S07.E16: The First Day of the Rest of Your Life

[mightysparrow]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Amen. They (Rosita and Darly) can take their overreacting, glowering, mopey asses on a long walk right off a short pier. TIRED of those two. 

 

Amen again. What is Erik doing there??? Any time I see him holding a gun I just start to snicker. He must have a pact with the gods to still be alive at this point. 

 

I have never once in my life watched a show because it was "fashionable". I can't speak for others, but I'm still here week after week because I invested a lot in this show. I fell in LOVE with the early seasons. I think season 4 was maybe one of the strongest. For years it was doing a lot of things right. But it's been going downhill for the last few seasons. I complain because I know the potential it had, and it sucks to see what it's become. I'm still here because I do care about these characters (some of them) and I want to see how things end for them. 

Many posters here are from Television Without Pity, which was a snark forum. Hatewatching is a very real thing, and this isn't going to have the same tone as a fan site would. 

Thank you.  I'm a TWOP refugee (still miss it) and I'm grateful that there's at least one site on the internet that isn't all 'Rick Grimes is King!!!!' and 'Isn't Daryl dreamy?!?!?!!'  There are tons of fan-sites for people who don't want to hear any criticism.  Like you, I've invested a lot in this show, since the very beginning.  Fans like me MADE this fucking show and I see what's going on now as a betrayal of all the time and devotion people like me have invested.  There was a time when TWD was about story-telling but now it's about 'Is so-and-so REALLY dead?' and stunt after stunt after stunt.   Gimple and his crew keep telling me that Negan is the greatest super-villain' in western history but that's not what I see on my tv.  So either Gimple thinks we're stupid (and anyone reading these pages knows that TWD fans are definitely NOT stupid) or he doesn't CARE what we think as long as he gets paid.

I'm one of the people who thought it was obvious Jadis and the GPKs were going to betray Rick even before I was spoiled.  I don't think JUDITH would have trusted that chick.  First of all they invaded Alexandria, stole all their food and kidnapped Father Gabriel.  Then, when CDB arrive to rescue Father G., Jadis tries to kill Rick by pushing him off a mountain of junk into the waiting arms of a porcupine/walker.  Instead of saying, 'fuck you and the garbage truck you rode in on', Rick Grimes decides that these are his kind of people and makes a deal to provide them with weapons if they join the fight against Negan.  When he shows up with the promised weapons that he almost died to get, Jadis doesn't say 'thank you', she says 'more'.  Once again, Rick doesn't say 'take it or leave it'.  He goes to a thriving community that has managed to survive and hide from Negan.  Anybody with a brain would think that THOSE are the kind of people he could use on his side.  But Rick has already made his choice, so he spends five minutes talking to the folks at Oceanside before taking all their weapons for his girl Jadis.  At no point does Jadis give the slightest impression that she's the type of person whose word is her bond, yet Rick Grimes entrusts not only his life but his communities' and children's lives to a woman who can't even speak English.

Now, we've seen Rick Grimes fuck up time and time again so it's not a total surprise.  But there was a time when there were members of the Alexandria community who actually had functioning brains.  Yet not one single person pipes up and says 'you know, something doesn't smell right with these GPKs'.  Once upon a time, Michonne was a strong woman capable of independent thought and willing to disagree with Rick if she thought he was wrong.  Remember her?  Now Michonne. who took on a herd of walkers single-handed, dissolves into sobs at the very thought of a life without Rick Grimes' 'Little Ricky'.

As someone mentioned, there was a time when Rick Grimes tore a man's throat out when that man threatened his child's life.  Now, when Carl is being threatened with a painful death, Rick just TALKS.  AND TALKS.

Do I even have to mention the digital tiger that's now the most important character on TWD?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I guess I enjoyed this somewhat.  The flashback of Abraham and Sasha went on too long for me but I was able to check Twitter during those scenes.

I thought they gave Sasha a good exit.  When she got Negan to agree to only one death, I thought she believed the one death would be his.  That's why she repeated "only one", IMO.

I had zero problem with Rick okaying the explosion with Eugene in the blast zone.  I also wished someone would just make the sacrifice and shoot Negan while he was blathering before the Sasha reveal.

A bunch of the rest just ended up being pretty funny to me.  Negan making his demands and then adding he wanted the pool table, all the pool cues AND all the chalk was hilarious.  Shiva appearing out of nowhere to eat a guy was awesome funny.  All the groups being able to recognize good from bad, funny.  Negan monologuing to HIMSELF during the gun fight, funny.  The middle finger salute goodbye, funny.  Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure they weren't going for comedy.

I don't really care who lives or dies much anymore except for, maybe, Jerry.(well that's only somewhat true, I do care about CDB and the others, I've been with them for a long time).  I don't really even mind Negan that much but that's because of JDM, who will always be John Winchester to me.  I would just like to not be bored anymore.  

I'm still in for the long haul, but my expectations are pretty low. 

[FishyJoe]

It still boggles me why they trusted the GPK's. Those people did nothing even slightly trustworthy ever. Rick's entire plan relied on trusting complete strangers/weirdos with guns, who nobody even liked and seemed mentally defective.

[Gobi]

2 minutes ago, FishyJoe said:

It still boggles me why they trusted the GPK's. Those people did nothing even slightly trustworthy ever. Rick's entire plan relied on trusting complete strangers/weirdos with guns, who nobody even liked and seemed mentally defective.

Even if Rick trusted the GPK, he would have been wise to position them outside  of Alexandria for the ambush. Not just for trust purposes, but to set up an L shaped ambush.

[ShadowSixx]

It also seemed that Negan was upset because he found out Maggie is still alive when he seen her or as he calls her the widow. I think Negan is upset because Maggie won't be part of his harem. He seems to take pleasure out of taking women from their men, so why hasn't he tried to get Michonne? If trying to take Rick at the knees why not go after his woman. Is he afraid Michonne will break his skinny ass like a twig?

[smorbie]

3 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

It also seemed that Negan was upset because he found out Maggie is still alive when he seen her or as he calls her the widow. I think Negan is upset because Maggie won't be part of his harem. He seems to take pleasure out of taking women from their men, so why hasn't he tried to get Michonne? If trying to take Rick at the knees why not go after his woman. Is he afraid Michonne will break his skinny ass like a twig?

I really was afraid he was going to try to lure Sasha into his harem, but he made it clear he respected her fighting skills and courage.  I'm pretty sure he doesn't respect any of his wives.

[Irishmaple]

When I saw Maggie holding Herschel's watch as she talked I knew I was this show's bitch till the end. I remember Herschel giving that watch to Glenn. I still care about these people. No matter how frustrated I get, no matter how disappointed I feel that the writers refuse to build on the characters' strengths and tell their stories, I love most of these characters, including Tara. She used to trip over her boot laces and now she holds her own in a firefight.

I will never lose faith in Rick. It disappoints me that nothing goes wrong anywhere until Rick's people show up, but I've learned to live with that narrative choice. And, in fairness to the writers, the men of Oceanside were culled before Rick even met them. I missed Carl and wish his story had been stronger this season. He is a hardcore badass and, I feel, an important touchstone in the evolution of the story. He was a heedless little boy and now he is a kid who will shoot people before they blink. I really enjoyed seeing him in action again. I didn't like seeing Michonne taking that nasty beating but she fought hard and prevailed. I think it was to contrast her almost suicidal despair when she thought Rick had died but that's Michonne, writers. She can handle her shit.

Much as I care about the core characters, The Kingdom people joined that list. I really like Ezekiel and think the actor is doing a great job of injecting dignity into cheese. I like the woman who is always at this side and Jerry. I even miss Richard a bit. He would have loved that skirmish. 

I don't understand why Negan agreed to terms with that irritating troll Jadis. I suppose he wanted to savour the betrayal but the garbage people should be Negan or under his thumb. He was screwing Jadis over but even reaching a deal with her implies she is on somewhat equal footing. I can't see Negan and his ego accepting that. I wish Rick had tackled and shot her, and then shot Eugene. He was there to watch someone he knew die to appease Negan. I'm done with him.

I wish TPTB had been able to get Lawrence Gilliard Jr back for Sasha's exit. That would have nailed the tragedy for me. I'll miss Sasha and Sonequa Martin-Green. I didn't watch Talking Dead but I hope she got a good tribute.

[lasandi]

8 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and say it:  I love this show!!  Not every single thing about it, but overall I just love this show.  I don't need everything to make complete sense, and I am willing to suspend disbelief maybe more than I should sometimes because I just really love this show.  And what I love most about it are the characters.  They are allowed to grow and change, and we are allowed (mostly) to go along on that journey with them.  But through it all this is a group of people who have become a family and who are still, after all that's happened to them, willing to let others into that family.  They are still willing to believe that there is good in people, but they can still be pragmatic when forced to be.  And they still believe they can build a better world.  Carol started off as an abused woman who gradually became very strong, perhaps one of the strongest in the group.  But she realized she was in danger of losing the better parts of herself, so she withdrew.  Yet when her 'family' needed her, she didn't hesitate.  Father Gabriel has come into his own over the last few years.  They could have abandoned him along the way and some might argue probably should have, but they didn't, and the group is better off for having him there.  Sasha in her death showed that she still had that group sense that they are the ones who are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and she made her death count.  I'm sure she couldn't have known exactly how things would go down, but with the information she had, she knew there was enough time for her to die and turn, and I'm guessing she was maybe hoping ZombieSasha would be enough of a surprise to give her a chance to kill Negan.  She almost did it, too.  So many great people - some strong to begin with; others weaker and needing help but learning with the support of the group.  But they all feel like real people to me.  Sometimes they succeed; sometimes they fail; sometimes they're smart; sometimes they make really dumb decisions; they have good days and bad days.  Real people - not caricatures.

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rick is a terrible leader and how he's no different than Negan, and I could not disagree more.  I love Rick, and I would follow him anywhere.  He is at heart a good man.  He believes in the basic decency of people, and he wants to give them the benefit of the doubt.  But he is not an infallible person, so sometimes he screws up and sometimes things do not go according to plan.  I apparently am the only person who did not expect the trash people to turn on him.  That surprised me.  I thought the plan they had worked out with Dwight seemed fairly solid - as much as anything can be solid in their world.  A lot of people seemed to complain about his statement about taking over Alexandria, but even there he wasn't doing it for the sake of conquest but because of his desire to see those people - and his - be safe, and the Alexandrians weren't making good decisions to keep them safe.  If he had had to take over, they wouldn't have killed anyone; they wouldn't have made the Alexandrians slaves or captives.  Even with Oceanside, Rick sent Tara in first in the hopes she could get them to talk to him, but given what they knew of the group from Tara, they had to have a backup plan they could execute quickly to get them inside the camp.  And again they asked for the guns first and asked for the group to join them - they didn't just walk in guns blazing shooting anything that moved and taking what they wanted.  That's Rick's leadership.  I don't think he could ever become Negan.  He has done some questionable things because he's been driven to it, but it is always in the pursuit of keeping his people safe and free.  He stumbles sometimes, and he's not all-seeing and all-knowing, and I'm okay with that. 

I also am apparently the only one who didn't think it unrealistic that Michonne had a hard time fighting that woman.  As I remember her, she was at least the same size, if not a bit bigger, than Michonne, and she clearly worked out.  She had obvious muscles in her arms.  And she had the element of surprise.  She knew what was coming, but Michonne didn't, and in the seconds it took her to work it out, the other woman got the drop on her.  By all rights Michonne should have been shot right there, but she fought hard and ultimately won.  The Governor was bigger than she was, but he never struck me as being a physically strong person, and he always seemed like the type who would rather let others do the fighting.  And at that point Michonne was still coming off having been on her own for a long time and so at the top of her form, so to speak.  Anyway, while I would have liked to see Michonne dispatch the blonde more easily, I did not find it to be out of character either.  As I said, the other woman had the drop on her.

I loved when Shiva leapt through the air.  Realistic or not, I didn't care.  I cheered.  And I cheered again shortly after that when Maggie's group showed up.  I didn't see them as arriving at the same time but within a few minutes of each other.  And my sense at the end may be wrong, but I thought the battle was still going on in other parts of the compound while Negan was with Rick and Carl.  I assumed Negan was confident that with their greater numbers, his group would prevail, so he wasn't concerned about those still fighting near the gate and in other parts of the compound.  And I laughed at Negan's comments:  "they have a tiger?" and the widow's alive one.  But they also served for me to show just how different Negan and Rick are.  Negan fights and kills because he enjoys it.  He appreciated the fact that his opponents had a tiger and that Maggie was fighting him.  But he wasn't concerned; it was just all part of the game for him.  With his arrogance, it never would occur to him that he wouldn't win in the end, so that was just all making it 'better' for him - more enjoyable - more fun.  Rick fights and kills because he feels he has to to protect his family.  He doesn't enjoy it the way Negan does.  I get no sense that it gives him pleasure as it does Negan. 

My only real gripe about the episode, to be honest, is that it felt like most of the additional time was given over to commercials.  Someone had posted to Facebook that the finale was going to be aired commercial-free, so I was all psyched for it.  But then it wasn't, and it seemed like the commercial breaks went on forever.  And I am so happy it didn't end on a cliffhanger.  I'll forgive a lot for that reason alone.  :)

But at the end of the evening, I was a happy camper.  I've really enjoyed this season once I got over losing Glenn.  I still miss him.  I will miss Sasha.  But we've gotten some great new characters like Jesus and Ezekiel and Jerry and some of the others.  I'm looking forward to next season and seeing how the three groups come together and work as a unit against Negan and his group. 

Oh LadyMustang65 I am glad that you wrote all of this.  I was so busy feeling disappointed becuz I didn't get my "they are messing with the wrong people" group back that I forgot why I love them in the first place, flaws and all.  It felt like I had been waiting the entire season to get things back to normal.  After all no one likes to see the characters they like beaten down.  It was taking so long that it was starting to remind me of the length of time it took Jason Morgan to get his memory back on GH.  Anyhou, I am glad you reminded me....my walking dead love continues.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Probably when they realize that they should be shooting at the tires of an escaping truck, not the body of the truck.  Which means? Never.

Thank you.  I now know I am not alone in the universe.

 

8 hours ago, Boofish said:

Why can't someone else be just as strong and capable as Michonne? Why is it so hard to believe that women could beat her ass if she had the upper hand/element of surprise. Or I don't know - she is just as strong, smart, capable and strategic as Michonne. Michonne is not an invincible superhero. She lost a fight and now she's "useless" or her character is somehow diminished?

Plus - wasn't Trashy Sniper wearing some degree of body armor?

 

8 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I think of Eugene as the James Garner character in Support Your Local Sheriff/Gunfighter. (He even has the pompadour.)

Buddy, you just named two of my favorites.

 

8 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Ok so Sasha was supposed to pop out of the casket (still alive) and do what? Wasn't she supposed to kill one of the CDB to atone to Negan? She would have needed a weapon right? Where was it?  Also, she died in the casket, she should have had the iPod on and ear buds in when she came out right? That would have been funny actually. It's the details folks, it's the details. 

I expect Negan had a whole set of histrionics planned around this little bit of funereal window-dressing - something along the lines of:

"Well, let's open up this coffin here - and see, what did I tell you?  Sasha, safe and sound and beautiful as ever. (Have a nice nap, girl?)  Just like I promised, not a hair harmed on her pretty little head.  Come on out of there, Sasha, and let them get a good look at you."

"...but wait a minute.  Something's wrong now, and what could it be?  Hmmm?  Let me think on it a second.... I got it! What's wrong now is MY -COFFIN - IS - NOW - EMMMMMP-TYYYYY!!!   Now, that's not right!  I came here with a full coffin, and you know it's JUST NOT RIGHT for me to be leaving with an empty coffin!  I mean, what use is an empty coffin to anybody?  A coffin without a body in it - why, that's just hauling around dead weight, isn't it?  ("Dead weight" - get it?)  So I guess we should remedy this situation IMMEDIATELY!!!"

"Soooooo, Ricky... who are we going to put in my coffin?  Tell you what - I'll let YOU pick...."

 

4 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I don't think Negan knew it was Michonne.  He saw Rick react to the scream, and then he said "you just lost someone."  But I didn't get any sense that he knew it was Michonne or even that Rick and Michonne were a couple.  He just heard the scream, saw Rick's reaction, and put two and two together.

My interpretation as well.

 

24 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Yet not one single person pipes up and says 'you know, something doesn't smell right with these GPKs'. 

Well.. they do, you know, kinda live in a dump....

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, RainOnToosdays said:

I recall a raid on that compound where they killed everyone as they slept, the roadside bunch Daryl sent to oblivion with the rocket launcher, and the ones Carol and Maggie killed & burnt up. What were the other two that made 5? I can't even remember what triggered the initial, uh, animosity between Team Rick and the Saviors.

1. Biker BBQ

2. Outpost raid.

3. Maggie and Carol take no prisoners.

4. Denise on the tracks. A few killed but the rest made to run.  Except Dwight, who was limping.

5.  The "don't stop for hitchhikers named Carol" crew.

I estimate that around 50 total.  Maybe more.  The bikerQ started it.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Timetoread

[TigerLynx]

Yeah Negan said something like, "You killed my people.  I sent some of my people to kill you, and you killed them.  Then I sent some more of my people after you, and you killed some of them."  Of course, this makes Negan and his people look really dumb to.

Supposedly, the reason Rick's group and others haven't tried to sneak away is that Negan {rolls eyes} is everywhere {rolls eyes}.  However, everyone has been running around all over the place with no problem.  Rick and a whole group of people went to Hilltop, then trekked over to the Kingdom, met up with the junkyard idiots, and then back to Alexandria.  Tara went to Oceanside and back.  Rick and Michonne located guns, a carnival, and got that nice deer killed.  They went trouping over to Oceanside, caused chaos, blew stuff up, and went back to Alexandria.  Carl and Jesus hitched a ride on a Savior truck, and the only reason Negan found out is because Carl killed some Saviors and tried to kill Negan.  They still don't know Jesus hopped off the truck, was running around the compound, and then left on a Savior truck.  Speaking of which, since ninja Jesus defies the laws of nature with all this invisible skulking about, why the hell hasn't he killed Negan?  Sasha and Rosita went to the compound, and Sasha got inside, and Rosita went back to Alexandria with Dwight.  Daryl escaped went to Hilltop, went to the Kingdom, and then went back to Hilltop.  A freaking elephant could sneak up on and away from these people with no problem.

They've dragged Negan's SL out to long like they did with the Governor.  I liked the Terminus arc.  There was action, things happened, and they moved on.

Did Hilltop and the Kingdom people meet up on the road?  Was is just a coincidence that they all arrived together?

I like the idea of making Shiva the leader.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

So either Gimple thinks we're stupid (and anyone reading these pages knows that TWD fans are definitely NOT stupid) or he doesn't CARE what we think as long as he gets paid.

Or maybe he does care and he's stupid, really and truly believing what we get is great art? A depressing option, but it's possible.

 

5 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Speaking of which, since ninja Jesus defies the laws of nature with all this invisible skulking about, why the hell hasn't he killed Negan? 

He defies the laws of gravity too. He just does all this shit because he can - skulking, backflips and leaping to the tops of trucks with his Cloak of Invisibility and all that cool stuff(which is actually all pretty useless wastes of time I personally find tedious), but killing? Not his thing, I don't think.

[tennisgurl]

I haven't read all of the pages here yet, but some thoughts:

I don't care if it makes no sense Shiva leading the attack against the Saviors was fucking AWESOME! I know that a Tiger would have attacked anyone (except maybe Ezekiel?) but I don't care, Negan ran away screaming from a TIGER! He was just like "blah blah blah I'm so awesome and the most benevolent overlord in the ZA blah blah blah OMG FUCKING TIGER AHHHH!!!". Totally worth it.

You mean the creepy, dead eyed trash people were actually bad guys?!?! Color me shocked. I have no idea why they wanted to work with the Garbage Pail Kids in the first place. Everything about them screams "Don't Trust Us". Looks like she made a deal with Negan, so does that mean we will see them again? Oh joy.

I figured Sasha would die, but it still sucked to see. At least she went out fighting, by literally turning her corpse into a weapon. I'm surprised no one has thought about doing that already.

Maggie's speech was nice, but WAY too long. It reminded me of way back at the Farm, when Rick went on that long ass rant about Carl talking about a deer after he got accidently shot. We get it, show. There are good things even in a shitty world. Its a good lesson, but you can say that without rambling on for like 30 years.

Honestly, this season had a lot of problems, like with Rick making dumb choices, too many episodes focusing on small groups of one or two people, and Negan being the most annoying villain we`ve had in ages, but I still mostly enjoyed the season. I liked a lot of the new characters, we ended on a pretty kickass fight scene, I liked seeing the alliances between the different groups (hey, not EVERYONE other than Ricks group is an idiot or a psycho!), and we had a tiger as a supporting character. That alone makes up for at least 4 long winded Negan monologues. And, unlike a lot of seasons, I'm actually excited for next season! So, here we are.

[Pixiebomb]

I really don't know why anyone is surprised that Rick let the Junk yard Gang get the jump on him.  He's never really had a good game plan. Vatos?  Terminus?   Grady Memorial?   A meet up point after the prison?   Remember episode 1, season 1?   We met Rick as he is getting shot because he (they-the cops) did not figure out there was a third perp in the car.   Sloppy. Stupid is as stupid does. 

But I still like him - I'll always root for him.  And he did a pretty good job of fighting off the Govenor the first time they attacked the prison. 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, RainOnToosdays said:

 

Also - who is this Jerry I see mentioned several times here in the comments?

I think he's the cobbler guy with the beautiful smile. 

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Real cats don't work that way. They know you, don't know you, you're mean to them or nice to them - you'll still get disembowled if they get irritated. This is the way of wild animals and why no one has "watch cats." CGI cats, OTOH, can do anything their creators think up, including charging at people and somehow knowing they're "bad guys" and wanting to protect their human friends. As if.

On a totally shallow note - Aaron? Looking good with the rugged beard these days. I hope no one else decks him for no reason. His little dweeby b/f? Not so much.

I knew you would respond to that. :) I did say that I was attributing too much to a CGI tiger. It's a world with zombies, and I have small cats that are way more affectionate than I am. I've never been mean to them, though. So, a fake tiger got pissy with the right people. 

Anyway, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but the animal was supposed to be loyal to one person: Ezekiel. You wouldn't catch me in a pen with a tiger, saying "here, kitty kitty."

Edited April 4, 2017 by Anela

[J----av]

7 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Lol! Shitty acting? Poor kid has barely had a mouthful of words to speak this 2nd half of the season. Personally I cant believe he still has the hat and that its still holding up.

I didn't mind this season finale. Shit-ton better than the torture porn of last season's I'll tell ya that. Plus I did get a kick out of Rick slowly backing away when Jadis propositioned him, like, "No thanks lady, Ima pass on that."

 Do you know why they have not given him any lines? Because he can't act!

[AngelaHunter]

2 minutes ago, Anela said:

So, a fake tiger got pissy with the right people. 

I know. I have little kittehs too - the most timid creatures that ever lived. It's not the tiger, per se. It's just another sign of how this show keeps getting more and more cartoonish to the point where I expect to see Wile E. Coyote show up with some Acme TNT.

 

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Negan ran away screaming from a TIGER! He was just like "blah blah blah I'm so awesome and the most benevolent overlord in the ZA blah blah blah OMG FUCKING TIGER AHHHH!!!".

That was the best part, although the way that he knew nothing about a giant tiger all this time was eye-rollingly clunky. They're obviously using the entire CGI budget on the tiger, since the way she was chewing on that guy's head was impressively realistic.  

[Anela]

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I haven't read all of the pages here yet, but some thoughts:

I don't care if it makes no sense Shiva leading the attack against the Saviors was fucking AWESOME! I know that a Tiger would have attacked anyone (except maybe Ezekiel?) but I don't care, Negan ran away screaming from a TIGER! He was just like "blah blah blah I'm so awesome and the most benevolent overlord in the ZA blah blah blah OMG FUCKING TIGER AHHHH!!!". Totally worth it.

 

Best part of the episode.

[J----av]

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I have once again realized, I really really want a pet Tiger like Shiva.

This should have been the series finale.  When Maggie was talking about Glenn, there should have been flashbacks of Glenn and everyone.  One of them showing how Rick and Glenn first met.

The junkyard idiots never should have existed.  Tara should have gone to Oceanside, talked to Cyndie, and gotten them to join them.

Zombie Sasha should have killed Simon.

After Shiva attacked, Carl should have put two bullets in Negan's head, and told his corpse, "You know why you are dead?  You talk to much.  If you would have just shut up, and gotten on with the killing, the Tiger wouldn't have had time to save me."

Carol should have gotten to blow up stuff and set things on fire.  Michonne should have gotten to toss three people off a roof, and use her katana.

If Dwight really is against Negan, he and Eugene should have been working together to unite other people in the Saviors who are also against Negan, and I'm sure there are some who would like to get away from bat head smashing Negan.

Instead there was a whole lot of nothing going on, with only a few moments of action.

 Well that sounds even worse and like some cheesy fan fic

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

Oh, I didn't love to hate him, either.  I just hate hated him.  And I hate hated him in Dr. Who, too, even though he was a sympathetic character.

Oh wow, I couldn't remember what episode he was in so I looked it up.  I actually quite liked that episode.

[maystone]

I'm in the minority in that I was completely shocked that GPK betrayed our guys. Was not expecting that at all. From everything that we've seen through Rick's interactions with Jadisco, their overwhelming guiding principle is passivity. (That's probably not the best word choice but hang in there.) Their motto is "We take. We don't bother." They waited for months if not years for someone else to stumble across that supply boat and scavenge it for them. Rick seem gobsmacked by that, too. Betrayal requires action, and they just didn't strike me as the types who would go out looking for a better deal than the one they got pretty much handed to them. I'd say Rick was thinking the same thing.

Negan found out about the alliance somehow and made them a better deal - whatever it was. Eugene had been taken before GPK came into the story, so it wasn't through him. Did Gregory know? How much info would anyone give the little weasel? It wasn't Dwight. It could be that Negan's group captured some of Jadis's people, and that's how the story came out and a new deal was struck. Maybe GPK gets to keep the weapons and get 10 of their people back. It's all very cryptic. Anyway the bottom line for me is that there was no "Of course they're going to betray you!" tell. If anything Jadis was saying things like the times are changing and maybe it's time to change with them. This was during their first meeting, btw. They're obviously a weird little subgroup of survivors, but they did seem to have a code of ethics, or maybe code of conduct would be more apt.

So, yeah, from where I was watching this play out, that was a big HELL NO moment.

[smorbie]

46 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Oh wow, I couldn't remember what episode he was in so I looked it up.  I actually quite liked that episode.

It was good; they all are, actually.  I just wish it hadn't been him, you know?

[Macbeth]

On 4/3/2017 at 7:47 PM, Irishmaple said:

When I saw Maggie holding Herschel's watch as she talked I knew I was this show's bitch till the end. I remember Herschel giving that watch to Glenn. I still care about these people. No matter how frustrated I get, no matter how disappointed I feel that the writers refuse to build on the characters' strengths and tell their stories, I love most of these characters, including Tara. She used to trip over her boot laces and now she holds her own in a firefight.

I am right there with you Irishmaple.  I loved Maggie's tribute to Glenn at the end.  Because it all started when Glenn saved Rick,  I had tears in my eyes.  A proper eulogy was finally given for him.

And Tara's awkward and doesn't fit with the cool kids, but when Rosita was shot last night - Tara ran over to help her off the battlefield.

Major props to Sonequa with the acting challenge she had last night.  I can only imagine the direction she was given.  "Sasha is dying in the coffin - but we don't want the audience know from the start of the scene that you are dying - so you have to die without letting the audience know that you are dying - got it.  So you will be sad but not so sad.  And there will be no pain.  Even though you poisoned yourself - and there generally is pain when that happens - you can show no pain.  Got it??"  She made it work.  An impossible acting scene and Sonequa made it work.

On 4/3/2017 at 10:17 PM, maystone said:

Negan found out about the alliance somehow and made them a better deal - whatever it was.

I can't believe no one has posted this:

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Macbeth

[bmoore4026]

13 hours ago, JackONeill said:

TWD was successful early on because it hit that sweet spot where a lot of people have keen interest -- the end of days, fall of civilization, whatever you want to call it. And zombies have always been considered...cool. They are the ultimate bad guy. They have no feelings. They can't talk. They do what they do only to eat (they know no right or wrong). And they are tough to kill. To put everyday people up against zombies I think will always be interesting. How do we survive? That's always an interesting concept, be it a snow storm, a tsunami, or a herd of zombies.

And that's what TWD presented in the first few seasons: Man's survival.

But then TPTB started introducing more of the graphic novel elements. The Governor, and I'd argue the earlier version of Michonne (a mono-syllabic Clint Eastwood with katanas), was the start. But even they came to humaized in many ways, so, largely, no real harm was done.

 But now we have a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire called "Lucille," a tiger, a character who's part-Ninja named Jesus, etc. And now we have the worst part of graphic novels -- GRAPHIC. There is no more subtlety; instead, it's all about the big scene and big killings. That might be okay if those scenes were effectively done...but they aren't.

In a graphic novel little things define characters. Think katanas for Michonne. With TV though, you need more characterization because there's more downtime by the very

You can call them what they are - - comic books.  And Negan is a comic book supervillain.  And a Gary Stu to boot.  I have a feeling Negan is Kirkman's shadow or power fantasy expy or something.

[AngelaHunter]

19 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

And Negan is a comic book supervillain. 

If trains were still running, he's so evil he'd be tying people to the tracks, with cartoonish, evil laughter -  "Muaha-ha-ha"s.  I definitely do think Negan (and the Gov, maybe Shane, Rick, etc) are all Kirkman's fantasy self-insertions or alter-egos.

Maybe Rick should have started telling Jar Jar Jadis the story about the rock in the road while she was holding that gun on him. Maybe she would have keeled over with boredom, as I did.

[mmecorday]

I watched the season finale with my girlfriend tonight and she asked me, as Negan was telling Rick that he was going to kill Carl and then Lucille would take Rick's hands, "Please tell me no one gets Lucille'd." I could have been heartless and said, "Just watch." But since I saw her heart was visibly bouncing against her shirt, I told her, "No, hun. Just watch."

[magemaud]

When they stood that enormous casket containing Turned Sasha upright on the truck bed, wasn't it UPSIDE DOWN? Isn't the smaller section where the person's head and upper body should be when it's opened for a viewing? Imagine what an even bigger surprise there would have been if Sasha had somersaulted out after standing on her head!

Edited April 4, 2017 by magemaud

[Anela]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

If trains were still running, he's so evil he'd be tying people to the tracks, with cartoonish, evil laughter -  "Muaha-ha-ha"s.  I definitely do think Negan (and the Gov, maybe Shane, Rick, etc) are all Kirkman's fantasy self-insertions or alter-egos.

Maybe Rick should have started telling Jar Jar Jadis the story about the rock in the road while she was holding that gun on him. Maybe she would have keeled over with boredom, as I did.

Whenever I've seen anything to do with TWD, since reading your comment earlier, about the coyote, I picture the roadrunner going "meep meep" and rushing past Negan. Haha! 

[Gobi]

7 hours ago, maystone said:

I'm in the minority in that I was completely shocked that GPK betrayed our guys. Was not expecting that at all. From everything that we've seen through Rick's interactions with Jadisco, their overwhelming guiding principle is passivity. (That's probably not the best word choice but hang in there.) Their motto is "We take. We don't bother." They waited for months if not years for someone else to stumble across that supply boat and scavenge it for them. Rick seem gobsmacked by that, too. Betrayal requires action, and they just didn't strike me as the types who would go out looking for a better deal than the one they got pretty much handed to them. I'd say Rick was thinking the same thing.

Negan found out about the alliance somehow and made them a better deal - whatever it was. Eugene had been taken before GPK came into the story, so it wasn't through him. Did Gregory know? How much info would anyone give the little weasel? It wasn't Dwight. It could be that Negan's group captured some of Jadis's people, and that's how the story came out and a new deal was struck. Maybe GPK gets to keep the weapons and get 10 of their people back. It's all very cryptic. Anyway the bottom line for me is that there was no "Of course they're going to betray you!" tell. If anything Jadis was saying things like the times are changing and maybe it's time to change with them. This was during their first meeting, btw. They're obviously a weird little subgroup of survivors, but they did seem to have a code of ethics, or maybe code of conduct would be more apt.

So, yeah, from where I was watching this play out, that was a big HELL NO moment.

I think Jadis gave a really quick explanation to Rick as to how the alliance with Negan came about, but I didn't quite catch it. Something about scavenging. In any event, why was Negan so willing to be nice to the GPK? When that ASZhat, whose name  I've forgotten, hinted at replacing Rick, Negan gutted him like a fish. Yet, he treats the GPK as equals, no Lucilling or anything.

[smorbie]

I didn't catch Jar Jar's explanation, but probably wouldn't have understood it.  She started her usual blathering, we take, we don't bother, we made a better deal, and that's all I heard.  But, I think I will rerewatch it later today and see what sticks this time.  She's such a chore to listen to or ever look at (she can't find hair dye in a looted store?  Kind of doubt that was a popular survival item) that I tend to tune her out.  It's a technique I developed to allow my television to survive.

But, someone said upthread that they thought Negan had taken a bunch of the heapsters prisoner and she was negotiating for their release.

[TigerLynx]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

He defies the laws of gravity too. He just does all this shit because he can - skulking, backflips and leaping to the tops of trucks with his Cloak of Invisibility and all that cool stuff(which is actually all pretty useless wastes of time I personally find tedious), but killing? Not his thing, I don't think.

So yet another person who wants someone else to do the killing in the ZA.  Which brings me to Dwight.  What is Dwight's plan?  To only switch sides when someone else has more fire power than Negan, and Negan is dead?  Dwight can take the time to write something on a toy soldier, but he can't take even one shot at Negan unless he is guaranteed to be on the winning side and come out alive.

This is another reason Rick and Company should have gotten the hell out of Dodge, or snuck out of Dodge.  Better an enemy you know wants to kill you, or people who straight up tell you they want no part of your fight, than supposed allies who don't step up when needed.

I wasn't spoiled, but I thought from day one Rick was dumb for giving those guns to the junkyard idiots especially after Rick brought them guns, and their idiot response was more guns then fight.

[Eucrid]

I though JDM was a lot better in this episode. I've felt all along that his character was a parallel to Ezekiel in that he puts on a big act for his followers. This episode is the first time I think JDMs performance has really shown that though. When Rick tells him he's going to kill him he looks genuinely confused and scared before he starts laughing, its like when you watch a UFC fight and if a fighter gets caught with a punch early he'll back off smiling, its a reaction that shows fear. To me thats what Negans laughing was.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Eucrid

[JackONeill]

7 minutes ago, Eucrid said:

I though JDM was a lot better in this episode. I've felt all along that his character was a parallel to Ezekiel in that he puts on a big act for his followers. This episode is the first time I think JDMs performance has really shown that though. When Rick tells him he's going to kill him he looks genuinely confused and scared before he starts laughing, its like when you watch a UFC fight and if a fighter gets caught with a punch early he'll back off smiling, its a reaction that shows fear. To me thats what Negans laughing was.

To carry on your thought, I thought this was the first time we saw Negan "unfiltered." I agree with you that like Zeke he likes making pronouncements to audiences. But this episode we saw some impromptu moments, such as when Sasha popped out of the coffin and, of course, when Shiva came flying past him to snag the other guy. There were no speeches then, and both times he acted like a person, not some impervious super-baddy.

[Josette]

At the end, when Jesus tackled Sasha, I thought he was actually putting her down because Maggie stood around forever looking sad before finally pulling out her knife to do the job.  I mean, poor Jesus was holding down a walker while Maggie was busy with her feelings.

[AngelaHunter]

12 hours ago, J----av said:

Well that sounds even worse and like some cheesy fan fic

 If it sounded like fanfic, there would have been something like,

"Negan makes Daryl his Omega sex slave and impregnates him with his pups."

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think Jadis gave a really quick explanation to Rick as to how the alliance with Negan came about, but I didn't quite catch it.

I totally missed it. Was it in disjointed monosyllabic words? Whoever dreamed up the third-rate Mad Max clones GPK for this show needs to pushed out a window, along with everyone who enthusiastically cheered the idea.

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

What is Dwight's plan?  To only switch sides when someone else has more fire power than Negan, and Negan is dead? 

I don't even care what his plan is. He's a vile worm and nothing can redeem him after his behavior, IMO, and I want him dead dead dead. I wish it had been his head Shiva was gnawing on.

 

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I wasn't spoiled, but I thought from day one Rick was dumb for giving those guns to the junkyard idiots especially after Rick brought them guns

That was so totally, completely out of character I was wondering if Rick was in some fugue state, or hypnotized or a pod person. It was nutty and one of the dumbest things on a show getting increasingly dumb. He was ready to take over and dominate the harmless ASZhats, yet he instantly rolls over for the weirdo, treacherous garbage people, who attacked his gang and would have happily watched Winslow kill him. Makes sense, I guess.  

[SherriAnt]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎03 at 0:14 AM, Happy Harpy said:

I don't feel like watching the show anymore

 

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎03 at 0:14 AM, Happy Harpy said:

But I don't think I'll manage to watch again until the war is over and the Saviors gone.

I kept saying this to my hubs while watching, I think this episode was my shark jumping moment.

[MV007]

12 hours ago, maystone said:

I'm in the minority in that I was completely shocked that GPK betrayed our guys. Was not expecting that at all. From everything that we've seen through Rick's interactions with Jadisco, their overwhelming guiding principle is passivity. (That's probably not the best word choice but hang in there.) Their motto is "We take. We don't bother." They waited for months if not years for someone else to stumble across that supply boat and scavenge it for them. Rick seem gobsmacked by that, too. Betrayal requires action, and they just didn't strike me as the types who would go out looking for a better deal than the one they got pretty much handed to them. I'd say Rick was thinking the same thing

The "We take. We don't bother." motto can imply passivity.  But it also implies that they take the easiest route possible.  They have no loyalty to anything or anyone.  Rick should've understood this because they straight up told him.  This motto tells Rick, "hey if something better comes along, we'll go with that".  And yet Rick didn't conceive of a possibility where he was blindsided by these morons. 

 

14 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Or maybe he does care and he's stupid, really and truly believing what we get is great art? A depressing option, but it's possible.

I don't believe this is possible.  I believe this is actually whats happening.  The way these people talk about their show, you'd think they made "The Wire".

[bmoore4026]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

If trains were still running, he's so evil he'd be tying people to the tracks, with cartoonish, evil laughter -  "Muaha-ha-ha"s. 

Don't forget the handle-bar mustache and Carol, Maggie, Morgan, Ezekiel, Shiva, and possibly Clementine from the computer games showing up dressed as Mounties.

[AngelaHunter]

6 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

Don't forget the handle-bar mustache and Carol, Maggie, Morgan, Ezekiel, Shiva, and possibly Clementine from the computer games showing up dressed as Mounties.

Good will always triumph over evil!

 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

All-Out War Begins With A Twist On The Walking Dead

Rick, Negan, Eugene, and especially Sasha light the fuse in the fight for Alexandria.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

That was so totally, completely out of character I was wondering if Rick was in some fugue state, or hypnotized or a pod person. It was nutty and one of the dumbest things on a show getting increasingly dumb. He was ready to take over and dominate the harmless ASZhats, yet he instantly rolls over for the weirdo, treacherous garbage people, who attacked his gang and would have happily watched Winslow kill him. Makes sense, I guess.  

I didn't get it either.  Rick's actions just made no sense.  Maybe the junkyard bitch's bangs hypnotized him.  Seriously though, I actually do think he was weirdly attracted to her. 

[SherriAnt]

16 hours ago, smorbie said:

I've quit three so far since December, and I only watch about six to begin with.  I win!

Now I want to know which ones because I quit a couple this year too.

 

17 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

rapid!", "tougher", "Me likey wee wee"

I'm going to say these to my hubs from now on, lol.

[smorbie]

Mr. Robot, Better Call Saul, and The Americans.

You?

52 minutes ago, MV007 said:

The "We take. We don't bother." motto can imply passivity.  But it also implies that they take the easiest route possible.  They have no loyalty to anything or anyone.  Rick should've understood this because they straight up told him.  This motto tells Rick, "hey if something better comes along, we'll go with that".  And yet Rick didn't conceive of a possibility where he was blindsided by these morons. 

Or, it could be because their conversational skills are not up to par with the rest of the worlds.  Maybe Judith should have been called in to interpret.

[TigerLynx]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I don't even care what his plan is. He's a vile worm and nothing can redeem him after his behavior, IMO, and I want him dead dead dead. I wish it had been his head Shiva was gnawing on. 

Dwight reminds me of something Gus said to Jake in Lonesome Dove, "A man who will go along with this many killings/murders is taking his leaving a little slowly."

Quote

That was so totally, completely out of character I was wondering if Rick was in some fugue state, or hypnotized or a pod person. It was nutty and one of the dumbest things on a show getting increasingly dumb. He was ready to take over and dominate the harmless ASZhats, yet he instantly rolls over for the weirdo, treacherous garbage people, who attacked his gang and would have happily watched Winslow kill him. Makes sense, I guess.  

I can accept Zombies in a show, and a Tiger coming to the rescue.  It's when they turn characters who were smart or competent (not perfect) into complete morons that I get annoyed.

27 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Or, it could be because their conversational skills are not up to par with the rest of the worlds.  Maybe Judith should have been called in to interpret.

Hee!!!.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, MV007 said:

 The way these people talk about their show, you'd think they made "The Wire".

Or "The Sopranos." Can't someone go beg David Chase to help them fix this mess they've created, teach them how real adults speak to each other, and what pacing really means?

 

49 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

 Rick's actions just made no sense.  Maybe the junkyard bitch's bangs hypnotized him.  Seriously though, I actually do think he was weirdly attracted to her.

I think so too. There was way more of the eye-thing going on with her than we've seen with Michonne.

Quote

Dwight reminds me of something Gus said to Jake in Lonesome Dove, "A man who will go along with this many killings/murders is taking his leaving a little slowly."

It's not even murders that make me hate him - it's the small nastiness of his stealing Daryl's clothes, swaggering around the Sanctuary and confiscating pickles or whatever else he wanted from people who can't protest and being an asshole bully because he can.

Edited April 4, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[LadyMustang65]

17 hours ago, RainOnToosdays said:

Also - who is this Jerry I see mentioned several times here in the comments?

Jerry is the heavyset young man who attends King Ezekiel.  He's a sweetie.  :)

[rmontro]

You know, if Negan likes to play pool, there has to be plenty of pool tables around to be found.  I can't believe they would be a rare thing.  Send a few Saviors out to find and pick one up, I bet they come back with one the same day.

[AngelaHunter]

About Sasha - couldn't what Eugene said to Negan be true, that Sasha could have died of suffocation? Aren't coffins pretty much air-tight? Wouldn't Eugene have known this beforehand?

Just read the Prev.Tv recap, which mentions how Rick is fine an hour after being shot in the gut (I thought he was shot in the leg at first - bad enough). How did he do that? Who dug the bullet out? Why wasn't he showing signs of excruciating pain? I see I'm going to have to rewatch for a change.

Kudos to whoever made Shiva look so real - I think she's the best CGI animal I've seen outside of Jurassic Park:

They didn't even forget the white spot on the ear.

 

[MrsR]

The real Shiva is some sort of large dog who was trained to jump on one of his trainers. That's why a Red Shirt got it and not Negan, it had to be a trained stunt person who works with said trained dog. 

Then they CGI the tiger over the dog. 

[HighMaintenance]

Ex-TWOPer here.  REPRESENT!

I too actually enjoy reading these threads more than I like watching the show.  Not because it's fashionable to snark on TWD (btw snark comes from a special place deep in my little black heart), but because it is cathartic to me (and possibly to many viewers) to bitch about a show that we once truly enjoyed.  TWD has now devolved into a bad SyFy series.  AMC took a show with great promise and a devoted fan base of horror/fantasy/sci-fi devotees and basically crapped all over it.  AMC ramped up the advertising to story ratio, cut the budget back significantly, let an egocentric comic book writer take the helm, continuously swapped out writers and directors so there was no consistent "feel" from week to week and drug out story lines way beyond their expiration date.  Will I be back for season 8, meh... I'm 50/50 on it at this time.  I WILL not entertain the thought of watching another season of a nonsensical pile of zombie poo that is Fear The Walking Dead.

After musing and pouting about the season finale, I do believe I have some definitive answers about some of the questions that some of you upthread had asked:

Jadis & Negan's verbal exchange regarding 10.... 12..... 10...  She was negotiating the # of minutes Negan had to stay silent during their encounters.

The reason Rick didn't bother to say any final words to Carl. *Spoiler* Carl was never in any danger because he was wearing the "Hat of Invulnerability".

How did Shiva know to attack the bad guys and not an Alexandrian?  If you review the episode you will see Ezekiel just off camera with a laser pointer.