S01.E18: Moonshadow

[luna1122]

I think the fight was just a lot of low blows and half truths, said in the heat of the moment. Like most fights. I don't believe Rebecca feels her life is nothing or pointless. I don't believe Jack thinks her singing is pathetic; it's what made him fall for her in the first place. I think they were just both being ugly.

I also don't think Rebecca is a bad person for wanting to sing. I don't think she's expecting to get famous or rich, I think it's just that singing is the thing that is hers, and it makes her feel, you know, most alive. We all have that thing. Most of us don't get to live it or make it our career, but it doesn't mean we give it up altogether. I am absolutely not on board with the idea that wanting to pursue it every now and then, even, heavens forfend, taking a couple weeks to travel to do it, makes her a bad wife or a bad mom or a bad person. She wasn't doing it for money or fame, or to get laid by the ex, who she shut down immediately. She just wants a little something that's only hers. I get Jack not being happy about it, feeling threatened by it, but his reaction, and his drinking, were over the top, and his attitude that she should just be happy being home while he provides was a little misogynistic. Jack is not a saint, just because he makes long winded pretty speeches (which I really get tired of before they're done, no matter how pretty Milo is).

That said, I also hate the 'throw the guy out of the house' thing after a fight. Separations are rarely, in my experience, a good thing, and very often lead to divorce. Stick it out, fight it out, stay together, or don't, but there's no 'we were on a break' from a real relationship, imo.

I read that Rebecca's toying with the moon necklace at the end was actually not scripted, that when a tear fell down Mandy's face, it fell onto the moon and she instinctively reached for it. I don't know if I believe that, it sure appeared to be planned, and it really seems like a touch these writers would have gone for, but who knows. If it really was just serendipitous, it's kind of nice.

[sarthaz]

2 minutes ago, tribeca said:

I would date Evan though  

Guy wears an American Flag tie to a blind date.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

Maybe the writers of the show have mother issues?  (As do I, so this is not meant to be flippant.)  And that's why the scales seem to weigh so heavily in favour to Jack over Rebecca?

I think they are both flawed. I think that Jack comes off a bit saintly because his wants are very simple, to be a good husband and father. 

I loved this episode and think it lived up to the hype. As I've said before, I don't care how and when Jack dies, so I didn't expect him to do so in this episode. For anyone invested in the elder Pearson's marriage, this was a very important episode. After all, experts say that next to death, divorce is the most stressful experience for people. 

10 hours ago, OptimisticCynic said:

Did Jack, during their argument, say she was 40? That's a big continuity error. She had the kids when she was 30, making her 45/46. I hate when shows can't get simple details right. I get neither of them look their ages (46 and 52), but they're the ages  they are supposed to be. 

 I took Jack's comment less literally, though he could have said her exact age or something along the lines of "40-something."

[Literata]

10 hours ago, Autumn said:

I think the writers are going to regret setting up Jack's death as some major mystery  It works in the short term but it is not a good long term plan.  They can either drag out the reveal until people get angry and frustrated enough to stop watching or they can reveal it and leave some people feeling like they lost the thing that was compelling about the show.

I think they both had good points in the fight but until Jack stops drinking she is right not to want him in the house.  I thought the acting was great this episode but I wasn't anywhere close to tears.

Exactly right about the "major mystery" suspense. That's precisely why I stopped watching The Blacklist. My husband still watches and every so often I'll ask, "Hey, do you know if Red is Liz's dad yet?" I'm not patient enough for the endless string-along.

[laurakaye]

18 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

Kate singing? Her character is just too all over the place. 

I feel like Kate is the character that the writers of this show really wanted people to connect with, but I agree - I know next to nothing about her.  I don't get any chemistry between her and Toby whatsoever.  I don't know if she's still working for Jamie Gertz or not?  Honestly, I don't even know if she and Toby are living together?  She tends to pop into random scenes and I find myself wondering how she got there, is she missing work, etc.  I don't know her at all.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, againstthewind said:

Still cried though, when Jack was lamenting how he was a good person that didn't get breaks, and then at the end when he told Rebecca that she was his big break. And yes, that fight was a great bit of writing. It was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.

When he talked about his father choosing the wrong path each time, I found it kind of ironic that he was doing the same - the poker game for easy money (despite his friend's sensible caution) and planning a robbery, for goodness sake. So his "I'm a good person" didn't move me all that much.

11 hours ago, elle said:

Was it my imagination or was the signature missing from the record label rejection form letter than Rebecca received?

Nope, not your imagination. I noticed it too. I've gotten a few unsigned rejections in my time. It's cold.

My guess is Kate feels she's to blame because her urging Jack to make things right with Rebecca did the opposite, leading to a breakup which likely was still in place when he died. I'm still thinking that line about "dying when no one was looking" was meant to foreshadow Jack's death.

[qtpye]

10 hours ago, betha said:

That's a good question. I would say the attitudes were mixed, much as they are now. There were plenty of female breadwinners and high earners in the 1990s. But two-parent families were more likely than now to be able to be supported by one main income. My mom worked and most friends' moms worked, but it was for lower pay and seen as supplemental. There was more pressure on the man to be a sole provider --whereas now there is more pressure on/need for both parents to earn. 

 

10 hours ago, Amethyst said:

He was pretty blithe about Rebecca being a SAHM and her dreams outside the home, but the problem is that they didn't do enough build-up for these problems with Jack.  They've spent most of the season showing him as a saintly father and husband, and in the last 3 episodes, try to force this "He's a budding alcoholic with jealousy issues!" stuff and it's not convincing.  As it is, the drinking problem was barely a blip on the radar.  Rebecca said he quit cold turkey, no meetings, no withdrawal, conveniently open and shut.  As for the jealousy, that's a pretty new development, too.  Not saying that Jack is immune to jealousy, but it would have been nice for them to plant some seeds about these flaws throughout the season instead of cramming them in at the end.

And the writers have never shied away when it comes to Rebecca's flaws.  Even now, she's the one asking Jack to move out of the house.  The writers did a poor job balancing out their personalities in the latter half of the season.

 

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

I agree that even this two week tour wasn't going to fix the problem that she was having in terms of her future with the kids all grown up, but I think she desperately wanted to see if it would. She got married because Jack wanted to, right? She hadn't wanted to get married and settle down until Jack convinced her to. Then, Jack begged her to have kids and then she did, all because he did. She did end up loving them, but having kids at the age of 30 wasn't in her future plans at that moment. Then, she set aside her dream of singing for who knows how long until she joined Ben's band much later, while juggling her primary role of taking care of her three kids. She did sacrifice a lot for twenty years, I truly believe that. And I do think it was just slowly building until this episode, which can happen. 

Well, she didn't admit it to him, but she did admit it to herself after Ben moved in on her. I give her a total pass for this because both of them were very upset that night and in the morning. She wasn't in the frame of mind to apologize, and that's fine. Sometimes, it does take more than a few hours to admit fault out loud. 

I think the problem is that Jack was the one to make this huge speech about love and their love story, so it makes Rebecca automatically look like the bad guy for kicking him out and not apologizing and not making the first step. It's why I wanted Rebecca to make some big speech at the end. The issue is definitely that they keep trying to make Jack look like the better person above Rebecca. They only started shoving his insecurities and jealousy issues in the last three episodes. While we've seen Rebecca, flaws and all, we're only getting some glimpses of Jack's, so it's incredibly uneven and a bit unfair that Rebecca is shown to be the "worst" of the two. It's why I can't completely hate Rebecca; I feel sorry for the writing of her character. Realistic, but unfair when we instinctively compare her to Jack. We really should have seen more of Jack's jealousy issues throughout the season, instead of them cramming it into the last few episodes so their separation would feel realistic. 

 

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Maybe the writers of the show have mother issues?  (As do I, so this is not meant to be flippant.)  And that's why the scales seem to weigh so heavily in favour to Jack over Rebecca?

If anyone watched LOST, every single character on the show had a horrible father.  Hence, our constant jokes about the writers all having major Daddy issues..... Not that Rebecca is horrible, I just totally get some people's annoyances that halos seem to hover above Jack and William and Rebecca gets painted so differently.  Although, I agree with the poster above who found Jack's antics unbelievable this episode.  Hard to paint him as a saint and then turn around and paint him as somebody who would be so mocking towards Rebecca's aspirations.  That was low, for me.  I guess the drinking is a bit more believable since there has been foreshadowing and drinking and driving is a very realistic epidemic.

I think, and hope, that many reasonable people know that a lot of stay at home parents don't necessarily feel 100% fulfilled.  It's an issue I've been hearing about since I was a teenager.  2 mother characters on the show "Big Little Lies" expressed it this past week, and the posters were so sympathetic.  Things are so different here.  

 

9 hours ago, Trooper York said:

Why wasn't Rebecca working outside of the home for years by now. I mean the kids were all the same age and she could certainly have a job to bring money into the house. The was never any mention of that.  It was the 1990's not the 1890's. Everybody has a two family income  especially with the prospect of three  college tuitions.

She just seem consistently unpleasant and sort of lazy. Maybe it is the writer's mommy issues. Maybe mommy ran off to be a singer instead of getting a job in medical billing to pay for their college tuition. Who knows?

If she was so good and so determined why isn't she singing now?

Because it is all a big bag of baloney?

 

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

I think Jack does take Rebecca's contribution seriously -- perhaps too seriously; he sees motherhood as Rebecca's sole identity as well as her vocation. It's her sacrifice that he doesn't see as on a par with his own. And it isn't on a par; it's entirely different. Jack's sacrifice is enacted daily and it's rest, a business of his own, more time with the children, a little time alone with Rebecca, any time for recreation. Rebecca's sacrifice is compounded daily and it's freedom, work out in the world, more time free of answering to others, a little time alone with Jack, any time to pursue a passion. It's the anxiety she still feels as a reluctant mother, seemingly trapped back into her own mother's role. Trapped by living up to love. 

 

8 hours ago, DayGlorious said:

SO GLAD this one's over.

@Trooper York has said so much of what I wanted to say about Rebecca. Her woe-is-me martyr routine is OLD, not to mention delusional. What exactly did she give up for Jack and the kids again? A "career" singing at open-mic nights where no one gets paid and crummy yinzer bars where the crowd DGAF, and future Stepford wife friends who cast pity on her for being in her early 20s and unmarried. Wow, what a sacrifice. Of course, singing in Ben's crappy band is the ONLY way she could find some meaning in her life. (And I don't buy for a second that she didn't know how Ben...I mean, Boner felt. Not only did she know, but she liked the attention.) Volunteering, going back to school, *gasp* getting a job -- nope, no one EVER did that in the 1990s. As for having no life, that is the sum total of being rude, obnoxious, condescending, and/or cruel to almost every single person who crosses her path, including her husband and the father of her adopted son (who she hunted down, not once but twice, for the express purpose of treating him like crap). Everything about Rebecca screams "high school mean girl who never really grew up." It's fitting that even Kevin, who puts up plenty of behavioral parallels as evidence that he inherited her awfulness*, does not appear terribly close to her. 

* I'm thinking specifically of Rebecca's preggo liquor-store scene vs. Kevin's diner-booth scene and her persistence in finding William vs. his in reconnecting with Sophie. 

Lord, I am sorry to quote so many posts, but you guys have such awesome comments.

I thought it was interesting that the show hinted that Jack and Rebecca come from two different socioeconomic back grounds.

Jack seemed to come from a very blue collar household.  He is a scrapper and desperately wants to make a better life for himself (also prove that he is not the loser his father thinks he is), but going to college or trying out for a more white collar type job is not in the cards for him.

When the friend set Rebecca up, she set her up with a guy that would be termed a "yuppie" in the eighties (though I know the date is taking place in the seventies).  He was a professional polished guy, who probably made a good living in finance (ironically, probably similar to Randall).

Rebecca is coming of age in an era where later first wave feminism is hitting hard.  It was still expected that a woman's main vocation would be marriage, but a lot of middle and upper middle class women were beginning to shake off these traditional roles and trying to find fulfillment outside the home.

The last thing she probably wanted was to end up a bitter and unfulfilled housewife like her mother.

Jack is a blue collar guy who wants to work hard and provide a much better life for his beautiful family, then he ever had.  He probably has wanted this the minute he laid eyes on Rebecca singing.

I thought it was very telling that the first thing he said he loved about her, was how she was as a mother.  To him there is nothing more sacred and to her she wants something a little more out of life.  If you watch Roseanne from the nineties, a lot of blue collar women worked menial jobs, but men still controlled the finances (this comes up when Dan does not want to borrow money from Roseanne's sister but does not mind lending it to another guy...though I do not remember the specifics of the episode...it was a long time ago, lol).  To Jack, he was probably sparing Rebecca, by working around the clock, so she does not have to work outside the home.

Flash forward to 2017.  The truth is that being a stay at home mother (or father) is a luxury that fewer  and fewer people can afford (myself included).  I work full time and miss out on a lot of things with my kids (just to be clear, I am the mother).  Also, with the high cost of child care many people in two income households feel like they can not ahead for trying.

Staying at home and raising the children was never an easy task.  Heck, I do not know how Rebecca did not go crazy being home all day with three babies during the early years.  However, she still has the luxury of a stable middle class lifestyle where her husband's job can and does pay all the bills.  Her dreams are artistic, so they seem frivolous.  I know many women who would love to pursue their artistic passion, but can not while working to bring in money to put food on the table and taking care of the family.  In 2017 most of the household chores and child raising fall to women, even if the majority work outside of the home.

So, Rebecca's lament is still looking like privilege to us in the modern day.  What she sees as sacrifice is a lifestyle now a lot of us would give our right arm to have...the unfulfilled housewife or househusband.

[JudyObscure]

13 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I am absolutely not on board with the idea that wanting to pursue it every now and then, even, heavens forfend, taking a couple weeks to travel to do it, makes her a bad wife or a bad mom or a bad person.

I'm not against her wanting to pursue it either, what I'm against is her obvious resentment toward her husband and children because she isn't a big success at it.  Her speech to Jack made it sound like she absolutely hates and blames  him for her own disappointment in her singing career and her feelings that she's a ghost in her house.  Those are things she herself is responsible for.  She could have been working in the office at Randall's school to pay his tuition (something my friend is doing) or clerking in a music store and teaching  piano. There are lots of things she could have done and didn't.  I don't think Jack thought she should "just be happy," but he knew he made sacrifices for the family so he  didn't see what was so wrong about her making sacrifices, too.  I think we saw evidence over the season that he did appreciate what she did as a stay at home mom.  He just didn't think he was a monster because she had to do that. 

 Jack had been okay with her doing her thing  several nights a week and he was trying to be okay with the whole tour thing.  It wasn't until he found out that she and the guy in her band had once been an item that he got really upset about it and why not?  The two would be doing exciting shows together with the adrenaline rush of performing in front of big crowds, then returning late to the same hotel while still pumped and wide awake.  It was a dangerous situation, not like taking art classes or joining the local theatre group.

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, Trooper York said:

What career? Singing covers in dive bars because the piano player wants to bang her?

No wonder her kids hate her. 

If Rebecca hadn't been singing in bars, she and Jack never would have met.

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm not against her wanting to pursue it either, what I'm against is her obvious resentment toward her husband and children because she isn't a big success at it.  Her speech to Jack made it sound like she absolutely hates and blames  him for her own disappointment in her singing career and her feelings that she's a ghost in her house.  Those are things she herself is responsible for.  She could have been working in the office at Randall's school to pay his tuition (something my friend is doing) or clerking in a music store and teaching  piano. There are lots of things she could have done and didn't.  I don't think Jack thought she should "just be happy," but he knew he made sacrifices for the family so he  didn't see what was so wrong about her making sacrifices, too.  I think we saw evidence over the season that he did appreciate what she did as a stay at home mom.  He just didn't think he was a monster because she had to do that. 

Think of how different our view of Rebecca would be if instead of seeing beautiful, well put together Mandy Moore in an immaculate house, we see her come home disheveled and frustrated from a crap job she hates but has to do, because three college tuitions at the same time are expensive. 

We see her tiredly come home and doggedly prepare dinner, right before she had to go back out and drive her teenage kids to all their activities.  The laundry is piling up, the house is okay (not horribly messy), but she does not have the time to make it look as nice as she wants. 

I bet you I described the life of quite a few viewers.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, DeepPoet117 said:

Randall and Beth are going to adopt a boy and name him Jack William (or William Jack) aren't they?

Maybe Kate calls him and asks him to come pick them up from the sleepover or something? Would Jack have had a cell phone or car phone in 1996 or whenever that was?

I'm really glad Kevin decided to go meet with Ron Howard. I think career wise, it's a much smarter move than staying in NY and trying to get work as a theatre actor.

Billy Jack?  I hope not.

I don't think Jack had a cell phone because we saw him call the party from a payphone.

Sure, careerwise it's a smart move.  But, if he's unable to stay faithful to Sophie when distance is involved, it's not a smart relationship move.  And, if she really is the love of his life since he was 10, that's what is more important.

[Biggie B]

I promise to go back and read all four pages that precede my post, but I just want to say how utterly BORING that episode was. Wow. It did not hold my attention well at all. I honestly do not care one iota how Jack and Rebecca met. What's next, are we going to get flashbacks to each of them in high school? Elementary school? Being born? This is absurd! I am so sorry I watched this show "live" - I kept trying to fast forward it in the hopes that there would be at least something to captivate me. OK...their knock down, drag out fight was pretty decent and fairly realistic - the shouting over each other especially. I like that each of them said some really nasty shit - that's what happens, unfortunately, when you are really lashing out in anger and pain. You say some bad stuff.

Question (and if this has been answered already, I'll eventually edit this out): seeing as Jack is a Vietnam vet, and I'm assuming he was honorably discharged, would he not receive some sort of assistance or pension from the military? I have never had a family member in the armed forces, nor do I personally know anyone who served or is currently serving, so I don't know how any of that works. And perhaps at the time Jack was scrounging and scraping for jobs and money, there were no resources in place for vets. So I was slightly distracted during the scene when Jack's father was berating him for living in their attic - all I could think of was, should Jack be getting at least a few pennies for his service? But again - perhaps that wasn't how things worked back then (and perhaps still don't?).

So I guess Beth will go back to work full time and Randall will be a stay at home dad? That could be interesting, and would sure be a complete lifestyle change for the entire family. If that's what happens, I hope the other two little wonderful daughters don't feel they're being pushed to the side by the new baby, and that Randall continues to lavish as much love and attention on them as they deserve.

Kate wants to sing - that's fine, but how will she support herself? I guess Toby will foot her bills?

Kevin - I'm glad Sophie encouraged him to go have the meeting in LA. I hope he gets the movie role. I'm very neutral about his story line.

So overall - I give this episode a big thumbs down. It was duller than a bag of hair. I'll tune in when it starts back up, though. I just hope HARD that there's more focus on the current day. That's my preference. I want to see if and how Kate will ever talk to Toby about her father's death. But I fear we'll just have a looooong descent into Jack's death - it will be as drawn out as possible - and then endless episodes about the teenaged twins dealing with their loss. If that's how it goes...I may not last too long.

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I thought it was very telling that the first thing he said he loved about her, was how she was as a mother.  To him there is nothing more sacred and to her she wants something a little more out of life.

I agree, it is very telling.  I interpreted his description of what he loved about her -- good mother, great smile, most beautiful woman in any room -- as a bit of a Madonna complex.  When she tries to step outside of that, he is a little threatened.  He likes her being in that role and he has a flare-up of drinking and jealousy, while simultaneously recognizing that meeting her saved him from a possible low-life path and their love story is only just beginning (a little over the top for me).  Not a classic Madonna-whore complex, because they're still ever so hot for each other (the sizzling bathroom in the first apartment scene was only a few weeks ago), but he is not so comfortable with her being outside the confines of what he pictures she should be.  For her part she is not so blissed out about his work hours and passing out after dinner.  They typify to me the trade-offs most everybody makes.  They don't need separation, they just did some truth-telling that could lead to understanding and compromise.  It would be nice to get to see that instead of more dramatic speechifying. 

[Indy]

That was....underwhelming. If we are going to spend the entire duration of the series waiting to find out how Jack died, I'm not going to be happy.  I'm not even sure I have the attention span to wait until next fall for more episodes of the show. 

So they've basically established that Kate is NewRebecca, Randall and Beth are NewPearsons, and I guess that makes Kevin NewJack. I assume that Season 2 will be them becoming their parents. Randall & Beth's story line is the only one that interests me.  

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Question (and if this has been answered already, I'll eventually edit this out): seeing as Jack is a Vietnam vet, and I'm assuming he was honorably discharged, would he not receive some sort of assistance or pension from the military? I have never had a family member in the armed forces, nor do I personally know anyone who served or is currently serving, so I don't know how any of that works. And perhaps at the time Jack was scrounging and scraping for jobs and money, there were no resources in place for vets. So I was slightly distracted during the scene when Jack's father was berating him for living in their attic - all I could think of was, should Jack be getting at least a few pennies for his service? But again - perhaps that wasn't how things worked back then (and perhaps still don't?).

Vietnam veterans did have education benefits available.  I wondered why he wasn't doing something like at least part-time college.  I was a little annoyed by the way they showed him counting his meager earnings in the attic, overdoing the point of how he was getting desperate to realize his dream of an auto shop.  A decent, motivated guy like him would probably be in school, unless he had been a really poor high school student, I suppose.  He was 28, not a kid, and I found it a little hard to swallow that he was willing to pull off a robbery of a mafia-connected business. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, DeepPoet117 said:

Randall and Beth are going to adopt a boy and name him Jack William (or William Jack) aren't they?

 I predict this will be an open adoption (with all the potential complications), so that this baby will not have the experience that Randall did.

The $64,000 question is:  Where will the new baby sleep?  Randall and Beth need to buy bunk beds and make Tess and Annie's roommate situation permanent!

[Thalia]

11 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Didn't Rebecca quit after the guy kissed her? And she called Jack, saying she missed him? I get resentment over his drinking, but he didn't end her gig this time.

This is true, but I think Rebecca hit the nail on the head when she said Jack started drinking as a passive-aggressive away to get her to stay home.  He may not have fully articulated it in his own head, but a drinking problem on his part was tailor-made to keep her at home with the kids, being supportive of him while he "got help."  

I don't know about a separation, but those two definitely need counseling or at least to sit down and really discuss what they each have brought to the marriage and the kids.  Rebecca at least knows -- she screamed it at the piano dude a few weeks ago when he mocked Jack.  I'm not sure Jack does.  

[llewis823]

40 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I know many women who would love to pursue their artistic passion, but can not while working to bring in money to put food on the table and taking care of the family.  In 2017 most of the household chores and child raising fall to women, even if the majority work outside of the home.

So, Rebecca's lament is still looking like privilege to us in the modern day.  What she sees as sacrifice is a lifestyle now a lot of us would give our right arm to have...the unfulfilled housewife or househusband.

This was my dream. I have enough hobbies, etc. that would have kept me busy doing creative things I wanted to do with my time instead of doing what other people want me to do for 8 hours per day so our family can barely make it on two decent middle-class incomes.

[LadyMarmalade]

10 hours ago, tribeca said:

I really can't stop thinking of Rebecca poor blind date and how rude she was to him.   She had to sing. 

Right, she could have waited until the end of dinner, and then invited him to go watch her sing. And if he made an excuse not to go, then that would have been a good reason not to pursue anything with him. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

12 hours ago, milner said:

When they came out of the poker game I was yelling "Run"!!

I just finished Sneaky Pete on Amazon, so I bet I was yelling louder than you!

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, LadyMarmalade said:

Right, she could have waited until the end of dinner, and then invited him to go watch her sing. And if he made an excuse not to go, then that would have been a good reason not to pursue anything with him. 

On the other hand, he appeared to be massively late and then just talked about his job nonstop. I'm definitely not advocating for returning rudeness for rudeness, but I don't feel sorry for him.

Actually, I think one of the few (perhaps only) thing I liked about this episode was thinking that Jack and Rebecca were being set up with each other and it turned out it was with two completely different people. 

[PepSinger]

20 hours ago, Trooper York said:

What career? Singing covers in dive bars because the piano player wants to bang her?

No wonder her kids hate her. 

That is not why she wanted to sing with the group. She wanted to sing with the group because she loves to sing. Also, there is no concrete definition of a "career." Not everyone who wants to be a singer or actor wants to be famous. Some do it because we genuinely enjoy what we do and if any major opportunity arrises from that, then great. If not, then that's okay, too. 

It is very easy to become the hated parent when you're the one around the most often, especially when the other parent dies. Also, her kids do not hate her. This show has not given any indication that her kids hate her. You can be angry with someone without hating the person. 

I am very sympathetic to Rebecca. I think she has done the best she can do regarding her family. I have never doubted her love of Jack or her children.

Edited March 15, 2017 by PepSinger

[luna1122]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Guy wears an American Flag tie to a blind date.

Omigosh, that made me laugh. Kiss of death.

47 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm not against her wanting to pursue it either, what I'm against is her obvious resentment toward her husband and children because she isn't a big success at it.  Her speech to Jack made it sound like she absolutely hates and blames  him for her own disappointment in her singing career and her feelings that she's a ghost in her house.  Those are things she herself is responsible for.  She could have been working in the office at Randall's school to pay his tuition (something my friend is doing) or clerking in a music store and teaching  piano. There are lots of things she could have done and didn't.  I don't think Jack thought she should "just be happy," but he knew he made sacrifices for the family so he  didn't see what was so wrong about her making sacrifices, too.  I think we saw evidence over the season that he did appreciate what she did as a stay at home mom.  He just didn't think he was a monster because she had to do that. 

 Jack had been okay with her doing her thing  several nights a week and he was trying to be okay with the whole tour thing.  It wasn't until he found out that she and the guy in her band had once been an item that he got really upset about it and why not?  The two would be doing exciting shows together with the adrenaline rush of performing in front of big crowds, then returning late to the same hotel while still pumped and wide awake.  It was a dangerous situation, not like taking art classes or joining the local theatre group.

I've mentioned it before, but my significant other is a musician. He teaches at a school for the blind, he teaches private lessons, and he does local gigs with various bands. He's often got gigs on the weekends. We don't have kids; sometimes I go, more often, after 12+ years together, I do not, as it eventually sort of becomes like going to your partner's job, and you don't really do that. Very occasionally, he's had an out of town gig overnight; again, sometimes I go, sometimes not--no kids, but I can't take off work for that. If he were to have the opportunity to go on a two week 'tour' out of town, I would not be thrilled. All of the things Jack said and thought: I might also think. Not like you're gonna get rich and famous from this. You're almost 40. It's silly. Add in dark bars and booze and I might also get insecure and jealous, and that's WITHOUT a sexy ex also in the band. So I get Jack. I kind of hope this situation never does come up, but I also hope I'd handle it better than Rebecca and Jack did. I DO wonder why Rebecca hasn't gotten at least a part time day job after the kids were a certain age, but that apparently is something she and Jack worked out/agreed on/whatever, and presumably she's bringing in at least a little $$ from her gigs.

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Billy Jack?  I hope not.

I don't think Jack had a cell phone because we saw him call the party from a payphone.

Sure, careerwise it's a smart move.  But, if he's unable to stay faithful to Sophie when distance is involved, it's not a smart relationship move.  And, if she really is the love of his life since he was 10, that's what is more important.

Ha. Billy Jack. I'm curious about why, in Jack's portentous VO, it seemed as if Kevin's choice to go for the Ron Howard audition was a bad one. Just cuz he might lose Sophie--not that that is an insignificant thing, but is that the only reason? Can Kevin really not keep it in his jeans if he's away from Sophie? Doesn't really sound like mythic love. I'm assuming, tho, there is slightly more to the Kevin cheating years ago story than JUST that.

32 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree, it is very telling.  I interpreted his description of what he loved about her -- good mother, great smile, most beautiful woman in any room -- as a bit of a Madonna complex.  When she tries to step outside of that, he is a little threatened.  He likes her being in that role and he has a flare-up of drinking and jealousy, while simultaneously recognizing that meeting her saved him from a possible low-life path and their love story is only just beginning (a little over the top for me).  Not a classic Madonna-whore complex, because they're still ever so hot for each other (the sizzling bathroom in the first apartment scene was only a few weeks ago), but he is not so comfortable with her being outside the confines of what he pictures she should be.  For her part she is not so blissed out about his work hours and passing out after dinner.  They typify to me the trade-offs most everybody makes.  They don't need separation, they just did some truth-telling that could lead to understanding and compromise.  It would be nice to get to see that instead of more dramatic speechifying. 

Yep.

[JudyObscure]

51 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Question (and if this has been answered already, I'll eventually edit this out): seeing as Jack is a Vietnam vet, and I'm assuming he was honorably discharged, would he not receive some sort of assistance or pension from the military?

As Shadow facts said, Jack would be able to get lots of help toward college or trade school tuition.  That's about all.  Retirement benefits for military begins after serving 20 years.  Veterans who served on active duty in foreign wars for  90 days or more may be eligible for a bit of pension after age 65.

If Jack had been injured or  disabled while in the service he would be eligible for  disability assistance. That can be as much as $3,300 a month.  I was involved with a NAMI group for families of mentally ill people and it was striking that if a young person got schizophrenia while in college (typical age for onset is late teens to early twenties) the government's SSDI would pay them a little over $1000 per month, but if that young person had joined the military instead of college he would get $3,000 for life.  Big difference.

[Biggie B]

Thanks, JudyObscure and Shadowfacts for the info regarding benefits for vets. Yes, even if Jack enrolled in college or trade school with the help of the military, he'd still have no income. I sort of figured that he was too young and hadn't been in the military long enough to receive a pension, but I wasn't sure.

[ZaldamoWilder]

14 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I want 46-year old Rebecca's skincare regimen. Like, NOW. Wow, did she look amazing in that 40's glam look.

Congrats to everyone who called them not actually killing off Jack.

Maybe Rebecca and Kate can become the Judds?

skincare regimen = start by being 32.   Not snark directed at you method, I kind of hate having to do 10-15 year mind leap to a woman with 3 teenagers and not a wrinkle or dark circle in sight.   She turned around in that dress and I was like not even a pocket of jiggly side boob/back fat?  come. the. hell. on.

14 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

As soon as they showed Randall looking at the family photos, it was predictable to me.  He was going to go to Beth to tell her he wanted another baby.  That he wanted to adopt one was irrelevant imo.  When we were shown very early on that Beth's pregnancy scare really was a "scare" for them because they dreamed of their retirement scenario, something of which I got the impression was not that far off, I was like "yeah, right"...because, um, at 36 we all have plans to retire in the near future ;)

The whole premise doesn't work for me for this exact reason.   They were both all:  phew when the test was negative.   Now I'm supposed to believe, Randall, of all people, is suddenly so devil may care throw caution to the wind-ish as to raise another baby on a whim?   Okay show look, marching into the conference room and telling your boss to blow goats is one thing, but impulse adoption?   Nah bruh. 

14 hours ago, Trooper York said:

What career? Singing covers in dive bars because the piano player wants to bang her?

The problem is this isn't for him to say.   An episode or so ago, Saint Pearson told Miguel that singing again was kind of her dream and he knew it, so the irrational objections to having her fulfill her dream because he had to pick up the slack that mothers do everyday and win no awards for seemed, well, kind of dickish.   To have the guy with enough self awareness acknowledge that and then say the thing that solidified said dickishness was disappointing.   Didn't take long for Saint Pearson's consciousness to dissolve in that six pack huh?   Somehow he's still the hero and she's an ungrateful bitch.   The writers did absolutely help with her lines in the fight.   Whoever ever goes here:   you're just like your mother/father, automatic  ringside point deduction for low blow.  That's a tough one to come back from.  

Judy if Rebecca had been the one to leave the house by going back on tour, it would cement Jack's fans selfish bitch trope.   Can you believe she abandoned her family in the middle of this crises they're having?  She's just gonna go back to her ex and sing like nothing's wrong?   Stankin heffa.   That's a no win.   The only way that scene would've looked realistic to me is if he were the one to say we need some space, no speech.  Because the idea that this man does nothing but love on his wife with such blind and utter devotion, yet is able to belittle and dismiss her with such ease does not reconcile smoothly. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by ZaldamoWilder
Gellervoice. Y-o-u-r-e means you are. Y-o-u-r means YOUR.

[MV713]

This may be discussed somewhere else, but I have a hard time figuring out, or keeping track of, where everyone lives.

Can someone clarify?  Because it seems awfully quick to jump around from NYC to a suburb to a bus to Philly (when William was going every day)?
 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

By the way, was anyone else concerned for Rebecca's luggage?  She didn't even take the time to change into whatever clothes she might have worn to the nightclub.  Presumably, her luggage is in the car of whoever was driving the group to their first gig - as I recall, she had quite a bit of it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[bostonbarney]

12 hours ago, againstthewind said:

I agree entirely, but wasn't that kind of the prevailing attitude at the time? Rebecca and Jack are/were 10 and 15 years older than my parents, respectively so I genuinely don't know. 

Unfortunately, my guess is that it's still the prevailing attitude.

[qtpye]

Was groping ex the only other person in the band?  I could not help but think, if it really was a group then she let down her commitment by having to drive Jack back in his state.  If the group flakes out on this gig because they have no singer, it will probably kill their reputation for future work.

[ZaldamoWilder]

4 minutes ago, MV713 said:

This may be discussed somewhere else, but I have a hard time figuring out, or keeping track of, where everyone lives.

Can someone clarify?  Because it seems awfully quick to jump around from NYC to a suburb to a bus to Philly (when William was going every day)?
 

Kevin, Kate and Toby live in L.A. 

Randall, Beth and the girls live in middle-north Jersey.

Rebecca and Miguel - I believe they're also in Jersey (maybe further south) because they were close enough to Randalls' house to stop in and say hi on their way to a Broadway play.

Sophie is a secret heiress or something because it looks like she lives in Brooklyn or Manhattan but either way, in a very nice brownstone in New York City.

[BeatrixK]

Random thoughts on Season Finale -

-  It was....underwhelming.  Had it's moments...but I don't think I busted out one Kleenex at all.  WTF, Show?!?!

- I knew the poker game was gonna be trouble the SECOND Jack pushed away from the table after playing one hand.  That is considered bad poker 'etiquette' in even normal circles, let alone shady back ally rooms. (You at least wait for the button to go around once, and even then...you really should just play crazy tight and fold everything for an hour and leave, to at least give the illusion others can 'win their money back.')

- Young Jack had some serious guns.  Damn, boy...

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

If they must be apart for awhile, she can get in the car and rejoin the "tour," while Jack stays home with the kids. 

I don't think going on tour with a guy who's trying to get in your pants is the best way to work on your marriage. 

 

2 hours ago, tribeca said:

 I would date Evan though  

Was that her date?  I don't think I would.   From the little we saw of him he seemed completely self-absorbed.

 

2 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

When you win big at a poker table, you don't immediately walk away. You keep playing, betting as little as possible and folding often, to retain your winnings.

The only thing I know about poker is you need to know when to walk away, know when to run.  So, maybe they needed to run instead of walk.

 

2 hours ago, vendredi3 said:

When you want to make a move on your married ex-whatever-she-was, you don't do it before the show when she's jittery. You wait until after the show when you're both basking in the glow of a great performance.

Or better yet, you don't do it at all.

[BeatrixK]

11 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Was groping ex the only other person in the band?  I could not help but think, if it really was a group then she let down her commitment by having to drive Jack back in his state.  If the group flakes out on this gig because they have no singer, it will probably kill their reputation for future work.

At least we know there must be some Genetic thing to the family performers bailing on their showmates right before a first performance.  (Kevin and his play, and now Rebecca and her band.)

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Was groping ex the only other person in the band?  I could not help but think, if it really was a group then she let down her commitment by having to drive Jack back in his state.  If the group flakes out on this gig because they have no singer, it will probably kill their reputation for future work.

I would lay the blame for that mostly on Ben.  Although, I guess had Ben not kissed her, Jack would have still needed dealing with.  But, Ben kissing her was totally inappropriate and sexual harassment and she had every right to walk away at that point.

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

But then it got unrealistic to me, with Jack's grand speech.  I just did not buy that.  At that point, he did not need to be on the way out the door to Miguel's.  He should not have been orating about how the kids will be fine with him gone.  That was just melodrama and I did not like it.

Totally. Jack and Rebecca's last exchange should have been her half-smiling and musing, "I wonder who you'd have met on that blind date," and Jack/Milo's immediate and ringing reply: "I never do."  

As a mate, as someone married for more than 15 years, you'd know each know in your gut if that were true. As Jack's mate, you'd know that's really why he loves you: because he's never doubted that he does. It might not be what you wanted but it could be enough; it looks like it will have to be.

[Lovecat]

12 hours ago, hiccup said:

It's been said in multiple interviews that they wouldn't reveal this season how Jack died, so I wasn't expecting to see anything about that.  However, in an interview this week it was said that this episode was going to be gut-wrenching and something we've never seen on tv, so in that respect, the episode was uneventful. 

 

2 hours ago, llewis823 said:

I was disappointed only because the show was hyped so much as the finale and that "something" was going to happen. I do not care that it was not the details of Jack's death, and I really did think the beer cans in the car and Kate's guilt were red herrings and that would not be the way/time he died. The "something" I was waiting for was something out of left field - anything out of left field. But nothing drastic unless you count Jack & Rebecca separating as the cliffhanger.

Yeah, I'm still wondering what the "something we've never seen on TV" thing was all about, because I spent the hour turning my little brain inside out trying to figure out what it was going to be (like, I had myself half-convinced that they were going to somehow reveal that Rebecca actually married Ethan (blind date guy), but I could not figure out how that *possibly* could have happened, considering everything else we (the viewing audience) knows)...and at the end I was all, "Weh?  What did I miss?"

[Primetimer]

And many, many tears.

View the full article

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Lovecat said:

Yeah, I'm still wondering what the "something we've never seen on TV" thing was all about

Never before has a perfectly ordinary episode been so overly hyped?

[Spartan Girl]

Sons of bitches Blue Valentined us.

I really hope that this is just a temporary thing and they get back together before Jack's untimely death.

[NutMeg]

The episode was very well done but didn't trigger any emotional response in me (Haha, seems like I've suddenly joined the dry eye poster group...) and I've just figured why: we know Jack and Rebecca are not end game, so it's hard to get invested in a story that I know will end. I know I would have been feeling much more if I hadn't known that Jack is dead in present day.   

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Randall, Beth and the girls live in middle-north Jersey.

Someone said Alpine, NJ was on their mail.  Looking at a map, that's actually on the northern end of NJ, bordering CT, and north of NYC, it looks like. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

Someone said Alpine, NJ was on their mail.  Looking at a map, that's actually on the northern end of NJ, bordering CT, and north of NYC, it looks like. 

Lol, yeah it's 4 minutes off the George Washington Bridge that connects links Manhattan-Bergen County.   Sorry, I should've used the word either middle or north, there's no both.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

55 minutes ago, bostonbarney said:

13 hours ago, againstthewind said:

I agree entirely, but wasn't that kind of the prevailing attitude at the time? Rebecca and Jack are/were 10 and 15 years older than my parents, respectively so I genuinely don't know. 

Unfortunately, my guess is that it's still the prevailing attitude.

Heck, in this thread alone there are many comments about how Randall is unfit to be an adoptive father because he is unemployed.  Even though A) His wife is employed B) As an attorney! and C) They have a lot of money.  Being a stay at home parent is not valued.  If you are a woman, it's supposed to be good enough for you and if it's not you should just get some hobbies.  No complaining allowed.  If you are a man, you are wasting your time if you stay at home.  It's as if you are too good to do that type of unpaid labor.

[Guest]

Does anyone know what aftershow(?) they said Beth is an attorney in?  I don't think they've said it in the show, have they?  Just that she was 'about to go back to work full time'.  I don't doubt for a minute that's the job they'd give her.  Just curious if it's for sure not a rumor.  

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, Lovecat said:

Yeah, I'm still wondering what the "something we've never seen on TV" thing was all about, because I spent the hour turning my little brain inside out trying to figure out what it was going to be (like, I had myself half-convinced that they were going to somehow reveal that Rebecca actually married Ethan (blind date guy), but I could not figure out how that *possibly* could have happened, considering everything else we (the viewing audience) knows)...and at the end I was all, "Weh?  What did I miss?"

It's quite simple.  Jack fixed a car for $5.  I realize it was the late '70s, but still, according to the internet, $5 in 1975 would be about $20 today.  What can you have done on your car (with a house call, no less) for $20? 

[Al Lowe]

  4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

But then it got unrealistic to me, with Jack's grand speech.  I just did not buy that.  At that point, he did not need to be on the way out the door to Miguel's.  He should not have been orating about how the kids will be fine with him gone.  That was just melodrama and I did not like it.

Totally. Jack and Rebecca's last exchange should have been her half-smiling and musing, "I wonder who you'd have met on that blind date," and Jack/Milo's immediate and ringing reply: "I never do."  

As a mate, as someone married for more than 15 years, you'd know each know in your gut if that were true. As Jack's mate, you'd know that's really why he loves you: because he's never doubted that he does. It might not be what you wanted but it could be enough; it looks like it will have to be.

I 100 percent agree.

[Aloeonatable]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

Thanks, JudyObscure and Shadowfacts for the info regarding benefits for vets. Yes, even if Jack enrolled in college or trade school with the help of the military, he'd still have no income. I sort of figured that he was too young and hadn't been in the military long enough to receive a pension, but I wasn't sure.

My husband was a Viet Nam vet and went back to school after his discharge. He received around $200.00 a month for tuition. He had to work part time as I was finishing my degree the first few months of our marriage. Then I got pregnant and he received about $50.00 a month more when our daughter was born. 

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Guy wears an American Flag tie to a blind date.

And he's passionate about acquisitions and mergers!    Tribeca - you could do much better.

[ShadowFacts]

28 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Does anyone know what aftershow(?) they said Beth is an attorney in?  I don't think they've said it in the show, have they?  Just that she was 'about to go back to work full time'.  I don't doubt for a minute that's the job they'd give her.  Just curious if it's for sure not a rumor.  

I don't know about the aftershow, but in-show they had a scene where Beth wanted Kevin out of her office, and then he moved to the basement.  She asked him to bring her a legal pad out of her office.  Of course a non-lawyer could be using legal pads, but I'm guessing that's what they used to clue us in, if she is in fact a lawyer.