S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[Auntie Anxiety]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

Celeste is well-educated and has options if she wants to get away.  Not to mention she could take Perry to the cleaners financially in a divorce, get exclusive custody, etc.

So much easier said than done. I was married to an emotionally abusive divorce lawyer for over 20 years. Custodial issues weren't really a part of the divorce since our sons were teenagers and had no interest in living with their father, his 19 year old girlfriend and their new baby. At the time, my then-husband didn't want a divorce. He (delusionally) wanted to stay married to me and hoped that I would agree to be "like a grandmother" to his new child because I did such a good job raising our sons (he went on to have three other kids after that). Even though he really didn't want that much to do with our sons, he would become enraged about me not getting his input wrt college applications, etc.  I had to remind him that he was away on his honeymoon cruise while I was standing over our son helping him with his application on the night before it was due (my birthday, no less!). 

Like Maddie, I was left to do it all. I was their taxi, I was their parent, I was the one keeping tabs on them, I was the one who had to make sure they were emotionally okay, I was the one making sure they got their schoolwork done, I was the one worrying about when they'd get home, I was the one having to mend their broken hearts and on and on. I totally resented it but my wise therapist had a good reply when I complained about it all.  I said I was tired of taking care of them and he said, "Who else would you want to do it?" I stopped complaining after that. 

It cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. My ex represented himself and ran up my legal fees just because he could. He'd call my attorney and talk about nonsense for hours. He would obstruct, delay and then accuse me of being an obstructionist. Even after going to court and signing onto the divorce agreement, he viewed the divorce decree as a mere "suggestion" and thought he could pick and choose which parts he wanted to follow. While most people might be intimidated by going to court, he welcomed the opportunity (so he could show off his legal prowess). When I had to sue him time and again for his failure to pay child support and alimony, he would counter sue me for some imagined, phony thing and I was forced to pay legal counsel over and over again for trumped up charges because I would be in contempt of court if I didn't show up at court. There was no way in hell I could have represented myself. He knew the system too well.

Going to court and having to deal with that kind of stress on an ongoing basis was horrendous and I believe it was a contributing factor to me falling ill with cancer (I'm fine now). Even though Celeste is a lawyer, it wouldn't be wise for her to represent herself. She'd have to get an expensive, high-powered lawyer like Perry would get. A man like Perry would never just go on his merry way post divorce. He would HAVE to make his wife pay. He'd do whatever he had to do to hold on to his belief that he was the one calling the shots.

6 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

You are ashamed to admit that you 'picked him'.

 THIS!!! I was so ashamed. My kids were so ashamed. Their father was shacking up with a girl who was only a couple of years older than they were. What an embarrassment! Everyone thought we had a great marriage and that we were a fabulous family. He was an asshole and I put up with it for so many years and I kept thinking "What does that say about me?" Some people treated me like a pariah, worried that divorce was some sort of contagious disease. It was a very dark time (about 5 years from start to finish) of my life.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Auntie Anxiety

[lmsweb]

I just want to say that I'm really encouraged by the conversations happening in this thread about domestic violence and spousal abuse. Anyone else here remember the TV movie "The Burning Bed" with Farrah Fawcett from the 80's? It really put the spotlight on this issue and sparked a lot of movements that led to the toughening up of laws protecting victims.

I'm lucky enough to not have been a direct victim of it myself, and I'm cringing as I'm saying that because no woman (or man) should ever have to say that they're "lucky" enough not to have been abused by their spouse. But I do remember the last time I saw my "father', when I was 12. He showed up for a visitation weekend to get me and my sister, drunk off his ass, and tried to strangle my mother in the doorway of our apartment. I had to call 911. Up to that point, both in the marriage and early separation, there had been lots of yelling and screaming and emotional abuse. But that was the first, and last time, I ever saw him lay hands on my mother. Once was enough. I have raised, or tried to raise, my 16 year old daughter to recognize the signs and to walk away from any partner who physically or emotionally attacks her. And I can only hope that it's enough.

I think that aside from the sheer entertainment value of the series and all the little stories that it's made of, the fact that it has sparked discussions about the subject is fabulous.

Edited March 15, 2017 by lmsweb

[Irlandesa]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

Celeste is well-educated and has options if she wants to get away.  Not to mention she could take Perry to the cleaners financially in a divorce, get exclusive custody, etc.

So many posters have shared their personal experiences which I'm fortunate I don't have.

But as others have said, it's more complicated than she's smart and probably has means.  Smarts won't logic her into undoing the psychological damage years of being with him has wrought.  Means can't buy safety or freedom, especially since they have kids.

Celeste has hid her abuse.  Her friends and acquaintances only see a "perfect" marriage. From what we've seen, Perry's abuse ends just before she ends up with bruises or scars she can't cover up and before she would have to go see a doctor.  If she were to leave, it'd be her word against his.  She'd have to convince a judge that he was abusive and not just throwing abuse at him as she's walking out the door in order to gain the upper hand.  She'd likely lose much of her social circle who either won't believe her or won't want to "choose sides" because it would involve confronting what they're being told against what they were sure they knew. Believing her would be indictment of their own judgment. 

[formerlyfreedom]

We understand that domestic abuse and assault is a highly controversial and fraught topic. To keep this episode topic on track, please take further conversation about personal stories over to the Small Talk topic,. Also, consider before your post that this is a difficult discussion to have on an internet message board and tone can be misread.

Finally, remember to always be respectful and civil when replying to each other. Thank you.

@Athena & @saoirse

[Blissfool]

6 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Since everything happens for a reason in fiction, I wonder about the scene with Jane and Ziggy at the beach where he gets hurt.  

 

I agree (hence, I'm convinced that there's something to that scene where Abigail sees her mom and Ed dancing in the living room). The beach scene...I took it that we were supposed to see that Jane takes on an active mother AND father role with Ziggy (playing catch y'all) and that Ziggy is a sensitive boy. However, after reading comments on here, I can totally see worst-teacher-in-the-world run with the "Ziggy is abused at home" theory.

5 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

 

I could actually picture the teacher at dinner with the Wright's, trying to get Celeste to admit to abuse at the dinner table.  LOL

That IS funny.

"Celeste, tell us who abuses you. If you don't want to say his name, just point to the person."

[Lemons]

11 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Wow! No. Like the poster above said, it covers all bases and they stay for various reasons. A big one is embarrassment.

People in wealthier communities usually get away with thing like domestic violence, child abuse and drug use more so than the poorest communities. Easier to hide things when you live in the suburbs in big houses.

 they also just did a study that showed more black people and Hispanic people are arrested for drug use even though white people consume the most drugs. 

The abuse on the child in the classroom is so weird. I find it hard to believe that the little girl could have someone choke her until she was bruised and now bitten through the skin and she doesn't go screaming to the teacher as soon as it happens. Those are painful wounds. Are these kids able to disappear out of sight for that long?  It looked like an awfully small school. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Lemons

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, JBC344 said:

I don't know why Celeste just couldn't be Austrailian.  It would be a nod to the origin of the book, as well as lend to Celeste's backstory of being isolated from where she came from.  I never understand why characters who don't need to be American have to be.  It's like the concept of "foreigners" or those who have accents just doesn't exist.  Very weird.

I thought she was Australian on the show.  Why do they need to explain where she is from?  She has lived in the US so long maybe her natural accent has faded.

She sounds just like Meg Ryan in To Die For.  

[riverheightsnancy]

40 minutes ago, Lemons said:

The abuse on the child in the classroom is so weird. I find it hard to believe that the little girl could have someone choke her until she was bruised and now bitten through the skin and she doesn't go screaming to the teacher as soon as it happens. Those are painful wounds. Are these kids able to disappear out of sight for that long?  It looked like an awfully small school. 

Really good point. The school would be on burn, if I were the parent. HOW and WHY is this happening on school property? WHERE are the teachers when these things are happening? There is no way that the lowly teacher would be handling this independently. The superintendent would be involved, as well as, the district child psychologist and/or the school counselor. They would all be trying to cover their assess because lawsuit is one step away with parents of means and the school would want to put a stop to it ASAP for the sake of their own reputation. I said it before, but the teacher having the abused child call out another kid in front of everyone would not happen. She has gone rogue and should be fired. 

[mochamajesty]

50 minutes ago, Lemons said:

People in wealthier communities usually get away with thing like domestic violence, child abuse and drug use more so than the poorest communities. Easier to hide things when you live in the suburbs in big houses.

 they also just did a study that showed more black people and Hispanic people are arrested for drug use even though white people consume the most drugs. 

The abuse on the child in the classroom is so weird. I find it hard to believe that the little girl could have someone choke her until she was bruised and now bitten through the skin and she doesn't go screaming to the teacher as soon as it happens. Those are painful wounds. Are these kids able to disappear out of sight for that long?  It looked like an awfully small school. 

The choking also happened during orientation  when there were parents around. Odd time  to choke someone not that there is a right time.

I am taking DV talk to the PTA thread.

[Llywela]

Another small point from this episode that I forgot to mention earlier - when Ed went to see Bonnie and was trying to explain Madeline's insecurity, describing how this person had left her and that person had left her, Bonnie listened quietly and then said, "Everyone's got baggage, Ed." Made me wonder what Bonnie's baggage is. We haven't seen that much of her yet to know her damage, but in this show and after a statement like that, you can bet she has some, buried deep.

[mochamajesty]

18 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Another small point from this episode that I forgot to mention earlier - when Ed went to see Bonnie and was trying to explain Madeline's insecurity, describing how this person had left her and that person had left her, Bonnie listened quietly and then said, "Everyone's got baggage, Ed." Made me wonder what Bonnie's baggage is. We haven't seen that much of her yet to know her damage, but in this show and after a statement like that, you can bet she has some, buried deep.

The fact that she picked Nathan showcases her issues IMO. Who would pick someone like that voluntarily?

Edited March 15, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Llywela]

17 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

The fact that she picked Nathan showcases her issues IMO. Who would pick someone like that voluntarily?

Haha, fair point. But I do wonder what exactly she meant, cause it sounded like one of those statements that'll get picked up again in another episode, so we can look back and go, 'oh, that's what she was talking about'.

then again, it might have just been a throwaway comment to make Ed stop talking about Madeline's issues!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wasn't sure exactly how to interpret Bonnie's comment either. She could have been giving him a generic earth mama statement, as in we're all human, we all have pasts, and we all have baggage. But I also thought that maybe she was trying to tell Ed that Madeline was hurt by Nathan leaving her, which is Madeline's baggage, but that Nathan left because he had his own baggage. The other interpretation I had was that Bonnie was telling Ed, "Look, you came here to try to put the onus of having a peaceful dinner on the two of us because we know that Madeline and Nathan will probably argue due to their baggage. It's a nice gesture to want to keep the peace, but you are basically a stranger to me, despite the fact that you are my husband's ex-wife's new husband. You have no idea how Madeline's actions and her baggage can affect me and my baggage because you don't know what my baggage is. We don't have to be BFFs but you could try getting to know me and understand me as a person, not just your wife's nemesis and maybe you'll see that I'm not the bad guy she wants to make me out to be."

[vibeology]

9 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Really good point. The school would be on burn, if I were the parent. HOW and WHY is this happening on school property? WHERE are the teachers when these things are happening? There is no way that the lowly teacher would be handling this independently. The superintendent would be involved, as well as, the district child psychologist and/or the school counselor. They would all be trying to cover their assess because lawsuit is one step away with parents of means and the school would want to put a stop to it ASAP for the sake of their own reputation. I said it before, but the teacher having the abused child call out another kid in front of everyone would not happen. She has gone rogue and should be fired. 

Renata is a total pill but she's right to be furious about the situation. The idea that this poor girl has been injured more than once without anyone seeing it? Nope. Not okay. Obviously this is the only kindergarten class (since otherwise you think they would have split up Chloe and Skye at Madeline's insistence) but additional resources need to go into the class and another set of eyes needs to be there at all times to keep Amabella safe. Either a teacher's aide or another teacher/vice-principal/principal needs to be there because once isn't okay but twice is absolutely unacceptable.

[Juliegirlj]

Interesting theory that Chloe is the bully. She is manipulative and precocious. It is implied that she runs things at school, and she must know how much her mother dislikes Renata, so perhaps that spilled over to Renata's daughter?! Pretty devious to hurt Annabelle, and then befriend the person Annabelle accused, plus, she is likely intimidated of Chloe and fears being ostracized ( like her party)if she names her. 

[Juliegirlj]

It just dawned on me that Reese Witherspoon and Laura Dean played mother and daughter in Wild!! 

I loved Shailene Woodley in The Descendants, and really loved the movie( good house porn and Hawaii scenes too). Recommend both movies to anyone wanting to see these three in other roles. 

[Llywela]

36 minutes ago, vibeology said:

Renata is a total pill but she's right to be furious about the situation. The idea that this poor girl has been injured more than once without anyone seeing it? Nope. Not okay. Obviously this is the only kindergarten class (since otherwise you think they would have split up Chloe and Skye at Madeline's insistence) but additional resources need to go into the class and another set of eyes needs to be there at all times to keep Amabella safe. Either a teacher's aide or another teacher/vice-principal/principal needs to be there because once isn't okay but twice is absolutely unacceptable.

I thought the point was that Amabella hadn't been harmed in any way in this episode. She was injured during orientation, but nothing had actually happened to her in this episode, the teacher simply noticed that she wasn't joining in a sing-song, spotted Ziggy glancing in her direction, and jumped to the enormous conclusion that he was hurting her - which both Ziggy and Amabella denied.

[Blissfool]

12 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I loved Shailene Woodley in The Descendants, and really loved the movie( good house porn and Hawaii scenes too).

I love this movie!

[MaggieG]

14 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

It just dawned on me that Reese Witherspoon and Laura Dean played mother and daughter in Wild!! 

 

It dawned on me last night that Shailene Woodley and Zoe Kravitz were both in the Divergent series!

[dinkysquid]

I am liking this show! While I patiently wait for Veep, Game of Thrones, Ballers and Silicon Valley this has become my Sunday night must-see. The houses are gorgeous, the views spectacular and the characters are screwed up enough to be interesting. 

Nathan seems like a Grade A asshole and I thought that Ed's little Leering Yoga Show was creepy and pervy so maybe that's why Maddie felt she had to cheat. Had she just had enough of weak, arrogant men because she seems like a real force of nature! And I don't know why she's upset about her daughter leaving home. She was a surly, moody little bitch so good riddance!

I also don't get Jane wanting to have a kid that is the product of a violent and horrific act. Talk about a constant reminder! But that's just MHO. 

Celeste looked so beautiful in that suit but if you're Nicole Kidman, you'd look good in a sack. 

Agree with the comments about Shailene's acting. She's definitely the weakest link here.

[scrb]

20 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

It just dawned on me that Reese Witherspoon and Laura Dean played mother and daughter in Wild!! 

But were they in scenes together?

I thought most of the scenes with LD were her memories of her mother when she was a girl.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

 

22 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

It just dawned on me that Reese Witherspoon and Laura Dean played mother and daughter in Wild!! 

 

It dawned on me last night that Shailene Woodley and Zoe Kravitz were both in the Divergent series!

 

More fun connections (from Net-a-Porter):

Quote

While talking about her new HBO series Big Little Lies, Kidman mentions that she had a history with co-star Zoë Kravtiz. “Well, I knew Zoë because I was engaged to her father. It’s all in the family! I love Lenny; he’s a great guy,” Kidman said.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

It just dawned on me that Reese Witherspoon and Laura Dean played mother and daughter in Wild!! 

I loved Shailene Woodley in The Descendants, and really loved the movie( good house porn and Hawaii scenes too). Recommend both movies to anyone wanting to see these three in other roles. 

Dern played Woodley's mother, too, The Fault in Our Stars.  I guess Dern helped recruit Woodley for this.

https://www.accesshollywood.com/videos/laura-dern-on-helping-recruit-shailene-woodley-for-hbos-big-little-lies/

[Juliegirlj]

I forgot about Nicole Kidman and Lenny Kravitz being together! Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon goin on! Witherspoon and Dern did have scenes together in Wild. Dern is such a versatile actress to be able to pull off such a wide range of characters and ages. Loved her in The Baby Dance, and Dr T and the Women. Also a fan of her parents, Bruce Dern, and Diane Ladd! 

[Mabinogia]

16 hours ago, lmsweb said:

I think that aside from the sheer entertainment value of the series and all the little stories that it's made of, the fact that it has sparked discussions about the subject is fabulous.

OMG yes, this! The show is actually amazing, but the light it is shining on a side of domestic violence we don't often see (that it can, and does, happen to highly successful, wealthy people too) is such a service to the world. I am enlightened by a lot of the discussion we are having here, and can imagine it is happening elsewhere. If seeing someone as smart, beautiful, successful, rich as Celeste falling into the trap of abuse makes just one abused wife realize that she is not a loser, or weak, or stupid for also being a victim, then this show has done a great thing.

It is sad that there are still people who think "well, she could just leave" or "she likes it since she's still there" and hopefully this show delves into just how hard it is to leave and just how manipulative these men really are.

Laura Dern is one of those actresses I don't think about, like seeing her name attached to a project doesn't make me dying to see it, but she's been amazing in anything I have seen her in. She's stealthy good.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Two things: I do think that one of Celeste's twins is the culprit and ends up blowing Celeste's secret when confronted with it. I could see someone, maybe that ridiculous teacher who has no business being in that profession, asking one of the twins in a public forum (like the first accusation against Ziggy) why he did it and the twin saying that he likes Amabella and the way you show a girl that you like her is to hurt her, just like dear old dad does to mom. The secret would be out!

The other thing? Didn't the teacher tell Jane that she doesn't think Ziggy was the one who hurt Amabella after all? Isn't that something the teacher should be sharing with Renata and/or the rest of the parents? 

[loki567]

I think they're really handling the abuse storyline well. I would describe it as they're almost putting the audience in the pov of the abused. Right away we know SOMETHING'S wrong with the Celeste/Perry marriage. And our worst fears are realized  quickly when Perry starts to physically harm her. She threatens to leave him. They go to therapy, where because Alexander Skarsgård is such an attractive and charismatic actor, they suckered me into believing that maybe Perry isn't so bad and maybe the marriage could be saved. I'll even admit to almost believing that maybe Celeste did want to start fights and conflict because of something in her background. And then watching the episode, the deception becomes clear. Perry is a controlling, gaslighting dick and this was never about anything that Celeste has done or deserved to have happened. I think the whole presentation of this storyline is top-notch. I think it could really unfold so well in the context of television, where you have the time to lead the audience through the whole experience. 

Now that I'm starting to become convince that Perry is Jane's rapist and likely killed as a result, I am finding it funny that Reese Witherspoon might have picked the least important character of the leads as her role, considering her producer credit. I agree that a lot of Madeline's storyline is feeling very red herring and the affair in particular feels like they needed to give WItherspoon something to do. Madeline's personality being what it is, I could see her barging into a Perry murder situation to cover up for Jane though. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by loki567

[Auntie Anxiety]

I really hope Jane isn't the perp. What would happen to Ziggy? Who would take care of him?

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

The other thing? Didn't the teacher tell Jane that she doesn't think Ziggy was the one who hurt Amabella after all? Isn't that something the teacher should be sharing with Renata and/or the rest of the parents?

The teacher told Jane that because Ziggy "looked" at the upset Amabella she believed he was still bullying her.  It was ridiculous and a huge leap, but I'm glad Jane went to the child therapist.

[txhorns79]

Quote

They go to therapy, where because Alexander Skarsgård is such an attractive and charismatic actor, they suckered me into believing that maybe Perry isn't so bad and maybe the marriage could be saved. I'll even admit to almost believing that maybe Celeste did want to start fights and conflict because of something in her background. And then watching the episode, the deception becomes clear.

Wasn't the deception already clear?  I had thought that Perry, and to a lesser extent, Celeste, had lied to the therapist during their initial meeting.  I'm pretty sure she had asked if the fights between them had become physical and both of them denied it.  I mean, from what I recall, we already had seen Perry strangle Celeste over some perceived slight before they ever went to therapy.

[riverheightsnancy]

I was thinking about the show and I was wondering about WHO would I be most shocked was dead and by whom?  So, I guess I would be the most shocked if Bonnie was dead by one of the twins. I figure that won't happen, so the teacher dead by Ed would also be way out there, but not likely because I figure that the dead person must be a main character and I would include the kids in that. So, the biggest mystery is who is dead?  If I was a writer, what would be really interesting, plausible, yet tragic? Amabelle, killing Celeste's husband (what is his name) because she sees him hurting Celeste and perhaps Ziggy gives her the gun to "protect" herself from the "bully". Perhaps she gets reinforced by her mom that no one should put their hands on you and that you "fight" back. Of course, it could be taken too literally. So if this were true, it would be tragic because the kids that may have been bullying her, are now fatherless because of his own actions. Celeste will also feel responsible for not leaving and now the husband is dead (even though he deserves it).  Just spit-balling, probably not even in the ballpark. 

[Guest]

I think we can rule out a gun death based on the injuries list the cops so oddly spelled out in press conference style.  

I'm not a big fan of the DV story but probably because I heard how the book does it and it sounds like it's much better.  But that's common for books vs tv, too.   They can let us in the peoples' heads better without clunky exposition.  I'm guessing Celeste will open up to the therapist and it'll get better then, too.  

[stillshimpy]

7 hours ago, vibeology said:

Renata is a total pill but she's right to be furious about the situation. The idea that this poor girl has been injured more than once without anyone seeing it? Nope. Not okay.

 

I've been wondering, is it possible that Amabella is doing these things to herself?  The psychologist said that she felt Ziggy was being bullied.  We saw him staring at Amabella in what seemed an unfriendly way but I don't think Ziggy is doing this.  The previews show Amabella having a bite mark which would be much more difficult to inflict on herself.  

Mind you, I have no idea, whatsoever why she might be doing that and I may very well be completely off base.  It's just so freaking weird that this stuff is going down in a school setting and there are no witnesses.  I truly can't think of reason she would do that but it almost seems more plausible that she's doing these things to herself in the girls bathroom than being strangled and bitten in the open and no one seeing it.  

[nara]

11 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I've been wondering, is it possible that Amabella is doing these things to herself?  The psychologist said that she felt Ziggy was being bullied.  We saw him staring at Amabella in what seemed an unfriendly way but I don't think Ziggy is doing this.  The previews show Amabella having a bite mark which would be much more difficult to inflict on herself.  

Mind you, I have no idea, whatsoever why she might be doing that and I may very well be completely off base.  It's just so freaking weird that this stuff is going down in a school setting and there are no witnesses.  I truly can't think of reason she would do that but it almost seems more plausible that she's doing these things to herself in the girls bathroom than being strangled and bitten in the open and no one seeing it.  

Plot twist -- the teacher is the one who is bullying her! ;)

[stillshimpy]

3 minutes ago, nara said:

Plot twist -- the teacher is the one who is bullying her! ;)

Hee!! Perhaps in the ultimate plot twist the real culprits will turn out to be a Felt Gang formed by the Avenue Q Puppets, out terrorizing the town.  

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, nara said:

Plot twist -- the teacher is the one who is bullying her! ;)

Well, she certainly came close in the scene were she made Amabella point to her abuser. haha

Whoever it turns out to be, I hope it makes sense. I don't want this show to devolve and have a twist just for the sake of a twist.

So far it makes the most sense, to me, to be either one of the twins or it is Ziggy. I adore Ziggy so I hope it is not him. If it is one of the twins, I could see that as the catalyst that finally makes Celeste leave. So long as she believes she is the only victim she can convince herself that Perry's lies are true (that she wants it, that it's her fault for not telling him every detail of her life) but if she finally sees that it is having a bad effect on her boys I think that will be the wake up call she needs. Whoever it is, I hope they go to that awesome child therapist because she handled the "is Ziggy a bully" thing beautifully.

[Broderbits]

18 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

She sounds just like Meg Ryan in To Die For.  

Did you mean that when she was in To Die For, Nicole Kidman sounded like Meg Ryan? Because Ryan was not in that movie.

[scrb]

If Perry turned out to be the date-rapist, that would be a plot gimmick.

The victim befriends the wife of the rapist unwittingly and there's a climactic reveal?

If he had those tendencies, he'd continue with them, rather than just abuse Celeste.

OTOH, he does take a lot of business trips so he could be still doing it off-camera.

If the reveal is that Jane sees the bottom of one of Perry's shoes, it would be the biggest eye roll in history.

Edited March 15, 2017 by scrb

[formerlyfreedom]

The Big Little Talk with Speculation without Spoilers topic might be a better spot for some of this discussion about what might happen. Thank you.

[vixenbynight]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Wasn't the deception already clear?  I had thought that Perry, and to a lesser extent, Celeste, had lied to the therapist during their initial meeting.  I'm pretty sure she had asked if the fights between them had become physical and both of them denied it.  I mean, from what I recall, we already had seen Perry strangle Celeste over some perceived slight before they ever went to therapy.

It was very clear to me that both Perry and Celeste kept things that clearly affect their marriage from the therapist. Remember, this is the second therapist that they've seen, so the series has established background of someone, probably Celeste sensing something is wrong in how they interact in their marriage.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

OMG yes, this! The show is actually amazing, but the light it is shining on a side of domestic violence we don't often see (that it can, and does, happen to highly successful, wealthy people too) is such a service to the world. I am enlightened by a lot of the discussion we are having here, and can imagine it is happening elsewhere. If seeing someone as smart, beautiful, successful, rich as Celeste falling into the trap of abuse makes just one abused wife realize that she is not a loser, or weak, or stupid for also being a victim, then this show has done a great thing.

It is sad that there are still people who think "well, she could just leave" or "she likes it since she's still there" and hopefully this show delves into just how hard it is to leave and just how manipulative these men really are.

Coincidentally, just this week there was a story about a Brazilian soccer star who ordered the murder of his ex-girlfriend (he convinced his current girlfriend, his ex-wife, his cousin, and several other people including a former policeman to kidnap his ex-girlfriend, torture her, kill her, and then feed her body parts to dogs to hide the evidence - all because she dared to tell him that he was the father of her child. Technically he wasn't the one who murdered her but he was convicted for his role in her death and then freed on a technicality and upon his release, he was signed by a soccer team). I found this part parallel to some of the things that have been discussed about Celeste:
 

Quote

Teresa Cristina Cabral, a state judge in Brazil who works on domestic violence training and education initiatives, notes that when Bruno de Souza's case was first unfolding some people were critical of Samudio, the murdered woman, for having been Souza's lover in the first place.

To me, that's similar to blaming rape victims for drinking too much or what they were wearing instead of putting the blame on the rapist. Why is the onus on Celeste instead of Perry?

[mochamajesty]

23 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Coincidentally, just this week there was a story about a Brazilian soccer star who ordered the murder of his ex-girlfriend (he convinced his current girlfriend, his ex-wife, his cousin, and several other people including a former policeman to kidnap his ex-girlfriend, torture her, kill her, and then feed her body parts to dogs to hide the evidence - all because she dared to tell him that he was the father of her child. Technically he wasn't the one who murdered her but he was convicted for his role in her death and then freed on a technicality and upon his release, he was signed by a soccer team). I found this part parallel to some of the things that have been discussed about Celeste:
 

To me, that's similar to blaming rape victims for drinking too much or what they were wearing instead of putting the blame on the rapist. Why is the onus on Celeste instead of Perry?

All good questions.  I think that people blame Celeste because if it can happen to Celeste it can happen to them. People do  not want to believe that  it can happen to lawyers or to women from high socio-economic groups because they are in danger too.

The onus has to be on Celeste because if she can stop the abuse  so can they. While i can understand the thought process, there is no excuse for it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by mochamajesty

[jeansheridan]

13 hours ago, Broderbits said:

Did you mean that when she was in To Die For, Nicole Kidman sounded like Meg Ryan? Because Ryan was not in that movie.

Yes that's what I meant.  I always thought she was doing a parody of Ryan's voice.  Or maybe their pitch is the same.  

[tennisgurl]

I think the Celeste plot is one of the best things the show has going, which is saying something because I enjoy all of the main plots in the show. Her story has started a lot of conversations about domestic abuse and how it can affect anyone, in any part of the social sphere, not just the stereotypical white trash women completely cowed by her drunk husband with a wife beater on and serious meth mouth. Wealthy, accomplished people can have this happen to them too.

As for Perry being the rapist? Seems a little Lifetime to me. "He isn't JUST abusing his wife, he's raping random young women! And he kicks puppies while on his business trips!" Not that I don't buy he might do it (he wants control, and if he felt like Celeste wasn't under his thumb enough, I can totally see him turning to sexual assaults to show his power over someone), I just think its kind of a big coincidence that our local wife beater is also the rapist of the women who it JUST SO HAPPENS to have befriended his victim/wife several years later. I'm sure the rapist will be someone we know though. My money is still on Renettas husband. He was established as being rather skeevy, and he is a minor enough character not to stand out or get to know him very well, but not SO minor that him being guilty feels random.

Edited March 16, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

And he kicks puppies while on his business trips

Oh, he totally does! I think he schedules these trips just so he can kick puppies and steal candy from babies.

I think Perry as rapist will work if Jane came to Monterey to find her rapist. Like, she had some kind of lead that led her there. I feel like this is the case, but I might be making that up. But yeah, if she just happened to move to the town her rapist lives in that would be more of a stretch than her being his wife's friend. My other option would be Nathan. I feel like they are rolling out his issues a little slower than Perry. They aren't identical but more physically alike than, say, Ed. It would be surprising but not in an unbelievable way to me. But my money is still on Perry because I'm to the point of blaming him for everything bad ever. He is that disgusting to me.

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure he killed Jack Pearson.  

[tennisgurl]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm pretty sure he killed Jack Pearson.  

He also shot JR!

[Atlanta]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

He also shot JR!

You owe me a new keyboard. I spewed Diet Coke all over it. LOLz

[QuinnM]

Quote

He also shot JR!

Spoiler Alert!  Spoiler Alert!

[Lemons]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

As for Perry being the rapist? Seems a little Lifetime to me. "He isn't JUST abusing his wife, he's raping random young women! random.

They showed Perry having built up rage so strong in the bathroom that he could barely contain it when his child came up and stopped him from taking it out on Celeste.  It was still there when he left for work. 

In the clip at the hotel room, they showed two people who just met, seemed to like each other.  Jane willingly went into a hotel room with him.  And instead of taking the next step with what appeared to be a willing partner, he attacked her.  It was like he had this rage that he needed to unload, so he took it out on Jane. 

Coincidence?  Maybe.