S01.E18: Moonshadow

[sasha206]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:05 PM, Amethyst said:

He was pretty blithe about Rebecca being a SAHM and her dreams outside the home, but the problem is that they didn't do enough build-up for these problems with Jack.  They've spent most of the season showing him as a saintly father and husband, and in the last 3 episodes, try to force this "He's a budding alcoholic with jealousy issues!" stuff and it's not convincing.  As it is, the drinking problem was barely a blip on the radar.  Rebecca said he quit cold turkey, no meetings, no withdrawal, conveniently open and shut.  As for the jealousy, that's a pretty new development, too.  Not saying that Jack is immune to jealousy, but it would have been nice for them to plant some seeds about these flaws throughout the season instead of cramming them in at the end.

And the writers have never shied away when it comes to Rebecca's flaws.  Even now, she's the one asking Jack to move out of the house.  The writers did a poor job balancing out their personalities in the latter half of the season.

That's the problem I had with this.  It seems unusual to me that two people who are sooooooo in love in nearly every episode with the exception of when Rebecca was pregnant and bitchy (but hey, happy ending) suddenly have such a major fight that Rebecca's first thought is he needs to leave the house.  It would've been much more realistic to start showing more cracks in the system  in episodes leading up to this.  I mean, if you're married to Jesus Christ and he has one night of being off the wagon and acting stupidly because his wife is on tour with former boyfriend, do you really kick him out of the house?  

And to top it off, they make Jesus give the typical speech about what he loves which made me feel like I was watching the end of When Harry Met Sally, and she's still unbending?  

Unless he was a horrendous drunk before, it's hard to believe that one major argument = possible separation.  Most couples just are pissy for a couple of days without it being a "OMG, what do we tell the kids and we're going to fuck them up."  

I would've preferred the end of this season being where I thought Rebecca was going -- do you REALLY love me or are you just trying to correct your parent's shitty marriage and building an illusion of love that isn't there.  It would've been more  interesting for him to walk the fuck out the door with that question in his head versus, "I love your unsexy dance and it's so unsexy that its sexy" crap.

[dwarmed]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

ten hour days of back breaking construction work

I didn't realize sitting at a desk in a cubicle could be considered 'backbreaking'

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Do you mean 1970?

13 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

I think you meant 1970, but yeah, that was the year.  My brother was born in 1944 and kept flunking out of college, so he would be vulnerable, but was medically ineligible.  My parents lived in France in the late 40's and thereby knew a lot more about the Vietnam conflict than most Americans and felt it was a miserable, unwinnable morass, and I remember my mom saying she would drive my brother to Canada herself if necessary.  

Jeff, don't do math at 1:30 AM, mmkay?  LOL  Yes, 1970, d'oh!

 

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree.  Benefits not at all adequate.  I have Vietnam veterans in my family circle who were screwed in multiple ways, and exposed to Agent Orange in the bargain. 

Replying in "Social Issues:

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think this would make a lot of sense for her to do, and I'm not sure she hasn't brought it up. She can get a day job, since, as she said, the kids are old enough to not need her all the time, and sing with the band on the weekends, or just go to open mike nights. Singing is her passion, and she should do it if it makes her happy, but calling it a career is pretty ridiculous. How much can she be making, even touring with that band in random bars on the east coast? If she had a day job, then Jack wouldn't have to take so many hours, he could be home more often, and he could take on more parenting responsibility. It might not be a super exciting jobs, but lots of people take on boring or crappy jobs for their family, or to fund their passions in their off time. Jack has never said he's against her working (that I remember anyway), he just said he thinks her becoming a professional singer is a pipe dream. Which it is. Why hasn't this come up? Wouldn't it solve most of her problems? Her job could give her more purpose and a life outside the house, and she can still sing in her spare time, and see more of Jack, who would be less tired and stressed. I mean, this is the 90s, not the 50s. Rebecca going to work now that the kids are older shouldn't be such a huge deal. That's what my mom did, and it worked out really well.  

I meant to say this earlier on, but your post reminded me.

I've been to plenty of bars for my husband's gigs - and this was not your run of the mill bar. Which is to say, this was pretty high scale -  I've never been to a bar that had dressing rooms for their talent. So, if that's an intentional choice on the show's part, this would be a pretty solid well paying gig.

We've also only been booked in one "dive" - and boy, was it terrifying. Turned out it was a biker bar somehow tucked away in a fancy pants town. But in my experience, the bars that  pay for talent (and not just in drinks) aren't generally all that bad. Mileage may vary in different circuits/genres of music.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, Trooper York said:

Gabby Dawson levels of infamy.

Don't you dare invoke the name of She Who Must Not Be Angered.  This Is Us is still a workable show, even with its faults. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Dowel Jones

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

That's the problem I had with this.  It seems unusual to me that two people who are sooooooo in love in nearly every episode with the exception of when Rebecca was pregnant and bitchy (but hey, happy ending) suddenly have such a major fight that Rebecca's first thought is he needs to leave the house.  It would've been much more realistic to start showing more cracks in the system  in episodes leading up to this.  I mean, if you're married to Jesus Christ and he has one night of being off the wagon and acting stupidly because his wife is on tour with former boyfriend, do you really kick him out of the house?  

And to top it off, they make Jesus give the typical speech about what he loves which made me feel like I was watching the end of When Harry Met Sally, and she's still unbending?  

Unless he was a horrendous drunk before, it's hard to believe that one major argument = possible separation.  Most couples just are pissy for a couple of days without it being a "OMG, what do we tell the kids and we're going to fuck them up."  

THIS.  And to the best of my recollection, we weren't shown anything to indicate that Jack's drinking was a major problem before that night at the bar (at least not within the context of his family).  The writers have to give us something to hang our hats on, and I don't see where they've given us squat.  It seemed far too twee that Jack and Becs have a huge, blowout, screaming fight and in the next scene, Rebecca tells him to go live with Miguel, Jack is waxing poetic at how wonderful the children will come out of the tragedy of Jack moving out, and Rebecca cries pretty tears.

And was it just me...after the fight, Rebecca gets up in the morning and pauses by the top of the stairwell, where I remember the two of them spent some time cuddling after they'd brought the babies home.  My thought was - is she looking for him to be waiting in their cuddle spot?  And he's not there, so he's awful and therefore must move out?  These are the leaps my brain takes with this show, because it doesn't give me anything else but some very light character sketches and a big helping of melodramatic dramz.

Edited March 16, 2017 by laurakaye

[Trooper York]

You they really screwed up this moment.

Jack should have told Rebecca to move out and go to live with Miguel.

He might still be alive today. Just sayn'

[Casually Observant]

On 3/14/2017 at 8:29 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Aside from the Miguel thing because that still feels off. And I do adore Jack, I just feel like Rebecca gets so much hate for everything she does. Maybe it's a sexiest thing as it's bugging me so much for some reason.

My opinion:  Rebecca gets hate because of the way they write her character. She is always a sad-sack, always finding the misery about every situation. Rarely is she smiling and showing any happiness or gratitude, whereas Jack makes an effort to be full of hope and turn a miserable situation into fun when things go sideways.  He doesn't dwell on what he has sacrificed, but decides it is worth it and moves on with a renewed purpose.  Rebecca wallows in her 'sad life' with barely a show of affection to Jack or the kids.  She must have been 22 or so when she met Jack, and 8 years later had unprotected sex with Jack in a sport's bar bathroom and got pregnant.  It's all Jack's fault!!!  I can't believe they had her say that in a previous episode.

Will we learn what she did career-wise for 8 years until then? Maybe Jack is referencing that time frame.  Perhaps she should have tried something else like teaching or writing songs for other singers or something. Suddenly, at 45 or 46 she hopes that singing in small town dive bars will be the ticket? Now?  When she has sexually active teenagers that should be watched 24-7?  And still - a seriously obese daughter she hasn't helped?  Writers, writers. What are you thinking?

I am a mother of two and had to leave my career to care for our two children and we suffered enormously financially for it, but, we realized either I would be fulfilled and the children would be given short shrift or we would do with much less and embrace the joy of raising our children with care, love and nurturing.  I found joy in every moment I could even though it was pretty tough for a long time.   Kids are on their own now and doing well.  Glad we raised them as we did. Now, I need to make up for lost time so we have something when we retire...

[Casually Observant]

On 3/14/2017 at 8:50 PM, tribeca said:

I really can't stop thinking of Rebecca poor blind date and how rude she was to him.   She had to sing. 

Yes.  Here she is set up with a smart, good-looking, single, educated, financially successful young man who is taking her to dinner. He is telling her about his job that he loves and she is bored and uninterested. She made no effort, really. She could have said, "You know, I wonder if we could skip dinner? I have an opportunity to sing at a club. Would you come with me?"  Instead she bolts and leaves him sitting there.  What a shallow, selfish jerk she is.   We can't possibly like her. She is all kinds of self-serving, "But what about me??"  

Writers!  Do better! Gaaah.

[Granny58]

On 3/15/2017 at 11:40 PM, jhlipton said:

I was born Dec 1952.  The year I became eligible (1980) was the year they ended college deferments -- they need more meat for the sausage-grinder.  I lucked out by being 4-F as there was NO WAY I was going to Nam (and my parents -- including my Navy dad -- supported me).

1980 or 1970?

On 3/16/2017 at 8:04 AM, JudyObscure said:

As one of those same exact people I'm getting a little tired of this.  Just like being told  by others that I'm "judging," poor Rebecca.  We can say anything we like about Toby and his sex talk or Jack and his drunk driving and it's just our opinion, but if it's a critical opinion of Rebecca it's judging. and giving her a hard time.  Is she supposed to be exempt from all criticism just because she's a woman?  Just as she's not to be held to any responsibility at all in the awkward situation with her band mate?

That awful Jack is supposed to come home from ten hour days of back breaking construction work and spend the evening cooking meals, cleaning the bathrooms, and doing laundry till midnight, and he's supposed to love that because Rebecca's not fulfilled and can only get her singing groove on by lounge singing at night with her ex.  Not through the local orchestra choir or subjecting her church to weekly solos like all the frustrated singing stars I know.  If her daily  housework has been so awfully hard, how is it that when Jack's supposed to add it to his day, it's now nothing at all?  If she never got an award for what she does then when did Jack get an award for his work?   I've been both a SAHM and a working mom off and on for years at a time, depending on my husband's jobs.  I always liked the years as SAHM best because, with just a tiny bit of efficiency, most days I was able to keep a spotless house and put good meals on the table and still have the afternoons free for ballet classes, piano lessons, cut throat card games with the neighbor women, reading, politics and many other things.  At no point would I have expected my husband to lift a finger in the house work area at night, because I knew full well I was working four or five hours to his eight or nine.    I  agree that SAHM moms are not given enough credit, because they do have some really hard days when all the kids are sick and they sacrifice the perks of having other adults to talk to, money, promotions, and, for the lucky few, actually interesting work.  I still think it's best for the children to stay home if the family can afford it.    So I think what Rebecca has been doing is a good thing.  I just don't agree with her that Jack has ruined her life and he owes her this singing tour.

I love your entire post.  I also don't understand the sentiment I'm picking up that Rebecca gave up a singing career.  She made CHOICES.  Nobody forced her to do any of it.  

[sasha206]

1 hour ago, Casually Observant said:

My opinion:  Rebecca gets hate because of the way they write her character. She is always a sad-sack, always finding the misery about every situation. Rarely is she smiling and showing any happiness or gratitude, whereas Jack makes an effort to be full of hope and turn a miserable situation into fun when things go sideways.  He doesn't dwell on what he has sacrificed, but decides it is worth it and moves on with a renewed purpose.  Rebecca wallows in her 'sad life' with barely a show of affection to Jack or the kids.  She must have been 22 or so when she met Jack, and 8 years later had unprotected sex with Jack in a sport's bar bathroom and got pregnant.  It's all Jack's fault!!!  I can't believe they had her say that in a previous episode.

 

And the happiness we've seen here have is usually Jack-generated.  You know, because he did some great big gesture.  The rest of the time, she's a mere mortal -- obsessing over her kids like normal people do while he's always doing the "I got this" thing. Jack is being kicked out of the house and he's making eloquent speeches.   He won't go on golf weekends with his buddies because he wants to freeze time.  He is the moral compass for the children.  Etc., etc.  

The premise of the show is wonderful, but I almost feel like they need to do The Affair type of thing because the way they are telling the story seems like it is more of a one-sided perspective.  And of course, it seems off to me that the alcoholic who quit cold turkey is driven to drinking because his wife wants to have a singing hobby and the man in the band is someone she dated very briefly.  Seemingly if he was that weak, he might've touched a few drops of alcohol dealing with racism (or has Randall not ever suffered that?), his children Kevin and Randall having issues, and his daughter's weight issues.  The writers would've been able to sell this split better if Jack was portrayed as a multi-layered functioning alcoholic whose drinking was somewhat concealed to the family and then spiraled out of control. 

They aren't showing enough of the problems to make one blowout in a long marriage that has survived a stillborn and the challenges of three children be split-worthy.  

I mean hell, she was meaner to him when she was pregnant with the kids.

Edited March 16, 2017 by sasha206

[possibilities]

During the fight, Rebecca said she had no life, that the kids were older and didn't need her, and Jack would come home, tell her about his day, and then fall asleep. It's implied here that he didn't even want to hear about her day. She said the singing was finally her having something of her own-- to me this meant, not as support to her kids (who don't even need the support) or her husband (who doesn't even ask how her day was and tells her what he loves is how she saved him and is a mother). I also remember from the earlier episode when he was drinking and not coming home til he was about to fall on his face, that she told him the drinking was her line in the sand and he had to stop or the marriage was over.

I had assumed that her anger was because of the drunkenness-- he showed up at her gig drunk, and by the time she saw him had already gotten into a brawl. I can't really understand anyone NOT being angry about that.

She also has a well of frustration and upset over other things, but so does he. But she handled her stuff all along by staying sober and asking for what she wanted and trying to be an adult about it. She discussed it with him, and he agreed, she made the lists and prepped before going out of town, etc. He handled his frustrations and upsets by drinking, driving drunk, staying away from home and coming back late to talk at her and then fall asleep without even asking her how her day was, making huge irrevocable decisions without telling her, and then blowing up at her and at others in a public place.

What I see in this situation is that Jack was playing the martyr and trying to get credit for being a saint, but it's selfish and self-serving and a double standard. Behind her back, he complains to Miguel. Rebecca has only been shown to defend him to others. He never tells her how he got the money for the house, he never tells her he hates the higher paying job he took to pay for Randall's school, he never tells her he was drinking with a co-worker who has been making passes at him for a long time (or that she made another pass that very night), he never asks her to get a job so he can work less or lets her know he's jealous that she's pursuing the singing dream or that he had any other dreams of his own that he'd like to pursue.

I think these are the kinds of mistakes people make all the time, but I don't think that means they aren't mistakes.

Rebecca thinks he loves his job and stays out because he doesn't want to spend time with her or care about her daily life. AND that he also doesn't want her to have anything of her own to do. It's the "put her in a pumpkin shell" syndrome. To her, it's grossly unreasonable that she should stay home and do nothing when neither he nor the kids need her, or want her. Why can't she go and sing when the family has no use for her anyway? I mean, HE NEVER TOLD HER any of the stuff we know about his disappointments and sacrifices. He just tells her don't worry about it, I'll take care of it, etc. and then presents her with the house or whatever it is. And then he vetoes her doing anything herself-- even when she doesn't do it unilaterally like he does.

[Trooper York]

14 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Why can't she go and sing when the family has no use for her anyway?

I agree with this 1000%

Her family has no use for her. Ever wonder why?

[Kohola3]

Well, said, possibilities.  I can't add to that excellent post, you said it all!

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

1980 or 1970?

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Jeff, don't do math at 1:30 AM, mmkay?  LOL  Yes, 1970, d'oh!

[sasha206]

26 minutes ago, possibilities said:

During the fight, Rebecca said she had no life, that the kids were older and didn't need her, and Jack would come home, tell her about his day, and then fall asleep. It's implied here that he didn't even want to hear about her day. She said the singing was finally her having something of her own-- to me this meant, not as support to her kids (who don't even need the support) or her husband (who doesn't even ask how her day was and tells her what he loves is how she saved him and is a mother). I also remember from the earlier episode when he was drinking and not coming home til he was about to fall on his face, that she told him the drinking was her line in the sand and he had to stop or the marriage was over.

I had assumed that her anger was because of the drunkenness-- he showed up at her gig drunk, and by the time she saw him had already gotten into a brawl. I can't really understand anyone NOT being angry about that.

She also has a well of frustration and upset over other things, but so does he. But she handled her stuff all along by staying sober and asking for what she wanted and trying to be an adult about it. She discussed it with him, and he agreed, she made the lists and prepped before going out of town, etc. He handled his frustrations and upsets by drinking, driving drunk, staying away from home and coming back late to talk at her and then fall asleep without even asking her how her day was, making huge irrevocable decisions without telling her, and then blowing up at her and at others in a public place.

What I see in this situation is that Jack was playing the martyr and trying to get credit for being a saint, but it's selfish and self-serving and a double standard. Behind her back, he complains to Miguel. Rebecca has only been shown to defend him to others. He never tells her how he got the money for the house, he never tells her he hates the higher paying job he took to pay for Randall's school, he never tells her he was drinking with a co-worker who has been making passes at him for a long time (or that she made another pass that very night), he never asks her to get a job so he can work less or lets her know he's jealous that she's pursuing the singing dream or that he had any other dreams of his own that he'd like to pursue.

I think these are the kinds of mistakes people make all the time, but I don't think that means they aren't mistakes.

Rebecca thinks he loves his job and stays out because he doesn't want to spend time with her or care about her daily life. AND that he also doesn't want her to have anything of her own to do. It's the "put her in a pumpkin shell" syndrome. To her, it's grossly unreasonable that she should stay home and do nothing when neither he nor the kids need her, or want her. Why can't she go and sing when the family has no use for her anyway? I mean, HE NEVER TOLD HER any of the stuff we know about his disappointments and sacrifices. He just tells her don't worry about it, I'll take care of it, etc. and then presents her with the house or whatever it is. And then he vetoes her doing anything herself-- even when she doesn't do it unilaterally like he does.

This is an excellent post.  I would love to see this show written from that perspective on an upcoming season.  This show would be more interesting to me if the first season memories of Jack were provided through the lens only of the Big Three, particularly Kate who seems to have had issues with her mom that predated Jack's death and THIS is why he's painted as damn near perfection.  If season 2 would be through the perspective or Rebecca or Miguel that would be able to better see his flaws, it would be much more interesting.  

There's enough material to show Jack in a less than flattering light.  I mean, Rebecca -- did she ever really have time to mourn the loss of her bio child?  Did Jack essentially guilt her into this perfect miracle replacement baby left at the station?  She struggled in attaching to him at first while Jack just sailed through it all.  She clearly loves Randall, but other than big gestures of love, did he really ever take her feelings into consideration?  Did his impulsive idealism throughout their marriage cause her much resentment that we aren't currently seeing?  Did she feel like she could never open up to him about her discovery of Randall's dad because of his idealism and "everything will be okay" syndrome?  And that burden was so heavy for her to carry?

It would make more sense to see episodes of Rebecca's sadness, his disregard of it and his thinking romantic gestures cure it all and how that affected her throughout her life with him.  

[ProudMary]

59 minutes ago, possibilities said:

 I also remember from the earlier episode when he was drinking and not coming home til he was about to fall on his face, that she told him the drinking was her line in the sand and he had to stop or the marriage was over.

I had assumed that her anger was because of the drunkenness-- he showed up at her gig drunk, and by the time she saw him had already gotten into a brawl. I can't really understand anyone NOT being angry about that.

This is such a good point, it deserves to be highlighted.

[HeyThere83]

2 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

 When she has sexually active teenagers that should be watched 24-7?  And still - a seriously obese daughter she hasn't helped?  Writers, writers. What are you thinking?

 

I don't think teenagers can be (or should be, really) watched 24/7. All you can do is give them the information they should know about that topic and hope they don't do anything stupid. They are going to make their own choices. Same for Kate and the obesity, Kevin and all of his whatever issues, etc.

[Pallas]

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Our oldest was born with significant special needs.  Both Mr. CRS and I took family leave act, bur I needed to go back earlier to finish up so that I could stay home with him permanently.  It turned out to be a blessing because those few weeks he totally understood what stay-at-home parenting entails.  He can still remember counting down the minutes of the last hour before I got home and the disappointment when I would call that I had to stay later.  I know what it is like to work all day and come home to a husband who hasn't had much adult attention and needs a break from laundry and cleaning.  Sixteen years later I think we still get each other's perspectives.  \

I just love that story, and how you told it.  

[Crs97]

Thanks, Pallas!

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Trooper York said:

You they really screwed up this moment.

Jack should have told Rebecca to move out and go to live with Miguel.

He might still be alive today. Just sayn'

Or Rebecca could have let him get in the car and then call the police, have him arrested for DUI and sue for full custody of the children with limited visitation rights for Jack.

BUT, Rebecca's not an asshole.  So she takes care of her drunken husband and makes sure that not only HE got home safe but that he didn't kill anyone else.  Then after a horrible fight where they both behaved badly, she asked for some space.  Since he was the one who showed up drunk at her work, hit a guy, and instigated the argument --- I'm not sure what she did that gets her kicked out of the house.  He AGREED to her going on the tour.  She drove him home.  It's he who had the public intoxication, drunk driving, and bar fight.  

Rebecca is still working for her family but she's realized that they are going through the motions as a couple.  I don't like that she asked him to sleep elsewhere but certainly, at the moment of the fight, he was one the who brought the issues to a head.  

[theatremouse]

8 hours ago, kili said:

Rebecca is delusional about the success of her pre-children musical career. Singing at an open mic is not a career. It's an open mic. Even that Froggies singing wasn't bringing in sufficient money to constitute success. She thinks that her family kept her from being a musical star, but 7 years of trying between "Moonshadow" and Froggies does not seem to have made much progress.

I'm not saying she had anything resembling a music career pre-kids, but this episode didn't confirm or deny that notion. All we saw here was that she was singing at open mics when she met Jack. I don't think we know, from this episode or the others, if her attempt at a music career went any farther than open mics or not at any point in the subsequent 7 years. We also don't yet know if she might've been on a path seeming like it might be more successful before she was 22. If she dated Ben "for two months when she was 19" and was also in a band with him then, maybe that band seemed like it might have seemed like it might go somewhere not rock-star level, but possibly "make a living" level. As far as I recall, what we know is she was doing open mics when she was 22. Her use of the phrase "career" in regard to what she was doing during the kids' teen years was  definitely preposterous, but it was also not smart of Jack to straight up say it.

I wasn't digging the fight scene. Yeah sure they yelled, they said harsh things, it was a fight. It didn't really pack any emotional substance for me though. I thought it was fairly straightforward and predictable. Who's Afriad of Virginia Woolf it was not.

Meanwhile, I think Jack's a horrible person. I do not forgive drunk driving. Sure he didn't kill anyone or himself this time, but he's still horrible. He was not only driving while drunk; he was literally drinking and driving. He's an asshole.

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, laurakaye said:

 My thought was - is she looking for him to be waiting in their cuddle spot?  And he's not there, so he's awful and therefore must move out?

According to an interview with Mandy Moore, that's exactly what happened.

[OtterMommy]

10 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

I wasn't digging the fight scene. Yeah sure they yelled, they said harsh things, it was a fight. It didn't really pack any emotional substance for me though. I thought it was fairly straightforward and predictable. Who's Afriad of Virginia Woolf it was not.

My thoughts exactly.  It was a very realistic fight--one that I've had myself.  It is also one I've already seen more times than I can count.  "That fight" only works from an entertainment standpoint for me if something surprising happens....if something all of a sudden doesn't go as it always had every other time I've seen that fight.  That did not happen here, which was a letdown for me.

[PepSinger]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:29 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Aside from the Miguel thing because that still feels off. And I do adore Jack, I just feel like Rebecca gets so much hate for everything she does. Maybe it's a sexiest thing as it's bugging me so much for some reason.

Thank you for being the one to say it. A lot of this reeks of sexism and misogyny, and it's really unfortunate. 

I, for the life of me, cannot understand why a 40-something year old woman who has 3 teenagers and a working husband cannot go on a two week tour. The hell? If I thought I couldn't leave my family for that long, then I would begin to wonder what the hell I did while raising them. They are perfectly capable people who can clean, cook, work, and go to school.

EDIT: I also wonder if this is coming from a school of thought that singing isn't really a career. It's something "frivolous." Art is important. A creative person cannot stop being creative. Would the reaction be different if Rebecca were an ad executive who needed to travel? Cause that's a "real" career? Hm.

On 3/16/2017 at 7:32 PM, theatremouse said:

Meanwhile, I think Jack's a horrible person. I do not forgive drunk driving. Sure he didn't kill anyone or himself this time, but he's still horrible. He was not only driving while drunk; he was literally drinking and driving. He's an asshole.

How this is not a bigger deal to people is beyond me. He could have *killed* someone, including himself! But Rebecca's the one getting the most heat? Singing doesn't kill people; drunk driving kills people.

Edited March 17, 2017 by PepSinger

[jhlipton]

48 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Who's Afriad of Virginia Woolf it was not.

Thank goodness for that.  Great movie, but yeeesh!!!

 

15 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

Singing doesn't kill people; drunk driving kills people.

You haven't heard me sing!!!  LOL

[Granny58]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

What I see in this situation is that Jack was playing the martyr and trying to get credit for being a saint, but it's selfish and self-serving and a double standard. Behind her back, he complains to Miguel. Rebecca has only been shown to defend him to others. He never tells her how he got the money for the house, he never tells her he hates the higher paying job he took to pay for Randall's school, he never tells her he was drinking with a co-worker who has been making passes at him for a long time (or that she made another pass that very night), he never asks her to get a job so he can work less or lets her know he's jealous that she's pursuing the singing dream or that he had any other dreams of his own that he'd like to pursue.

I like this idea and I'm going to watch with this in mind.  I could use a different perspective on her because right now she bugs the hell out of me.  

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, PepSinger said:

A creative person cannot stop being creative.

Who is trying to stop her from being creative? The kids have been in school for 10 years at that point; there are many ways she could have been creative in the hours that they're at school, not to mention a myriad of creative activities she could have done with the kids. The things that Jack had a problem with was the scheduling - when he was working during the day and she was singing at night, they did't get much quality family/couple time - and going on tour with an ex who still has the hots for her.

I have a really hard time seeing Rebecca as a feminist icon, throwing off the shackles of the patriarchy. To me, she's just spoiled and entitled. Has she ever had to support herself or anyone else financially? Based on what she told her girlfriends, all she was doing in her early 20s was singing at open mic nights and sending her demo to labels. She still didn't seem to be doing anything else eight years later when she and Jack decided to get pregnant. When she wanted to send Randall to private school, did it even occur to her to take a part-time job to help pay for his tuition? No, she took the problem to Jack, he said he'd "make it work" and she didn't question it because she was off the hook. Jack made many sacrifices over the years to provide for the family that she just took for granted, but the minute he objected to her going on tour, she got really ugly with him, telling him he was "holding her back" and what not. She tried unsuccessfully for at least eight years to make it in the music industry before she had kids, but it never seemed to occur to her that the reason for that could be insufficient talent or stage presence on her part. Not when she could conveniently blame Jack.

That's not to say that I'm on the "Jack is a saint" train. He's made terrible choices both by drinking and driving in the 90s flashback as well as the poker game and robbery plot in the 70s flashbacks. I've had issues with his impulsiveness, making unilateral decisions about housing, and pushing an adoption on Rebecca when she was at her most vulnerable. But I can't blame him for Rebecca being "unfulfilled". That's completely on her.

Edited March 17, 2017 by chocolatine

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Who is trying to stop her from being creative? The kids have been in school for 10 years at that point; there are many ways she could have been creative in the hours that they're at school, not to mention a myriad of creative activities she could have done with the kids. The things that Jack had a problem with was the scheduling - when he was working during the day and she was singing at night, they did't get much quality family/couple time - and going on tour with an ex who still has the hots for her.

Who? His name is Jack. Also, the kids were younger in those 10 years you mentioned, during the most crucial point of parenting. Why does she have to be creative in the way you think she should be? And it's her fault that her ex still has the hots for her? As long as he wasn't acting on his feelings, which he didn't until their first gig on the tour, she had every right to continue singing with the group. Also, were we ever given any indication as to what the rehearsal schedule was? I highly doubt they were rehearsing 5 nights a week, plus weekends. Jack could shove it regarding his issue with the "scheduling."

Quote

I have a really hard time seeing Rebecca as a feminist icon, throwing off the shackles of the patriarchy.

Who is saying that Rebecca is a feminist icon? Who? Rebecca has made sacrifices as well as Jack. I am not going to blame her for wanting to start her singing career again when her family seems to be okay. Also, Jack's "sacrifices" come a lot from him unilaterally making all of the decisions instead of talking about it with Rebecca first.

Edited March 17, 2017 by PepSinger

[breezy424]

OK.  The draft ended in 1973.  IIRC, Nixon ended student deferments in 1971.  And crap, I can't even remember why was this part of the discussion?  But in any case, Rebecca was about 46 years old when she decided to go on tour (given she had the kids in 1980 and the sticker date on the car).  

I guess what bothers me with Rebecca's argument is that she feels her children (because they are teenagers) don't need her anymore.  They do.  They still need her support and and being there for them.  Crap.  Raising kids is the most important thing you can do in life.  I hate when it's diminished.  And she did do that in their 'final' argument.  At least IMO.  'She' could have done things for herself like other posters have suggested over the years if she wanted to.

Jack didn't have a problem with Rebecca singing a few nights a week with her old 'band'.  She wanted to go on the tour.  The problem with this is from the writers.  The length of this tour was all over the place.  The most recent episode, it was decided to be two weeks.  Pick a lane when deciding this.  Rebecca doesn't appreciate the sacrifices that Jack has made.  She never recognizes it.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  She had no problem with forcing Jack into being responsible for Randall going to private school.  She expected it.

She also never told Jack about her relationship with Ben.

I don't see that Rebecca is being blamed because 'she' is a woman.  Rebecca doesn't see the big picture of it all.  And she did 'expect' Jack to move out.  There is a double standard going on her part.  I see marriage as a corporation of sorts.  It's not about 'money' but she did make an assumption when she told Jack 'he' has to move out.  So what does that say about 'women'?  Interesting debate.

Now, I don't think Jack is a saint.  The drinking and driving is a big deal.  Way big deal.  And yeah, he shouldn't have assumed that Rebecca did anything wrong with Ben. 

In the end, they're both wrong and I just don't understand, from what we've been given, that this all led to Jack being told to leave. 

[PepSinger]

4 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I guess what bothers me with Rebecca's argument is that she feels her children (because they are teenagers) don't need her anymore.  They do.  They still need her support and and being there for them.  Crap.  Raising kids is the most important thing you can do in life.  I hate when it's diminished. 

The tour was two weeks. Two weeks. I think three teenagers can get along for two weeks without "support."

[HeyThere83]

4 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

 I guess what bothers me with Rebecca's argument is that she feels her children (because they are teenagers) don't need her anymore.  They do.  They still need her support and and being there for them.  Crap.  Raising kids is the most important thing you can do in life.  I hate when it's diminished.  And she did do that in their 'final' argument.  At least IMO.  'She' could have done things for herself like other posters have suggested over the years if she wanted to.

 

There's also this weird expectation that when you have kids you can never ever take a moment for yourself when possible. And as teenagers they need to be able to function without her holding their hands every single minute of the day. She's not going to be following them into the bedroom of whatever guy or girl they are with, or hiding in bushes with binoculars to see if they are gonna have sex, or show up at every practice, or every party they attend. And if they need to talk and talking to dad just won't cut it they can use the phone.

[xtwheeler]

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

When I was 10, I was responsible for the death of another 10 year old girl.  Because I turned down plans to go to a pizza place which put someone at the wrong place at the wrong time.  I rationally know that I did not kill her, but I feel guilty.  I'm not going to say I think about it every day, because I don't.  But, she was just a random girl, an acquaintance, a friend of a friend.  I have also never talked about it with anyone because her death is not about me.  Even at 10 I knew that.  But, I don't think you get to say she is "too damn old" to be hung up on guilt.

I'm sorry you went through that and are living with that. What you are expressing, though, is EXACTLY what my frustration with Kate is. You have expressed that you were a child, and that you rationally know that OF COURSE it was not your fault and you are not responsible, and that her death is *not about you.*  Kate, on the other hand, has shown that in 20 years, she has made no progress toward recognizing what you knew at 10 -- she still claims 100% responsibility for her father's death. She turned Russell's loss of a second father into an occasion where he had to comfort her in her distress over her erroneous belief it was *her* fault he was going through this experience for a second time.  The perspective you describe, wherein you acknowledge any belief you are responsible is irrational and the situation is not about you is precisely what I find lacking in Kate having made no progress in that regard in 20+ years. I'm sorry if that wasn't expressed clearly in my original post. Emotions are emotions. You feel what you feel.  I never said she was "too damn old to be hung up on guilt" simply that 20 years is a long time to have made zero progress in processing an emotionally distressing event that has crippled her entire life--and one where the logical and rational fallacy is abundantly evident, the recognition of which is something that is usually the first step in grief counseling.  I am generally of the opinion that you don't really get an infinite amount of time to be debilitated by something like that while simultaneously refusing to deal with it, which is what it appears Kate has done (to me). Anyway, YMMV and I'm sorry if the way I expressed it hurt you.

[possibilities]

She said she would call them twice a day. How many teens want, let alone need, more than that during a 2 week period when their father is also around?

Jack didn't tell Rebecca he didn't want her to go until AFTER he had said it was fine-- he started objecting the day she was leaving. That's waaaaaay too late and completely unfair.

Also, I don't recall Rebecca demanding that Jack pay for Randall's private school.

Edited March 17, 2017 by possibilities

[chocolatine]

26 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

Who? His name is Jack.

Nope, he's literally never said that he doesn't want her to be creative. His objections, whether or not you think they're valid, have been for other reasons. And he did support her singing locally, even though he wasn't happy that they weren't spending much time together (as he told Miguel and Shelly, "if I want to see my wife, I have to go to one of her gigs").

Quote

Also, the kids were younger in those 10 years you mentioned, during the most crucial point of parenting.

But they're in school several hours a day and Jack never asked her to get a job. She could have done whatever she wanted during that time.

Quote

Why does she have to be creative in the way you think she should be?

I never prescribed any particular way for her to be creative. I just pointed out that she's had plenty of time to herself in the past ten years during which she could have pursued any number of creative projects.

Like you said, truly creative people won't be stopped from being creative. They'll find a way. People with full-time jobs and families have written books, one page at a time, during their commutes. Those who don't have the talent, imagination, and grit will always find an exuse.

[WhosThatGirl]

26 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

There's also this weird expectation that when you have kids you can never ever take a moment for yourself when possible. And as teenagers they need to be able to function without her holding their hands every single minute of the day. She's not going to be following them into the bedroom of whatever guy or girl they are with, or hiding in bushes with binoculars to see if they are gonna have sex, or show up at every practice, or every party they attend. And if they need to talk and talking to dad just won't cut it they can use the phone.

This! Rebecca waited quite a long time to even resurface back into her love of singing, probably because she thought she couldn't leave the kids but they are teenagers now and this is when they can make their own meals and probably don't even eat together much anymore. The boys have their own thing and Kate probably does too. Rebecca was even making lists for Jack and the kids to follow. She wasn't leaving them in a lurch or without a plan. 

[pennben]

I'm old, but I'm not so old that I don't remember how much I anticipated when my SAHM would be gone for a few days and dad would be in charge.  Oh my, did we look forward to eating out all the time and a looser interpretation of all rules around the house (despite the lists):)  And, if my dad was being honest, he probably liked kicking back a little more when she wasn't around enforcing the routine and rules.  Then, of course, I got much older and realized how hard my mom's job was as the one who made the house run and enforce the rules and how quickly things would fall apart and not be so much fun if dad was always 'in charge'.

There is no way the big three were anything other than "Follow your dreams Mom!!! You go for it, we'll miss you horribly (ahem), but we'll be fine! You just think about you!"  And if Jack didn't have such a stick up his ass about all of this would have had fun being the 'fun' dad for the kids for two weeks (and happily turned the reins right back over to mom at the end with a reminder that he didn't have it all that bad not being there all the time)!

Edited March 17, 2017 by pennben

[SlackerInc]

I've only made it through two pages of the thread so far, but I wanted to get in a comment before I have a bazillion quotes to respond to.

I liked this episode more than many seem to (Dan Fienberg of the Hollywood Reporter called it the worst episode of the season, which seems way off to me).  I would call it one of the "average good ones", way better than some of the rough midseason eps.

In particular, I felt a lot of emotional truth in the intense fight they had.  It reminded me of the big blowout in Richard Linklater's Before Midnight.  Unlike many, I don't see Rebecca as the "bad one" and Jack as the "good one".  They both had good and bad points--very realistic.  However, it bugs me that it's always assumed the husband has to move out, especially with the kids as old as they are.  I think whichever spouse is insistent on their separating should be the one to go stay somewhere else.  That was Rebecca in this case, so she should have gone to stay with someone.

The main thing that I disliked in the episode was the poker scenes.  It's very poor form to walk away right after your first hand when you won big.  Especially when you took a huge pot from the host!  And also--although this is pretty much a given in almost any portrayal of poker--to call and then raise. That's a string bet: not allowed. He also "splashed the pot" by throwing his cash on top of everyone else's; and why aren't they playing with chips anyway? Oh well, at least they didn't pull the move of making it appear one player could automatically win a pot by having more behind than his opponent.

On 3/14/2017 at 9:37 PM, Autumn said:

I think the writers are going to regret setting up Jack's death as some major mystery  It works in the short term but it is not a good long term plan.  They can either drag out the reveal until people get angry and frustrated enough to stop watching or they can reveal it and leave some people feeling like they lost the thing that was compelling about the show.

Agreed.  It's a family drama called "This is Us", not "The Mystery of Jack's Death".  It was a smashing success in the first few eps,  before they even revealed he had died, so I don't get it.

On 3/14/2017 at 10:18 PM, OptimisticCynic said:

Did Jack, during their argument, say she was 40? That's a big continuity error. She had the kids when she was 30, making her 45/46. I hate when shows can't get simple details right. I get neither of them look their ages (46 and 52), but they're the ages  they are supposed to be. 

Yeah, I think that was purposeful, to kind of cover for the fact that she doesn't look nearly old enough in those scenes.  She apparently did all her aging between 1996 and 2016, LOL.

[kili]

Quote

Jack didn't tell Rebecca he didn't want her to go until AFTER he had said it was fine-- he started objecting the day she was leaving. That's waaaaaay too late and completely unfair.

Rebecca chose to selectively give Jack information. She should have at least told her ex to keep their past relationship (and their discussion about marriage) a secret if she didn't want it to come out at an inopportune time. It's like Chandler and Joey said - you have to think about the trail. 

"Moonshadow" was an interesting choice for the song for Rebecca to sing and the title of the episode. It is basically a song about optimism. Despite all the troubles the songwriter (Cat Stevens) encounters, he just deals with it (the lyrics mention losing everything from hands to eyes and cheerfully conclude "no problem"). 1972 Jack is focusing on the bad things in his life, ignoring the good things and making bad choices. The Jack we generally see (in other episodes) is all about optimism. 1996 Jack is back to wallowing in despair. Meanwhile, Rebecca is almost always wallowing in despair, but she dials it up to 11 during her 1996 Career Revival Period. Apparently, she gets no joy from life and is a ghost.

Fun Fact: Mandy Moore actually did a cover of "Moonshadow" back on her 2003 album.

[SlackerInc]

Wait, those earliest flashbacks were from 1972?  How do you know?  I thought they were more like '76.

[Crs97]

Quote

And he did support her singing locally, even though he wasn't happy that they weren't spending much time together

And yet on the nights she wasn't singing, he showed her how much he wanted to spend time with her by coming home around 8 and passing out by 10.

Quote

There's also this weird expectation that when you have kids you can never ever take a moment for yourself when possible.

Once I took our third to baseball practice and had a book in my purse.  I watched him field for thirty minutes.  I pulled the book out during batting practice.  When it was his turn he would call to me and I would watch him swing and yell encouragement.  Several moms specifically mentioned, with a touch of envy, how amazed they were that I was so brazen about taking a moment for myself.  I guess I was supposed to watch him sit on a bench.  Just like I guess Rebecca is supposed to sing to the lunch crowd.  Any 9-3 singing gigs in the Pittsburgh area?

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

Wait, those earliest flashbacks were from 1972?  How do you know?  I thought they were more like '76.

I think somebody upthread mentioned noticing the date on the wedding invitation on Rebecca's coffee table. 

[sasha206]

10 hours ago, PepSinger said:

How this is not a bigger deal to people is beyond me. He could have *killed* someone, including himself! But Rebecca's the one getting the most heat? Singing doesn't kill people; drunk driving kills people.

Probably because Rebecca's selfishness forced him to drink! :)

And probably because the show still wants to make Jack be the romantic dreamboat who just loves his family, so, so much.  He was drinking and driving but it was because of one big romantic gesture doncha know!

[SlackerInc]

Finished the thread!

On 3/15/2017 at 7:33 AM, JudyObscure said:

So Rebecca, you would have Celine Dion's career if only people didn't keep standing in your way.  Your friends were right.  I remember my son getting the, "Only one baseball player in 10,000 makes it to the major leagues," speech from his grandfather when he was 18.

It's true--and if one of my kids was planning on pursuing one of these "1 in 10,000" type deals as a career, I'd be very concerned myself.  But it's kind of a paradox, because all of us here are presumably glad there are people who ignore this commonsense advice and pursue show biz careers anyway, otherwise we'd have no TV to watch!

On 3/15/2017 at 8:16 AM, llewis823 said:

That being said, I thought the episode itself - had it been one other than the season finale - was very well done. I thought the argument/fight was very realistic. I could see both sides. 

Kate singing? Her character is just too all over the place. 

She really is.  How many plots has she had now?  Sheesh.

I agree with you about the episode, except that I now realize I don't have special expectations for season finales (series finales are another matter).  So for it to just be a solidly good episode was fine.

On 3/15/2017 at 9:26 AM, ShadowFacts said:

He was 28, not a kid, and I found it a little hard to swallow that he was willing to pull off a robbery of a mafia-connected business. 

 

On 3/15/2017 at 0:47 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

Finally, robbing a pub? Seriously? We have never seen anything from Jack that would indicate that he would commit robbery.

I could have quoted many more posts that talked about Jack planning to commit "robbery" or that he was going to "rob" the place.  This is a pet peeve, as I mentioned in another thread.  Dictionary.com defines "robbery" as "the felonious taking of the property of another from his or her person or in his or her immediate presence, against his or her will, by violence or intimidation."  Jack's plan did not involve violence or intimidation, so it was theft rather than robbery.  Still a crime, but not a violent crime--which makes a difference morally as well as legally (a lot less prison time for a conviction of theft).

On 3/15/2017 at 2:50 PM, Granny58 said:

Oh, but I don't give Jack a pass for the aborted theft.

Unless I missed something, this was the only post in the thread to use the correct word!  Kudos.

On 3/15/2017 at 11:52 PM, DebbieM4 said:

I just see no reason why she couldn't take the stage that one last time.  It's not as though she would be working alone with him in a conference room or something, in which case I would absolutely say she should leave immediately.

But neither would she be working with him in a conference room with other people, where the job involves sitting there and sort of going through figures or something.  She would be expected to go up and croon love songs at each other, as we saw previously.  That could be mighty uncomfortable after an encounter like this.

11 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I, for the life of me, cannot understand why a 40-something year old woman who has 3 teenagers and a working husband cannot go on a two week tour. The hell? If I thought I couldn't leave my family for that long, then I would begin to wonder what the hell I did while raising them. They are perfectly capable people who can clean, cook, work, and go to school.

That's a reasonable argument if Rebecca will be bringing in a significant income over those two weeks.  But if not, the question that was asked weeks ago still is relevant: how would this be any more justifiable than if Jack took a two week unpaid vacation to go on a fishing trip with Miguel?  If her unpaid work around the home is so trifling as to be completely unnecessary, how is she currently doing her part for the family?

Edited March 17, 2017 by SlackerInc

[sasha206]

35 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

But neither would she be working with him in a conference room with other people, where the job involves sitting there and sort of going through figures or something.  She would be expected to go up and croon love songs at each other, as we saw previously.  That could be mighty uncomfortable after an encounter like this.

That's a reasonable argument if Rebecca will be bringing in a significant income over those two weeks.  But if not, the question that was asked weeks ago still is relevant: how would this be any more justifiable than if Jack took a two week unpaid vacation to go on a fishing trip with Miguel?  If her unpaid work around the home is so trifling as to be completely unnecessary, how is she currently doing her part for the family?

I completely agree with this.

I personally don't find Jack's annoyance over her 2 week tour something terrible.  This "tour" seems to be more of a great hobby, not a money maker.  And if the tour goes well, isn't she invested into a band that will need her?  What happens then? Does she tour much more without bringing in a real income?  If she loves singing, can't she do it local?  Give singing lessons?  And it seems like he was annoyed but okay with it until he sensed an attraction with her former boyfriend.

I'm sure most women wouldn't be too happy if their husband was on a business trip with the secretary he dated eons ago who he might appear to be attracted to still but deal with it because it's his job, it's significant income, and it's not really a choice for the man.  

My biggest problem with the show is that they've portrayed him as the most caring, the most giving, the most gentle and loving problem solver husband and father ever but within a couple of episodes, he's supposed to be viewed as a controlling, jealous drunk so they invent this tour to show there was strife and unhappiness in this otherwise near perfect relationship.  And still, his biggest fault is loving her too much apparently which is why he starts drinking again.  Then his controlling jerk status changes overnight and he's talking about how he loves her unsexy dance, etc., etc.  

This show could've done so much more with them BOTH being flawed humans who dealt with the traumatic loss of an infant and dealt with the struggles of raising an unconventional family.  Unless this show's twist is the memories are being shown through one perspective only, and that perspective is through the lens of person dead now = perfect human, it's just so unrealistic and schmaltzy.

Edited March 17, 2017 by sasha206

[llewis823]

6 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Agreed.  It's a family drama called "This is Us", not "The Mystery of Jack's Death".  It was a smashing success in the first few eps,  before they even revealed he had died, so I don't get it.

I honestly think the fans made it about the mystery of Jack's death. It became the most talked-about aspect of the show as soon as we found out he was dead in present-day This-is-Us-Land. Once the fans started talking about it in such depth and with such obsession, then I think the show started targeting that as their teaser, their selling point, etc.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

I honestly think the fans made it about the mystery of Jack's death. It became the most talked-about aspect of the show as soon as we found out he was dead in present-day This-is-Us-Land. Once the fans started talking about it in such depth and with such obsession, then I think the show started targeting that as their teaser, their selling point, etc.

And this is why I think TV shows should shoot the entire season before airing. Don't let the fans influence in any way.

[qtpye]

17 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Jack's jealously came from his belief that Rebecca "saved" him.  He was going to steal money out of the cash register, but when he saw Rebecca, he forgot all about that.  So Jack has always had this feeling about Rebecca, she's not just a woman, she's the woman who saved him from a life of crime.  Someone was right here when they said Jack has a Madonna complex when it comes to Rebecca; and no woman can be the Madonna...except Madonna.

One of the reasons Jack is uncomfortable with her singing, even before he knew about the skeevy ex is that Jack fell madly in love with her, just by glancing up at her on stage.

There was a horrible episode of the Office where Jim is shocked that every man in the world does not find Pam awesome.  There was a character that had dated Pam briefly, but broke it off because he found her too dorky.  Pam does not give a shit about any of this, since she loves Jim.  However, fricken Jim can not let it go and obsesses over it "How could you not be madly in love with Pam?"

Jack does look at Rebecca as the perfect women, his own personal Madonna that he is very insecure about her leaving him, even though she has not done anything herself to warrant that jealousy. 

I almost wish Rebecca had any career besides singing.  I feel like the only reason that sing is her passion is that they cast Mandy Moore to play her.  I also wish they had not put the stupid ex in the group.  His presence complicates everything unnecessarily.  It was almost like the writers were like "Hey, a group of guys are not going to be doing a two week tour with Mandy Moore without one of them hitting on her, especially if they had previously dated."

Without the ex (or even with), the tour is really not that big of a deal to drive Jack to the bottle.  I felt like in "The Office", the male writers were trying to go for what women want in the perfect man in the character of Jim.  Here, I feel like the (again probably mostly male) writers are trying to make Jack into what they think women want in a husband.  A man who literally can not live one second without you, which is annoying not romantic.

Again, the problem with this episode is not Jack or Rebecca, but how badly this was written, though there were some good parts.  This is the first season and we do not know enough about the Jack and Rebecca relationship for this type of blow out to have the desired impact.

[possibilities]

RE how is she pulling her weight if her work is so unnecessary: she feels like she is not as needed as she used to be, which I think is reasonable, as her children are teenagers, not toddlers. But, either way, it sounds like some people think she should never get a break. If Jack never took a vacation from his job, people would think that was unreasonable. There is no evidence that they are in dire straits like in some families, where it really is necessary to be at the grindstone all the time and there's no slack to be had.

I personally don't think it would be wrong if Jack wanted to take a golf vacation with Miguel, either. He never asked for that, but I know lots of people who take vacations with as well as separately from their spouses.

[laurakaye]

12 hours ago, Cardie said:

According to an interview with Mandy Moore, that's exactly what happened.

(regarding Rebecca, after the fight, looking wistfully at the hallway at the top of the stairs): You're kidding me.  I got it right?!  But even though I got it right, I found her pointedly gazing at that particular area of hallway worthy of a hefty eye-roll.  I have never seen a show where the characters place so much heavy emphasis on certain places, or traditions, or remember down to the smallest detail how a certain event took place 20 years ago, etc.  So if Jack had been sitting there, waiting for Rebecca at the top of the stairs, she would've forgiven him?  And because he had the audacity to be sitting on the couch, she asked him to leave?  Wow...that's a mighty big leap for the writers to expect viewers to swallow.

 

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I have a really hard time seeing Rebecca as a feminist icon, throwing off the shackles of the patriarchy. To me, she's just spoiled and entitled. Has she ever had to support herself or anyone else financially? Based on what she told her girlfriends, all she was doing in her early 20s was singing at open mic nights and sending her demo to labels. She still didn't seem to be doing anything else eight years later when she and Jack decided to get pregnant. When she wanted to send Randall to private school, did it even occur to her to take a part-time job to help pay for his tuition? No, she took the problem to Jack, he said he'd "make it work" and she didn't question it because she was off the hook. Jack made many sacrifices over the years to provide for the family that she just took for granted, but the minute he objected to her going on tour, she got really ugly with him, telling him he was "holding her back" and what not. She tried unsuccessfully for at least eight years to make it in the music industry before she had kids, but it never seemed to occur to her that the reason for that could be insufficient talent or stage presence on her part. Not when she could conveniently blame Jack.

So many good posts in this thread, and this paragraph stood out to me because it's a great example of how we, as viewers, are having to fill in the blanks for ourselves because the writers aren't giving us enough to go on.

Are the writers just having a good laugh at our expense?  I sometimes wonder.  Because love this show or not, there have been some very good debates in these threads about what exactly is going on with these characters.  I feel like the bottom line is that because we don't really know, we are filling in the missing parts based on what we think might be going on.  But since the writers aren't telling us, we're basically in the position of co-writing the storylines along with the show writers.  To me this is because the characters are just lightly-drawn sketches.  They are not "filled in," they are not colorful, we don't know their motivations because we haven't been given a very good base of understanding.  I am one who enjoyed the concept of the very first episode - who were these people, and how did they relate to one another?  But 18 episodes in, I feel like the show peaked with those first couple of episodes, and from that point on, the "OMG Cry-Fest All the Feelz!!" took over.  The writers are pulling out every trick in the book to make viewers cry, but not giving us enough to really get invested.  I can't help but see each one of them as a stereotype - the saint, the pretty boy, the sassy one, etc.  So I don't care what happens to them, because none of them ring true as fully-fleshed out people.