S07.E08: Hearts Still Beating

[ganesh]

I would have liked to know more about the people in Negan's camp. It seemed like the people beating up Aaron were just bullies. But is it that they always were or that they think that's how they're supposed to act, or did they just turn that way?

They had the extra time with all these super sized episodes, but I feel like a lot of that time was wasted. I mean, they did show the compound, but it was more about Dwight. For a show that's been on for seven years, it's a huge lack of world building. 

[AngelaHunter]

1 minute ago, diebartdie said:

Norman Reedus was in a motorcycle accident and he has a metal plate there in his cheeck, hence the "welt"

Yes, I did know that, but at least now the other eye matches. I never thought he was ugly at all. He's got a nice face, pretty blue eyes and shoulders out to here.  He's just filthy and greasy and smelly-looking to an extent I can't imagine touching him even with rubber gloves on.

Whoever mentioned that they're sick of Carol and her Greta Garbo "I want to be left alone" act, you're not the only one. But then, I'm sick to death of most of the people on this show. I did like Olivia, but, well - bang. Spencer had more blood in him than a racehorse has. Looked like at least a gallon or two spreading out around his body.

Negan, you need to grow back that beard pronto, or gain some weight. The hotness factor dropped to zero sans whiskers, IMO.  I don't even like beards, but Rick and now Negan NEED them and bonus points for being gray.

[Raven1707]

6 hours ago, Ouisch said:

That's what I wonder. Aaron told CDB when he first found them that he and his compatriots had scoped the area around Alexandria 50 miles in every direction. That's why they needed additional personnel, supposedly - to help them search further and find more people. (Which would ultimately stretch their limited food resources that much quicker, but why split hairs.) During all those sojourns, he never found Hilltop nor the Kingdom. Then, when Rick and Company executed that complicated plan to lead the quarry walkers away some 20 miles, none of them encountered Saviors or Hilltop or.... etc. Now suddenly they're making the commute from ASZ to Hilltop in seemingly record time on a regular basis. On foot.

Aaron wasn't the one who mentioned that; it was Aiden & Nicholas, in Episode 512, "Remember":

Aiden: We’ve been increasing our radius mile by mile, spreading in a semi-circle around the town.
Nicholas: We’ve made it 53 miles out so far.

So, a semi-circle. Later, in Episode 601, "First Time Again," we get another bit of clarification when they need to bury Pete:

Rick: We’re not gonna bury killers inside these walls.
Tobin: I understand how you feel. I do. But it’s not your decision.
Deanna: Tobin. Rick’s right. (She walks towards bodies, then stops.) Take it away. Go west. Down Branton Road a few miles. (Ron is nearby but not in sight, listening to all of this) Just past the bridge. We don’t go out that way. Let the trees have him.

It doesn't really add up to "in every direction."

And...we actually didn't see how Rick & the others got to Hilltop, so whether they drove or walked is an unknown.

[Enigma X]

So, I decided to watch this episode. The feels at the end was worth it. 

Who knew JDM's/Negan's facial hair was hiding a 65-year-old man underneath?

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't know what makes Carol think the Saviors will respect her desire to be alone.   Her ignorance on that score seems self-destructive.   She can't even get people who like her to stay away.   

I don't think Carol cares if Saviors come after her.  She left so there is no one she cares about and feels compelled to defend.

Carol will rejoin the fight when she hears from Rick and Daryl that Negan beat Glenn to a bloody pile on the road in front of them.  Actually she'll probably resist a little more then, but she won't stay out of it with CDB at war with Negan. 

2 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Negan, you need to grow back that beard pronto,

I have seen JDM in other things.  I'm kind of baffled at how much he looked like a young Tommy Lee Jones doing a high school production of Grease in this one.  I sincerely think it would go a hell of a long way if they could figure out how to get rid of this 'ripped for the comic book' vibe that Negan has going on.  But its like the writers, the actor, the directors, and wardrobe just flat out refuse to let that happen.

18 minutes ago, ganesh said:

They had the extra time with all these super sized episodes, but I feel like a lot of that time was wasted. I mean, they did show the compound, but it was more about Dwight. For a show that's been on for seven years, it's a huge lack of world building. 

They've been going from premiere to finale with pointless filler in-between for a couple of years now.  Its a shame.

[AngelaHunter]

11 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Who knew JDM's/Negan's facial hair was hiding a 65-year-old man underneath?

I see he was in a mini-series called "Texas Rising" and like a few other actors, starved himself to lose 40lbs for the role of someone with tuberculosis. I understand wanting to get into a part you're playing, but that's a bad idea. Really bad.

[ganesh]

13 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

They've been going from premiere to finale with pointless filler in-between for a couple of years now.  Its a shame.

I guess this time around it was a little more egregious because it seemed like they had JDM for X episodes, so he was going to get all the air time. 

As dumb as the Tara episode was in that there's yet *another* group no one has heard of, at least there was some more of a picture of this world. Having CDB et al., under Negan's thumb is actually a decent narrative device. You can spend several episodes with the groups going out to scavenge like they showed Rick/Aaron. Then maybe someone would make a map!

So even if it was filler to get to this episode, we could have seen more activity. It's just baffling how with such potential, you leave all that on the table to have Negan doing his deal all the time. 

[lmsweb]

One thing that's cracking me up laughing every time I watch (and then read posts on here about who's watching Judith, which is really just a retread on "Coral, stay in the house") is that today's helicopter parents would NEVER leave their 2 year old with just some random person while they go out and do thangs. Apparently post ZA the only prerequisite is actually being alive.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Who makes spaghetti and biscuits?

*looks around sheepishly, then raises her hand* But, but I can explain! See I love dunking bread into spaghetti sauce, especially homemade spaghetti sauce, but the traditional Italian or French bread I used to use when I was younger... well I can't justify the extra carbs now even if I'm eating whole wheat spaghetti (which I do. I actually prefer the taste now.) But, if I make biscuits, I can use whole wheat baking mix - at least there's a bunch of fiber in there - and it doesn't take a whole lot of time to make biscuits with the baking mix like it would wheat rolls, and .... okay I admit it! I don't know how to make rolls! Or any kind of bread with yeast in it*... but I can make passable - and sometimes even yummy - whole wheat biscuits. I can add Parmesan cheese, or chopped onions, or garlic, or parsley, or a combination. And they'll bake in like 10 minutes and voila fresh hot biscuits to go with the spaghetti.

Yeah, I doubt that Carl was going to wait for the dough to rise to make rolls - if he even knew how to make rolls... which I kinda doubt.

* Unless it's in my bread maker, but I lost the damn paddle to that thing - think it went to someone in a loaf of bread - and can't make yeast bread again until I replace the thing. Those usually took at least a couple of hours to make though.

Quote

And drinks lemonade with it?

Okay, even I don't do that.

Quote

If we needed more proof that Negan was evil, there it is.

Well, I am a Damn Yankee. (see below)

3 hours ago, Muffyn said:

Might I add one more thing to this list?  He also misidentified the biscuits as rolls.  Rolls!  He is evil to his very core.  He is in the south.  He should damn well know a biscuit when he sees one. 

Okay, I admit it... I do this too. Those biscuits I talked about making to go with spaghetti above? Sometimes I call them rolls! I know they're biscuits, but sometimes I call them rolls anyway... because I'm a Damn Yankee who didn't really eat biscuits growing up*, and decided to co-opt the easier to make biscuits and offhandedly call them rolls sometimes... because I can, and my southern born husband lets me get away with it (he thinks my biscuits are delicious whether I call them biscuits or rolls), and because:  Damn Yankee... and evil. ; )

* Up north, the non-yeast breads we traditionally ate were either muffins or sweet breads**, both typically sweeter than biscuits. Even our "corn bread" (usually muffins) aren't made with lard and are sweeter.

** Date nut or cranberry nut especially... in Indiana I learned to make zucchini bread, mostly out of self-defense so as not to be buried in zucchini squash from my garden plot... or "generous" neighbors...

And speaking of squash: I call shenanigans on a bunch of beautiful yellow squash from a home garden in a zombie apocalypse in the south ... at least in Georgia anyway. If the Virginia growing situation is similar (anyone know?), unless the gardeners were able to nab some heavy duty pesticides and watched the squash carefully, squash vine borers are going to get them eventually. It's annoying here in Georgia. I don't even bother with yellow or zucchini any more in my home garden. They aren't worth the garden space, resources, or time. I grow something called cucuzzi squash... also known as snake gourd. If planted at the right time, they produce a lot of squash and they are vine borer resistant and pickleworm tolerant. Also summer squashes don't keep long. Cucuzzi and especially winter squash keep much longer without refrigeration or canning. Grown on a trellis especially, I think they'd be a better use of garden space.

[Iguessnot]

9 hours ago, Scaeva said:

Negan killing Olivia instead of Rosita was in character. He did a similar thing with Glenn, after Daryl punched him. That's just how he rolls.

It also makes a certain amount of sense.

Daryl and Rosita both didn't care about their own lives at the moment they took a shot at Negan. Any reasonable person would expect to die afterwards. Daryl had to expect to be killed by Negan or his goons after punching him, and Rosita had to expect that she'd be gunned down by one of Negan's henchmen if she killed him. So Negan killing either one, wouldn't really be a punishment, as they were prepared to die. Instead he kills someone else, and puts the guilt for that person's death on their conscience. It might be twisted and evil, but there is a certain amount of pragmatism to it. It sends a stronger message, and arguably works as a greater deterrent, than just killing the person who transgressed.

There's not a lot with how the writers have handled Negan, or this entire season for that matter, that I'd be willing to defend. I think they got it right with how Negan reacted to Rosita shooting at him, though.

Negan didn't kill Olivia, Arat did. Negan even said he would have killed someone else. This is the 3rd or 4th episode that Arat has been called out of the crowd of many. I'm wondering what her role will be in future episodes.

[Iguessnot]

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

At this point, I don't care if it's Maggie, or Rick, or the ghost of Olivia, or the Tooth Fairy, I just want someone, anyone, to kill him.  I'm still trying to pry my eyes downward from rolling them so hard when Negan put that stupid damn idiotic bat on a dining chair, with the declaration that "she's hungry."  What the hell does that even mean???

Actually that seat was for Rick. Negan plopped Lucille there when Rick didn't show up and he was ready to eat.

[RedheadZombie]

5 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I see he was in a mini-series called "Texas Rising" and like a few other actors, starved himself to lose 40lbs for the role of someone with tuberculosis. I understand wanting to get into a part you're playing, but that's a bad idea. Really bad.

He said he lost down to 130# by eating one can of tuna a day.  He's like 6'2".  Looks like he hasn't put it back on yet.  Kind of like how Tom Hanks was so skinny in Forrest Gump after doing Philadelphia.  When Negan was  sitting in the chair with his legs stretched out, he was just so long and lean.  I prefer him with facial hair, but confess he looked pretty hot after shaving.  IMO. 

[ByTor]

21 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Finally, because it can't be said enough, if Carol wants to be left alone,  then why doesn't she just leave?  I am sick and tired of hearing her whine.

I know!  Stop kissing her ass and leave her alone!  Although, in her defense, why would she leave?  That was one hell of a nice fruit basket she was able to arrange for herself :)

5 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Actually that seat was for Rick. Negan plopped Lucille there when Rick didn't show up and he was ready to eat.

Yeah, but...he said a bat was hungry!  Although he also says a bat is thirsty, calls said bat "she", and said "she" has a pussy, so what do I know? 

[diebartdie]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

It is easy for Michone to want to fight.  She doesn't have any kids.  She has nothing to lose.

Why would you think that? She has Coral and Lil Asskicker now! Michonne has just as much skin in the game as Rick.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Rosita's eyebrow game is amazing but I still have to credit Daryl for attempting acts of cleanliness without ever stepping into actual water. The subtle blond highlights, the manly unshaven but kinda shaven chin, and most recently clean clothes on his filthy body.

[dstranger99]

Not a bad episode, but wasting 15 minutes on Carol could have been wrapped up in 5....

We also got another reminder that you can't outwit Negan and Spencer got it.......Fine with me, I never liked him..

Poor Eugene, but at least he'll be put to good use instead of doing nothing.

And so long fat girl......All you ever did was stand around anyway.........

[Ohwell]

10 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Negan didn't kill Olivia, Arat did. Negan even said he would have killed someone else. This is the 3rd or 4th episode that Arat has been called out of the crowd of many. I'm wondering what her role will be in future episodes.

It was Negan telling Arat to kill someone, who turned out to be Olivia.  If Negan hadn't told her to kill someone, Olivia would still be alive.  So, in that sense, Negan did kill Olivia.  Doesn't matter if he didn't want it to be Olivia.  She's still dead.

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

As regards the Rosita scene, Jeffrey Dean Morgan comes off as ridiculous in large part because he can't sell the absurd conceit of a grown man talking about a baseball bat as though it's a woman (which by the way is really fucking insulting to women, show).

Now I'm even happier I never saw the comics. His deviant obsession in the show with a piece of wood wrapped barbed-wire wrapped just makes him seem truly deranged.

I must admit I kind of liked his slow leading on of Spencer and then Spencer's face as it dawned on him that conversation had turned in a rather unpleasant direction. His earlier mirror rehearsal and his cringe-worthy "Hi" to Negan (as though he were entering some dorky convention where grown men go to buy, sell and trade action figures) were beyond annoying.

[riverheightsnancy]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I hope Eugene survives this thing, but I just get the feeling with Daryl killing the chubby dude and escaping, that Eugene is going to pay for the "sins" of Rick's little group.

I am still pissed at the lack of urgency from Rick's little group when most/if not all of them met at the Hilltop at the end of the episode.  Do they not care that Olivia was murdered?  Do they not care that Eugene was kidnapped?

I disagree. Eugene will do what he is told and not be a problem. He won't need to be tortured at all. Plus he is valuable. Eugene may actually be in an elevated position there with people working under him and using his knowledge to make bullets. He will teach them.  His self-esteem will be bolstered and he will be valued instead of constantly being told what a lazy, waste and loser coward he is (just recently done by Rosita and Abe). I know that he won't like the violence, but it won't come his way. I think that he will be very conflicted if he is treated well and valued there. Remember he told Abe about the bullet making idea, and he was basically laughed at. This could be a very interesting conflict for the character and a potential for growth. Instead of a one-dimensional scardey cat, he might actually be conflicted when CDM comes a-calling.   I think that the girl who killed Olivia had a run-in with her in the armory when the tally book didn't add up. I think that she chose her because of that.   I think that Rick and crew are likely worried about Eugene, but they will realize (that from Daryl's experience AND Carl's), that he will not be hurt if he complies. He will, so there's that. 

I think that Carol is clinically depressed and this is her way of slowly committing suicide. Morgan knows of this (so does Rick), that is why he keeps in touch until she has had her space and is ready to come back to life.  

[ByTor]

23 hours ago, diebartdie said:

. Negan said exactly why he offed Spencer, he was annoyed that Spencer would try to shmooze Negan into killing Rick on Spencer's behalf! 

I didn't think Negan murdered Spencer for sucking up to get him to kill Rick, I thought it was more about Spencer wanting Rick dead and being a sneaky rat about it.  Just ask the characters from Sons of Anarchy how rats are regarded! :)

[psychoticstate]

WTH was this?  WTH is going on with this season so far?  It sucks.

I really don't understand how the Saviours don't uprise over Negan and beat his ass.  There is one of him and many of them.  Plus, he seems to leave Lucille lying around.  I get some of them have been Stockholm Syndromed but surely not everyone?

JDM, I love you but I freaking hate Negan.  It's beyond old.  It's been the same old same old every damn episode, with the exception of The Kingdom.

I must have missed something because I'm not sure when Maggie was elevated to sacred cow status at Hilltop.  I like Maggie but she's part of Rick's group and Rick's group causes nothing but trouble for everyone.

Someone, please give Daryl a bath.

I figured Spencer and his smarminess would bite it but it will still pretty brutal and sad.  Terrible for Olivia.  Did anyone care?  

When is Rick going to keep a better eye on Carl?  (No pun intended.)  Two of Rick's group dead and Aaron beaten up basically because Carl had to be a tough guy and storm Negan.  Did he think Negan was going to let the 2 people (or was it more?) that Carl killed just slide?  

I too think that food that Rick and Aaron stole is going to be poisoned or something.  That sign was there for a reason. 

I'm glad Rick finally got his dander up but it's a little too late.

And Rosita . . . Jesus Christ.  Negan is like two feet in front of you and you can't take him out with a gun?  Lucille is a much smaller target and you hit her?  God.  Obviously all that time with Abe did not pay off.  She needs to go join the Amazon women that couldn't hit Tara when they were shooting at her.  I hate crap like this because it's an obvious plot device that makes zero sense but it needed to be in the storyline so that Negan could have someone killed.  And doubly stupid for Rosita since she should have known Negan would want to know where that bullet came from, thereby putting Eugene in danger.  Some of these people are far too stupid to still be alive.

I've seen it said in other posts and threads but it bears repeating.  The walkers are just a nuisance at this point.  Aaron fell in the lake full of them and emerged unscathed?  I'm glad he survived because I like him but . . . really? 

So the show doesn't come back until February . . . um, okay.  I'm not sure I care that much.

[Irishmaple]

It didn't bother me that Aaron survived Zombie Lake. I don't even swim and I was yelling "dive, dive, dive" like this was a submarine movie. Once he got under the water, I figured Aaron would be fine. The zombies were treading water and Rick was distracting them. They lost interest in Aaron once he was out of sight and I'll bet he swam to the boat like he was Michael Phelps.

I liked this episode in spite of Olivia's pointless death and Negan's endless yapping.  @mightysparrow summed up the reason though in an earlier post. This season wore me down to the point that I seriously considered waiting for it to show up On Demand. I could not face another blockbuster Negan episode. Instead Daryl got out and met Jesus and, while I am ride or die Rick Grimes, Jesus is awfully easy on the eye. I think Daryl might have noticed. Maggie and Sasha are injecting some badly-needed balls into Hilltop. Richard beating his head against a wall of pacifism made my tiny heart bleed for him, and I do love a man with the makings of Molotov cocktails. Finally a weapon even I can wield! 

And then the band got back together. I love Rick and Michonne. The way they talk to each other, the way they listen to each other. I especially loved how, when Michonne stepped back from the first kiss, Rick immediately gave her space. He knows she could do better and isn't taking her for granted. 

I enjoyed the walk into Hilltop and all the reunions, including Carl and Enid.  Tara even had a bit of a strut to her walk. I can't wait for these guys to meet Richard. These are his people right there.

[millennium]

re: Carl's socket.

Realistically, how long should that take to heal up so it doesn't look like a bottomless pit?

[AngelaHunter]

13 minutes ago, millennium said:

re: Carl's socket.

Realistically, how long should that take to heal up so it doesn't look like a bottomless pit?

It's ridiculous. Looks like someone smashed a mini-pizza on his face.

 

2 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Eugene may actually be in an elevated position there with people working under him and using his knowledge to make bullets. He will teach them.  His self-esteem will be bolstered and he will be valued instead of constantly being told what a lazy, waste and loser coward he is (just recently done by Rosita and Abe).

I really hope so, but it seems the Saviors are a bunch of cement-headed, schoolyard bullies and I can see them sneakily picking on Eugene when Big Daddy isn't looking.  When he teachers others how to make bullets they won't need him anymore.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

When is Rick going to keep a better eye on Carl?  (No pun intended.)  Two of Rick's group dead and Aaron beaten up basically because Carl had to be a tough guy and storm Negan.  Did he think Negan was going to let the 2 people (or was it more?) that Carl killed just slide?

For me, personally, I'm not going to pin most of this on Carl. First, because Olivia was mainly because of Rosita. Aaron was mainly because of those Savior bullies, and Spenser was an idiot. Also I'm not so sure that it wasn't time for Negan to be there? Negan mentioned something about Rick being late, insinuating that they had some kind of "appointment." But I'm a little wonky on the timeline though. How long was Carl with Negan? Because it seems like Spenser and oh rats, who was he with again? (There's too many people in this show now.) and Rick and Aaron were expecting Negan to come back soon which was why they were getting stuff. And did Eugene and Rosita walk to the ammo building shed and back? How far away was that and how long did that trip take? And that was between the first and second Negan visit, right? But Eugene was there also when Tara came back, too, so...

When Negan mentioned something about Rick being "late," I was wondering if this wasn't the original "one week" visit day that got changed when Negan came early last time? I'm assuming Tara left before the Negan head bashing incident and then returned somewhere between the first and second Negan visit - or was it before the first Negan visit (the episode came after, so I assumed it was after) - but that's all I got on that one. More confusing is the Daryl timeline. How many days was it before Negan first came to get stuff? Because it made it look like Daryl was in that cell a long time before he played along - it made it seem like a long time anyway - but then Daryl was with them when Negan's group came to pick up stuff in 3 days - was that what Rick said? And Daryl was there already?  And is that when Carl got into the truck and went back with Negan? So how long was Carl with Negan before Negan brought him back? Was that enough time for Eugene and Rosita to head out, make a bullet, and then come back in time to see Tara come home? What perfect timing!

Am I missing something - was there more than the two visits by Negan to Alexandria? There's no way all that stuff with Daryl happened in like 3 days, right?

I'm so damn confused.

Edited December 13, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[psychoticstate]

I'm confused too.  I have no idea.  

I assumed that Negan and his henchmen wouldn't have been at Alexandria if Carl hadn't run off.  Who knows?  This show is making me wonky.

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I think that the girl who killed Olivia had a run-in with her in the armory when the tally book didn't add up. I think that she chose her because of that.

Now that you mention it, I remember that.  So the shooting wasn't so random after all, but she still wouldn't have shot Olivia if Negan hadn't given the order to shoot somebody.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

I assumed that Negan and his henchmen wouldn't have been at Alexandria if Carl hadn't run off.

You may be right, but they did have a truck to fill up with stuff, so I don't know.

If that is the case that Negan only came back because of Carl, then I'd blame Carl a bit for Aaron, but that's about all. Spencer made his own mess by initiating contact. Olivia and Eugene happened because of Rosita, who seemed determined to carry out her "plan" (And I use that term loosely) even after talking to father Gabriel, so it was more a matter of when that was going to happen. She didn't have to shoot at Negan right then though, so that was her choice to take the shot then. If she hadn't shot, the damage might've been restricted to Spencer - which I can't say wasn't mostly his own hubris and bad judgement there. (Listening to Henchwoman #1 and letting her butter up his ego was a bad, bad idea).

And if Negan hadn't been there, maybe Spencer might've gotten it into his head to try something else sneaky to "take Rick's place" - and that something might've been worse for Rick (or someone else who might've gotten caught in the crossfire.)

Edited December 13, 2016 by AwesomO4000
spelling and parentheses placement.

[piequinn35]

tv show - Negan should live another day

reality - How did Rosita miss that shot? 

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable Ratings are in for "Hearts Still Beating":

The final “Walking Dead” episode of 2016 was the runaway leader in Sunday’s cable ratings — no surprise there. It also trailed the ratings for the fall finale in the past several seasons — also no surprise in this season of declines for the show.

Sunday’s episode posted a 5.1 rating in adults 18-49 and 10.583 million viewers, up a tenth of a point and about 100,000 viewers from the previous week. That’s the smallest 18-49 rating for a fall finale since Season 2 and the smallest viewer total for that episode since Season 3. It’s down about 27 percent from the 7.0 for last season’s midpoint.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-dec-11-2016/

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for the first 8 episodes of Season 7:

10-23-16 “The Day Will Come When You Won’t Be” 17.029 million
10-30-16 “The Well” 12.455 million
11-06-16 “The Cell” 11.721 million
11-13-16 “Service” 11.402 million
11-20-16 “Go Getters” 10.996 million
11-27-16 “Swear” 10.403 million
12-04-16 “Sing Me a Song” 10.481 million
12-11-16 “Hearts Still Beating” 10.583 million

I doubt they're popping champagne corks over these...

[ganesh]

I think Rick was "late" simply because Negan said so. As it was pointed out, they only showed up at ASZ because Negan was taking Carl back. 

Which again brings up the question as how Negan is running his "vast"  organization seemingly on a whim. I get the show isn't going to go over this minutiae. On the other hand, they have these super sized episodes where they could at least give us a peek. 

[catrox14]

It seems to me that Negan has known all along they were in Alexandria and was just fucking with them. 

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Who makes spaghetti and biscuits?  And drinks lemonade with it?  If we needed more proof that Negan was evil, there it is.

That was one random and disgusting dinner. But then Judith fell asleep. So I guess he bores her too. 

[Mu Shu]

1 hour ago, piequinn35 said:

tv show - Negan should live another day

reality - How did Rosita miss that shot? 

It's really easy to miss the mark with a handgun, even at fairly close range.

[ghoulina]

17 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Spencer had more blood in him than a racehorse has. Looked like at least a gallon or two spreading out around his body.

I had the same thought. When they panned out and we saw him laying there, I started to squint. I was wondering if more than one person was gutted in that street. 

 

16 hours ago, lmsweb said:

One thing that's cracking me up laughing every time I watch (and then read posts on here about who's watching Judith, which is really just a retread on "Coral, stay in the house") is that today's helicopter parents would NEVER leave their 2 year old with just some random person while they go out and do thangs. Apparently post ZA the only prerequisite is actually being alive.

And obviously he didn't know Olivia that well. Homegirl was NOT a good nanny. She went off looking for lemonade and left Judith there with the psychopath. I mean, Carl was there as well. But still. You can't carry lemonade and a baby at the same time? I can. 

 

16 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

This is the 3rd or 4th episode that Arat has been called out of the crowd of many. I'm wondering what her role will be in future episodes.

Really? I never noticed her until this episode. Shows how compelling this show has been for me lately. 

 

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I am surprised that Rick wants to go to war, given that the most recent confrontations and carnage these past few episodes were instigated by his own group.

I figured he'd come around eventually. But I also figured it would be a lot longer before the group bounced back and was ready to fight. For the sake of television, though, I'm glad of it. 

 

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

It is easy for Michone to want to fight.  She doesn't have any kids.  She has nothing to lose.

They ALL have something to lose - each other. And, not for nothing, Carl and Judith as family to her as well. 

 

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

I didn't think Negan murdered Spencer for sucking up to get him to kill Rick, I thought it was more about Spencer wanting Rick dead and being a sneaky rat about it.  Just ask the characters from Sons of Anarchy how rats are regarded! :)

I didn't think it was about him WANTING Rick dead, but how he went about it. Like HE (Spencer) could manipulate Negan. It was insulting. 

[mightysparrow]

This episode doesn't stand up to close examination; there are more plot holes than in that boat Rick and Aaron used.

Daryl's killing Fat Joe was uncharacteristically brutal.  I know that Daryl had been tortured and abused, but did Fat Joe take part.  FJ was obviously a coward and probably couldn't be trusted, but damn, Daryl beat the shit out of a man who was telling him to go in peace.  It's like Michonne killing Red.  Again, Michonne probably didn't think she could trust Red to keep her secret but it just doesn't seem like Michonne.

It's obvious that Gimple thought that the reunion between Rick and Daryl was more important than showing the reunion of Daryl and Maggie.  Norman Reedus said that Daryl was worried Maggie blamed him for Glen's death.  So did Daryl and Jesus arrive 10 seconds before Rick and the gang?  If not, then there must have been time for Maggie to react to seeing Daryl and, of course, we don't see it.

Did anybody even miss Carol?

So after Negan and his crew left, did CDB just flash deuces and pull up stakes for Hilltop?  Was there any discussion with the rest of the people of Alexandria about what the plan was?  The Alexandrians have lost a lot of important members of their community.  Did any of them feel any kind of way about Rosita's recklessness behaviour getting Olivia killed?  Are they still willing to let the newbies call all the shots?  I'll bet Eric must be setting Aaron's ears on fire.  Why should Aaron get his ass kicked on Rick Grimes behalf? 

Rick's gun is clearly his 'Lucille'.  As soon as Daryl handed it over, Sheriff Rick Grimes was back, baby.  Unfortunately, that's the last thing anybody needs.  Rick is a CRAP leader.  The idea that CDB is willing to line up behind him after all the people they've lost is madness.  If CDB is going to take on Negan, they need a new leader.  And if Rick honestly thinks that he's the guy who should be in charge, he's a bigger asshole than even I thought he was.  Rick needs to sit the fuck down.  If CDB had any sense, they would go back to their council days.  The Ricktatorship ain't working.

[leocadia]

What really bothered me about the reunion was that to the best of Daryl's knowledge (per Father Gabriel's lie during the first looting of Alexandria) Maggie was dead.  I get that Jesus probably told him the truth on the way back to Hilltop, but I really wanted to see his reaction to finding out she was alive and well.

[Soobs]

My guess is someone accidentally backed into the dry erase board in the writers' room and erased a lot of the who-knows-what diagram.

That being said I kind of liked the Smilefest at the end of the episode.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

Daryl's killing Fat Joe was uncharacteristically brutal.  I know that Daryl had been tortured and abused, but did Fat Joe take part.  FJ was obviously a coward and probably couldn't be trusted, but damn, Daryl beat the shit out of a man who was telling him to go in peace.  It's like Michonne killing Red.

I didn't think Daryl was going to kill him either, not after the way he talked Rick out of killing the Rapey Lollicop who was trying to kill him (Daryl) but once he did it, I could kind of understand. Someone had to pay for all that horrible music Daryl had to listen to when he was trying to get some ZZZs. And it's not the first time Michonne has killed someone in cold blood. The poor hermit in the cabin - who could have been silenced in other ways -  that she ran through with her sword always comes to mind.  The murder of Red was more justified, IMO, although I didn't know she killed her until I read it here. You shouldn't be saying "Fat Joe." That's "body shaming" or maybe that applies only to women? What do I know?

[maystone]

44 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I didn't think Daryl was going to kill him either, not after the way he talked Rick out of killing the Rapey Lollicop who was trying to kill him (Daryl) but once he did it, I could kind of understand. Someone had to pay for all that horrible music Daryl had to listen to when he was trying to get some ZZZs. And it's not the first time Michonne has killed someone in cold blood. The poor hermit in the cabin - who could have been silenced in other ways -  that she ran through with her sword always comes to mind.  The murder of Red was more justified, IMO, although I didn't know she killed her until I read it here. You shouldn't be saying "Fat Joe." That's "body shaming" or maybe that applies only to women? What do I know?

The character's name is Fat Joey (played by Joshua Hoover), so there's that. He actually was one of Daryl's guards at Negan's place and according to the wiki he was one of Negan's top lieutenants; he's the one who took a bite out of Daryl's pathetic little sandwich before throwing it to him. I'm guessing that he made Daryl's life miserable in many ways. Seeing as how FJ was in Negan's inner circle, there's no way in hell anyone should believe that he wouldn't run to Negan asap to say that Daryl escaped. No doubt he'd lie about how it all happened so he wouldn't get the blame, but he wouldn't hold onto that info. Besides, he was there when Abraham and Glenn were murdered; he was complicit up to his freaking eyeballs in that slaughter. I'm glad that Daryl took him out.

[Johnny Dollar]

Seriously. What's the likelihood that Negan would let the person who tried to kill him live, and let someone else kill a rando like Olivia?  Must be Kirkman's Keep the Hot Chick Alive rule.

Negan's chronic back issue may have been solved if he just kept one of those mattresses from Alexandria instead of burning them all. And why are the Saviors living in some burned out shell of a factory while Alexandria has running water and a/c?  For a ruthless leader, he doesn't seem too smart. 

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

What's the likelihood that Negan would let the person who tried to kill him live, and let someone else kill a rando like Olivia?

That kind of makes sense to me. If people know that someone else will pay the price for their acts of rebellion, I would imagine they'd think twice before flying off the handle. Rosita didn't think about anyone else, but I'd guess most do. It's a good way to keep people in line, if those people have any feelings at all towards each other.

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Must be Kirkman's Keep the Hot Chick Alive rule.

Or it could be that. Kirkman's Fantasy Chicks!

[ganesh]

Negan was fat in junior high and got picked on. He's showing everyone now!

[Save Yourself]

I really enjoyed this episode, it was such a relief to see the whole gang rather than the infuriating solo storyline episodes (aka filler).

It also pisses me off that they do an episode like this - it proves that the writers are capable of interweaving multiple storylines in a single episode so I don't understand why they don't do it every episode. The odd bottle episode that is of a high standard and adds something to the story like 'Clear' can be compelling but not crap like 'Still' and most of the episodes this half season. I really hope this next half season makes up for the hard slog that was the first eight.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Save Yourself
Spelling

[RedheadZombie]

37 minutes ago, Save Yourself said:

I really enjoyed this episode, it was such a relief to see the whole gang rather than the infuriating solo storyline episodes (aka filler).

It also pisses me off that they do an episode like this - it proves that the writers are capable of interweaving multiple storylines in single episode so I don't understand why they don't do it every episde. The odd bottle episode that is of a high standard and adds something to the story like 'Clear' can be compelling but not crap like Still' and most of the episodes this half season. I really hope this next half season makes up for the hard slog that was the first half.

I wonder if it's cheaper to film only one community at a time.  It's probably easier on the crew.  And maybe the actors get paid per episode?  I also wonder if it's to give the veterans more time off?  I have no idea, but I don't care for it. 

[ViewerPDX]

If I'm CDB, I'd do a Daryl for Eugene trade all day and everyday.  Plus Negan just got rid of Rick's only real threat at ASZ in Spencer, and Olivia has been a Redshirt from Day One we were introduced to her.  Plus in Negan's mind she wasn't a Provider for him, but at some point he needs to stop killing people if he wants to take from his various groups.

7 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I wonder if it's cheaper to film only one community at a time.  It's probably easier on the crew.  And maybe the actors get paid per episode?  I also wonder if it's to give the veterans more time off?  I have no idea, but I don't care for it. 

Episodes aren't shot one at a time.  Locations are, but it's up to the show-runner, writers, and the editors following the show-runner's and writers' story to tell the tale of each episode.  Each location is shot completely before moving to the next, regardless of story telling and episodic sequence.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ViewerPDX

[Save Yourself]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I wonder if it's cheaper to film only one community at a time.  It's probably easier on the crew.  And maybe the actors get paid per episode?  I also wonder if it's to give the veterans more time off?  I have no idea, but I don't care for it. 

Yes actors get paid per episode and given how tight AMC are it wouldn't surprise me in the least that this influences the amount of these filler episodes. Andrew Lincoln is reportedly earning $500,000 per episode so that's a significant saving for them. Not sure about the time off factor, you'd hope not considering they only film for 6 months! 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Save Yourself
Grammer

[AngelaHunter]

ganesh, I just had to add something to your post (in italics):

Kirkman's Barry Stu/alter-ego "Negan was fat in junior high and got picked on. He's showing everyone now!"

There. :D

[qtpye]

I don't think since Cousin Oliver on the Brady Bunch or Scrappy Doo, has an addition of a new character brought down a show so much.

When Negan shaved his beard, I noticed that his large head made his shoulders look tiny in his t-shirt/undershirt get up.  This might explain why he needs to wear ladies jackets. 

The character is a horrible joke and it is even worse, because everyone is supposed to be terrified of him.  Even baby Judith did not look impressed.

[Timetoread]

I liked this episode but I was pissed because everything I said would happen when people went off half cocked, happened.  Carl's visit to Negan didn't do anything but bring Negan to Alexandria.  Rosita got somebody killed and Eugene kidnapped.  Michonne basically didn't do shit, but find out what she should have already known - there's too many of them.  It's basic logic.  If the armory they took was an OUTPOST then that was only a fraction of the whole population.  If you kill 50 men and 60 more show up to keep fucking with you, then there are too many of them.  If Daryl, who survived the Gov and Terminus and thus has a bit of practice with recon, has not made a power move and telegraphed "We got this!", then there are probably too many of them.  If you know that there is a network of towns (Jesus informed you of this) and Negan is shaking them ALL down.  Then...and I will say this slowly so as to be understood...THERE. ARE. TOO. FUCKING. MANY. OF. THEM.   I don't get why the very smart people of our group - who were held captive by about 200 men and saw who Negan was - can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that they might need to come up with a plan, rather than just walk in with piss and vinegar and 6 shooter. 

This right here, I don't care how many people hate Rick for stuff he didn't actually do, is why I get mad when the knee jerk reaction to every problem is to assume it's caused by Rick's weakness.  Rick is not a perfect person, but he was a cop before all of this, and he knows the deal when he is in the presence of a villain (read, criminal, gangster, psycho, etc - a bad guy).  I trust his instincts.  Rick has already done the math.  Snot bubbles were the direct result of his calculations that he wasn't going to be able to kill his way out, bribe his way out, posture his way out, or even self-sacrifice his way out.  Like a true criminal, Negan sniffed out Rick as well - because game knows game.  He knew what he would have to do to get him to stand down and it still took him 2 Lucilles and all night long.  Based on what he said to Spencer, Negan has a very good read on Rick.  He knows Rick is dangerous and he knew Spencer would NEVER try that shit with Rick around.  Negan knows that Rick is a threat - it's why he is so mean to him. He knows that if Rick can suss out even an iota of weakness, he will make a move.  Negan knows better than to blink around Rick.  It's why he keeps showing up.  It's also why he's playing with Carl.  Carl is Rick's soft spot, but he is also his strength.  Negan uses Carl as a shield.  He could be a very interesting villain but he is written so horribly.

Let me end with one more thought.  And I apologize if somebody else already said this. The critique of Rosita's shooting is not fair or realistic.  The thought that any shot she takes would be a bullseye is ridiculous.  Taking away that he was a moving target (even breathing and just being alive and awake makes one a moving target) and that she was about 5 yards away from him, and that she had never actually fired that gun, or used Eugene's bullets, that she was under stress, maybe even perspiring, that the guns size and weight may not have been ideal for her, and that she didn't have the opportunity to aim (those touting Sasha's skill should know that she is using an entirely different weapon on which she is VERY practiced and that has a calibrated sight and takes the time to aim), it should be noted that a head shot is HARD to make in general.  It is too easy to miss.  A bullet to the chest or stomach would have been sufficient.  Understand that shooting skill is not an exact science and conditions have to be perfect to "guarantee" a bullseye by even the most gifted shooters.  Even Rick usually has to take several shots or be at point blank range.  I thought the fact that she hit the bat was the most realistic thing on this show.  She took a head shot and hit something close to his head.  Don't believe what you see on tv and movies.  Killing people is messy business and most humans are not experts at it.  The ones that are are monsters. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Timetoread