S33.E11: About To Have A Rumble

[Rachel RSL]

Quote

Whoever said Will was summoning Neptune from the Underworld in his TH had me laughing.  I think it was laurakaye.  Bravo.

Seriously. I almost DIED laughing at that comment. 1) Because it was funny 2) Because it was so true!

[JaggedLilPill]

Sometimes I wonder if there are players who genuinely think the only time they'll get votes is when they're in the final three and it's a time where you want to see your name written down.

Otherwise, it's Survivor. Never assume your name won't be thrown around. Especially this far into the game. 

ETA:

Quote

Ken.  Sigh.  You big dope.  You can come tell me about the lavender around your shower anytime.

LMAO. Dirty!

Edited December 1, 2016 by JaggedLilPill

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Survivor Finds Fickle Flip-Floppers Cause Fighting

Will thinks it's time to make a move, and then gets outed by Ken's insane gameplay.

[PerfidiousAmber]

4 hours ago, fishcakes said:

11 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

What I do not understand is how we are into December and at the end of this episode there are so many people still there. The finale is usually the week before Christmas. Are they planning a few double eliminations?  

I don't get it either. Last night's TC was Day 33. There are only 6 more days but there are 8 people left.

Probst said this on EW:

"Okay, tease us up for next week!
We are getting down to the end, and next week we lose two people. I love/hate these episodes because I hate losing people, but I love having Two Tribals and two votes. Then the following week, it’s our finale and it’s going to be great!"

[piequinn35]

Ken didn't speak in TC? I am not sure if Ken screwed up his game or not, the Idol went to waste, Will did vote for Zeke.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, mishap said:

I hate the loved ones episode.   The only ones I feel who have a reason to get so emotional over it, are the ones who get to see a spouse, or someone who is part of their daily lives.  So for a 30 or 40-something to see a sibling, or a parent, seems kind over over blown.  Like they've never gone a month without seeing them?  Even if they are used to seeing them more often, they shouldn't be that distraught.

I don't think it's the fact that they haven't seen that person in several weeks. I think it's the fact that they ARE seeing them now. They're seeing someone - ANYONE - from their life who loves them and has their back and can give them a nice mental boost for the next few days. They can let down their guard and just "be" for a minute. 

 

3 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Shouldn't they go under the post on their backs, to avoid eating sand and better bend their bodies around it?

Was Jay the only one who went under on his back? I definitely thought that was the way to go. Maybe not your natural inclination at first, but it would be easier in the long run. 

 

1 hour ago, pamplemousse said:

I wasn't surprised that Ken immediately grabbed Jay to ask him if Will was telling the truth. I remember from a few eps back (and also unaired clips) that Ken and Jay hung out quite a bit out in the ocean fishing and bonding, and I remember Ken saying that he really liked Jay (in the unaired clip, he said Jay reminded him of himself ten years ago) and felt like they had a very close connection (I don't think Ken felt as much of that with Will). IMO the dumbest thing about Ken is that he trusted Jay and while I do not agree that Ken is arrogant in general or overall, I think he's naive bordering on arrogant for thinking that his relationship with Jay is separate (and more important to Jay) than Jay's loyalty to being part of Zeke's crew for the time being

Thank you for sharing this. I suspected there had to be something like this going on, especially with Ken's behavior after the RC. So it's nice to see it confirmed. I still think Ken reacted rashly. My hopes for him have lowered. I'm not going to go all scorched earth because the game gets to people and almost everyone out there has made a dumb move at some point. Adam was playing HORRIBLY just weeks ago, and now he seems to be doing very well. This game has just been so up and down; who knows what to expect anymore? I still think Ken is a good person and I enjoy watching him, but I don't know that he's really winner material. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by ghoulina

[Daisy]

re Love Visits. I hate them. I hate them as much as I hate Fallen Commrades. And the thing is - I never hated the love one visit, because before there used to be some kind of drama, or something in result of them  - caused other fallout in camp. (like Jon's grandma lie, Gregg not choosing the right people and causing his vote out) - stuff like that. And - it really seems the less, and less more we focus on people and their personal stories (one thing i beg the show to do again, show us more camplife not just strategy talk). I get on the fundamental level why it's emotional but like i said I can't even remember if it always used to be like "here's your dad!" and then "OH MY GOD!" and they are inconsolable. I actually miss the skype fests. that was fun and less time consuming. 

But these will never go because Jeff loves this. but I am seriously going to start fastforwarding them because it's boring and it eats up a good chunk of 43 minutes that we've don't have. 

Re: Adam + Mom decision/Hannah's comments. I know someone mentioned that they didn't like what Hannah said (ie: My mom is strong because she beat cancer) - or whatever it was, I took it more of My mom is strong, because she survived. Strong people do pass away, (my grandmother did), but with my mom -  who is a stage 3 aggressive breast cancer patient who 'beat' it - she's survived, and she is a lot stronger than I (like I flat out told my family if I ever have cancer, we'll say good bye, and I'll live my days on a sheep farm in NZ or something because I don't think I could do what my mom did, with all the radiation, chemo etc). my mom is my hero because of all she went through that's for sure, so I got what Hannah meant/said. 

With Adam - I actually lived away for two years when my mom first first diagnosed. I was in school, and she just did not want to be a distraction for me, or have me worry, quit school and everything. Now I get for Adam his mom was stage 4 - but I think, and we've seen this with Jenna  - you want to do anything to give your parent/loved one to cheer for and be happy about. My mom and I had had this fight constantly, (like why did you make me stay away/you were happy, in school and i could focus on that and chat about it, etc), and I can totally see that with this. "you're super sick/ yes! but you get to go on our favourite show, and then you can tell me all about it, and it takes my mind off things!"  happy moments is so important during this time, and while being around is important too - I think for Adam - he'l take solace that he gave his mom happy moments, rather than being around and having to hover and cause her worry. 

Re: Adam and the Idol - I don't consider it a waste. At that moment he had zero  idea if Will was staying with them or not, because Will was acting like a big colossal child.  Hannah has been right that both times she's said "it's me" it's been her, and had Will flipped back - Hannah's gone, and Ken/David/Adam are utterly screwed. Now they've got 4 + Will, vs. 3 (and Will) if he goes back, creating another deadlock. so it sucks - that both of Team David lost their idols, and Jay still has his. (and I'd argue the best way to do this is either utterly blindside Jay - but he's too bright for that) - or be very radio-silence about who is going to be the next bootout and hope Jay burns it). 

Re Ken: seriously? seriously. Jessica did that to you you big dummy. I'll never understand why people do that, especially if they aren't working with you. What do you expect them to do? tell the truth? It's one thing if you don't trust will - then you know - don't trust will. tell your group that and figure something else out. don't go ask the group who threw your name out. honestly. 

Re: Zeke. you were cool. then you were just obnoxious kinda. it would have been interesting to see you at final though. but happier that David won the war (who would have thought I'd be saying that 11 episodes later)..

[blackwing]

50 minutes ago, PerfidiousAmber said:

Probst said this on EW:

"Okay, tease us up for next week!
We are getting down to the end, and next week we lose two people. I love/hate these episodes because I hate losing people, but I love having Two Tribals and two votes. Then the following week, it’s our finale and it’s going to be great!"

When he says two tribals, does that mean two tribals in one hour, or does that mean a two hour episode?  I'm not really a big fan of the two hour episodes... I feel like it's poor planning on the scheduling department.  As much as I like Survivor, I'd rather have another week and spread out the enjoyment for longer, I already watch too many hours of TV per week!

[piequinn35]

I wish Adam just burned that reward adv. instead of giving it to Jay :/

[MissEwa]

I don't love the family visits and I don't hate them but you can't do them when there are nine people left. Those intros and the crying and the hugging goes on for soooooo looooooong when there are that many people. I will say though that I didn't realise how filthy and tanned the players were until you put them all next to their pale, pale relatives. And David's dad coming out in jeans and a heavyweight dark shirt? Somehow perfect for David's Dad. 

Ken! I have been on Team Ken from the beginning but that was some bad gameplay. And it wasn't even that he was indignant or panicked about his name coming up. He was like 'that... doesn't make sense!' (or something similar) - it wasn't just surprise, but confusion. I don't think he stands much of a chance, but in terms of winners edits the fact that he talked about winning the million for his daughter twice and didn't get voted out bodes well for him. 

It's so funny to me that Hannah may be paranoid and jumpy but both times she's sworn it was her she's been right. And it's even funnier the way she reacts to other people in her alliance doing dumb bonehead paranoid things - both with Adam a couple of weeks ago and with Ken now she's rolling her eyes and being the voice of reason and just annoyed at their insanity. I think she's actually got quite a head for Survivor - she know the right things to do and she can read people and situations well. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the emotional fortitude to follow through (hence choking with Zeke last week). 

So Adam didn't need to play his idol but they didn't show all the votes so nobody will ever know that Will did indeed make his big move (which, I mean, wasn't that big - flipping from the bottom of your alliance at nine is not bad play but it's not AMAZING). He was annoying me so much with all that talk about wanting credit and big moves and blah blah blah that I'm kind of glad, but I can't decide if this is brilliant for him or terrible. On one hand, the person he wanted out is gone, Adam's idol is gone and he can go back to his old alliance and swear on his grandma's life or whatever that he didn't flip, and they'll never know for sure. On the other, they probably won't believe him, and it's possible that neither will Ken/David/Hannah/Adam. 

ETA. Adam's reward advantage non-play. This was a good way to do it. In fact, in any other reward, I think it would have been kind of cool if he could have said to whoever won and said 'look, I could use this and claim the reward, but if you take me, I won't and I'll give it to you', and then the player who had it did the same. It makes it a sort of currency instead of a poisoned chalice, maybe? 

Edited December 1, 2016 by MissEwa

[iMonrey]

Quote

Ken: seriously? seriously. Jessica did that to you you big dummy. I'll never understand why people do that, especially if they aren't working with you.

In Ken's case, I agree with the recapper. I don't think he understands how the game works. I'm sure he was recruited: he's a male model, recently returned to the continental US and looking for work.

I'm not sure what to make of the time this show has devoted to Adam's mother. Are they focusing on this because Adam wins, or just because they're going to make a HUGE deal out of it on the reunion show? (Or both?)

Right now I think Jay has a pretty clear path to winning the whole thing. He seems to have fallen off everyone's radar and still has a HII.

It's odd that Bret, Sunday and David don't see that they don't really have much of a chance to win unless they're all in the final three. Millennials are going to outnumber Gen-Xers on the jury and I don't see a Gen-Xer getting enough votes to win against any of the millennials left. (Not so odd that Ken doesn't see this because - again- I don't think Ken understands how this game works.)

Edited December 1, 2016 by iMonrey

[PerfidiousAmber]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

When he says two tribals, does that mean two tribals in one hour, or does that mean a two hour episode?  I'm not really a big fan of the two hour episodes... I feel like it's poor planning on the scheduling department.  As much as I like Survivor, I'd rather have another week and spread out the enjoyment for longer, I already watch too many hours of TV per week!

Just checked the tv listings for next week - 1 hour only.

[JaggedLilPill]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It's odd that Bret, Sunday and David don't see that they don't really have much of a chance to win unless they're all in the final three. Millennials are going to outnumber Gen-Xers on the jury and I don't see a Gen-Xer getting enough votes to win against any of the millennials left.

Actually, I think David has a good chance as long as he's not in the F3 with Jay.

If he's with Adam or Hannah, I think he has a really good chance. I don't know why I'm even accounting for Will. I just don't see him making the F3 or getting that many votes. 

Say hypothetically it's a F3 with Adam, Hannah, and David (only choosing this because it's two Millennials vs one Gen-X) David would probably have Jess, Ken, Zeke, Chris. I could see Will voting for him and Sunday too. Jay is a wild card due to his love/hate relationship with Adam. Taylor seemed to still have animosity with Adam and I don't think he and Hannah were close at all. Bret? I don't know. Michelle is another one who I don't know where she would go.

If Jay's in there though, then it'll be harder for David. 

If David does make it to the end with Ken, I think a lot people don't see Ken's game play. So now it depends on the third spot.

I think Hannah's been too all over the place.

Will? Eh, I guess he might pick up a few votes, but if anything, his "I want to make big moves" tantrum was NAGL.

At this point, the two who have the best chances to win are Jay and David.

Edited December 1, 2016 by JaggedLilPill

[blackwing]

22 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

So Adam didn't need to play his idol but they didn't show all the votes so nobody will ever know that Will did indeed make his big move (which, I mean, wasn't that big - flipping from the bottom of your alliance at nine is not bad play but it's not AMAZING). He was annoying me so much with all that talk about wanting credit and big moves and blah blah blah that I'm kind of glad, but I can't decide if this is brilliant for him or terrible. On one hand, the person he wanted out is gone, Adam's idol is gone and he can go back to his old alliance and swear on his grandma's life or whatever that he didn't flip, and they'll never know for sure. On the other, they probably won't believe him, and it's possible that neither will Ken/David/Hannah/Adam. 

Even though not all of the votes were shown, Jeff did show Will's vote.  Will's was the one where the E's in "Zeke" were written with a diagonal slant.  I don't see why the others wouldn't find out that he voted for Zeke.  If he wants to ingratiate himself with David's group, all he has to do is tell them that he voted for Zeke and he can prove it by saying his vote was the one with the slanted E's.  I'm sure the other members of the group could confirm that it wasn't their vote.

I've always wondered about handwriting on the votes.  You would think that after a while, people come to recognise each other's handwriting.  Unless they wanted to deliberately disguise their vote, and then I guess they could just use block letters?  But some contestants go as far as putting little drawings or distinctive touches on their votes deliberately so people will know how they voted.  I guess it all depends on how much the voter trusts the others, or vice versa, or something?

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure what to make of the time this show has devoted to Adam's mother. Are they focusing on this because Adam wins, or just because they're going to make a HUGE deal out of it on the reunion show? (Or both?)

Right now I think Jay has a pretty clear path to winning the whole thing. He seems to have fallen off everyone's radar and still has a HII.

It's odd that Bret, Sunday and David don't see that they don't really have much of a chance to win unless they're all in the final three. Millennials are going to outnumber Gen-Xers on the jury and I don't see a Gen-Xer getting enough votes to win against any of the millennials left. (Not so odd that Ken doesn't see this because - again- I don't think Ken understands how this game works.)

I've been curious about the Adam's mother thing too.  When was the last time the show devoted this much time about somebody's personal situation?  I know that Jeremy Collins mentioned in confessionals several times that his wife was pregnant, but I don't think we saw it to the extent we have seen Adam, have we?  At least I don't remember thinking it was that big of a deal.  But with Adam, we have gotten the ugly cry face multiple times, the ugly crying face confessional more than a few times, almost the entire family visit segment devoted to Adam and his brother talking about mom's treatment, etc.  I do wonder if this is an indication that he makes it to the finals, or something else.  

It's really interesting that eons ago, Jonny Fairplay invented "how's grandma?" / "she died" during the family visit in an effort to garner sympathy and hope that people would vote for him to win the million, because of his poor dead grandma.  But now, many seasons later, people like Jeremy and Adam seem to think that any kind of personal sympathy/sob story is going to make people want to vote them out because they think it makes them a tough opponent in the finals.

Regarding the final TC vote, I'm not sure if I agree.  At this point, the only "true" millenial left is Jay.  Adam and Hannah have gone over and joined the evil David's alliance.  You can be sure that Zeke is going to do his best to make sure anyone connected with David isn't going to win.  If Jay makes it to the finals, he wins easily.  If Bret or Sunday are there against any of David's crew, they probably win.

[peachmangosteen]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

You can be sure that Zeke is going to do his best to make sure anyone connected with David isn't going to win.  

I don't think so at all. If Zeke thinks David played the best game, and I think there's a decent chance he would think that especially if Jay isn't in the finals with David, then I think he would certainly vote for David. Zeke doesn't seem bitter at all and he seems to see it as a game and isn't holding any grudges.

[Jalyn]

The bit that actually had me annoyed was Zeke's comment to Will that the other side would use him for his vote and then discard him like they did to everyone else. 

Huh? Let's actually look at who is on jury:

Michelle and Taylor, who wanted to vote out Adam so you turned on them. David, Ken and Adam were not aligned with either of them. 

Chris, who you turned on when he decided to vote out David's close ally Jess. 

Jess, who was collateral damage to you turning on Hannah. (Granted, she had turned on you, but only because you made her choose between allies.)

So, who uses people for their votes and then discards them? Who is it that "realigns all of the time?"  

The only vote that you could say that that group turned on before they were reacting to someone coming after them was Paul - and only Jess (who is no longer there) turned against him. 

I hope that someone pointed that out and it was cut for time, otherwise people are just missing obvious arguments. (Kind of like last week. The problem there wasn't "should they have gone to rocks" but "how the hell were they not all scrambling to find a 6th vote so that it didn't come up?" Did anyone tell Will and Jay that Zeke blew up their game over the Adam vote? Or that he was the reason that everyone knows a) that Jay has an idol and b) Will will, at extremity, sell out his friends? Did Zeke even try to pull Adam over? Or consider a target that Adam could get behind?)

[weightyghost]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If Will says Ken is an arrogant prick I'm inclined to take him at his word, since Will has spent far more actual time with Ken than anyone just watching him on TV.

I'm sorry, but teenager Will who had been throwing a fit over being respected and involved in decision making, who was just 'talked down to' by Ken (aka questioned to figure out if he can be trusted and then essentially screwed him over)... I don't trust that opinion. I trust that in that moment, Ken was a dick to him, yes. But Will showed himself to be incredibly self absorbed as well (which in Survivor isn't necessarily a bad thing since they all have to be). 

I've been wary of editing for years on this show so this episode made me question everything - I assume Will has felt like this for awhile, but only shown now and it came off as whining. Ken wandering off from Jay/Zeke after blabbing about Will had remnants of being wanting to just blow things up and then walk away to let everyone eat themselves and let it fester, but with editing it just seemed stupid (which who knows, it may have just been, but he hasn't shown to walk away from an argument). Jess' face at tribal seemed to be a reaction to something said, not necessarily to her being introduced so it made her seem really bitchy. 

Who knows, I could just be over thinking everything and maybe everyone is an asshole. 

 

Also re: Ken and the daughter, from what I read on another side, seems like one night stand - left for Hawaii - found out years later that one nighter resulted in a daughter - came back to the mainland. So I can respect him for taking responsibility.

Edited December 1, 2016 by weightyghost

[MissEwa]

1 minute ago, blackwing said:

Even though not all of the votes were shown, Jeff did show Will's vote.  Will's was the one where the E's in "Zeke" were written with a diagonal slant.  I don't see why the others wouldn't find out that he voted for Zeke.  If he wants to ingratiate himself with David's group, all he has to do is tell them that he voted for Zeke and he can prove it by saying his vote was the one with the slanted E's.  I'm sure the other members of the group could confirm that it wasn't their vote.

I've always wondered about handwriting on the votes.  You would think that after a while, people come to recognise each other's handwriting.  Unless they wanted to deliberately disguise their vote, and then I guess they could just use block letters?  But some contestants go as far as putting little drawings or distinctive touches on their votes deliberately so people will know how they voted.  I guess it all depends on how much the voter trusts the others, or vice versa, or something?

The assumption, because they only showed four votes for Hannah, would be that Will voted for Zeke. I think he could argue that, and he could go into handwriting, and they'd 98% believe him. But you are talking about David, Ken, Hannah and Adam here. I like them all but they've all shown themselves to be a little on the paranoid side - that 2% isn't nothing, and if he does something sketchy next episode, that 2% could turn into something more. 

He could, on the other hand, go back to Sunday and Bret and Jay and swear that he didn't switch. And he doesn't know why they didn't show that last vote for Hannah but honestly he really really didn't. And they might not 100% believe him, but they'd want to believe him, and that might be enough. Or it might not, and he's sunk with both sides for even trying. 

It's an interesting position and I'm just curious to see how it affects his game. 

[blackwing]

15 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't think so at all. If Zeke thinks David played the best game, and I think there's a decent chance he would think that especially if Jay isn't in the finals with David, then I think he would certainly vote for David. Zeke doesn't seem bitter at all and he seems to see it as a game and isn't holding any grudges.

But he said that "I want to win the game almost as much as I want to see David lose", or something like that.  There was so much unnecessary personal animosity in that statement.  That statement didn't come out of Zeke respecting David's game.  That statement was along the same lines as the unnecessary personal attacks that both Brett and Zeke directed at David during the Jessica tribal council.

Juries on Survivor always seem to end up being way bitter.  I'm thinking about Reed on San Juan del Sur (a Blood vs Water season, won by one of the TAR Twinnies).  I think Zeke seems to be the kind of person that wants to make a similar memorable splash.  He's clearly aiming to play again, based on his televised exit interview comments, so needs to do something big to be remembered.

Edited December 1, 2016 by blackwing

[peachmangosteen]

I'm basing my thoughts on how Zeke would vote more so on his Ponderosa vid and exit interviews, so it's probably off topic here. Sorry!

[iMonrey]

Quote

I've always wondered about handwriting on the votes.  You would think that after a while, people come to recognise each other's handwriting.  Unless they wanted to deliberately disguise their vote, and then I guess they could just use block letters?  But some contestants go as far as putting little drawings or distinctive touches on their votes deliberately so people will know how they voted.  I guess it all depends on how much the voter trusts the others, or vice versa, or something?

I think the more interesting question is what happens after someone like Adam plays a HII because they must have to stop the cameras and re-arrange the votes in the urn. If nobody had played the idol, the votes would have come out "One for Hannah, one for Zeke, two for Hannah, two for Zeke, three for Hannah, three for Zeke," etc. But since the idol was played all four votes for Hannah came out first.

We're assuming Jeff is not told in advance that someone is playing an idol (although - who knows? - maybe they do have to tell him in advance for that very reason) and clearly the votes are arranged in a specific order for maximum "drama." 

I'm assuming Jeff can't just look down and see which votes are which in the urn, otherwise everyone who gets up to vote could look in there and see who the other target is. They must be instructed to place the votes crease-side up so nobody can see them when they put their own vote in the urn. Then Jeff goes off to "tally" the votes and he and the producers arrange them in the order they want to pull them out.

They must have to stop and re-arrange them when someone plays an idol. I think that would be funny to see. "Oh, you're playing an idol? OK hold on a sec you guys, I'll be right back."

I think if we were able to see outtakes from this show it would be horribly disillusioning. 

[Haleth]

That is an interesting point that maybe Probst deliberately did not show the final vote in order to keep everyone guessing whether or not Will flipped. Production should have made sure his actual ballot wasn't shown to the remaining survivors though.

[EvilApplesauce]

21 hours ago, Lingo said:

Ken? Ken??? Ken, don't do it you moron!!!! Ken? Ken! Ken! Ken Ken Ken! KEEEEEENNNNNNN!!!!!!!  ARGHGHGHHGHGH KEN!!!!

OMG so dumb. He did basically the exact same thing Jessica did before the tribe shuffle. The thing everyone mocked Jessica for doing. He just did the same thing really.

And some of you are STILL rooting for him to win? I don't get it. He's pretty but he ain't that pretty.

Well, I'm absolutely certain he's not winning anyway, just due to lack of screen time. As of last week I was pretty confident about him (and Will and Sunday) but this just seals it.

Adam "wasted" his idol, but I understand him doing it. It's a pivotal vote, he couldn't be certain about Will (especially after what Ken did), it's a good time. He's hoping that will give him a solid majority to the end.

Quoting because you're echoing how I feel about Ken. I'm actually surprised at the continued support that Ken is getting here, not that there's anything wrong with rooting for who you like! But like you said, Jessica made the same error in going back to Lucy with Ken's information, and she got dragged for it. Ken is pretty much dead to me as a player.

IMO Will is creepy as hell, and a flip-flopper, but there's something to be said about him comparing a conversation with Ken to having his fingernails and toenails ripped out. I was a little put off when Ken said: "It's good that you have integrity like me". It's cool to talk about yourself / praise yourself that way? But after the integrity talk, Ken threw Will under the bus and then just quietly walked away while Will had to deal with his alliance members ripping into him. Then Ken seemed oblivious (or maybe indifferent) to his own alliance members wondering wtf he blew up Will's game when Will could've been their 5th number. Does Ken realize that this episode alone doesn't bode well for his FTC speech?

[violet and green]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If Will says Ken is an arrogant prick I'm inclined to take him at his word, since Will has spent far more actual time with Ken than anyone just watching him on TV.

I can't find it to link to it, but Chris was quoted in an exit interview somewhere on here recently saying that Ken is a really, really nice guy. Chris has spent a lot more time than Will with Ken - and seeing Will get all toddler tanty stomping and shouting RESPECT ME, I am AN ADULT NOW, now I AM EIGHTEEN, I make the BIG MOVES! would make me want to be a teeny bit condescending towards him, too.

[violet and green]

7 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

You don't think Will's anger to Ken was justified?   

No.

[tvfanatic13]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I bid four.

Honestly, you know that loud CRASH in the middle of the episode?  That was Ken falling off my pedestal.  I thought he was ok but damn... no brains.  So his minority alliance has the good fortune of Will being willing to flip and Ken decides to treat it like he's interviewing Will for a job?  Will, who is trying to save Ken?  His stock sank like a rock here.  I'm surprised to see so many people still rooting for him.  

I'm on the lonely island of liking Will, though.  Like @simply me (who I think is actually just me sleep-posting), I didn't see immaturity.  I saw someone who understands the game and came to play to win.  There's nothing wrong with trying to dethrone a king in power.  That's the best kind of move for your resume, really, and bonus-- it's good for viewers, too.

My least favorite thing about the loved one ep is knowing I'll have to come read 40 or so indignant posts about how ridiculous their emotions are.  And that probably 5 years ago I was saying the same thing.  Now I get it.  They have NOTHING from their home life out there... no coffee, toothbrush, clean clothes, food, electronics, books, pets, job, sleep... nothing.  Going to college isn't like that.  

Oh I think they do.  I think that's why Jay looked so offended and quickly butted in that he wasn't doing it.  

Do we ever see any of them in the water, ever?  Isn't it Fiji?  Why no water challenges?  They all look pretty filthy to me.  

Or himself.  

I kept thinking Chris looks like Tormund.  

There have been several water challenges. Have I misunderstood your post?

[Sarahsmile416]

21 hours ago, weightyghost said:

I'm not sure if anyone is really rooting for him, just rooting for him to stick around to look at. I don't think anyone is expecting him to win (except with those who are playing lazier than he is)

He didn't seem offended to me, just confused (since he probably was dead set on thinking it was David). I can think of numerous people who overreacted to being voted out. I mean, not many get told beforehand but plenty of men throw hissyfits. Ken just had a mental break with his information. I can understand how all logic went out the window at that point, I doubt if Will said it was Hannah he would have done anything. Maybe he was trying to get the other side to vote Will? Who knows. It was strange. 

While I don't like anyone on the other side, I'd actually be fine with Jay winning. He's the dumb surfer like Taylor was, but I actually think he's relatively smart and with it. 

Will, I get you want respect. You are technically an adult. However, you are still a child. You stamp around wanting to be respected and whine about no one trusting you to make decisions (that's not because of your immaturity, it's because of who you're playing with). You're not helping yourself. 

Eh, they were all begging, Probst mentioned it. Some more outwardly (Ken and Adam were both vocal/physical) but they all mostly were. Pointing to yourself isn't exactly cause of shame, there have been people in the past crying and verbally begging to get chosen. 

*Cough...Shane...cough cough*

[BetyBee]

I sobbed along with all of these people at the loved ones visit.  My sister is battling lung cancer now and it was especially painful to see Adam and his brother discussing their Mom's situation.  I loved how gentle Adam's brother was with him, and how encouraging.  I was also touched that Jay invited him along despite their issues.  I think there are some nice people this season and that is a welcome change from...oh say, the Dan Foley season.  I'm not rooting for just one person.  I'd be okay with Jay, Adam, David or Ken winning.  Okay, Ken's not going to win, but I'd like to look at him for as long as possible.  Not really okay with Bret, Sunday or Hannah, or Will, but I guess I could live with it.  Especially since I don't think it's likely to happen.  

[Rachel RSL]

Quote

Eh, they were all begging, Probst mentioned it. Some more outwardly (Ken and Adam were both vocal/physical) but they all mostly were. Pointing to yourself isn't exactly cause of shame, there have been people in the past crying and verbally begging to get chosen. 

Upon rewatching it, Ken was pointing to himself, Adam had his hands together making that praying/ begging motion and Brett said out loud "Jay. Please!"  So, yeah, they were all begging, not just Ken.

[Lamb18]

Before I read the comments I have to say: Ken, you dummy!

[pamplemousse]

I'm surprised that people are writing Ken off so completely now. He panicked and was confused and made a mistake, big deal. People do that all the time on this show. He didn't know Will was trying to "save him" because he didn't know until Will told him that his name was even thrown out there and Will was not actually trying to save him, he was just trying to get rid of Zeke so he could have BIG MOVE on his resume. Doesn't seem like Ken and Will had much of a connection or relationship or even interaction at all up until this episode when Ken was talking to Will. It makes sense that he'd go to Jay, someone he had a pretty tight relationship with (or so he thought), and ask him if it was true since Jay was someone he trusted/the only person he trusted who knew what was going on in Zeke's group. Ken had no reason to trust what Will was saying and he has a better relationship with Jay. It is arrogant of him to not think about how doing this would impact the rest of his alliance members (but he's certainly not the first person to make a move without thinking about how it could mess with their alliance members) but I don't think Ken actually thought Jay was going to turn right around and tell everything to Zeke. Ken's real mistake imo was trusting Jay to keep it between the two of them, not in not believing Will and keeping his mouth shut.

Plenty of people can give the benefit of the doubt to jerkoffs Brett and Zeke for their behavior at tribal council last week and speculate that David earned their scorn and it was just edited out, but can't give Ken the benefit of the doubt for going to Jay and asking him about what Will said. Um, ok. And no, it's not because we're all blinded by the pretty, if I'm going to be tmi Michaela and jury Jess are more my speed. I just don't think Ken did something he can't come back from. Like someone else pointed out, this very season people have made some really bad moves and ended up fine (Adam, in particular). I don't think he can win if he's sitting at the end with Jay and David, but then again, I don't think any of the remaining players could against one or both of those two. IMO he's played a good under the radar game up until this point and then made a really boneheaded move. Par for the course for most of the players this season (and in a lot of other seasons too) and several of those players are still in the game. 

[SlackerInc]

28 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

Plenty of people can give the benefit of the doubt to jerkoffs Brett and Zeke for their behavior at tribal council last week and speculate that David earned their scorn and it was just edited out, but can't give Ken the benefit of the doubt for going to Jay and asking him about what Will said. Um, ok.

I certainly didn't give any such benefit of the doubt to Bret or Zeke.  They were jerks, absolutely.  And I like David: he's one of my favorites.  Furthermore, I defended Ken repeatedly in past weeks.  Other people were calling him dumb, or bad at the game, and I argued with them.

But I'm sorry, it's over.  As soon as he made this ridiculous, panicky, emotional blunder, I facepalmed...and, notice, so did everyone in his alliance.  It was truly cringeworthy.

I don't like having to eat crow about a player I previously defended, but sometimes you just gotta face the music.

[Jobiska]

Yes, as far as I noticed, Jay was the only one to go under the log on his back, and he won.  I think it's overall the better strategy, especially if you are as lean as Jay and are pretty sure you've dug a big enough hole.  But I disagree that it is far and away better than the other method.  One commenter said that it would be easy to keep digging on your back if you still needed more sand moved, and I think that would be supremely awkward and would not move much sand very fast at all.  

So better, yes, generally, so amazingly better that everyone is an out and out idiot except for Jay, not really in my opinion.

At one point someone (Adam? Zeke?) had the rope looped around their neck and I thought it looked quite dangerous.  I'm glad nobody strangled themselves.

My brother, especially as he ages, has skin on his arms that tans oddly and unevenly--his wife tells him to "scrub that dirt off!" and it turns out it's actually his skin--ouch!  I think Hannah's "dirt" along the side of her neck looks a lot like his mottled tan and may not be all dirt.  However, I think a lot of them are dirty a lot of the time.  I'm also thinking that it's not that they're all disgusting pigs but maybe the Fiji dirt is just clingier than in some prior locations.

I found myself assessing each loved one as they ran out to see if they'd be good for Blood v. Water (assuming they'd all be available).  After some time for grieving passes, I think I'd really like to see Adam and brother.  I think unless Jay goes down in flames, he and pretty sis are a lock for such a season.  I saw enough of Sunday's husband on their Renovation Realities stint (not that he's horrible, just uninteresting to me).

I agree with those who find the family visit tears understandable in starvation/sleep deprivation/always doubting everyone around you mode, and will add that, especially with this particular crew, the tears feed off each other.  It would probably not look good to be the only "meh, I'm cool, I'm stronger than these emotional people" player.

It is my observation that post-merge, they do not re-hide idols found pre-merge.  David played one pre-merge, and found a re-hidden tribal beach one pre-merge.  Adam found one pre-merge and has played it.  Jay's was found pre-merge and he still has it.  

If, say, there'd been a clue at the merge feast, maybe choking you as you drink out of your soda bottle like in a previous season (I think I fixate overmuch on choking hazards), and an idol found from that clue and played, then I think they would rehide it if it was not past the time no idols can be played.



 

[lids]

I don't think Ken went to Jay about what Will told him because he was confused or didn't believe him. I also don't think Ken is dumb. Ken clearly says after Will tells him he is the one to go: "That doesn't make any sense." Then, "I'm not ready to go home yet."

He marched right over to Jay, put the target square on Will's back and then got the heck up out of there while chaos descended. This appears to be Ken's gameplay/strategy. And possibly how he lives in life. He's good at being the guy behind the guy but I don't think he knows how to be the guy in the spotlight. People behind the scenes can always moralize and make backseat driver comments about what the leader should have done, but they don't have to really scrutinize themselves. Ken's been like that since the beginning when he wondered out loud in a confessional why the tribe wasn't trying to make him the leader. Meanwhile he wasn't making any big moves to be the leader.

All in all, Ken's just selfish like most people. When his back is up against the wall he thinks about himself first and the whole mellow hipster glow just fads. I neither like him nor dislike him. I do think Jay is cuter than him though. Sorry not sorry.

[green]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I've been curious about the Adam's mother thing too.  When was the last time the show devoted this much time about somebody's personal situation?  I know that Jeremy Collins mentioned in confessionals several times that his wife was pregnant, but I don't think we saw it to the extent we have seen Adam, have we?  At least I don't remember thinking it was that big of a deal.  But with Adam, we have gotten the ugly cry face multiple times, the ugly crying face confessional more than a few times, almost the entire family visit segment devoted to Adam and his brother talking about mom's treatment, etc.  I do wonder if this is an indication that he makes it to the finals, or something else. 

I'm guessing, no spoilers, I don't know any of that stuff at all.  But we do know his mother did die within 48 hours of the final tribal council.  And we know production monitors situations like this closely.  I'm starting to think all this attention of Adam and his mother is to prepare us the viewers for Adam leaving the game a few days before the end when the call comes in "get him home quickly."   Again just a guess.

32 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

I'm surprised that people are writing Ken off so completely now. He panicked and was confused and made a mistake, big deal. People do that all the time on this show. He didn't know Will was trying to "save him" because he didn't know until Will told him that his name was even thrown out there and Will was not actually trying to save him, he was just trying to get rid of Zeke so he could have BIG MOVE on his resume. Doesn't seem like Ken and Will had much of a connection or relationship or even interaction at all up until this episode when Ken was talking to Will. It makes sense that he'd go to Jay, someone he had a pretty tight relationship with (or so he thought), and ask him if it was true since Jay was someone he trusted/the only person he trusted who knew what was going on in Zeke's group. Ken had no reason to trust what Will was saying and he has a better relationship with Jay. It is arrogant of him to not think about how doing this would impact the rest of his alliance members (but he's certainly not the first person to make a move without thinking about how it could mess with their alliance members) but I don't think Ken actually thought Jay was going to turn right around and tell everything to Zeke. Ken's real mistake imo was trusting Jay to keep it between the two of them, not in not believing Will and keeping his mouth shut.

I'm sorry but I see Ken being just plain stupid Survivor-playing-wise.  Their alliance is down 4 to 5.  Will pops up wanting to join them so he can make his big move.  You don't piss on a gift like that.  It is all about numbers.  Can Ken not do simple math?  You should be flattering the kid and feeding his ego and doing everything to assure he won't change his mind.  Not giving the kid the third degree.  Geesh!

Of course Will is doing it for himself.  Everyone does everything for themselves on Survivor.  Or should.  But his big move benefits Ken more than anyone else and Ken is the one that questions Will like he is auditioning him to be accepted as a human being by Ken.  Hello, take his vote and celebrate you dummy.

If Ken doesn't believe Will's intel that he Ken is the target than consult your alliance -- especially David -- to see how you can maybe double check Will's golden intel.  Even if not true they don't have the numbers without Will so even if it was someone else in his alliance, Ken's group still has the short straw without Will.  But instead Ken runs off to Jay who is in the enemy alliance because he is his fishing buddy or something?!?!  What the hell?!?!

Ken nearly blew up not only Will's game but the future of everyone in Ken's alliance. 

And Will was right to be royally pissed.  He was up front why he wanted to switch sides.  He provided important intel.  Then Ken played rat fink and outed Will to his old alliance when keeping it secret that Will had flipped was imperative.

Will isn't mature in general but he did show maturity on one issue.  Instead of taking revenge on Ken on the spot he controlled his emotions and played Survivor and not Personal Revenge.  Something a lot of Survivor players have failed to do in the past so kudos to that element of Will's "move"  I doubt if the roles were reversed that Ken would have controlled himself as well.  In fact given his lectures on integrity I can guess he wouldn't.  He would have gone all self-righteous on a person betraying him yet here we have Will be the more mature of the two players.

I mean Will telling him his name had come up wasn't Will betraying Ken.  He was trying to help him.  And yes for Will's benefit as it should be.  But it would have benefit Ken more in the short term.

[ByaNose]

Every exit interview has similar views on Ken. Basically, he's from another planet and no one could work with him. It's not that he's a horrible person but there isn't much going on. And, what is going on (from Ken) is all about your honor and your heart and your mind. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[violet and green]

50 minutes ago, Jobiska said:

My brother, especially as he ages, has skin on his arms that tans oddly and unevenly--his wife tells him to "scrub that dirt off!" and it turns out it's actually his skin--ouch!  I think Hannah's "dirt" along the side of her neck looks a lot like his mottled tan and may not be all dirt.

I think she's got natural sideburn growth/facial hair. That's what it's always looked like to me, anyway.

Oh, you're talking about neck...  Her cheeks from near her ears down to her jawline always look kind of...hairy...to me.

[SVNBob]

10 hours ago, weightyghost said:

Also re: Ken and the daughter, from what I read on another side, seems like one night stand - left for Hawaii - found out years later that one nighter resulted in a daughter - came back to the mainland. So I can respect him for taking responsibility.

Sounds like Taylor and his soon-to-be offspring, minus a few years.

[SlackerInc]

One could argue that Will erred by telling Ken he was the target.  Of what use was that information, really?

[Nashville]

On 11/30/2016 at 8:15 PM, ByaNose said:

And, everyone was surprised by the idol....especially Hannah. LOL!!

Hannah frequently acts surprised by oxygen molecules moving around, so no shocker there.

 

20 hours ago, green said:

I don't think Adam playing the idol was bad gameplay at all.  After Ken blew things up totally for their alliance I think it was a wise move not to trust Will because even Will said his emotions wanted revenge so who knew if his game side would win out.  Zeke is a great manipulator too.  So better safe than sorry so I think Adam was smart to make the play.

Not a big Adam fan, but I agree.  I don't recall any discussion about Adam's super duper fancy X-ray vote-reading glasses - so unless anybody can present some valid rationale whereby Adam should have 100% faith in Will following through with a Zeke vote, any/all noise about Adam's idol play being "wasted" is simply Monday morning quarterbacking.

 

13 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I wish Adam just burned that reward adv. instead of giving it to Jay :/

Actually, I thought that was pretty smart.  In terms of overall strategic gameplay, this "advantage" is anything but:

• It's purely reward-oriented, so it's not going to advance anybody's strategic game position.
• Exercise of the "advantage" is guaranteed to piss off at least one potential Jury vote (the person whose Reward you stole), and maybe more (your victim's allies/friends).
• If everybody knows you have the "advantage", paranoia about its potential play enlarges the target on your back to at least some degree.

IMHO dumping this white elephant on somebody - and letting everybody else KNOW you dumped it - is the smartest play.

[hincandenza]

On a show like Survivor especially, information is the currency of the realm. And the way some people play Survivor, you can clearly see why there are so many people who go deeply into debt spending way beyond their means on impulse purchases.

Quick thought: watching the immunity challenge, couldn't they have instead pushed the two handle things together, or was that quietly against the rules?  I'm thinking the tension of those handles is what you're having to overcome by pulling outward (and maintain force/friction on the bar), but that same tension would make them great for pushing in on the rod- and probably require a lot less energy.

I think it was simplyme a few pages back who wrote an excellent defense of Will; I do feel for him, and while I'm more than twice his age- and then some :'( - I can imagine it would be frustrating if everyone treated you like a little kid, as Sunday so ungracefully demonstrated at tribal.  And he did have quite a look on his face when Adam pulled out his idol, because he knew that not only does he once again look like a non-entity, it turns out his potential alliance just wasted a perfectly good HII that no one knew about.  He has little reason to side with David's crew now, except as an obvious feint to blindside them.

This all falls on Ken; whoever linked the Picard double-face palm, please know that I was laughing hysterically when I opened that.  As I'm rooting for the David alliance, I think that might have been my exact reaction when Ken went marching over to Zeke.  Lord, that was a stupid play, every part of it from the walking over to the leaving just before he might actually get something useful out his idiocy.  Just think how much differently everything is now if he doesn't: Will isn't the visible tiebreaker everyone is wooing, they trust his flip-flop, Zeke goes home, Adam keeps his secret idol, there's suddenly a new dominant alliance, and Will gets credit for a big move and might be good to use for a couple of votes to remove the likes of Jay or Brett.

It's why I'm kind of torn on Adam playing that HII.  On the one hand, he and Hannah guessed correctly who was being targeted and he now has welded tight his position in a 4-person alliance out of the top 8.  So long as they can corral Ken there should be nothing that can break apart David/Ken/Hannah/Adam.  On the other hand, he just signaled to Will that he wasn't trusted- even though as Will rightly sputtered, it was he that went to them- while also letting Will plausibly claim to Jay/Brett/Sunday that he voted Hannah to create a 4-4 deadlock at the next tribal... with Jay holding a HII.  I think (even knowing how the vote did go down as I type this) he might have considered putting faith in Will for this vote.  If it pays off, you've got him in your 5 person alliance likely for another crucial week; if it doesn't, you are still holding a HII and could potentially bring over a Sundae, Brett, or Will for a blindside vote in the next TC.  But I guess he'd figured it'd be safer and better overall to create an airtight 4-person that could get him to at least top 6 or 5 before the fractures show, and on the whole that's not a bad plan at all.

I think it's pretty abundantly clear now that the two people left who really deserve to be in the final TC are David and Jay.  I'd be fine with either of them winning on merit, and disappointed if it's anyone else except maybe Adam, who could make some big moves between now and then to overcome his early fumbling and paranoid self-sabotage.  David has been the little engine that could, and everyone vocally respects his solid gameplay; if he makes the finale he can lay claim to a lot of key moves, several friends on the jury, not to mention two big idol plays where both times he played it for someone else which speaks to risk-taking, loyalty, and leadership.  Meanwhile, Jay has quietly exploded since the bromance was torn asunder, and is in a ridiculously strong position as well; he's a challenge monster right now and no one, including Jeff, has sad one word about it.  He's got a great narrative, challenge wins, several people on the jury who are former allies who were voted out by the "other" side, and a great social game.  He really shined in this episode on that front, especially with Adam (who could be a key jury vote).

Which leads me to my last thought: the advantage in the game on day 36.  I had a thought tonight that what if the advantage is something big and related final TC like the ability to remove one person from the jury.  It'd be a hell of a twist, although I suspect the producers would never tweak the "sanctity" of the final vote; I think day 36 is top 4 or 5, so more likely it's an advantage in a late immunity challenge, or an extra vote at tribal that night.  However, I can imagine an amazing scenario where it's David and Jay at the final TC, and David ekes out a win because he was able to remove Taylor from the jury on day 36 where we get the beautiful scene of Taylor grumpily having to leave the tribal council area as he's no longer a member of the jury.

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, green said:

I'm guessing, no spoilers, I don't know any of that stuff at all.  But we do know his mother did die within 48 hours of the final tribal council.  And we know production monitors situations like this closely.  I'm starting to think all this attention of Adam and his mother is to prepare us the viewers for Adam leaving the game a few days before the end when the call comes in "get him home quickly."   Again just a guess.

For his sake I hope this is true.  I also haven't read any spoilers but this scenario would help solve the dilemma of too many players left with not enough episodes.  If he does leave early it guarantees he'd be invited to play again in another season.

[DEL901]

16 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

Ken didn't speak in TC? I am not sure if Ken screwed up his game or not, the Idol went to waste, Will did vote for Zeke.

We don't know that Ken didn't speak.  Tribal councils can last hours but we see about 5 minutes.

[riley702]

On 11/30/2016 at 11:45 PM, MattDuffysCat said:

Ken: "I don't just have a 5 minute conversation and hop into bed with anybody"

 

14 hours ago, weightyghost said:

Also re: Ken and the daughter, from what I read on another side, seems like one night stand - left for Hawaii - found out years later that one nighter resulted in a daughter - 

Whoopsie, looks like he does! Or at least did. Maybe that's why he's so adamant about it now.

Edited December 2, 2016 by riley702

[weightyghost]

12 minutes ago, riley702 said:

Whoopsie, looks like he does! Or at least did.

Hey, sometimes dinner can last an hour.

[waving feather]

What's so funny about the Ken situation was that he didn't even wait 5 minutes before calling Jay to talk after he came back with Will. He immediately did that when they walked back in. Was he purposely trying to intimidate Will? I don't get it. If he's voted out, I really hope they ask him that question because what is his strategy behind that or is there even a strategy? Or was he just trying to create chaos? But at the expense of his alliance?

ETA: I may wrong and maybe he did wait "5 minutes" before approaching Jay after his conversation with Will. Hard to tell with the editing. Heh.

Edited December 2, 2016 by waving feather

[Rachel RSL]

I still want to know the stuff that's none of my business. Like why it took 4 years for this woman to contact him. Was he in hiding? Did she need Maury Povich to confirm who the father was? Enquiring (nosy) minds want to know!

 

Quote

I may wrong and maybe he did wait "5 minutes" before approaching Jay after his conversation with Will. Hard to tell with the editing. Heh.

I think he really did grab Jay like the second they got back. At least that's what Will said and I believe him because Ken had pretty much lost his mind at that point so discretion wasn't his main priority.  

Edited December 2, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[waving feather]

9 hours ago, green said:

I mean Will telling him his name had come up wasn't Will betraying Ken.  He was trying to help him.  And yes for Will's benefit as it should be.  But it would have benefit Ken more in the short term.

ITA that Will was trying to help Ken and gain his trust but Will is also a bit naive in thinking that the only way to build trust is to share information. Since intel is vital in this game, Will should have thought twice when is the right moment to share. This is not the first time, either. He goes about the wrong way sometimes to gain approval / trust from people (e.g. telling Zeke about Jay's idol to get into Zeke's good books).

So, while Ken was silly for running to the other side and confronting them about it (I literally LOL-ed when he was like "Look at me" to Jay like he was some scorned lover), Will could have avoided all this trouble by keeping his mouth shut a bit more.

Another funny moment was when Ken told his alliance what he did and their reactions were priceless. David, the ever diplomatic guy, can't even hide his eyeroll and disbelief. This episode had a lot of unintentional humor thanks to Ken.

Edited December 2, 2016 by waving feather

[simplyme]

Actually, since Will's vote for Zeke was shown, David's alliance will be able to work out that he voted for Zeke. That is, assuming the two other people whose Zeke votes were shown recognized their votes and the two people whose Zeke votes were not shown know they did not see their own vote.

ETA: Or, as someone earlier said, Will can just say his was the Zeke vote with the slanty Es and the rest will be all "Well, that wasn't mine..." It just dawned on me what that poster was saying. Hyuk hyuk. Need caffeine. Sigh.

Edited December 2, 2016 by simplyme

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, weightyghost said:

Hey, sometimes dinner can last an hour.

...and let's not forget dessert!  ;>