should be hanging out with Keanu Reeves instead.

[benteen]

What a surprise that Barry can't even travel into the future without screwing up.  Seeing the other Barry there made no sense but I liked Future Barry's look, which reminded me of Oliver.  Even the voice was different.

Cisco, the only way Barry is going to change things is by going into the past.

[Cthulhudrew]

"She didn't figure out the technology until 4 years ago."

"4 years after Iris died." 

"Mmhm."

Correct me if I missed something, but didn't Barry travel to 2024? And Iris died in 2023 2017. I know that math isn't a lot of people's strong suit, but c'mon writers, you're killing me here tonight.

ETA: Now Barry tells people he went 8 years into the future. And I double checked, the paper he picked up said February 2024. Geez, it's simple addition, guys!

Edited April 26, 2017 by Cthulhudrew
Typed 2023 instead of 2017 by mistake. Thanks to Legaleagle53 for catching that!

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

ETA: Now Barry tells people he went 8 years into the future. And I double checked, the paper he picked up said February 2024. Geez, it's simple addition, guys!

It would have to still be 2016 in order for Barry's timeline to match up, but he stated multiple times that he's from 2017, so that goes out the window. Stupid writers can't add properly. 2020 would be three years after Iris' death, show! They SAID 2017 AND 2024 in the episode! It's not like it's a miscommunication between different departments! It's writers apparently forgetting what they wrote two pages back!

[Cthulhudrew]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

 It's writers apparently forgetting what they wrote two pages back!

That, or more time travel shenanigans by Barry affecting our world now.

[Froippi]

yea i think i agree its Ronnie as Savitar how i have no freaking clue has to be do to Flashpoint i bet

Edited April 26, 2017 by Froippi

[legaleagle53]

49 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

"She didn't figure out the technology until 4 years ago."

"4 years after Iris died." 

"Mmhm."

Correct me if I missed something, but didn't Barry travel to 2024? And Iris died in 2023. I know that math isn't a lot of people's strong suit, but c'mon writers, you're killing me here tonight.

ETA: Now Barry tells people he went 8 years into the future. And I double checked, the paper he picked up said February 2024. Geez, it's simple addition, guys!

Iris dies in May of 2017, about one month from now.  Where did you get 2023 from?

[Cthulhudrew]

14 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Iris dies in May of 2017, about one month from now.  Where did you get 2023 from?

Sorry- typo. I meant 2017. Gak.

[Bats27]

It really bothers me that Caitlin—and only Caitlin—has a curse associated with her powers that completely overrides her actual personality, desires and morality. Given how often they've stranded her in thankless, corpse-filled romantic plots, it's really disappointing that the writers are shoving her into that box when everyone else gets powers while remaining themselves.

It's hugely indicative of the show's problem with female characters in general. With no explanation whatsoever, Caitlin is the only who whose agency is pretty much entirely removed. She didn't even get a say in the transformation (and Julian even went against her express wishes - yes I know, heat of the moment; on another show with better women, this might've been less of a problem).

On Flash, removing female agency is just another Tuesday

All of the CW shows have issues in this regard to one degree of another. But out of all of them, The Flash is the worst offender in this regard imo. So that doesn't fill one with confidence that they'll handle this well either.

[VCRTracking]

57 minutes ago, Bats27 said:

It really bothers me that Caitlin—and only Caitlin—has a curse associated with her powers that completely overrides her actual personality, desires and morality. Given how often they've stranded her in thankless, corpse-filled romantic plots, it's really disappointing that the writers are shoving her into that box when everyone else gets powers while remaining themselves.

Killer Frost was a long established supervillain in the comics before the Flash show aired. Just like they knew Cisco was going to have "Vibe" powers, when they decided to make "Caitlin Snow" a character and a good guy, they definitely knew down the line they were going to turn her evil, they just didn't have a good idea how. I thought when they had the Earth 2 Killer Frost that would their version of it. Then they used Flashpoint or at least the effects of it as a way to have Earth 1 Caitlin suddenly develop powers and came up with this BS where suddenly her powers made her into a totally different person.

As flawed as Willow's evolution towards being "Dark Willow" on Buffy the Vampire Slayer was(that whole thing where suddenly magic became an addiction was eyerolling) it was still better executed and thought out than what happened with Caitlin.

Edited April 26, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Trini]

I have to go to bed, but...
So we went through that entire episode of gloomy manpain, and we didn't even get to find out Savitar's identity?? Come ooooonnnnnnnn, show!

Love the future Flash suit, hate that it's never going to be the present day suit.

I really wanted to be able to recommend this episode, but the only really commendable thing was Grant's acting.

More later....

[TDT]

3 hours ago, Froippi said:

yea i think i agree its Ronnie as Savitar how i have no freaking clue has to be do to Flashpoint i bet

I'll assume that it's going to be Hunter Zolomon..

[BkWurm1]

OMG.  The stupid just hurts.  If Barry has traveled to the future of 2024 and there he finds out the answer to stopping Savitar exists in 2020, could someone please explain to me why he doesn't just run back to 2020 before he runs back to 2017?  

Or even a crazier notion, just get the tech that should STILL exist in 2024!!!

Edited April 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Bats27]

The sad thing is, in the comics, there IS an explanation for Caitlin doing morally shady things sometimes.  And it still makes her somewhat sympathetic at the same time.  Why the show couldn't just go with that, IDK.

And if she wasn't the ONLY full-time team member with powers, or if the show didn't treat it's female characters so badly across the board, then I MIGHT be more ok with this.  But as it stands, I'm not.

[bmoore4026]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the scene of Team Future Flash reuniting shows the glaring female problem with this show. The fact that they turned Caitlin into an evil schizophrenic, they have a dying Iris, and no other main females just illuminates that something needs to change next season. Now, whether or not THEY have finally pieced it together is....probably less than hopeful, seeing as we're in season three.

Don't forge the mumble mouthing of lines.  Drives me up the fucking wall.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

Love the future Flash suit, hate that it's never going to be the present day suit.

There's no reason why it can't be in season 4.  They've already made it and if they want to show a return to a lighter tone (say, wasn't that supposed to happen this season) it can be visualized with a new suit.  Oliver change costumes occasionally so there's no reason why Barry can't as well.

As for the episode, I can understand Barry being caught off guard by Top the first time.  However, it was inexcusable when it happened the second time.  Use your speed and tie up the criminals, THEN engage in the witty banter.

[MissLucas]

Was I the only one who started laughing at the sight of the thing on future Barry's head? It's got to be a cousin of Ollie's flashback mop.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

As for the episode, I can understand Barry being caught off guard by Top the first time.  However, it was inexcusable when it happened the second time.  Use your speed and tie up the criminals, THEN engage in the witty banter.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. He wasn't expecting her to be right there, and might not have immediately recognized her, the first time. But the second he was all bluster and bravado with no actual plan, which is typical Barry, and the reason he gets in so much trouble. To stand there and stare at a woman whose power is explicitly to look you in the eye and mess with your mind? Come on Allen....

[johntfs]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:04 AM, KirkB said:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. He wasn't expecting her to be right there, and might not have immediately recognized her, the first time. But the second he was all bluster and bravado with no actual plan, which is typical Barry, and the reason he gets in so much trouble. To stand there and stare at a woman whose power is explicitly to look you in the eye and mess with your mind? Come on Allen....

Yeah, I kept thinking "He's got a plan.  He's got a plan."

And then.  "His plan is to stand there like a fucktard, get whammied and let other people save his stupid ass."

And then further.  "His plan is to stand there like a fucktard, get whammied, let other people save his stupid ass and use that to resurrect Team Future Flash."  Which, well, okay, though the entire point of this adventure seemed to be to ensure that this future never happened, but what the fuck ever.

Also, I find Caitlin as Killer Frost to be paradoxically and disturbingly hot.  And so did Julian, who seemed to be leaning in to snog with the psychotic superwoman who can turn people into ice sculptures.

And yeah, I get it, Killer Frost is a villain.  It still sucks that the only meta woman on Team Flash has powers turning her evil when nothing like that happens to any other metahuman except possibly Magenta, who already had a mental illness.

It occurs to me as well that Team Flash might do well to talk to Killer Frost as if she were her own person and not simply Caitlin's derangement.  You know, find out what she actually does want.  Maybe this whole thing could be averted by a night of ice skating, eating Blizzards and watching Frozen.

Edited April 27, 2017 by johntfs

[benteen]

DP is a lot more fun as Killer Frost but I agree that it's ridiculous that her powers completely change her personality and give her no choice in whether she wants to become a villain or not.  The show has always handled the female characters poorly and this is another in an endless amount of examples.

BTW, got to love Barry hearing that Caitlin has disappeared and gone mad and his first thought is "**** that, I'm going to the future!"

[Cekrypton1]

12 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Hmm, future Cisco created a resonance thingy that interfered with Flash's speed. And no lightbulb lit up over Flash's head that maybe, just maybe, it could be adapted to interfere with Savitar's speed instead. When Flash hesitated and decided not to run back to the past I thought it was because he had had that realization, but nooooo.

I had the exact same thought. And I am disappointed that future Cisco didn't think of it either.

[Cekrypton1]

I love that across the Berlanti-verse, flashback wigs are universally terrible. It's a nice constant.

[johntfs]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:34 AM, benteen said:

BTW, got to love Barry hearing that Caitlin has disappeared and gone mad and his first thought is "**** that, I'm going to the future!"

I'm pretty much okay with this.  It's not like there was going to be any time taken if the trip goes right and if it went badly wrong they're screwed anyway.  Taking time out to find Caitlin, subdue her and imprison her also gives Savitar more time to have free reign to work his will.  And part of that could easily be interfering with any attempts to capture Caitlin.  Before you tangle with a werewolf, you best go get a silver bullet.

Technically this was a flash-forward wig, but the wig-suckage is indeed universal.

Edited April 29, 2017 by johntfs

[Cekrypton1]

15 minutes ago, benteen said:

BTW, got to love Barry hearing that Caitlin has disappeared and gone mad and his first thought is "**** that, I'm going to the future!"

Well, as noted by his return--almost no time passed. 

[Lady Calypso]

59 minutes ago, benteen said:

BTW, got to love Barry hearing that Caitlin has disappeared and gone mad and his first thought is "**** that, I'm going to the future!"

I agree that it's, as usual, questionable. But what I loved is that when it WAS pointed out to him by Iris, Barry's response was "I'll just come back to this exact time, and it'll be as if I never left"...and then they stuck by that. They could have had him come back hours later, but they actually did the smart thing and stick to him coming back as if no time had passed. I was worried that the episode WOULD cut back to the present day timeline to have them fighting Killer Frost while Barry was away. 

[Jenniferbug]

I'm confused why the speed force didn't heal Wally after he fought Savitar. Didn't Zoom shatter Barry's spine at some point, and he healed? 

[DavidJSnyder]

14 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Well, Savitar is either futureBarry or Ronnie.

I can't see any reason for Barry's line - "I even created time remnants, and then most of them died" unless Savitar is a surviving Time Remnant Flash.

[KirkB]

34 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm confused why the speed force didn't heal Wally after he fought Savitar. Didn't Zoom shatter Barry's spine at some point, and he healed?

I was wondering the same thing. Yes, Zoom did break Barry, who healed up major spinal damage in a few days. I THINK the implication was Savitar did more to Wally than just hurt him. Something that couldn't be fixed by mere physical healing. What that might be, who knows?

8 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

I can't see any reason for Barry's line - "I even created time remnants, and then most of them died" unless Savitar is a surviving Time Remnant Flash.

I'm not sure why Barry wouldn't know one of his remnants became Savitar. He told younger Barry he had no idea who Savitar was. Until the show tells me otherwise I'm going to stick with it being Ronnie, who is the only person I can see having that sort of an effect on Caitlin.

Edited April 26, 2017 by KirkB

[notagain]

8 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

I can't see any reason for Barry's line - "I even created time remnants, and then most of them died" unless Savitar is a surviving Time Remnant Flash.

When did he say it?