S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[lovinbob]

Yeah, I think most people would have. But it's also very hard to walk in heels if you can't even drive, yet Maddie still did it.

Considering that every scene in this show appears to be carefully shot and very intentional, whether or not it's a contrivance is irrelevant. In fact, that it is far-fetched makes me think that we should pay attention. It tells us something about the characters, their motivations, and by the end, how those things may have changed.

[Guest]

I think the shoes mattered somewhat in that it set the tone for an important aspect of the setting-- that women here would wear designer dresses and heels to drop off a small child at school because they'd see other moms for two minutes and be judged, sometimes brutally.  Or just that Maddie was playing into that group dynamic.  

[JBC344]

I also think Jane's kindness and Maddy's curiosity about the new family in town is what lead to her accepting the ride from Jane.  If it had been one of the other mothers I'm sure Maddy would of sucked it up and powered through with her ankle, but because it was Jane she took the opportunity to talk to and get to know her.

[Blakeston]

17 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I figured Bonnie signed the petition like a lot of people do-- just to not have to say no to whoever stopped her and asked her.  If she had some moral objection to the play, I don't think she would've told Maddie she wouldn't have signed it if she'd realized what it was.  Isn't that what she said?  

Bonnie told Madeline that when she signed the petition, she didn't know Madeline was involved. She never said anything to suggest that she didn't know what the petition was about.

[Razzberry]

23 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Yes, of course, tons of it. And if this was a community in the midwest or south, or a religious private school or something similar, I would have totally got it. But liberal, hippie coastal Northern California, with a bunch of Silicon Valley parents? Just doesn't pass the smell test for me, and I live in a very Red State, but have also lived in both Northern and Southern California. 

I hear you, but this is a completely fictional Monterey in many ways, to better serve the story.   I've heard it described as a working class tourist town with fabulous views, and that seems pretty accurate.  It does seem a bit more conservative than, say, Santa Cruz, but any mayoral concern over fucking puppets would probably come from a desire to remain uncontroversial and tourist friendly.

[JBC344]

19 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Bonnie told Madeline that when she signed the petition, she didn't know Madeline was involved. She never said anything to suggest that she didn't know what the petition was about.

I think it could of been a little of Bonnie wanting to fit in, also who knows how the person described the play to Bonnie.  I don't think she would of necessarily admitted that to Maddy.  Or maybe Bonnie just didn't find the play appropriate for whatever reason. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Bonnie told Madeline that when she signed the petition, she didn't know Madeline was involved. She never said anything to suggest that she didn't know what the petition was about.

I thought she also said she would never have signed it if she'd known Maddie was involved.  Maybe I'm remembering book dialog, though.  Not terribly important, either way.  I think I used to sign petitions sight unseen to make the asker go away.  Not so much anymore.  

[Razzberry]

It was surprising that Bonnie would sign such a petition in the first place, but apparently there's more to her than meets the eye.   I never got the sense that she didn't know what she signed, only that she was unaware of Maddy's involvement.  Curious position for her laid back hippy lifestyle.

[JBC344]

That is why I think it had more to do with fitting in with the other mothers.  From Bonnie's perspective, she's the "young mom". black, raising a biracial child, and married to a man who doesn't have the best past in their current small community.

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, JBC344 said:

 

That is why I think it had more to do with fitting in with the other mothers. 

 

Maybe, but she doesn't strike me as caring about fitting in with a bunch of snobs.  All she had to say was she was pressured or didn't know what she was signing, but she didn't (that I can recall).  Plus, she did just kill a guy.  Not that he didn't need killin'.

[Mabinogia]

2 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Maybe, but she doesn't strike me as caring about fitting in with a bunch of snobs.

If anything she would want to fit in for Skye. When Nathan talked about leaving she made a point of saying how much Skye liked it there. I think she didn't much care either way about the play so she signed the petition to not make waves. She said she wouldn't have signed if she'd known about Madeline's involvement, which means she didn't feel strongly either way about the play. She was asked to sign, she didn't care about the topic, so she signed. If she actually cared, then Madeline's involvement wouldn't have stopped her from signing.

I'll sign a petition for something that doesn't matter to me either way just to not be lectured by the person asking about why I should sign. It was only a petition to pick a different play, it probably didn't seem like that big a deal to her.

[Tdoc72]

On 4/3/2017 at 8:28 PM, stanleyk said:

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

Also he said HE was going to Phoenix and would be back whenever. It wasn't until she said she had plans to go to the play, that he switched it into a couples trip and was sad she didn't want to go and spend time with him. Extremely manipulative!

Edited April 8, 2017 by Tdoc72
Was is not the same as wasn't.

[Cardie]

13 hours ago, JBC344 said:

That is why I think it had more to do with fitting in with the other mothers

Remember also that Bonnie runs a business as a yoga instructor. You don't want to rock the boat and scare away potential customers. Because she probably didn't care one way or another about the play, it was easy to sign.

[STOPSHOUTING]

I was reading something about the finale and it struck me that, for those that think it's too neat that Perry is also Jane's rapist/Ziggy's father, which I do know is canon from the book, there's actually another way to look at that perfectly shot moment of recognition between the women in the finale. They could just be a group of women in the world, all of whom have experienced abuse, in some form or another, from a man, or, at the very least, seen other women endure it. That they are just recognizing the universal "this is an abuser" and women all know what that is on some level. Perry's mask fell off and he couldn't hide who he was, especially from women, because WE KNOW, and he knows we see him.

Again, I'm aware the more literal interpretation, which I do actually think the show meant to convey, is that they all see/realize that Perry IS Jane's rapist AND a beater of his wife, Celeste. But, I think the way it was shot and edited allows for either interpretation and, on a lot of levels, I sort of like the idea that these women can silently come together with just a look simply because THAT'S WHAT WOMEN DO. We bond. We nurture. We protect. And when we have to, when we're pushed too far, we fight back. Together.

Edited April 8, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[AAEBoiler]

Ok, I apologize if I missed it skimming all the pages (and haven't read the book ... yet) but why do the interviews keep referring to "trivia night" when the gala was all about the Elvis karaoke?

Also on a snarky note, were Nicole Kidman's acting cues for "how to channel being afraid" to think about Tom Cruise recruiting her into Scientology?

[ShellSeeker]

I just powered through the last 4 episodes last night. I thoroughly enjoyed this. The thing I liked best about how this wrapped up is that all the women owned their own shit, in one way or another.  

Madeline owned up to her affair when she was trying to make Abigail understand that auctioning off her virginity was something she'd end up regretting. She'd been brushing it off, and compartmentalizing it, by trying to tell herself that since she'd ended it, it didn't really matter. But it did. 

I loved the scene where Jane told Celeste that it was Max who had been hurting Amabella, not Ziggy. There was no cliche of the mother refusing to believe that her child could be involved in something like that; rather, it was the moment where she finally, truly understood just how fucked up, toxic, and dangerous her relationship with Perry was, and that she'd been deluding herself into believing that the twins didn't know about the abuse. It was a continuation of the scene in the prior episode, when she was telling her therapist about how the power would shift between her and Perry -- she would have the advantage right after he'd abuse her, because he'd be remorseful and apologetic, but then, some time would pass, that memory would fade, and the advantage would shift back to him until he snapped and attacked her again. It was such a great moment, and she realized her part in the cycle and recognized that she needed to act for the safety of her children, and herself. (I'm not saying that it was Celeste's fault that Perry abused her, but she was in denial about how bad the situation had become) I've always thought Nicole Kidman was a good actress in general, but once in awhile she completely nails her role and knocks it out of the park. This was one of those.

I loved that Celeste told Renata about Max hurting Amabella, as soon as she saw her at the charity event, and that Renata immediately found Jane and apologized for treating her and Ziggy so badly. And when she apologized on behalf of her husband, Jane said, "Well, I did try to poke your eye out." 

And, I loved how Madeline was all in with Renata during that scene as well, when she said it takes a "big person" to admit that they were wrong. It was such an illustration of her personality. She's either in your corner, or she's not. You are either her friend or her enemy. She's either fiercely defending and trying to protect you, or trying to defend and protect someone else from you. No shades of gray for Madeline.

I'd like there to be a season 2, just to see this group work together again, but I don't know where they would take the story from here. 

[KaleyFirefly]

On 4/3/2017 at 8:40 AM, vixenbynight said:

From the moment that Celeste kept insisting that she had to leave "because they had a family", all of Perry's "control" was gone. There was no way that he wasn't going to react violently towards her that night.

that's why I don't understand why she still got into the car with him, why she was still going to that stupid party when her life was in danger. Realistically, at that point she would have grabbed her kids and gone to her apartment or to an abused women's shelter.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 4/4/2017 at 8:45 AM, QuinnM said:

Why did Bonnie kill Perry?

Jane - She described her rapist as being into erotic asphyxiation. 

Celeste - We see Perry with his hands around her throat during sex.

When Bonnie sees Perry and Celeste fighting she has a strong reaction.  She watches Celeste leave and make a phone call and then head to the terrace.  Bonnie continues to watch Perry and follows him when he leaves for the terrace.  She leaves while Nathan is singing his song to her.  She stands and watches the verbal confrontation and puts her hands to her throat.  The confrontation gets physical and she runs down and pushes him down the steps.  Later we see her on the beach, again putting her hands on her throat.

Perry raped Bonnie.

That's my theory.

If you're curious about this you can go to the book thread for more info on Bonnie.

Edited April 9, 2017 by KaleyFirefly
possible book spoiler

[CofCinci]

5 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

that's why I don't understand why she still got into the car with him, why she was still going to that stupid party when her life was in danger. Realistically, at that point she would have grabbed her kids and gone to her apartment or to an abused women's shelter.

When you are in an abusive relationship, you don't think rationally.  It is very difficult to leave - even when you have the fear he(or she) may kill you.  Realistically, she would have gone to the party.  Then, they'd come home and he'd beat the shit out of her. Afterwards, he'd apologize and say all the things he needs to say to continue the spinning wheel of intimate partner violence.

[CofCinci]

On 4/8/2017 at 1:45 PM, AAEBoiler said:

Also on a snarky note, were Nicole Kidman's acting cues for "how to channel being afraid" to think about Tom Cruise recruiting her into Scientology?

She dated Russell Crowe and he's pretty abusive. 

[chocolatine]

Maybe Celeste thought she'd be safer at the party than at home, because Perry had never abused her in public before.

[shelley1234]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Maybe Celeste thought she'd be safer at the party than at home, because Perry had never abused her in public before.

Exactly.   The safest place she could be once he knew that she was putting together a place and a plan to leave him was out in public.  She's be a sitting duck if they stayed home.  

[Mabinogia]

And her kids were home, and though she says she knows he would never do anything to hurt them, I'm pretty sure she wasn't willing to bet their lives on it. Get him to a public place, away from the boys then get the boys out of the house and hope you live long enough to join them. I think she made the right choice to go with him and hope he takes her to the event. Stay home and the kids might get front row seats to the beating this time.

[Eucrid]

On 09/04/2017 at 2:45 PM, KaleyFirefly said:

that's why I don't understand why she still got into the car with him, why she was still going to that stupid party when her life was in danger. Realistically, at that point she would have grabbed her kids and gone to her apartment or to an abused women's shelter.

Because he was about to fly off the handle and if she'd done that there was a genuine chance the kids could have been hurt.

I know she said he'd never do anything to hurt the kids but he was getting worse, threatened her life after she hit him in the balls for instance. More importantly though she had recognized he was hurting the boys indirectly. That broke her fantasy about him being a good Dad.

On 09/04/2017 at 8:04 PM, CofCinci said:

She dated Russell Crowe and he's pretty abusive. 

He punched a guy though right? I've never heard of him hitting women. To me thats not close to being the same thing. Maybe there is more I'm unaware of.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Eucrid

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

He punched a guy though right? I've never heard of him hitting women. To me thats not close to being the same thing. Maybe there is more I'm unaware of.

Russell Crowe has never been guilty of abusing women. I just remember him acting a fool at a hotel  years ago by throwing the phone at the staff, something like that. His excuse was that he was homesick and missed his wife, ugh. I was like, well take your ass back to Australia why don't you. But abuser of women? I've never heard that about him. I don't think I've ever heard rumors that he was difficult to work with even, I just heard about that one incident in the hotel years ago.

[shelley1234]

Russell Crowe has had a long history of being a total ass and violent, but almost always the violence is with other men.  

And because everything is on google....here is a website that talks about the timeline of Crowe's violent outbursts.  

http://www.revelist.com/celebrity/russell-crowe-assault-azealia-banks/5289

[Soobs]

On 4/6/2017 at 11:54 AM, Razzberry said:

I hear you, but this is a completely fictional Monterey in many ways, to better serve the story.   I've heard it described as a working class tourist town with fabulous views, and that seems pretty accurate.  It does seem a bit more conservative than, say, Santa Cruz, but any mayoral concern over fucking puppets would probably come from a desire to remain uncontroversial and tourist friendly.

You described it very accurately. I grew up there, which is really what drove me to watch this show. Even though they are both tourist towns, Monterey grew around commercial fishing and the military base and Santa Cruz around the university. Carmel and Pebble Beach are where the people on this show would live and hang out. The current mayor of Monterey was my fifth grade teacher and that scene cracked me up.

[Donna]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:11 PM, LucyHoneychrrch said:

Also, I'd previously read the book; but it's a mark of how amazing I found this series that I was genuinely, spine-chillingly terrified when Celeste and Perry left the house.

Here as well -- I KNEW how it was going to end, but I was so afraid of what Perry was going to do when he got to Celeste that it took me until Jane's flashbacks to remember that he was also her rapist. 

The domestic violence scenes were very true to life.  You never know what's going to set them off; it could be something most people would laugh at or it could be nothing.

[methodwriter85]

I wonder if they kept Ziggy's hair in a buzzcut because it kind of downplays his blond hair, as opposed to his half-brothers with their big mops of hair. I did like the difference- the twins were always dressed nicely with perfect hair, while Ziggy had his buzzcut and often ran around shirtless or in some tank top.

I spoiled myself before watching but man, the episode got tense once Perry knew.

[FozzyBear]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:39 PM, Auntie Anxiety said:

About the twins and Ziggy being around the same age, I figured that Celeste was pregnant already with twins and Perry wasn't having sex with her because she was higher risk, so he decided he was entitled to cheat. Raping Jane might have come about because he had to do something violent when he got rebuffed and Jane was a good replacement for Celeste at that point. We saw him play the victim time and again.

I thought a similar thing, but I thought it might have been tied to Celeste having a hard time getting pregnant. He's frustrated, insecure, doubting his manhood so he goes out, probably not intending to do anything, but the evening spirals and he rages like he does with Celeste, but can't right now because they're trying to have a baby and he takes out all of shame and anger on a random girl he probably didn't even think of as a real person, but some symbol of everything he thinks he's entitled to. Because he's a narcissist. And an asshole. And an abuser. Even though he feels bad about all of that and probably hates himself he is still those things.

[khyber]

Just watched  this  and the Perry/Celeste scenes just made me flash on O.J. and Nicole.

[Kerri Okie]

On 4/3/2017 at 9:40 AM, sasha206 said:

I think the only unrealistic part of the Perry/Jane scenario is that in the big world that it is, she would accidentally find her rapist.

She didn't accidentally find her rapist.  She came to town looking for her rapist.  It's why she learned how to shoot and kept a gun and started sleeping with it under her pillow.  It's why, whenever Ziggy asked why they had moved, she wouldn't give him a real reason, just a meaningless fake reason that he got to know so well he could repeat it verbatim, knowing it wasn't the truth.  Coming face to face with Perry when and where she did was unexpected, but since it's why she was there in the first place, it's not really so much of a coincidence as people seem to think. 

[sasha206]

8 hours ago, Kerri Okie said:

She didn't accidentally find her rapist.  She came to town looking for her rapist.  It's why she learned how to shoot and kept a gun and started sleeping with it under her pillow.  It's why, whenever Ziggy asked why they had moved, she wouldn't give him a real reason, just a meaningless fake reason that he got to know so well he could repeat it verbatim, knowing it wasn't the truth.  Coming face to face with Perry when and where she did was unexpected, but since it's why she was there in the first place, it's not really so much of a coincidence as people seem to think. 

Well, that makes it a bit more realistic.  :)  

[STOPSHOUTING]

9 hours ago, Kerri Okie said:

She didn't accidentally find her rapist.  She came to town looking for her rapist.  It's why she learned how to shoot and kept a gun and started sleeping with it under her pillow.  It's why, whenever Ziggy asked why they had moved, she wouldn't give him a real reason, just a meaningless fake reason that he got to know so well he could repeat it verbatim, knowing it wasn't the truth.  Coming face to face with Perry when and where she did was unexpected, but since it's why she was there in the first place, it's not really so much of a coincidence as people seem to think. 

This is true to the book but was never discussed, alluded to or even intended to be suggested in the mini-series, based on interviews with the creator David E Kelley. This is based, in part, on another book-only detail that has Jane talking about actively hunting for her rapist while Celeste keeps a secret that could help her find him, which Kelley said he thought "harmed the bonds of sisterhood," between the women. In essence, he traded the detail of Jane moving to the town to find her rapist/Ziggy's father for a closer relationship between Jane and Celeste, which doesn't really exist in the book. This challenges the logic of coincidence in terms of ID'ing Perry as Jane's assaulter AND Celeste's abusive husband, but also allows the actresses to interact far more, which was probably the correct trade-off given the star-power caliber Kelley was working with.

Renata also gets much more development/back story in the TV series vs the book which, of course, Laura Dern played the heck out of it.

Edited April 30, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[Kerri Okie]

1 minute ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

This is true to the book but was never discussed, alluded to or even intended in the mini series, based on interviews with the creator David E Kelley. This is based, in part, on another book-only detail that has Jane talking about actively hunting for her rapist while Celeste keeps a secret that could help her find him, which Kelley said he thought "harmed the bonds of sisterhood" between the women.

I have never read the book, nor have I read or watched interviews with DEK.  That she was there looking for him was the conclusion I drew based on the things mentioned above that I picked up on watching the show.  

[Guest]

On 4/29/2017 at 11:25 PM, Kerri Okie said:

She didn't accidentally find her rapist.  She came to town looking for her rapist.  It's why she learned how to shoot and kept a gun and started sleeping with it under her pillow.  It's why, whenever Ziggy asked why they had moved, she wouldn't give him a real reason, just a meaningless fake reason that he got to know so well he could repeat it verbatim, knowing it wasn't the truth.  Coming face to face with Perry when and where she did was unexpected, but since it's why she was there in the first place, it's not really so much of a coincidence as people seem to think. 

I think in the show she keeps a gun and keeps moving because she's afraid and restless and she's drawn to the sea.  Though it's hard to un-know the book info and there she did subconsciously pick that town due to something she saw in the hotel room she was raped in, which wasn't the same place where they all lived.  

[JBC344]

Actually Jane does quickly mention the fact that maybe she did pick Monterey because she thought she might actually run into him.  It in one of the café scenes after Jane confides in Maddie about the rape.  Now in the book it is actually a much more bigger plot point with more thought and assertion on Jane's part, in the show she sort of says it as unintentional or unconscious.  I actually disagree with David in that Jane and Celeste have a closer relationship than the book versions.  In fact I would say that Jane is more Maddie's friend than Celeste's, outside of that one scene we got of Jane talking to Celeste over face time.  Now of course we know that was ultimately so that Jane wouldn't "see or become aware" of Perry but this idea that Jane and Celeste were closer in the show than in the book just isn't true.

I think they could of achieved making them closer by keeping the Saxon Banks plot from the book and making Jane and Celeste bond over that considering the nuances. They could of had them meeting and conversing about Saxon in secret as a way to ensure that Jane was kept away from Perry.

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, JBC344 said:

Now of course we know that was ultimately so that Jane wouldn't "see or become aware" of Perry but this idea that Jane and Celeste were closer in the show than in the book just isn't true.

I really didn't think they were close at all in the show. More like friends because they are both friends with Maddie. I never got the impression they hung out without Maddie. So if that is what they were going for, they failed miserably IMO

[STOPSHOUTING]

On 5/4/2017 at 9:33 PM, JBC344 said:

Actually Jane does quickly mention the fact that maybe she did pick Monterey because she thought she might actually run into him.  It in one of the café scenes after Jane confides in Maddie about the rape. 

I don't believe she ever says that's why she moved to Monterey in the series. She says she never looked for "Saxon Banks," the name Perry gave her when he assaulted her, but that she thinks she'll someday run into him and recognize him by his smell. That's when Madeline quickly finds him and they make the road trip and discover he's not the guy. (And he's also not Perry's cousin, unlike the book's -- I would argue -- more tidy and satistfying explanation. Again, a plot point they said was dropped so that Celeste could be involved with Jane more closely, because she never has to recognize the name Jane gives them of her rapist as one of her in-laws, and then hide that fact from her until the story's climax.)

Again, agree or disagree about why Jane is in Monterey per the series, the creators explicitly say Jane didn't come there knowing/thinking Perry, a.k.a. her rapist/Ziggy's biological father, was in town, and I tend to take them at their word at what was intended.

[JBC344]

3 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

I don't believe she ever says that's why she moved to Monterey in the series. She says she never looked for "Saxon Banks," the name Perry gave her when he assaulted her, but that she thinks she'll someday run into him and recognize him by his smell. That's when Madeline quickly finds him and they make the road trip and discover he's not the guy. (And he's also not Perry's cousin, unlike the book's -- I would argue -- more tidy and satistfying explanation. Again, a plot point they said was dropped so that Celeste could be involved with Jane more closely, because she never has to recognize the name Jane gives them of her rapist as one of her in-laws, and then hide that fact from her until the story's climax.)

Again, agree or disagree about why Jane is in Monterey per the series, the creators explicitly say Jane didn't come there knowing/thinking Perry, a.k.a. her rapist/Ziggy's biological father, was in town, and I tend to take them at their word at what was intended.

Well to be fair the creators "intentions" are not always what is "perceived" by the viewers.  For example, there were many posters who were convinced that Adam Scott's Ed was a more sinister character based on his "looks" or interactions with Abigail.  Now we know that isn't true or the intentions of the creators but that is how it came off to a significant amount of people.

In terms of the example I gave about Jane.  When she makes that comment it is more of her soul searching and saying to Maddie "maybe I subconsciously picked Monterey because of the possibility of finding my rapist".  It wasn't something that is stated as gospel it was her ranting and explaining her anxiety about the situation to her friend who she just confided in.  I don't think that necessarily negates anything David has said about the character.  I just took it as a rant/slight nod to the book.  Just like when Maddie mentions Saxon Banks' name to Celeste.  She pauses and says "I think I've heard that name before" now obviously in the show Saxon isn't Perry's look a like cousin like the book, but the comment was a nice nod to the Celeste/Saxon plot of the book.

The creators also said that Celeste and Jane are closer in the series than the book.  That to me couldn't be the furthest from the truth.  They basically have a peripheral friendship to Maddie.  I think the creators may have intended that but it didn't come across onscreen.

Also the creators intentions may not always match up to an actor's choice in the scene.  It doesn't mean that either is wrong just that neither one is gospel.

[STOPSHOUTING]

19 hours ago, JBC344 said:

The creators also said that Celeste and Jane are closer in the series than the book.  That to me couldn't be the furthest from the truth.  They basically have a peripheral friendship to Maddie.  I think the creators may have intended that but it didn't come across onscreen.

By "closer" -- which was followed by an "actor's of this caliber" discussion, if I really correctly -- I think they mean sharing a lot more screen time than the in-book relationship would have allowed, not necessarily that the characters are emotionally more attuned to one another or extremely close confidantes.

As in the book, Madeline is still the primary connection between Jane and Celeste (that they know of anyway), but the three share more time together on screen than on the page, where it's more usually Madeline and Jane or Madeline and Celeste and most of the information about both women are passed via expositional conversations ABOUT them, versus WITH each other.

Edited May 7, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[AnotherMommy]

Wanted to share an interesting link that let's the show live on: 15 Life Lessons From Big Little Lies All Parents Need To Hear. 

[Superpole2000]

I liked this episode and the show as a whole. Seven episodes was the perfect length for this type of show, and I really hope we see an increase in this length of miniseries because it gives us a chance to experience characters and stories without filler. Movies often seem too short, and TV shows often seem like a struggle to fill time.

My two complaints:

1. The abuser of one woman is also the rapist of another woman. That was just incredibly implausible.
2. The show's overuse of cutaways to brief flashbacks and dream sequences. This became especially annoying to me when Jane's cutaways featured her pointing a gun. I felt that was a disservice to viewers as an inaccurate misdirection.

[Chaos Theory]

I just finished watching this and I am a BIG Nichole Kidman fan.  You can tell even playing an abused wife that Kidman is a happier freer person then she has been.  I guess being married to a supportive husband who loves and wants you to succeed makes al the difference.   Heh I guess dual meanings between Celeste and Nichole.  

 

As for the story in general I am not usually a fan of HBO but I thought this was exceptionally well done.  I loved how all the women were shades of imperfect.  The finale and twist worked for me.  Having Celestes husband be the rapist makes sense and fits with what we know of what happened.  My guess is he raped Jane around the time she was having her miscarriages which makes out twice as sad because him being there for her is part of the reason she had such trouble leaving.

The one thing that didn't really fit was Bonnie but apparently that worked better in the book.  Written language does some things better then visual especially when you want a shocking surprise at the end

i will let it go though because otherwise awesome show.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[JBC344]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 2:48 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I just finished watching this and I am a BIG Nichole Kidman fan.  You can tell even playing an abused wife that Kidman is a happier freer person then she has been.  I guess being married to a supportive husband who loves and wants you to succeed makes al the difference.   Heh I guess dual meanings between Celeste and Nichole.  

 

As for the story in general I am not usually a fan of HBO but I thought this was exceptionally well done.  I loved how all the women were shades of imperfect.  The finale and twist worked for me.  Having Celestes husband be the rapist makes sense and fits with what we know of what happened.  My guess is he raped Jane around the time she was having her miscarriages which makes out twice as sad because him being there for her is part of the reason she had such trouble leaving.

The one thing that didn't really fit was Bonnie but apparently that worked better in the book.  Written language does some things better then visual especially when you want a shocking surprise at the end

i will let it go though because otherwise awesome show.

I think what is interesting is that I read the book before the show so I knew the ending, but looking back I appreciate that they threw in some clues about Bonnie along the way.  They were very subtle but looking back deliberate.  When her and Ed were talking at her studio and she mentions "we all have a past" (some variation of that statement), also when Nathan and Abigail were fighting over the computer and Sky witnesses it.  Bonnie reaction to her daughter seeing something that can be interpreted as "violence".  Her desire to really "be there" for Abigail as a dedicated step-mother. 

[Snow Fairy]

I'm coming late to the party, and have read only 5 out of this 12 pages, so you maybe discussed all of this before, but here it goes...

I don't think the violence between Perry and Celeste began before children. I have a feeling that it happened later. He was there for her with all the IVF's and abortions, maybe there something started. I never thought the beating was the reason for the abortions, being in IVF myself - some times it is difficult, and you really don't know why this happens. And it's not uncommon.

 

Second thing - how could Celeste save herself by getting a new house, leaving kids in the same school, living in the same town? He could break in anytime, take the kids, something like that. In my country, women like that go to safe houses, locations unknown, so their spouses wouldn't find them. And every year we have cases od murder/suicide commited by the husband whose wife left/wanted to leave them

[peggy06]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:05 PM, Irlandesa said:

I loved the beach shots. I love that they all came together. I don't think this needs another season, though.

I just finished this. I guess I am dense, because I had no idea who was going to be killed - somehow I assumed one of the women. Very glad it was Perry instead. Is it certain that he was the rapist? That does seem a bit too pat. I thought maybe his violence was triggering Jane but not that he was the actual one who raped her.

Definitely agree this doesn't need another season. If it's going to be all about guilt, or the police trying to pin it on one of them, I don't know how interesting that would be. Think Bloodline. Sometimes it's best to leave things at a single season. It stands on its own, for sure.

[peggy06]

On 4/2/2017 at 11:48 PM, Blissfool said:

Renata was clearly My Fair Lady.

As was Bonnie.

[JBC344]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:28 PM, peggy06 said:

I just finished this. I guess I am dense, because I had no idea who was going to be killed - somehow I assumed one of the women. Very glad it was Perry instead. Is it certain that he was the rapist? That does seem a bit too pat. I thought maybe his violence was triggering Jane but not that he was the actual one who raped her.

Definitely agree this doesn't need another season. If it's going to be all about guilt, or the police trying to pin it on one of them, I don't know how interesting that would be. Think Bloodline. Sometimes it's best to leave things at a single season. It stands on its own, for sure.

Perry was definitely the rapist.  That is what triggered the attack at the end.  Perry recognized Jane recognizing him as her rapist.  He knew his secret was out then and Celeste would never come back.  I think he also thought Celeste knew before then maybe, you can see all of it running through his head before he went off. 

[NUguy514]

This series was incredible, the performances were phenomenal, and the unspoken understandings between all the women at the climax were everything.  I have nothing more to add that everyone in this thread hasn't already added more eloquently; it was a pleasure to read through this.

On 4/9/2017 at 0:04 PM, CofCinci said:

She dated Russell Crowe and he's pretty abusive. 

Kidman and Crowe have never dated, although the two have been good friends for a long time.  Maybe you were thinking of Meg Ryan?