S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Nathan invites Madeline and Ed to a couples' dinner to discuss a "parenting paradigm" for Abigail. Celeste prepares for a city-council meeting about Madeline's play, and bristles at Perry's concerns about her returning to work. Jane meets with Ms. Barnes, Ziggy's teacher, who suggests her son be medically evaluated in light of further evidence of classroom bullying. While Madeline is confronted by a skeleton from her past, her internet sleuthing reveals a key player from Jane's past instead.

Promo:

[Cardie]

This title sounds like a precis of a possible murder scenario!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip:

[mojoween]

I feel like if you have your windows and doors open like Madeline does all the time your house would be sticky with salt residue everywhere.

However ew Madeline you're a cheater gross.  Losing respect for you now.

I really hate that teacher.

Ok I take back everything I said about Perry last week.  It's now terrifying how he feels like everything going on in Celeste's life is something she is keeping from him on purpose.

Jane's relief in the psychologist's office made me tear up.

[Primetimer]

And how much time is the show going to spend on this stupid dinner? Eve Batey has questions!

View the full article

[CleoCaesar]

Very glad to see that any ambiguity about poor Perry's insecurity is being washed away. The guy is 100% about control and power. Full stop.

However I will say that I have a hard time feeling unequivocal sympathy for Celeste. Not only is she voluntarily staying (she doesn't seem completely mentally beaten down by Perry, lacking any free will), she's keeping 2 innocent kids in an abusive household.

I read the book years ago and don't remember much (don't worry, I'd never spoil it) but

Spoiler

I don't remember Madeline being a cheater. Maybe I blocked it out, or it was a show addition.

The only actress not doing anything for me is Shailene Woodley. She seems so blank and not on purpose.

Edited March 13, 2017 by saoirse
Spoiler tag added

[archer1267]

Quote

I really hate that teacher.

I do too! I think she is setting Ziggy up as a scapegoat, but is doing it reluctantly. She knows someone's going to have to be blamed for Ammabella's behavior, and the girl's parents are the type that would want to ruin the teacher's career if they thought something happened on her watch. So, who's the teacher going to finger? Another rich kid, or the father-less boy who just moved to town and doesn't fit in? That turned my stomach.

Why do I think it's hilarious when Reese Witherspoon cusses up a storm? 

[mochamajesty]

I will refrain from saying "I told you so" about Perry.

How awesome was Celeste's therapy outfit?

*Sigh* Oh, Madeline.  How I wanted to root for you.  And how stupid of Joseph(?) to kiss her out in public.

Nathan is a douche, but I am getting Stealth Bitch vibes from his other half.

That teacher is just...there are no words for how incompetent this woman is.  Various characters mentioned how awesome the school system is - I need some receipts. If this teacher is an example of the staff, they need to be in a private school.

Ed is a Creeper. Making inappropriate comments during his visit to Bonnie, ogling that lady as he was leaving. Is it a stretch to believe that he was ogling Abigail?

Edited March 13, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Atlanta]

Was this epi trying to set a record for F-bombs? Your desperation to be edgy is showing. Kelley is ruining these characters.

[Gem 10]

I don't care how good looking Perry is .. He needs lots of help.  So does Celeste for staying with him.  So, he wants another baby so she can stay home another six years and not work at something she really loves;  her job.   Perry is a pain in the butt with his "We have to have a conversation".  My husband of many, many years runs away when I want to have a conversation, ha ha.  

True colors coming from Nathan when talking to Bonnie at the table drinking beer.  Looks like there's going to be a little trouble in the household.

Wow!  Celeste in that suit at the meeting.  Beautiful!   Did anyone see the lines on the top of Maddys forehead?  Needs some more Botox up there .. Very noticeable.  Smooth up to that point.

They are really playing up the Ziggy bullying thing.  Is it one of the twins or is Arabella lying?   Hope it's not Ziggy.  I'm halfway through the book.  Will hate to see the series and book end.

[susannot]

I have never liked Nicole better than in her lawyer persona advocating for Avenue Q.  I understand where she was coming from, as kicking ass as a lawyer is absolutely a great feeling if you're a female lawyer up against a male opponent.  She was up against the Mayor and Renata and she was great.  As Maddie said she looked like a different person.  She was a different person.  I cannot believe that new person(who was there all along) will be the bullied victim of her psycho husband any longer.

That teacher should be fired.

Also, that little actor playing Ziggy is adorable, heartbreaking, and really talented.

Edited March 13, 2017 by susannot

[acid burn]

22 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Ed is a Creeper. Making inappropriate comments during his visit to Bonnie, ogling that lady as he was leaving. Is it a stretch to believe that he was ogling Abigail?

Yeah, I wasn't in the "Ed is ogling Abigail" camp last week but they really telegraphed his sketchiness with the "I love a sweaty woman" comments, etc., this week.

Dammit, D-Bag. I already can't objectify A.Skars without feeling completely inappropriate ... and now I have a feeling I'm about to get a hate-on for you, too. Your cheating wife might be carrying your balls around town in a Birkin bag but that doesn't give you a license to skeeze.

Edited March 13, 2017 by acid burn

[kjwillis93]

A few quick thoughts: 

Perry is infuriating. His absolute need for control in his relationship with Celeste is difficult to watch. Between the constant whines that Celeste is keeping things from him, demands to know everything at all times, and a physical abuse fetish - he is an insufferable shell of a man. 

As for Ed, I really do feel as though all of this "creepy" behavior is a major red herring. I'm not sure he's behind the murder-mystery. 

But when it comes to Amabella, I am genuinely confused as to who is behind the bullying. What are some of your predictions? (And don't spoil anything if you have read the book). 

[nara]

On one hand, I am enjoying each episode of the show.  On the other hand, I want it to be over so we know who did what to whom.  AAAAARGH!  Great show! In the absence of Game of Thrones and Outlander, this is my only appointment television.

I thought that "Edvis" Presley was awesome.  Ed seems like a great sport and Madeline was all blasé about it.  I loved him and Chloe together too.  In fact, I think that both Chloe and Ziggy showed that the kids > parents on this show.

Surprised but not surprised by Madeline's affair.  Not surprised that it happened but I was surprised by the frequency.  I guessed that her passionate fight for the show might make the community theater guy fall in love with her, but I didn't expect it to be returned. This may be unfair, but until that reveal I was thinking that Ed was being unfairly painted as a pervert.  When I realized that Madeline was sleeping with the community theater guy but not Ed, it immediately made me wonder if her instincts were keeping her away from her husband.  That's probably completely unfair, but it was the very first impression I had.  (But I'm not sure if I would feel that way if I hadn't read people's suspicions of him in this forum.)

However, I do think that Madeline is a complete jerk for having an affair.  I wonder if guilt is behind her self righteous manner.  I also now wonder how much of her fight for Avenue Q is about "fighting Renata" and how much is about "preserving her hot affair".  Clearly, very little of it is actually about artistic expression in general or Avenue Q specifically.

I really liked the reveal that both Celeste and Madeline are not satisfied by being moms 100% of the time.  Not a mom myself, but I understand that that's the dirty secret that mothers are often ashamed to admit for fear of being judged.  

Did Abby leave home with alcohol or was Nathan paranoid?  I couldn't tell, so I don't know if Bonnie was being too permissive, or if she's possibly the only normal person in town.  

By the way, what's with Nathan's desire to pick a fight with Ed?  Personally, I think he's all talk, and despite being bigger than Ed, he would back down quickly if it actually came to blows.  That big talk about punching Ed makes me wonder if he's the rapist--a desire to make himself the big man, but wouldn't actually fight someone his size...

In case anyone wasn't sure, that teacher is clearly prejudiced against Ziggy.  Amabella flat out said that they were friends and the teacher ignored what she aid and immediately jumped to the conclusion that he was the one bullying her.  Maybe the teacher's the one who gets murdered by angry parents!  And by the way, why didn't she suggest Amabella see a psychiatrist who could help her discuss what was happening to her? No, let's focus on demonizing the outsider.

I think this was a good episode for the shrinks.  Ziggy's therapist recognizing that he's a nice kid, but potentially being bullied was right on.  She was kind to immediately address Jane's fears. And I loved the way Celeste's therapist's expression changed when she realized how controlling Perry is.  I hope she's able to make Celeste see the light.  

And Perry thought he was being so subtle when he suggested a new baby after recognizing that Celeste might want to go back to work.  You're so obvious, jerk!

[Gem 10]

33 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I feel like if you have your windows and doors open like Madeline does all the time your house would be sticky with salt residue everywhere.

However ew Madeline you're a cheater gross.  Losing respect for you now.

I really hate that teacher.

Ok I take back everything I said about Perry last week.  It's now terrifying how he feels like everything going on in Celeste's life is something she is keeping from him on purpose.

Jane's relief in the psychologist's office made me tear up.

Hate that teacher too.  They come out of school, get a job teaching, and then think they are qualified psychologists.   My youngest had a teacher like that in kindergarten who had practically every mother in the class up to school about their kid.  Turns out she was nuts and they fired her. 

[mochamajesty]

12 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

I don't care how good looking Perry is .. He needs lots of help.  So does Celeste for staying with him.  So, he wants another baby so she can stay home another six years and not work at something she really loves;  her job.   Perry is a pain in the butt with his "We have to have a conversation".  My husband of many, many years runs away when I want to have a conversation, ha ha.  

True colors coming from Nathan when talking to Bonnie at the table drinking beer.  Looks like there's going to be a little trouble in the household.

Wow!  Celeste in that suit at the meeting.  Beautiful!   Did anyone see the lines on the top of Maddys forehead?  Needs some more Botox up there .. Very noticeable.  Smooth up to that point.

They are really playing up the Ziggy bullying thing.  Is it one of the twins or is Arabella lying?   Hope it's not Ziggy.  I'm halfway through the book.  Will hate to see the series and book end.

 

Oh,  honey.

Perry doesn't actually want another kid. He is barely home for the two that he has.

He doesn't want Celeste to work. First, he tried guilt ('You couldn't have a baby because you were so stressed from working'). That didn't work. His next tactic was to try to convince her that it was a good idea to have another baby  so of course she can't work now. 

[acid burn]

15 minutes ago, kjwillis93 said:

As for Ed, I really do feel as though all of this "creepy" behavior is a major red herring. I'm not sure he's behind the murder-mystery. 

But when it comes to Amabella, I am genuinely confused as to who is behind the bullying. What are some of your predictions? (And don't spoil anything if you have read the book). 

I'm in agreement that the douchey behavior is a red herring. I just didn't want to dislike Ed. 

My theory (non-book reader, not spoiled, but I will put it in spoiler tags on the off-chance I'm right) is that

Spoiler

One of Celeste and Perry's twins is the bully and either Amabella is scared of said kid so she fingered Ziggy or she was confused because they're all blond. I also think Perry is Jane's rapist/Ziggy's father and maybe it's supposed to point out that all the boys vaguely resemble each other, although if that is actually the case they've telegraphed the hell out of it. As far as the murder itself goes, I have absolutely no idea who dies or whodunnit. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by acid burn

[nara]

7 minutes ago, kjwillis93 said:

As for Ed, I really do feel as though all of this "creepy" behavior is a major red herring. I'm not sure he's behind the murder-mystery. 

But when it comes to Amabella, I am genuinely confused as to who is behind the bullying. What are some of your predictions? (And don't spoil anything if you have read the book). 

It's possible that Ed is just horny from not being able to have sex with his wife.  That may be leading to some inappropriate stares and comments, but may not be indicative of bigger issues.  (I'm so confused about him.)

Re: Amabella's bullying, the twins are the most obvious option.  Chloe is another possibility.  If Abby is anxious at home, she could be too.  Whereas Abby is old enough to recognize and express her feelings, Chloe might express them more violently.  I hope not, because I really like her (and her hair flip in the credits). However, I kinda want it to be Skye (because Nathan and Bonnie annoy me -- no fault of the actors) or Renata herself.  Speaking of the twins, I forgot to mention in my comment upthread that I was terrified that Perry was going to beat one or both for crunching cereal too loud... :(

[susannot]

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

[stanleyk]

That teacher is the goddamn worst. She certainly has no idea of an appropriate way to get information from a small child. Even with her leading questions and suggestions, Amabella still wouldn't turn on Ziggy. As suggested above, the right course of action would have been to go to Amabella's parents and say she's concerned about her behavior (without implying Ziggy has anything to do with it).

I'm sticking with my opinion that Ed is not creepy. He's awkward, sure. He's a dork and says dorky things. It's possible my view is too colored by Parks and Rec-version Adam Scott, but I don't see anything creepy about him. And even if he's taking a look at sweaty women doing yoga...that's a far cry from molesting his step-daughter. Of course, I may eat my words, but I'm not going to believe he's behind anything nefarious until I'm forced to.

I was pleased to see Celeste's therapist cotton on real quick to what was going on, and I hope Celeste is able to get some perspective from her. And I was glad to see her and Madeline admit to each other than being a mother is not always satisfying. The portrayal of motherhood (in pop culture, in the media, by some mothers themselves) is so overwrought, so sanctified that it's hugely refreshing to see it portrayed as it is for many people: one aspect of who they are, rather than the sum total.

[nara]

Just now, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

I don't know about Celeste (since I haven't read the book), but here are a few theories:

1.  She had a previous husband/lover who left her for a younger woman because she was too career focused and she jumped at the chance to show she could be not obsessed with her career.

2.  She's been told all her life that she's an icicle queen and responded to Perry, who "treats her like a passionate woman".

3.  She thinks she deserves to be ill-treated due to daddy issues.

[mochamajesty]

46 minutes ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

 

 

 

You remember how sweet and charming Perry was when Madeline was over?  That was the Perry that Celeste fell in love with. That is the face that he shows to the world. Until its too late.

Perry didn't beat Celeste on the first date.  It was little things at first - things that, during that first flush of love, she let slide. Then, over time, it escalated.

Also, Celeste may like the lifestyle and not want to give it up. She may want the picture that they show to the world to actually become reality.

The ignorance surrounding abuse is frightening - and it is what abusers count on.

Edited March 13, 2017 by mochamajesty

[stanleyk]

6 minutes ago, nara said:

Re: Amabella's bullying, the twins are the most obvious option.  Chloe is another possibility.  If Abby is anxious at home, she could be too.  Whereas Abby is old enough to recognize and express her feelings, Chloe might express them more violently.  I hope not, because I really like her (and her hair flip in the credits). However, I kinda want it to be Skye (because Nathan and Bonnie annoy me -- no fault of the actors) or Renata herself.  Speaking of the twins, I forgot to mention in my comment upthread that I was terrified that Perry was going to beat one or both for crunching cereal too loud... :(

I think it has to be one of the kids, right, since the original injury happened during school (again...this school is terrible)? I guess it's possible it was only noticed during school, in which case it could be Renata or her husband. But if we have to pick among the kids, the twins are indeed the obvious choice.

5 minutes ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

I'm not sure what being a lawyer has to do with it. Women in all kinds of situations, from all walks of life, can find themselves in abusive relationships. Women who are lawyers don't have immunity to the reality of psychology and human relationships, no matter how toxic.

[Snickerdoodle]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

I read the book years ago and don't remember much (don't worry, I'd never spoil it) but

Spoiler

I don't remember Madeline being a cheater. Maybe I blocked it out, or it was a show addition.

The only actress not doing anything for me is Shailene Woodley. She seems so blank and not on purpose.

I don't remember

Spoiler

Maddie being a cheater either.  But I could be wrong.

 

I agree about Shailene.  I get really wrapped up in the story but when she comes on the screen it takes me out of it.  It's like she's just reading her lines.  The rest of the show is really well done.

Edited March 13, 2017 by saoirse
Spoiler tag added

[susannot]

3 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I'm not sure what being a lawyer has to do with it. Women in all kinds of situations, from all walks of life, can find themselves in abusive relationships. Women who are lawyers don't have immunity to the reality of psychology and human relationships, no matter how toxic.

True.  But women who go to law school, and women who succeed as lawyers, tend to be loud, ballsy, and aggressive.  I don't know a single woman like Celeste.

[nara]

Just now, susannot said:

True.  But women who go to law school, and women who succeed as lawyers, tend to be loud, ballsy, and aggressive.  I don't know a single woman like Celeste.

On the other hand, it's probably especially difficult for women like that to admit (to themselves or others) that they are in an abusive situation.  

I don't think we know how long it's been since the abuse started.  Getting her to leave her job may have been an isolation tactic or maybe he took advantage of the fact she was already isolated by being a stay at home mom to try to control her.  

[lmsweb]

23 minutes ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

I'm confused....why do you find it unrealistic?

[Razzberry]

I wanna see the therapist tear Perry a new asshole, that teacher fired, and Jane's flashbacks to stop.  That's just for starters.

[mochamajesty]

14 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

I'm confused....why do you find it unrealistic?

Apparently,  lawyers have super-powers that protect them from spousal abuse.

I actually find Perry totally realistic. And Skarsgaard is killing it. He is not over-playing it. He can go from charming to menacing on a dime.

Yep, killing it.

Edited to add:

I am rewatching the first scene with Celeste and Perry in the (fabulous!) kitchen. When Perry walks into the room, I tense.  I am waiting for...something. A glare. A question that has no right answer.  Skarsgaard has me walking on eggshells, that's how good he is.

Edited March 13, 2017 by mochamajesty
prevent is not protect

[CleoCaesar]

50 minutes ago, susannot said:

Also, that little actor playing Ziggy is adorable, heartbreaking, and really talented.

Agreed 100%. He's a real cutie and has a shy sweetness to him and just seems like a real kid. Child actors can be hit or miss, but they really nailed Ziggy's casting.

[stanleyk]

5 minutes ago, susannot said:

True.  But women who go to law school, and women who succeed as lawyers, tend to be loud, ballsy, and aggressive.  I don't know a single woman like Celeste.

First, having a public or professional appearance of being "loud, ballsy and aggressive" does not preclude being in an abusive relationship at home; as mochamajesty points out, it's hard to know what goes on behind closed doors. I'm sure Celeste's friends would never believe she's being abused. Second, I'm also a lawyer and a woman, and saying all successful women lawyers are a certain type is a very broad (and based on my experience, not particularly accurate) generalization. Even if one's job were predictive of one's likelihood of being abused, there is no one type of personality for women lawyers.

[Gem 10]

32 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I wanna see the therapist tear Perry a new asshole, that teacher fired, and Jane's flashbacks to stop.  That's just for starters.

YES !   Hysterical.  I'm with you.

[lmsweb]

I'm actually enjoying Skarsgard so much in this that I've gone back to re-watch Generation Kill, which was actually the first thing I remember seeing him in, I think just before he was in True Blood (it was the same year, but I saw him in GK before I got hooked on True Blood).

On the kid actors, I love the little girl who plays Chloe. That whole line "You causing trouble again, woman?" from episode 2 I think cracks me up every time I even think about it.
 

[CofCinci]

I'm so disappointed in Maddie.  Ed was a little too much with the gawking but he seems like a "I can look but I won't touch" type. 

[Saint76]

46 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

 

You remember how sweet and charming Perry was when Madeline was over?  That was the Perry that Celeste fell in love with. That is the face that he shows to the world. Until its too late.

Perry didn't beat Celeste on the first date.  It was little things at first - things that, during that first flush of love, she let slide. Then, over time, it escalated.

Also, Celeste may like the lifestyle and not want to give it up. She may want the picture that they show to the world to actually become reality.

The ignorance surrounding abuse is frightening - and it is what abusers count on.

Is there any chance that Perry is Ziggys Dad?  I don't think Perry and Jane have met face to face?  If I am someone tell me I am wrong but it could be Perry that raped Jane?   She said she needed to hear his voice....... Just a thought.  I am probably wrong and it is the Saxon dude but Perry could have used an alias.  

[formerlyfreedom]

Please remember to spoiler tag ANY reference to the book in the episode topics (even if it's "I don't remember X in the book). Thank you!

[bubble sparkly]

I wonder if Abby found out about Maddy's affair with the director a year ago, which started off all the tension between them? Abby might not have wanted to tell Maddy she knew, and the resentment has been silently building. It would explain the the odd look she gave Maddy/Ed a few eps ago (glad that they made up so home life was stable, but feeling a bit of pity for Ed and apprehension that the affair will eventually come out). Plus, it may explain why she wanted to leave and why she doesn't seem mad at Nathan (probably thinks it is hypocritical for Maddy to call him a bad husband / father).

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, archer1267 said:

I do too! I think she is setting Ziggy up as a scapegoat, but is doing it reluctantly. She knows someone's going to have to be blamed for Ammabella's behavior, and the girl's parents are the type that would want to ruin the teacher's career if they thought something happened on her watch. So, who's the teacher going to finger? Another rich kid, or the father-less boy who just moved to town and doesn't fit in? That turned my stomach.

That's a terrific observation.  Even though it's a public school, those parents have enough money and influence to pressure the school.

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

Ed is a Creeper. Making inappropriate comments during his visit to Bonnie, ogling that lady as he was leaving. Is it a stretch to believe that he was ogling Abigail?

Last week I thought that some of the choices hinted at something going on between Ed and Abigail but none of the choices this week made me think this.  That's not to say I've disregarded my opinions of last week but this week's show of being attracted to adult women isn't the same thing as being attracted to teenagers.  Ed was inappropriate in what he said to Bonnie but I'm not ready to diagnose him as a total creeper yet.  It was a cringe inducing moment but when he looked at the other woman...eh. I'm a bit torn on that moment.  She didn't see it and checking out people does happen.

20 minutes ago, susannot said:

I have to admit I do not understand Nicole's character. I'm hoping someone can explain it to me. I am a lawyer and have lots of female lawyer friends.  Literally not a single one married a good looking abuser who forbade them to work as lawyers.  The female lawyer friends I have had for my entire life would have recoiled in horror over marrying a man like that, good looking be damned.  I realize, dramatic license, but still, find very unrealistic.

We hear "grooming" associated with child abuse quite a bit but it can also happen in abusive adult relationships.  Abuse doesn't always start from day one.  In fact, in many cases it doesn't become physical until the woman is pregnant and more "trapped."  What likely happened is that Celeste fell for the charming Perry we saw with Madeline in this episode and was made to feel like a million bucks by the Perry we saw in the first episode who seemed to be insatiably in love with his wife before we got hints of the abuse.  And in those happy moments, Perry likely started gaslighting and psychologically breaking down his victim to make her question her own judgment.  We see him do it in this episode where he'll pick something that he'll feign hurt she didn't discuss with him first.  She probably thought she's in love with this guy who otherwise treats her well so perhaps she should have told him. It just keeps growing.

He also isolated her.  In the last therapy session, she mentioned she gave up her job, friends and family to come with him to Monterray.  In this episode's session, she mentions he doesn't like her to have too many friends. So not only is slowly redefining her normal, he takes her away from people who love her who could see the changes and address those with her.  And remember, he didn't demand she give up her job because he wanted her to. He likely knew he couldn't just tell her to quit so when she didn't get pregnant immediately, he seized on that opportunity to suggest he quit her job to remove that stress from her life.  It wasn't "for him" but "for their family."

Abuse doesn't always have a public face.  In fact, people who abuse have an incredible talent for hitting in areas that can easily be covered up so people don't know.  And not all abuse victims are stay-at-home moms.  There are plenty who have no problem holding down a job or being the life of the party or being aggressive.  Fictional portrayals of abuse victims tend to have narrow depictions of what it looks like.  Sometimes you know.  Many times you don't. 

[lmsweb]

One thing I really noticed this episode is that Nathan is really not interested in having a relationship with Abby. He made that pretty clear when he was ranting at Maddie about all the "fucking hoops he has to jump through for his wife again" or however he phrased it. Bonnie is the one who is trying to create a relationship between Nathan and Abby, and I really can't fault her intentions in that.

Ed has never skeeved me out in this show until tonight, and it has nothing to do with Abby or eyeballing the other women (which, let's face it, pretty much any straight man with a pulse is going to eyeball someone who looks like Zoe Kravitz). It was when he and Maddy were talking in the kitchen and he asked her what was wrong, and then said something like "Tell me. I'll make it all better baby". Not sure if it was the delivery of the line, but it really came out just....wrong. I actually cringed when he said it.

I have never cared for Shailene Woodley, she has always struck me as a B List Jennifer Lawrence. Having read the book before, and re-reading parts of it now, I can easily picture most of the actors in their parts in the book. Not Shailene though.

[OldButHappy]

I'm really enjoying this series - the acting, production, and story are so much better than most television dramas...very compelling.

I volunteered at a woman's shelter.  Having been raised in a non-violent family, the most shocking thing for me was how D.V.  cuts across all income/social class lines.  Prior to working with victims, I assumed that the stresses of poverty were the primary drivers of violence in the home.  I was very wrong - it's about control, and it could happen to just about anyone.  The worst offenders can hide their violence for a long time, and are very dangerous people.  While it's hard for most of us to imagine living with someone who you know can, and likely will, kill you if you leave him, it's a tough reality for women stuck in that situation. 

I've been thinking that Ziggy was an innocent scapegoat...then, tonight, as Jane was in the child psychologist's waiting room, she had some very quick flashbacks...I  had to watch it on the computer to actually see the image...and it doesn't look like Amabelle..so I'm thinking that Jane is remembering a time, prior to this story, when Ziggy had shown some disturbing behavior toward another child... If you have HBO Go, the flashback is at 43:38 and 43:39

Here's the flashback image:

Edited March 13, 2017 by OldButHappy
uploaded image

[Guest]

I've seen enough of Celeste and Perry having sex.  Seriously, what is the obsession?  Is it a 50 shades thing?  They're not hot or interesting to me.  I don't care about the abuse plot.  Neither actor is selling it for me.

And Kidman seems to be barely trying to do an American dialect anymore.  And I never notice native dialects.  And she was looking a bit joker-ish in that scene in the sun.  

I did find Ed skeevy leering at the yoga(?) class and his following comments.  And I see why Maddie is less than turned on.  

Nathan still doesn't bother me.  I think he's trying to overcompensate for lost time with Abby.  And he's tired of catering to the whims of nutty moms.  

I'm glad I have the book on hold from the library because I'm getting bored with this and don't want to wait 3 more weeks or whatever it is to find out what happened.  At this point, I would be kind of ok with all the adults getting killed on those stairs and the kids doing a season 2 on their own.

[Irlandesa]

3 minutes ago, OldButHappy said:

I've been thinking that Ziggy was an innocent scapegoat...then, tonight, as Jane was in the child psychologist's waiting room, she had some very quick flashbacks...

Are we sure they were flashbacks or was she just thinking about potential incidents?  It's so hard to tell on this show because there are flashbacks and then there are fantasy sequences.  For instance, we've seen Jane run across the beach in her blue dress quite a bit but tonight we saw her shoot a gun.  Did she have a gun on the beach? We also saw her run up to the cliff's edge and stop.  But the last time we saw that scene, she actually jumped.

[Auntie Anxiety]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

I will refrain from saying "I told you so" about Perry.

 I won't say it either, MochaMajesty. I'll chalk my suspicions up to experience. Over the years, I've become hypersensitive to controlling men and emotional abuse.

Since Celeste was pregnant with twins, she probably had to spend much of her pregnancy at home resting, just what Perry wanted. Slowly things could have morphed into control and isolation and Perry needing to smack her around because he didn't want her to be one independent. As far as a high-powered female lawyer succumbing to this, you never know what someone's emotional baggage is. She might stick around for the kids, she might think that if she takes his abuse then the kids will be safe, etc. There's also the old adage about what you find most attractive in a partner early on is what you may end up loathing after a while. Celeste might have loved having a strong guy who takes charge, what with her always having to be in control in her career.

I'm thinking that one of the twins is hurting Amabella but she can't tell them apart and if she accuses the wrong one, she'll be in some 6yo's idea of trouble.

[scarynikki12]

Bonnie needs to watch out. Nathan says he wants to move and he was pretty hostile about making Bonnie happy via the parents dinner. I think he's getting ready to run just like he did when he was with Maddie. Bonnie needs to be proactive and have a lawyer on standby.

I am so impressed at how well Perry's abuse of Celeste is crafted. He's my Number 1 suspect for Jane's rape as a result. I also think one of the twins is hurting Amabella and they learned it from Perry. 

Speaking of, I feel so bad for Ziggy and Amabella. That stupid teacher! Her ineptitude leaves Amabella still being bullied and Ziggy as a scapegoat and fellow bully victim (assuming the shrink is correct). She did bring in the awesome shrink but probably assumed Ziggy would turn out to be the bully after all. 

I still have no idea who is dead and who did it and I'm loving every minute. 

[Blissfool]

16 minutes ago, OldButHappy said:

 

I've been thinking that Ziggy was an innocent scapegoat...then, tonight, as Jane was in the child psychologist's waiting room, she had some very quick flashbacks...I  had to watch it on the computer to actually see the image...and it doesn't look like Amabelle..so I'm thinking that Jane is remembering a time, prior to this story, when Ziggy had shown some disturbing behavior toward another child... If you have HBO Go, the flashback is at 43:38 and 43:39

Here's the flashback image:

At first i thought Jane was having a flashback to an incident where Ziggy had been violent but i rewound and watched it in slow motion and it looked like Amabella so I figured Jane was imagining how the incident at school had occurred if it was real.

And, it was actually from behind, as someone on this forum had suggested last week. Which could be the reason that Amabella couldn't correctly identify her abuser.

[tongueincheek]

Adding to the theory about the twins and Amabella. 

Judging by the previews for next week where it appears that Amabella has bite marks on her, I'm going out on the limb for a reach here and say that if the bullying is coming from one or both of the twins, it's because those two little boys are more perceptive to their parents toxic and abusive relationship than either Celeste or Perry could've ever imagined. Children are so incredibly perceptive, I actually get so peeved when they're frequently not given enough credit for being observant...anyways, the twins probably think that behavior at home is normal and it's their (or just one of them) way of showing some kind of liking/affection toward Amabella (God, forgive me for likening it to that. I hate the comparison of telling young girls specifically that a little boy pushes you or pulls your hair because they like you...such bs).

ETA: I don't know how to get rid of the spoiler block when you no longer need it.

Spoiler

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by tongueincheek

[OldButHappy]

12 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

At first i thought Jane was having a flashback to an incident where Ziggy had been violent but i rewound and watched it in slow motion and it looked like Amabella so I figured Jane was imagining how the incident at school had occurred if it was real.

I thought the same thing.  But when I looked at what Amabella was wearing the first day of school, along with her blonde hair, the flashback picture looked more like another boy, so I thought it could be an older memory.

And it's entirely possible that I'm 100% wrong -  I'm just sharing my thought process, not trying to argue a point (I've been Team Ziggy all along - it would be seriously chilling if his charm hid sociopathic tendancies!).

[PetuniaP]

Quote

I've seen enough of Celeste and Perry having sex.  Seriously, what is the obsession?  Is it a 50 shades thing?  They're not hot or interesting to me.  I don't care about the abuse plot.  Neither actor is selling it for me.

I think the point is to show that sex and violence are all twisted up in their relationship and it's almost impossible to separate the two. They've both expressed their anxieties about how comingled those two facets of their relationship are and Celeste wonders how complicit she is in her own abuse because she both lusts after and is afraid of her husband. Plus, l think many watchers of this show are pretty ok with with seeing Alexander Skarsgard and Nicole Kidman get it on. But beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder! Personally, I am mesmerized by Alexander Skarsgard. I haven't watched True Blood in a long time and I think I'd forgotten just how utterly hot that guy is. We should all be thrilled that not everyone finds the same things attractive otherwise anyone who did not look like that would be screwed! 

+1 to everyone who is not loving Shailene Woodley in this. I find her to be potato-like...in looks and personality as this character. I've only ever seen one other movie that she did and I can't help but wonder why she's in the movies at all...she's incredibly ordinary. 

I know I am supposed to hate Maddie but darned if Reese Witherspoon doesn't make the character sympathetic. Besides, I'm in the "Ed's a perv" camp so I don't really feel too badly for him anymore. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by PetuniaP

[Razzberry]

Cracks me up how much those twins look like Skarsgard.  They even have the cleft chin and overbite.  

There's more false trails in this thing than Jane's leaps off the cliff.  I swear to god if they continue this without offering a little more clarity I'm gonna scream.  First off I can't believe someone would actually be named 'Saxon Banks', it sounds invented.  She also had the gun on the beach, but there's no way of knowing what's true and what isn't at this point.  

[chocolatine]

Was it just me, or was the cheating reveal all kinds of WTF? The way Madeline was telling it to Celeste it sounded like the kiss that day at the theatre was the first time, but then it turns out they had an affair a year ago? Wouldn't Madeline either have told Celeste the truth, or kept quiet altogether?

Spoiler

I hate that the show has made Madeline a cheater. She and Ed were the only solid couple in the book.

 It was chilling how accustomed Celeste had gotten to the abuse. She didn't miss a beat after the choking, just put a scarf around her neck so that nobody would see the bruises and went about her day.

Like many of you, I find Shailene Woodley inadequate in the role of Jane.